Khaled Meshaal - Leader of the Political Bureau of Hamas HARDtalk

target it at jobs. Those are the headlines. It's now

HARDtalk has come to Qatar, for an exclusive interview with Khaled

Meshaal, the leader of the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas.

He used to be based in Damascus but broke ranks with President Assad

after the oppression of the Syrian uprising. His presence here is one

more sign of change in the Middle East. But what about change in the

Israeli Palestinian conflict? Does have mass have anything new to

Khaled Meshaal, welcome to HARDtalk. Four in December of last year, you

visited Gaza and you said that there Hamas had scored a famous

victory over Israel during that week or so of confrontation in

November. But do you accept that that most recent confrontation

changed nothing when it comes to the strategic balance in the

region? TRANSLATION: As a matter of fact, we can't claim to have

defeated Israel ought to have restored our homeland or in the way

we aspire to. -- in the way. Israel started the aggression when they

assassinated the market leader. It was a time when Egypt was seeking a

truce. That was treachery. The Palestinian response led by Hamas

and with the occupation of the other resistant faction was great

and to Israel by surprise and created confusion on their part.

The second point is the outcome of the war. Israel started the war. It

ended only when the terms of the Resistance were met, opposite to

what is rare wanted. Binyamin Netanyahu did not think about the

war, he just wanted to have victory over Hamas and the resistance in

Gaza. The result was it backfired. The war was ended according to the

conditions of the Resistance and this is a great achievement.

I do not want to waste time going over who started that particular

confrontation. The his review is very different. But I am interested

in the nature of the language you use when he went to Gaza afterwards.

-- the Israeli view is very. You said Palestine is hours from the

Jordan river to the sea. -- ours. There will be no concession of any

inch of land, you said. It was the most uncompromising and hardline

speech and yet it does not actually fit with the rhetoric that you and

other Hamas leaders have used at different times in the last year.

What is going on? TRANSLATION: In regard to the conflict of the

Palestinian land, you are speaking of the established principles. What

I said in Gaza was an expression of the feeling of the average

Palestinian citizen. I am a representative of these great

people. I was in Gaza amongst them, telling them it is our homeland. It

is our right. We are the ones who have been assaulted. But hang on,

if you are saying it was natural emotion, are you telling me it was

nothing more than symbolism? It is not something that should be taken

seriously, in terms of the politics of any future negotiation?

TRANSLATION: What I have stated in Gaza is not contradictory to our

made two statements. One, with the Palestinians have always been

prepared to resort to any means that spares us war and bloodshed on

the condition it restores our right. We have adopted any peaceful

methods if they persisted as in that but we waited and they failed

us. We were forced to resort to resistance. Nobody should blame us

for that. Secondly, week in Hamas were and are still prepared to

engage with the Palestinian and Arab agreement that works to

achieve the agreement of common denominators. Hamas did not back

down on this. We will talk about internal Palestinian reconciliation

later but I just want to nail down what your current position is on

the question of a true state -- the two-state solution, to provide a

lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinian. One of Saudi

newspaper the other day reported that you are now prepared to accept

a permanent lasting peace based on a two-state solution. You have told

this, according to the newspaper, to King Abdullah and you have asked

him to be relayed this message to President Obama. Is that true?

TRANSLATION: This is not true. Hamas issued a statement refuting

what that newspaper has published. The two-state solution was not

addressed with King Abdullah doing my recent visit to Jordan. The

whole world knows that Hamas has never stated that it believes in

these two-state solution. It believes in the Palestinian state.

What is absent from the region is the Palestinian state. The

Palestinian people are seeking their own state and do not care

about their enemy. This enemy is occupying our land. I am concerned

with a Palestinian state. The issue is not a two-state solution. The

issue is Palestinian status. with respect, the issue is the two-

state solution. Because no Palestinian opinion poll that I

have seen suggest that the Palestinian people as a whole

belief that you are ever going to recover what you call the

Palestinian National Right to all of the land between the Jordan

river and the sea. What they do seem to believe, and many support,

is the notion of a Palestinian state inside the 1967 lines, that

is the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. The question is simple.

Can you accept a state side by side with Israel on the 67 lines? Yes or

no? TRANSLATION: Yasser Arafat has accepted the two-state solution but

the not achieve a Palestinian state. Hummus also agreed to the two-state

solution but he did not get the Palestinian state. -- High Mass.

