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Now on BBC News, it's time for Arguably the most right-wing | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
government in Israel's history may soon be replaced by a government | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
even further to the ride. Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu is the | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
clear favourite to keep his job after next week's election but the | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
next government coalition may depend on hardliners in the Jewish | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
settler movement, who want to annex large chunks of the West Bank and | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
end all talk of a two state peace deal. My guest today is Danny mac, | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
a settler dealer backing Mr Netanyahu. Is the rise of the far | :00:46. | :00:56. | |
:00:56. | :01:18. | ||
right about to leave Israel Dani Dayan, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
Thank you. The centre of gravity of Israeli politics is shifting ever | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
further to the right point Is that how you see it? I am not sure. I | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
think the outcome of the election will not be Dep -- very different | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
from the previous one. But I am not sure they are decided. I am not | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
sure even Mr Netanyahu's victory is complete. Israeli public opinion is | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
very volatile. There are mighty forces that are doing everything | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
they can in order to topple Mr Netanyahu. That includes even the | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
President of the United States. Leaking from the White House 0.2 | :02:02. | :02:12. | |
that. And -- point to that. I would say the only power the President of | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
Israel has is to grant the power to form a coalition. I am not sure | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
that he will grant it to Mr Netanyahu for sure. You raise some | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
mighty issues. Not least Israel's relationship with the US and the | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
role of the President. We will get to this. Sticking to what is | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
happening to the right of Israeli politics. The striking thing we | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
have seen in this election campaign is the rise from nowhere of this | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
new party. It advocates a set of ultra hawkish poll -- policies, | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
particularly in regards to the Palestinians, the occupied | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
territory, which is outflanking Mr Netanyahu from the right point The | :02:56. | :03:02. | |
polls command between -- the polls suggest they command 16 or 17 seats | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
in the new parliament. How do you explain their power? Those | :03:06. | :03:13. | |
positions that you are referring to as her ultra hawkish are quite | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
realistic. The problem I think it is that you misread the situation | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
in the Middle East. The fact is, Israel is beginning to understand | :03:23. | :03:32. | |
that the two states solution never existed. It was a mirage. As you | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
get closer to it, it was revealed as just hot air. But because of | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
Israel or the settlers but because of the refusals of the Palestinians | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
to accept it. Then, the Israelis start to think, if this is the | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
situation, how do we cope with these new understandings? | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
Ultimately, Europeans and Americans will grasp the same reality and | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
will start to think again about the excellence of the peace process. | :04:04. | :04:11. | |
Unpicking that, you tell me you do not believe I understand what is | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
going on, but the leader of that party is explicit. He wants to | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
annex as soon as possible 60% of the land of the West Bank, | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
internationally regarded as occupied land, illegally occupied, | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
which should be handed over as part of the peace process. It wants 60% | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
and next and he wants to do away once and for all with the talk of a | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
two-state solution. Are you with him on that? I would like it to | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
happen but I don't think it will happen in the foreseeable future, | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
the annexation. It's a natural outcome... If you want it to happen | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
and if a majority of Israelis decide they want it to happen, why | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
should it not? Because I don't think the majority of Israelis will | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
decide that in the coming election. But this is complicated. I want to | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
get to the part of this particular issue. If you want it to happen, | :05:07. | :05:14. | |
why are you not supporting the Jewish home party and why are you | :05:14. | :05:21. | |
supporting Binyamin Netanyahu, who shied away from that policy? | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
election is not a beauty pageant. In an election, you go to the | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
ballot first and foremost to elect the Prime Minister. When I look at | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
the candidate for prime minister, their international stature, their | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
ability to make decisions, their experience, that proverbial phone- | :05:42. | :05:52. | |
:05:52. | :05:52. | ||
call at 3am in the morning from the head off a group that says Mahmoud | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
Ahmadinejad will make a big mistake, what do we do? I want Binyamin | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
Netanyahu to get that. You want him because you think he is more | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
acceptable to the west, will statesmanlike qualities. But when | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
it comes to the issue of how to deal with the Palestinians, you | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
actually support the far right and Jewish home and everything they say. | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
I wonder if you support things like recently, when faced with an Arab | :06:19. | :06:27. | |
