Dr. Omar Zakhilwal - Minister of Finance, Afghanistan HARDtalk


Dr. Omar Zakhilwal - Minister of Finance, Afghanistan

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candidates. Now on BBC News it's time for Hardtalk. International

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forces are pulling out of Afghanistan and much of the support

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will dry up with its huge natural resource is worth $1 trillion. It's

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one of the most corrupt countries in the world. I guessed is in carpel,

:00:30.:00:37.

the Finance Minister. He has publicly accused the MPs of

:00:38.:00:41.

corruption and had to defend himself against the charges. There's money

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to be made but will be Afghanistan people see this? Welcome to the

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show. How much do you think Afghanistan will suffer, the economy

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will suffer, when the international forces leave? There is commit by the

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international community for the long-term support from the

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international community providing development assistance and forces

:01:28.:01:34.

and the impact should not be that great, but the impact and the

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concerns and fears that are generated by the negative publicity

:01:38.:01:48.
:01:48.:01:54.

with respect to that. The security forces. Just sentiment you are

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saying but what are the effects? We are hearing the sounds of building

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and thunder but there's been some affect people changing business

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plans. Is already evidence the economy and the property market and

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supermarkets and people losing their jobs with the power to buy. It has,

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it's the fear and the concerns. That's why we need to go against the

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negative publicity. It has really affected the mindset of the people

:02:25.:02:33.

here and the traders and investors. It's unjustified? It's not fault of

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the assessments to us. It's fear. Fear that we need to go against

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that. Louise Hancock says people are fed up with Afghanistan feeling they

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have not got value for what they have put in. As a result of

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corruption, a result of what has happened here, there's a feeling

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that an awful lot of aid is going in and people will perhaps give up?

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Afghanistan has come a long way. Look at the indicators, healthcare,

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look at education. From a few will hundreds out and men to now millions

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:03:29.:03:31.

of students in the school 's. The GDP is up to about $700. That's all

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dependent upon aid about 90% of the national budget. It's the

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effectiveness of it. To keep that aid you need to prove you are doing

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something about corruption. Absolutely. You shocked and

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delighted people when you named six MPs in Parliament who you said were

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corrupt. They all deny it but give us an example of the things you

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spoke about? Smuggling, for example. You talk of MPs calling you

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up allowing illegal vehicles into the country? They have said that

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actually you are just accusing them because they tried to impeach you. I

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have submitted my evidence to the Attorney General and he says they

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should resent themselves for investigation and now they are

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resisting and they need to clear their names. I was accused. I went

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to the Attorney General and asked him to investigate me and I was

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cleared. You have not produced evidence and you will make it

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public? I don't have too. The investigation and the power of

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investigation. You will provide evidence? I have. They are

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investigating. Why only those six, because everyone says it's far more

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wides read. You picked those six who went after you. I had evidence

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against the six and I cannot give you a figure but anyone else with

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evidence should come forward. They talk about regions. Some of them had

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served in important positions and I have the evidence. You sat in the

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Finance Ministry and there was Customs under that and one imagines

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an awful lot of those deals and illegal corruption was going on. You

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could, surely, have got to the bottom of it going public, not just

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about MPs but against some of the very powerful people in the country,

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former warlords who sit in senior positions? I have taken action. In

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Customs, the biggest number of people who have been fired and

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replaced, they were primarily from customs. Three months ago I replaced

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every direct in the customs. Will you say that any time you come

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across anything that is corrupt? Absolutely. We will explain as a big

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thunderstorm going on here. It's usually far hotter here. We are

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talking about the trouble within the political class. A US official

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quoted in the New York Times said Afghanistan is the United States. Is

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he right? The big contracts, certainly, they are open to

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corruption. Contracts we have nothing to do with. People who make

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hundreds of millions of dollars here and don't pay tax. There are

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contractors who have violated us and have been involved with smuggling.

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Here, lots of money comes through. 20% is taken up coming through the

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budget from the Government and 80% is spent. That's the problem. That's

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also because people don't trust it going through the Government and

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non-government sources may have their problems. Absolutely. When

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there is money in the system countries like E and a stone --

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Afghanistan, you cannot say you don't trust the budget. Actually, to

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use a phrase, the fish rots from the head. The leadership in Afghanistan

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needs to tackle this and it is not. We have, we have. Not compared to

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where we stand. Some of the key indicators. The open budget index,

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where the fourth most transparent with a score of 56 to 59. Four years

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ago it was down to it eight. The president is doing all he can? We

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can certainly do more but on the whole. Could the president do more?

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He certainly could do more but he's look at one of the sources and

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contributing to the corruption here of opium. This country could not

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survive without it could it? It can, it can, and we need to get to the

:08:54.:09:04.
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bottom of this question. In the name of fighting drugs, we have seen not

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much of that but who is spending it in what ways? The livelihoods that

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was promoted stop. These are mostly led by UN organisations. I've seen

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the situation in Helmand province which constitutes nifty % of the OPM

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from Afghanistan. They have managed to reduce it a bit that they still

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talk about three quarters of the level from peak in 2006. Ten years

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ago, 26 provinces were producing opium but today it's only a handful

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of provinces producing. When you are out they provide alternatives the

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suggestion is that they cannot do anything until the central

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government goes after those at the top, those making the money. That

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people at the top are not here stop its the international media. It's in

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Central Asia, Russia, Europe. It's the Mafia in Europe. You are saying

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the opium from the UK where a lot of it goes, if the UK sorted out the

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drug problem Afghanistan would have no problem? If you can't deal with

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there, we will have established institutions, sophisticated

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systems. Here, this country has institutions and security in most

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places where opium is produced. There are individuals here making

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millions. There are also in Europe. The government should go after them

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and that's not happening. I think you need to do your research to go

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out there to see how many people are behind bars because of it. Yesterday

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and today in Customs we arrested two people smuggling heroin and they are

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in prison today. If the international community over the

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past 12 years was unable to deal with opium, what hope is there that

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the national government would be able to cope with it after 2014? It

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will expand, isn't it Western up with opium, if there is no

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international response it would be simultaneous and the demand and

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supply and that is not much hope. You make it sound like the opium

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problem in Afghanistan is down to the outsiders. Stop we do supply but

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I told you we do have security in place. For example, we are affected

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in some places. Places with no security are at risk. Will

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Afghanistan lose any aid if it does not tackle this problem? It should

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not, it is an international problem. Let's turn to what could be

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the salvation for Afghanistan, everyone points to this, the huge

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natural resources here. Mining, oil, the geological survey did an

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assessment saying it's probably worth $3 trillion. Possibly more.

