Rached Ghannouchi - President, Ennahda Movement, Tunisia HARDtalk


Rached Ghannouchi - President, Ennahda Movement, Tunisia

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a mosque as worshippers were a mosque as worshippers were

:00:00.:00:03.

a mosque as worshippers were leaving evening prayers. Those are

:00:03.:00:05.

leaving evening prayers. Those are leaving evening prayers. Those are

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leaving evening prayers. Those are the main stories. Now on BBC News

:00:06.:00:08.

the main stories. Now on BBC News the main stories. Now on BBC News

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it's time for' HARDtalk. -- HARDtalk is in Tunisia, birthplace

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HARDtalk is in Tunisia, birthplace HARDtalk is in Tunisia, birthplace

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HARDtalk is in Tunisia, birthplace of the Arab uprising more than two

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of the Arab uprising more than two of the Arab uprising more than two

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of the Arab uprising more than two years ago. My guest today is the

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years ago. My guest today is the years ago. My guest today is the

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most important man in this country, most important man in this country,

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most important man in this country, the veteran leader of the ruling

:00:23.:00:28.

the veteran leader of the ruling He is one of the most important

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He is one of the most important advocates of political Islam in the

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advocates of political Islam in the advocates of political Islam in the

:00:32.:00:34.

world. But can freedom, democracy world. But can freedom, democracy

:00:35.:00:44.
:00:45.:01:07.

Rached Ghannouchi, welcome to Rached Ghannouchi, welcome to

:01:07.:01:10.

Rached Ghannouchi, welcome to HARDtalk. It seems the Tunisian

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HARDtalk. It seems the Tunisian HARDtalk. It seems the Tunisian

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revolution has entered a dangerous revolution has entered a dangerous

:01:12.:01:22.
:01:22.:01:22.

revolution has entered a dangerous Even though you have seen

:01:22.:01:24.

Even though you have seen Even though you have seen

:01:24.:01:25.

polarisation in this country, and polarisation in this country, and

:01:25.:01:26.

polarisation in this country, and you have seen very serious

:01:26.:01:36.
:01:36.:01:36.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 51 seconds

:01:36.:02:28.

But we have the words of the But we have the words of the

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himself, who just before he was killed accused your

:02:34.:02:34.

killed accused your movement,

:02:34.:02:35.

killed accused your movement, Ennahda,

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Ennahda, of

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killed accused your movement, Ennahda, of being

:02:36.:02:37.

Ennahda, of being behind

:02:37.:02:37.

killed accused your movement, Ennahda, of being behind much

:02:37.:02:37.

Ennahda, of being behind much of

:02:37.:02:37.

Ennahda, of being behind much of the

:02:38.:02:38.

the political

:02:38.:02:38.

Ennahda, of being behind much of the political violence.

:02:38.:02:39.

the political violence. He

:02:39.:02:40.

Ennahda, of being behind much of the political violence. He said,

:02:40.:02:41.

the political violence. He said, "All

:02:41.:02:41.

"All those

:02:41.:02:42.

the political violence. He said, "All those who

:02:42.:02:43.

"All those who oppose

:02:43.:02:43.

the political violence. He said, "All those who oppose any

:02:43.:02:43.

"All those who oppose any ardour

:02:43.:02:43.

"All those who oppose any ardour are

:02:43.:02:44.

are now

:02:44.:02:45.

"All those who oppose any ardour are now targets.

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are now targets."

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"All those who oppose any ardour are now targets." shortly

:02:47.:02:48.

are now targets." shortly later

:02:48.:02:48.

"All those who oppose any ardour are now targets." shortly later he

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are now targets." shortly later he was

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was killed

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are now targets." shortly later he was killed --

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was killed -- Ennahda.

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are now targets." shortly later he was killed -- Ennahda. That

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was killed -- Ennahda. That is

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was killed -- Ennahda. That is something

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something you

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was killed -- Ennahda. That is something you now

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something you now have

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was killed -- Ennahda. That is something you now have to

:02:52.:02:53.

something you now have to explain

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something you now have to explain to

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to the

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something you now have to explain to the Tunisian

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to the Tunisian people.