member of Knesset, he said, when you were still climbing trees, we | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
had a Jewish state. The share those politics? I believe even hint | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
regrets that outburst. Because too many people, that sounds overtly... | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
He was quoting one of your prime ministers. Never mind. That was a | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
mistake and he knows that. He is inexperienced. He has the right to | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
make mistakes. But it is more important, the second part of your | :06:56. | :07:04. | |
question. Thus annexation talks of the far right mean it will be | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
elected? For be the possibility to establish a Palestinian state? -- 4 | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
B. The fact is that the Palestinian state could exist. It was a | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
Palestinian decision not to establish it, not an Israeli one. | :07:21. | :07:28. | |
Not because of the settlement, not because of Mr Netanyahu, it is | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
because of the fact that time and time again the Palestinians | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
rejected every offer of a Palestinian state. You can doubt Mr | :07:37. | :07:44. | |
Netanyahu... But we have Palestinians who come into the | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
HARDtalk studio and I ask them about the historic decisions they | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
have taken when it comes to all of the long Oslo processes and the | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
discussion of a two-state solution. They can speak for themselves. You | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
have to speak for who you represent, the Jewish settlers. You tell me | :08:00. | :08:08. | |
you don't think Mr Bennett, one of the stars of the current election | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
campaign, why is it the party due to campaign for, Mr Netanyahu's | :08:15. | :08:24. | |
party, includes a very senior people who, to quote one, a recent | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
comment to the New Yorker magazine, said, you can't teach and monkey to | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
speak and you can't teach an Arab to be democratic. The Arab destroys | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
everything he touches. That is a man that you are campaigning. | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
not campaigning for him. I am campaigning for Binyamin Netanyahu. | :08:44. | :08:51. | |
You are campaigning for that party, including that man who is going for | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
a seat. Is it acceptable he should be part of it? That is a question | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
you have for the people who will vote for him. I am putting it to | :09:01. | :09:11. | |
you. It's a very unfortunate quote and... It is not a quote, it's a | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
mindset. I put it to you that your face is on Israeli television, | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
telling Israelis to vote for the party. It a go -- vote for it, this | :09:20. | :09:29. | |
is the kind of dead woman they will have inside. This is the Express -- | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
exception. The exception that proves the rule. I am not voting | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
for that kind of quote, I vote for a responsible Prime Minister that | :09:38. | :09:46. | |
will give Israel... Safeguard Israel's interests. With respect, | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
even these short interview thus far contradicts what you just told me. | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
You said to me that you actually support Jewish homes' notion that | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
the police process is dead and annexation of the West Bank should | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
proceed. -- peace process. Not straight away but it should happen. | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
If that is the case, it makes no sense that you of the yourself as a | :10:09. | :10:16. | |
supporter of Binyamin Netanyahu, who in 2009 declared he accepted a | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
two-state solution and would work for a two-state solution. You can't | :10:20. | :10:27. | |
have it both ways. Politics is the art of the possible. In an election, | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
you have to choose the party you identify with most. How can you | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
identify with Binyamin Netanyahu? Maybe we should not take his | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
commitment to us to stop -- to state solutions to Risley? I really | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
don't know if Mr Netanyahu is tactical but I will tell you... | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
think it could be tactical? I want to tell you something more | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
important. You British say the proof of the pudding is in its | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
eating. Well, in its eating, despite the moratorium on | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
construction in g'day and Somalia that was very unfortunate, -- today | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
and, I see a policy of building that I like. Despite this speech in | :11:14. | :11:21. | |
which he adopted the two-state solution, I see a political | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
attitude towards the Palestinians that I admire. OK. What he seemed | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
to be saying to me, and I do not want to paraphrase if it is unfair, | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
that to understand Binyamin Netanyahu, we should understand | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
that rhetorically he remains committed to the two-state solution | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
but in every practical and meaningful sense he is walking away | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
from that policy as fast as he can? Particularly by encourage in the | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
massive expansion of Jewish settlement construction across the | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
West Bank. I would not phrase it that way. But I will tell you what | :11:56. | :12:03. | |
I mean. Mr Netanyahu is beginning to understand what I'm a humbly say | :12:03. | :12:11. | |
I understood a long time ago. After the offer to the Palestinians that | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
they rejected, an offer that included withdrawal from all of | :12:16. | :12:26. | |
:12:26. | :12:27. | ||
g'day in Somalia, the division of Jerusalem, everything, you can read | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
Condoleezza Rice's memoir, she could not believe her eyes, how far | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
reaching the offer was, and it was rejected. Then, there will not be | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
asked to state solution. Not because of us but because of the | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
