Fernando Carrera - Minister of Foreign Affairs, Guatemala HARDtalk


Fernando Carrera  - Minister of Foreign Affairs, Guatemala

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hour: Reports from South Korea of a man made magnitude 4.9 earthquake

:00:04.:00:07.

may be the first sign that the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-un,

:00:07.:00:11.

has carried out his promised further nuclear tests. The US and

:00:11.:00:15.

its allies have warned of significant allies if the North

:00:16.:00:19.

went ahead. Pope Benedict has announced he will step down at the

:00:19.:00:22.

end of the month becoming the first head of the Catholic Church to

:00:22.:00:29.

and he says he no longer has the strength of mind and body to fulfil

:00:29.:00:33.

his duties. There's speculation the next Pope maybe from Latin America.

:00:33.:00:37.

The Netherlands is the next country to investigate whether horsemeat is

:00:37.:00:41.

being sold as beef. Dutch authorities have ordered an

:00:41.:00:45.

investigation. The Food Safety Authority uncovered a possible link

:00:45.:00:54.

to the European supply chain for frozen ready meals.

:00:54.:00:58.

In more NHS hospital trusts in England are to be investigated over

:00:58.:01:02.

concerns about higher than expected death rates in the past two years.

:01:02.:01:05.

This is in response to a damning report in failures at Stafford

:01:05.:01:11.

hospital, where hundreds died from poor care. Investigations into five

:01:11.:01:14.

other hospitals were announced last week. Two men have been charged in

:01:14.:01:18.

connection with the death of a police woman whose patrol car was

:01:18.:01:22.

struck by a stolen vehicle in Londonderry. Constable Philippa

:01:22.:01:26.

Reynolds was killed when her unmarked car collided with another

:01:26.:01:29.

on Saturday morning. Shane Frane and Conor Clarence were remanded in

:01:30.:01:39.

custody until next month. Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.

:01:39.:01:44.

The government of Guatemala or has promised to tackle the high murder

:01:44.:01:48.

rate of a country living under the threat of gangs, organised crime

:01:48.:01:52.

and drug traffickers. Some have expressed fears it could become a

:01:52.:01:56.

narco state, with state institutions that are weak or

:01:56.:02:00.

corrupted by criminal activity. When President Ballina took office

:02:00.:02:05.

just over a year ago he said the war on drugs has failed, and it's

:02:05.:02:10.

time to consider decriminalising them. My guest today on HARDtalk is

:02:10.:02:14.

the newly-appointed Foreign Minister of Guatemala, Fernando

:02:14.:02:24.
:02:24.:02:36.

For Fernando Carrera, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much for

:02:36.:02:40.

your invitation. How can a president of a country that has

:02:40.:02:44.

suffered tremendously from drugs now says he wants to see a be

:02:44.:02:50.

regulated drugs market. What we have said so far is not exactly a

:02:50.:02:53.

proposal of how to solve the drugs problem in the world. We have said

:02:53.:03:01.

we should move beyond the war on drugs. And also the prohibition

:03:01.:03:07.

side of it. What we have said is that we should start a global talk

:03:07.:03:11.

on how to change the policy approach to this. The war on drugs

:03:11.:03:17.

has failed, that's very obvious, because the objectives that we have

:03:17.:03:22.

tried to reach over the last 50 years have not been reached. Why do

:03:22.:03:27.

you say that? Statistics, as simple as that. We have very high drug

:03:27.:03:31.

consumption in the world. We have very high levels of the illicit

:03:31.:03:39.

trade. And money laundering and weapons have increased. Few would

:03:39.:03:46.

disagree that the war on drugs has not delivered. But does that mean

:03:46.:03:50.

that the war on drugs is taking the wrong approach? Maybe the policies

:03:50.:03:54.

are right but they have not been implemented probably. That may be

:03:55.:03:59.

the case for 30 years maybe, but not for 50 years. The whole

:03:59.:04:03.

approach of having the idea of the prohibition of drugs, some say Paul

:04:03.:04:09.

Groves, that is the wrong idea. US embassy in Guatemala issued a

:04:09.:04:14.

statement i statement iy last year when the debate started. They said,

:04:14.:04:18.

the case of Colombia shows that strong multilateral commitment to

:04:18.:04:22.

combat narco trafficking and transnational criminal activity can

:04:22.:04:29.

succeed. Violent deaths in Colombia fell by half between 2002 and 2011.