:02:54.:03:04.
:03:04.:03:04.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 51 seconds

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But

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But Mr

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But Mr Ghannouchi,

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But Mr Ghannouchi, this isn't just But Mr Ghannouchi, this isn't just

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But Mr Ghannouchi, this isn't just about the anger of a grieving

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about the anger of a grieving about the anger of a grieving

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about the anger of a grieving family. I come back to the point

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family. I come back to the point family. I come back to the point

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family. I come back to the point that before he died, shook rebel I

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that before he died, shook rebel I that before he died, shook rebel I

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need plainly pointed a finger at need plainly pointed a finger at

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need plainly pointed a finger at York ruling party, Ennahda Movement.

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York ruling party, Ennahda Movement. York ruling party, Ennahda Movement.

:04:38.:04:40.

He said there was evidence your He said there was evidence your

:04:40.:04:41.

He said there was evidence your party was connected to these

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party was connected to these party was connected to these

:04:43.:04:44.

militias, the leaks for the militias, the leaks for the

:04:44.:04:45.

militias, the leaks for the Protection of the Revolution, which

:04:45.:04:46.

Protection of the Revolution, which Protection of the Revolution, which

:04:46.:04:48.

he says have been intimidating he says have been intimidating

:04:48.:04:49.

opposition figures, journalists, opposition figures, journalists,

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opposition figures, journalists, trade unions and others for many

:04:51.:04:52.

trade unions and others for many trade unions and others for many

:04:52.:05:02.
:05:02.:05:25.

Let's talk about another Let's talk about another

:05:25.:05:28.

potentially dangerous element in potentially dangerous element in

:05:28.:05:30.

Tunisian Society, that's the Tunisian Society, that's the

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Tunisian Society, that's the Selassie movement. I have met

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Selassie movement. I have met Selassie movement. I have met

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myself young bearded men in city myself young bearded men in city

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myself young bearded men in city myself young bearded men in city

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busy who say they have no interest busy who say they have no interest

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busy who say they have no interest in democracy. They are committed to

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in democracy. They are committed to in democracy. They are committed to

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in democracy. They are committed to jihad. And they will do all in

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jihad. And they will do all in jihad. And they will do all in

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their power to establish Islamic their power to establish Islamic

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their power to establish Islamic their power to establish Islamic

:05:48.:05:51.

Sharia law in this country. Do you Sharia law in this country. Do you

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Sharia law in this country. Do you Sharia law in this country. Do you

:05:53.:05:54.

regard such men as a danger to the regard such men as a danger to the

:05:54.:05:55.

regard such men as a danger to the regard such men as a danger to the

:05:55.:05:56.

state? And are you prepared to take state? And are you prepared to take

:05:56.:05:59.

state? And are you prepared to take whatever action is necessary to

:05:59.:06:00.

whatever action is necessary to whatever action is necessary to

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:06:10.:06:10.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 51 seconds

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ensure they cannot carry out acts UC there are critics of your party

:07:11.:07:13.

UC there are critics of your party UC there are critics of your party

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UC there are critics of your party in this country who say you have

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in this country who say you have in this country who say you have

:07:16.:07:18.

been soft on the Salafists. And been soft on the Salafists. And

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been soft on the Salafists. And they say, for example, the Interior

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they say, for example, the Interior they say, for example, the Interior

:07:23.:07:23.

they say, for example, the Interior Minister, who is now to be Prime

:07:23.:07:24.

Minister, who is now to be Prime Minister, who is now to be Prime

:07:24.:07:26.

Minister of this country thanks to Minister of this country thanks to

:07:26.:07:28.

Minister of this country thanks to Minister of this country thanks to

:07:28.:07:30.

you, his record suggests he is not you, his record suggests he is not

:07:30.:07:40.
:07:40.:07:48.

you, his record suggests he is not prepared to confront the Salafists

:07:48.:07:58.
:07:58.:08:26.

