Lucinda Creighton - Ireland's Minister of State for European Affairs HARDtalk


Lucinda Creighton - Ireland's Minister of State for European Affairs

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stop the North's nuclear programme. HARDtalk has come to Dublin, the

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capital of Ireland, which currently holds the presidency of the

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European Union. It's a symbolic leadership role which coincides

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with the Irish government's attempts to escape from the

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economic straitjacket imposed by the EU and the IMF. -- when they

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agreed to bail-out the Irish economy. My guest today is

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Ireland's Europe minister Lucinda Creighton. Is this country ready to

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convince the world that it is Lucinda Creighton, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Starting with the enormous debt mountain that has

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almost crushed the Irish state. In the last few days, your government

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trumpeted a deal which in essence saw it remortgage a large chunk of

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that debt. It seems a symbol of how deep the crisis is in this country,

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that that is the greatest triumph of the government. I suppose we are

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not even midway through the government's term in office. I hope

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that by the end of the turn, we will have achieved more than just

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simply reducing the debt burden. But it is important. We have a

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medium-term strategy. One part of that was stabilising the public

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finances. That has been achieved to some extent. The next step is

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getting back to the market and being able to borrow money at a

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reasonable rate, the sustainable rate, so we can fund public

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services and so on and run the government. That deadline is fast

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approaching. Ensuring that we have management -- we are managing the

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debt burden is an important part of that task. Although this concerns

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the 30 billion euros or so that was a crude as a result of the collapse

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of the Irish Bank nationwide, that money still has to be paid back

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over the next 40 years and it also does not mean you have solved the

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problem of your other banking debt, the tens of billions of more euros.

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There is no doubt that Ireland has taken a disproportionate hit in

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terms of the banking crisis in Europe. We were the first country

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standing against what was pretty much a tsunami in the banking world,

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which was about to hit the European Union in particular and the

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eurozone. Ireland was the first country in the line of fire. We

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definitely took a disproportionate hit. It is interesting that even

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when you and other members of the government said it was a great

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result for Ireland over the last few days, thousands of people took

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to the streets in Dublin and elsewhere in the country led by the

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trades union movement saying that actually nothing fundamental has

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changed. The Irish people are still paying vast amount of money and

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suffering prolonged austerity because of the mistakes made and

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the incompetence of the leaders of the banking system in this country

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and politicians and Europeans who refuse to be fair to the Irish

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public. I think very few people would say nothing has changed. It

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is significant. Over the next ten years, the Irish taxpayers would

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each year every year in order to pay back the promissory note. That

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has now changed. We do not pay any of the principal sum for 25 years.

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The repayment period has extended from an average of 7-8 years, close

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to 30 years. The interest rate would be at a lower rate. It's a

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good deal and an important deal. It is not the only solution to our

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challenges. When I talk about the people who say not much has changed,

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they are ordinary workers, indeed many jobless people, who see the

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reality of their lives and say, what will actually change for me?

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Just looking at the fact that your next Budget will still be an

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austerity budget, there will be new taxes on property and water, as far

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as I understand you are still committed to cutting 4 billion war

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from the state budget by 2015. So the cuts will continue. -- more.

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The trade unions sake New Deal, same problem, 1.8 million people

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can't possibly pay off a bank debt amounting to 64 billion euros. --

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say a new deal. We are still in the process of working out the budget

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impact of this deal. That is a working process. But austerity

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continues? Of course. But let's be clear about this. The consolidation

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programme would have to continue in any event. The deficit is very

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large. Even at the end of 2000 world, it is still a% GDP. -- 2012.

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It is speaking this year at 100 and -- this year. We still have to

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close the gap between what we spend and what we take in. That does not

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change, irrespective of the banking debt. In essence, because the EU

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required your government to nationalise all of that private

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debt. But that is not the only reason. It's a part of it.

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Irish people look at what has happened in Greece, for example,

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where they renegotiated the bail- out package several times, got more

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money from Europe when they said they could not cope with the

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austerity imposed upon them. Irish people said, we have been the good

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guys. We have been obedient to the Gen -- German and Brussels driven

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programme. And because of that, we get punished the most. There are

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two sides to that. One is that the situation in Greece is not

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comparable to the situation in Ireland. We have different problems,

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there is a different analysis and there are different solutions. It

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is not fair to say that Ireland has been treated differently or less

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favourably to how Greece has been treated. That is not true. Secondly,

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we have been working incrementally since we came into office just

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under two years ago to reduce the burden on Irish taxpayers. That is

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fundamentally my government's task. Reduced to the interest rate in

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loans in 20th July 11. Over the course of a lifetime, that will

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save taxpayers about 10 billion euros. -- July 2011. The promissory

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note was completely unfair and unreasonable and unsustainable as

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an arrangement between the Irish central bank and the successor to

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Anglo Irish Bank and the ECB. That deal will now save the taxpayer

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over the next ten years about 20 billion euros. Bit by bit, we are

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improving the situation in terms of the debt burden on the Irish state.

