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Now on BBC News, it is HARDtalk. | 0:00:06 | 0:00:11 | |
My guest today, Renzo Piano,
is the architect of that building. | 0:00:11 | 0:00:14 | |
The London Shard. | 0:00:14 | 0:00:16 | |
He is one of the world's most
accomplished architects. | 0:00:16 | 0:00:19 | |
He is used to dividing opinion. | 0:00:19 | 0:00:23 | |
He designed Paris's poverty centre. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:26 | |
He has taken on high-profile
developments all over the world. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:34 | |
His latest creation is already
loved, but it is also loathed. | 0:00:34 | 0:00:41 | |
One critic described it
as a monument to wealth and power, | 0:00:41 | 0:00:42 | |
run way out of control. | 0:00:45 | 0:00:48 | |
What does it say about us
and why build so big? | 0:00:48 | 0:00:50 | |
Renzo Piano, welcome to HARDtalk. | 0:01:18 | 0:01:23 | |
This building is tall. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:25 | |
It is now the tallest
in the European Union. | 0:01:25 | 0:01:28 | |
Why? | 0:01:28 | 0:01:29 | |
What is the statement
by building it so tall? | 0:01:29 | 0:01:32 | |
I don't really remember. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:36 | |
The reason why it is
the tallest, I don't remember. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:40 | |
I don't really care. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:41 | |
It was actually taller
in the beginning. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:51 | |
But then they said that
you cannot because | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
it would interfere
with the flight paths. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:55 | |
We stopped. | 0:01:56 | 0:01:56 | |
The building is now 310 metres. | 0:01:56 | 0:01:59 | |
We still decided to go up to 400. | 0:01:59 | 0:02:01 | |
It was almost not finished. | 0:02:01 | 0:02:02 | |
People believe it is not finished. | 0:02:02 | 0:02:06 | |
Simply desiring to go higher,
but not going higher. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:13 | |
This idea that a building
does not finish. | 0:02:13 | 0:02:20 | |
It stands like that. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:27 | |
The last piece of
glass goes like that. | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
If you need them to
go, they can go up. | 0:02:30 | 0:02:32 | |
This is part of the game. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:34 | |
We did not try to make
the tallest building in Europe. | 0:02:34 | 0:02:37 | |
It just happened by chance? | 0:02:37 | 0:02:38 | |
It happened by chance. | 0:02:38 | 0:02:39 | |
Also because if you want to put
all of those functions, | 0:02:39 | 0:02:42 | |
because this building has | 0:02:42 | 0:02:43 | |
at least six or seven
different functions. | 0:02:44 | 0:02:46 | |
It is like a little vertical city. | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
It is like a village. | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
-- You have transportation,
public transportation - | 0:02:57 | 0:02:59 | |
you come up and you have
trains and buses. | 0:02:59 | 0:03:01 | |
You have shops. | 0:03:01 | 0:03:02 | |
You have offices. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:03 | |
You have a public space. | 0:03:03 | 0:03:04 | |
You have a hotel. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:12 | |
And then we have the
viewing platform. | 0:03:12 | 0:03:14 | |
It is a long time since you first
drew the plans for it. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:17 | |
When you are designing something
and thinking about what it must look | 0:03:17 | 0:03:20 | |
like, you are now in a situation
for the past few months | 0:03:21 | 0:03:24 | |
where it is approaching
completeness, how do | 0:03:24 | 0:03:26 | |
you feel about it? | 0:03:26 | 0:03:36 | |
As an architect, if you make
something wrong it is wrong forever. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:39 | |
If you are a musician,
you make music. | 0:03:39 | 0:03:41 | |
You understand that
something is wrong. | 0:03:41 | 0:03:43 | |
What you do is the real thing. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:45 | |
Then you do it again. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:50 | |
When you make a sculpture,
what is in front of you | 0:03:50 | 0:03:53 | |
is the sculpture. | 0:03:53 | 0:04:00 | |
If you are making architecture,
you do not judge the real thing. | 0:04:00 | 0:04:03 | |
You judge the drawing
of the real thing. | 0:04:03 | 0:04:05 | |
