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with the late Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:06 | |
Welcome to the Miraflores presidential palace in Caracas | 0:00:09 | 0:00:14 | |
and a special edition of HARDtalk. | 0:00:14 | 0:00:17 | |
My guest is one of the most polarising leaders in | 0:00:17 | 0:00:20 | |
the world today. | 0:00:20 | 0:00:22 | |
President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela is committed to socialism | 0:00:22 | 0:00:25 | |
and the anti-imperialist struggle. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:29 | |
For decades Fidel Castro was the keeper of Latin America's | 0:00:29 | 0:00:32 | |
revolutionary flames. | 0:00:32 | 0:00:34 | |
Well, now it is Chavez. | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
But are Venezuela's people beginning to tire of their firebrand | 0:00:37 | 0:00:40 | |
President? | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
President Hugo Chavez, welcome to HARDtalk. | 0:00:59 | 0:01:03 | |
Thank you very much. | 0:01:03 | 0:01:11 | |
I want to begin by asking you about the Venezuelan economy. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:15 | |
You have a serious problem with inflation. | 0:01:15 | 0:01:20 | |
You have a currency that has been devalued and your country | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
is still in recession. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:25 | |
Is it fair to say that socialism right now is not working? | 0:01:25 | 0:01:31 | |
You had growth. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:52 | |
But now you do not have growth. | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
You're the only Latin American country that this year, | 0:01:54 | 0:01:57 | |
as well as last year, is not growing at all and is in recession. | 0:01:57 | 0:02:01 | |
Is it possible, you say it's possible, to have some form | 0:02:01 | 0:02:03 | |
Is it possible, you say it's possible, to have some form | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
of capitalism with in a socialist system. | 0:02:43 | 0:02:46 | |
Is it possible to have genuine democracy and respect for the rule | 0:02:46 | 0:02:49 | |
of law within your socialist system? | 0:02:49 | 0:03:59 | |
You are absolutely right that you have won elections, | 0:04:00 | 0:04:02 | |
and you have won them very easily. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:07 | |
But democracy is more than about just winning elections. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:09 | |
Can I put one case to you that suggests you perhaps do not adhere | 0:04:09 | 0:04:13 | |
to the wider rule of law and the independence | 0:04:13 | 0:04:15 | |
of the judiciary. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:19 | |
Let me mention the case here, a judge in Venezuela, | 0:04:19 | 0:04:22 | |
Maria Afiuni. | 0:04:22 | 0:04:24 | |
She made a decision to release a man who you regarded as... | 0:04:24 | 0:04:29 | |
As a corrupt opponent of your regime. | 0:04:29 | 0:04:33 | |
But the fact was the judge decided after two years in detention | 0:04:33 | 0:04:36 | |
she followed the law and she released him from detention. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:40 | |
You then made a speech in which you said her actions had | 0:04:40 | 0:04:45 | |
been worse than those of an assassin. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:48 | |
You demanded she be put in jail for 30 years, | 0:04:49 | 0:04:51 | |
and she is currently in a prison. | 0:04:51 | 0:04:53 | |
What does that say about your respect for the independence | 0:04:53 | 0:04:56 | |
of the judiciary? | 0:04:56 | 0:05:00 | |
But many independent observers look at what you have done, | 0:06:17 | 0:06:19 | |
in that case and others, and have concluded, and I'm quoting | 0:06:19 | 0:06:22 | |
the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, "The political | 0:06:22 | 0:06:25 | |
system in Venezuela is fundamentally undermined by the lack | 0:06:25 | 0:06:27 | |
of judicial independence." | 0:06:27 | 0:06:34 | |
But Mr President, there are many different international groups... | 0:07:04 | 0:07:06 | |
Latin American groups, who have questioned your commitment | 0:07:06 | 0:07:08 | |
to the rule of law. | 0:07:08 | 0:07:20 | |
When Human Rights Watch wrote a report about this subject | 0:07:20 | 0:07:22 | |
you threw out the two people that wrote the report. | 0:07:22 | 0:07:25 | |
It seems whenever people are critical of your record | 0:07:25 | 0:07:28 | |
you do not accept it. | 0:07:28 | 0:07:29 | |
You said that you would not listen to the Inter-American Commission | 0:07:29 | 0:07:32 | |
on Human Rights, you said they had no credibility. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:36 | |
Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, other | 0:07:36 | 0:07:39 | |
Latin American organisations have said you do not respect | 0:07:39 | 0:07:42 | |
the rule of law. | 0:07:42 | 0:07:45 | |
But when you hear the criticism you react against the critics. | 0:07:45 | 0:07:49 | |
You threw out two of the people from Human Rights Watch who wrote | 0:07:50 | 0:07:53 | |
a report about you. | 0:07:53 | 0:07:56 | |
It is difficult to have a credible opposition in this country, | 0:09:05 | 0:09:10 | |
and I'm sure you agree opposition is a big part of democracy, | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
if when an opponent becomes a very loud critic you lock them up. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:17 | |
It's very difficult then to be in opposition. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:21 | |
Yes, of course. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:32 | |
There are some people... | 0:09:32 | 0:09:39 | |
