Browse content similar to Jan Cheek - Executive Councillor, Falkland Islands Government. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Much more on the BBC website: Now on BBC News it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:10. | :00:16. | |
To Britain it's the Falklands, to Argentina the Malvinas. 30 years | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
ago the two countries went to war over these islands in the South | :00:19. | :00:25. | |
Atlantic. Now they can smell oil, 8 billion barrels worth is being | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
drilled for this year. Is that why Buenos Aires and London are trading | :00:28. | :00:38. | |
:00:38. | :00:39. | ||
insults once again? Jan Cheek is one of the leaders of the 3,000 | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
islanders who are about to be asked to vote on whether there should be | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
negotiations with Argentina. She says yes, but by what right do the | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
islanders insist they should stay linked to a country on the other | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
side of the world? For how much longer will the British be prepared | :00:55. | :01:05. | |
:01:05. | :01:17. | ||
to pay the military and diplomatic bill? | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
Jan Cheek, welcome to HARDtalk. Why are you holding this referendum? | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
The islanders have chosen to hold it as a way of demonstrating to the | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
world that we are content without current status as a British | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
overseas territory. One of 14 scattered around the world. Why is | :01:39. | :01:47. | |
it necessary to demonstrate that? We have no doubt, the islanders | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
have no doubt, but we wish to demonstrate it to the world and to | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
Argentina, who are trying to portray us as an implant a | :01:57. | :02:04. | |
population who have no right to our homeland. You call it your homeland, | :02:04. | :02:12. | |
I want to talk to you about that. On the referendum itself, you say | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
that Argentina is calling for negotiations over the sovereignty | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
over the Falkland Islands, you ask the islanders if they want to | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
retain their current political status as an overseas territory of | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
the UK. What about someone who likes the status quo but would like | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
to tour to Argentina? The fact that we are a British overseas territory | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
with the right to self determination allows us to talk to | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
Argentina if we wanted. If they were willing to talk to us on | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
matters of mutual interest, we would be more than happy to do so. | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
We want nothing more than to be good neighbours. You say that, but | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
new referred to them wanting negotiations over the sovereignty | :02:58. | :03:06. | |
of the islands. -- you refer. does not frighten us, we have lived | :03:06. | :03:16. | |
:03:16. | :03:18. | ||
with it all of our lives. Since Peron raised it. It is something I | :03:18. | :03:25. | |
am accustomed to. When it became a violent issue during the war of 82, | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
people were frightened. Otherwise we see it as so much noise from | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
across the water. Is it fairly representing the position of the | :03:35. | :03:45. | |
:03:45. | :03:50. | ||
Argentine government? Christine the -- Christina, said we are not | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
asking anyone to say that the Malvinas belong to Argentina, we | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
just want to sit down and talk. Sitting down and talking is great. | :03:59. | :04:06. | |
We did that with Argentina in 1999. They walked away from nearly every | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
element of the agreement we made since then. When they say they want | :04:10. | :04:17. | |
to sit down and talk, they are looking for one outcome. That is a | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
handover of the islands to Argentina. They are not looking for | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
genuine negotiation. How would talking weaken your position if you | :04:25. | :04:33. | |
have the backing of the islanders? Would it be an opportunity to talk? | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
As we did in 99. We talked, we made some agreements on matters of | :04:40. | :04:47. | |
mutual interest. Each one of which they have walked away from. | :04:47. | :04:56. | |
Unilaterally. I think you will find, you would have to talk to the | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
Argentine government to get their answer on this, but they are | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
looking for only one outcome. It is rather pointless sitting down if | :05:05. | :05:12. | |
one side has already decided what the outcome must be. But that in | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
terms of the options that might be available is not reflected in the | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
referendum. Your own are talking about an open discussion. -- you | :05:21. | :05:31. | |
:05:31. | :05:32. | ||
are not. The defence minister says he does not understand the wording | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
of the referendum. The issue is about the right of the islanders to | :05:38. | :05:48. | |
:05:48. | :05:48. | ||
determine their own future. That is contained in being an overseas | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
territory of the UK. Because the UK does recognise our right to self- | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
determination. Successive governments of whatever party have | :05:58. | :06:06. | |
upheld that right. The UK has said it is bound by what the islanders | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
say. If you said to the UK government, talk on our behalf, the | :06:11. | :06:19. | |
UK would not stand in the way. No, it is the choice of the people of | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
the islands. That is what the referendum is about. You do not | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
think it might be a provocative move? Our existence is provocative | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
