Leila Shahid - Palestinian Authority Ambassador to the EU HARDtalk

before -- in August last year. It is now time for HARDtalk.

The politics of Palestine are in a state of flux. Palestinian

Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and the stalwarts of his Fatah

movement face a crisis of credibility; they've been

outmanoeuvred in recent weeks by the hardliners in Hamas whose

message is defiance, not diplomacy. My guest today is the Palestinian

Authority envoy to the European Union Leila Shahid. Is the game up

for Palestine's old guard Leila Shahid in Brussels, welcome

to HARDtalk. Thank you. How much credibility do you believe that

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has right now? With

his own people? I think the historic success of the vote at the

UN for a non-member observer status for Palestine as a state has

reinforced tremendously the choices made by a keen for the last 30

years, which are choices of a negotiation for peace, based on the

to step solution. I would say his failure

failure of the peace process for almost 20 years. Yasser Arafat,

when we started the negotiations, ask mum would and bass and the

vice-president at the time to be in charge of these talks, both in

Washington and in Oslo. -- Mahmoud Abbas. The fact we failed to end

the occupation and even implement in Oslo after the hazardous --

assassination, undermined the authority. It continues to

undermine that entire approach. You say he made the choice for a

negotiated peace understood but that choice lead to failure. Yes.

But part of that choice, of course, is to get the world to recognise us

as a nation, as a state, with clear terms, borders, with the right of

refugees. That was all done through an overwhelming majority vote at

the UN in New York on 20th November. But if I may say so, I imagine that

did excite you, particularly as you work in the diplomatic world.

Don't worry. We also saw a joyous scenes in Palestine. It is, in the

end, symbolism. It's a token. But it does not, as Susan Rice said,

change the realities of life on the ground for Palestinians. I think

you are totally wrong. You do not understand the Palestinian issue,

that's all about recognition and about the duty of the world powers

and particularly the members of the UN in implementing the solutions

that they have voted. We are not fighting over the number of

kilometres or the prestige of Leila Shahid or others. You are too

influenced by the American position. It is important because it has made

the terms of reference of what has been the basis of negotiation for

20 years now been adopted position of the 138 states that voted. This

is not nothing. Of course we need to implement this in terms of

diplomacy. We need to make Britain, France, the EU, the US and all of

the important members of the Security Council and the General

Assembly implement the resolutions. We need the political will of the

member state. Obviously, it is not new that we have chosen, since Oslo

and the negotiated settlement. Have mass has chosen since 1987, 20

years ago, a military one. The choices are clear. Not only clear

for the Palestinians, they are clear for the Israelis and they

should be clear for the world community. What you have, when you

actually strip it down, is the same Kimmel -- diplomatic status in the

UN as the Vatican. That is what was actually achieved. No... The cold

hard fact is that in the latest opinion polling evidence, 20% of

Palestinians currently believe that peace can and will come through the

strategic toys you and your boss, Mahmoud Abbas, have made, which is

Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations. -- choice. You know

why it is 20%? It is not because the President can't deliver, it is

because Binyamin Netanyahu is not interested in peace. The boat is

not in the camp of the President or Binyamin Netanyahu. The vote is in

the camp of the world community. We are talking about an area of the

world which is the heart of the Mediterranean, the Middle East. We

have turmoil in Egypt, a war going on against Syria, Lebanon waiting,

two superpowers who want to have their own like Iran and Turkey. The

stakes are very high. The whole world needs peace. But I am

struggling to understand your logic. You tell me there can be no going

back on the strategic choice for a negotiated peace with Israel, and

yet we are talking about an Israeli government, soon they will have

elections, and we are talking about a government that since the vote at

the UN has pushed through proposals for another 3,000 housing units on

occupied land, which will continue to build that ring around Arab east

Jerusalem. A government that will now take, we believe for the next

four months at least, hundreds of millions of dollars of tax receipts,

which should be handed to Palestinian authorities and they

will not hand them over. You insist this government must be negotiating

partner. But we are not talking to that government. We are talking to

you, to the union,... But I can't make peace with you. The only

people who can make peace with you are the Israelis. But they do not

come from us. They come from part of the world community, with whom

the EU has won relations with. The American one military relations.

Britain has abstained from recognising Palestine in order not

to disturb Mr Binyamin Netanyahu. There are means to make Israel

accountable, like we made so be accountable, like we make all

occupying powers accountable. The problem is not only Israel, it is

the duty of Israel in its World relations, with economic or

financial or diplomatic. Of course they can always be a return to

violence or military operations, that will be led by whoever

believes in it. Hamas or any other movement. But we are saying there

is still a chance, if the world community has the will, to make his

rail accountable and to end the QUT of Israel in terms of up to two --

of UK Nishi, annexation, settlement. I think what we have seen in the

policies of Binyamin Netanyahu is a consequence of his impunity.

