Browse content similar to Naguib Sawiris - Businessman and founder, Free Egyptians Party. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Park Chung-hee. Now it is tone for HARDtalk. -- now it is time. How | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
far is the Arab world's most populous and influential country | :00:18. | :00:25. | |
becoming polarised between Islamist as secularist forces? The current | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
Ward for a new constitution in Egypt has exposed divisions which | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
at times have erupted into violence on the streets betweets betwe | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
supporters and the poor is of the Muslim Brotherhood and the Islamist | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
President of Mohammed Morsi. My guest today is the Coptic Christian | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
and billionaire, Naguib Sawiris. Who has a better claim to be | :00:50. | :01:00. | |
:01:00. | :01:16. | ||
democratic, the Islamists or their Naguib Sawiris, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
Thank you. I put it to you that liberals and secularists like you | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
are finding it hard to accept that Islamist parties are more popular | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
in Egypt. I think if you do an election today bridge is supervised | :01:32. | :01:40. | |
by international observers and his transparent and clean, unlike the | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
rigged voting of nowhere, the people would not vote for them any | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
more. They would not have a majority any more. We cannot deal | :01:48. | :01:54. | |
with hypothetical. In the elections that we had one year or so ago, the | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
Islamist parties, the Muslim brother up that -- the Muslim | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
Brotherhood and other Islamist parties won the majority of the | :02:05. | :02:13. | |
vote. What I am seeing is the circumstances, with the new | :02:13. | :02:21. | |
government of Egypt, it hearing by a democratic rules, -- adhering to | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
democratic rules, there will be changes. They will not control | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
newspapers. They will not put their own people everywhere. That will | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
allow a real democratic process to happen. People are open for a | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
Democratic revival immediate. Nothing has happened. -- people are | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
hoping. I am claiming that today, if an honest, transparent and | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
supervised election is run, they will not be so popular. You know | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
there was a report by an American polling organisation in February | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
that said a majority of the Egyptians not all we want democracy | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
but they want and enhanced role for Islam. This is true. You're going | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
against the grain? Egyptians are religious by nature. I have no | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
problems with any religion. I believe in separation of state and | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
religion. That is my nature. I am not good to put my views on the | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
majority of the people. I accept that because Egyptians are | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
religious. Between February and now, the mood has changed. People have | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
changed their opinions. I was willing to cooperate with Mohammed | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
Morsi and the Muslims to elevate Egypt out of the economic mess it | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
is in. We were not given a chance because, but respect, they made a | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
fatal mistake. They went against the opposition. They do not | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
understand the fact that there is a counter opinion in democracy. They | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
went against freedom of speech. They went on a power struggle to | :04:00. | :04:10. | |
:04:10. | :04:10. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 115 seconds | :04:10. | :06:05. | |
control all of the areas of power. It has to do with freedom and | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
fundamental Sherman writes. I can tell you something simply, this was | :06:10. | :06:20. | |
:06:20. | :06:30. | ||
given to the UN to see whether it On the role of Islam, because | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
critics like you say that it is them a greater part in the state, | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
it is not much difference. Islam was the religion of the state and | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
Arabic was the language. The principle of Sharia law is the main | :06:44. | :06:54. | |
:06:54. | :06:57. | ||
source of legislation. Article 219 is new. It includes foundations, | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
Wall's, in jurisprudence, and documents of Islam. What is the | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
problem with that? That is a wording that has no exact legal | :07:09. | :07:17. | |
definition. You would allow people to elaborate about what is right | :07:17. | :07:24. | |
and wrong according to their own suggestions. That is the reality. | :07:24. | :07:31. | |
But the main authority, Sunni it is lamb, when it comes to women's | :07:31. | :07:41. | |
:07:41. | :07:41. | ||
rights... and you want a constitution, the definition of | :07:41. | :07:51. | |
:07:51. | :07:54. | ||
writes... why not? Why are you denying us a real democratic regime, | :07:54. | :08:01. | |
a constitution, like the US constitution, like any other | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
country in the world that has a constitution that says, every time | :08:05. | :08:12. | |
that you want to do something... said you'd that the principles of | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
Sharia law, the main legislation, is in the existing constitution. | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
When it came to it religious minorities, you are a member of the | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
10% of Coptic Christians in Egypt, in the old constitution, there was | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
an article about religious minorities. In this new | :08:30. | :08:39. | |
constitution, it said the principles of legislation, I deeply, | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
you are going to be better off because the minorities can follow | :08:42. | :08:50. | |
their own religious codes. Which should be more of a guarantee. | :08:50. | :08:58. | |
agreed this is better. But the first half is completely undefined. | :08:58. | :09:05. | |
Its words are undefined. The powers that can be given to religious | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