The model. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:05 | |
The rendering. | 0:04:06 | 0:04:07 | |
You have to use your imagination. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:08 | |
You need to figure out
what it will be in reality. | 0:04:09 | 0:04:11 | |
That would suggest that
if there is something wrong with it, | 0:04:12 | 0:04:14 | |
you cannot fix it. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:16 | |
Exactly. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:16 | |
That's the tragedy. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:20 | |
That's the reason why,
as an architect, it is | 0:04:21 | 0:04:23 | |
a very dangerous job. | 0:04:23 | 0:04:24 | |
Dangerous for you, but even more
dangerous for other people. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:27 | |
If you do something
wrong, it is forever. | 0:04:27 | 0:04:29 | |
What did you think when you saw it? | 0:04:29 | 0:04:31 | |
I think it is fine. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:32 | |
I stopped crossing my
fingers a few months ago. | 0:04:33 | 0:04:38 | |
You do everything you
can to make it right. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:45 | |
But the truth is that you understand
if it is right or wrong only then. | 0:04:45 | 0:04:51 | |
When it's built. | 0:04:51 | 0:04:52 | |
I'll tell you if I
think it is right. | 0:04:52 | 0:04:54 | |
But I did not know exactly. | 0:04:54 | 0:04:58 | |
I wasn't sure. | 0:04:59 | 0:05:04 | |
To listen to you, you seem to think
it might not perhaps be good enough? | 0:05:04 | 0:05:08 | |
What is wrong with it? | 0:05:08 | 0:05:09 | |
In school, I grew up
with the idea that other people | 0:05:09 | 0:05:14 | |
are always better than you. | 0:05:14 | 0:05:16 | |
I grew up with the idea that
what you do is maybe fine. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:20 | |
Surprisingly fine. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:20 | |
But probably not good enough. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:23 | |
So you grow up thinking that other
people are better than you. | 0:05:23 | 0:05:28 | |
Even now, 75, I still feel that
every time I do something right, | 0:05:28 | 0:05:31 | |
it is a miracle. | 0:05:31 | 0:05:41 | |
It is something surprising. | 0:05:41 | 0:05:42 | |
I do not live in the sensation that
everything I do is right. | 0:05:42 | 0:05:46 | |
It is always a great surprise. | 0:05:46 | 0:05:47 | |
It would be quite
hard to live in that. | 0:05:48 | 0:05:50 | |
Not least because of some
of the comments made. | 0:05:50 | 0:06:00 | |
Particularly one of the criticisms
that it is out of proportion. | 0:06:01 | 0:06:03 | |
Here you are outside
the Tower Bridge and St Paul's. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:11 | |
And you have this
massive glass shard. | 0:06:11 | 0:06:12 | |
The chairman of the National Trust
said that this tower is anarchy. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:16 | |
It conforms to no planning policy. | 0:06:16 | 0:06:21 | |
It seems to have lost its way
from Dubai to Canary Wharf. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:25 | |
I know that criticism. | 0:06:25 | 0:06:26 | |
I think it is wrong. | 0:06:26 | 0:06:33 | |
One of the most important
things for an architect | 0:06:33 | 0:06:35 | |
because we are making | 0:06:35 | 0:06:37 | |
a dangerous job is
to listen to people. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
It is one of the most
important things of the work. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
It is easiest to learn. | 0:06:42 | 0:06:43 | |
It does not mean you listen
and then you are obedient. | 0:06:43 | 0:06:46 | |
You listen to understand. | 0:06:46 | 0:06:47 | |
One thing you do when you do this
kind of building is to listen | 0:06:47 | 0:06:51 | |
to people and accept criticism. | 0:06:51 | 0:06:52 | |
For this job, we went
through a public inquiry. | 0:06:52 | 0:06:55 | |
It lasted almost two years. | 0:06:55 | 0:07:05 | |
A public inquiry is not something
unusual in this country. | 0:07:05 | 0:07:11 | |
You do it for big and
complicated things. | 0:07:11 | 0:07:13 | |
They decided to do this. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:18 | |
The arguments were brought out. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:19 | |
The argument was whether
it was right or wrong. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:27 | |
Another criticism levelled
against it is that in a sense | 0:07:27 | 0:07:30 | |
it is a metaphor
for wealth and power. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:32 | |
