Elif Shafak - Author HARDtalk

collapse of the bank. Now it is time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. In recent years, Turkey has been seen as a

bulwark of stability and democracy in a neighbourhood disfigured by

political turmoil and communal conflict. But now, Turkey is

wrestling with its own demons. Mass protests against the alleged

authoritarianism of the Erdogan Government, have prompted a harsh

police response. My guest today is leading Turkish writer and

political activist Elif Shafak. What is Turkey's spasm of unrest

Elif Shafak, welcome to HARDtalk. Found you. The clashes in and

around Taksim Square continued and in other parts of Turkey, we are

seeing confrontation between protesters and police. What do you

think is movement in Turkey is all about? I am very well -- very

worried about what is happening in my country. People ask if it is an

Arab Spring, a Turkish bank or a Turkish summer. I think it is a

turning point for many people, not only for the government but for

civil society and the media. Everybody is learning lessons.

to characterise it as our mass protest movement because to numbers

in Taksim Square, for example, they are in the hundreds and thousands.

Maybe even 10,000 at its height. In a country of 76 million or so, with

Istanbul being such a vast city, this is not a truly mass protest,

is it? -- movement. It is not a mass movement but it is a big

movement and it will have repercussions in the long run as

well. The grouping is it started as a peaceful protest. It started to

save trees, a park. When the police and sir, when the police crackdown

was so harsh, it opened up a Pandora's box. What we see right

now his new anger and old resentment. Stifled and suppressed

resentment coming to the surface. In your fiction and in your

political commentary, you talk a lot and reflect upon the meaning of

freedom in modern terms. The protesters talk a lot about freedom

and democracy and say that in the end it is not just about the trees

and the park but that they're making a stand for freedom and

democracy. How can that we when the people in power who are making

decisions that they object to our democratically elected? There was a

very interesting piece of research conducted by one of the leading

universities in Turkey just now and they looked at the people who were

one Twitter and being actively involved in the process throughout

Turkey and more than 70 % of them, they concluded, are not affiliated

with any political parties. This is something quite new, actually. They

are so used to this duality between secularists and Islamists or the

left and the right, up from the 1970s, but this is not like that.

This is far beyond that. I think that they are right in bringing up

the word freedom. It means a lot, especially for young people. They

want to make their own decisions, basically. They want to remain as

individuals. In a democracy, you can necessarily make your own

decisions. You have to accept the collective opinion of the majority.

When Mr Erdogan, for example, when he caused the violence terrorism,

he says it appears to be a plot against democracy and his

democratically elected government, you can see for he is coming from,

can't you? We have seen that the Government, when you look at their

background, there have been different voices coming from their

party. Maybe we will hear those voices more in coming years. The

Prime Minister's answer has been harsh from the beginning. He has

not softened his attitude. At the same time, other party members have

been apologising on Twitter, including the mayor of Istanbul. He

said he was very sorry. What triggered everything was the

excessive use of force by the police. After that, everything

changed. The people who took to the streets, many of them are a

political. They are not necessarily see this side of the demonstration.

Coming back to the point about democracy, looking at social media,

phrases used by some people at Taksim Square and Gezi Park,

they're calling him a new Sultan, a dictator. This party has won three

elections. Last term with a big majority. He is the more successful

democratic politician and the history of Turkey. What right have

they got to call him as Sultan and a dictator? It is important to take

a step back and have the bigger picture. Everybody is very angry.

