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Now it is time for hard talk. From Hardtalk has come to Dublin - the | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
capital of Ireland, which holds the presidency of the European Union. | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
It is a symbolic leadership role which coincides with the attempts | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
to escape from the economic straitjacket imposed by the EU and | :00:28. | :00:38. | |
:00:38. | :00:43. | ||
the IMF when they agreed to bail out the Irish economy. My guest is | :00:43. | :00:52. | |
Lucinda Craighto. -- Craighton. | :00:52. | :01:00. | |
Are they convincing the world they are bouncing back? | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
Welcome to Hardtalk. Let's start by talking about the enormous debt | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
mountain which has almost crushed the Irish state N the last few days | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
your Government has trumpeted a deal which has remortgaged a huge | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
chunk of that debt. It seems, in a way, a symbol of how deep the | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
crisis is in this country that that is the greatest triumph of your | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
Government, that you have remortgaged some debt. We are not | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
mid-way through the term in office. I hope by the end of our | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
Government's term that we will have achieved more than reducing the | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
debt burden. It is important. We have, I suppose a mead unanimous- | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
term strategy. One part -- medium- term strategy. One part has been | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
achieved. The next step is getting back to the markets and being able | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
to borrow money at a reasonable, sustainable rate so we can fund our | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
public services and so on and run our Government. That deadline, I | :02:04. | :02:11. | |
suppose is fast approaching. Ensuring we have managed the debt | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
burden is an important part of that taskment. Although this concerns | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
the 30 billion euros of the collapse of the Anglo Irish Bank | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
and nationwide, that money has to be paid back. It doesn't mean you | :02:29. | :02:37. | |
have solved the other banking debt, which is tens and tens of billions | :02:37. | :02:47. | |
We were the first country standing against what was pretty much a | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
tsunami in the banking world, which was about to hit the European Union, | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
particularly the eurozone. Ireland was the first country, if you like, | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
in the line of fire. We definitely took a disproportionate hit. Even | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
when you and other members of the Government were saying this was a | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
great result for Ireland, we had thousands taking to the streets in | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
Dublin and elsewhere, led by the trade union movement saying nothing | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
has changed. Still the Irish people are paying vast amounts of money | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
and suffering prolonged austerity because of the mistakes made and | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
the incompetence of the leaders of the banking system in this country | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
and politicians and Europeans who refuse to be fair to the Irish | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
public. I think very few people would say nothing has changed, | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
because it is significant. Over the next ten years the Irish state, | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
Irish taxpayers would have had to pay 3.2 billion euro each year, | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
every year, in order to pay back. That has now changed. We don't re- | :03:58. | :04:06. | |
pay any of the principal sum for 25 years. It has extended from an | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
average of seven to eight years right out to close to 30 years. The | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
interest rate will be at a lower rate. It is a good deal. It is an | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
important deal. It's not the only solution to our challenges. It's an | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
important part of that. When I talk about people who say not much has | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
changed, they are ordinary workers and many jobless people who look | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
around at the reality of their own lives and, what will change for me? | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
Just looking at the fact that your next budget will be an austerity | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
budget. There'll be taxes on property and water coming up. As | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
far as I understand it, you are committed to cutting four billion | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
more from the state budget by 2015, so the cuts will continue. And the | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
trade union movement say, new deal, same problem, 1.8 million people | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
cannot pay off a bank debt that amounts to 64 billion euros. We're | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
in the process of working out the budgetary impact of this deal. | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
Austerity does continue, doesn't it? Of course it does. Let's be | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
clear. Our consultation programme would have to continue, in any | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
event. Our deficit is very large. Our deficit, even at the end of | :05:25. | :05:34. | |
2012 is 8% of GDP. Peeking this year at just over -- peaking this | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
year at just over 120% GDP. The point we have to make is we have to | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
close the gap between what we are spending and taking in. That | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
doesn't change, irrespective of the banking debt. In essence the EU | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
required your Government to nationalise all that private debt. | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
That's not the only reason. What I am getting is that Irish people | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
look at Greece, for example, where they have successfully, frankly, | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
renegotiated the bailout package. More money from Europe when they | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
said they could not cope with the austerity imposeded on them. Irish | :06:14. | :06:21. | |
people have said, we have played it straight. We have been utterly - | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
beadant to the programme. Because of this we get punished the most. | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
There are two sides to that. One is that I think the situation in | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
Greece is not comparable to the situation in Ireland. We have | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
different problems. There's a different analysis. There are | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
different soe luelgss. It's not -- solutions. It is not fair to say | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
that Ireland has been treated differently or less favourably to | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