An art critic says it is a monument
to wealth and power runaway | 0:07:32 | 0:07:36 | |
out of control. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:36 | |
A flashing warning sign of disease. | 0:07:37 | 0:07:40 | |
Yeah, you know, I think
of different things. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:45 | |
On this one, I think there is a lot
of distortion on this one. | 0:07:45 | 0:07:49 | |
When you go through this building
and you realise that what is open | 0:07:49 | 0:07:53 | |
to the viewing platform will be
visited by 5,000 people per day. | 0:07:53 | 0:07:56 | |
The office will be used by something
like 5,000 people per day. | 0:07:56 | 0:08:04 | |
They are not rich people. | 0:08:04 | 0:08:05 | |
You have to pay £25. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:08 | |
£25 is too much. | 0:08:08 | 0:08:20 | |
In this town, everything costs £25. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:21 | |
I told them it was too much. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:23 | |
I tried. | 0:08:23 | 0:08:24 | |
What did they say? | 0:08:24 | 0:08:25 | |
Everybody says that in this town,
everything costs at least £25. | 0:08:25 | 0:08:29 | |
But it doesn't. | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
I told my colleague,
I was with my wife to go around | 0:08:32 | 0:08:36 | |
to all of those little
shows on the bottom. | 0:08:36 | 0:08:46 | |
They all cost £25-30. | 0:08:46 | 0:08:52 | |
The London Eye costs £28-30. | 0:08:52 | 0:08:53 | |
It is too expensive. | 0:08:53 | 0:08:56 | |
It is too expensive. | 0:08:56 | 0:08:57 | |
It is too expensive. | 0:08:57 | 0:08:58 | |
It is too expensive. | 0:08:58 | 0:09:05 | |
I agree because one of the aims
of this building is to give it | 0:09:05 | 0:09:09 | |
to the people. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:10 | |
And to be public. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:12 | |
And for some, costing
£25 is too much. | 0:09:12 | 0:09:14 | |
That is for sure. | 0:09:14 | 0:09:22 | |
But argument is that anyawy,
that this is the normal price. | 0:09:22 | 0:09:25 | |
If you go to New York,
if you go to the top | 0:09:25 | 0:09:28 | |
of the Empire State Building,
you spend more than that. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
One of the things discussed is that
whether it is a metaphor | 0:09:31 | 0:09:37 | |
to wealth and power,
rather than to the people. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:39 | |
I think it is wrong. | 0:09:39 | 0:09:40 | |
We got something
a bit too moralistic. | 0:09:40 | 0:09:43 | |
If you look more carefully,
you will find that this building | 0:09:43 | 0:09:52 | |
will be used every day by ten
thousand people at least. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:55 | |
How much of the building
has been let out? | 0:09:55 | 0:09:57 | |
I think it is only the restaurant... | 0:09:57 | 0:09:59 | |
The hotel? | 0:09:59 | 0:10:01 | |
The hotel. | 0:10:01 | 0:10:08 | |
This part, the others,
they are still discussing. | 0:10:08 | 0:10:10 | |
But they are not let
because they do not find a tenant. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:17 | |
They are not let because they
have their own policy. | 0:10:17 | 0:10:20 | |
The policy of those people
being that they wait for the right | 0:10:20 | 0:10:23 | |
moment to rent and all that. | 0:10:23 | 0:10:25 | |
They want it to be empty? | 0:10:25 | 0:10:30 | |
Is that what you're saying? | 0:10:30 | 0:10:32 | |
Yes. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
Up until the building
being finished. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:37 | |
The building will be finished
in about six months. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:40 | |
The hotel will open in June. | 0:10:40 | 0:10:41 | |
The official public opening of this
building was last summer. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:44 | |
We have not heard anything
about the occupants. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:46 | |
It is like a city. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:47 | |
You do not open a building
in a single day. | 0:10:48 | 0:10:51 | |
You bring energy across the river. | 0:10:51 | 0:10:55 | |
And then, then you make
public transportation. | 0:10:55 | 0:10:57 | |
Then you make a vertical city. | 0:10:57 | 0:10:59 | |
It is not one of those buildings
that closes in the evening. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:08 | |
And you know, I think that
all of this discussion | 0:11:08 | 0:11:10 | |
about the fact that this building | 0:11:10 | 0:11:12 | |