:04:29.:04:32.

With similar political will, other governments can have the same

:04:32.:04:37.

success. Colombia has taken the right steps, and it's bringing

:04:37.:04:43.

results. But not bringing results in reducing drug trafficking.

:04:43.:04:47.

it has brought down violent deaths. The war on drugs is not to reduce,

:04:47.:04:55.

sides, it is to reduce drug consumption. -- homicides. But so

:04:55.:05:00.

much criminal activity is a related to drug abuse. There is a link

:05:01.:05:04.

between drugs and criminal activity and the detrimental effect it has

:05:04.:05:09.

on the country. Colombia is being held up as an example of how to

:05:09.:05:16.

tackle its. That's what I am saying. What is the end? -- tackle it. If

:05:16.:05:20.

it is the reduction of murders we are doing exactly what we want to

:05:20.:05:27.

do in the last three years, we have gone from 40 in 1000 to less than

:05:27.:05:33.

28 this year. We will continue to reduce homicides as the same trend

:05:33.:05:38.

as Colombia has followed -- in the. But what are we trying to do with

:05:38.:05:43.

the war on drugs? Reduce, sides? No. We want to reduce drug consumption

:05:43.:05:48.

all over the world and that's not happening. I will pursue this a bit

:05:48.:05:51.

more because your view here, and the view of the government, is out

:05:51.:05:56.

of step with the region. The new president of Mexico, Enrique

:05:57.:06:00.

Pennetta, said last year, "It is clear that after several years of

:06:00.:06:04.

the fight against drug trafficking we do have more drug consumption

:06:04.:06:09.

and trafficking. But is the state's task to go back to the rule of law

:06:09.:06:19.
:06:19.:06:20.

and enforce rules strictly in our One week ago he was... What

:06:20.:06:25.

happened clearly in Santiago, when he was there, five countries in

:06:25.:06:28.

Latin America said they had to discuss drug policy. It is not

:06:29.:06:34.

because it is working, it is because it is failing. It is. But

:06:34.:06:39.

everybody agrees it is failing. Your president at Davos took the

:06:39.:06:45.

stage with the financier, and they both said, things are not working

:06:45.:06:49.

will stop but they don't know how to tackle the problem. They say yes

:06:50.:06:53.

it is not working but they don't know what to-do. A lot of people

:06:53.:06:57.

say, the Americans in particular, that you have got to enforce your

:06:57.:07:01.

laws more strictly. It is a failure of enforcement, not the actual

:07:02.:07:07.

policy. Actually it is not a question of enforcement that we

:07:07.:07:11.

need to follow. The legal system has to be strengthened. That is

:07:11.:07:17.

something we need to work too. I don't think the question of the war

:07:17.:07:21.

on drugs or not the war on drugs should lead us to a different

:07:21.:07:25.

approach. We need to strengthen the legal system. That is part of the

:07:25.:07:29.

general problem. We will talk about that in a moment. We're talking

:07:29.:07:33.

about decriminalising the use of drugs. That's essentially what

:07:34.:07:39.

you're President is saying he wants. We won the deregulation of the

:07:39.:07:43.

drugs markets, that's the whole thing. -- we want. There are two

:07:43.:07:47.

approaches here. The current approach says everything should be

:07:47.:07:55.

prohibited. We should continue prohibiting all drugs. The only way

:07:55.:08:01.

we can tackle the problem is through the legal system, that is

:08:01.:08:07.

the current approach. Let's put it this way, it is a problem of

:08:07.:08:12.

criminal justice. What we're saying, as many others are, it is not a

:08:12.:08:16.

problem of criminal justice. It is a health problem. You need to

:08:16.:08:19.

tackle it with health policies rather than criminal justice

:08:19.:08:23.

activities. What's more important than anything is we're not saying

:08:23.:08:26.

we need to free the market and allow everything to be distributed

:08:26.:08:31.

and consumed, we say we need to regulate the market. There are

:08:31.:08:36.

things we can do to regulate the market which will help us to reduce

:08:36.:08:40.

drug consumption, and reduce violence, and also reduced the size

:08:40.:08:46.

of the illegal markets -- reduce. Few people would disagree with the

:08:46.:08:49.