Today, I say to the world and the American administration, the second

Obama administration, that the political approach to the region

must change. Do not demand the Palestinians to offer any new

initiatives. We say it is our right to claim all of Palestine. But we

want to achieve what is possible in the light of the Palestinian and

Arab consensus over it. We accept the 1967 borders. The stake to the

1967 borders and with Jerusalem as the capital and maintain the right

to return. These are the demands agreed by the Arabs and

Palestinians. If the Americans and the international community managed

to force Israel to comply with that. Then you can discuss the

establishment of a Palestinian state as much as you want. Before

that, while one half of the Palestinian people are free and the

other under occupation, no-one can offer the Arabs and Palestinians to

offer more compromises. But you can't achieve reconciliation with

Fatah and -- unless you make this basic shift on a programme like

this, that you can imagine living side by side in a lasting peace

with the state of Israel, thereby recognising Israel, and that you

are prepared in that context to end the armed struggle. TRANSLATION:

Who says the recognition of Israel is a prerequisite to Palestinian

reconciliation? I as a Palestinian want to achieve reconciliation,

like any other government worldwide, Britain, France, where many

political parties take part, they must agree on a political agenda.

But they don't have to share one political position. We do not wish

to force our agenda on Fatah or theirs on hours. We used to work on

shared principles. The first in 2005. And then the national record

in 2006 and also 2011, the Cairo agreement, and then the Doha

document as a base for reconciliation. This is our

experience so nobody can dictate to us hash we -- how we should

reconcile with each other. It is interesting that you point to the

previous efforts to achieve a reconciliation within the

Palestinian community. Frankly, you have been trying for many years and

you have failed for many years. I came to this interview thinking I

might hear something new from you, because there are some new elements

in the situation. We have Obama in a second term, who, according to

the new Secretary of State John Kerry, wants to put the priority on

making Middle East peace. We have a new Israeli government. And yet you

suggest that your position has not changed at all. Isn't it time for

some new thinking? TRANSLATION: At the time when Yasser Arafat agreed

to the recognition of Israel, based on the UN resolutions two for two

and to create, it was a new stance. But Israeli policy has not changed.

-- 242 and 200 they D8. The new thing that must take place for the

still water to move is a change in the as really stands to American

and international pressure in order to be fair to the Palestinian

people. On the other hand, who wants to achieve a breakthrough in

this sentiment up in the absence of Hamas? They have tried and failed.

Those who tried failed. If the Obama administration is willing and

we are ready to assist it, the starting point is to put pressure

on the Israelis to change their stance and not by pressuring the

Arabs and the Palestinians. Because they have shown all of the possible

flexibility and pragmatism their ease. But many Arabs do not think

you are being realistic. One respected commentator from the

American Task Force on Palestine says that your position that you

expressed in Gaza in December is totally unworkable from the point

of view of the Palestinian national interest. Nobody in their right

mind imagines that there can ever be a Palestinian military victory

over Israel. Those words play into the hands of the Israeli sentiments.

That is what many Palestinians think. TRANSLATION: If you had been

with me during our visit to Gaza, you would have known what each and

every person wants. They want their full rights in Palestine. But our

people are civilised. We are conscious of the balance of power

and are aware of the current Arab situation. But... But... Please,

allow me. Were you not watching the television when hundreds of

thousands of people in Gaza expressed their food -- their

support for fatter and how would about? The man committed to making

peace in Israel? TRANSLATION: This pleases me. It has a Palestinian

movement launched in 1965. They declared an armed struggle for the

Liberation of Palestine. But the week Arab position forced the

Palestinians to deal with whatever this Arab situation allowed.

Considering also the international alignment in favour of Israel. In

the context of the Arab Spring, some Arab regimes have changed.

Egypt has changed. Leaders today have responsibility towards

Palestine, which is different from the past. If the international

community and American administration and Israelis are not

aware of this, they will waste One of your supporters was Bashar

al-Assad. But you are no longer in Damascus. You are now I fierce

critic of his repressive policies towards the Syrian uprising. That

creates a problem for you. The Iranians, you key sponsors, are

angry that you Brookwood Bashar al- Assad. -- broke with. What you

think of the Iranian decision to support and give military advisers,

weaponry, money, to a regime that you say is killing its own people?

TRANSLATION: You can address this question to the Iranian leadership.

I am asking you what you think. You have a light on a Iranian support

for a long time. Can you picture ties to them? TRANSLATION: We

disagree with them on what is going on in Syria. But we do not wish to

sever relations with Iran or any other country. Despite the fact we

have different opinions. The issues are clear. By saying that, I mean

that the people are aware of what is right and wrong. I believe the

majority of people believe that the military solution is wrong. We

refuse this option. It is a crime. We side with the Syrian people.

People across the globe have the right to seek freedom, liberty,

reforms and democracy. It is not the right of any leader or regime

or regional power to support a military option that kills people.

But do you accept that you need new allies and your position in some

ways his maturer than it was a year ago? How do you cope with the fact

that Iran is looking, again, and wondering whether you are a loyal

friend. TRANSLATION: There is no the way the Syrian regime has

handled the crisis. This daughter that is taking place in Syria, we

had to leave Damascus despite the fact the regime has supporters. We

disagree with Iran as well regarding what is going on in Syria.