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How much do you think? I think it's much better than that. Bigger than

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$3 trillion. There's been a few deals struck with Chinese companies

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and others. There's been an accusation that there's been very

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little transparency. It's a game, the whole neighbourhood with

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transparency we have a very transparent system in place. We are

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close to being a member of one of those organisations. How can

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Afghanistan benefit? Some countries have been cursed by the unnatural

:13:26.:13:36.
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resources. Transparency, transparency, transparency. What

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needed to be done is done. We are more transparent today than we were

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last year. Certainly more than a couple of years ago. We are created

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to be more transparent in every contract, every contract has been

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public on websites. Even a member of. Is Afghanistan getting a good

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deal out of deals it has struck already? Absolutely. We have

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international adviser is, we have oversight, we had used reviews and

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it is the best we can do. What should Afghanistan get out of it? In

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some places there is no infrastructure, there is no

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security. Is the price effectively the reward for Afghanistan that

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roads are built. But actually, a lot has to go out of the country but

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what you get in return is infrastructure, rail lines, roads.

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Again, in central Afghanistan, for example, a Canadian company won the

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bid and it is a really landlocked area. They have a royalty rate of

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8%, I believe. It works really well with international royalty rates.

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How much better can be get on that? We have a commitment from these

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companies to build the infrastructure and connect

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Afghanistan to the region. It is the icing on the top. When will

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Afghanistan realise the benefit of that? We don't have infrastructure

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in place, with silver security concerns. It will start slowly. --

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we still have security concerns. We believe that by 2016 or 2017 we will

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start having better revenue. It will pick up and eventually this will be

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better. What percentage of the economy is this going to be? Revenue

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wise, we believe that it will eventually be 14 to 15% of the

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revenue. If you want this level of support from mining and oil, if

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Afghanistan is to realise its potential, it needs a strong leader.

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Otherwise talking about $1 trillion is a whole farce according to this.

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I just mention the numbers, I don't have to repeat them. But if somebody

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comes here to strike a deal with a mining concession, they will have to

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pay bribes. They absolutely have not. Look at the Chinese case. They

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have bribes. Look at the Indian case. But can you guarantee this? An

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international company wanting to come here to invest, it will not

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have to pay bribes to do business in Afghanistan? Absolutely. Absolutely

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not. They should come and see. you really believe that? Absolutely.

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Absolutely. And in the process of everyday life in Afghanistan? That

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is another thing. It is not just the top level. The process of everyday

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life seems to depend on protection money... We have for example,

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services and the municipality, no doubt about it. With the police.

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what is said to individuals? Do you say, don't pay? How do you deal with

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that? What I advocate is to be proactive. Believe in the punishment

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in response to corruption. If you have not put enough people behind

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bars who are not fighting corruption. I say, come and invest.

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You are already giving us money. Let's reform these institutions.

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Vehicle registration. The same money that could be spent on bribes has

:18:31.:18:41.
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other uses. I say, help us, so that instead of three, it can be...

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if you want something done, passport, visa, they can't tell you

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when to get it back, so you pay. Absolutely. We need money for the

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system, we need investment. But use a punishment, people don't pay the

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police can end up in prison. I am not saying that they should not be

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law-enforcement or punishment for corruption. What am saying is that

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we could reduce 60 to 70% of the corruption by streamlining

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procedures. Investment is required. In some places we have already done

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that. Customs is one of those examples. You need to wean yourself

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off international aid. The Financial Times reported that the head of one

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foreign agency here just a few months ago said, need has been a

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curse. The reason he gave us that exports dry up as there are more

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rewards in going into business to support the donors than trying to

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export pomegranates. Really?It has been a curse. Each creates

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dependency and that is what we continuously pressure at the donor

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is to spend over -- to spend the aid in such a way that it is not create

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dependency, that it supports growth in Afghanistan. He said that the

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fears of what will happen after 2013 justified. What do you base that

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on? When you see growth coming from? Afghanistan has a three G

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network over three quarters of the country. Telecoms is a big thing.

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But whether you see growth coming from? Import substitution,

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consumption, construction. Housing. We need housing. We need a precious

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section, some of the best food, you must have seen it. Vegetables.

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International markets. But it cost four times as much to export

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something from you to the United States as it does to Pakistan.

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don't need to get our food from the United States. It is not even in

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Europe. We need that. We need trade. And of course the mining state

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sector. More than 2/3 of this country are under 25. The huge

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amount of young people who are now educated but won't necessarily have

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jobs. And the security challenge. You have disaffected youth who

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cannot get jobs. It is a challenge. As the Minister of Finance, within

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the government, my plea is that we focus spending on three things.

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Sustainable economic growth, job creation and revenue generation so

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that we become self-sufficient. you are confident in the next few

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years in Afghanistan that you can economically stable your own two

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feet? The roadmap that we have is by 2025. If, indeed, we spend in this

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focused way, the commitments of the international community. And of

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course the security, particularly for the private sector, that is

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