Jack Abramoff - Former US lobbyist HARDtalk


Jack Abramoff - Former US lobbyist

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In the lead-up to November's presidential election in the US,

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grips on the right and left are sounding the alarm at the influence

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on money on US politics. Outguess today knows a lot about that. At

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the height of his career he made billions as a career lobbyist in

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Washington. His fall from grace was dramatic, seeing him publicly

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disgraced and imprisoned for fraud and bribery. A free man once again,

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Jack Abramoff now says he is a reformed man, lobbying to correct

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what he describes as a corrupt system where he says his behaviour

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was, and continues, to be commonplace. Is he trying to make

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amends for his past or trying to put the planes on -- blame on

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Jack Abramoff, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Time magazine famously

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described you as the man who bought Washington. You were known as the

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most powerful lobbyist in Washington, hey man who could get

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legislation introduced, changed or even scrapped. A man who was making

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millions and millions of dollars, but then you went to jail. Now you

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live a modest lifestyle with your family. Do you live the old -- miss

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the odd live? I probably miss some of the old action, but I don't miss

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it enough to try it again. You were born in New Jersey, you were raised

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in California to a father who worked for a credit card company.

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As a youngster, he worked for the college Republicans. You made quite

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a name for yourself there. Why did you choose to leave active politics

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and eventually choose lobbying as your career? I have left after

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serving as head of the College Republicans and then moving on to

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President Reagan's grassroots lobby on Capitol Hill. I left politics to

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become a movie producer. I spent about eight-ten years producing

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films and re-entered politics as a poll at -- lobbyist. Lobbying is

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part of the political scene. I spent about a decade after I re-

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entered being a lobbyist. Why? Why choose lobbying? I wanted to get

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back in. I missed politics when I was making films. I missed the

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Washington scene of and I didn't feel that the appropriate entry

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point was through a campaign or running for something. The

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opportunity came up through a friend of mine to join one of the

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lobbying firms. I took on the responsibilities of helping clients

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in their political battles. That is how I got back in. You describe, in

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your book about capital punishment, your life as a lobbyist. In the

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early years, you do sense a kind of a pride or excitement that perhaps

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you still feel for your formal work. When you talk about setting up team

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Abramoff you say it, our team eventually included some of the

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greatest minds in the policy business, as well as some of the

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brothers, tough first street-smart killers who ever walked he also of

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well-heeled war films -- law firms. That sounds like a script from one

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of your films. I wish it was, they might have done better in the box

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office. Unfortunately it was a real life. I don't necessarily more of

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those days, but I try to describe it and describe the feelings that I

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have. They were feelings of exhilaration. Our idea of a

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successful day was obliterating our clients' enemies. Unfortunately

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that is the modus operandi that we had. We were constantly engaged in

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political battles. When we won and we would go in to win very

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thoroughly, we were exhilarated, we were delighted. When we last, we

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only lost once. Described last the lifestyle as a lobbyist. To quote

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Time magazine again, they describe you as the flamboyant power broker

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starts on junkets around the world, entertain them in Washington. You

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do not deny this in your book, do you? That is indeed the lifestyle

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of an active lobbyist. Lobbying is really two things. One is access

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and the second is persuasion. The access in Washington often comes

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with purveying and conveying a financial benefits to the lawmakers

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and their staff, the people who are public servants. It includes

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playing golf, travel, meals and political contributions. Of that

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activity I was probably at the razor's edge. I did and overdid

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everything I could to maintain the access that the 40s -- 40 lobbyists

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that work with me within Congress. In the book there is a feeling of

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inevitability about your demo in a ute did not realise your actions.

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You said, I never contemplated the payments made to Congress were

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really just bribes, but they were. Can we really believe that you,

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such a successful career man, didn't realise that what you were

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doing was wrong? I will go even further. I think most people still

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engaged in the system had not come to the epiphany that I have come to.