Europeans should take care of their own actions. How can Europeans are

being attacked in such an arrogant way by the Foreign Minister of

Israel? How come they received him and gave him, in the new Israeli-

European association agreement, all the trade agreements Israel wants?

There is a responsibility in third parties. It is not only a matter of

between the President and Mr Netanyahu. The more you attack

Binyamin Netanyahu or the Foreign Minister of Israel, the more I

think you are simply using this sort of rhetoric and language which

fits more easily into the strategic vision of how mass. We have seen

the exiled leader of Hamas in the last few days make what he would

call a triumphant return to Palestinian soil in the Gaza Strip.

His message was utterly uncompromising. He said that

liberation will come to every inch of Palestinian soil, from the

Mediterranean seek to the River Jordan. That is a message that is

absolutely unyielding and uncompromising. Backed by violence

from time to time, which right now appears to appeal to an increasing

constituency on the ground in the Palestinian territories.

surprising, given the fact that there has been no implementation of

the two-state solution. We did go to the UN in order to stave this to

take -- to state solution. Europeans pay lip service to the

two-state solution, including President Obama. What we are trying

to do is implement the two states solution. There is a difference

between our choice and Hamas' toys. It is obvious that when you are

occupied for 45 years, you do not expect me to be nice to my occupier.

-- choice. There is something which is obvious, that this occupation

has been too long and has been totally UN sanctioned and the world

community has shown total failure in making Israel respect its own

commitments. -- UN sanctions. point I am getting at is the

Palestinians have a choice. Perhaps the nature of the choice is best

summed up by an analyst who, I dare say, you know. 11 his analyst.

know him very well. This he wrote the other day. -- a Lebanese

analyst. This was after the exchange of fire between Hannah's

and Israel. It was called the killer of defence operation. He

said Hamas has strong lines for the policy of resisted and violence.

They have achieved more grounds of through violence than the

Palestinian Authority has to non- violence. This is his opinion. If

you look at what happened, you realise that Hamas was a motor --

motivated because it realised that it could not perform a longer

military occupation by Israel and another operation like the one that

destroyed Gaza and killed 1,400 civilians three years ago. This is

why I think the military operation... You might think in

that speech there was only radical expression but the other speech was

also an acceptance that maybe military means are not the only

ones. The Palestinians ultimately want neither negotiate since

forever or launching missile. What they want is freedom, sovereignty

and dignity. Anybody that can bring them that will... That is the

message they are expressing. There is a question about how you get

there and have you retain your dignity. One other thing, comparing

and contrasting the message with the President's message. It gets to

the issue of the right of return, as it is called, for Palestinians

who in 1948 and 1967 were removed from their family homes and their

land. They were not removed, they were ethnically cleansed. Not

removed. Including my own family. am just sticking to... That is the

way it happened. Let's get to the heart of the matter. Mahmoud Abbas

told Israel's channel to that he would like to return to his family

home, inside Israel. He said as a visitor, it is my right to see it

but not to live there. He went on to say, I believe the West Bank and

Gaza is Palestine, the other parts are Israel. Is that your position

as well? We have recognised Israel in 1988, but Israel has not

recognised Palestine. We recognised the borders between the two states.

We also have insisted that our right of return under the

resolution 194 of the General Assembly of the United Nations is

the basis for our negotiations on a right of return. I want to get more

personal than that. If you let me just finish my sentences! But you

gave me a diplomatic answer. I want your personal answer. I am trying

to finish the sentence! I have the right for my right to return, if I

want to. If I don't want to, it is also a right. The President is six

-- is expressing that. He says every refugee will have the right

to choose whether he wants to return, stay where he is or whether

he wants to get compensation. This is Resolution 194 and is what was

expressed and what most Let me talk about the idea of

reconciliation between the Palestinian Authority driving force,

and Hamas. In Turkey, in the last day or two, Mahmoud Abbas has said

that his key focus is on establishing Palestinian unity. Why

is it in that case, the Palestinian Authority continue to suppress

Hamas activity right across the West Bank? They suppress Hamas

activity when Hamas are fit it -- activity is against the agreement

that we signed. We are the responsible authority. When Hamas

does political activity it is most welcome, we have allowed them to

celebrate his 25th anniversary in the West Bank as much as anyone

else, but when it is military activity against the agreement that

we signed with the Israeli authorities, it is our duty to

implement what we signed. We take seriously what we signed. The

President said that when we have considered that we have totally

failed and we do not believe in negotiated agreement, then we would

take the decisions to say that we have failed and the Palestinians

are free to choose any other path they want, including a military one.