fact that you can carry out preventativ preventativp

:08:49.:08:55.

drug use and approach it as a health problem. The United States

:08:56.:08:59.

in 2010 put in something like $10 billion into its programme to try

:08:59.:09:03.

to stop people using drugs. It has done this kind of thing over the

:09:03.:09:06.

years and over the last three decades, the use of drugs has gone

:09:06.:09:11.

down by over a third. That's not particularly controversial but what

:09:11.:09:15.

is, and difficult for people to accept, is you say decriminalise

:09:15.:09:20.

the use of drugs. In Portugal, which has done this in 2000, and

:09:20.:09:25.

they say if people are carrying a few grams of cannabis for their own

:09:25.:09:29.

use, we're not going to penalise them. They will say, that's okay.

:09:29.:09:34.

But you know what has happened in Portugal? The use has gone up.

:09:34.:09:38.

went up for the first three years and then it went down and then it

:09:38.:09:45.

went up. It was a whole trend. me just say... When we allow

:09:45.:09:49.

alcohol to be consumed in the US, in the first few years there was

:09:49.:09:57.

and how our -- an increase. scientist at Stanford University in

:09:57.:10:02.

the US has gone on and done a study in Portugal. He says when you

:10:02.:10:06.

decriminalise the use goes up potentially dramatically. You see a

:10:06.:10:11.

doubling of cocaine and heroin use. It's inevitable more people will

:10:11.:10:20.

get hurt. That's a very clear example. The whole problem is that

:10:20.:10:27.

the war on drugs makes us treat the drugs in the same way. It is not

:10:27.:10:32.

all drugs in Portugal decriminalised. The possession of

:10:32.:10:37.

cocaine is still illegal. We're talking about cannabis, which is

:10:37.:10:42.

very specific. The use is what I described, it went down and up and

:10:42.:10:48.

now it is going up again. That is what happened in the US when they

:10:48.:10:54.

legalised in the Thirties and Forties. What we have to study is

:10:54.:10:58.

the type of consumption that we are dealing with. With cocaine, maybe

:10:58.:11:02.

it's a different story. We need to look at the effects on human health

:11:02.:11:07.

and also the effects on the human condition in general. If it

:11:07.:11:11.

produces more criminal activity or less criminal activity. For example

:11:11.:11:16.

for cannabis users, there's very little criminal activity related.

:11:16.:11:21.

But for cocaine users, there's a higher level of that. Not just

:11:21.:11:25.

cocaine but also some derivations from cocaine that could be damaging

:11:25.:11:31.

for people's health. The President has said categorically since he

:11:31.:11:35.

became President 14 months ago that he wants to see a de Regulation,

:11:35.:11:39.

whatever you want to call it, not exactly legalisation and so on. But

:11:39.:11:43.

it sounds like he's making these statements without very clear

:11:43.:11:47.

evidence or a very clear study of what's going on. It sounds like he

:11:47.:11:51.

has made up his mind. He's not initiating a debate but he is

:11:51.:11:54.

saying this is what he thinks should happen because the war on

:11:54.:11:59.

Drax has failed. What do you think of this? -- drugs. There are

:11:59.:12:03.

studies that are saying what we have done so far is not working and

:12:03.:12:07.

that we should look at other options. But he is saying de

:12:07.:12:11.

regulation? The word we are using is the de regulation of trucks

:12:11.:12:18.

markets. -- drugs markets. That is what has been said, that is what

:12:18.:12:24.

was said in Santiago and also Kata Hayne year last year. Are also at

:12:24.:12:32.

the General Assembly. Is that not a bit ambiguous? It is not the

:12:32.:12:40.

regulation or prohibition, it is something in between. Either

:12:40.:12:45.

prohibitionists or the free trade approach people should win. We want

:12:45.:12:51.

regulation, it is a Third Way, combining both things. Some things

:12:51.:12:54.

will be allowed and some things will be decriminalised. What will

:12:54.:12:59.

be allowed? I will give you an example, cannabis. It should almost

:13:00.:13:04.

completely be deregulated. People say it is a gateway to heavier

:13:04.:13:11.

drugs. That is another discussion. The evidence is out there. That's

:13:11.:13:18.

what we have. The gateway for heavier drugs in most countries is

:13:18.:13:22.

