Paul Bhatti - Minister in Charge of National Harmony, Pakistan HARDtalk

General John Allen has been cleared. This next, HARDtalk. Greece beat

Paul Bhatti, the Minister in Charge of National Harmony.

My guest today is a government minister who is job description is

ironic given his country's current terms. Paul Bhatti is Pakistan's

Minister in Charge of National Harmony. It is a job he accepted

after his brother was assassinated while serving as a minorities

Minister. The family is from the Christian minority in Pakistan.

What hope is there for national harmony in a country disfigured by

extremist violence and endemic Paul Bhatti, Welcome to HARDtalk.

Award to take you back, if I may, to that terrible moment in 2011. He

learned that your brother, Shahbaz Bhatti, had been assassinated. How

much of a shock was that? Actually, that was really shocking news. In

fact, in his last month, before his assassination, he had been sharing

with me that he was receiving threats. I was quite sure that he

would be cured. I was quite convinced but never thought about

it. One month before, I caught him in Italy. You were a doctor in

Italy. Yes. You knew that as your brother was Minister for minorities

in Pakistan, which was a sensitive and high profile post, he knew

there were people who wanted to do away with him. Yes. Not -- he was

following a struggle. He was against terrorism, sectarian

violence and Islam. He shared these things with me. Before it happened,

I was quite concerned and I asked him to leave the country for some

months already us. -- or years. I was shocked that some people were

telling his isolation was already planned. I was really shocked.

would not listen to you. Yes. His concern was that he wanted to

protect the minorities and repressed. He could not leave that

purpose. He had a strong fate that he expressed openly everywhere. He

said he had left his hands in -- life in the hands on Jesus Christ.

I know your brother was a practising Christian. I know you

are as well. You have spoken about the difficulties you had coping

with the murder of your brother. For a time, you felt angry at your

country for what had happened to him. Does that feeling of anger

still apply? Now it has changed. I received this news of assassination.

countrthe country forever. I would stay in

Italy and never go back to Pakistan. When I reached there, people were

chanting slogans. It was different. People were concerned with his

assassination. I could feel how the minorities were protected. People

were asking, now what? He would follow his vision and mission? He

asked me to follow. I discussed with him. He may an example of his

own life. Our President did not step back. It is interesting to

compare the decision you had to make with as a Dari. You made a

conscious decision to leave. You were a very successful doctor in

Italy. You had a very tough decision to make when the Pakistani

government invited you to come back and become the Minister of national

harmony. Heart of a decision was that? In the beginning, it was

tough. I have no other choice. I had only to my choices - To Follow

my practice in Italy, or follow the mission of my brother. The

protection of not just minorities but protecting any kind of

discrimination -- discriminated people's. From intolerance.

know what happened to your brother and what happened to my months

earlier to the Governor of Punjab, who have been a high-profile

opponents of the current blasphemy law. He was as a -- assassinated as

well. Your family thought it was wrong for you to give up your

doctoring and give up Italy and go back to this extraordinarily

exposed position. Did the advice not weigh heavily with you? In some

ways, my family was not happy. On the other hand, I think and I

believe that none involvement should not be an option because of

the country's challenges. If you can do something, you have to

prepare for it. Even if you know these things you do will cause you

to create new enemies for yourself? That is true. But you have to find

new ways and means in the way you can perform your duties safely. I

will challenge everything that will kill me. How do you know that? In

Pakistan today, how can you believe that you can trust your own

security? There could happened to the other man killed by his own

bodyguards. You are right. You never know. It is a risk you have

to take. I don't want to tell you how to live your life. But you take

extraordinary risks. The little girl, he was last year accused of

blasphemy because she allegedly, according to some burned pages of

the Koran, it turned out, it seems, she had developmental issues. It

turned out the case was nonsense. Nonetheless, it was an

extraordinarily high profile case. Many religious community leaders

wanted the blasphemy case to go forward. You are offered for a

shorter in your own home. Yes. That is a true. I shall mention that

this case was a matter of great encouragement for May. Following

this case, and protecting Rimsha One side is that with so many more

than leaders. -- I discussed with so many more than leaders.

Religious leaders wanted to equity this case. They did understand that

this was the issue of blasphemy. can see that as a sort of optimism.

I stay the fundamentals of this blasphemy argument have not gone

away. Pakistan's tour has draconian blasphemy laws. Non-Muslims can be

accused of blasphemy. They can be liable to a death sentence based

purely on witness evidence. But the laws have not been changed. Your

brother wanted them changed and reformed. Have you back away from

the call for fundamental reform? do not step back. We were never

like that. We were continuously working down there. We were unable

to get the repeal. Hang on a minute. Surely, the laws themselves are

problematic. One can point to the former minister, now US ambassador,

he was adamant that the problem is the law itself, the way it is

constructed, the premises upon which their adult is fundamentally

wrong. -- build. But most of these cases of blasphemy, like with

Rimsha Masih and others, they are not only Christians but Muslims can

be victims of his blasphemy law, they are falsely accused. What we

have to do is we have defined the way and means of how we can prevent

the misuse of this law, is -- Law. Looking at it today, things have

not improved that much. With the case of Rimsha Masih, things get

you some hope. Take the case of the mother who remains on death row,

convicted of blasphemy, sentenced to death by hanging. She has been

languishing in jail for years. Her husband is appealing all over the

world for clemency. As the minister for national harmony, are you

prepared to say to may that you will ask your President to pardon

her and offer clemency? It is decided by the law that she is

guilty for the blasphemy law. Now she is waiting for the appeal in

the High Court. Afterwards, in the court, if they decide that she is

guilty and she should be punished for, then the President of Pakistan

can take inspection on that. She has to make other possibilities. It

is a different situation. It will become a high-profile case. Without

wishing to push you too hard, this is for a delicate with the death of

your brother. Your brother was very loud in his demand for clemency.

