Leonid Kozhara - Foreign Policy Advisor to the Ukrainian President HARDtalk

with pleading on the brain. -- bleeding. It is time for

HARDtalk. Ukraine has just held parliamentary

elections. A cause for celebration, the flowering of democracy in a

former Soviet republic? Not if you read the reports of international

election monitors. Eight years after the Orange revolution, when

some -- with some of the DUP mayor's leading critics serving

long sentences in jail, has Ukraine made his choice? As it turned its

back on membership of the EU? We have the man who advises the

Welcome to HARDtalk. Initially, the day after these parliamentary

elections at the end of last month, you held a press conference in

which she said that until now, not one observer mission has expressed

any significant remarks about the election. You got that one wrong,

didn't you? There were a record number of international observers

watching the Ukraine elections. 3,800, representing 35

international organisations, and 28 countries. Many of them have

already made their reports. Most of them are quite positive. The most

important report of the lot talks about an abuse of power, I should

say that we have not had the final results, but all the indications

that it say your party is going to claim victory, it talks about an

abuse of power, the excessive role of money in the election, that

democratic progress in Ukraine seems to have been reversed.

report is not ready yet. This was their interim report. It issues a

statement the next day after the election. There is a lot of

criticism. But at the same time, the statement says are that the

election happened in a democratic and principled manner.

statement says, 28th October parliamentary elections work

characterised by the lack of a level playing field, caused

primarily by the abuse of administrative resources, of

campaigner party financing, and lack of balanced media coverage. It

is a step backwards. Many observers in Ukraine state that the election

happened in a transparent and democratic manner. Why do you think

they said that? Wait for the final report. Do you think that they

would change their opinion altogether? It is a mixture of

stamens -- statements. It is not a report. It detectors recently, the

report by the European Parliament, it is quite balanced. -- if you

check. You talk about some positive comments. There is a welter of

criticism. The head of the election monitors, he says, one should not

have to visit a prison to hear from leading political figures in a

country. Obviously talking about the jailing of Yulia Tymoshenko

among others. That is a criticism that is unlikely to change come the

final report. Why they should visit people in prison, is it normal

procedure in the UK? The judiciary is an independent system. The

uranium court, after a long investigation, sentenced the former

prime minister to jail. -- Ukrainian court. Millions of people

in my country believe that the court took a right decision. This

is not a unique case in the European Union. We know just

recently, two former prime ministers were sentenced to jail as

well. I want to get into the issue of Yulia Tymoshenko in detail in a

little while, but you point, you say that these are just interim

findings, but it is unlikely they are going to change their position

180 degrees. Let me talk to about something else that is raised by

the head of the Elysee office for democratic institutions. He said,

the lack of appropriate responses by the authorities to the various

electoral violations has led to a climate of impunity, which

significant -- significantly limit political pluralism. That is a

pretty trenchant criticism of your political climate inside Ukraine.

would like to stress that our judicial system is independent of

political processes. If European politicians want to comment, please

do. A D take these comments seriously? It is not the odd member,

we are talking about Hillary Clinton, Catherine Ashton, the head

of the European Union follows think this might foreign policy arms,

talking jointly about their worry, they regret, their concern. Does

that give you any pause for thought? Let's wait for the final

report. Have they been presumptuous about talking about their worry and

they regret and their concern? are rare member state. We should

listen to what our colleagues from organisations where we are a member

say about us. Hillary Clinton has already share it -- said, we shared

the view of the monitors. It constituted a step backward for

Ukrainian democracy. This is the US's top diplomat saying that your

elections were a step backward. think it is a political statement.

Again, the report is not ready yet. Let me give you one specific

example, the behaviour of the prime minister's son, he gave every child

in his county a satchel full be kitted out for school before the

election. -- fully. The Independent court said it was not Bibury

because children do not have the vote. -- not bribery. But their

parents do. The law on elections was adopted with the vast majority

in the parliaments with a constitutional consensus. Of course

there are shortcomings in the law. But it got a positive assessment

from the European institutions. I'm here to say that the government and

the ruling party, we are committed to further reforming the electoral

legislation in Ukraine. It is not just about electoral legislation.