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People involved in Washington in terms of making campaign

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contributions to public servants or providing them meals or whatever

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they are giving to them do not feel that they are bribing them. They

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feel that is the way business is done, do they are engaged in

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relationships with them. They do not really come to the conclusions

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that I am the came to when it was all over. In the midst of it all I

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didn't think that this was bribery. I am not certain had I come to that

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conclusion, as I should have, I might not have treated it as a

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serious notion. That is the big problem here. That is one of the

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problems in terms of fixing the system. People feel that it is OK

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and Perth at the find to do these kind of things. They are not being

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immoral and they continue to do them. Let's have a look at what you

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did do, it eventually you. You admitted guilt on a number of

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charges, including fraud, bribery and tax evasion. But grabbed the

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headlines was your relationship with a number of Native American

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tribes are you admitted to defrauding. What did they hire you

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to do? I was hired by the tribes to do two things. One was to protect

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their interests in Washington, which we did. I was also hired to

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protect their interests in their individual states. I should note

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that what I played guilty to and what I was guilty of was not

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revealing to the clients that I was sharing in the property of the

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companies I was brought in to work with. I think my relationship with

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the tribes has been blown out of proportion in the media. That was

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specifically what I played too. Let's have a look at that some of

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managed -- money. In a report in 2006, it said you and your business

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parte collected about $66 million from six native American tribes

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between 2001 and 2003. That deserves a headline. That is a huge

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amount of money. First of all, be paid -- committee report was

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extremely inaccurate. The sum was actually less than what we were

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paid by more than six tribes. The efforts that we engage in were

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extremely active political battles. Many of them cost several million

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dollars each time. We engaged in them to save $6.8 billion worth of

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their revenue and worth of their income and value. At the end of the

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day, I believe the tribes filled, the people I worked for, felt that

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we did indeed do a fine job for them. What I did do that was wrong

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and what I have served time for and played guilty to was taking away

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from them the right to make a decision as to whether engage us

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based on the full facts. What I didn't do was inform them properly

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but I was in fact been compensated by companies that are recommended

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to them. He described how you believe the tribes filled. A member

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of the tribal council in Michigan said you defrauded his stride out

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of millions of dollars. He said families and children suffered much

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pain because of this man. He said, you left a dark stain across...

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me at least put some context in this. He was part of the very

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opposition in the tribe that remove the tribal council I worked for. He

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did everything he could to remove them from the tried let alone the

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tribal council. He brought his own lobbyists in. He paid them in many

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cases more than what we were paid. The problem is that their array lot

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of science to this. A -- there are a lot of sides to this. I am not

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saying that I did not do things that were wrong. I have tried to

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focus on the things I actually did wrong. You say that you always did

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your best for your clients and that you were very sincere in that. The

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e-mails revealed between you and Mike Scanlon not a very high

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opinion that you held off those Native American tribes. In March

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2002, you referred to them as those effing sad chips. You said they

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played stupid and referred to them as morons. I sent 850,000 e-mails.

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I was a very rough player. I hope I have changed myself in the eight

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years I had been in this process. What the committee did not pull out

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with the mouse I had sent about everybody. I was a very rough

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player. It was not just about my clients that I had spoken roughly

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about. I am ashamed about it does e-mails and I am sorry I sent them.

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I am sorry that I send e-mails to my wife about how kids being morons.

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I was not careful to be, as everyone should be, aware of the

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fact that you could wind up reading your e-mails on the front page of

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the paper. I am terribly sorry about those e-mails. They are a

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small part of the effort and should reflect a small part of my

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relationship to the tribes. None of the positive e-mails that I sent it

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ever came out. We will move on. You say you're sorry. Are you sorry in

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general about how you treated the tribes? That I used sorry for that?

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Have used sensory? I am sorry exactly for what I did that was

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wrong. What I did wrong was that I didn't inform the tribes that I was

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sharing the profits of the companies are recommended. I am

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certainly not sorry for winning every effort on their behalf. I am

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not sorry for working day and night on their behalf. I'm not sorry for

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the efforts are made to improve their relationships on Capitol Hill

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and elsewhere. People who asked me to be sorry for things I didn't do

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it, I'm going to be very disappointing to them. I did plenty

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wrong it and plenty to be sorry for, but I'm not going to be sorry for

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things I didn't do. You owe the tribes money. Tribes and others.

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But the tribes more than $20 million. Tom Rogers, the trouble

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advocate who did much of the ground were to expose your work, says,

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we're not asking for tens of millions of dollars, we want to

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atonement. You cannot have true redemption without due atonement.

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His issue should go to the poorest reservation in the country and

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asked to work with the elders and the children they have, without a

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camera crew of reporters. Ironically, Mr Rogers, who was a

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rival lobbyist to last and was defeated by us, his suggestion was

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something I asked to do at the beginning of this. I wanted to go

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to a reservation to work and I was turned down. The fact is, the

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efforts that we engaged in a vet about a decade at the time I was a

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lobbyist did more than could -- more good than harm. We prevented

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them from losing billions and billions of dollars in federal

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taxation and egregious federal legislation to take over the tribes.