forces that want to interfere, it is not my problem, Christian or | :09:10. | :09:17. | |
Muslim, my problem is human rights, freedom of speech, minority rights. | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
I was just putting to you and I want to know, we have seen a great | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
deal of violence on the streets in Egypt, this constitutional | :09:27. | :09:36. | |
referendum is... at 51%, can you agree on a referendum? Kenya have a | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
constitution that has only been accepted by half of the people. -- | :09:40. | :09:50. | |
:09:50. | :09:57. | ||
65 % said no to the constitution. The highest degree is in Cairo. 65 | :09:57. | :10:04. | |
% said no to the constitution. Even at that ends up 51 %, any | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
constitution is taken by an absolute measure. That means at | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
least 75 %, two thirds. I do not want to second-guess the result but | :10:14. | :10:20. | |
we do not have it but you had mentioned woman's rights -- women's | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
rights, you say that there is no discrimination in the draft. The | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
earlier article specifically linking women's rights to Sharia | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
law was dropped. Arguably, this new constitution gives woman more | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
rights. Divorced and widowed women, can often get a hard deal in Egypt, | :10:39. | :10:46. | |
a better protected. I do not agree. It I have the articles here. It | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
seems to not say anything. Why should women be discriminated | :10:51. | :10:58. | |
against in this constitution? is no explicit definition that | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
women have equal rights. There is no state and that women have equal | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
rights. That is the problem. does not say women, specifically. | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
Article 30 says citizens are equal before the law at equal in rights | :11:13. | :11:21. | |
and obligations. Women are citizens. Aren't they? I am trying to explain | :11:22. | :11:29. | |
to you that admitting his part is not accepting the fact, I do not | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
want to go through a religious context, but the Midlands have | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
their own theories about what women are. I am not an expert on that. I | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
do not want to go through it. talked about freedom of speech. | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
There are 51 articles guaranteeing personal freedoms of the draft | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
constitution compared to the old one which had 24, including the | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
right of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. With all | :11:56. | :12:03. | |
respect, if you read the details, it has more obstacles than the last | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
constitution in terms of freedom of speech. Those other differences. | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
Newspapers can write but they have to write what is true and they | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
cannot deviate... Be going to definition. What is true and what | :12:18. | :12:25. | |
is not a true. You are opening the door for punishment. The draft | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
constitution is approved by a majority of people in Egypt, | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
however slim, would you accept it? No. It has not been done in a | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
transparent way. There has been so much for us in, it is beyond belief. | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
It we defied minute program, I cannot tell you. Schneider 2% of | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
the Egyptian judges boycotted it. - - 92 %. Did you do that? A number | :12:52. | :13:02. | |
:13:02. | :13:02. | ||
of judges. That is why the vote was spread. Judges, teachers, civil | :13:02. | :13:11. | |
servants. If 92 %, of which the people's conscious agrees, they | :13:11. | :13:19. | |
would not be this mood and because it was not according to the law. It | :13:19. | :13:27. | |
does not represent everybody. Can the results of this referendum be | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
correct? There is 3,000 complaints which have been lodged with the | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
committee's, attacking all the procedures. There were committees | :13:38. | :13:45. | |
where Coptic Christians were bullied not to vote. Women were | :13:45. | :13:52. | |
left to stand for six or seven would get tired and leave. So you | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
are claiming irregularities. What happens if the constitution is | :13:57. | :14:07. | |
:14:07. | :14:09. | ||
not be accepted by the National Salvation Front. We will request it | :14:09. | :14:17. | |
is a void. You have many leading members, a UN atomic energy | :14:17. | :14:24. | |
inspector. This man has a conscience. Everybody does. So when | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
it is said that it bore atrophied political divisions, do you see | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
Egypt becoming more dangerous? is more dangerous. The document | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
does not reflect the discussions. It was thrown down the drain. This | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
is the document that is being sent. People think they will get 80 or 90 | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
% consent. You do not get that. You get 51 or 52 %. It is not a | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
document that is valid. It is void today and will be void for ever. | :14:58. | :15:06. | |
But someone says to be angry with the Muslim Brotherhood and hid us | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
as you wish, but preserve unity, and let's turn to the judgment of | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
the ballot box, he has a point. You are seeing the electoral process is | :15:16. | :15:23. | |
flawed. He has a point. What is the point, but you can run falsified | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
votes without supervision of judges, without any supervision. He knows | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
the outcome. He knows there were falsified votes. I would be | :15:34. | :15:41. | |
respected if it was transparent. The human rights associations were | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
deprived from attending. For the first time, they were allowed to | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
come in. The human rights organisations issued a statement | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
that they have never seen more falsification in a process than | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
this one. More to that effect, the only good 53 %. Can you imagine a | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