It is also about some pretty fundamental things. Let me bring

you back to the case of Yulia Tymoshenko. You have already said

this was a case that was settled by an independent court. And this is a

member of the European relays -- called on foreign relations. It has

demonstrated that Ukraine does not have a will of law, it is no rule

of law at all. You cannot get more criticism than that. We have been

going for a democratic way for 20 years only. We were part of the

Soviet Union. We moved quickly into the way of democracy. So in the

last years, Ukraine had many reforms. Today we are much closer

to European standards. Much closer, and yet you have got Hillary

Clinton saying that we call upon the Darfur of Ukraine to put an

immediate end to the selective prosecution of political opponents.

-- the government of Ukraine. She is talking about Yulia Tymoshenko

among others. Ukraine is not unique. So the fact that other countries

abuse human rights... she was convicted. Before that, the

Romanian prime minister was also put in jail. That is why the case

of Tymoshenko is not unique in Europe. But the difference is that

large numbers of outside observers, including at the most senior level,

they have not criticise the judicial process in Italy, but they

have slammed the process in Ukraine. Do think they have got it in for

Ukraine because of some silly reason? There is a significant

difference between Italy and Ukraine. Italy is already in the

European Union. Ukraine is only going to sign an association

agreement. Ukraine is of a big interest for European Union

countries. Our government, we are all committed to continue

democratic reforms. Ukraine today is the most of as democracy, post-

Soviet era. Off the Baltic states. You talk about the association

agreement. I want to talk about that. Before we do, let's broaden

the issue of human rights beyond Yulia Tymoshenko. Last year, you

achieved the dubious distinction of making it into the general press

release for Amnesty International's annual report. Of all the scores of

countries they could have chosen, they said that our volunteer

observers noted the deterioration of the situation with the

observance of fundamental human rights, the number of allegations

of torture, pre-trial detention centres. It increased last year.

You talk about the steps you have made, but it seems you have gone

backwards. On the contrary, the seed Ukraine has adopted a new

Criminal Procedure in court. The last code was adopted in 1960. We

are reforming our criminal system, investigation system, and the

criminal proceeding code was prepared. European institutions to

have said, in turn, that you had ignored their rulings in a way that

does not just damage Ukraine, but undermines the whole European

system of law. The European Court of Human Rights have had to handle

down what is a private judgement against you, a way of trying to

force you to comply with their rulings, because up until now, you

had ignored a dozens of them. is why we are changing our

legislation. In a few days, it will happen. This is a very big step

away from the former Soviet system in Ukraine, and after the new code

will be implemented, there will be less and less cases, as you

The trouble is, as you often see in countries that are emerging, all

say they are emerging, from repressive starts when they adopt

new constitutions and new laws, they go through the show but

essentially nothing really changes underneath because it is the same

closed system of interest. Why should people believe that the new

Ukraine process will be different? Ukraine has clearly shown that this

is the most developing democracy. One example, Ukraine has the number

four precedent now through its history. We had many times a

transfer of power. -- president. My party, the ruling party, was two

times in the opposition and this is a unique situation. Compared with a

northern and eastern neighbours, for example. That me ask you about

one specific case. The Russian opposition activist, who recently

was in kier for attending to apply for asylum. He was, it seems,

kidnapped by the Russian authorities and spirited back to

Moscow, where he was tortured and confessed to organising riots. He

was not extradited. Amnesty says that rather than request

extradition, the Russian authorities bypassed any judicial

or administrative process in getting him back to Moscow. That is

clearly a legal. Are Ukrainian authorities going to investigate

this? I am a politician, not a criminal investigator. Do you think

they should? Absolutely. It is under investigation now. I have

heard the statement by the officer of the prosecutor immediately after

this case was reported. They start of the criminal investigation.

