Paul Kenny - General Secretary, GMB Union HARDtalk


Paul Kenny - General Secretary, GMB Union

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Russian authorities that Mr Snowden should be returned to America to

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face trial for leaking national secrets. He has been stranded in

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:00:14.:00:18.

Moscow for more than three weeks. Welcome to HARDtalk. Britain's Labor

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Party was created from the trade unions and still gets most of its

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money from them. Its leader Ed Miliband, a man who owns his job to

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the union, was to sever those ties. My guest is the creator of different

:00:37.:00:41.

leader of the GMB. What would a change meant for the Labor Party,

:00:41.:00:46.

the unions, and working class is back working class representation in

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:00:56.:01:19.

Welcome to the top. Is it time for unions to change their relationship

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with labour? I think what Ed Miliband has said is what many

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people have been thinking for some time. It has not been working

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particularly well for the prospect of four trade unions and their

:01:33.:01:42.

members. Yes. People need to understand the unions origins in the

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birth of the party came about right about 1900. Most of the unions were

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craft -based organisations. The mass of the country were not in unions.

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There came a thing called new Unionism. That meant ordinary

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workers, doctors, or very workers formed unions. There was no

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representation in the work less and no political voice. At the time it

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was a 2-party state. The Liberals and the Conservatives. Stop me if

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this sounds familiar. You are talking about 110 years ago. I am.

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But it is important to know why those routes were created. Working

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people did not have a voice in Parliament. Unions took an approach

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at the time they believed in democracy and believes that working

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people should have that reputation. Hence the of the Labour Party.

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is a reputation that has evolved in the decades since. Unite union was

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kicked -- accused of signing up their members to be local party

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members without their knowledge, paying the Jews for them, -- and

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use, so that they could elect the local campaign to try campaign in

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the area. A lot of people say that this is evidence against them. Do

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you think what they did was wrong? have not seen the report. And

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virtually nobody has yet. There is a multiple speccie mission. If the

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rules were broken, the rules exist. If people are signed up without

:03:30.:03:36.

their permission and that would be wrong. It was a tiny party. The idea

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of a union sitting in London, effectively getting people to sign

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up with their knowledge, it was a party with a hundred getting another

:03:48.:03:52.

hundred or might you would be able to manipulate the selection of the

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candidate. It is exactly what to talk about. Getting working-class

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people to get representation. joined schemes have been around for

:04:04.:04:11.

years. The problem with unions, including my own, have tried just

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about everything you can possibly imagine. Conferences, newsletters,

:04:14.:04:20.

you name it. The union joined scheme actually means the member can join

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the party, and that fee for the first year is paid by the union.

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That is absolutely legitimate. We have knocked down in -- we have not

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been knocked down in a rush for people to use that opportunity.

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Independent targeting, which is what it sounds like, that is not the way

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to do it. What you want is to encourage more people to be active

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in the party from the trade unions. Are the unions interested in getting

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more people with work life experience into Westminster?

:04:51.:04:57.

Absolutely. Do we have a vested interest? Absolutely. We would never

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hide that. Of course we are. The truth of that is, the Labour Party,

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has been on representative of working people. That is why it lost

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5 million votes. They did not disappear. They did not will die.

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They stop understanding what the basic issues were of many working

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:05:28.:05:31.

people. . So the problem was with the party? Not at the unions?

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have been quite loyally turning up at party conferences, supporting the

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leadership, in many years delivering the money and the vote is, working

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hard at election time, and in return, some of the key issues and

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some of the big albums we are now facing, issues like social housing,

:05:48.:05:53.

have just been felt to be addressed. I don't think it is the unions.

