Hossein Mousavian Iranian Nuclear Negotiator (2003-2005) HARDtalk

Can then be a negotiated way out. Iran's enrichment programme gets

ever more sophisticated, international sanctions on Tehran

bite deeper and the warnings from the West grow darker. Stephen

Sackur's guest on HARDtalk is a former Iranian negotiator on the

nuclear issue, Hossein Mousavian. Hossein Mousavian, welcome. We have

seen pretty much a decade of stalemate between Iran and the

international powers on this question of the Iranian nuclear

programme. The new meat is scheduled in Kazakhstan. The see

any reason for optimism? Yes. other reasons? First of all, it's

important to recognise that we have a great opportunity to bring

diplomacy to the success. That's is when you were an active negotiator

up on the part of the Iranian Government. At that time, we co-

operated with the EU and the authorities, the authorities for

the Atomic Energy Authority's, on implementation of that protocol

which they were asking as the main item. The X B clear about this. The

Additional Protocol essentially an powers the nuclear watchdog

inspectors from the swooping into the country to swoop on suspect

sites to give them a range of powers which otherwise they would

not have. Exact way. We don't have any other international protocol be

on additional protocol for intrusive inspections. They speak

clear. Having accepted the additional protocol for what was 22

months, Iran then chose to walk away. I'll tell you the reason.

Even the implementation of those arrangements which gives more

possibilities for transparency between Iran and the authorities.

Even those suspended and Richman says a confidence-building measure

for about 1.5 years. They were not in a position to make a deal. That

was because they were supposed to respond on goodwill with

recognition of their Iranian rights for enrichment with the non-

proliferation treaty. The reason was the US, at that time, the US

position was zero in Richmond for Iran, no centrifuge. No enrichment.

Germany and France were faking. cannot go through every particular

detail of the ten years. It gets to the nub of this issue. What we see

in the west is a fundamental lack of trust in Iran with their good

intentions. The reason is because for decades, we have seen Iran

being deceitful operating with centrifuges and having I have

significant nuclear programme behind the backs of the

international community and the trust is not there. I agree with

you. The west does not trust Iran. But it's important for the west to

understand the mistrust is mutual. Iran also has its own reasons not

first question. Now we are at 1230. Canon has been any negotiations. --

we were supposed to meet in February. Is there a possibility

for a solution? I would strongly say yes. Because the fight demands

of the authorities. We doubt using this jargon, p 5 is the permanent

five members of the Security Council negotiating on behalf of

the internet community along with Germany. They have five demands.

Firstly, additional protocols to give I A E the possibility for

intrusive inspections. That is fundamentally important. Extreme

important, it's a major demand for the resolution and also the United

Nations Security Council. respect, you're involved in the

team for negotiations for a few years but then he fell out with

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Now you're in the US. Now we see a regime and

these negotiations and they are frankly much more hardline than you

were and they are not interested in offering any concessions such as

signing up to additional protocols or not interested in talking about

suspending the enrichment of uranium. In that context, it's hard

for me to see why you can be optimistic. What you said, this is

the understanding of 99% of the people in the west. I will give you

my reasons. Not right. Let's go to these

demands. The second demand of the P five plus Germany is the

implementation of the arrangements -3.1 for more transparency in Orion.

The third demand is Iranian Corporation corporations with

military dimensions. This is called PMB. I am trying to make this

understandable forever one watching up. The fear is that such is the

scale of the Iranian enrichment programme out in Iran, the ability

to deliver 20% enrichment of uranium, very refined, the only

objective can be for weapons. Granted, the west is yet to find

any compelling irrefutable evidence of weapons programme but they

believe all the circumstances suggest that ultimately that's the

ambition for the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad mac regime. The 20%

enrichment is for giving the possibility for break-up. National

Security Studies analysis days ago said that Iran has all have the

necessary ingredients to make a bomb. But it appears to be holding

off to stave off military action. Would you agree with that? No. We

will discuss that but let's finish the first question. The 4th demand,

let me explain also, for Iran to co-operate with the authorities,

with the possibility of the dimensional issues, Iran should

give access to the authorities be on the additional protocol.