But the point is there are many people who can't insult | 0:09:40 | 0:09:45 | |
you on the TV because they're in prison. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:49 | |
For example, Raul Baduel, he used to be a very good colleague | 0:09:49 | 0:09:54 | |
of yours, he used to be your defence minister. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:56 | |
But when he became a critic of yours and joined the opposition | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
you had him locked up. | 0:09:59 | 0:10:05 | |
I know that but you only decided he was corrupt when he became | 0:10:16 | 0:10:19 | |
an opponent of yours. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:24 | |
There are many examples... | 0:11:14 | 0:11:24 | |
You say give me examples... | 0:11:24 | 0:11:35 | |
We obviously could go through every example, | 0:11:35 | 0:11:38 | |
Mr President, but one more example... | 0:11:38 | 0:11:42 | |
Let's talk about one more example, the former presidential candidate, | 0:11:42 | 0:11:45 | |
Oswaldo Alvarez Paz, you have now charged him as well. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
He is another leading opponent of yours and he is also | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
now facing charges. | 0:11:51 | 0:12:02 | |
I've been used. | 0:12:02 | 0:12:03 | |
How have I been used? | 0:12:03 | 0:12:05 | |
How have I been used? | 0:12:05 | 0:12:20 | |
I sense your frustration that you feel that you're misunderstood | 0:12:20 | 0:12:23 | |
in the world beyond Venezuela and Latin America. | 0:12:23 | 0:12:32 | |
I want to ask you about some of your international policies, | 0:12:32 | 0:12:43 | |
your policies looking outward beyond Venezuela's borders. | 0:12:43 | 0:12:45 | |
In the last decade it's fair to say you have made a lot of headlines | 0:12:45 | 0:12:49 | |
with your powerful criticism of the United States, | 0:12:49 | 0:12:51 | |
of US imperialism, and George W Bush in particular. | 0:12:51 | 0:12:53 | |
But Bush is gone, he left the picture more than a year ago. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:57 | |
President Obama is now President of the United States. | 0:12:57 | 0:12:59 | |
Do you now see a very different United States? | 0:12:59 | 0:14:07 | |
What signals do you see right now? | 0:14:09 | 0:14:11 | |
Do you see signals that would lead you to still use | 0:14:11 | 0:14:15 | |
the word 'imperialism?' | 0:14:15 | 0:14:16 | |
Do you still see imperialism coming out of Washington? | 0:14:16 | 0:14:19 | |
Are you determined to do what you can to undermine it | 0:14:19 | 0:14:22 | |
and to destroy it? | 0:14:22 | 0:14:24 | |
Can I take it from your answer that your axis of unity | 0:15:20 | 0:15:23 | |
with Iran will continue? | 0:15:23 | 0:15:27 | |
In the past, you have said that you will be with the Iranians. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:33 | |
You said that to President Ahmadinejad in 2006. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:37 | |
Do you stand by those words? | 0:15:37 | 0:15:40 | |
You have a very deep relationship with Iran. | 0:16:21 | 0:16:23 | |
Trade, military intelligence, there are many aspects | 0:16:23 | 0:16:27 | |
to the relationship. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:28 | |
Are you saying you will ignore any new sanctions? | 0:16:28 | 0:16:34 | |
Does that mean if the Iranians want to trade uranium with you, | 0:17:10 | 0:17:15 | |
you would be prepared to do that? | 0:17:15 | 0:17:21 | |
Before we finish, I want to ask you about your view of Latin America | 0:18:35 | 0:18:39 | |
and South America's future. | 0:18:39 | 0:18:41 | |
You have been a beacon and a leader for many countries in this region. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:50 | |
They have adopted many of the same socialist ideas. | 0:18:50 | 0:18:54 | |
South America is divided. | 0:18:54 | 0:18:56 | |
There are other countries, Colombia, Chile, that do not share your vision | 0:18:56 | 0:19:02 | |
of where South America should go. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:06 | |
You have talked about the Grand Union for South America. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
You have spoken about having a common currency, maybe even | 0:19:09 | 0:19:12 | |
a common government. | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
Do you believe it can happen? | 0:19:15 | 0:19:18 | |
It is not happening with Colombia. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:37 | |
Not so long ago, your troops were gathering on the border | 0:19:37 | 0:19:40 | |
as though war was a possibility. | 0:19:40 | 0:19:44 | |
A final point. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:30 | |
Many people have likened you to Fidel Castro. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:35 | |
You have now become the carrier of the torch for the socialist | 0:20:35 | 0:20:38 | |
revolution in Latin America. | 0:20:38 | 0:20:41 | |
Fidel Castro built his revolution over 40 years. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:45 | |
How long will it take you to build yours? | 0:20:45 | 0:20:49 | |
So you will definitely run again in 2012? | 0:21:45 | 0:21:51 | |
You can now, you have removed the term limits. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:53 | |
You are determined to keep running for President. | 0:21:53 | 0:21:56 | |
President Hugo Chavez, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. | 0:23:19 | 0:23:24 | |
Hello. | 0:23:49 | 0:23:50 | |
This is the shape of things to come rather than what we saw for many, | 0:23:50 | 0:23:54 | |
at least, during the course of Sunday, which was a decent enough | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
day for many. | 0:23:58 | 0:23:59 |