Let's see what will be the conclusion. When it comes to

investigating other abuses, within the Ukraine, there are a lot of

people who say that there is an endemic culture of corruption. Take

for example your law, nor number 9634, which places off state

enterprises outside the law when it comes to tendering. In other words,

they can dole out state funds without any accountability or

competition. We are talking about tens of billions of dollars. Isn't

this a charter for corruption? Ukraine is a young democracy.

Corruption in the east - like in the post Soviet space goes down to

Soviet times. We have been trying to fight corruption. But this is a

law that specifically excludes state enterprises from having to

tender for projects. So, they have got about two-thirds of public

funds to disperse. Tens of billions of dollars. As I said, no

competition for accountability. It's a charter for people to siphon

off money. I am not ready to respond. Your interpretation of the

law seems to be not right. In what sense? Because all companies can be

part of tenders. What we have adopted is to loan public

procurement. It says that all companies, public and private, can

take part in the tenders. In effect, what we have had recently, a

scandal of the school buses for a these incredibly overpriced school

buses were bought. There were death traps for children. In some cases,

children managed to get off month before the bus has burst into

flames. -- moments before. You may say there is competition. The

evidence from be -- from within is that it is not working. Since the

President won his Office, he is fighting against corruption in the

Ukraine. By now, more than 4,000 criminal cases have been launched

against officials in the Ukraine. What is important here, some of

members of the current government are under investigation now and

some of them are already in jail. For example, I can say that the

former head of the State Committee for financial services was put in

prison for four years. That was on charges of corruption. Let me ask

you about how this is being viewed from abroad. Again, I am quoting

from your press conference the day after the elections, he said the

positive results of these elections would affect the mood in the

European Union. You said to have gotten closer to the signing of

this important agreement on association with the EU, the first

step towards perhaps eventual membership for the Ukraine. Isn't

that just a fantasy? If you think about the way in which people are

feeling these elections, the way in which people view the Ukraine?

said, there are dozens of positive reactions to the elections in the

Ukraine. If you check all 35 statements by 35 international

organisations, you will find a dozen positive reactions. It makes

you wonder why, for the first time in 15 years, there will not be the

European Union Ukraine some that this year. It was postponed because

of the election. -- summit. A statement from the European

Commission... It will take place next year. In regards to the

Ukrainian elections, I would refer to a statement by your MP, the

British MP, Mr Whittingdale, who assessed the Ukrainian elections as

a positive step on the path to democracy. In the meantime, you

have other members from the EU, such as the chairman of the

Committee on European Union affairs in the Bundestag, saying that until

the case against Yulia Tymoshenko is closed, the associated agreement

between the Ukraine and the EU will be blocked. No chance of progress.

Again, it's a political statement. But it is also a statement of fact,

that you will not get disassociation agreement that you

desperately need. There are 27 national parliaments in the

European Union. We have 27 different opinions. But there is a

unanimous opinion in regards to Yulia Tymoshenko. At what happened

in your Euro 2012 championships. Leader after leader of boycotted

Games in the Ukraine because they did not want to be seen endorsing

the Ukrainian government because of the Yulia Tymoshenko problem.

not a characteristic of this leaders. Sport should not be mixed

with politics. This was set in ancient times. What is positive,

the Ukrainian championship went incredibly positively. There are

many positive statements on that. With regards to the satiation

agreement, I am not sure that the associated agreement is more

positive food European producers because it contains a deep and

comprehensive free trade agreement. -- for European producers. The

Ukraine will open for European business. Is it the truth that as

the former US ambassador to the Ukraine, it was pointed out that

you have miscalculated on this? In his words, the President has

overseen a democratic progression in the Ukraine. He has played a

geopolitical game in which he appears to assume that the West and

will overlook his Democratic black -- backsliding. This is a

miscalculation. Thank you. You are trying to refer to people who

intervention. That is why they politicians in the Ukraine. We were

not supporters, my party, of that. failure. It failed to give to the

Ukrainian people through democratic reforms. My governme governme governme governme