not? You are making it sound as though perhaps some of the demands

are going to far. I'll tell you exactly why not. You should know

that to access that they should give access to the authorities be

warned additional protocols. 70 countries today have not accepted

these additional protocols. respect, it's not about the other

70. It's about Iran. When you pointed out recently that Iran now

has 10,000 centrifuge machines and 6,000 kilograms of uranium and 150

kilograms which is 20% enriched. Now they boast about doubling or

tripling the capacity in the main plant. The west has very good

reason to worry. Does it not? the west is really worried,

therefore they should calm and should be serious for this. The 4th

demand from the west is that Iran stops 20% of enrichment and has a

cat at 5:00%. They will ensure that if this was done, 20 % will be

supplied to enable it to produce fuel rods to produce energy.

fifth and final demand is for Durant to accept a limited

stockpile of enriched uranium. Iranians also have two other

demands. For the P five plus one to recognise the rights of around four

enrichment like other members of that group. Also to lift sanctions

gradually. The reason the negotiations have failed up to now,

and Niamh 100% Shaw, they will fail at the next round of Nicosia

Nations in February, because the P five plus one has not been ready to

put all of its five major demands plus the Iranian demands. We think

a package to be implemented step- by-step with a proportion of

reciprocation. This is the deal. Were it respect, this is not at the

moment an issue which can be rendered too complicated. It seems

quite simple. Because of the scale of the Iranian nuclear programme

right now, of all the worries that I have expressed and quoted from

the Australians and the US people, we know that the clock is ticking.

Unless Iran makes real concessions now on enrichment question, the

west may be led by Israel and it will have to take action. This is

very urgent. I believe that if the west is ready for considering the

Iranian demands, Iran will be serious and ready to consider and

to co-operate with the west on but barons. Almost five demands.

like a direct answer from you. You're no longer involved in these

negotiations but she watched very closely. You believe that Mahmoud

Ahmadinejad have made their decision to press ahead with

construction programmes underneath the mountains which has frightened

Israel and the west and they see this as a facility which can enrich

uranium that will be very hard to reach by military. It's about

Israeli policy. Netanyahu continues to threaten around with a military

strike. The US also, very clearly, either by Bolshaw Obama, they have

mentioned other options. This was built in secret. Now another plant

is being developed. There is no access. This is not the case.

take seriously these proposals. When they threatened Iran to attack

all the nuclear facilities, they left no option for Iran to go to

build a site under the mountains to save its facilities. If they had

not threatened with a military strike, around would not have made

that plant. Secondly, around is not a member of the additional

protocols. Their have withdrawn. Yeah, but they are remember other

another agreement. Legally, to be a member of the NPT, a member of the

safeguard agreement, you need to inform I A E eight just 180 days

before the introduction of the centrifuge. You do not need to

inform them about the construction or assembly of these centrifuge

machines. Only when you want to introduce to them these centrifuge

machines. Let's be simple. These facilities, they are worried about

them and they want to inspect them. We are at risk of missing the big

picture. This is the same propaganda atmosphere as we had in

2004 and 2005. We gave the International Atomic Energy Agency

the opportunity to visit to that place and it was clean. All

allegations relating to that area were false. Today, they want to

visit that place again. Iran has given no objection. The visitation

can only take place within the framework of additional protocol,

of which Iran is not a member. However, we are willing to adhere

to that additional protocol if the West is prepared for proportional...

If Iran does this, what will be the Western action in return as

proportional reciprocation? Let us try to keep things as simple as we

can. What is it in your view, given that you have some optimism about

the next round of talks, what can act as a carrot that would appeal

to the Iranians enough to get them to make concessions on the question

of how they enriched uranium and how much concentrated uranium they

do in rich? I am optimistic. What is the carrot? What is it the West

should be offering in your opinion? I believe that the Western

countries should go to the negotiation table, they should very

clearly, without any ambiguity, tell the Iranians: We would respect

your rights, we would not discriminate against Iran, we would

not victimise Iran. Ultimately, we will lift the sanctions. Ultimately.