how Greece has been treated. I don't think that is true. The | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
second point is we have been working incrementally since we came | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
into office just under two years ago to reduce the burden on Irish | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
taxpayers. The first thing we did was reduce the interest rate on our | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
loans in July 2011. That, over the course of the lifetime of our loans | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
will save 10 billion euro. We have renegotiated the note, which was a | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
completely unfair and unreasonable and unsustainable arrangement | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
between the Irish central bank and the successor to Anglo Irish Bank | :07:30. | :07:37. | |
and the ECB. That will save the Irish taxpayer 20 billion euros. | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
Bit by bit, we are improving the situation. In terms of the debt | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
burden - meanwhile we are concentrating on getting the Irish | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
economy back on track and reforming our economic sector by ensuring | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
that we make Ireland more competitive. Which requires growth. | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
It is difficult to deliver growth when we have seen six austerity | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
budgets. We have discussed the fact there are bound to be more over the | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
coming two to three years. That has not changed. We see unemployment | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
around 15%. We see young people, and we will talk about this more | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
later, but young people leaving this country because they cannot | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
find work. As I put it to you again, the trade unions are leading a | :08:23. | :08:29. | |
popular movement, which says enough, we simply cannot take any more. | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
trade unions obviously have a role which they have to fulfil in Irish | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
society and indeed in the Irish economy. There are other voices as | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
well, for example employ years. It's not just the voice of trade | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
unions we have to listen to. It's the whole package. And all elements | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
of our society. If you look at Ireland, and compare us to other | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
member-states, without naming them but the Irish economy, for example | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
in 2011, bear in mind we entered our IMF programme at the end of | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
2010. 2011 - within a matter of months, the situation in Ireland | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
had stabilised and we began to reattract investment into this | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
economy, which was absent for the previous few years. 2011, for | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
example, was the year where we attracted the highest level of | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
first time foreign investment in the history of the state. Do you | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
believe in Ireland being out of the economic straitjacket imposed by | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
the IMF in the emergency bailout. Will you be escaped from that by | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
the end of this year? Yes. sure? Absolutely. Here's one last | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
figure, which I wonder whether it gives you cause. The trade unions | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
are claiming every Irish person has paid 9,000 euros per capita, in | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
terms of the bank bail out and what it has cost the Irish state and | :09:58. | :10:08. | |
:10:08. | :10:08. | ||
taxpayer. They reckon the average is 192 euros. Ireland they argue | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
has borne the massive brunt of this. If that is to include all debt as | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
if paid up front, well of course that doesn't reflect reality | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
because the repayment period is extended for both the loans that we | :10:23. | :10:33. | |
:10:33. | :10:37. | ||
have had to brother from the E FSM and through -- borrow from the EFSM. | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
8 How on earth are you going to ensure that Europe adopts a | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
programme that delivers stability, growth and jobs? This is the | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
challenge. Our focus is very much, firstly, on ensuring the single | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
market, which has been the success story of the European Union, of the | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
European project - the consumer market of 500 million people, that | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
that is opened up. There is a lot of protectionalism in Europe. We | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
want it opened up so we can see small and medium-sized companies, | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
foreign investors trade across boarders, through the sale and -- | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
borders, through the sale and services of all forms of products. | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
That's not the case at the moment. I am interested to hear your | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
language and compare and contrast it with David Cameron across the | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
water, in London, when he made that major speech just the other day, | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
announcing that if he wins the next British election there'll be an in- | :11:35. | :11:43. | |
out referendum on European membership. His message is, right | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
now, he thinks there's something dysfunctional about how the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
European Union works and for Britain's part he wants a | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
renegotiation of the deal. Do you think there's something | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
dysfunctional about the way the EU works right now? No, I don't. What | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
I took from the speech - I thought it was an interesting speech. It | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
was reaffirming the UK's commitment to the European Union. As long as | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
the European Union reforms. Exactly! Accepts fundamental reform. | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
I think we're all trying. It is difficult - we have 27 member- | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
states. It's not unfortunately possible to reform like that. What | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
we want to do and I think that Ireland and the UK have a very | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
common agenda in this respect and David Cameron is the first person | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
to talk about the potential for the single market - the first person to | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
praise the single market over the past 20 years and talk about the | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
need to improve it. Britain is by far your biggest trading partner in | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
the world in fact. When one of the respected economic commentators | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