not cannabis, it is alcohol actually. Are we going to prohibit

:13:22.:13:27.

alcohol? Are you saying Guatemala wants to see cannabis bought and

:13:27.:13:33.

sold freely and regulated? There's a regulation for that. As we have a

:13:33.:13:38.

regulation for tobacco or alcohol. You have regulated marijuana Fields,

:13:38.:13:44.

is that basically it? The production. The legal production of

:13:44.:13:47.

marijuana and regulated distribution and trade is the same

:13:47.:13:52.

as with alcohol. We don't prohibit sugar-cane, okay? But we produce

:13:52.:13:58.

our Carl and run out of it and we don't prohibit potatoes. -- alcohol.

:13:58.:14:04.

You put cannabis on the same level as our car? Yes, the damage is the

:14:04.:14:08.

same. -- as alcohol. But some studies say that it has more of an

:14:09.:14:14.

impact? I have read enough about these studies! But the professor I

:14:14.:14:20.

spoke about said this. If the US embassy in Guatemala, contributing

:14:20.:14:25.

to the debate you started in your country, said suppose what if the

:14:25.:14:29.

trafficking and use of illegal drugs were decriminalised tomorrow

:14:29.:14:32.

in Central America. They say transnational criminal

:14:32.:14:35.

organisations and gangs would continue to engage in illicit

:14:35.:14:41.

activity, including people trafficking, arms, extortion,

:14:41.:14:44.

kidnapping, theft of international property and money laundering.

:14:44.:14:49.

Crime could increase as drugs cartels shift their forms to other

:14:49.:14:55.

forms of illicit activities -- focus. That is what we are doing.

:14:55.:15:01.

Criminal activities have increased. Illicit drug traffickers are not

:15:01.:15:07.

going to become saints overnight? Your position and what is being

:15:08.:15:12.

said about the US embassy is what is happening now. The result is

:15:12.:15:15.

already there. I don't know why changing the approach would work.

:15:15.:15:20.

They say it would increase crime. What is the point in opening this

:15:20.:15:24.

debate when you know the US is opposed to this kind of move? Joe

:15:25.:15:28.

Biden, the vice-president said in March last year, "A debate is

:15:28.:15:32.

legitimate but you realise there's more problems with legalisation and

:15:32.:15:37.

with none legalisation". I know that's not what you're saying but

:15:37.:15:47.
:15:47.:15:59.

President Obama after these moves from Joe Biden was saying that we

:15:59.:16:05.

need to be cautious of this. He went to five countries and heard

:16:05.:16:10.

him say that you have to discuss these policies. Listening to that,

:16:10.:16:16.

President Obama said that we should agree on the studies. What are the

:16:16.:16:21.

options we have? We're going to have a general assembly of the

:16:21.:16:28.

organisation in Guatemala. We are recommendations. The debate has

:16:28.:16:33.

already started. Do you think, for one President said that the US

:16:33.:16:38.

might change his mind. As Obama enters his second term, he could

:16:38.:16:42.

change his mind. There will be a process towards regulation. Is that

:16:42.:16:52.
:16:52.:16:53.

what to think? We should discuss options. But the West specifically?

:16:53.:17:03.
:17:03.:17:04.

Colorado, Washington State just legalised not just medical

:17:04.:17:12.

consumption. A but also personal use? And enjoyment. They have

:17:12.:17:17.

legalised that in the West. Some states. Two states. That is already

:17:17.:17:22.

a major step. But when President Obama still said in April last year,

:17:22.:17:26.

if we have a large-scale dominating drug trade in countries and they

:17:26.:17:30.

are allowed to operate legally, it could be just as corrupting if not

:17:30.:17:36.

more corrupting than the status quo. America does not seem to be moving

:17:36.:17:39.

towards regulation. There are signs we are receiving from the White

:17:39.:17:46.

House. There has been an evolution. They were thinking that we were

:17:46.:17:53.

trying to say, let us legalise everything. We have never said that.

:17:53.:17:58.

We are not saying that. They have opened their ears to another

:17:58.:18:03.

approach. That is trying to find a common balance. Would they want to

:18:03.:18:08.

describe and what President Obama said very clearly is that we have

:18:08.:18:13.

strict evidence that some of the options are not possible. We're

:18:13.:18:18.

open to listen to that. The reason that Guatemala is very keen to take

:18:18.:18:23.

the lead in this debate is sadly because your country has really

:18:23.:18:27.

suffered from the drug trade. A not just our country, but the whole of

:18:27.:18:36.