Palestinians. -- not be a two-state solution. I do not want to go into | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
the history for too long. We know the Palestinians never believed for | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
one second that the deal could be delivered. That is by the buyer. | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
do not agree. Sticking to the analysis of what is happening to | :12:59. | :13:06. | |
Israel's attitude to the Palestinian state. You know as well | :13:06. | :13:13. | |
as I do, I have spoken to him, that he now believes that unless it to | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
state deal can be done, the sort of deal that you have talked about, he | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
says Israel will face a South African-style struggle for equal | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
voting rights from the Palestinians. As soon as that happens, the state | :13:28. | :13:36. | |
of the East rail could be finished That proves exactly how committed | :13:36. | :13:45. | |
he was. You know what he is saying. He is saying that the future is of | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
an apartheid style Israel in which the Palestinians are permanently | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
locked into enclaves, occupied territory, rendering them stateless, | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
second class citizens. Well, that is not the only thing that he has | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
said. But his commitment to the two state solution, that kind of | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
commitment proves exactly, if he was not able to achieve that goal, | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
no-one will be. But let me tell you something about South Africa. I | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
have been virtually everywhere over the world. And refused to visit | :14:21. | :14:28. | |
South Africa until 1994 on principle. Of course. Because you | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
saw people displaced? Of course. I arrived in Johannesburg for the | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
first time in my life in 1994. There is no comparison at all | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
between the two. It is strange that many civil rights campaigners in | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
South Africa to see a very clear parallel between their struggle for | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
freedom and the Palestinians and their particular form of | :14:50. | :14:59. | |
dispossession today. Israel made a lot of mistakes. I am not proud of | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
the fact that in the 1990s, Israel helped South Africa. I am not proud | :15:04. | :15:11. | |
of that. But this is not the point. The point is that they are | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
completely different. Let us see the moral justification, the | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
balance of morality in the Israeli- Palestinian conflict. When we talk | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
about South Africa, we are talking about something that is utterly | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
immoral. I would like for a minute to explain the balance of morality | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
in this is rarely-Palestinian conflict. There are two ethnic | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
groups, Jews and Palestinians, who both severely believe the land is | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
theirs. I sincerely believe the land is mine. We came after being | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
expelled for 2002 -- 2,000 years. We prayed, we yearned for it... | :15:53. | :16:01. | |
don't believe this was God given, do you? Know, I am a secular person. | :16:01. | :16:07. | |
We have got to get to another big issue, the Palestinians living in | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
the West Bank today are dispossessed of basic rights. They | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
do not have the right to vote for the power that has a week to that | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
sovereignty over them and they cannot get away from that. -- | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
Alternate sovereignty. I will finish my argument. They saw us as | :16:24. | :16:30. | |
a colonialist force. OK. But the fact is that partition, which was | :16:30. | :16:37. | |
often time and again, time and again, accepted by us, rejected by | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
them. They launch an attack in order to exterminate us. Going to | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
square one... I do not want this interview simply to rehearse | :16:47. | :16:53. | |
history. I want to look forward. You have told me and many people on | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
the right in Israel today tell me that they ultimately believe the | :16:57. | :17:03. | |
West Bank will be axed. It will never be handed over to a | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
Palestinian state, it will always be controlled by Israel. Simple | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
question, then. Will those 2.5 million Palestinians who do believe | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
will be permanently under Israeli control in the West Bank be allowed | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
to vote in Israeli elections? will give you a simple answer. | :17:21. | :17:30. | |
First, we are talking about an into Room. There is no final situation | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
solution at the moment. They live in limbo? No. They live in a | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
reality they created. Do you invaded... Israel conquered that | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
territory in 1967 and if you want, I can cite all of the international | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
law that says that was a military occupation. No! No! I am sorry... | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
Who are you apologising to? The international community? This was a | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
defensive war. It is an incidental outcome. It was not an aggressive | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
war. But this is not the main point. The main point is that this is an | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
interim situation in which we have to find a modus Vivendi which is as | :18:18. | :18:27. | |
good as possible for everybody. Look, as you suggested, we can keep | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
trying to form two states. President Clinton tried and he | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
brought catastrophe over the Middle East. He took office in 1993 with a | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
stable Middle East. He left in 2001 with a completely chaotic Middle | :18:44. | :18:52. | |
East. Look, what we have to do is stop trying to obtain the | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
unattainable, as heroic and tempting it may be, and tried to | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
improve the situation on the ground for everyone, for Israelis and | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