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saying you are foolish of these years were doing that? I think you

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come to a point where you do not think you are going to change the

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current system. In 1997, the country was so desperate for change, they

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really were. I think the mistake that some of the new Labour people

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made was that they think they had swept them into power but they had

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really swept the government out. They looked worn out. They looked a

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bit seedy. And each collection from there, from 1997 to 2010, the truth

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of the matter was that labour lost more and more votes. Many people who

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were traditional voters did not vote any more. They were switched off by

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the politics. I think it's because they failed to address the key

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issues. In the last three years, 81% of labours funding has come from the

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unions. Was that a waste of money? It was not a waste of money. Around

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the country, there are a lot of efforts that go on a different

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areas. A lot of good local politicians do things. What did you

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get your money? That is a very good question. I would have to say that

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there were times when I could not have given you an answer. What I got

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was a lot of aggravation Folau people saying why you continuing to

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support the party went they are not continuing to support us. Many

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people in the workplace offer from bullying, harassment and fear. We

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still have issues with people who support trade unions are

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blacklisted. People trying to organise health and safety on

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construction sites are blacklisted. You would expect that that would be

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an absolute number one issue. But no one should be persecuted for wanting

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to protect safety issues. At times it felt like people were embarrassed

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about us. We felt like we were the elderly relative who with a little

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bit of incontinence or something. We were seen as old-fashioned. We were

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played down. We were never played down when it came time for

:08:05.:08:10.

elections. They did not want to see is that the party, we were not ever

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invited to the celebrations. We were certainly always required to deliver

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finance and organisation. Bring us up to date. When we had Ed Miliband

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saying it is time for a change and I am going to propose, and what he

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came up with was this idea, instead of you decided that if we give money

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to the Labor Party it would happen automatically, anybody who signed up

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your union would have to vote for your affiliation fee and possibly

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also as one union does, your political fund fee, to go to the

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Labour Party. He is saying that they have to opt in to that rather than

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being opting out. Not to listening to you, you are so hacked off with

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the party, you're not going to send any of your money there. I later

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tell you what I think it is saying. have closer ties with him that I

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have. This is what I understood him to say. And I'm not disagreeing with

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it. I think its time has come. Someone who joins GMB, they do not

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have to join a political fund. We have a political fund. You do not

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have to join a political fund, you can opt out. And lots of people do.

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Many people, 150,000 in our union, . Out of 600,000. 80,000 people

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dropped out of the political fund entirely. Another hundred and 40,000

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say that we understand that the union needs a political fund. We

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understand you need to campaign for workers rights. You need a political

:09:53.:10:00.

fund. But we do not want any money to go to Labour Party. How many opt

:10:00.:10:10.
:10:10.:10:11.

out of that? I'd say on hundred and 40,000. They pay that out of the

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affiliation from. We only affiliate to the party 410,000 out of a

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600,000. The total you give to the party is �200 million. You have said

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that 90% of that would go as a result of the changes that Ed

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Miliband has proposed. So that's 2 million would drop two, 20,000 that

:10:36.:10:46.
:10:46.:10:51.

we're talking. It could be 10%. Ed said that he does not want anybody

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who -- it is not when the money from people who doesn't vote. So that

:10:56.:11:00.

would just become part of the political fund. It would not be

:11:00.:11:08.

donated to the Labour Party. They would see that we -- they would say

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that they would have to opt in. I cannot tell you how many would do

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it. It may be 10,000, it may be 100,000. There is a big difference

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between people saying that we support the unions, but we do not

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want to be members of a party. I want to get to, for our audience

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we do not need to get into the details of our rules. That is the

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proper. People do not understand the rules. It does not sound that you

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want to convince people to signup, or whether you want to give the

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unions money to this party. It is their money, it is not my money.

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GMB union money at the moment, total �2 million, how much do you think

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should be going to the Labour Party that you think has been not do

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anything for you? I can only guess from the basis of people who opt in,

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:12:13.:12:16.

200,000, 250,000. That is all I can say. So 200,000 from 2 million.They

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have to make the transition from supporting to be members. What

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happens to the relationship between you and the party? You almost sound

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that this has been a long time coming. It almost makes it sound

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like this is a split that needed to happen. I would not say it is a

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split would set is a different way to doing business will stop you will

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be continuing to do business with concussion at as long as the party

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is coming forward with progressive issues. Have they been until now? It

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has been patchy. It took a long time to get the minimum wage, which every

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opposition outtakes claim -- now lays claim to being the father. And

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what about Ed Miliband? Is the relationship with him over? This is

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a media myth. The Labor Party election for leader is split into an

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electoral college. 250 MPs have 1/3 of the vote. 250. And they voted for

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his brother. We are talking about the cognitive part of the college.