here wrote this the other day I wonder whether you agree. "Whether | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
politicians like it or not, relations with Britain are far more | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
important than relations with any other country in the world. Britain | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
is our future, as well as our past." Do you agree with that? | :13:02. | :13:09. | |
certainly think that the UK is our most - it is clear the UK is our | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
most important trading partner. Our bilateral relations are stronger | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
than ever before. How big a problem would it be if the British public | :13:19. | :13:29. | |
:13:29. | :13:36. | ||
in 2017, if they voted to leave the I hope it doesn't happen. I don't | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
believe it will happen. I hope it isn't the case. Assuming Britain | :13:42. | :13:48. | |
left the EU and the single market, what would Ireland do? We wouldn't | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
be following suit. We see a huge potential, as does the British | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
Government, in deepening the single market and exploiting all of the | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
potential from the single market that exists for now and for the | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
future. I think the other point that is hugely important for us, a | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
country that has very strong ties with the United States and huge | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
hopes and expectations to broaden our horizons in terms of global | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
trade, that leaving the European Union, at a time when the EU is | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
just about to embark on a free trade agreement with the the United | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
States, Canada and Japan and other crucial regions of the world, we | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
don't want to turn our back on that. Your Prime Minister has been very | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
clear that Britain, in the end, cannot, and various metaphors are | :14:39. | :14:47. | |
used, cannot expect an to cherry- pick the powers it wants it | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
repatriate and dictate the terms of a club which is of 27, soon to be | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
28mebts members, not all about the needs of one particular member? | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
think that is fair. Ireland, in essence, think that is Britain is | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
being profoundly selfish? No, I wouldn't say that. Look, I | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
appreciate that there is a very difficult debate in the UK on this | :15:11. | :15:19. | |
subject. I appreciate that... That the UK Government, I think, I | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
presume British citizens, want to clarify the relationship with the | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
European Union. Before we end, I do want to address a few, sort of, | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
internal issues in Ireland. It seems to me you have been one of | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
the out spoken ministers in the gurnt government. Delivering an | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
interesting message that Ireland needs to modernise and change. You | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
said for Ireland too long has had a disfunctional political system. You | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
suggested it would be good for Ireland to be a little more | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
ideological. To have clearer dividing linings between political | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
parties based on ideology and less of the old networking cronyism that | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
we have seen in the past. Is that a fair reflection of the way you | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
think Ireland must change? Certainly. With the caveat that, of | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
course, it's unusual that we also have a government that is | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
compromised of the centre left and the centre-right. We have a very | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
broad government at the moment. Still cronies in government? | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
wouldn't say that. I think it's useful to that we have a very large | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
majority in government and stable majority in government, but, of | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
course, obviously, you know, it impacts on this discussion about | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
having an ideological kind of Ireland. Ideological and modern. | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
That is the direction you want Ireland to go in. I wonder why you | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
have decided to take a couple of high profiles file position that is | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
maybe wouldn't fit easily into that notion of modernisation. First one, | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
on gay marriage. You have said you are up for civil partnerships. You | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
believe they are the right way to go. You do not want to see gay | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
marriage in Ireland? Why? Well, I spotion, I have been a supporter -- | :16:59. | :17:06. | |
suppose, I have been a supporter of the notion that gay people should | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
have -- Equality? Rights. Surely equality means, should they wish to | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
do so, they can get married in the same way that heterosexual couples | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
can get married? It is a matser of opinion in our constitution and the | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
way it is interpreted by our court system marriage is and has been and | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
continues to be defined as a marriage between a man and woman. | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
You are defending it on the basis of tradition? There is not | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
something wrong with tradition. teasing out with how it fits with | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
your notion that Ireland needs to modernise, needs to look forward to | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
the 21st century? Absolutely. I don't think modernisation means you | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
abandon tradition. I think you can have both side by side. There are | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
many ways in which we need to modernise, I don't happen to | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
believe that is one of them. Speaking as somebody who, unlike | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
many of my colleagues in our Parliament spoke on our legislation, | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
two years ago, to introduce civil partnership, I spoke in favour of | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
it because I believed it was the right thing. That, I suppose, you | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
know, is a matter of opinion. Another one passionate - What I | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
think will happen, on that subject, I think that there will be most | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
likely a referendum to change the definition of marriage in our | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
constitution at some point. What do you think they will decide? I don't | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
know. Genuinely I don't know. I think there are very divided | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