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Meanwhile, we are concentrating on getting the Irish economy back on

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track. Reforming the economic sector by insuring that we make

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Ireland more competitive. -- ensuring. Which requires growth. We

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have seen six austerity budgets in four years. There are bound to be

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more over the coming two or three years. That has not really changed.

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We see unemployment at around 15%. We see young people, we will talk

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about this more later, leaving this country because they can't find

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work. I put it to you again. The trade unions are leading a popular

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movement which says enough. We can't take any more. The trade

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unions obviously have a rule which they -- a role which they have to

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fill in society and the Irish economy but there are other voices.

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Employers, small and medium-sized enterprises. It is not just the

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voice of trade unions we have to listen to. All elements of the

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economy and society. If you look at Ireland, you can compare us to

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other member states without naming them, but the Irish economy in 2011,

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there in mind we entered the programme, the IMF-EU programme at

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the end of 2010. In 2011, the situation in Ireland had largely

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stabilised and rebate -- began to attract investment again. In 2011,

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that was when we are attracted the highest level of the first time

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foreign direct investment in the history of the state. Do you

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believe in Ireland the out of the economic straitjacket imposed by

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the EU and IMF and the emergency bail-out, will you be escaped from

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that by the end of this year? For sure? Absolutely. One last

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figure which I just wonder whether it gives you pause. The trade

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unions claimed that every Irish person has paid 9,000 euros per

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capita, in terms of the bank bail- out and what it cost the Irish

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state and taxpayer. They think the average across the European Union

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is 192 euros. They argue Ireland has bought the massive brand of

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this. I am not sure how they calculate that. But if that is to

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include all debt, as if it was paid up front, that does not reflect

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reality because the repayment period is extended for both the

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loans that we have had to borrow. And indeed through the promissory

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notes. Stability, jobs and growth has been... That is the agenda.

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mantra for your presidency. How will you ensure that Europe adopts

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a programme that delivers stability, jobs and growth? This is the

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challenge. The focus is very much firstly on ensuring that the single

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market, which has been the success story of the European Union and the

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European project, the consumer market of 500 million people, that

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it is opened up. We want to seek it opened up so we can see smaller

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companies, medium-sized companies, foreign direct investors trade

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across borders through the sale and the exchange of services, of all

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forms of products. That is not the case at the moment. It is

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interesting to hear your language compared with that of David Cameron

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in London when he made that major speech the other day, announcing

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that if he wins the next British election, they will be an in-out a

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referendum on European membership for the European public by 2017.

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His message is that right now he thinks there is something

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fundamentally dysfunctional about the way the EU works and certainly

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he wants the renegotiation for Britain of the deal. Do you think

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there is something dysfunctional about the way the EU works right

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now? I don't. What I took from David Cameron's speech, which I

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thought was interesting... It was reaffirming the UK's commitment to

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the European Union. As long as it reforms. Exactly. But I think that

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we are all trying... It is difficult. We have 27 member states.

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Unfortunately, it is not possible to reform like that. But what we

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want to do and what Ireland and the UK have a common agenda in this

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respect, and David Cameron is the first to talk about the single

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market and praise the single market over the last 20 years and talk

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about the need to improve it... it is by far the biggest trading

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partner of for you. A respected commentator wrote this the other

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day. He said, whether our politicians like it or not,

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relationships with Britain are far more important their relationships

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with anywhere else in the world. Britain and its relationship with

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us is our future and our past. Do you agree? I think the UK is our

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most important trading partner and our bilateral relations are

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stronger than ever before. How big the problem would it be for Ireland

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if the British public, in this referendum in 2017, if they voted

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to leave the European Union? would be very unhelpful. And very

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problematic for Ireland. I hope it does not happen. I don't believe it

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will happen but I certainly hope it is not the case. Assuming the

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Britain left the single market, what would Ireland do? -- that

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Britain. I don't think we would follow suit. We see huge potential,

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as does the British government, in deepening the single market and

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exploiting all of the potential that exists for now and for the

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future. The other important point for us, a country that has strong

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ties with the United States and huge hopes and expectations to

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broaden our horizons in terms of global trade, that leaving the

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European Union at a time when it is about to embark on a free-trade

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agreement with the United States, Canada, Japan and other crucial

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regions of the world, we don't want But to a prime minister has been

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clear that you cannot cherry-pick the powers that it wants to have.

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It cannot dictate the terms of the club that is actually of 27, soon

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to be 28 members. I think that is fair. So Ireland, in essence,

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thinks that Britain is being profoundly selfish. No. I would not

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say that. I appreciate that this is a difficult debate in the UK on the

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subject. I appreciate that the UK government, and British citizens,

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want to clarify their relationship with the European Union. I want to

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address a few eternal issues. You have been one of the most outspoken

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ministers of the current government. Delivering an interesting message,

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that Ireland needs to modernise and change. Who say that Ireland for

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too long has had a dysfunctional political system. You say it would

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be good for Ireland to be a bit more ideological, to have a clearer

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dividing line between political parties based on ideology of and

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less on the altar networking that we have seen in the past. At a

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certain way. With the Cabinet that it is rather unusual that we have a

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government comprised the first the centre left and the centre right.