This should be done within a gradual process. No-one is going to

believe sanctions will be lifted overnight. It takes time. If Iran

is prepared to accept the maximum level of transparency,

internationally, on its nuclear programme... If this is chicken and

egg, surely that is what must come first given the record of deception

and subterfuge over so many years. It is incumbent on Iran first, is

it not, to show they can be utterly transparent and open? To let the

inspectors in and let them go where they will? Iran has done this. In

February, 2010, the current Foreign Minister who was at that time the

head of the Atomic Energy Organisation of Iran publicly told

the international community that we were now in reaching at 3.5%. We

want fuel rods Forte round. If you give us fuel rods for at Tehran, we

will not increase the level of enrichment beyond 5%. This was the

first offer made by Iran. Unfortunately,... Well, things have

changed. Is it not be true that Iran is in a weak position now

because sanctions have been tightened so much that the Iranian

economy is teetering? If we are talking about powerful positions

all week positions, I can tell you that both parties are in powerful

positions and both positions -- both parties are in a weak

positions. But we are talking about a US President to as convincingly

won an election. In Iran, we have the lame duck President Ahmadinejad,

who seems to be at war with the Supreme Leader. Where is the

strength in Iran? I will tell you now. The Western countries did not

buy uranium... They said that Iran is bluffing. They said Iran did not

have the capacity to enrich the under 5%. In December, 2011,

President Ahmadinejad said that now they are enriching. If you give us

the fuel rods for the Tehran research reactors, we will stop

enriching at 20% and we will go back to fight beside. If you give

us. But based on this calculation, the Europeans and Americans

believed this was a bluff and that Iran could not make fuel rods.

Within three months, Iran made the fuel rods. Therefore, if, from the

beginning the West had except it to provide fuel rods for Tehran's

research reactor, we would not have today's situation. Neither 20% of

all this stockpile. Now, who is... I have to ask, it is interesting

that having left the country and fallen out with President

Ahmadinejad, you seem to be loyally defending the position taken by the

Iranian government. I just what -- wonder whether you think he has

made a terrible mistake in his demonisation of Israel? I believe

his statements on the Holocaust, on wiping his rail off the map. --

Israel. He says he will remove the Zionist black stain from society. A

Supreme Leader has said the sinus regime is a cancerous tumour in the

region that should be cut off and definitely will be cut off --

Zionist. In the context of this language, is it any surprise that

Israel, the international powers led by the US, I'm not prepared to

take Iran on trust? Trust is not only a nuclear issue. Mistrust on

many other issues. Terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, human

rights. I am asking you if with his language, how they made terrible

mistakes in the way they have presented Iran's case. When

President Ahmadinejad made the statement on the Holocaust, I

believe he made a big mistake. about the Supreme Leader who said

that the Zionist regime is a cancer that should be removed? He would

never have made this statement during his leadership. Since 1988,

he has always emphasised just the state and -- statement: We are in

favour of free elections in Israel where all Muslims, Jews and

Christians can participate and whatever they decide about the

destiny, we will support. A let us not go down that track. Let us talk

more about the internal workings of Iran. You live in exile and do you

want to return to Iran. You have some very good friends who may one

day run for President. I wonder if you believe there is any prosperity

-- prospect of moderation, pragmatism, were former coming from

Iran in the next election? -- reform. We have experienced 16

years of moderate policies in Iran. I believe the moderate policies of

Iran failed because of this treatment of the West. In the past,

Iran had moderate policies. The West continued to pressure and

section Iran, to increase its isolation. This is the result.

There are more pressures on Iran -- putting more pressure on Iran would

radicalise the rain in domestic politics more and more. This is the

equation. -- Iranian domestic politics. In that case, the Supreme

Leader may continue to feel that continuing to ratchet up the

tension on the nuclear issue serves his purpose best. So, why believe

anything will change? I do not believe Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is

after the radicalisation of domestic politics. He permitted

President Ahmadinejad to write a letter to President Bush. He

permitted Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to congratulate President Obama has

elected President. He permitted him to write another letter to

President Obama. This was unprecedented during the history of