If I may, and I'm sorry to If I may, and I'm sorry to

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If I may, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr Ghannouchi, but

:08:27.:08:28.

interrupt you, Mr Ghannouchi, but interrupt you, Mr Ghannouchi, but

:08:28.:08:30.

interrupt you, Mr Ghannouchi, but if I made your opponents 0.2 video

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if I made your opponents 0.2 video if I made your opponents 0.2 video

:08:33.:08:35.

evidence, for example, of you evidence, for example, of you

:08:35.:08:36.

evidence, for example, of you yourself engaging in what appeared

:08:36.:08:39.

yourself engaging in what appeared yourself engaging in what appeared

:08:39.:08:42.

to be very conversation with young to be very conversation with young

:08:42.:08:44.

Salafists last year. It was Salafists last year. It was

:08:44.:08:46.

Salafists last year. It was Salafists last year. It was

:08:46.:08:48.

released last year of Usain to them, released last year of Usain to them,

:08:48.:08:49.

released last year of Usain to them, "Be patient, the government is in

:08:49.:08:50.

"Be patient, the government is in "Be patient, the government is in

:08:50.:08:52.

the hands of the Islamists. The the hands of the Islamists. The

:08:52.:08:53.

the hands of the Islamists. The the hands of the Islamists. The

:08:53.:08:55.

masts are ours. We have become the masts are ours. We have become the

:08:55.:08:55.

masts are ours. We have become the most important entity in the

:08:55.:08:58.

most important entity in the most important entity in the

:08:58.:09:00.

country -- the Moscows. We must country -- the Moscows. We must

:09:00.:09:01.

country -- the Moscows. We must establish Corral next calls because

:09:01.:09:03.

establish Corral next calls because establish Corral next calls because

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establish Corral next calls because our people are ignorant of Islam".

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our people are ignorant of Islam". our people are ignorant of Islam".

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:09:15.:09:15.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 51 seconds

:09:15.:10:02.

our people are ignorant of Islam". Let me put this bluntly to you, Mr

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Let me put this bluntly to you, Mr Let me put this bluntly to you, Mr

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Ghannouchi, I've spoken to the Ghannouchi, I've spoken to the

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Ghannouchi, I've spoken to the President who says he believes

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President who says he believes President who says he believes

:10:08.:10:10.

there are hundreds of committed there are hundreds of committed

:10:10.:10:11.

there are hundreds of committed there are hundreds of committed

:10:11.:10:13.

Salafists who are a danger to this Salafists who are a danger to this

:10:13.:10:13.

Salafists who are a danger to this country. And he says if this

:10:13.:10:16.

country. And he says if this country. And he says if this

:10:16.:10:18.

problem is not tackled there is the problem is not tackled there is the

:10:18.:10:20.

problem is not tackled there is the possibility of civil war in Tunisia.

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:10:30.:10:48.

possibility of civil war in Tunisia. It was very striking that in the

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It was very striking that in the It was very striking that in the

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wake of the assassination of truck wake of the assassination of truck

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wake of the assassination of truck rebel I eat, there were important

:10:53.:10:55.

rebel I eat, there were important rebel I eat, there were important

:10:55.:11:00.

figures inside your own party, figures inside your own party,

:11:00.:11:00.

figures inside your own party, including then Prime Minister Mr

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including then Prime Minister Mr including then Prime Minister Mr

:11:01.:11:03.

Hoare Mardie Jebali, who believed Hoare Mardie Jebali, who believed

:11:03.:11:04.

Hoare Mardie Jebali, who believed Hoare Mardie Jebali, who believed

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it would be the best thing for it would be the best thing for

:11:07.:11:08.

it would be the best thing for Tunisia to establish a non-partisan

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Tunisia to establish a non-partisan government of technocrats for

:11:10.:11:11.

government of technocrats for government of technocrats for

:11:11.:11:12.

government of technocrats for Ennahda or to take a back seat. You

:11:12.:11:22.
:11:22.:11:50.

But this is a crisis facing Tunisia But this is a crisis facing Tunisia

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But this is a crisis facing Tunisia But this is a crisis facing Tunisia

:11:51.:11:53.

today. And others in your own party, today. And others in your own party,

:11:53.:11:55.

including Vice-President Abdel including Vice-President Abdel

:11:55.:11:56.

including Vice-President Abdel including Vice-President Abdel

:11:56.:11:58.

