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year. That is the summary. Now on BBC News, HARDtalk is on | :00:03. | :00:13. | |
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HARDtalk is on the Road in Equatorial Guinea. A tiny, oil rich | :00:30. | :00:40. | |
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nation in West Africa. There is enormous wealth here but most of | :00:41. | :00:50. | |
the people live in poverty. Why? That's a question for my guest | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
today, President Theodore Obiang, one of the longest serving heads of | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
state in the world. He calls himself a moderniser, a reformer, | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
his critics say he and his family have systematically looted this | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
country and crushed human rights. How will history judge one of | :01:03. | :01:13. | |
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President Theodore Obiang, welcome to HARDtalk. You have great good | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
fortune that 20 years ago you discovered oil in this country. It | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
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has made the state immensely wealthy. Why is it, given that | :01:35. | :01:45. | |
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wealth, that the majority of people Mr President, when you say there's | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
no poverty, you must know, as I do, that a couple of kilometres from | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
this very fine presidential palace, there are people living without | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
safe and clean drinking water, without access to good health care, | :02:33. | :02:43. | |
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without access to decent schools for their children. This is the | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
kind of poverty that should not exist in a country that enjoys | :02:47. | :02:56. | |
:02:57. | :03:36. | ||
But you have had 33 years. It seems extraordinary that after that | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
length of time, according to UN and the World Bank, we have a life | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
expectancy for men little more than 50 years old in this country. We | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
have more than 10% of children who are dying before they reach the age | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
of five. These are figures that suggest frankly that you have | :03:50. | :04:00. | |
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Mr President, there are investigators and legal officials | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
in the United States, in France, who have blocked at the way in | :04:38. | :04:46. | |
which the state finances have been handled in this country. And they | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
have reached some very negative conclusions. Legal documents in the | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
United States refer to, and this is a direct quote, "An ongoing family | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
criminal conspiracy," Referring to you and your family and the | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
handling of the oil revenues in this country. How do you respond to | :05:04. | :05:14. | |
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If everything was handled in a legitimate way, and was all about | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
the state rather than your family benefiting, how do you explain that | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
your own son apparently has assets in the United States, which include | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
a Malibu mansion, a private jet, a collection of Michael Jackson | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
memorabilia worth $2 million, in total assets worth hundreds of | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
millions of US dollars, which of course the United States now wants | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
to seize and take from you, because they believe they are sourced from | :06:14. | :06:24. | |
:06:24. | :06:24. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds | :06:24. | :07:18. | |
illegal means. How can you explain We are able to scrutinise some of | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
the information already. I don't know if you have read the 100 pages | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
of the Justice Department report into the case of your son, Teodorin | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
Obiang. It goes into great detail of exactly what he did when he was | :07:29. | :07:37. | |
in charge of the Logging and Forestry Ministry. He, apparently, | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
according to the United States authorities, had companies pay | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
millions of dollars in kickbacks to himself. At one point he is said to | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
have imposed a tax of 28 US dollars on every log that was exported from | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
your country into a bank account that he personally controlled. Are | :07:53. | :08:03. | |
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Bearing in mind what we have already discussed in our interview | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
the fact there are people living in this country, many of them, without | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
access to clean drinking water, still struggling to find a job. Is | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
it right, is it acceptable, that your own son, for example in Paris, | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
has a mansion worth almost EUR200 million, has a fleet of a dozen | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
luxury cars, including Ferraris, Bugattis, Rolls-Royces, and he has | :08:55. | :09:05. | |
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bought antiques and art work worth millions of euros. Do you not think | :09:05. | :09:15. | |
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But hang on, with respect... How There is a very difficult line to | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
draw between the state and the family. We are talking about your | :09:47. | :09:54. | |
son, who is now the vice-president. We are also talking about a | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
government which includes your other son, who is Minister of | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
Energy and Mines. We are talking about a government that includes | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
your brother, who is Minister of Defence. It looks as though you run | :10:06. | :10:16. | |
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The French government has seized the Paris mansion, the art works, | :10:46. | :10:55. | |
the cars, and is seeking a legal action against your son. Are you | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
prepared to see your son go to Paris and defend himself and his | :10:59. | :11:09. | |
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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds | :11:09. | :12:06. | |
Leave aside France, what do you say to the people in your own country, | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
and I have spoken to some of them, who say that you and your family | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
have stolen... Stolen the resources and the assets that rightfully | :12:13. | :12:23. | |
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belong to all of the people of this If I may say so, you talk about the | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
infrastructure, the development that you are doing in this country. | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
Let me ask you one very simple question, how many presidential | :13:00. | :13:09. | |
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palaces are there now in this But if I may... If I may say so, | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
you have very fine presidential residences in Malabo, another one | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
in Malabo, one in Bata, one that is going to be built in Oyala, how | :13:30. | :13:40. | |
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Leave aside the houses, I want to talk about your planned | :14:00. | :14:10. | |
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administrative capital in Oyala. It is an immense project. We were | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
lucky enough to visit just a couple of days ago. So far you have begun | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
construction work on a major new university, also on a luxury hotel | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
and conference centre and golf course. I am curious to know why | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
you think that is the best way to develop this country economically | :14:34. | :14:44. | |
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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds | :14:44. | :15:36. | |
and socially in the interests of I understand. I just wondered, the | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
two projects we have already talked about, the university, hotel resort, | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
they are going to cost more than half a billion euros, I just wonder | :15:43. | :15:53. | |
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if it is the best use of the oil money that this nation has. Do you | :16:02. | :16:12. | |
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believe it is the right priority I need to be informed about what | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
happened in this country, but surely your own people need to be | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
informed as well. For example, events in North Africa concerned | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
with the Arab uprising. Why has so little information being given | :16:28. | :16:36. | |
about the events in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia? Do you fear similar | :16:36. | :16:46. | |
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The International Committee to Protect Journalists has your | :17:15. | :17:24. | |
country in the top five most censored countries in the world. | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
Why do so many international organisations worry about the | :17:27. | :17:37. | |
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I do want to ask you about your relations with the international | :17:56. | :18:06. | |
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community. I think it is fair to say you have worked very hard with | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
the African Cup of Nations, the African Union summit that you have | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
held, you have worked very hard to improve the international standing | :18:14. | :18:22. | |
of Equatorial Guinea. Yet, we have seen since 2004 an attempted coup | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
which involved international mercenaries and money coming from | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
Mark Thatcher, the son of the former British Prime Minister, | :18:27. | :18:37. | |
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Margaret Thatcher. Do you think the Western nations in particular want | :18:39. | :18:49. | |
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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds | :18:49. | :19:48. | |
Do you think that governments... You think that the governments you | :19:48. | :19:58. | |
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mentioned were complicit in the If that is true Mr President, what | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
you say, if it is true, why is it that you still allow US oil | :20:42. | :20:52. | |
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companies to dominate oil production in this country? I look | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
at the figures and I think that the biggest 10 companies involved in | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
oil exploration are American. You seem to have a very complicated | :21:12. | :21:22. | |
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I just wonder for the future if you see a strategic shift for this | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
country. I have been very struck as I have travelled around the country | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
by the number of infrastructure projects that are being run and | :21:48. | :21:58. | |
:21:58. | :22:32. | ||
financed by Chinese companies and A final question, last year you | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
held a referendum on a new constitution. It sets term limits | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
on the presidency of two seven-year terms being the maximum for a | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
president in Equatorial Guinea. Because of your presence for a long | :22:42. | :22:52. | |
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