Dani Dayan - Chairman of the Israeli Settler Movement HARDtalk


Dani Dayan - Chairman of the Israeli Settler Movement

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Now on BBC News, it's time for Arguably the most right-wing

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government in Israel's history may soon be replaced by a government

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even further to the ride. Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu is the

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clear favourite to keep his job after next week's election but the

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next government coalition may depend on hardliners in the Jewish

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settler movement, who want to annex large chunks of the West Bank and

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end all talk of a two state peace deal. My guest today is Danny mac,

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a settler dealer backing Mr Netanyahu. Is the rise of the far

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right about to leave Israel Dani Dayan, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you. The centre of gravity of Israeli politics is shifting ever

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further to the right point Is that how you see it? I am not sure. I

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think the outcome of the election will not be Dep -- very different

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from the previous one. But I am not sure they are decided. I am not

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sure even Mr Netanyahu's victory is complete. Israeli public opinion is

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very volatile. There are mighty forces that are doing everything

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they can in order to topple Mr Netanyahu. That includes even the

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President of the United States. Leaking from the White House 0.2

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that. And -- point to that. I would say the only power the President of

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Israel has is to grant the power to form a coalition. I am not sure

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that he will grant it to Mr Netanyahu for sure. You raise some

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mighty issues. Not least Israel's relationship with the US and the

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role of the President. We will get to this. Sticking to what is

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happening to the right of Israeli politics. The striking thing we

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have seen in this election campaign is the rise from nowhere of this

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new party. It advocates a set of ultra hawkish poll -- policies,

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particularly in regards to the Palestinians, the occupied

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territory, which is outflanking Mr Netanyahu from the right point The

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polls command between -- the polls suggest they command 16 or 17 seats

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in the new parliament. How do you explain their power? Those

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positions that you are referring to as her ultra hawkish are quite

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realistic. The problem I think it is that you misread the situation

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in the Middle East. The fact is, Israel is beginning to understand

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that the two states solution never existed. It was a mirage. As you

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get closer to it, it was revealed as just hot air. But because of

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Israel or the settlers but because of the refusals of the Palestinians

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to accept it. Then, the Israelis start to think, if this is the

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situation, how do we cope with these new understandings?

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Ultimately, Europeans and Americans will grasp the same reality and

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will start to think again about the excellence of the peace process.

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Unpicking that, you tell me you do not believe I understand what is

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going on, but the leader of that party is explicit. He wants to

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annex as soon as possible 60% of the land of the West Bank,

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internationally regarded as occupied land, illegally occupied,

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which should be handed over as part of the peace process. It wants 60%

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and next and he wants to do away once and for all with the talk of a

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two-state solution. Are you with him on that? I would like it to

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happen but I don't think it will happen in the foreseeable future,

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the annexation. It's a natural outcome... If you want it to happen

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and if a majority of Israelis decide they want it to happen, why

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should it not? Because I don't think the majority of Israelis will

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decide that in the coming election. But this is complicated. I want to

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get to the part of this particular issue. If you want it to happen,

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why are you not supporting the Jewish home party and why are you

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supporting Binyamin Netanyahu, who shied away from that policy?

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election is not a beauty pageant. In an election, you go to the

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ballot first and foremost to elect the Prime Minister. When I look at

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the candidate for prime minister, their international stature, their

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ability to make decisions, their experience, that proverbial phone-

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call at 3am in the morning from the head off a group that says Mahmoud

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Ahmadinejad will make a big mistake, what do we do? I want Binyamin

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Netanyahu to get that. You want him because you think he is more

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acceptable to the west, will statesmanlike qualities. But when

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it comes to the issue of how to deal with the Palestinians, you

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actually support the far right and Jewish home and everything they say.

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I wonder if you support things like recently, when faced with an Arab

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member of Knesset, he said, when you were still climbing trees, we

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had a Jewish state. The share those politics? I believe even hint

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regrets that outburst. Because too many people, that sounds overtly...

