Sima Samar - Chairperson, Afghan Human Rights Commission HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it's time for Afghanistan is reckoned to be one

of the worst places on earth to be a woman. Forced early marriage,

high maternal mortality rates and little secondary education. My

guess today is Dr Sina Samar, a medical doctor, educator and

chairperson of Afghanistan's Human Rights Commission. Ten years ago,

she also became her country's first ever Minister for Women's Affairs.

She has been a pioneer for human rights in Afghanistan but does she

have the right strategy to win greater freedoms for after on

Dr Sina Samar, welcome. Thank you very much. Which is more important

to you, eight defender of human rights for citizens or a champion

for women's rights? I think human- rights Ra universal by year. I

think women's rights, under the same umbrella. I keep pushing human

rights as women's rights. Surely you must have a focus? I think that

if you push for human rights then it takes all the population but if

you only focus on women's rights, it is half the population. That is

why we generally fight for human rights and try to put women's

rights under the human rights agenda. If women are not free, then

neither are the men.Known international circles and attend a

lot of conferences as part of women's networks as principally a

promoter of women's rights. That may, at times, could you at odds

with many in Afghanistan. I think it is not only in Afghanistan but

in other countries. It is a question of controlling half the

population which is women. In any country, you face some obstacles.

In a country such as Afghanistan where we have a strong conservative

people and powerful people around then they do not like to lose the

power on half of the population, which is women. You could argue

that the most important thing is to educate people and that is the key

for prosperous society and if you focus on that then prosperous

treatment for women in society follows. Why not just focus on the

rights of all citizens in Afghanistan and say that the rights

of young women -- young males are also violated when they have

brainwashed into becoming suicide bombers? 36% of Afghan people live

in poverty. So what why not do not speak about women at all, that

focus on all people becoming better educated? I think I'm doing that.

We're not just focusing on women's rights but we are also focusing on

human rights in the country. That covers everybody in the country.

The young generation, the Auld generation, the disabled, the

children and the women. We do believe that everybody should have

the right to education and also a better life. That is how you see it

now. In 2002 when he became part of the government, is set up the first

ever women's affairs ministry and he became the first ever women's

affairs minister. Why did you do that? Why didn't you say you wanted

to set up a human rights ministry? There was a conference in Germany

to set up a new system in Afghanistan, a new government in

Afghanistan and they put me as the Minister for Women's Affairs in

Afghanistan because I'll was advocating for women's

participation in the government and decision-making. That was not my

personal choice. They put me over there without asking me, without

consulting me. You could have said no, you could have said can I make

it a social affairs ministry and advance the rights of the

disadvantaged and decide that -- disabled. And not make it a special

interest Ministry. I think that the issue at that particular time was

that it was -- there was a lot of violation of human rights of women

in that country. In prison, in their houses. They gave me their

job to help me promote women's rights. I think that without

women's rights and participation of women, we would not be able to

speak of a democratic society or promote a democratic society.

do you think that Afghanistan is one of the worst places in the

world to be a woman? 12.5 % of women in Afghanistan are illiterate.

Early forced marriages, UNICEF says that young marriage accounts for

40% of all marriages in Afghanistan. Why do you think that the lot of

women is so bad there? Part of the reason is the continued conflict.

We had been in conflict for more than three decades. Naturally, wars

destroy the social structure. Nobody pays attention to basic

social services, including education. Lack of education itself

puts you in a very very vulnerable position. Poverty in of Dagestan

continues from a lack in the country. A lot of these issues put

us in a difficult situation. Corruption and so one is causing a

lot of violations of human rights. Particularly women are more

vulnerable to that. You accept the proposition that Afghanistan is one

of the worst places to be a woman? It is very difficult. While we

quoted as saying that, in Afghanistan, we're better than most

countries in Asia for women's participation in government? People

see only one side of the problem which is, unfortunately, the bad

side. News is always focusing on a bad... I accept it. If you look at

their political system for women, we have three women ministers...

out of 25. Not great. It is much better than a neighbouring

countries. If you look at Iran, it is one minister. Pakistan is not

much. If you look at the neighbouring countries of that end

a stand, it is not many. That is why I am saying that we also... it

is a difficult country, and a lot of women do not have access to

basic healthcare services. The women who are in the cities and are

participating in politics are quite good. What is going wrong? You're

saying that it is quite good but Afghanistan's national development

strategy is to improve that education of women and women in

public institutions. And yet you have 20% involvement down from 35%.