Where does that leave freedom of expression, the most basic sorts of

human rights. I am astonished... you accuse me of interrupting. The

human rights report a 2012 say the Palestinian authorities secrete his

services arbitrarily detained hundreds of Hamas people. --

security services. Credible allegations of torture by the

security services continue. That is the reality, isn't it? I am

astonished that you are so concerned about the violations on

our side but not the five Nations on the other side, including Israel.

-- the violations. It is unfortunate that there are

violations, not just against Hamas, but anybody who is perceived

against the stability -- as a threat against the stability of

beat a authority. You cannot have a legal system under occupation. You

have to be a fully fledged a democratic state because you need a

parliament, you need laws, in the constitution, we do not have any of

this in order to have a legal system that really what is over the

institutions, whether they are the police or the Secret Service, and

we have a lot to do. I am the ambassador to the EU. The EU what

is much more closely than any other NGO on violations of human rights.

There are all of these action plan negotiations, including on the

government. It is a daily struggle to achieve it. We have achieved

everything. I am wondering about the rhetoric. Mahmoud Abbas tells

the Palestinian people that achieving this UN observer status

is the birth certificate of the Palestinian state, but clearly many

people would disagree with that, but then he goes on to say, the

whole world will now and must see a single state when looking at

Palestine. He says that unity, a reconciliation with Hamas is just

around the corner. It does not seem credible. You add around the corner.

If you want to look at the story of the Palestinian national movement

since 1964, since it was found dead, -- found it, and I think the

pressure on the President, but also on the leaders of Hamas, is

tremendous. Some members of the population will have a member from

Hamas and a member of the authority in the same family. This is a

struggle that has been going on for 65 years. We are not afraid of the

diversity of opinions, what we want to do is to reach a solution to end

the divisions. We cannot accept that Gaza and the West Bank is

divided. The same forces that are talking to Hamas, including in

Britain, this is why we can only go back to elections in order to give

everybody a chance, and the population would choose. But in

order to do that, we need a reconciliation, and I think

division has been very negative for all sides. This is what Mahmoud

Abbas would try to do in the coming weeks. Even when Hamas refused to

fight in the recent municipal elections, that I did not do very

well. The turnout was only over 40%, including in some of the key towns,

and they could not even win a majority. Let me just explain. It

is more complicated. We had more than one list. Not the official

list. The very much not the official list. But they are members.

One reason why so many members of the organisation I deeply critical

of the leadership is corruption. You must be aware, sitting in

Brussels, representing them, there is a cascade of allegations of

corruption going to the very top of the Palestinian Authority. Over the

last two years, we had seen the leadership stayed fairly --

steadfastly refuse to prove whether these allegations stand-up. The EU

has the most great institutions to observe corruption. There is

corruption but not what it you think. It is not about stealing

money. I cannot imagine that at all. Two years ago, the anti-corruption

chief who had been commissioned to look into corruption, told the

press that there was massive corruption in the Palestinian

Authority. He said that people are fed up with the financial

corruption and mismanagement. make the questions and the answers.

The official institutions of the EU, who are in charge of corruption of

all the parties, has not been able to show one case of corruption in

terms of stealing money. The corruption is in the system. What

we need is to go back to a normal life, a normal life means of

freedom, sovereignty, elections, democratic institutions, a

parliament and a President. All of this means an end of occupation.

There is no way you are going to convince me that you can build

democracies without freedom, citizens cannot express themselves,

they would not be able to protect their own rights and

accomplishments, unless they are free to do so. We have not had a

working parliament for the last five years. For all these reasons,

I think we have a lot of hard work to do, and in order to do it, we

are sure that we need reconciliation, and ended to

occupation, freedom and statehood. To finish on the thought of

corruption and where it fits into the big picture, you know because

your own President said that the economy situation, the budget

situation is very bad. It is close to collapse in his words. He is

desperately trying to give the Arab -- get the Arab states to give him

more money. At the same time, we see the Congress are holding

hearings about corruption in the Palestinian establishment. Why

would be key donors continue to give hundreds of millions of

dollars to the Palestinian Authority if this quote a quote

plutocracy continues. You seem not to read this report. The

transparency, accountability of the government of Mahmoud Abbas is

probably better than a lot of the member states of the region. With

respect, I do read those reports. I read the Palestinian former

investigators who accuse the key officials in your authority of

corruption, I read how many Palestinians on the ground believe

that there is dishonesty at the top of your administration. There is

lots of sourcing for this, and you seem to be adamant that not a penny

has been stolen. I am talking about the pennies that the donors give it.

I can promise you, if there has been one single penny stolen from

donor money, there would not be any donor money. What is not alone in

his relations that have some nepotism between some parties, and

this is a public discussion. It is a more public discussion in a

country like Palestine under occupation than many independent

states, including in the EU, because of corruption on for

Oceanway comes with politics, and particularly when there is a