Palestinians. And I will tell you something that may surprise you. I | :19:07. | :19:14. | |
think Israel should now take an active, of offensive of improving | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
rights for Palestinians. Is it not basic human rights to be able to | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
vote and determine the political power that actually controls your | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
life? Palestinians do not have that right. I will tell you. First of | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
all, the basic human right is the right to live. I hope my daughter | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
will be able to stop going to school every morning in a bullet- | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
proof glass because of terrorist attacks. If that happens, we can | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
make tremendous improvement. And I am sure that will be echoed by the | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
Palestinian leadership who say they are absolutely committed to rooting | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
out terrorists. Good! I think that Israel can now take calculated | :19:59. | :20:05. | |
risks. I am happy when every checkpoint is removed. This is not | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
about check points, this is basic rights. I have got to ask you a | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
question. I agree that political rights are very important. I am a | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
political creature. I am the last person to underestimate the | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
importance of political rights. But the fact... First of all, | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
Palestinians to have political rights. They elected a President | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
Mahmoud Abbas. They elected a parliament. By the way, they | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
elected Hamas as their leading force. They carried out the cruder | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
type in Gaza that overthrew everything. -- coup in Gaza. You | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
are right that they do not have full rights, but I want to tell you | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
something. I am a person whose vision of the world is nationally | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
centred. I respect the nation of aspirations of the Palestinians. I | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
respect that very much. By the way, I think I understand this much | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
better than in the brawl in Tel Aviv or in London. But because I | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
understand them so well, I fear them so much because I know their | :21:14. | :21:21. | |
final aspiration for the Palestinians is to return all of | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
the territory. And that is the reason why an agreement is not | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
possible. You say you understand the Palestinians but I wonder | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
whether you understand what you and many other important figures on the | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
Israeli right wing by getting Israel into. It looks very likely | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
if Binyamin Netanyahu returns to power with a coalition government | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
involving even more right wing individuals than the last | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
government, it looks as though the relationship with United States and | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
the international community will be one of Israeli isolation. Are you | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
ready to live with that? I am not sure we have seen these kinds of | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
dramatic properties in the past and if they have crystallised... I am | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
sure you saw the report by Jeffrey Goldberg, who is very well | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
connected in the US, who described in private how President Obama is | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
saying Binyamin Netanyahu is "leading Israel down a path towards | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
almost total isolation". I do not underestimate our relationship with | :22:23. | :22:30. | |
the US, not at all. But... And yet, you support the building of more | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
and more settlements including the one that the President has caught | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
completely provocative, counter- productive and disappointing. | :22:39. | :22:47. | |
understand that you do not like history. But, look, I am old enough | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
to remember 1981 when the Prime Minister destroyed the Iraqi | :22:50. | :22:57. | |
nuclear reactor and Shimon Peres and I am sure also very important | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
figures in the international arena threatened Israel that it would be | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
isolated. And today, the whole world says thank you to Israel for | :23:06. | :23:14. | |
doing that. So, if you think Islamic fundamentalist enclaves in | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
the West Bank, intra-day and Somalia, the kind of Mali you are | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
now facing in western Africa, will stabilise the Middle East, will | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
prevent the falling of King Abdullah in Jordan, will bring | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
peace in the Middle East, then you are so naive, so naive. Finally, | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
you are personally backing Binyamin Netanyahu very strongly. Did it | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
give you pause when the recently retired chief of the Shin Bet said | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
that Binyamin Netanyahu has a record of consistently put in his | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
own interests before that of the nation. Right now, he says Israel | :23:51. | :24:01. | |
faces a crisis of leadership and of values. Well, I differ with him. I | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
believe he was used by political forces in order to influence the | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
election. I don't think the head of Shin Bet is easily used by any | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
force. The head of Shin Bet has his preferences for who could be prime | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
minister, who should be Prime Minister and he unfortunately uses | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
his prestige in order to influence the election. By the way, I am not | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
sure I would do anything different if I was convinced that I wanted to | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
a certain person to be Prime Minister, I would use my prestige | :24:32. | :24:36. |