Mohammad Jawad - Plastic, Reconstructive and Burns Surgeon HARDtalk


Mohammad Jawad - Plastic, Reconstructive and Burns Surgeon

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to perverti to pervertiurse of justice. That is the latest news. Now on BBC

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My guest today is renowned British plastic surgeon, Dr Mohammad Jawad,

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who has helped reconstruct the faces of women disfigured by acid

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attacks. He featured in an Oscar- winning documentary about his

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humanitarian work in his native Pakistan. His high public profile

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has helped raise awareness about the life-destroying nature of acid

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attacks in Pakistan and elsewhere in Asia. But can it bring about

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real change and action to help bring down the level of such

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Dr Mohammad Jawad, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You think of

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plastic surgery and you think of cosmetic surgery, does the glamour

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end of your business worry you? is a misnomer, cosmetic is part of

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plastic surgery. In training we go through all phases of plastic and

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reconstructive training. That includes the aesthetic part, some

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people focus on that, but it is all the same process. You said in

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February I want to restore the glory of plastic surgeons, boob

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jobs, breast jobs have overshadowed our work restoring patients who are

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recovering from cancer... It sounds like you are a bit worried. Plastic

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surgery evolved during wartime injuries. Burns and burns

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reconstruction. Air force pilots were there for many years in

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reconstruction. It started with the burns, war injuries and deformities,

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to reconstruct and rehabilitate these people to become effective

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members of society. The question is, how comfortable do you feel about

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the two ends of your work? understand you do very important

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reconstructive work, but you do carry out operations on healthy

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people for cosmetic reasons. Doctors are there to make people

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better, not just for vanity reasons. How do you feel about it? They are

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not contradictory to each other. This person, who is relatively not

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so happy in terms of reconstruction, you restore that. Somebody looking

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for cosmetic, is also not happy for that reason. We restore that part

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of the body. You see no contradiction. Do you see a paradox

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that you do operations to augment some women's breasts, but you also

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deal with women who are the victims of acid attacks, the result of some

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kind of sexual harassment, if a woman has spurned a man's unwanted

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advances... I do not want to be judgmental about it. My job as a

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plastic surgeon, we do not seek or like any physical deformity on any

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individual. Whether that is a state of mind, I am not going to go into

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what causes that, but I have a care of duty. You do not see the paradox

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that I set out for you? Not really. I know they are different. I do not

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think they are related directly. You started your medical training

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in Karachi, where you're from. Then you moved to the Republic of

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Ireland for further training and then you came to the UK. You have

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been going back to Pakistan to perform humanitarian operations,

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such as women who have been disfigured by acid attacks. You

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have said you feel like to have a moral obligation to do so, what do

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you mean? Education in Pakistan is actually free. I graduated from

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college, you may not believe that I ended up paying for my whole

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graduation. �80. That was a poor country, taxpayer money to educate

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doctors, engineers, lawyers... All university graduates completely

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subsidised. What we ended up doing, because there were not many

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prospects, we got the first flight out and came out of the country. We

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did not look back. Frankly speaking, that is what happened. There were a

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lot of opportunities for us to return, but then we got involved

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training, family issues... You put your personal ambitions ahead of

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helping your country. Other doctors like you who leave countries in the

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developing world where they have benefited from the education but

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want the life in the West... We did not realise. You look back and

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reflect, hang on, what has been happening? It was not clear to you

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at an earlier stage? It was an opportunity to get out. There was

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never a guilt factor. You are part of what is known as the brain drain.

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Doctors, other medical personnel from Asia, Africa, working in

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Western nations. A lot of people have said this is not acceptable.

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Let me ask you this, on a personal level you say you feel you have a

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moral obligation to give something back to the country who trained you.

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Should there not be something more formal than that? Should doctors be

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forced to in some way? Should there be some compensation? In 2005 we

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had the Kashmir earthquake. I tell you, at that time a doctor from the

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West, Pakistani originally... 9999 and that point, I think the feeling

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became very acute that we were living in a controlled situation in

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the West. This actually brought us up. No moral or legal

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responsibility. It was a very sticky point for me. I need to

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start thinking in terms of going back. But it is voluntary.

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Developing countries are effectively paying to train staff

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to support the whole services of developed countries. That is true.