You're going backwards. You have a lot of women as teachers. Now we

have a lot of other sectors that men are involved in. There are not

enough women with enough quality education to fulfil those positions.

That is why we're going down. The police, the army, we don't have a

lot of women. So in public service and government positions, including

the police, are ignoring me. The percentage of women have gone down.

When you said that if you look at our neighbours, we don't do badly.

I put it to you that perhaps there is improvement or progress in other

countries in Asia but in Afghanistan are going backwards?

don't think we're going backwards. Because we have a say 350,000 armed

forces, only 5% are women. The percentage goes up with a

calculation. You need those figures, those faces. But unknown. Pakistan

and Bangladesh have faces, very prominent women. You don't have

that in Afghanistan. All the top positions are male. In that

particular part of Asia is more advanced on women's leadership than

even Europe. You do not see a lot of women in Europe who up by

ministers like we have in Bangladesh. That is the point I put

to you. I am just challenging and on the point where you say that our

record in Afghanistan is not that bad when you look at our

involvement in public institutions. When you look at the rear positions

of power, these people who control the levers of power, women are

absent. We should not forget that we work at war for 35 years. War

itself puts women in a vulnerable position and in a weaker position

than they should be. Why is that? You have conflict and poverty in

other countries. He does not necessarily result in a worsening

situation for women. A do not think that is the case. If you look at

Somalia or, it is mainly women who are the victims of war. What does

conflict have to do with the fact that in March this year, the

President endorsed a religious statement that said that women were

a secondary two men. They could not travel without a male relative.

That they should not mix with men at work or study. I think that it

was a statement. It was not really be endorsed by the present. We did

criticise him on his acceptance of that. He should have had an art of

voice, saying that we have a constitution and that constitution

guarantees equal rights for men and women in Afghanistan. And the

constitution is based on Sharia sono of the rules or laws can be

imposed by the religious on us. They are not an institution to make

the law changed the law. When I asked about the religious

statements, what does that have to do with conflict? I think that in a

conflict situation in Afghanistan or any other country, there is a

group of people who gain more power. In our case because everyone was

supporting the Conservative part of the society that the Conservative

parts became more powerful. That is why we have this group of people

will make a statement against women's rights against even the

constitution of the country. So the President was trying to appease the

Conservatives were made that statement? He did not acknowledge

it officially. He did not prove it. He was sitting in the meeting and

he did not react. But it will become fat? I do not think so.

you not going say to him - what did you saying? I just went to the

media and said that we have a constitution and that constitution

is based on Sharia. Council does So there is not the institution to

make the law. The law is passed and that's it.

You bring up the issue of law and you do advocate for women's rights

being enshrined in the law. I put it to you that for many people in

traditional or conservative societies, their own cultural

imperatives Trumper law every time. Take early marriage. Child marriage

is illegal in Afghanistan, and it nearly half of all weddings that

take place in the country are child marriages. It is not legal to have

child marriages and forced marriages. But the problem is that

we still are struggling in order to is not legal, the religious leader

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds

Up and the advocate for justice. -- we do take the cases up. In most,

we can bring that perpetrated to justice, to push the government to

bring them to justice and make them accountable. Your path in upholding

the rights of women in Afghanistan has been a bit controversial. As I

said, he became the first women's lasted six months because of your

statement about the wearing of the broker. What you said, as a medical

doctor, it is a health risk and it means that women who wear them I'm

not getting enough vitamin D because they are covered. Why did

you say that? You were using a medical justification for an

argument in which people say, actually, be a bit more bold and

say if you really believe if women should not wear it because it is

restrictive or unnecessary or whatever. I think I am very clear

and allowed on that. I believe that a woman has the right to shoes to

wear it. If it is imposed, it's a violation of human rights. -- Jews.

