Pierre Krahenbuhl - Director of Operations, International Committee of the Red Cross HARDtalk


Pierre Krahenbuhl - Director of Operations, International Committee of the Red Cross

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defectors have been sent to labour camps and some were executed.

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Now on BBC News, it's time for Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen

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Sackur. The International Committee of the Red Cross is pulling some of

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its international staff out of Afghanistan following an attack on

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its Jalalabad compound. It is an unprecedented move in three decades

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of operations in Afghanistan. In Syria, Red Cross efforts to get aid

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into the besieged town of Qusair are being thwarted as fighting

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rages. My guest today is Pierre Krahenbuhl. ICRC operations

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director. Is this organisation being overwhelmed by the danger and

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Pierre Krahenbuhl, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.Does it feel

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as though the ICRC is in the firing line as ever before -- as never

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before? Reworking conflict situations and it is always

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extremely challenging to maintain activities. Things We do for people

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on a day-to-day basis on many of these conflict sones, Afghanistan,

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Congo, Syria and others, and every single day there is a lot of effort

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that goes into training the security of our staff and making

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sure we meet -- reach the people we make a difference. It seems like

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the tipping point in Afghanistan. You know Jalalabad well. Now, you,

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as director of operations, have had to respond to a murderous attack on

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your compound in that city. And you have decided to pull significant

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numbers of international staff out. Why? We have to set it in the right

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context. It's a shocking attack and we did lose one colleague. It could

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have been more. We need to take this particular event seriously. At

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the same time, we have a 30-year long commitment to Afghanistan and

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its people and this has taken forms of medical activities, huge numbers

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of activities in terms of physical rehabilitation, and the Tees,

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people who have lost their limbs as a result of mine accidents,

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visiting prisons. -- and the keys. That is not something we will give

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up easily. Over 30 years, what sort of signal to the defence to the

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people of Afghanistan, particularly in the context of coalition,

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Western forces, leaving this year and next year, to be out by 2014,

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what sort of signal are you sending to the Afghan people now with this

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pullback decision? Festival, we are suspending activities until we have

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a better understanding of what happened. Few people may be

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withdrawn temporarily but there's no decision whatsoever on the

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future. Our commitment is to continue working there. We will

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look for a way to continue serving the Afghan people. It should not be

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misunderstood for leaving Afghanistan and giving up on our

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commitments. We owe it to our staff to take the right decisions, in

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terms of security. But the work, that is a commitment, will continue.

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Do you feel a terrible burden when you get the news that there has

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been an attack, one of the staff is dead, and in this case it was a

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local member of staff? In the end, the buck stops with you. I wonder

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how you cope with the responsibility. It is probably the

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heaviest part of the role that I have, with the overview of our

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activities worldwide. Every single day, every single hour of the day,

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an ICRC team together, sometimes with partners in the Red Cross

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societies, is somewhere in the world in harm's way. In all the

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activities in Syria at the moment, many of the danger it -- areas are

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dangers, certainly Somalia, my own experiences in Afghanistan and

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Bosnia. It is one of the most serious responsibilities, to ensure

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that when we send staff somewhere, we have invested in terms of the

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networks, the understanding for the role of the ICRC, a non-political

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role to generate the necessary trust. I come back to the notion of

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a tipping point. The Red Cross has been going, I think 150 years this

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year you are marking it, and I wonder whether ever before in the

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history of your organisation you have operated in a context where,

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for example, in the recent past we have seen relief and aid workers in

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countries such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria as well, being

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assassinated simply because they were trying to deliver vaccinations

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to poor people who desperately needed them. That is the context in

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which the Red Cross asked to work today. The context you have never

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actually had to cope with in that way before? I think there is a

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paradox. On the one hand, I sincerely can say that today we

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have a better reach in many parts of the world than we ever had

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before. There is more members of ICRC present around the world than

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ever before. -- there are more. more are being injured and dying

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than ever before. But in overall terms, the worst year we ever had

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in terms of loss of life is 1996. The very serious attacks in

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Chechnya and the windier. It is true that every single year we face

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the risk. -- volunteer. But there is perhaps more of the element of

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targeting. Perhaps being at the wrong time in the wrong place,

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maybe an incident that was very unfortunate. This element of

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targeting, which appeared in the incident in Jalalabad, is one we

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have to take very seriously. Again, mindful of the history of your

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organisation, you are intimately tied with the notion of certain

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rules that govern warfare, the Geneva conventions. In essence, you

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are seeing as one of the organisation's key to monitoring

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the way in which conflict and warfare is conducted. It seems to