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Rather than having a voluntary activity such as yours, should

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there be something more formal? Compensation from doctors like you

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who have left the country? I agree. We are working on that.

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Collectively we could have a comprehensive way of giving back.

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It will come into legal terminology. Cash paying back to the society

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that gave us... It is an investment of my own poor society into me.

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What will be the dividend for the society? It is a very important

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question. The Acid Survivors Foundation says there are 150 cases

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of women who have been attacked. That does not just go on in

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Pakistan, but in South East Asia, Latin America, even here in the UK.

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You were involved in a documentary last year looking at these two

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young women. We see you visibly moved when you are talking to them

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and treating them. What did you find so moving about their cases?

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have been going to Pakistan every few months. I have being involved

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in different parts of the surgery. I know we have problems. It is not

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a perfect society. But this aspect of my society I was not aware of.

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You did not know about acid attacks? I did not. Honest to God.

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When did you find out? I got involved looking after Katie Piper.

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Her jealous ex-boyfriend... Yes, March 2008. This was the worst seen

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I had come across. You did not know until you had treated Katie Piper

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in 2008 that young people in Pakistan were being attacked? Your

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wife is a consultant gynaecologist. Even she did not know? We never

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came across it. This was never an issue. It was only a few months

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later I was talking to one of my old bosses... Somebody likes you,

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who maintains their links to Pakistan, even you were not aware

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that this kind of thing went on? I only learned about it in the latter

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part of 2008. She had heard about your work. It was brushed under the

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carpet? She was bringing awareness. But yes, it is something under the

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carpet. In the film, Saving Face, a woman, 39 years of age, attacked by

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her in-laws. Terribly disfigured. She could not find any way to

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support herself, she had to go back and live with the people who

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carried out the horrible attack on her. Yes, that is a tragedy. I was

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not surprised, I was shocked. I am aware of certain aspects of society,

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that society can be so apathetic to such people I was not aware. What

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was it like when you saw someone in that situation? A young, attractive

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woman who was so horribly disfigured? I'm just beginning to

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learn this aspect of society to be honest. I was never aware of it.

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Why men do it. I just learned the different causes, believe me.

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is it like when you yourself, you're a father of two daughters.

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When you see these young women in this situation, as a father, as a

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doctor? It breaks my heart. It breaks my heart that men can be so

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low to act... If you are not listening to me, I have to deface

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her. To achieve what I cannot These women are psychologically

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scarred. If your physicality is destroyed, it is very difficult to

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heal. Most people see beauty is skin deep but... If you take the

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face away, it is the portal of communication. And they're young

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women. We have women like this and they are almost the walking dead.

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I'm trying to... I was not trying to be angry, I was trying to

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compartmentalise. I thought, "Listen, whatever's happened has

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happened. What can I do to physically restore this damage?"

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Conscientiously, I had to concentrate on what I could do best

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and let other people look into the causes. I was going to ask you this.

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You've said, all I can do is use my skills to patch people up and give

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them a better face. Is that really all you can do? Well, I managed to

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speak with them because I can speak their language and I was able to

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understand and listen to them. I was involved with Katie, getting

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her to tell her story. That was therapeutic for her. Similarly,

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when we got involved with the patients, we could listen. They can

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be brave, become real heroes. These ladies who have come out and tell

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their stories, maybe they can save more lives. By coming out and

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speaking and saying what? That this is what men have been doing. We

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have been protecting men in our society unnecessarily. Men are the

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weaker sex. We are not looking after women. Again, it is against

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religion. Let me say to you, for me, the reason was shocking. My

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religion Islam came to liberate women 1,400 years ago. That is my

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understanding. And has given the first equal rights to women. In my

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religion, the mother is the primary source. So you are supposed to

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protect your women - your wife, your daughter, your women. And

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where this behaviour comes from, I could not figure it out. Because I

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said, "You are a deeply religious country. Why...?" You say that you

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patch people up but you actually have a very high public profile.

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You are the subject of this Oscar award-winning documentary. You are

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here speaking on television. You can be more than a doctor. You can

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raise awareness of this terrible disaster that befalls women not

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only in Pakistan but around the world. You can go beyond being a

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doctor. If you look at Malala Yousafzai, she is not just a

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student anymore, she is an activist and campaigner for girls' education

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around the world. Will you just remain a plastic surgeon and

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perform these operations or will you go further and try to say, "I

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am actually going to start a campaign to bring in the right laws,

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make sure they are implemented so that this kind of violence against

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women is no longer tolerated for whatever reason in our society"?