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So are still cronies in government? No. It is still used for that we

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have a large majority and stable majority in government. It impact

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on this. Ideological, but also modern. That is the direction you

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want Ireland to going. I just wonder why you have decided to take

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a couple of high-profile positions that would not fit easily into that

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notion of modernisation. The first one, on gay marriage. He said he

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would be up for civil partnerships. -- you said you would. But you do

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not want to see gay marriage in Ireland. I suppose I have been a

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supporter of the notion that gay people should have rights. Equality

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means that should they wish to do so, they could get married. In just

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the same way that heterosexual couples could. I suppose it is a

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matter of opinion. The way the constitution is interpreted by the

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court system, marriage is and has been and continues to be defined as

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marriage between a man and a woman. He or defending kiss on the basis

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of tradition. There is nothing wrong with tradition. Not at all. I

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am just trying to tease out how this fits with your idea that

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Ireland needs to look forward to in the 21st century. I do nothing that

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modernisation means that you just totally abandon tradition. I think

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that you can have it side by side. There are many ways we need to

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modernise. I do not believe that is one of them. I am speaking as

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someone who, unlike many of my colleagues, spoke on error

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legislation two years ago to introduce civil partnership. I

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spoke passionately on behalf of it. It is a matter of opinion. And one

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thing I do think will happen, by the way, is that there will be a

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referendum to change the definition of marriage in our constitution at

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some point. What will people decide? Genuinely I do not know. I

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think there is divided opinion. Opinions are shifting, aren't they?

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If one is going to be blunt about it, the role and influence of the

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Catholic Church's changing pretty rapidly. Absolutely. If I may make

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another point, you passionate defence of Ireland, -- Island's

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current laws about abortion, it is one of the most difficult countries

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when it comes to outlawing abortion. There needs to be a substantial,

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significant risk to the life of the mother. You want the status quo to

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be maintained even though there is a loud and public argument with

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many Irish people who want a change. Indeed, your own government is

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talking about legislating to be clearer and broader about the

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situations in which abortion can be carried out. I would take issue

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:19:45.:19:48.

in this country is draconian. We have a very clear position in the

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constitution. What word would you choose? I would not call which

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draconian. In our constitution, we as a country, the Irish state,

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values equally the right to life of mothers and babies. That includes

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unborn babies. There is no distinction or hierarchy. You know

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better than I do that there are hundreds of women over the past

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three years alone who have let the Irish Republic to get abortions

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abroad. Many in the UK. These include 19 rape victims, 21 with

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severe health problems, more than 20 girls under the age of 16. Does

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it seem to you write that the way the system works right now, does

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extremely vulnerable young women all have to go abroad to get

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abortions? Firstly, I do not know where your information is coming

:20:53.:20:59.

from. I think, from my point of view, speaking from my personal

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point of view, I feel very strongly that there is virtually, very few

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circumstances I am aware of where treatment cannot and should not be

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provided for women who are vulnerable and pregnant. I do not

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see abortion as a treatment for vulnerable women. It depends, I

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suppose, on your view on life and unborn children. But I feel very

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strongly and support strongly our constitutional position, that there

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is an equal right to life of women and unborn babies. That is

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something that I think Irish people have held dear for many years. It

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is something I consider to be worth defending. A final point. A bigger

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issue. Continuing esteem about where Ireland is going. -- this

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theme. It seems a lot of young people have lost faith in the

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notion that Ireland can modernise, can change itself and reform its

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economy in a way that will give them a positive future. The

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emigration figures, once again, in Ireland are very tricky. We have

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:22:31.:22:32.

had something between 85-87,000 people leaving this country. Why do

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you believe so many young Irish people are leaving? I think because

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we do not have the opportunities here for them. So many young Irish

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people, when they leave university or finish their training or leave

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second double school, they do not see opportunities here. -- second

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level. We have gone in such a short, I mean, this has been an enormous

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shock to the system. Since the beginning of 2008, less than five

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years from being a country that was growing and dynamic and had huge

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opportunity, and was job opportunities, opportunities for

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all sorts of careers and lifestyles. With the prick of a pen, it

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disappeared and evaporated. That is why we are working so hard to try

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and gradually rebuild that. I do not think anybody wants to return

:23:41.:23:45.

to the Celtic Tiger sort of economy or society that we had during the

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period. I genuinely feel that the steps that we have taken might have

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been difficult and painful, but they are beginning to show results.

:23:58.:24:01.

They are beginning to re-establish opportunities for young people.

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That is my task in government. That is what we are doing. We are

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working around the clock, all of our ministers and government, to

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try and turn around what was essentially a situation of freefall

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and cut back the foundations so that we can start to build on it

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