Fatah, said that if you continue on Fatah, said that if you continue on

:11:58.:11:59.

Fatah, said that if you continue on your present course you and other

:11:59.:12:04.

your present course you and other your present course you and other

:12:04.:12:05.

senior leaders -- course, you and senior leaders -- course, you and

:12:05.:12:07.

senior leaders -- course, you and other senior leaders in Ennahda, he

:12:07.:12:12.

other senior leaders in Ennahda, he other senior leaders in Ennahda, he

:12:12.:12:14.

said you face disaster. Unless said you face disaster. Unless

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said you face disaster. Unless everyone changes we do face

:12:15.:12:24.
:12:25.:12:54.

everyone changes we do face So let us be very clear then. Right

:12:54.:12:55.

So let us be very clear then. Right So let us be very clear then. Right

:12:55.:12:56.

So let us be very clear then. Right now the debate still is about the

:12:56.:12:57.

now the debate still is about the now the debate still is about the

:12:57.:12:58.

shape of Tunisia's new constitution. shape of Tunisia's new constitution.

:12:58.:13:00.

shape of Tunisia's new constitution. shape of Tunisia's new constitution.

:13:00.:13:00.

It was supposed to be settled by It was supposed to be settled by

:13:00.:13:02.

It was supposed to be settled by It was supposed to be settled by

:13:02.:13:03.

now but you still don't have a new now but you still don't have a new

:13:03.:13:05.

now but you still don't have a new constitution. Let me ask you some

:13:05.:13:07.

constitution. Let me ask you some simple questions about this

:13:07.:13:09.

simple questions about this simple questions about this

:13:09.:13:10.

constitution. Will there or will constitution. Will there or will

:13:10.:13:11.

constitution. Will there or will constitution. Will there or will

:13:11.:13:12.

there not be a reference to Sharia there not be a reference to Sharia

:13:12.:13:15.

there not be a reference to Sharia there not be a reference to Sharia

:13:15.:13:25.
:13:25.:13:42.

as the basis of law in the new And what about an absolute

:13:42.:13:45.

And what about an absolute commitment to gender equality.

:13:45.:13:47.

commitment to gender equality. commitment to gender equality.

:13:47.:13:48.

Because even the UN Working Group Because even the UN Working Group

:13:48.:13:50.

Because even the UN Working Group on discrimination against women has

:13:50.:13:53.

on discrimination against women has expressed concerns about the

:13:53.:13:54.

expressed concerns about the expressed concerns about the

:13:54.:13:55.

strength of the commitment inside strength of the commitment inside

:13:55.:13:57.

strength of the commitment inside the draft documents for the

:13:57.:13:58.

the draft documents for the the draft documents for the

:13:58.:13:59.

constitution to this idea of constitution to this idea of

:13:59.:14:01.

constitution to this idea of absolute gender equality. Will you

:14:01.:14:11.
:14:11.:14:49.

absolute gender equality. Will you Let us be clear about the current

:14:49.:14:50.

Let us be clear about the current Let us be clear about the current

:14:50.:14:52.

situation. The country is in limbo situation. The country is in limbo

:14:52.:14:54.

situation. The country is in limbo because there is no constitution

:14:54.:14:55.

because there is no constitution and parliamentary elections that

:14:55.:14:56.

and parliamentary elections that and parliamentary elections that

:14:56.:14:57.

were supposed to take place have were supposed to take place have

:14:57.:15:00.

were supposed to take place have were supposed to take place have

:15:00.:15:00.

been put back until the summer and been put back until the summer and

:15:01.:15:02.

been put back until the summer and according to the President, they

:15:02.:15:04.

according to the President, they according to the President, they

:15:04.:15:05.

according to the President, they may not take place until October or

:15:05.:15:07.

may not take place until October or may not take place until October or

:15:07.:15:08.

November. You are the most powerful November. You are the most powerful

:15:08.:15:10.

