Tim Soutphommasane - Political Philosopher HARDtalk

One of the ironies of the so-called crisis of capitalism and over the

past five years is that moderate left-of-centre parties, those

critical of unregulated capitalism, have often not prospered. Opinion

polls suggested Germany and Australia are about to do the same.

A left-wing parties losing elections because they leave the

picture it isn't and nationalism to the right? Might yesterday may have

some of the answers. The political philosopher Tim Soutphommasane has

instructed people on how to embrace take it isn't. But what would that

Tim Soutphommasane, welcome to HARDtalk. What do you mean a better

club win Peter it isn't? Picture it isn't means a lot of country. But a

lot of people think of something that is very aggressive and aimed

at keeping other people had. Something that is about superiority.

You do not need to look at quotations very far. You see

quotations like Samuel Johnson about it being the last refuge of

the scoundrel. Albert Einstein talked about picture it isn't being

the measles of mankind. The kind of love of country that I advocate and

an believe is worth celebrating is about improving your country. You

want to contribute to tradition. Sometimes that means being critical

of what your country does. When is it left version of picture it isn't,

it is that critical temper and ability to criticise her citizens.

I know that it is not the same as nationalism. But both words to

people on the left of politics tend to make them squirm a bit. They

think that nationalism causes wars. There is a long history of

internationalism on the political left. The difference between

patriotism and nationalism is one that is debated constantly. When I

think that pay true to some, it is something that is about belonging

to the nation state. At least for the time being. In the future, the

nation-state may come to an end. But for the time being, we are

governed by nation states. So you could not be a European

nationalist? You can be a German nationalist or Scottish nationalist,

but not European? Precisely. You may have a blonde to Europe, but in

the common parlance, we are talking about national identities. There

are those who say that that devotion to a flank, and then, ban,

so fierce that it engenders mass- murderer, it is one of the great

evils. He says that people on the left tend not to like it. There are

no shortage of examples of national pride turning into these. But

that's all the more reason that those on the moderate and left to

take it very seriously. I speak about my experience in Australia.

We have seen a rise of a certain form of nationalism during the past

15 years that has excluded many who do not look or feel spirit

typically Australian. The criminal law right happened into 1005.

Cronulla riot. -- 2005. My argument is that if you do not speak the

language of Page it isn't, it is more difficult to achieve a more

moderate position. These things can become the preserve of those of the

right. But how do you do at? These people tend to support

nationalistic policies. That is not necessarily true. When you look at

how Australians celebrate Australia Day, when you go to an event on

26th January, you'll find people embracing the Australian flag. They

are not explicitly Anglo Australians. By two felt

uncomfortable with that. Yes. There are many angles to patriotism.

There is a moderate side to it. A lot of people do not recognise that

it need not mean an aggressive love of country. It can be a more

generous, more inclusive. A German American politician in the 19th

century was criticised by his colleagues and the American Senate

for being a traitor to America because of his identity. He said,

my country, right or wrong. He said my country, right a wrong, it right

to be kept right, if wrong, to be set for it. Let us talk about you.

You her from a family from Mells and China. You grew up in France.

grew up in Austria. -- Australia. I grew up there. I was effectively an

adopted son of Sidney. That is not to say that a always felt

Australian. There were periods of my time growing up in Australia

that I felt quite alienated by nationalism. The moment when he

started thinking about all of this when I was a schoolboy. We took a

treatise and pretty seriously. -- Patriot ism. I remember that it was

Anzac Day. The equivalent of Remembrance Day or slur. There was

a fellow students who said that we remember the places made by a

afford this so that we could enjoy the Australian way of life and are

democratic values. But my forebears would not have been on that site.