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He was quoting one of your prime ministers. Never mind. That was a

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mistake and he knows that. He is inexperienced. He has the right to

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make mistakes. But it is more important, the second part of your

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question. Thus annexation talks of the far right mean it will be

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elected? For be the possibility to establish a Palestinian state? -- 4

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B. The fact is that the Palestinian state could exist. It was a

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Palestinian decision not to establish it, not an Israeli one.

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Not because of the settlement, not because of Mr Netanyahu, it is

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because of the fact that time and time again the Palestinians

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rejected every offer of a Palestinian state. You can doubt Mr

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Netanyahu... But we have Palestinians who come into the

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HARDtalk studio and I ask them about the historic decisions they

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have taken when it comes to all of the long Oslo processes and the

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discussion of a two-state solution. They can speak for themselves. You

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have to speak for who you represent, the Jewish settlers. You tell me

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you don't think Mr Bennett, one of the stars of the current election

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campaign, why is it the party due to campaign for, Mr Netanyahu's

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party, includes a very senior people who, to quote one, a recent

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comment to the New Yorker magazine, said, you can't teach and monkey to

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speak and you can't teach an Arab to be democratic. The Arab destroys

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everything he touches. That is a man that you are campaigning.

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not campaigning for him. I am campaigning for Binyamin Netanyahu.

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You are campaigning for that party, including that man who is going for

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a seat. Is it acceptable he should be part of it? That is a question

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you have for the people who will vote for him. I am putting it to

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you. It's a very unfortunate quote and... It is not a quote, it's a

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mindset. I put it to you that your face is on Israeli television,

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telling Israelis to vote for the party. It a go -- vote for it, this

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is the kind of dead woman they will have inside. This is the Express --

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exception. The exception that proves the rule. I am not voting

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for that kind of quote, I vote for a responsible Prime Minister that

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will give Israel... Safeguard Israel's interests. With respect,

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even these short interview thus far contradicts what you just told me.

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You said to me that you actually support Jewish homes' notion that

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the police process is dead and annexation of the West Bank should

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proceed. -- peace process. Not straight away but it should happen.

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If that is the case, it makes no sense that you of the yourself as a

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supporter of Binyamin Netanyahu, who in 2009 declared he accepted a

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two-state solution and would work for a two-state solution. You can't

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have it both ways. Politics is the art of the possible. In an election,

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you have to choose the party you identify with most. How can you

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identify with Binyamin Netanyahu? Maybe we should not take his

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commitment to us to stop -- to state solutions to Risley? I really

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don't know if Mr Netanyahu is tactical but I will tell you...

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think it could be tactical? I want to tell you something more

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important. You British say the proof of the pudding is in its

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eating. Well, in its eating, despite the moratorium on

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construction in g'day and Somalia that was very unfortunate, -- today

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and, I see a policy of building that I like. Despite this speech in

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which he adopted the two-state solution, I see a political

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attitude towards the Palestinians that I admire. OK. What he seemed

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to be saying to me, and I do not want to paraphrase if it is unfair,

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that to understand Binyamin Netanyahu, we should understand

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that rhetorically he remains committed to the two-state solution

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but in every practical and meaningful sense he is walking away

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from that policy as fast as he can? Particularly by encourage in the

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massive expansion of Jewish settlement construction across the

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West Bank. I would not phrase it that way. But I will tell you what

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I mean. Mr Netanyahu is beginning to understand what I'm a humbly say

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I understood a long time ago. After the offer to the Palestinians that

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they rejected, an offer that included withdrawal from all of

:12:16.:12:26.
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g'day in Somalia, the division of Jerusalem, everything, you can read

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Condoleezza Rice's memoir, she could not believe her eyes, how far

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reaching the offer was, and it was rejected. Then, there will not be

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asked to state solution. Not because of us but because of the

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Palestinians. -- not be a two-state solution. I do not want to go into

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the history for too long. We know the Palestinians never believed for

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one second that the deal could be delivered. That is by the buyer.