is a kind of monument to money
is just a distortion. | 0:11:12 | 0:11:15 | |
Because... | 0:11:15 | 0:11:15 | |
It will not be proven
by events, you say? | 0:11:16 | 0:11:20 | |
Yes, for sure. | 0:11:20 | 0:11:21 | |
I am very pragmatic. | 0:11:21 | 0:11:28 | |
And I am very keen about that,
because at my age, I grew up knowing | 0:11:28 | 0:11:32 | |
that by making architecture,
you have to be a good builder. | 0:11:32 | 0:11:35 | |
Your father was a builder. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:39 | |
You have to be a poet,
but you have to be militant. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:43 | |
You have to be a social worker. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:46 | |
You have to have this kind
of ethical dimension. | 0:11:46 | 0:11:49 | |
The argument is very simple. | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
This building will be lived daily
by 10,000 people per day. | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
Some will be rich. | 0:11:55 | 0:11:56 | |
But no more than 50 or 60 people. | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
You have made so many
different types of buildings | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
all around the world. | 0:12:01 | 0:12:07 | |
You look at your work,
whether it's art galleries, | 0:12:07 | 0:12:09 | |
museums in the United States, | 0:12:09 | 0:12:13 | |
churches in Europe, an airport
terminal in Japan... | 0:12:13 | 0:12:15 | |
You look at them and
they are all unique. | 0:12:15 | 0:12:17 | |
There is no singular or something
that would stand out | 0:12:18 | 0:12:20 | |
as a Renzo Piano style
of architecture. | 0:12:20 | 0:12:23 | |
And I wonder if when you look at all
of those, what is most rewarding? | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
Is it that you see,
from what you said before it is not | 0:12:28 | 0:12:33 | |
the tallest building,
not the most striking... | 0:12:33 | 0:12:39 | |
Yeah, I think that what is rewarding
to me is to be part of the human | 0:12:39 | 0:12:43 | |
adventure of architecture. | 0:12:43 | 0:12:52 | |
You know, the reason
why - why - why I... | 0:12:52 | 0:12:54 | |
I am very diffident towards style, | 0:12:54 | 0:12:56 | |
not just for architecture,
but for everybody, is a kind | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
of golden cage. | 0:12:59 | 0:12:59 | |
You get trapped in the style. | 0:13:00 | 0:13:01 | |
And then you have to repeat it. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:03 | |
What is great about architecture
or a job like journalism | 0:13:03 | 0:13:06 | |
or movie-making is the adventure. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:18 | |
The sense of adventure. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:30 | |
The architect is like a kind
of like a Robinson Crusoe. | 0:13:31 | 0:13:34 | |
Robinson Crusoe landed
in a new island every time and made | 0:13:34 | 0:13:37 | |
a new adventure. | 0:13:37 | 0:13:37 | |
That is exactly what happens. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:39 | |
If you are trapped in your own
style, you have to repeat it. | 0:13:39 | 0:13:40 | |
Is it changing people's lives? | 0:13:40 | 0:13:46 | |
If you ask me about language
and style, there is a lot of this | 0:13:46 | 0:13:50 | |
language of coherence coming from... | 0:13:50 | 0:13:55 | |
Much of that comes
from my childhood. | 0:13:55 | 0:14:04 | |
I was born in Genoa,
in a city of sea and water, | 0:14:04 | 0:14:07 | |
where everything flies. | 0:14:07 | 0:14:10 | |
It is a fantastic city. | 0:14:10 | 0:14:12 | |
Stone and water. | 0:14:12 | 0:14:15 | |
Stone in the historical centre,
water in the harbour. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:21 | |
Everything floats, everything flies,
from the ships to the cranes, | 0:14:21 | 0:14:27 | |
they do not touch ground,
the ships are buoyed. | 0:14:27 | 0:14:32 | |
If you look at my age
for what I can call, | 0:14:32 | 0:14:36 | |
not style, but coherence,
language, and... | 0:14:36 | 0:14:46 | |
And yet here we are in a building
that is very much of a certain | 0:14:46 | 0:14:50 | |
fashion, the glass. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:53 | |
Prince Charles has said,
I'm afraid that the building tends | 0:14:53 | 0:14:55 | |
very quickly to become
unfashionable, tired, | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
outdated, no longer contemporary. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:05 | |
It is ripe for demolition
and replacement. | 0:15:05 | 0:15:08 | |
He also refers to energy
guzzling glass boxes. | 0:15:08 | 0:15:14 | |
