Jan Cheek - Executive Councillor, Falkland Islands Government HARDtalk


Jan Cheek - Executive Councillor, Falkland Islands Government

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Much more on the BBC website: Now on BBC News it is time for HARDtalk.

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To Britain it's the Falklands, to Argentina the Malvinas. 30 years

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ago the two countries went to war over these islands in the South

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Atlantic. Now they can smell oil, 8 billion barrels worth is being

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drilled for this year. Is that why Buenos Aires and London are trading

:00:28.:00:38.
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insults once again? Jan Cheek is one of the leaders of the 3,000

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islanders who are about to be asked to vote on whether there should be

:00:43.:00:49.

negotiations with Argentina. She says yes, but by what right do the

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islanders insist they should stay linked to a country on the other

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side of the world? For how much longer will the British be prepared

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to pay the military and diplomatic bill?

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Jan Cheek, welcome to HARDtalk. Why are you holding this referendum?

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The islanders have chosen to hold it as a way of demonstrating to the

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world that we are content without current status as a British

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overseas territory. One of 14 scattered around the world. Why is

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it necessary to demonstrate that? We have no doubt, the islanders

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have no doubt, but we wish to demonstrate it to the world and to

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Argentina, who are trying to portray us as an implant a

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population who have no right to our homeland. You call it your homeland,

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I want to talk to you about that. On the referendum itself, you say

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that Argentina is calling for negotiations over the sovereignty

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over the Falkland Islands, you ask the islanders if they want to

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retain their current political status as an overseas territory of

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the UK. What about someone who likes the status quo but would like

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to tour to Argentina? The fact that we are a British overseas territory

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with the right to self determination allows us to talk to

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Argentina if we wanted. If they were willing to talk to us on

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matters of mutual interest, we would be more than happy to do so.

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We want nothing more than to be good neighbours. You say that, but

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new referred to them wanting negotiations over the sovereignty

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of the islands. -- you refer. does not frighten us, we have lived

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with it all of our lives. Since Peron raised it. It is something I

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am accustomed to. When it became a violent issue during the war of 82,

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people were frightened. Otherwise we see it as so much noise from

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across the water. Is it fairly representing the position of the

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Argentine government? Christine the -- Christina, said we are not

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asking anyone to say that the Malvinas belong to Argentina, we

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just want to sit down and talk. Sitting down and talking is great.

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We did that with Argentina in 1999. They walked away from nearly every

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element of the agreement we made since then. When they say they want

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to sit down and talk, they are looking for one outcome. That is a

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handover of the islands to Argentina. They are not looking for

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genuine negotiation. How would talking weaken your position if you

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have the backing of the islanders? Would it be an opportunity to talk?

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As we did in 99. We talked, we made some agreements on matters of

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mutual interest. Each one of which they have walked away from.

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Unilaterally. I think you will find, you would have to talk to the

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Argentine government to get their answer on this, but they are

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looking for only one outcome. It is rather pointless sitting down if

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one side has already decided what the outcome must be. But that in

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terms of the options that might be available is not reflected in the

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referendum. Your own are talking about an open discussion. -- you

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are not. The defence minister says he does not understand the wording

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of the referendum. The issue is about the right of the islanders to

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:05:48.:05:48.

determine their own future. That is contained in being an overseas

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territory of the UK. Because the UK does recognise our right to self-

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determination. Successive governments of whatever party have

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upheld that right. The UK has said it is bound by what the islanders

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say. If you said to the UK government, talk on our behalf, the

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UK would not stand in the way. No, it is the choice of the people of

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the islands. That is what the referendum is about. You do not

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think it might be a provocative move? Our existence is provocative

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to Argentina. You have had perfectly amicable relations after

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the end of the war, you said you were talking at the end of the 90s.

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We were certainly talking at the end of the 90s. We were working

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with them on things where both sides could benefit. For example,

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the sustainable management of fisheries. But they have walked

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away from all of that. They are working against us in several

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different ways. One in a propaganda campaign. They are going into

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governments around the world and telling the rewritten version of

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history. You know the history is contested in terms of what the

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legal status of the islands is. On the question of provocation, there

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has been some strong language, Mike Summers said a couple of the us to

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go that Argentina was taking an economic warfare Broatch. -- years

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ago. -- approach. Environmental terrorism. That kind of rhetoric

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does not help to build bridges. does not help to build bridges but

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the action they have taken in attempting to damage fisheries, in

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attempting to deter cruise ships from coming to the islands,

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refusing free passage of charter flights through their air space.

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What options to they have if you are not prepared to talk? I do not

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think he bring some onto the table to talk by threats or bad behaviour.