to Argentina. You have had perfectly amicable relations after | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
the end of the war, you said you were talking at the end of the 90s. | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
We were certainly talking at the end of the 90s. We were working | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
with them on things where both sides could benefit. For example, | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
the sustainable management of fisheries. But they have walked | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
away from all of that. They are working against us in several | :06:59. | :07:09. | |
:07:09. | :07:10. | ||
different ways. One in a propaganda campaign. They are going into | :07:10. | :07:17. | |
governments around the world and telling the rewritten version of | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
history. You know the history is contested in terms of what the | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
legal status of the islands is. On the question of provocation, there | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
has been some strong language, Mike Summers said a couple of the us to | :07:36. | :07:44. | |
go that Argentina was taking an economic warfare Broatch. -- years | :07:44. | :07:52. | |
ago. -- approach. Environmental terrorism. That kind of rhetoric | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
does not help to build bridges. does not help to build bridges but | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
the action they have taken in attempting to damage fisheries, in | :08:02. | :08:09. | |
attempting to deter cruise ships from coming to the islands, | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
refusing free passage of charter flights through their air space. | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
What options to they have if you are not prepared to talk? I do not | :08:19. | :08:27. | |
think he bring some onto the table to talk by threats or bad behaviour. | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
-- you bring. The best way to get people to talk to you is by | :08:31. | :08:39. | |
behaving in a reasonable and friendly fashion. There is no | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
incentive if you turn around and say, no. We did that in the 90s. We | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
talked to them. They were behaving in a rational and reasonable | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
fashion. They appeared to be prepared to talk about matters of | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
mutual interest. It is not just Argentina and other Latin-American | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
countries saying you should be talking, Hillary Clinton, Secretary | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
of State, saying we want Britain and Argentina to talk about the | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
future of the islands. Five Nobel Peace laureate wrote to the British | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
Prime Minister in March and said, the lack of a willingness to talk | :09:17. | :09:25. | |
with a democratic country, whose commitment to peace has been | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
demonstrated, the undertaking of air and sea manoeuvres is seriously | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
threatening peace and harmony in that part of the world. Taking your | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
last point first, any air and sea manoeuvres are simply part of the | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
normal exercising of the deterrent force on the island which has been | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
there since 1982. It is only there because of any perceived threat | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
there may be. The then Defence Minister told the House of Commons | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
that all the advice we have there is neither the capability or the | :10:03. | :10:12. | |
:10:13. | :10:13. | ||
intention by the Argentines... long as the deterrent is there. | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
says the capability is not there. could not comment on their military | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
capability. Are you confident the British could defend you if it came | :10:22. | :10:29. | |
to it? Yes. It is a very different situation to that in 82. We just | :10:29. | :10:39. | |
:10:39. | :10:40. | ||
had a handful of oral Marines defending the island. -- royal | :10:40. | :10:48. | |
Marines. The reason I ask this, in light of the defence cuts Great | :10:48. | :10:56. | |
Britain has undertaken as part of its budget savings, the former | :10:56. | :11:03. | |
commander of the task force who was sent to relieve the island in 1982 | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
have said they do not think if the Falklands were to be attacked it | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
would be possible. I read what they said. What they said, the islands | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
could not be retaken. That is quite a different issue. The islands are | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
well-defended. They were not in 82. There is no credible threat. Why | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
are these manoeuvres necessary? They are just normal training | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
exercises. In some cases the Falklands is being used as a | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
training ground for troops before they are posted to other, more | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
dangerous destinations. You could argue there is no need to do it | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
there, you could do it somewhere less provocative. Obviously, the | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
people in charge find it a convenient place to do it. Apart | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
from anywhere else, they are welcomed with open arms. They can | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
fly as low as they want whenever they want. This is quite an | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
expensive commitment Britain makes. The estimates are �61 million in | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
terms of defence costs in this financial year. The economist | :12:15. | :12:23. | |
newspaper reports it might be as much as �200 million. How long do | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
you think Britain is going to be prepared to carry on paying VAT | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
bill? I think that Bell is not entirely accurate all to the | :12:32. | :12:42. | |
defence of the island. -- bill. It is the additional cost of moving | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