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me in so many of the conflicts we see today, which are often internal,

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within states, not necessarily involving front lines, armies,

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uniformed personnel, much more diffused and complex than that,

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they are the traditional assumptions made by people like you

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at the Red Cross headquarters no longer apply? One thing you can be

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sure about when you turn 150 is you know that you constantly have to

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revisit the assumptions that you were quick and actually when we

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talk about the Geneva conventions, adopted in 1949, or when they talk

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about the ways in which we worked in the post-cold-war environment,

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where it was more about a mix of grievances. Very fragmented from

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the 50 armed groups we deal within the eastern DRC or the many

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different factions the find across Syria today. People you are having

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to deal with, negotiate with, to try to reach what you need

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humanitarian wise, these are not symmetries doing any conventions,

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not people who have made commitment to abide by any particular laws of

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war at all. That is one of the challenges, when they are so

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fragmented and diverse, how can you make sure that the role you have is

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understood? This is something I remember from a few years ago. A

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number they are the group said it took them four years to get used to

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last there. Every time you talk about neutrality, your independence,

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we look at the list of donors and wondered how it worked. My

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experiences, where I have worked myself in Bosnia or Peru,

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Afghanistan, also what I see in teams around the world today, is

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you can only convince and create trust by making sure that what you

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do is quality and that to make a difference for people. It is work

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over a long period of time that convinces people. And it does not

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always work, does it? You just used a key word. Neutrality underpins

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what the ICRC is all about but I would put it to you that in a

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conflict like the current conflict in Syria, the notion of your even-

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handedness, your eye to neutrality, can't work because the fact is you

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can only do what you do with the authorisation, the say so, of the

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airside government in Damascus. Therefore, you are seeing by those

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who live in rebel-held areas, the rebel fighters themselves, as an

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organisation that is in hock to the sad regime. -- President Assad

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government. There's no doubt I -- the ICRC negotiates in order to

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reach populations and people that need help. But you do not go out to

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the Syrian opposition held areas, as you could, through borders,

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without you could do that but you choose not to. Over the last four

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weeks, we had a team permanently held in Aleppo. One of the city's

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most effective and very seriously affected. We have now spent four

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weeks there every morning. We have gone across the lines into

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opposition held areas and we have provided medical assistance. That

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is how we build our way. Patiently on the ground. Building relations,

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focusing on needs and actually reaching them. It is making a

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difference. We have progressed significantly in Syria. You say

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that but the fact is, you at the ICRC have to work in conjunction

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with the local Red Cross, Red Crescent, organisations inside

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Syria. We know the Red Crescent has faced huge amounts of pressure from

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the Damascus government. Key officials we in the Red Crescent

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have been detained for long periods. We have had reports of at least 12

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Red Crescent volunteers killed since the conflict began. People

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say there is a concerted effort to intimidated. That is the reality.

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There are always pressures at very senior level scholar from political

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levels and on military terms. Every group would like to serve its own

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side. But it is not possible to be fully impartial, as the conflict

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has suggested. It deserves a lot of credit for what it has achieved. It

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has thousands of volunteers. That is in every single district of the

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country. It is in contact with very different sides. The role of the

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ICRC is also to support that role. We are open for a critical review

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but it is true that they deserve a lot of credit. Is the wider war

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historical truth the lesson of the Red Cross's history? I am

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particularly thinking of the experience in the Second World War

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and the crushing failure of the ICRC to speak out against what the

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Nazis did. Is that not a lesson that tells us more, rather than

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this notion of the iron rule of neutrality? World War II is a very

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big topic and it is true that even today we continue to try to draw

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lessons from the mistakes that were made at the time. But nobody

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warning the ICRC was born neutral. We all have our hearts in the right

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place. When we come and we see a particular result of a gruesome

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attack and the impact of people on the ground, our very first instinct

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is to call a press conference and announce what we have seen. But the

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thing about our way of working is that we know that the next day we

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must return to that place of detention to try to continue to

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monitor conditions of detainees. It is one of the most enduring

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dilemmas of the ICRC and every staff member, to find a balance

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between what we do say publicly, because we do speak out, and how do

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we preserve the trust and understanding of the parties in

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order to preserve the possibility to help you will completely. But

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sometimes going back in and thinking about the next thing, the

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desire to work with the perpetrators of the evil that you

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want to denounce, it simply serves to buttress the position of those

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people who have done with good things, does it not? E is a form of

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acknowledgement. It is absolutely true that that is

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right. -- it's a form. We are not naive about the fact that there

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will be those who try to manipulate the role of the ICRC. But added

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element is over time and we do not take no for an answer easily. --

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our development. We persist and that leads to results. Let us not

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just stick to lessons learned from the 1930s and 1940s and the

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Holocaust and the ICRC's mistakes, let's talk about more recent events.