constitution where put the presenter people do not wanted. | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
What will you do now? There is an argument you will have to find an | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
accommodation. We're going back to the original, the only entity that | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
can protect us. That is the judges and the law and the courts which | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
are now, do you know this referendum happened while the | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
constitution was being surrounded by Tim is a brotherhood to prevent | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
the judges for going into the courts? They wanted to rely on the | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
legitimacy of the referendum. -- to rule. They knew they would rule | :16:40. | :16:48. | |
against illegitimacy. Can you call this a free referendum? They were | :16:48. | :16:58. | |
:16:58. | :17:01. | ||
surrounded by groups in order to So you are more critical of the | :17:01. | :17:09. | |
contents than the process... both. We do not have the time but the | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
devil is in the details. I am against both. The document and the | :17:13. | :17:22. | |
process. The secularists and the Liberals in Egypt cannot just wish | :17:22. | :17:30. | |
the Muslim Brotherhood away. Like ransacking the premises of the | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
Muslim Brotherhood... that is exactly wrong. I should just | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
explain, we have seen violence been perpetrated by secularistss, | :17:42. | :17:49. | |
perhaps still loyal to the former raging -- regime. They are all in | :17:49. | :17:59. | |
jail now. The people who committed the crimes... I condemn that | :17:59. | :18:09. | |
:18:09. | :18:12. | ||
completely. I have a formula for you. We have not seen the Islamists | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
do well just in Egypt, but into an easier, or the Post Arab Spring | :18:17. | :18:27. | |
countries... -- in Tunisia. The point that I want to make, the | :18:27. | :18:34. | |
President in Tunisia has reached an accommodation, and I put it you, | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
that you set tourists and liberals will have to find an accommodation | :18:39. | :18:46. | |
with the Muslim Brotherhood. -- secularists. We made a statement | :18:46. | :18:54. | |
the day before yesterday. If you want to force the Egyptians into a | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
lifestyle that they do not want, or would you want to succeed? If you | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
want to succeed, we will help you in the economy, run the country, we | :19:04. | :19:12. | |
will help our country stand up and become... economic prosperity, but | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
the one condition that you need to understand, we will not be bullied, | :19:17. | :19:27. | |
:19:27. | :19:30. | ||
we would not be scared, there is a conspiracy, and they have their own | :19:30. | :19:38. | |
hooligans going to the district attorney... this will not work. We | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
are ready to co-operate with them, help the country go forward, to | :19:42. | :19:50. | |
stop this division that is threatening civil war. But there | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
are commentators, an Egyptian based in London, and an expert on | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
political Islam, who says it is not the Islamist who are these boilers, | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
it is the Liberals. -- these boilers. My advice is to go to | :20:09. | :20:19. | |
:20:19. | :20:21. | ||
Cairo and talk to people. The media is being prevented to speak. He is | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
pouring all his followers into the national newspapers. But they are | :20:26. | :20:33. | |
in touch with the masses. There was an article in Time magazine, which | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
said that in November, Islamists are good for democracy in Egypt | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
because they understood democracy better, not just better organised, | :20:44. | :20:54. | |
:20:54. | :20:56. | ||
but they campaigned hard are -- campaigned harder. 30 million of | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
Egyptians are illiterate, they knew how to appeal to the masses by | :21:00. | :21:10. | |
:21:10. | :21:13. | ||
saying, we will help you economically. Where is that? I want | :21:13. | :21:21. | |
to tell you something. We are partners. And they cannot wipe out | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
the Liberals. We will fight for what is important, freedom and | :21:26. | :21:35. | |
democracy. Having said so, and we are willing to be part of the | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
Government, but you need to respect us and not bully us. Are you being | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
bullied? I am being bullied. you are from the richest family in | :21:48. | :21:55. | |
Egypt, you have business interests in construction,... why would I | :21:55. | :22:02. | |
risk all of that? Why would I go into a decision, threaten all of my | :22:02. | :22:09. | |
well-being, my wealth, my family, why would I do that? Because to me | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
there is something more important. As a history professor at the | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
American University in Cairo says, in order to truly challenge the | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
Muslim Brotherhood in the next elections, the Liberals must engage | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
the Islamists on a different tack, such as the economy, rather than | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
fight an ideological battle. But can somebody like you, beach | :22:36. | :22:45. | |
:22:46. | :22:47. | ||
billionaire, really connect with those people, come can you? They | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
need to respect the democratic rules, which are very simple, you | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
cannot bully them, you cannot scare them, people should be free to | :22:58. | :23:06. | |
speak, why did we do a revolution? If they respect that, and they | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
understand that we are equal partners, I as a Christian Egyptian, | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
I'm just as Egyptian, I am an Egyptian first before my religion, | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
if they respect that, we will work with them. The masses are fed up. | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
They are fed up with all of these intellectuals, they want their | :23:30. | :23:37. | |
bread and butter, they want to go back to their lives. What is the | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
danger of Egypt becoming a theocracy? That is what we are in | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
now, that is what we are against. That has happened. We are sitting | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
here, fighting for the values that the West actually believes in, and | :23:52. | :23:59. | |
now the West is aligned with that government, and we have no | :23:59. | :24:08. |