them to and from the islands which are counted. That is a matter for | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
the British Government, not one we can dictate. In a sense you are | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
dictating it because you are saying, we want to retain the status, we | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
feel threatened by Argentina, we require this investment by the | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
British. We hope that the British people support the fact that the | :13:07. | :13:14. | |
islands were retaken, not simply for the islanders, but as a | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
demonstration that aggression by a large and greedy neighbour should | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
not be allowed to succeed. We hope the deterrent is there for the same | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
reason. The wall was 30 years ago. Anyone under the age of 40 will | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
barely remember it. There were plenty of surveys during the course | :13:34. | :13:41. | |
of the year showing support for the status quo among many age groups, | :13:41. | :13:50. | |
but 18-24-year-olds, 49% supported negotiations with a view to a | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
handover. 39% against. Are you concerned there may be a | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
generational shift as the memory fades and it might affect | :13:58. | :14:08. | |
:14:08. | :14:09. | ||
I regularly attend the party conferences and talk with many | :14:09. | :14:15. | |
party members, young and old, and I want to explain the facts to them. | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
They take a different view. It may be that they are simply not aware | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
of the facts. Let's talk about the facts and that is the question of | :14:24. | :14:31. | |
the status of the Falkland Islands. By what right do you claim that you | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
should determine who is legally and constitutionally responsible for | :14:37. | :14:44. | |
maintaining the islands? Who has sovereignty? | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
By the fact that we were born there, we have lived there in some cases | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
for eight or nine generations. It is the only homeland that people | :14:56. | :15:03. | |
know. By what might does Argentina says it should be otherwise? On the | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
question of homeland, what proportion of people who live on | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
the islands, 3,000, were born there? I don't know the precise | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
figures. Probably around half of them. Half our income has? Who had | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
chosen to live in the Falkland Islands? It has been settled by | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
Canada, New Zealand, so many South American countries, by waves of | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
immigration over the many years since the 1830s. The difference | :15:32. | :15:38. | |
with the Falklands is we did not replace an Indigenous population. | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
The Argentines say that the people who were on the island in 1833 were | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
booted out by a military expedition and it was at that point Britain | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
established its right to govern. That has been well and truly | :15:54. | :16:00. | |
disproved by research in the archives in when a series. So, not | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
true. Some people were given the option of leaving. The vast | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
majority chose to stay. All for those who left, I don't know if | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
there were more than a hand for who were what you would call Argentine | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
today. A question, I suppose, is if you are so confident with this, why | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
don't you tested in the law? Why not refer your case to the | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
International Court of Justice and get a definitive ruling? I don't | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
know why that has never been seriously suggested by either side. | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
Maybe because we believe we are right. But there is no legally | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
defined definition of eight people. Nobody knows how to test that. You | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
argue that the evidence is in your favour. Put it to an international | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
tribunal, let a ruling be made and then you won't have to deal with | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
this constant argument over who you belong to. I am not sure who we | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
belong to is a question. We see ourselves as Falkland Islanders. | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
Falkland Islanders, by definition, are British because we are a | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
British overseas territory but the idea that we belong to anyone is | :17:16. | :17:23. | |
foreign to me, difficult for me. You are effectively talking about | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
the territory being effectively the responsibility of the UK. One | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
international lawyer says that if the dispute went to the | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
International Court of Justice, it is not clear who would win, that it | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
is not clear if the Falkland Islanders are a people or not. | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
not sure where you draw the line. Is it way you live? Numbers? | :17:47. | :17:53. | |
Nationality? I am not a legal expert. The law requires a two | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
party dispute to enter into negotiations. About? About the | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
status of the islands. I disagree. Even though there have been UN | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
resolutions going back to 1965? resolutions to suggest that people | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
talk and talking is always a good way to resolve differences but you | :18:15. | :18:22. | |
have got to go into those talks with a willingness to genuinely | :18:22. | :18:29. | |
discuss the subject in hand. And I think the two sides are so far | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