They would have been people fighting because they wanted to

keep my forebears at. I came to ask myself, what does it mean to be

Australian. I came to believe it is about belonging to a national

tradition. It is not about ancestry, Lynn Hinch were blurred. If you

belong to a country, benefited from the national tradition. But it can

be that ancestry and blood as well. You can be hyphenated an Australian,

should you choose. But you choose to be an Australian Australian.

quite. I am stealing, but I have Chinese heritage. -- Australian. I

do not necessarily have an objection to a hyphenated and

identity. It is often insufficient of people who say that they are

Italian, Greek, were Chinese. Those are not assertions about their

identity. It is given it a pity to run the way that they feel

Australian. But you reject the idea of passports. In my own personal

life, I have not decided to apply for a French citizenship. I do not

have a connection to that country. I belong here. I grew up in

Australia. In terms of my heritage, I duly Brits since of profit into

my parents are from. There is no- one typical we have had you can be

Australian, British or American. But you to share a certain common

set of values. Let us talk about that kind of thought process being

useful to politicians. You have been described as Ed Miliband's

group. What is your relationship with the Labour Party? How far are

your ideas feeding into the way that they think about immigration

and integration? I had an interesting dialogue with the

British Labour Party as they cut the process underway. There have

been many people who have come to Britain to participate in the

policy review. But the interest in my work has been this challenge of

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 70 seconds

We have to ask what the country means today. Who can belong. On

that front, with those questions, Britain came forward. Do you agree

with Ed Miliband's basic point that we got it wrong. Labour must change

its approach to immigration. We too easily assume that those who worry

about immigration are stuck in the past. Do you agree with that?

is a lot of truth in it. There are in lot of people who dismiss

concerns about social change, economic restructuring, as

xenophobia or bigotry. It is always a lot more complex than at.

Immigration works best when you have public acceptance of the

programme. And when the terms of integration are explained very

clearly to the population at large. These are arguably things that were

not done well and off by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. But it is not

just explaining. It is the fact on the ground. It is wonderful to see

Mo Farah winning Olympic gold. But at the same time, when you walk in

a certain street orator to an area, you feel that you are not welcome

here. It is not just about presenting. That is correct. The

sentiment that does exist in those neighbourhoods, they are confronted

with new rivals were undergoing dramatic change. It is this

presents that they do not belong. People do not feel like they know

this place that they were born in. What are they going to do about

that? Most people do want to get along together, but they do feel a

bit swamped sometimes. These things take time. Quite often they are

about the turn of the debate. Sitting the right ethos. It is not

about clicking his fingers were pulling a policy beeper. It is not

going to be that easy. Integration and acceptance of difference can

take time. I think of the experience in Australia and the

concerns about Asian immigration. These days, there is an brace of

Asian migration. -- embrace. I grew up in a place called Cabramatta. It

was regarded as an ethnic ghetto. When you go to Sydney, you pick up

a brochure, it advertises it as a tourist destination. That is

suddenly in 20 years. Not every place will undergo this journey or

transformation. That is the Part of that bargain is that they

have to do their bit as well. In other words, David Cameron said a

couple of years ago, if you come to Britain you have to accept freedom

of speech, freedom of worship, democracy, the rule of law, equal

rights. That may seem self-evident to you and to many of the people

watching, but what do you do about the people who are already here who

say they do much except that? In fact, they are prepared to blow up

people in the Underground because they don't accept that. These are

people who are born here. It is a very serious challenge. There is no

doubt in my mind there has to be some sort of common ground for

everyone to belong in a country. Civic values are very important. A

commitment to democracy, free speech. If there are communities

that are not embracing a creed like this or any thoughts, then

governments and societies have to think harder about how you can

persuade them to embrace the values of the community. I am a big fan of

the civic education and I believe that those in schools need to be

taught about these values and traditions. The tart necessarily

translated organically, especially if you're talking about the

children of immigrants from countries that don't have

established traditions. -- these aren't. It partly deals with the

people already here. What about the ones who might want to come here

and still do not accept this? Should there be some basic tests?

You don't speak English, you did it in. You don't agree with the basic

tenets of Australia nor English wife, then you don't give in.

has to be a line drawn somewhere. I'm a firm believer that if you are

going to offer citizenship to those who arrive in your country, it is

perfectly acceptable and appropriate for you to administer

tests before people are granted citizenship. These tests may not

need to test one's knowledge of the diminishing of the British history

or test someone's knowledge of Donald Bradman's batting average in

the case of Australia, but it is important that they know there is a

dark and -- a democracy, they know there are elections and they know

it is not acceptable to treat bait -- treat people differently on the

basis of their religion or sex. Many people agree with what you say,

but I am trying to think in practical terms for a politician of

the left, the people you support, what can they do with that? How is

it translated into practical politics? You have to be on the

ground. You have to make sure there are communities, wherever there are

new settlements, with leaders that there is a social contract and a

bargain. That involves hard work. That involves time on the ground.