November. You are the most powerful November. You are the most powerful

:15:10.:15:11.

man in this country. Can you tell man in this country. Can you tell

:15:11.:15:12.

man in this country. Can you tell man in this country. Can you tell

:15:12.:15:15.

me the specific date by which you me the specific date by which you

:15:15.:15:16.

me the specific date by which you can guarantee there will be fresh

:15:16.:15:18.

can guarantee there will be fresh parliamentary and presidential

:15:18.:15:28.
:15:28.:15:56.

Is that a guarantee? But is it a Is that a guarantee? But is it a

:15:56.:15:56.

Is that a guarantee? But is it a guarantee? Because there are some

:15:56.:15:58.

guarantee? Because there are some guarantee? Because there are some

:15:58.:15:59.

guarantee? Because there are some in Tunisia who believe that you are

:15:59.:16:09.
:16:09.:16:17.

in Tunisia who believe that you are But if I may be blunt, do you

:16:17.:16:18.

But if I may be blunt, do you But if I may be blunt, do you

:16:18.:16:18.

believe when the Tunisia and people believe when the Tunisia and people

:16:18.:16:20.

believe when the Tunisia and people see your own son-in-law appointed

:16:20.:16:21.

see your own son-in-law appointed see your own son-in-law appointed

:16:21.:16:24.

to the important post of Foreign to the important post of Foreign

:16:24.:16:27.

to the important post of Foreign Minister and when they then read

:16:27.:16:28.

Minister and when they then read allegations that the Foreign

:16:28.:16:29.

allegations that the Foreign allegations that the Foreign

:16:29.:16:30.

Minister reviews to the public Minister reviews to the public

:16:30.:16:33.

Minister reviews to the public trust by occupying a luxury hotel

:16:33.:16:33.

trust by occupying a luxury hotel trust by occupying a luxury hotel

:16:34.:16:37.

trust by occupying a luxury hotel and using public money to fund that

:16:37.:16:39.

and using public money to fund that and using public money to fund that

:16:39.:16:40.

use, do you believe that actually use, do you believe that actually

:16:40.:16:41.

use, do you believe that actually you in your government and maybe

:16:41.:16:43.

you in your government and maybe you in your government and maybe

:16:43.:16:44.

you in your government and maybe even in your own family have a

:16:44.:16:54.
:16:54.:17:30.

But you know that if you will. A But you know that if you will. A

:17:31.:17:33.

But you know that if you will. A close relative to a very senior

:17:33.:17:36.

close relative to a very senior close relative to a very senior

:17:36.:17:37.

position, people will talk. -- if position, people will talk. -- if

:17:37.:17:39.

position, people will talk. -- if you appoint a close relative. And

:17:39.:17:41.

you appoint a close relative. And you appoint a close relative. And

:17:41.:17:42.

people will make comparisons to the people will make comparisons to the

:17:42.:17:43.

people will make comparisons to the people will make comparisons to the

:17:43.:17:44.

way things work to the Ben Ali way things work to the Ben Ali

:17:44.:17:45.

way things work to the Ben Ali regime. Surely it would have been

:17:45.:17:47.

regime. Surely it would have been regime. Surely it would have been

:17:47.:17:49.

wiser, better, to keep your family wiser, better, to keep your family

:17:49.:17:59.
:17:59.:18:33.

wiser, better, to keep your family Finally, let me ask you about the

:18:34.:18:35.

Finally, let me ask you about the international context in which

:18:35.:18:37.

international context in which international context in which

:18:37.:18:37.

international context in which Tunisia must survive. I think it is

:18:37.:18:38.

Tunisia must survive. I think it is Tunisia must survive. I think it is

:18:38.:18:40.

fair to say that Western fair to say that Western

:18:40.:18:40.

fair to say that Western governments look at the Arab

:18:40.:18:42.

governments look at the Arab governments look at the Arab

:18:42.:18:42.

uprising and the revolutions and uprising and the revolutions and

:18:42.:18:44.

uprising and the revolutions and uprising and the revolutions and

:18:44.:18:45.

they are trying to figure out what they are trying to figure out what

:18:45.:18:46.

they are trying to figure out what they are trying to figure out what

:18:46.:18:47.

kind of new politics there will be kind of new politics there will be

:18:47.:18:50.

kind of new politics there will be in the Arab world and how

:18:50.:18:51.