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We were at time solely responsible for that. Will be paid and that?

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People like him have their opinions. Some of them have agendas. I

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certainly apologise to the people I have offended. But will be paid

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about? I am trying. A how much have you pay them back so far? I am just

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out of prison and felons did exactly have all the financial

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opportunities that one would have. You are paid for your speaking

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engagements. I am and portions of that money goes to the restitution

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that I hope. Everything that I earn, every dollar that I own and every

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dollar that I spend, is overseen by the Justice Department. I don't

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think people have to worry that I'm screwing money away. I wish I were

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able to, but I am not. And dedicated to paying back the

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There are others who question the sincerity of your remorse. In your

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books and public speaking. For example, a former Washington Post

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journalist, he writes, reading his book we're left with a odd mixture

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of chanted admission and score- settling. Geoffrey Smith has part

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of an agenda. You have to understand, people have been

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involved in this for 8-10 years who are on one side or the other. He

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actually spent time writing articles about me in the Washington

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Post. He was part of the team that got the bullet surprise. They were

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very offended that part of their story was wrong. -- Pulitzer Prize.

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It is hard for me to respond to all of these allegations, some of them

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are absolutely baseless. In terms of my book being score-settling, I

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invite anyone who reads my book to tell me where I settle scores. Some

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people criticise me for not bringing out enough detail about

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things that people did. I just wanted to tell the story of what

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happened. I wanted to tell America what is still going on and how I

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did it so we can find a way of fixing fee system. If I can ask you,

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your faith is very important to you. You write about it a lock. It is

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evident from the personal choices business you were in and dedicated

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to, you did not write, you did not telephone, you did not send e-mails

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on the Sabbath. How did your behaviour sit with your religious

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faith? I strive to be religious. Like anyone who strives to reach a

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higher standard, I am also a sinner. I'm not a saint. It is a struggle

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between the angels and the apes. Being pulled down into the mark and

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Maya, rising up to more ethereal behaviour. I have had troubles or

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my life. I will have them for the rest of my life. How does it make

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you feel when a leading rabbi on the Jewish religion, a professor at

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the University, after he pleaded guilty in 2006 he described you as

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a blot on the religious world. -- after you. He said you were an

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embarrassment to Judaism. I do not know who that man is. That is not

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the statement of an Orthodox Jew. To say such a thing against a

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fellow Jew. Especially one who is trying to do penance. I do not know

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who he is and I do not think I need to comment about him. When you were

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earning millions of dollars, he gave a lot of money to charity. You

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say you are giving 80% of your income to good causes and to help

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people. -- you were. You describe in your first job interview, you

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could never fight for something you did not believe in. I would not do

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it for all the money in the world. Could you stand there and say you

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have stayed true to that? Yes, I can. I did not take on one caused

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that I did not believe him. I turned down many that were quite

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lucrative. Would you say the lobbying business has changed since

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you were operating? Not really. There are some changes on the

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margins. The modus operandi is pretty much the same. They have

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more hurdles to get around as a consequence of my scandal. For the

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most part the system is intact. After the Reform Act of 2006 was

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introduced, you have been pretty scathing about the reforms. I have

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not been skating. I have said they do not go far enough. They do not

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do what is necessary. What is necessary to read out is corruption,

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the corruption I was involved in, is to sever the link between

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lobbyists and the public servants. We are working to push the ball

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further down the court. But I believe they got what they thought

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they could get at the time. Everything proposed in Washington

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DC has got to go through a congress whose own members are looking to

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the future of becoming lobbyists. They will look very carefully at

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changing roles that will benefit them later. -- rules. When you were

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sentenced, the judge said you have corrupted the political process and

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deprived the public of the honest services of their own public

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officials in the legislative and executive branch. You say you were

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not alone. I do not think any sensible person could say that. I

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anticipated, I was part of a system. -- participated. There has been a

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letter to the Daily congressional newsletter, do not paint as all

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with the brush. The majority do not go to jail for it. I agree with

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that. I say that everywhere. Most lobbyists are doing just fine. 99.9

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%, I do not think that is right. But I would say 90% are behaving

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properly. There are 30,000 lobbyists in Washington DC. Let's

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