We are emotional people, as Turkish people. Turkish people and Kurds,

similarly. Emotions are high. That is in the government and civil

society. It does not help at all. Erdogan is a sexist politician. --

a successful politician. He has been very popular. He still has

amazing support. Turkey is criticised but we did have fair

elections. It does not fit into any other categories. It is not like

many other countries in the Middle East. It is a unique case, if I may

say. Your husband is a journalist. There has been much discussion of

freedom of expression and the degree to which there is an

authoritarian strain within his government which has curtailed free

speech and stop the media reporting fairly and freely on what is

happening right now. You are a writer, too, and right in

newspapers. What is your sense of the degree to which he media,

journalists and Turkey today, a free and able to describe what is

happening? A metaphor I like to use when I think about my country is

that back in the old Ottoman day, we had an Ottoman military band and

what they did would take two step forwards and then one step

backwards. Sometimes I think the way we democratise our country is

very similar to that. By that, a mean several positive things can

happen in Turkey exactly at the same time is very negative things

are taking place. That makes it very confusing. When it comes to

freedom of speech, freedom of press, unfortunately this Government has

not fulfilled lot of promises which has ended up disappointing many

liberals who had supported the Government. Today, the diversity in

the media, the written and visual media, is more limited than it used

to be. Do you care love what you write -- do you tailor what you

write in the knowledge that if you go too far you could land yourself

in deep trouble? It is not exactly like that. There is a certain

amount of self-censorship and things that are difficult to talk

about. Do you self censored?It is a question that ask myself and my

novels. By that, I do not necessarily mean political taboos.

Sexual taboos are more difficult to question in Turkey than political

taboos because they are widely shared by people on all sides of

the ideological spectrum. But it comes to other issues, it can be

similar. -- gender issues. Self- censorship is a fascinating subject

that is very relevant to Turkey today. I am aware that you yourself,

after the publication of for a few novels and 2006, you faced a very

real legal problems. Under the infamous Article 301 of the Turkish

constitution, the one that makes illegal insulting Turkish miss, you

were prosecuted. You were charged. The entire experience was so real.

It was sad and Seville at the same time. These were words from a

fictional character that were plucked out of context and used to

prove that I had been insulting Turkey. Article 301 is problematic.

It is open to interpretation. What is interesting and confusing is

that it came from civil society. They said the writing insulted

Turkish identity. Over time, what the Government did was not

abolished the article, which was do right thing to do, but to change,

to make it more difficult to people. It is still there. That seems to

make a very important point. The article in question, 301, was not

in his first design, coming from the Islamist side of Turkish

politics. It came from the nationalist side. As I understand

it, when the charges against you were ultimately drop, Prime

Minister Erdogan express great pleasure and great sympathy with

you. Is that not another sign that in this current stand-off in Turkey,

Erdogan is being perhaps Ms characterised? We have to look at

the situation beyond black and white to try to understand both

Erdogan and the political party and political movement. If this is the

voice of the periphery coming to the centre, and it has been issued

shift in Turkey, what I find troublesome is a tendency of

authoritarianism repeating itself. The previous elite, the Republican

elite, was also very authoritarian in the sense that they wanted to

shake the society top down. We see similar attendances again. That was

the old National Republican elite that was the architect of the deep

state which has been such a real and difficult phenomenon in terms

of the Turkish finding their freedom. It was not the Islamists.

It is tricky. I don't want to use the word is a must because I think

it Bullers more than it explains, to be honest. We have to remember

that this is a ten-year government. They have been in power for a very

long time. There have been shifts in the rules and in the way that

they ruled. At the beginning, there was more optimism. I remember one

of the speeches that the Prime Minister gave and it was quite

hopeful. It gave people a lot of A Usain he has abandoned that?

you look at the De schools, he relies more heavily on the 50% that

voted for him. -- the discourse. A bunch of people who come from all

different backgrounds feel alienated, distant and be the talk.

There is resistance coming from that side. Let me read you words of

a fellow writer, come whom the EU know well, and who has spent his

life thinking about where Turkey is going. -- Orhan Pamuk. With the

rise of the Islamist movement it is the revenge of the poor against the

educated Westernised Turks and the consumer society life. Is there

something in there? A polarisation of those in Taksim Square today and

those living in the countryside who are not perhaps as well educated or

poor and look at what is happening in Istanbul and cannot identify

with the protesters? We have to remember that three-quarters of

Turkey's population live in towns and cities. Although the rural

Auvergne a distinction is clear, nevertheless, there are many more

people in the city. -- urban and rural distinction. It is full of

contrasts and conflicts. What I find more difficult in Turkey today

and in all my fiction and non- fiction, I tried to be an

individual in taking to remain one. Unfortunate, it is a very polarised

society. It is a very politicised society. For instance, to give you

an example, I have defended the rights of college students 17 or 18

years old to keep their heads covered - which used to be illegal.

Because it is not fair and someone who cares for gender issues, I do

not find it fair. This is the only way they can go into the public

space. Not for children but if they are adults and can make their

individual choices and they want to cover their heads, I am fine with

that. I also want to say no, when a catch a some way, for instance,

when they raised an announcement warning passengers not to kiss in

public. I also want to criticise that. It is important for me to

remain an individual and criticise the mistakes made on both sides.

is not easy. A couple brief answers, please, on key social issues.