No. Two, I did not lose the position because of the statement

only. I was calling for justice and accountability. That is why I was

removed from that. Dusters and accountability for what?

everything in the country, particularly for the past crimes.

- justice. You come from a fairly traditional background. You are one

of 11 children, the traditional provincial background from an

ethnic minority. You say your brothers had more freedoms than you.

The odds seemed stacked against you but he still managed to carve out a

career for yourself, he became a medical doctor. What is it about

you that allowed you to progress like that, seemingly when things

were not in your favour? I think when... I believe in equality and a

easily live for yourself but I thought that I will do work that

could help some other people who can't stand for their rights and

they can't raise their voices. you not get you not gethat somebody

will target you? You have incidences, like the woman into the

Kandahar, who headed the women's units. She got shot in her car. --

in 2008. Unfortunately she was shot. Other women have been killed in

Afghanistan, unfortunately. But I know the risk and I decided to take

it in order to make some positive change. You see a difference?

How far does it help you in having a high profile like this? Arguably,

if you did your work below the radar of the wood and attract so

much attention and the death threats. -- then you wouldn't.

sides of the work has an impact, positively. First of all, we have

to do work at the grassroots to change their mentality and

behaviour and improve their lives. Secondly, we have to raise our

voice to be heard, that we our existing and that is the fact that

people have to acknowledge. That Afghani

Afghanistan at the moment can be a -- and development in the country.

How far does recognition in the West helped you? You were awarded

for improving the lives of women in Afghanistan, one of the most

dangers places in the world. Your courageous dedication and so on.

Does it help when you get international written their Asian?

It does help because it's a knowledge that of the work I am

doing. -- international recognition. I believe I am in the right

direction. It is acknowledged by the international community also,

not only my own feeling. When you have prominent members of the

international community, like the then UN special envoy of

Afghanistan, who said last year that one of the reasons why there

is an international presence in Afghanistan is precisely to promote

the rights of women. Does the championing of women's rights by

Westerners like that, he is Italian of course, does that help you or is

it a bit of a liability? I think it helps me because not me but the

women in Afghanistan. I don't believe... It's a human value and

it is universal for everybody. It doesn't matter where we live.

you can then get other people, like the spokesman to the tap --

Pakistani Taliban who said about the girl who was shot that she has

become a symbol for western culture and even if she survives the

shooting, the militants would try to kill her again. Trying to be the

trade as a Western puppet, upholding Western values. It

doesn't help arguably if you are championed by the West, does it?

don't think that the case. I keep saying it is and Western values.

Access to education is a basic human right. -- it is not western.

Everybody should have access to education, wherever they live. It

does not matter if you are in Pakistan, Afghanistan or London.

Everybody should have access to education. Those people who try to

impose the mentality as a principal and blaming others who believe in

human rights and equal rights as a Western value, in order to reduce

your impact on the society. when you have a lot of human rights

groups inside and outside Afghanistan urging Hillary Clinton

to publicly renounce a strategy to protect human rights before she

leaves office, critics could say you are conflating women's rights

with the American presence in Afghanistan and that is not going

to be particularly helpful? I don't think that is the case. Nobody can

deny the impact of the US everywhere in the world. They are

the only superpower currently. you want to see Hillary Clinton to

such a thing? I think she is advocating for women's rights

everywhere, not only Afghanistan. But because of their active

engagement in Afghanistan, she has the responsibility to do it, in my

view. Because we have at least the same objective and same goal, in

order to promote democracy in Afghanistan. We can't really reach

a democratic society without full participation of women. That is

very clear. Finally, when you look around the other Muslim countries

and you see the post Arab Spring countries, where there are many

liberal and secular list them are among them, who feel rights for

women may be eroded in countries like Egypt and Tunisia because of

the new constitutions drawn up, do you see a trend in was when nations,

that women's rights, rather than progressing, are actually going

backwards? IT is a political agenda that the people who become in power,

they try to impose their mentality on people. And control half of the

population easily by using religion in culture in order to continue

benefiting from the situation. I am not very pessimistic in that case.

I think women in Egypt and Tunisia and any other countries, they

realise they should stand for their rights and they should do it. They