Teodoro Obiang - President, Equatorial Guinea HARDtalk

Iraqi detainee, Baha Mousa. That is the latest BBC News, more at the

top of the hour, now, it's time for HARDtalk has come to Bata in

Equatorial Guinea. This tiny West African nation is

now the third biggest oil producer in sub-Saharan Africa.

There is enormous wealth here, but most of the people live in poverty.

Why? Well, that's a question for my

guest today, President Teodoro Obiang, one of the longest serving

Heads of State in the world. He calls himself a moderniser, a

reformer. His critics say he and his family

have systemically looted this country and crushed human rights.

How will history judge one of Africa's most controversial rulers?

President Teodoro Obiang, welcome You have great good fortune.

Perhaps 20 years ago you discovered oil in this country. It has made

the state immensely wealthy. Why is it, given that wealth, that the

majority of people in this country Mr President, when you say there is

no poverty, you must know, as I do, just one or two kilometres from

this very fine Presidential Palace there are people living without

safe, clean drinking water, without access to good healthcare. Without

access to decent schools for their children. This is the kind of

poverty that should not exist in a country which enjoys immense oil

But you have had 33 years. It seems to me extraordinary that after that

length of time that accord together UN and the World Bank we have an

average life expectancy of men in this country that is little more

than 50 years old. We have more than 10% of children who are dying

before they reach the age of five. These are figures which suggest,

frankly, that you have failed your Mr President, there are

investigators and legal officials in the United States, in France who

have looked at the way in which the state finances have been handled in

this country. They have reached some very negative conclusions.

Legal documents in in the United States refer to, this is a direct

quote, "An ongoing family criminal conspiracy", referring to you and

your family and to your handling of the oil revenues in this country.

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If everything was handled in a legitimate way and was all about

the state rather than your family benefiting, how do you explain that

your own son, Teodorin, apparently has assets in the United States

which include a Malibu mansion, a private jet, a collection of

Michael Jackson memorabilia worth $2 million, in total assets of

hundreds of millions of US dollars which of course the United States

now wants to seize and take from you because they believe they are

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sourced from illegal means? How can Right. We are able to scrutinise

some of the information already. I don't know if you have read the 100

pages of the Justice Department report into the case of your son,

Teodorin. It goes into great detail of exactly what he did when he was

in charge of the logging and Forestry Ministry. He, apparently,

according to the United States companies, had companies pay

millions of dollars in kick backs to himself. He is said to have

imposed a tax of $28 US dollars on every log exported from your

country into a bank account he personally controlled. Are you

Bearing in mind what we have already discussed in our interview,

the fact that there are people living in this country, many of

them, without access to clean drinking water, still struggling to

find a job, is it right, is it acceptable, that your own son, for

example, in Paris, has a mansion worth almost 200 million euros, a

fleet of a dozen luxury cars including Ferraris, Bugattis,

Rolls-Royce and has bought art work and antiques worth millions and

millions of euros? Do you not think there is something wrong about

Hang on, with respect... How much was he earning? How much was he

earning? There is a very, very difficult line to draw between the

state and the family. You are the President. We are talking about

your son, who is now the Vice- President. We are also talking

about a government which includes your own son, who is Minister of

Energy and Mines. We are talking about a government which includes

your brother, who is Minister of Defence. It looks as though you run

The French government has seized the Paris mansion, the art works,

the cars, and is seeking legal action against your son. Are you

freepd see your son go to Paris -- prepared to see your son go to

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Paris and defend himself and his Leave aside France, what do you say

to the people in your own country, I have spoken to some of them, who

say that you and your family have stolen, stolen the resources and

the assets that rightfully belong to all of the people of this

If I may say so, you talk about the infrastructure, the development

that you are doing in this country. Let me ask you one simple question.

How many Presidential Palaces are If I may... If I may say so you

have final presidential residences in Malabo, Malabo2, Bata, one in

Oyala. How many residencies do you I don't suggest that for a second.

But leave aside the houses, I do want to talk to you about Oyala,

which is your planned administrative capital, and it is

an immense project, and we were lucky enough to visit just a couple

of days ago. So far, you have begun construction work on a major new

university and also on a luxury hotel and conference centre and

golf course in Oyala. I am curious to know why you think that is the

best way to develop this country are economically and socially in

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I understand. I just wonder. The two projects we have talked about,

the university, the hotel resort, they are going to cost more than

half a billion Euros. I just wonder whether it is the best use of the

oil money that this nation has. Do you believe it is the right

I need to be informed about what happened in this country, but

surely your own people need to be informed, too, for example about

the events unfolding in North Africa connected to the Arab

uprisings. Why is it that so little information has been given on state

television about the events in Libya, in Egypt, in Tunisia? Is it

because you fear that similar The International Committee to

Protect journalists has your country in the top five most

censored countries in the world. I wonder why you think so many

national -- international organisations worry so much about

I want to ask you about your relations with the international

community. I think it's fair to say that you have worked very hard with

the African Cup of Nations, the African Union summit here, you have

worked very hard to try to improve the international standing and

Equatorial Guinea. And yet we have seen in 2000 and for an attempted

coup which involved international mercenaries and appeared to involve

money coming from Mark Thatcher, the son of the former British prime

minister Margaret Thatcher. Do you think that the Western nations in

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So you think that the Government's you mentioned were complicit in the

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If that is true, Mr President, why is it that you still allow United

States oil companies to dominate oil production in this country? I

look at the figures, and the biggest 10 companies involved in

oil exploration are American. You seem to have a very complicated

I just wonder for the future where the you see a strategic shift for

this country. I have been struck as I have travelled around your

country at the number of infrastructure project, building

project, which are being run and financed by Chinese companies and

A final question, Mr President. You last year held a referendum on a

new constitution, and it sets term limits on the presidency of two

seven-year terms. Because of your presence here for a long time, you

have already served 33 years. Does that mean this you will regard the

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