Alcohol is one. A lot of people in Istanbul, some of whom are

protesting against Recep Tayyip Erdogan, are furious because they

have stopped the sale of alcohol during certain hours. To many

others it seems feasible. Why has become such a hot issue in

Istanbul? I know you want a short answers but it is difficult to

answer in a sure way. People do not trust. We always have a conspiracy

theories. Basically people are worried that their lifestyles will

be changed. That fear is very real. Were the mistake of the government

is is not to understand or try to understand that fear. What about -

he talked about gender issue - here is an important one. Whether you

believe prime minister mack mack has the right and he has exercised

that, to call for Turkish women first of all to see it as a

national duty to have three children or more but also he is

adamant that abortion is wrong and has made very loud calls for

Turkish women not to have abortions - indeed not even have caesarean

births. Is that something we think he is adopting an authoritarian

strain of government? I have been very vocal about this. I have

written extensively in Turkey as well. I find abortion - when they

wanted to change the implementation, I found it very problematic study

cannot Sheraton the queued for legal abortion in a country --

shorten the period. Weather is so much rate and violence and incest.

Women who have money will go abroad, when women with poor or no money,

will raise the lives to go to doctors. I'm glad the Government

did not go ahead with that but I found it from making that they

wanted to limit that he read for abortion. Women should be able to

make that choice and we have to remember that no woman would make

that choice lightly. Is it not worth remembering that, first of

all, compared with all your Muslim neighbours in that Meir and Middle

East, Turkish women have extraordinary levels of a freedom

and Turkish women play a prominent role in business, politics and all

aspect of public life. But the AK- part a KP party has lifted women's

position out of poverty into a new era of prosperity? You a very

bright. Absolutely. If you compare it Turkey with its neighbouring

countries, definitely, Turkish and Kurdish women are very active in

many fields of life. When you look at advertisements, media, academia,

medicine - in all these fields women a vocal and visible. However,

there is one field in which women are almost non-existence and that

is politics. On a local, regional and national level, we cannot see

politics. The few women who are they have to the feminise

themselves in order to exist strongly in that space. That needs

to change. In that sense politicians have been very

reluctant to introduce positive context for women. The second thing

is the language of politics in Turkey is very muscular and a very

aggressive. -- it has all been about Turkey's identity and future.

I remember being in Brussels, some eight years ago when Turkey's

official negotiations began with the European Union for membership.

The path to accession. Here we are, eight years on, and no-one believes

any time soon Turkey has a realistic chance of getting inside

the European Union. Do you, as a Turk, who strongly identify as with

Europe and even have a home in London, do you feel let down by the

European Union? I am a sad that a very odd that -- that very

important socle moments of these mist. Some French politicians have

been very antagonistic. In the long run, they could not see that there

was no good at English in Turkey in the other direction. Because we are

very emotional people, will if Europe does not want us, we do not

want Europe. That's right. Look at the polls - only 70% of Turks think

that Turkey will in a realistic time-frame become a member of the

EU and the majority believes it should abandon its bid. Pushing

taking in a different direction. That is true that until very

recently, three years ago, those polls would show a completely

different result. The belief and faith was so high when you look at

the media, when you talk to people. These things can change. But he not

think and I do not see it as internal. It might change depending

on emotions, development. The question we need to ask ourselves

is - do we want a European Union that is composed of very similar

identities - very monolithic in itself or is coexistent around shed

should -- shared values is more important? In the long run, for

Europe and for the world as well, in a world we have so many people

believing in a clash of civilisations, you might come up

with a different model. You might but it is fair to say that right

now, EU member states looking what is happening at Taksim Square - the

police and protesters and dashing lumps out of each other - they are

hardly going to be more inclined to hasten the membership into the EU.

We see a pulverise, fragmented Turkey right now. Had as a get be

on this stage? It has to get be on this stage because this

polarisation is not good. Not for my country, not for the future

generations and I think the only way to do that is personal to

recognise the diversity, the pluralistic society. If I may put

it this way, we are the grandchildren of a multi- ethnic,

malty lingual and pyre. The overarching discourse was that we

are a minority Society of undifferentiated individuals. The

irony is that in these days we are questioning this and discourse. We

are starting to say, we are all different and yet at the same time