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will share with you... I know you're trying to challenge me, to

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get into public life. We managed to change the law for the first time.

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You will be pleased to know that the man who threw the acid received

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two life sentences. We have set the ball rolling in that part of the

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world. A new law that sentences people who do this in Pakistan to

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many years in prison. Yes. We are getting involved in India as well.

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We are learning from it. Of course, this campaign is much bigger than

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the individual. It's a bigger... This is a women's issue, an

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opportunity issue, giving them empowerment and raising their

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profile. And I, as a simple person, I am trying the best I can to use

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whatever I have to actually help these women. You say that this is a

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women's issue. And indeed you have one woman Pakistani MP who helped

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get that legislation passed which gives heavier prison sentences to

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acid attackers but she says there is still a lack of political will.

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She says it's difficult to get the police to co-operate with the women

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because they are under no pressure to do so. We see similar trends of

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gender-based violence in India. There are not enough women in the

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police forces and so on. So, it's not just the women you have to get

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to speak out. You have got to talk to the men as well. Are you talking

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to those men in power as a man yourself? I am. And you will be

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pleased to know that we are starting a new campaign. That

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country is very influenced by the mullahs and the imams. We are

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educating those people in the countryside. There are set verses

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in the Koran about the role of women and the respect that must be

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given to women in society. And we are encouraging them to spread that.

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They must be educated. These men are not very well educated in that

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part of the world. 44% of children in Pakistan have stunted growth. We

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have a problem. So you see poverty, a lack of literacy... And then we

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have the negative influence of these religious figures as well.

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And we try to convince them that they can actually become a force of

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good. Do you think they are listening? How do you do this? Do

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you travel around these rural areas? I don't but we have people

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who have the relationship and they are a good way to approach and

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spread the word. It is like the mindset needs to be changed, the

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mindset that has been there for years. It won't change over night.

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It is a difficult job. It is a difficult job to transform a

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society. Look, evolution... I benefit from living in an open

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society in Britain and the West. And we fought for the rights. The

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men encourage women and the women encourage the men and democracy

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prospers. We are in a different type of world. We're fighting,

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there's conflict. The damaging part in my opinion in Pakistan's history

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is when it legally, reduced the rights of the woman. The former

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president? In 1979, 1980. I can't remember exactly. The whole

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generation started treating women as second class. That was never the

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case before. That is the root cause of the problem that gives rise to

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this kind of violence? I personally think it went unchecked because

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women became second class. I mean, somebody's son is killed in front

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of a lady, her witness will not be accepted in the court of law.

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how do you... You have said there are people who go to the

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countryside areas to get women to speak out when this kind of

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violence is perpetrated against them and also to change the mindset,

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but it is difficult. In your own film, there was a 22-year-old

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Pakistani woman who lost one eye in an acid attack and when the film

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was shown in Pakistan, she was very worried. She said it was

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disrespecting her family and they would make an issue of it. We may

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now be in more danger and we're scared of that. She does not want

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to show her face to the world. Did that worry you, that in some cases

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it might reveal the fact that these people think the time is not right

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to speak out? It is difficult, I agree. Everybody took a risk. We

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became very unpopular as well. Why did we show this aspect? But it is

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an important aspect of society. And these film-makers were very brave

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people and the women who came forward to tell the story were very

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brave. When you shake the system up, some people will be upset. They'll

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threaten you. And I am sure these women felt threatened. It is a very

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patriarchal society but something has to happen. It has to change.

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The one thing that I am trying to encourage is for men to come

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forward to denounce this activity. In Bangladesh, they brought a huge

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group of men, 10,000 men, denouncing violence. And now, in

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the last five years, they have brought it down. My final question

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is this. You are a renowned plastic surgeon for your reconstructive

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work. Do you believe that now your high profile has raised awareness

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of acid burn victims to the extent that we are now seeing real efforts

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to bring about change and action that will not only reduce but

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eliminate such acts of violence? Yes. And I am hoping that if we can

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