Latin America. But as Mexico and Colombia have tightened up their

:18:36.:18:43.

act and as we see gangs moving from Mexico to Guatemala, Guatemala has

:18:43.:18:48.

become a major transit point. Particularly for cocaine smuggling.

:18:48.:18:52.

Something like 400 tons of cocaine transported from Guatemala every

:18:52.:19:00.

year. I am saying it does not come to Guatemala from nowhere. It comes

:19:00.:19:04.

from Colomb from Colomb all the way around Central America up

:19:05.:19:11.

to Mexico into the United States. When it crosses the Rio Grande

:19:11.:19:16.

border, it is not illicit drugs. It is just drugs. That is a funny

:19:16.:19:20.

thing. We have illicit trade coming all the way from Peru to Mexico.

:19:20.:19:27.

Once he gets into the US, there are no gangs are organised crime. It is

:19:27.:19:32.

something that we question. We have an entire trade problem that stops

:19:32.:19:36.

and the West. It starts in modern countries and it moves into the

:19:36.:19:43.

south. We're caught in the middle. You are caught in the middle, but

:19:43.:19:53.

Guatemala is a paradise for criminal activity. We have captured

:19:53.:20:02.

people. I'll give the evidence. President says that drug

:20:02.:20:05.

traffickers have been able to penetrate institutions in this

:20:05.:20:09.

country by employing the resources and money. We're talking about

:20:09.:20:13.

security forces, prosecutors and judges. This is your own President

:20:13.:20:20.

saying there has been this infiltration. We are moving. This

:20:20.:20:24.

is the photograph of where we are today. In the past three years we

:20:24.:20:29.

have been able to achieve certain things. We have been able to reform

:20:29.:20:33.

the police so that we have was corruption in the system. We have

:20:33.:20:37.

tried to strengthen the Attorney- General's Office so that

:20:37.:20:44.

prosecution becomes protected from corruption. The third person that

:20:44.:20:49.

is working on this is the Ministry of government -- Minister of

:20:49.:20:55.

Interior Security. He is using all of his power. We are getting

:20:55.:20:59.

control of certain things. Four of the major drug cartel leaders have

:20:59.:21:06.

been put in prison. We are really strengthening the system. The scale

:21:06.:21:11.

of the problem is enormous. 40% of your territory is in the hands of

:21:11.:21:19.

the criminal gangs. We have what we call corridors. They do not control

:21:19.:21:24.

large territories. They control certain corridors. That is where

:21:24.:21:31.

they have drugs or illegal roads. That is what they used to traffic.

:21:31.:21:35.

We are a transit place. We do not produce or consume drugs. We are a

:21:35.:21:44.

transit place. It looks like there is chaos. There is no chaos. I am

:21:44.:21:49.

not saying there is chaos. But for example if you look at the words of

:21:49.:21:54.

someone from the book institute from the vice-president of Costa

:21:54.:21:58.

Rica, you would know that he wrote that Guatemala is in between a rock

:21:58.:22:03.

and a hard place. He only wrote this in September 2011. He said he

:22:03.:22:07.

was time to shed the pretext that Guatemala's institutions will be

:22:07.:22:14.

able to prevent the country from becoming a narcotics state. That is

:22:14.:22:18.

a discussion I have had. The question is how we protect the

:22:18.:22:24.

legal system and the democratic system from corruption and illicit

:22:24.:22:30.

drugs. That comes from political campaigns on the one hand. Not only

:22:30.:22:34.

at the national level, but at the local level. Countries where there

:22:34.:22:43.

is trafficking or potential trafficking. Local authorities.

:22:43.:22:48.

Also the question about what you are describing. And that culture of

:22:48.:22:58.
:22:58.:22:58.

impunity. 90% of crimes are not punished in Guatemala. It is from a

:22:58.:23:03.

low base. I have been to Guatemala. You can go into cafe and you will

:23:03.:23:08.

see an armed guard. Private security guards outnumber the state

:23:08.:23:12.

police by seven to one. You have got bus drivers in their hundreds

:23:12.:23:17.

been killed because they have to pay extortionists. You have got a

:23:18.:23:23.

huge problem on your hands there. We are trying to diminish the size

:23:23.:23:30.

of the challenge. Where are you moving to? In the past three years

:23:30.:23:35.

we have been applying things. presidency is that she wants 10,000

:23:35.:23:41.

more police and 2,500 more military troops. Have you got those already?