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-- you bring. The best way to get people to talk to you is by

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behaving in a reasonable and friendly fashion. There is no

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incentive if you turn around and say, no. We did that in the 90s. We

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talked to them. They were behaving in a rational and reasonable

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fashion. They appeared to be prepared to talk about matters of

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mutual interest. It is not just Argentina and other Latin-American

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countries saying you should be talking, Hillary Clinton, Secretary

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of State, saying we want Britain and Argentina to talk about the

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future of the islands. Five Nobel Peace laureate wrote to the British

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Prime Minister in March and said, the lack of a willingness to talk

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with a democratic country, whose commitment to peace has been

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demonstrated, the undertaking of air and sea manoeuvres is seriously

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threatening peace and harmony in that part of the world. Taking your

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last point first, any air and sea manoeuvres are simply part of the

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normal exercising of the deterrent force on the island which has been

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there since 1982. It is only there because of any perceived threat

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there may be. The then Defence Minister told the House of Commons

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that all the advice we have there is neither the capability or the

:10:03.:10:12.
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intention by the Argentines... long as the deterrent is there.

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says the capability is not there. could not comment on their military

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capability. Are you confident the British could defend you if it came

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to it? Yes. It is a very different situation to that in 82. We just

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had a handful of oral Marines defending the island. -- royal

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Marines. The reason I ask this, in light of the defence cuts Great

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Britain has undertaken as part of its budget savings, the former

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commander of the task force who was sent to relieve the island in 1982

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have said they do not think if the Falklands were to be attacked it

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would be possible. I read what they said. What they said, the islands

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could not be retaken. That is quite a different issue. The islands are

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well-defended. They were not in 82. There is no credible threat. Why

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are these manoeuvres necessary? They are just normal training

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exercises. In some cases the Falklands is being used as a

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training ground for troops before they are posted to other, more

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dangerous destinations. You could argue there is no need to do it

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there, you could do it somewhere less provocative. Obviously, the

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people in charge find it a convenient place to do it. Apart

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from anywhere else, they are welcomed with open arms. They can

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fly as low as they want whenever they want. This is quite an

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expensive commitment Britain makes. The estimates are �61 million in

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terms of defence costs in this financial year. The economist

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newspaper reports it might be as much as �200 million. How long do

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you think Britain is going to be prepared to carry on paying VAT

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bill? I think that Bell is not entirely accurate all to the

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defence of the island. -- bill. It is the additional cost of moving

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them to and from the islands which are counted. That is a matter for

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the British Government, not one we can dictate. In a sense you are

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dictating it because you are saying, we want to retain the status, we

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feel threatened by Argentina, we require this investment by the

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British. We hope that the British people support the fact that the

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islands were retaken, not simply for the islanders, but as a

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demonstration that aggression by a large and greedy neighbour should

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not be allowed to succeed. We hope the deterrent is there for the same

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reason. The wall was 30 years ago. Anyone under the age of 40 will

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barely remember it. There were plenty of surveys during the course

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of the year showing support for the status quo among many age groups,

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but 18-24-year-olds, 49% supported negotiations with a view to a

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handover. 39% against. Are you concerned there may be a

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generational shift as the memory fades and it might affect

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I regularly attend the party conferences and talk with many

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party members, young and old, and I want to explain the facts to them.

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They take a different view. It may be that they are simply not aware

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of the facts. Let's talk about the facts and that is the question of

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the status of the Falkland Islands. By what right do you claim that you

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should determine who is legally and constitutionally responsible for

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maintaining the islands? Who has sovereignty?

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By the fact that we were born there, we have lived there in some cases

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for eight or nine generations. It is the only homeland that people

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know. By what might does Argentina says it should be otherwise? On the

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question of homeland, what proportion of people who live on

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the islands, 3,000, were born there? I don't know the precise

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figures. Probably around half of them. Half our income has? Who had

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chosen to live in the Falkland Islands? It has been settled by

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Canada, New Zealand, so many South American countries, by waves of

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immigration over the many years since the 1830s. The difference

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with the Falklands is we did not replace an Indigenous population.

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The Argentines say that the people who were on the island in 1833 were

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booted out by a military expedition and it was at that point Britain

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established its right to govern. That has been well and truly

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disproved by research in the archives in when a series. So, not

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true. Some people were given the option of leaving. The vast

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majority chose to stay. All for those who left, I don't know if

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there were more than a hand for who were what you would call Argentine

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today. A question, I suppose, is if you are so confident with this, why

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don't you tested in the law? Why not refer your case to the

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International Court of Justice and get a definitive ruling? I don't

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know why that has never been seriously suggested by either side.