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In this studio, we spoke to the Dutch journalist not long ago who

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has written extensively about what she sees as the fundamental flaws

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in the notion of neutral, in partial aid delivery. Perky

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instance his 1994, will wonder, and the fact that international aid

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organisations ended up offering safe haven, shelter and long-term

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:15:11.:15:16.

support to the genocide perpetrators. -- Rwanda. Hutu

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 90 seconds

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killers were sheltered by aid There are things that we do not do

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in order to be avoiding being And there are so much money in this

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relief. In a sense, they need to have a crisis to respond to to

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raise the money. She would Guards it now as almost self perpetuating.

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-- she regards it. I'd look at what we are dealing within Syria and in

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northern Mali when the country was split in half and under control of

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radical opposition groups. We were very much alone. There was no

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caravan there. There was no gap. Huge gaps. One of the things that I

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think is the most important is the importance of returning to more

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active management in political terms. The reasons why concerts

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last for so long, and I can confirm that with t?I ? that with t

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Afghanistan and Congo, the scene to be so difficult to end Millett

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Adderley or resolved politically. The political management in this

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day and age is to do with missing links in the system which create

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the dynamic of long-term assistance. That has to be looked at very

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carefully. Another political question is one that the

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International Red Cross has not engaged with but perhaps you should.

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Looking at the way the Geneva Convention is used today. There are

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so many challenges. The way the American administrations since 9/11

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has interpreted its legal right to conduct mil?I ? conduct milration

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would call it acts of war, against terrorist targets around the world.

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The just had an interview with the State Department former lawyer

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saying that we regard this as being internationally sanctioned under

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the rules of government warfare. I am talking about drone strings. Is

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that how you see it? -- drone strikes. There were challenges.

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People said the Geneva Convention was outdated. Up people said it

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needed to be devised. We said that we should take care what is

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generated. There is the legacy of World War II. That was the

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consensus that emerged from the biggest calamity mankind ever

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inflicted on itself. Of course we need to reinforce the lot. You talk

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about drones. Drones are not in themselves an instrument or a

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weapon of war that is illegal under international law. It is how they

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the battlefield, say in Afghanistan or Yeoman... Yemen is not a

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Pakistan. Hundreds and hundreds of people had been killed including,

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according to a Washington think- tank, more than 300 civilians

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killed in a US don't strike. Does the International Committee of the

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Red Cross not have a duty, when you talk about the duty to sometimes

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break your own rules and speak out, have a duty to express your opinion

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about how this squares with the international rules that govern

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conflict and war? We have just put out a series of public points on

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the use of drones. That is where I was making this distinction. We do

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not agree on the notion that there is one Global World Wide

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battlefield on which people can be targeted under the laws of war at

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any time throughout the year. We had to take a complex view what the

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legal framework is that applies to the use of drones. The final

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thought is an important one. It is about your relation with the

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International Criminal Court. We have characterised you as wanting

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to defend the basic standards and conventions that governed conflict.

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When you're opera pits on the ground come up whether it is Sri

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Lanka, 2008, Syria, today, we ever it is, then you see the worst

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abuses of the rules of conflict and war fare, is there not a long-term

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duty on your people to give their testimony, to bear witness before

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the International Criminal Court. It is clear that the role of the

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criminal court is very important in terms of fighting impunity. That is

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a role that we support very clearly. What we will not do, the line we

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will not cross, is to provide testimony or elements that we have

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seen on the ground or observations by our own staff. From the moment

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that I have been sitting with you, if you were a commander somewhere,

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if that person thought we were having a conversation that seeks to

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define the control or the behaviour of his people towards detainees,

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the bond they thought that this exchange could be part of a

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criminal proceeding, that would end the possibility for us to help.

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the argument about making rules without exceptions? Going back to

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the Nat says. What about an individual responsible for mass

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killing today. You're seeing your people will not testify under any

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circumstances? From World War II, it was less that the committee at

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the time chose not to speak out that the fact that they did not

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send someone to tell the German authorities at the time but they

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had learned. It takes a great deal of the zillions and courage to go

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and sit down, as I have done and others have done, with people who

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are in charge and have the fate of populations and their hands and

:23:53.:23:57.

tried to influence the decisions they have. This is not about

:23:57.:24:04.

arrogance. This is about a deep- seated belief. It is backed up with

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