I remember the world of the judge. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:17 | |
They made the judgement
of the public inquiry. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:25 | |
The judge after 18 months
of discussion, he said, | 0:15:25 | 0:15:33 | |
even St Paul's at
the time was modern. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:38 | |
And it was controversial. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
If it is good, it is good. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:43 | |
Every classic has been at a certain
moment modern and contemporary. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:48 | |
Will this become a classic
like St Paul's Cathedral? | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
No idea. | 0:15:51 | 0:15:52 | |
I'd be arrogant to say so. | 0:15:52 | 0:15:57 | |
I am saying for me the problem
is not to be classical or to be | 0:15:57 | 0:16:01 | |
modern, it is to be
good or to be bad. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:05 | |
If you are good,
there is nothing wrong. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:11 | |
European cities have layers
of different moments, | 0:16:11 | 0:16:17 | |
celebrating and
representing their time. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:24 | |
The problem is whether
you are good or not. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:27 | |
I do not trust Prince
Charles's judgement. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:31 | |
I think this building will be
great for centuries. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:35 | |
It's not arrogant. | 0:16:35 | 0:16:37 | |
It is actually very light,
it is like a crystal presence, | 0:16:38 | 0:16:40 | |
it is not killing anything. | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
It is very gentle. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:47 | |
So you do not trust his judgement
on this building, do | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
you trust his judgement
on other architecture? | 0:16:50 | 0:16:55 | |
He's quite right on many points by
criticising modern architecture... | 0:16:55 | 0:17:00 | |
We have to be honest. | 0:17:00 | 0:17:01 | |
It's created disasters in the past. | 0:17:01 | 0:17:07 | |
But you cannot turn your back... | 0:17:07 | 0:17:15 | |
I prefer not to talk
too much about that. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:21 | |
I know that in everybody's
judgement, there is always something | 0:17:21 | 0:17:24 | |
good to take, but for me,
but there is one thing important, | 0:17:24 | 0:17:27 | |
you have to be yourself. | 0:17:27 | 0:17:36 | |
If you live in a time
that is the 21st century, | 0:17:36 | 0:17:39 | |
you have to belong to it. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:41 | |
What is quite interesting
is that you are talking | 0:17:41 | 0:17:43 | |
about vertical cities. | 0:17:43 | 0:17:45 | |
In a way, that was a fashion
at a certain time, streets | 0:17:45 | 0:17:48 | |
in the sky. | 0:17:48 | 0:17:49 | |
Now there is a move away
from high-rises because people | 0:17:49 | 0:17:52 | |
do not want to live
on top of each other. | 0:17:52 | 0:17:56 | |
You can create denser,
more efficient, better living space | 0:17:56 | 0:17:59 | |
with old-fashioned terraces. | 0:17:59 | 0:18:04 | |
This is wrong. | 0:18:04 | 0:18:06 | |
I am sorry. | 0:18:06 | 0:18:08 | |
It is totally wrong. | 0:18:08 | 0:18:10 | |
Today, the 21st century,
the most important discovery | 0:18:10 | 0:18:12 | |
is the fragility of earth. | 0:18:12 | 0:18:18 | |
The most unsustainable thing that
you can think of are the periphery, | 0:18:18 | 0:18:21 | |
the sprawl of little
cottages and houses. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:28 | |
Forget it. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
It is impossible. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:32 | |
It is not sustainable in any sense. | 0:18:32 | 0:18:34 | |
It's just a romantic idea. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:40 | |
So in energy terms, a glass building
like this is better? | 0:18:40 | 0:18:43 | |
It spends 10 times less. | 0:18:43 | 0:18:47 | |
It is better than little villas. | 0:18:47 | 0:18:51 | |
This building, with the system
we use for keeping the things out | 0:18:51 | 0:18:55 | |
is incredibly efficient... | 0:18:55 | 0:19:03 | |
Even if you are tackling
the problems of the banlieue, | 0:19:04 | 0:19:07 | |
Paris suburbs, you would suggest
that you put these high-rises, | 0:19:07 | 0:19:11 | |
you would create cities