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do not agree. Sticking to the analysis of what is happening to

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Israel's attitude to the Palestinian state. You know as well

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as I do, I have spoken to him, that he now believes that unless it to

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state deal can be done, the sort of deal that you have talked about, he

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says Israel will face a South African-style struggle for equal

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voting rights from the Palestinians. As soon as that happens, the state

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of the East rail could be finished That proves exactly how committed

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he was. You know what he is saying. He is saying that the future is of

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an apartheid style Israel in which the Palestinians are permanently

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locked into enclaves, occupied territory, rendering them stateless,

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second class citizens. Well, that is not the only thing that he has

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said. But his commitment to the two state solution, that kind of

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commitment proves exactly, if he was not able to achieve that goal,

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no-one will be. But let me tell you something about South Africa. I

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have been virtually everywhere over the world. And refused to visit

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South Africa until 1994 on principle. Of course. Because you

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saw people displaced? Of course. I arrived in Johannesburg for the

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first time in my life in 1994. There is no comparison at all

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between the two. It is strange that many civil rights campaigners in

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South Africa to see a very clear parallel between their struggle for

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freedom and the Palestinians and their particular form of

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dispossession today. Israel made a lot of mistakes. I am not proud of

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the fact that in the 1990s, Israel helped South Africa. I am not proud

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of that. But this is not the point. The point is that they are

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completely different. Let us see the moral justification, the

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balance of morality in the Israeli- Palestinian conflict. When we talk

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about South Africa, we are talking about something that is utterly

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immoral. I would like for a minute to explain the balance of morality

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in this is rarely-Palestinian conflict. There are two ethnic

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groups, Jews and Palestinians, who both severely believe the land is

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theirs. I sincerely believe the land is mine. We came after being

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expelled for 2002 -- 2,000 years. We prayed, we yearned for it...

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don't believe this was God given, do you? Know, I am a secular person.

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We have got to get to another big issue, the Palestinians living in

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the West Bank today are dispossessed of basic rights. They

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do not have the right to vote for the power that has a week to that

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sovereignty over them and they cannot get away from that. --

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Alternate sovereignty. I will finish my argument. They saw us as

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a colonialist force. OK. But the fact is that partition, which was

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often time and again, time and again, accepted by us, rejected by

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them. They launch an attack in order to exterminate us. Going to

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square one... I do not want this interview simply to rehearse

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history. I want to look forward. You have told me and many people on

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the right in Israel today tell me that they ultimately believe the

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West Bank will be axed. It will never be handed over to a

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Palestinian state, it will always be controlled by Israel. Simple

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question, then. Will those 2.5 million Palestinians who do believe

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will be permanently under Israeli control in the West Bank be allowed

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to vote in Israeli elections? will give you a simple answer.

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First, we are talking about an into Room. There is no final situation

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solution at the moment. They live in limbo? No. They live in a

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reality they created. Do you invaded... Israel conquered that

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territory in 1967 and if you want, I can cite all of the international

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law that says that was a military occupation. No! No! I am sorry...

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Who are you apologising to? The international community? This was a

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defensive war. It is an incidental outcome. It was not an aggressive

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war. But this is not the main point. The main point is that this is an

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interim situation in which we have to find a modus Vivendi which is as

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good as possible for everybody. Look, as you suggested, we can keep

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trying to form two states. President Clinton tried and he

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brought catastrophe over the Middle East. He took office in 1993 with a

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stable Middle East. He left in 2001 with a completely chaotic Middle

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East. Look, what we have to do is stop trying to obtain the

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unattainable, as heroic and tempting it may be, and tried to

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improve the situation on the ground for everyone, for Israelis and

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Palestinians. And I will tell you something that may surprise you. I

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think Israel should now take an active, of offensive of improving

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rights for Palestinians. Is it not basic human rights to be able to

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vote and determine the political power that actually controls your

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life? Palestinians do not have that right. I will tell you. First of

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all, the basic human right is the right to live. I hope my daughter

