On the Road: Teodoro Obiang - President, Equatorial Guinea HARDtalk

year. That is the summary. Now on BBC News, HARDtalk is on

HARDtalk is on the Road in Equatorial Guinea. A tiny, oil rich

nation in West Africa. There is enormous wealth here but most of

the people live in poverty. Why? That's a question for my guest

today, President Theodore Obiang, one of the longest serving heads of

state in the world. He calls himself a moderniser, a reformer,

his critics say he and his family have systematically looted this

country and crushed human rights. How will history judge one of

President Theodore Obiang, welcome to HARDtalk. You have great good

fortune that 20 years ago you discovered oil in this country. It

has made the state immensely wealthy. Why is it, given that

wealth, that the majority of people Mr President, when you say there's

no poverty, you must know, as I do, that a couple of kilometres from

this very fine presidential palace, there are people living without

safe and clean drinking water, without access to good health care,

without access to decent schools for their children. This is the

kind of poverty that should not exist in a country that enjoys

But you have had 33 years. It seems extraordinary that after that

length of time, according to UN and the World Bank, we have a life

expectancy for men little more than 50 years old in this country. We

have more than 10% of children who are dying before they reach the age

of five. These are figures that suggest frankly that you have

Mr President, there are investigators and legal officials

in the United States, in France, who have blocked at the way in

which the state finances have been handled in this country. And they

have reached some very negative conclusions. Legal documents in the

United States refer to, and this is a direct quote, "An ongoing family

criminal conspiracy," Referring to you and your family and the

handling of the oil revenues in this country. How do you respond to

If everything was handled in a legitimate way, and was all about

the state rather than your family benefiting, how do you explain that

your own son apparently has assets in the United States, which include

a Malibu mansion, a private jet, a collection of Michael Jackson

memorabilia worth $2 million, in total assets worth hundreds of

millions of US dollars, which of course the United States now wants

to seize and take from you, because they believe they are sourced from

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illegal means. How can you explain We are able to scrutinise some of

the information already. I don't know if you have read the 100 pages

of the Justice Department report into the case of your son, Teodorin

Obiang. It goes into great detail of exactly what he did when he was

in charge of the Logging and Forestry Ministry. He, apparently,

according to the United States authorities, had companies pay

millions of dollars in kickbacks to himself. At one point he is said to

have imposed a tax of 28 US dollars on every log that was exported from

your country into a bank account that he personally controlled. Are

Bearing in mind what we have already discussed in our interview

the fact there are people living in this country, many of them, without

access to clean drinking water, still struggling to find a job. Is

it right, is it acceptable, that your own son, for example in Paris,

has a mansion worth almost EUR200 million, has a fleet of a dozen

luxury cars, including Ferraris, Bugattis, Rolls-Royces, and he has

bought antiques and art work worth millions of euros. Do you not think

But hang on, with respect... How There is a very difficult line to

draw between the state and the family. We are talking about your

son, who is now the vice-president. We are also talking about a

government which includes your other son, who is Minister of

Energy and Mines. We are talking about a government that includes

your brother, who is Minister of Defence. It looks as though you run

The French government has seized the Paris mansion, the art works,

the cars, and is seeking a legal action against your son. Are you

prepared to see your son go to Paris and defend himself and his

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Leave aside France, what do you say to the people in your own country,

and I have spoken to some of them, who say that you and your family

have stolen... Stolen the resources and the assets that rightfully

belong to all of the people of this If I may say so, you talk about the

infrastructure, the development that you are doing in this country.

Let me ask you one very simple question, how many presidential

palaces are there now in this But if I may... If I may say so,

you have very fine presidential residences in Malabo, another one

in Malabo, one in Bata, one that is going to be built in Oyala, how

Leave aside the houses, I want to talk about your planned

administrative capital in Oyala. It is an immense project. We were

lucky enough to visit just a couple of days ago. So far you have begun

construction work on a major new university, also on a luxury hotel

and conference centre and golf course. I am curious to know why

you think that is the best way to develop this country economically

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and socially in the interests of I understand. I just wondered, the

two projects we have already talked about, the university, hotel resort,

they are going to cost more than half a billion euros, I just wonder

if it is the best use of the oil money that this nation has. Do you

believe it is the right priority I need to be informed about what

happened in this country, but surely your own people need to be

informed as well. For example, events in North Africa concerned

with the Arab uprising. Why has so little information being given

about the events in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia? Do you fear similar

The International Committee to Protect Journalists has your

country in the top five most censored countries in the world.

Why do so many international organisations worry about the

I do want to ask you about your relations with the international

community. I think it is fair to say you have worked very hard with

the African Cup of Nations, the African Union summit that you have

held, you have worked very hard to improve the international standing

of Equatorial Guinea. Yet, we have seen since 2004 an attempted coup

which involved international mercenaries and money coming from

Mark Thatcher, the son of the former British Prime Minister,

Margaret Thatcher. Do you think the Western nations in particular want

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Do you think that governments... You think that the governments you

mentioned were complicit in the If that is true Mr President, what

you say, if it is true, why is it that you still allow US oil

companies to dominate oil production in this country? I look

at the figures and I think that the biggest 10 companies involved in

oil exploration are American. You seem to have a very complicated

I just wonder for the future if you see a strategic shift for this

country. I have been very struck as I have travelled around the country

by the number of infrastructure projects that are being run and

financed by Chinese companies and A final question, last year you

held a referendum on a new constitution. It sets term limits

on the presidency of two seven-year terms being the maximum for a

president in Equatorial Guinea. Because of your presence for a long