Naguib Sawiris - Businessman and founder, Free Egyptians Party HARDtalk


Naguib Sawiris - Businessman and founder, Free Egyptians Party

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Park Chung-hee. Now it is tone for HARDtalk. -- now it is time. How

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far is the Arab world's most populous and influential country

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becoming polarised between Islamist as secularist forces? The current

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Ward for a new constitution in Egypt has exposed divisions which

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at times have erupted into violence on the streets betweets betwe

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supporters and the poor is of the Muslim Brotherhood and the Islamist

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President of Mohammed Morsi. My guest today is the Coptic Christian

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and billionaire, Naguib Sawiris. Who has a better claim to be

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democratic, the Islamists or their Naguib Sawiris, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you. I put it to you that liberals and secularists like you

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are finding it hard to accept that Islamist parties are more popular

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in Egypt. I think if you do an election today bridge is supervised

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by international observers and his transparent and clean, unlike the

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rigged voting of nowhere, the people would not vote for them any

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more. They would not have a majority any more. We cannot deal

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with hypothetical. In the elections that we had one year or so ago, the

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Islamist parties, the Muslim brother up that -- the Muslim

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Brotherhood and other Islamist parties won the majority of the

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vote. What I am seeing is the circumstances, with the new

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government of Egypt, it hearing by a democratic rules, -- adhering to

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democratic rules, there will be changes. They will not control

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newspapers. They will not put their own people everywhere. That will

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allow a real democratic process to happen. People are open for a

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Democratic revival immediate. Nothing has happened. -- people are

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hoping. I am claiming that today, if an honest, transparent and

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supervised election is run, they will not be so popular. You know

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there was a report by an American polling organisation in February

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that said a majority of the Egyptians not all we want democracy

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but they want and enhanced role for Islam. This is true. You're going

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against the grain? Egyptians are religious by nature. I have no

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problems with any religion. I believe in separation of state and

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religion. That is my nature. I am not good to put my views on the

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majority of the people. I accept that because Egyptians are

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religious. Between February and now, the mood has changed. People have

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changed their opinions. I was willing to cooperate with Mohammed

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Morsi and the Muslims to elevate Egypt out of the economic mess it

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is in. We were not given a chance because, but respect, they made a

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fatal mistake. They went against the opposition. They do not

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understand the fact that there is a counter opinion in democracy. They

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went against freedom of speech. They went on a power struggle to

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 115 seconds

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control all of the areas of power. It has to do with freedom and

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fundamental Sherman writes. I can tell you something simply, this was

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given to the UN to see whether it On the role of Islam, because

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critics like you say that it is them a greater part in the state,

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it is not much difference. Islam was the religion of the state and

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Arabic was the language. The principle of Sharia law is the main

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source of legislation. Article 219 is new. It includes foundations,

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Wall's, in jurisprudence, and documents of Islam. What is the

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problem with that? That is a wording that has no exact legal

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definition. You would allow people to elaborate about what is right

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and wrong according to their own suggestions. That is the reality.

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But the main authority, Sunni it is lamb, when it comes to women's

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rights... and you want a constitution, the definition of

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writes... why not? Why are you denying us a real democratic regime,

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a constitution, like the US constitution, like any other

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country in the world that has a constitution that says, every time

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that you want to do something... said you'd that the principles of

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Sharia law, the main legislation, is in the existing constitution.

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When it came to it religious minorities, you are a member of the

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10% of Coptic Christians in Egypt, in the old constitution, there was

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an article about religious minorities. In this new

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constitution, it said the principles of legislation, I deeply,

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you are going to be better off because the minorities can follow

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their own religious codes. Which should be more of a guarantee.

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agreed this is better. But the first half is completely undefined.

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Its words are undefined. The powers that can be given to religious

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forces that want to interfere, it is not my problem, Christian or

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Muslim, my problem is human rights, freedom of speech, minority rights.

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I was just putting to you and I want to know, we have seen a great

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deal of violence on the streets in Egypt, this constitutional

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referendum is... at 51%, can you agree on a referendum? Kenya have a

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constitution that has only been accepted by half of the people. --

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65 % said no to the constitution. The highest degree is in Cairo. 65

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% said no to the constitution. Even at that ends up 51 %, any

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constitution is taken by an absolute measure. That means at

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least 75 %, two thirds. I do not want to second-guess the result but

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we do not have it but you had mentioned woman's rights -- women's

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rights, you say that there is no discrimination in the draft. The

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earlier article specifically linking women's rights to Sharia

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law was dropped. Arguably, this new constitution gives woman more

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rights. Divorced and widowed women, can often get a hard deal in Egypt,

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a better protected. I do not agree. It I have the articles here. It

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seems to not say anything. Why should women be discriminated

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against in this constitution? is no explicit definition that

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women have equal rights. There is no state and that women have equal

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rights. That is the problem. does not say women, specifically.

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Article 30 says citizens are equal before the law at equal in rights

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and obligations. Women are citizens. Aren't they? I am trying to explain

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to you that admitting his part is not accepting the fact, I do not

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want to go through a religious context, but the Midlands have

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their own theories about what women are. I am not an expert on that. I

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do not want to go through it. talked about freedom of speech.

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There are 51 articles guaranteeing personal freedoms of the draft

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constitution compared to the old one which had 24, including the

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right of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. With all

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respect, if you read the details, it has more obstacles than the last

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constitution in terms of freedom of speech. Those other differences.

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Newspapers can write but they have to write what is true and they

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cannot deviate... Be going to definition. What is true and what

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is not a true. You are opening the door for punishment. The draft

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constitution is approved by a majority of people in Egypt,

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however slim, would you accept it? No. It has not been done in a

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transparent way. There has been so much for us in, it is beyond belief.