apart on is that talks would not be productive. Do you think this has | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
become a particularly sensitive issue once again not just because | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
of the anniversary but because of the recognition they could be | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
significant oil under the Falkland Islands and around the Falkland | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
Islands? Well, one could take the view that Argentina far from | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
wanting to D colonise the Falklands would like to make the Falklands a | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
colony of Argentina in order that they can get their hands on the | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
resources which belong to that territory. Presumably that is part | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
of the risk that has been identified by some of the companies | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
involved, who have said they are worried that relations are so poor | :19:13. | :19:20. | |
that it could be a risk. One of the company is developing an oil field | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
said it would be foolhardy to dismiss the risk as nothing and | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
they had to think long and hard before signing, taking advantage -- | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
advice from the UK government, because they were worried. They | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
have taken advice and on balance, they have decided to go ahead, so | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
clearly, the risk is regarded as a manageable one. And they have had | :19:43. | :19:50. | |
to work around the nuisance that the Argentine activities were | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
trying to create. But they have done it successfully and they now | :19:55. | :20:02. | |
plan to go ahead with production in about 2017. It is extraordinary - | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
8.3 billion barrels being targeted in four Wells this year, three | :20:06. | :20:14. | |
times the size of the UK's reserves. You are sitting on a bonanza. | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
are told, but we are not counting any oil money and to it starts to | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
flow. The trouble is, it is not just flowing, is it? You have got | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
to get it out and distributed and sell it. Does not the example of | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
Sudan show that it is not enough to have oil, you must also have good | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
relations with your neighbours to develop that potential. The oil | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
companies will be confident they can develop that potential in spite | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
of interference from Argentina and there are many other markets in the | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
world. You have still got to get it to those markets. It is unfortunate | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
that Argentina chooses not to have supply for people working there | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
with some of the equipment they need and some of the services they | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
need, which could be beneficial to them as well. Not just Argentina, | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
is it? The Brazilian Foreign Minister says that all Latin- | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
American nations support Argentine sovereignty. And several countries | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
have supported Argentina in its concern to promote that. It is very | :21:19. | :21:26. | |
clear that Argentina is leaning on all of its neighbours to make these | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
pronouncements at the end of the various regional conferences that | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
they have. But the fact is, apart from oil, it is business as usual | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
with those countries. Or perhaps they actually agree with Argentina | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
that you are an anachronism? That it makes no sense for an island 300 | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
miles from the South American mainland to be attached to the UK? | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
Perhaps, but if you extend the geographical argument, you change | :21:53. | :22:00. | |
the map of Europe. Both the geographical and historical | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
arguments have huge flaws. If you start putting boundaries back | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
before 1833, the world will be a very different place. Can you be | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
that confident that this will continue to be the case? As the rat | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
in that report which was published at the beginning of this year | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
showed, Britain has made previous overtures to Argentina. It was | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
prepared to consider in the 1960s some form of handover of | :22:27. | :22:34. | |
sovereignty. It was prepared in 1974, and that might have happened | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
were it not for the death of the President of a heart attack one | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
week later, to hand over sovereignty and entertain the | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
prospect of dual nationality. Things could change. Things changed | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
in 1982 when Argentina invaded and that changed the situation. There | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
is no going back? Unfortunately not. On that basis, if there is no going | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
back from your point of view, and you were confident that islanders | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
feel that way as well, once you have that referendum and if it | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
endorses your view, why not on those terms and with that | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
confidence talk with Argentina? will gladly talk with them about | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
matters of mutual interest? -- mutual interest. Have you made that | :23:23. | :23:30. | |
approach? We have indeed. A letter was handed over to them by one of | :23:30. | :23:35. |