You are not quite as large. Is that because after seeing what happened

to your brother... They are two factors I'm not sure of. After the

assassination of my brother, the cases handled by some other people

toured she has to ask me and horse was legally to fight her case. Had

-- her husband are not let me to follow her case, may be on good

faith. He did not want me to get into trouble. Unless they do not

ask me to follow, I personally cannot support them. Even if we ask

the President, the present is not conditioned to grant clemency when

she has to make other possibilities of the High Court and Supreme Court.

It is fair to say that minorities in Pakistan do not have faith in

the fairness of the justice system. They do not appear to have faith in

the justice system. I cannot say that 100%. In this case... That is

just one case. Paul Bhatti, a man with the same name as yourself, he

said Pakistan is a country where justice is never guaranteed for

religious minorities. I cannot agree with that, several times we

have an advantage position. You are a and the Member of Parliament with

a senior position... There is a fundamental issue of impunity. Many

minority communities do not believe that when they are wrong that there

is any chance that justice will be done against the perpetrators

against them. You know the killers of you rather have not been brought

to justice. -- your brother. Pakistan is passing through a very

serious phase. There is extremism, sectarianism. There is violence

against Muslims as well. If you see the Shia killed... I want to get to

that. Just stick to this idea of impunity. It is not just the

Christian community. The whole country is like that. Indeed. On

the question of who killed your brother, do you believe the 30s

have a clearer idea? -- authorities have a clear idea? INAUDIBLE. After

his assassination there was some conflict. It was in his struggle

against extremism... Pakistani intelligence has very good sources,

they know an awful lot about the Pakistani Taliban yet no attempt

has been made to nail the killers of your brother. I wonder how you

feel about that sitting in the Pakistani cabinet. The Interior

Ministry and intelligence, they have followed this case. The

Minister of the interior explain to me they are killers, they know

about them, they belong to a banned religious organisation, they are

out of the country. In a word, do you believe that? I have to believe

it. Let's look at some critics who are more outspoken than you right

now. Your own college in government, the ambassador who is now in the US.

She was pretty much forced to leave Pakistan because she was such a

loud but Honan of the blasphemy law that the government felt they could

not guarantee her safety. -- opponent. She says appeasement does

not work, it caused us more and more extremism. When she was

struggling with my brother to change the blasphemy law. It has

now been abandoned. It is quite clear the government will not touch

it. It was not representative in the Cabinet this policy. The

assassination of my brother, she did not have to leave the country

for this reason. She received several threats, but after her

several months she stayed in the country. It came out a few days

that if there is something personally against her. She still

faces problems in the Pakistani courts. Despite all the problems

and turmoil we see inside Pakistan, this harmony, there is plenty of

turmoil and troubling you drop off. We do not see perpetrators of

violence,. -- trouble in your country. Shia leaders are absurdly

furious that the government has failed to protect them from these

militant groups. We have seen the results with the terrible bombings

in Quetta where more than 100 people were killed. That is true.

The condition in the north of Pakistan where there is an

terrorism and a lot of groups combating military people. We have

lost more than 40,000 law enforcement people. I cannot forget

your title, minister for national harmony, since you took over,

things have got worse. More than 450 Shia Muslims killed in targeted

sectarian attacks last year. This year has started even worse. You

have not been able to improve the situation for stocked of course. --

situation. We want to promote inter-faith dialogue and

relationships. Where is it? Between people of different faiths. We are

trying to do that. It is not easy to eradicate in a few months. You

have to make policies and to have to convince these people. One of

the most difficult things is to change a mindset of a people. The

country is facing a very difficult period. Our role will take some

time. I think we need the space for this inter-faith dialogue. I do not

think anyone would assume this is easy. It requires a government that

has credibility and a record of strong leadership inside the

country to take play ball to a place where they do not necessarily

want to go. -- people. The problem is, your government does not have

credibility. Look at the polls, the number one problem is corruption in

government. We have had much as in Islamabad against corruption. You

are an outsider who has come back in, which you accept the government

is riddled with corruption? -- would you. These are allegations.

If you look at the history of Pakistan, all governments have the

same allegations. It is not as if our government... After

independence everyone was charged with this kind of... The country

has so many powers that have destabilised the country. We are

unable to make a stable system where basic values can grow. It is

corrosive, isn't it? Corrosive of any ability the government or might

have to take tough decisions. present government do not have an

absolute majority. We have alliances with other parties. Many

times we do not agree with everything. Let me end on a

personal note, your decision to go back strikes me as courageous. You

have spoken about your wife and daughter. I cannot help thinking

that you left Italy to go back to a country where we know it another

girl was actually shot because she wanted girls to get an education.

Do you ever regret going back? Having your family in Pakistan in

the current climate? It is not easy to live in Pakistan, but on the

other hand if you want to change something in your community and you

have the of possibility to do that. I was very close with my younger

brother, I shared many things with him. I knew how he was struggling

with this. In the Christian community I feel that I can make