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It we defied minute program, I cannot tell you. Schneider 2% of

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the Egyptian judges boycotted it. - - 92 %. Did you do that? A number

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of judges. That is why the vote was spread. Judges, teachers, civil

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servants. If 92 %, of which the people's conscious agrees, they

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would not be this mood and because it was not according to the law. It

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does not represent everybody. Can the results of this referendum be

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correct? There is 3,000 complaints which have been lodged with the

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committee's, attacking all the procedures. There were committees

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where Coptic Christians were bullied not to vote. Women were

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left to stand for six or seven would get tired and leave. So you

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are claiming irregularities. What happens if the constitution is

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not be accepted by the National Salvation Front. We will request it

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is a void. You have many leading members, a UN atomic energy

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inspector. This man has a conscience. Everybody does. So when

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it is said that it bore atrophied political divisions, do you see

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Egypt becoming more dangerous? is more dangerous. The document

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does not reflect the discussions. It was thrown down the drain. This

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is the document that is being sent. People think they will get 80 or 90

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% consent. You do not get that. You get 51 or 52 %. It is not a

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document that is valid. It is void today and will be void for ever.

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But someone says to be angry with the Muslim Brotherhood and hid us

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as you wish, but preserve unity, and let's turn to the judgment of

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the ballot box, he has a point. You are seeing the electoral process is

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flawed. He has a point. What is the point, but you can run falsified

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votes without supervision of judges, without any supervision. He knows

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the outcome. He knows there were falsified votes. I would be

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respected if it was transparent. The human rights associations were

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deprived from attending. For the first time, they were allowed to

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come in. The human rights organisations issued a statement

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that they have never seen more falsification in a process than

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this one. More to that effect, the only good 53 %. Can you imagine a

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constitution where put the presenter people do not wanted.

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What will you do now? There is an argument you will have to find an

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accommodation. We're going back to the original, the only entity that

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can protect us. That is the judges and the law and the courts which

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are now, do you know this referendum happened while the

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constitution was being surrounded by Tim is a brotherhood to prevent

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the judges for going into the courts? They wanted to rely on the

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legitimacy of the referendum. -- to rule. They knew they would rule

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against illegitimacy. Can you call this a free referendum? They were

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surrounded by groups in order to So you are more critical of the

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contents than the process... both. We do not have the time but the

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devil is in the details. I am against both. The document and the

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process. The secularists and the Liberals in Egypt cannot just wish

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the Muslim Brotherhood away. Like ransacking the premises of the

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Muslim Brotherhood... that is exactly wrong. I should just

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explain, we have seen violence been perpetrated by secularistss,

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perhaps still loyal to the former raging -- regime. They are all in

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jail now. The people who committed the crimes... I condemn that

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completely. I have a formula for you. We have not seen the Islamists

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do well just in Egypt, but into an easier, or the Post Arab Spring

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countries... -- in Tunisia. The point that I want to make, the

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President in Tunisia has reached an accommodation, and I put it you,

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that you set tourists and liberals will have to find an accommodation

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with the Muslim Brotherhood. -- secularists. We made a statement

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the day before yesterday. If you want to force the Egyptians into a

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lifestyle that they do not want, or would you want to succeed? If you

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want to succeed, we will help you in the economy, run the country, we

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will help our country stand up and become... economic prosperity, but

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the one condition that you need to understand, we will not be bullied,

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we would not be scared, there is a conspiracy, and they have their own

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hooligans going to the district attorney... this will not work. We

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are ready to co-operate with them, help the country go forward, to

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stop this division that is threatening civil war. But there

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are commentators, an Egyptian based in London, and an expert on

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political Islam, who says it is not the Islamist who are these boilers,

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it is the Liberals. -- these boilers. My advice is to go to

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Cairo and talk to people. The media is being prevented to speak. He is

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pouring all his followers into the national newspapers. But they are

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in touch with the masses. There was an article in Time magazine, which

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said that in November, Islamists are good for democracy in Egypt

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because they understood democracy better, not just better organised,

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but they campaigned hard are -- campaigned harder. 30 million of

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Egyptians are illiterate, they knew how to appeal to the masses by

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saying, we will help you economically. Where is that? I want

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to tell you something. We are partners. And they cannot wipe out

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the Liberals. We will fight for what is important, freedom and

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democracy. Having said so, and we are willing to be part of the

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Government, but you need to respect us and not bully us. Are you being

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bullied? I am being bullied. you are from the richest family in

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Egypt, you have business interests in construction,... why would I

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risk all of that? Why would I go into a decision, threaten all of my

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well-being, my wealth, my family, why would I do that? Because to me

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there is something more important. As a history professor at the

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American University in Cairo says, in order to truly challenge the

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Muslim Brotherhood in the next elections, the Liberals must engage

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the Islamists on a different tack, such as the economy, rather than

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fight an ideological battle. But can somebody like you, beach

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billionaire, really connect with those people, come can you? They

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need to respect the democratic rules, which are very simple, you

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cannot bully them, you cannot scare them, people should be free to

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speak, why did we do a revolution? If they respect that, and they

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understand that we are equal partners, I as a Christian Egyptian,

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I'm just as Egyptian, I am an Egyptian first before my religion,

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if they respect that, we will work with them. The masses are fed up.

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They are fed up with all of these intellectuals, they want their

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bread and butter, they want to go back to their lives. What is the

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danger of Egypt becoming a theocracy? That is what we are in

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now, that is what we are against. That has happened. We are sitting

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here, fighting for the values that the West actually believes in, and

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now the West is aligned with that government, and we have no

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