It all comes back to having a national conversation that isn't

afraid of talking about civic values. Those on the left quite

often believe that talking about civic values is just come at --

some kind of code for something uglier. If you talk about British

values or Australian values or liberal democracies, then that is a

way for you to communicate to others that you really are talking

about something else. That is sheepish nurse and it isn't

justified at all. David Cameron, for example, says we have even

tolerated the segregated communities behaving in ways that

run completely counter to our values. He accepts the problem. You

are suggesting that Labour accept the problem. I still don't quite

see how they are actually going to grapple with it, if you have these

problem areas. Part of the problem might be when you look at the

practical s?I ? practical sare very low key and they are not ever

going to win headlines in newspapers all be the subject of

exposes on current affairs programmes. They are quite banal,

mundane things. They aren't about making sure people can settle well

when they arrived as immigrants, good English classes. All the

nitty-gritty things that aren't very attractive, but a very

important as to how a new communities can be welcomed and

make the journey to integration. Let me compare the experience of

Australia with some other countries. I think Australia's

multiculturalism has -- has succeeded because it has been

muscular. Those who arrive are given English classes, are directed

to migrant resource centres where they can understand how to And roll

their children in schools or understand what to do to get a

Medicare card. But is not necessarily happening here.

should be. These are the practical steps that need to happen. They are

not spectacular, but they are very important. If you take us on to

talking about Australian politics. What on earth is going on in your

country? Does the Labor party have a death wish? Getting rid of Julia

Gillard, bringing Kevin Rudd back. This is not business as usual in

Australia. These are very extraordinary circumstances. Even

for a country that is known for its brutal partisan politics. What we

have had since 2010 is something we haven't really seen before, which

is sitting Prime Minister has been replaced by their own parties

because they are not doing well in opinion polls. I think the Labor

party in Australia is going to experience some very long-term

difficulties as a result of this because it is easy to conclude,

watching things on Forder the moment, that the party stands for

nothing except a winning elections. You could say that for politicians

Outterside Australia as well. Isn't part of it straight for the sexism?

Julia Gillard replaced by a guy after some pretty nasty sexist

comments. I want to go back to how people fit into society. The slight

majority in Australia, as in this country, are women. Perhaps they

are treated very different week in both countries. Sexism has been a

part of Julia Gillard's problems as prime minister. I wouldn't reduce

it just to sexism alone, though. I think the manner in which she came

to become Prime Minister was very problematic for her. She that

didn't enjoy the kind of legitimacy that most other prime ministers

enjoy. Don't forget you're talking about a minority government during

the Gillard prime ministership. A very volatile environment where you

had an opposition leader, Tony Abbott, who was able to conduct a

very negative politics. That combination of things made it very

difficult for her, even though she had a lot of legislative

achievements to her name. I wonder whether... Uluru in the ideas

business, which is what attracts you to talk to political leaders. -

- you are in. You think most people looking at politics think it is

about ideas and ideals? They think it is quite a nasty game by

political elites in which nature -- pay chitosan is one of the ways to

keep clubs in their place. Politics is not ever going to be an easy

ride. I can only speak of the Australian electorate with great

intimacy. The Australian voter knows quite well it is an ugly

business. They also expect their politicians to give uplifting

speeches while also wielding bloody knives. There is, I think, an

appetite in Australia for serious policy debate. We just haven't had

it for a number of years now for all sorts of reasons. One can only

hope that this will be a transitory phenomenon, rather than a long-term

decline in representative democracy. Throughout this conversation today,

I detect a long Bain of optimism from ute, but I am wondering

whether the optimism about communities getting on with each

other, but patriotism, is really appropriate to very hard times when

because of the economic situation all of the world we tend to see

various rivalries between communities and countries? That is

precisely the time you have to be optimistic and have to be

idealistic. It is very easy in these times to think that things

will fall apart and it will be a freefall and we would ascend to a

state of nature with a war against all. In those kinds of settings,