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Maybe because we believe we are right. But there is no legally

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defined definition of eight people. Nobody knows how to test that. You

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argue that the evidence is in your favour. Put it to an international

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tribunal, let a ruling be made and then you won't have to deal with

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this constant argument over who you belong to. I am not sure who we

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belong to is a question. We see ourselves as Falkland Islanders.

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Falkland Islanders, by definition, are British because we are a

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British overseas territory but the idea that we belong to anyone is

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foreign to me, difficult for me. You are effectively talking about

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the territory being effectively the responsibility of the UK. One

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international lawyer says that if the dispute went to the

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International Court of Justice, it is not clear who would win, that it

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is not clear if the Falkland Islanders are a people or not.

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not sure where you draw the line. Is it way you live? Numbers?

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Nationality? I am not a legal expert. The law requires a two

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party dispute to enter into negotiations. About? About the

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status of the islands. I disagree. Even though there have been UN

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resolutions going back to 1965? resolutions to suggest that people

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talk and talking is always a good way to resolve differences but you

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have got to go into those talks with a willingness to genuinely

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discuss the subject in hand. And I think the two sides are so far

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apart on is that talks would not be productive. Do you think this has

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become a particularly sensitive issue once again not just because

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of the anniversary but because of the recognition they could be

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significant oil under the Falkland Islands and around the Falkland

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Islands? Well, one could take the view that Argentina far from

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wanting to D colonise the Falklands would like to make the Falklands a

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colony of Argentina in order that they can get their hands on the

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resources which belong to that territory. Presumably that is part

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of the risk that has been identified by some of the companies

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involved, who have said they are worried that relations are so poor

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that it could be a risk. One of the company is developing an oil field

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said it would be foolhardy to dismiss the risk as nothing and

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they had to think long and hard before signing, taking advantage --

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advice from the UK government, because they were worried. They

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have taken advice and on balance, they have decided to go ahead, so

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clearly, the risk is regarded as a manageable one. And they have had

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to work around the nuisance that the Argentine activities were

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trying to create. But they have done it successfully and they now

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plan to go ahead with production in about 2017. It is extraordinary -

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8.3 billion barrels being targeted in four Wells this year, three

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times the size of the UK's reserves. You are sitting on a bonanza.

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are told, but we are not counting any oil money and to it starts to

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flow. The trouble is, it is not just flowing, is it? You have got

:20:25.:20:29.

to get it out and distributed and sell it. Does not the example of

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Sudan show that it is not enough to have oil, you must also have good

:20:34.:20:38.

relations with your neighbours to develop that potential. The oil

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companies will be confident they can develop that potential in spite

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of interference from Argentina and there are many other markets in the

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world. You have still got to get it to those markets. It is unfortunate

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that Argentina chooses not to have supply for people working there

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with some of the equipment they need and some of the services they

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need, which could be beneficial to them as well. Not just Argentina,

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is it? The Brazilian Foreign Minister says that all Latin-

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American nations support Argentine sovereignty. And several countries

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have supported Argentina in its concern to promote that. It is very

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clear that Argentina is leaning on all of its neighbours to make these

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pronouncements at the end of the various regional conferences that

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they have. But the fact is, apart from oil, it is business as usual

:21:35.:21:40.

with those countries. Or perhaps they actually agree with Argentina

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that you are an anachronism? That it makes no sense for an island 300

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miles from the South American mainland to be attached to the UK?

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Perhaps, but if you extend the geographical argument, you change

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the map of Europe. Both the geographical and historical

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arguments have huge flaws. If you start putting boundaries back

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before 1833, the world will be a very different place. Can you be

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that confident that this will continue to be the case? As the rat

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in that report which was published at the beginning of this year

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showed, Britain has made previous overtures to Argentina. It was

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prepared to consider in the 1960s some form of handover of

:22:27.:22:34.

sovereignty. It was prepared in 1974, and that might have happened

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were it not for the death of the President of a heart attack one

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week later, to hand over sovereignty and entertain the

:22:43.:22:50.

prospect of dual nationality. Things could change. Things changed

:22:50.:22:54.

in 1982 when Argentina invaded and that changed the situation. There

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is no going back? Unfortunately not. On that basis, if there is no going

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back from your point of view, and you were confident that islanders

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feel that way as well, once you have that referendum and if it

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endorses your view, why not on those terms and with that

:23:13.:23:16.

confidence talk with Argentina? will gladly talk with them about

:23:16.:23:23.

matters of mutual interest? -- mutual interest. Have you made that

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approach? We have indeed. A letter was handed over to them by one of

:23:30.:23:35.

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