on the peripheries? | 0:19:11 | 0:19:14 | |
I am not saying so. | 0:19:14 | 0:19:21 | |
The solution of the cities is not
to make a new periphery. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:28 | |
It is not solved by making new
periphery and creating new tragedy. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:34 | |
The solution is not
expansion by explosion. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:38 | |
The solution is
expansion by implosion. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:43 | |
The opposite. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:45 | |
It is the only sustainable road. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:50 | |
Especially in a city like London. | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
It is to grow from inside,
building on what we call brownfield. | 0:19:54 | 0:20:03 | |
In brownfield, in London,
lots of brownfields. | 0:20:03 | 0:20:08 | |
Even in Berlin,
I built on brownfield. | 0:20:08 | 0:20:17 | |
It was the little space left
between the East and West. | 0:20:17 | 0:20:28 | |
In cities, dense like Barcelona... | 0:20:28 | 0:20:34 | |
There is always the
possibility to grow. | 0:20:34 | 0:20:39 | |
It doesn't mean that I preach
the value of putting | 0:20:39 | 0:20:41 | |
tall buildings everywhere. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:47 | |
I say that sometimes. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:50 | |
A building like this one,
it makes sense to go up and show... | 0:20:50 | 0:20:56 | |
Can I ask you finally about how
you judge the success of a building? | 0:20:56 | 0:21:05 | |
Because I happened to recognise
you outside out on the street. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:09 | |
You were spying on people,
listening to hear what they were | 0:21:09 | 0:21:13 | |
saying about it? | 0:21:13 | 0:21:20 | |
Is that how you judge the success? | 0:21:20 | 0:21:25 | |
Not because I am a perverse person,
but I learnt that a long time ago | 0:21:25 | 0:21:32 | |
after I did the Pompidou Centre
in Paris, Roberto Rossellini, | 0:21:32 | 0:21:38 | |
he was making a movie. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:42 | |
He was watching me. | 0:21:42 | 0:21:45 | |
He said, you should not
look at the building, | 0:21:45 | 0:21:49 | |
you should see the face of people
looking at the building. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:57 | |
You have to look at the mirror of
the building on the face of people. | 0:21:57 | 0:22:04 | |
Since then, I did the same thing. | 0:22:04 | 0:22:11 | |
I do it in the most
natural way I can. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:16 | |
I listen and I watch people. | 0:22:16 | 0:22:19 | |
What do you see? | 0:22:19 | 0:22:22 | |
Surprise, wonder. | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
Not fear. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:30 | |
Many say, oh, this is
the way, we are here. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:36 | |
They use the building
as a new reference in this city. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
They find their way by it. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:44 | |
Sometimes they argue over
whether it is finished. | 0:22:44 | 0:22:56 | |
The problem is very simple. | 0:22:56 | 0:22:58 | |
I do not like to surprise people. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
I don't like to be controversial. | 0:23:01 | 0:23:05 | |
But if you are an architect,
and you don't waste your time | 0:23:05 | 0:23:13 | |
with stupid things, you find
yourself celebrating shifts | 0:23:13 | 0:23:15 | |
in the society. | 0:23:15 | 0:23:17 | |
In some way, that is what happened. | 0:23:17 | 0:23:25 | |
A long time ago, and we were young
bad boys, we got to celebrate a big | 0:23:25 | 0:23:29 | |
shift in society. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:33 | |
With the Pompidou Centre. | 0:23:33 | 0:23:35 | |
It changed the way that
people thought of you. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:37 | |
Caused a big fuss. | 0:23:37 | 0:23:38 | |
Someone had to do the dirty job. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:40 | |
We need a place creating
curiosity and welcome. | 0:23:40 | 0:23:46 | |
In between, I had done many other
things like that, in Chicago. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:52 | |
Here, it is the same thing. | 0:23:53 | 0:24:01 | |
As an architect, you don't change
the world, but celebrate the change. | 0:24:01 | 0:24:05 | |
Renzo Piano, thank you for
coming on HARDtalk. | 0:24:05 | 0:24:11 |