This has affected our relations. But the relations are still valid.

We want to maintain relations with the whole of the Arab and Muslim

world. There have been changes because of the events of the Arab

Spring. If we have lost some support, on the other hand we have

regained additional assets and allies. Cairo is not the Cairo of

the past. We can see a massive difference between the Cairo of

2008, when Lebanon declared war. And the Cairo of today, when the

recent aggression came to an end under an agreement sponsored by

President Morsi. With respect, if I may interrupt, the Egyptians are

not going to supply you with rockets as the Iranians have. You

have said that your relationship with Tehran has been damaged, where

are you going to get these rockets you want to go? TRANSLATION: Hamas

is a community that has a lot of expertise. We do not rely on a

single source. We have the capacity to manufacture and obtain arms from

other sources. And we have proven to the entire world that we can

stand up to Israel's superior Arsenal. I am not too worried. We

welcome any support. We are defending a just cause. People have

been biased towards Israeli aggression for so long. Answer the

simple question. I the Iranians still supplying you with weapons?

TRANSLATION: This is not a matter for us to speak about. You speak as

though your strength is increasing. But look at the reality on the

ground in das of. We still see the vast majority of people there are

reliant on food aid. The economy is still in a terrible mess. You have

had six years running the Gaza Strip. You have been able to give

almost nothing in material terms to confrontation policy does not work.

TRANSLATION: What about the scene in the West Bank? They believe in

negotiations. They do not believe an armed resistance. They suffer

from financial crisis, strikes and other problems. The problems in the

West Bank are not caused by the policies. These problems are caused

by the occupation. Our people are so low Vyas, highly educated. --

civilised. The occupation is depriving them of creativity and

productivity. Opinion polls in the West Bank show what Palestinian

people want first and foremost, right now, his reconciliation and

unity in the Palestinian factions. With that in mind, and you will

have more negotiations with Mahmoud Abbas, are you prepared to tell me

that in an interim phase toward national unity and new elections,

you are prepared to recognise Mahmoud Abbas as the interim

president and prime minister of the Palestinian Authority that prepares

the ground for new elections? TRANSLATION: Yes. First of all, we

are moving ahead in peace negotiation methods. Yesterday I

telephoned mum would a bus. On Friday we have a meeting in Cairo.

-- Mahmoud Abbas. There are preparations for parliamentary

elections. Also elections of the Executive Council. The PLO has been

revived. They are holding meetings. We are addressing the security

issues. There is a social reconciliation meeting. We are

moving ahead. Once we agree on days for elections and providing a

guarantee for all the factions and individuals to participate freely

and easily, with no restrictions whatsoever and the necessary

funding. I assure you that Hamas will respect this election. No

matter what happens. We believe in democracy. But we want to be

respected. We do not want to be the victims of the world rejecting the

democratic election results as they did in 2006. Why should I have any

body else takers would seriously when Human Rights Watch reports

that last year more than 100 activists were tortured or abused

in a master tension inside the Gaza Strip? -- Hamas detention. The

reality on the ground is that it is no sign of reconciliation

whatsoever. TRANSLATION: There is no doubt that there were mistakes

here and there. The greatest mistake took place in the West Bank

as a result of the practices of the security services towards hundreds

of detainees. These conditions that emerged under the Palestinian

Division harmed the interests of the people. It damaged its national

unity. We wish to close this chapter and head straight to the

reconciliation. This will be water under the bridge. Our real enemy is

Israel. The division created a negative atmosphere and feelings. I

am adamant on negotiation. But through the programme here, I would

like to address the Obama administration and ask them not to

veto a reconciliation. It is our right as Palestinians. If that is

not possible, we want them not to interfere. This is a Palestinian

affair. Like all other nations, we have a right to decide. Let me ask

you this about your vision of the future. You said that you did not

want to stand again, to be nominated again, as the chief of

Hamas. There is some debate about the balance of power inside your

organisation between those in Gaza and those outside. Is it time for

you to step aside and give up the leadership fully to the people

inside cars are? -- das of. TRANSLATION: Analysis of internal

affairs of Hamas has always led to exaggeration and error. There is no

such thing as an internal struggle. They are competing interests, which

is normal. You said that she wanted to quit. TRANSLATION: Years and I

declared a year ago. People have put pressure on me to back down.

There is pressure from inside Hamas. But I have not changed my mind

about the stance. Hamas is a movement made up of institutions.

These institutions will decide on this matter. As for me, I am still

convinced of what I announced a year ago. It is a personal belief.

Hamas is not a movement built around cars of. -- jars of. I was

born a Palestinian. I saw the occupation and have lived through

the 1967 war. From the beginning of my life, I have worked on the

aspirations of my people. I'll die struggling for the sake of those