:23:41.:23:47.

The work started this year. We thought we had a number of police

:23:47.:23:54.

that was close to 25,000. It was less. Once we started to clean up

:23:54.:23:59.

the police, the number of police went down. That is where we started

:23:59.:24:07.

to get trips. We know the solution is not to give the military. The

:24:07.:24:12.

solution in the long-term is to strengthen the police. We are

:24:12.:24:17.

increasing the number. We have already founded a police academy

:24:17.:24:24.

that did not exist. They have basic training for police. Now we are

:24:24.:24:29.

trying to develop the police academy for the higher ranks. The

:24:29.:24:32.

way are you going to get the money to do all of this? Guatemala has

:24:32.:24:38.

not been a proper functioning state. Only 11% of your GDP comes from

:24:38.:24:43.

taxation. You have a population of about 15 million, 53% living in

:24:43.:24:48.

poverty. Large parts of the country have no investment. The state is

:24:48.:24:51.

not functioning polling. Is a country turning a po

:24:51.:24:55.

you're going to start collecting money and have proper investment?

:24:55.:25:02.

By all means, that is what we did last year. The tax reform will

:25:02.:25:08.

increase. It will increase the capacity 1.5% of GDP. That will

:25:08.:25:14.

allow us to expand security functions. Are you turning a point?

:25:14.:25:20.

This is what we are moving towards. A few weeks ago there was an

:25:20.:25:25.

article that expressed that we are moving towards a different approach.

:25:25.:25:35.
:25:35.:25:48.

A different scenario. Thank you for Later this week it will be getting

:25:48.:25:53.

brighter. Later this week it will be milder. We are not there yet.

:25:53.:25:57.

Between now and then, some of us will deal with more snow. Not so

:25:57.:26:01.

much in the day ahead. It is pretty quiet. Plenty of dry winter,

:26:01.:26:04.

despite the cloud. From the cloud across southern areas, parts of

:26:04.:26:09.

Wales and Northern Ireland, still a few light sleet and snow flurries.

:26:09.:26:12.

There are some wintry showers to the north-east of the United

:26:12.:26:19.

Kingdom. The Midlands is likely to be cold and grey to start the day.

:26:19.:26:22.

Across north-east England and eastern Scotland, right across the

:26:22.:26:25.

coast, some sleet and showers. Probably coldest across the

:26:25.:26:32.

Highlands. The best of the brightness in western Scotland. A

:26:32.:26:40.

good deal of cloud. Across parts of Wales into parts of south-west

:26:40.:26:43.

England and southern England generally, where the cloud is

:26:43.:26:50.

thickest you may encounter some of those sleet and snow flurries. It

:26:50.:26:54.

is a cold feel. The cold enhanced is a cold feel. The cold enhanced

:26:54.:26:58.

by that cloud cover. Particularly where you have got some lying snow

:26:58.:27:05.

from the start of the week. That is how it is to begin the day. As we

:27:05.:27:09.

go on through the day, there is no dramatic change. The best of the

:27:09.:27:12.

sunshine will come through in western Scotland. Most will keep a

:27:12.:27:15.

good deal of cloud. Some of these wintery showers towards the north-

:27:15.:27:22.

east. With all that could across us, it does not do anything for the

:27:22.:27:26.

temperature. Tuesday evening, there may be some more generous breaks in

:27:26.:27:34.

the cloud. We will get some cold weather. Temperatures in towns and

:27:34.:27:42.

cities close to freezing. Plenty of cold air in place as Wednesday

:27:42.:27:46.

begins. Another weather system comes in from the Atlantic. Running

:27:46.:27:52.

into the cold air, we could see some snow. Snow building up as far

:27:52.:28:01.

south as the Midlands later in the day. The most significant snow will

:28:01.:28:05.

be in Scotland. Significant snow drifting on the strong winds in

:28:06.:28:08.

Scotland. Eventually that wet weather will get in. It does

:28:08.:28:12.

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