opinions. Opinions are shifting, aren't they? If one is going to be | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
very blunt about it, the role and influence of the Catholic Church is | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
changing pretty rapidly in this country? Absolutely. Which brings | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
me to another point, your passionate defence of Ireland's | :18:53. | :18:59. | |
current laws and practices when it comes to abortion. It's one of the | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
most draconia countries in the Europe when it comes to outlawing | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
abortion. Abortions can only happen in this country if there is a | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
substantial, significant risk to the life of the mother. You want | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
the current status quo to be maintained even though there is a | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
very loud and public argument now, with many Irish people, who want a | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
change. Indeed, your own government is now talking about legislating to | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
be clearer and actually a little broader about the specification in | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
which an abortion can be carried out. Why are you against that? | :19:33. | :19:40. | |
Firstly, I would take issue with the view that having a very | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
restrictive position on abortion in this country is how draconia. We | :19:45. | :19:54. | |
have a very clear position in our constitution. What word would you | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
use? To explain. In our constitution we, as a country, and | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
the Irish state, values equally the right to life of mothers and babies. | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
And, that includes unborn babies. There is no distinction nor | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
hierarchy. A final point on this, you know Bert than I do the stats | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
here, there are hundreds and hundreds of women, over the last | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
three years alone, who have left the Irish Republic to get abortions | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
abroad. Many in the UK. These include 19 rape victims, 21 with | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
severe health problems, more than 20 girls under the age of 16. Now, | :20:34. | :20:41. | |
does it seem to you right that the way the system works right now, | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
those extremely vulnerable young women all have to go abroad to get | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
abortions? Well, firstly, I don't know where your information is | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
coming from. I think it's, from my point of view, I'm just speaking | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
from my personal point of view, I feel very strongly that, you know, | :21:02. | :21:11. | |
there is virtually a very, very few circumstances that I'm aware of | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
where treatment cannot and should not be provided for women who are | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
vulnerable who are pregnant. I don't see abortion as a treatment | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
for vulnerable women. I mean, it depends, I suppose, on your view of | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
life. It depends on your view of unborn children. I feel very | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
strongly, I support strongly our constitution position that there is | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
an equal right to life of women and unborn babies. You know, that is | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
something that I think Irish people have held dear for many, many years. | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
It is something that I consider to be worth defending. A final point | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
then, it is a bigger issue, I suppose, but it continues this | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
theme about where Ireland is going and the modernisation and the | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
change of Ireland. It seems a loft young people, you are a young | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
politician, a lot of young people in Ireland have lost faith in the | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
notion that Ireland can modernise, can change itself and certainly can | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
reform its economy in a way that will give them a really positive | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
future? The immigration figures, once again in Ireland, are very | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
troubling. You have, I think, in the last year something between 85 | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
and 8 7,000 people, Irish people, left this country. Reminiscant of | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
the figures back in the 19th century. Why do you believe so many | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
young Irish people are leaving? think because we don't have the | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
opportunities here for them. I think so many young Irish people, | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
when they leave university, or when they finish their training or when | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
they leave second level school they don't see opportunities here. | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
That's - The country is failing them? Well, it has, certainly. We | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
have gone... In such a short time. This has been a shock to the system. | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
We have done from a short period of time, since the beginning of 200 to | :23:07. | :23:14. | |
20134, -- 2013, less than five years from being a country that was | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
growing, die Natic and had huge opportunities, endless job | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
opportunities, opportunities for all sorts of careers and lifestyles | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
and I think that that really, you know, almost with the prick of a | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
pin, just disappeared and evaporated. That is why we are | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
working hard to gradually rebuild that. I don't think that anybody | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
really wants to return to the Celtic Tiger, sort of, either | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
economy or society that we had during that period, but, I mean, I | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
really genuinely feel that the step that is we have taken, while they | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
have been very difficult, very painful, are beginning to show and | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
beginning to show results and beginning to start reestablishing | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
opportunities for young people. That is what I see as my task in | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
government. You know, that is what we are doing. We are working round- | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
the-clock, all of our ministers, all of our government, to try to | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
turn around what was essentially, you know, a situation of free-fall | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
and try to put back the foundations so that we can start to build it up | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
again and give people hope and show young people that there are | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
opportunities and that Ireland is a great place to live in. A great | :24:26. | :24:32. |