in the Arab world and how relationships between the Western

:18:51.:18:52.

relationships between the Western relationships between the Western

:18:52.:18:53.

relationships between the Western powers and the new Arab states will

:18:53.:18:56.

powers and the new Arab states will powers and the new Arab states will

:18:56.:18:58.

powers and the new Arab states will work. Now, if you can, tell me how

:18:58.:19:02.

work. Now, if you can, tell me how work. Now, if you can, tell me how

:19:02.:19:02.

you see Tunisia's relationship with you see Tunisia's relationship with

:19:02.:19:12.
:19:12.:19:13.

you see Tunisia's relationship with you see Tunisia's relationship with

:19:13.:19:23.
:19:23.:19:36.

But in a way, you must know why But in a way, you must know why

:19:36.:19:38.

But in a way, you must know why people were suspicious, because you

:19:38.:19:39.

people were suspicious, because you people were suspicious, because you

:19:39.:19:41.

yourself in the 1990s described the yourself in the 1990s described the

:19:41.:19:42.

yourself in the 1990s described the yourself in the 1990s described the

:19:42.:19:43.

US as a crusader nation and an US as a crusader nation and an

:19:43.:19:53.
:19:53.:20:23.

enemy of Islam. Have you changed My point about the language ears an

:20:23.:20:25.

My point about the language ears an My point about the language ears an

:20:25.:20:26.

important one. In the 1990s, you important one. In the 1990s, you

:20:26.:20:27.

important one. In the 1990s, you important one. In the 1990s, you

:20:27.:20:28.

call to the US a crusader nation call to the US a crusader nation

:20:28.:20:29.

call to the US a crusader nation call to the US a crusader nation

:20:29.:20:31.

and called it an enemy of Islam. Do and called it an enemy of Islam. Do

:20:31.:20:32.

and called it an enemy of Islam. Do you regret the language that you

:20:32.:20:42.
:20:42.:20:42.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 51 seconds

:20:42.:21:29.

If that is the case, will you offer, If that is the case, will you offer,

:21:29.:21:31.

If that is the case, will you offer, for example, support and assistance

:21:31.:21:33.

for example, support and assistance for example, support and assistance

:21:33.:21:34.

to the French in operations against to the French in operations against

:21:34.:21:37.

Islamist militants in Mali? There Islamist militants in Mali? There

:21:37.:21:38.

Islamist militants in Mali? There are allegations, certainly in the

:21:38.:21:41.

are allegations, certainly in the are allegations, certainly in the

:21:41.:21:42.

French press that there are French press that there are

:21:42.:21:44.

Tunisians involved in Al-Qaeda Tunisians involved in Al-Qaeda

:21:44.:21:46.

Tunisians involved in Al-Qaeda linked to groups. We have seen

:21:46.:21:49.

linked to groups. We have seen linked to groups. We have seen

:21:49.:21:50.

Tunisians in Algeria, Syria. Will Tunisians in Algeria, Syria. Will

:21:50.:21:52.

Tunisians in Algeria, Syria. Will you co-operate with the US, the

:21:52.:21:54.

you co-operate with the US, the French, British intelligence in

:21:54.:21:55.

French, British intelligence in French, British intelligence in

:21:55.:21:57.

trying to crack down on these trying to crack down on these

:21:57.:21:58.

trying to crack down on these jihadis even if they are inside

:21:58.:22:08.
:22:08.:22:38.

One final thought. Tunisian people One final thought. Tunisian people

:22:38.:22:39.

One final thought. Tunisian people One final thought. Tunisian people

:22:39.:22:39.

hoped that their country could be a hoped that their country could be a

:22:39.:22:41.

hoped that their country could be a hoped that their country could be a

:22:41.:22:42.

model for the Arab world in terms model for the Arab world in terms

:22:42.:22:47.

of establishing freedom, democracy, of establishing freedom, democracy,

:22:47.:22:48.

prosperity. Would you acknowledge prosperity. Would you acknowledge

:22:48.:22:49.

prosperity. Would you acknowledge that it actually been harder than

:22:49.:22:52.

that it actually been harder than that it actually been harder than

:22:52.:22:53.

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