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will be able to stop going to school every morning in a bullet-

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proof glass because of terrorist attacks. If that happens, we can

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make tremendous improvement. And I am sure that will be echoed by the

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Palestinian leadership who say they are absolutely committed to rooting

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out terrorists. Good! I think that Israel can now take calculated

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risks. I am happy when every checkpoint is removed. This is not

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about check points, this is basic rights. I have got to ask you a

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question. I agree that political rights are very important. I am a

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political creature. I am the last person to underestimate the

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importance of political rights. But the fact... First of all,

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Palestinians to have political rights. They elected a President

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Mahmoud Abbas. They elected a parliament. By the way, they

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elected Hamas as their leading force. They carried out the cruder

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type in Gaza that overthrew everything. -- coup in Gaza. You

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are right that they do not have full rights, but I want to tell you

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something. I am a person whose vision of the world is nationally

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centred. I respect the nation of aspirations of the Palestinians. I

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respect that very much. By the way, I think I understand this much

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better than in the brawl in Tel Aviv or in London. But because I

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understand them so well, I fear them so much because I know their

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final aspiration for the Palestinians is to return all of

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the territory. And that is the reason why an agreement is not

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possible. You say you understand the Palestinians but I wonder

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whether you understand what you and many other important figures on the

:21:34.:21:38.

Israeli right wing by getting Israel into. It looks very likely

:21:38.:21:43.

if Binyamin Netanyahu returns to power with a coalition government

:21:43.:21:45.

involving even more right wing individuals than the last

:21:45.:21:49.

government, it looks as though the relationship with United States and

:21:49.:21:54.

the international community will be one of Israeli isolation. Are you

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ready to live with that? I am not sure we have seen these kinds of

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dramatic properties in the past and if they have crystallised... I am

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sure you saw the report by Jeffrey Goldberg, who is very well

:22:07.:22:13.

connected in the US, who described in private how President Obama is

:22:13.:22:17.

saying Binyamin Netanyahu is "leading Israel down a path towards

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almost total isolation". I do not underestimate our relationship with

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the US, not at all. But... And yet, you support the building of more

:22:30.:22:34.

and more settlements including the one that the President has caught

:22:34.:22:39.

completely provocative, counter- productive and disappointing.

:22:39.:22:47.

understand that you do not like history. But, look, I am old enough

:22:47.:22:50.

to remember 1981 when the Prime Minister destroyed the Iraqi

:22:50.:22:57.

nuclear reactor and Shimon Peres and I am sure also very important

:22:57.:23:02.

figures in the international arena threatened Israel that it would be

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isolated. And today, the whole world says thank you to Israel for

:23:06.:23:14.

doing that. So, if you think Islamic fundamentalist enclaves in

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the West Bank, intra-day and Somalia, the kind of Mali you are

:23:19.:23:25.

now facing in western Africa, will stabilise the Middle East, will

:23:25.:23:29.

prevent the falling of King Abdullah in Jordan, will bring

:23:29.:23:35.

peace in the Middle East, then you are so naive, so naive. Finally,

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you are personally backing Binyamin Netanyahu very strongly. Did it

:23:40.:23:44.

give you pause when the recently retired chief of the Shin Bet said

:23:44.:23:48.

that Binyamin Netanyahu has a record of consistently put in his

:23:48.:23:51.

own interests before that of the nation. Right now, he says Israel

:23:51.:24:01.

faces a crisis of leadership and of values. Well, I differ with him. I

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believe he was used by political forces in order to influence the

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election. I don't think the head of Shin Bet is easily used by any

:24:10.:24:14.

force. The head of Shin Bet has his preferences for who could be prime

:24:14.:24:18.

minister, who should be Prime Minister and he unfortunately uses

:24:18.:24:24.

his prestige in order to influence the election. By the way, I am not

:24:24.:24:29.

sure I would do anything different if I was convinced that I wanted to

:24:29.:24:32.

a certain person to be Prime Minister, I would use my prestige

:24:32.:24:36.

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