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Party members, 250,000 of them, they also had 1/3. 2.5 million also had

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:13:53.:13:58.

1/3. 250 MPs equals 250... Parliamentary MPs voted for David.

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This is supposed to be our talk. will not accept that it was the

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union votes that put Ed Miliband into the leadership of the Labor

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Party. If less party members had voted for him, he would not have

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won. If less MPs had voted for him he would not have won. Not every

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trade union supported Ed Miliband. What will happen with Ed Miliband?

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Many people in the situation will not believe it was effectively the

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union vote because of the way it went. You don't want to listen to

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the fact... Some unions campaigned and voted for and to their moments

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-- said to their members to vote for David. When you look at how many of

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the union vote supported Ed Miliband, that is what gave him the

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push ahead. He secured a big victory. What happened to your

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relationship with Ed Miliband? happens now? I think he's a decent

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man. Don't think he is antiunion. he worth giving money to?

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members will have to make that choice. That is what he has said.

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What will you advise them? I'm not quite sure what you meant. Will you

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say that you urge them to sign up? We will not say that. What will you

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say? We will say this is the position, if you wish to support the

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Labor Party, you have to opt in to become an associate member of the

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:15:50.:15:52.

Labour Party. You would be recommending they don't do it?

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started off by saying the relationship is not working. It is

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an individual choice. This idea that some union general secretary says to

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vote for one particular person, this is insulting to our members. Believe

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me they are more than capable of making up their own mind. Where we

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are at the moment, you will know that Bob Crow of the RMT has said,

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actually, this isn't working any more. It is almost time to start

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setting up our own party. That all the parties look the same now. This

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particular political party wants to go down the same fiscal route as the

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Tories and the Liberal Democrats. He cannot see any difference between

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the three political parties. There is no voice for working people any

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more. He says it is time to do with the unions did 120 years ago.

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Firstly, his union is not an affiliate to the Labour Party. He

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has held that view for a long time. They are not part of the Labour

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Party and are not affiliated. They have been organising alternative

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political campaigns around Europe and elsewhere. They have have no

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impact that I have noticed. We do listen to him, he is unimportant.

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They are your words. I think he's a very nice guy and has done a great

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job for union. But what he says there's no relevance? He is

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questioning the general perception that everybody is unhappy with the

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Labour Party. It is up to the party to bring back -- win back millions

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of working boats. They have two. If they don't, what happens? They won't

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win the election. They can't win an election as millions of people start

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voting for them. How much of that is down to money they get from unions?

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At the moment the money is vitally important because it balance out --

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balances out the money the Conservatives get from big business.

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If the union money is lost, then ensure Ed Miliband can make it up

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from elsewhere, but then we will have two major political parties

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funded by business. He's going to lose that money as things stand?

:18:15.:18:25.
:18:25.:18:30.

criteria he set, if I have understood it right, he doesn't want

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any money from any trade union member who hasn't voted... Rather

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than going around that again, from what you are saying he has a

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potential problem if he doesn't get as much money. I think the exchanges

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at prime ministers question Time would indicate it won't be this

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Parliament. What will it mean for the unions, then? The unions will

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have to sharpen up their game. They will have to start focusing on key

:19:01.:19:06.

issues and switching public opinion. They will have to bring in pressure

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on a whole range of politicians. Issues that affect the public. I

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judge things about whether the public want more privatisation or

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not. I don't think they do. I doubt whether the House of Commons as it

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is currently constituted would vote to set up the NHS. I doubt that.

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are you going to continue to have any influence? You will have as much

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money as you have before. We will have more. And you can use it in a

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different way. We will use it in a political campaign way.

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individual MPs of any party? union will say we support the Labour

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Party. Until that is changed, that is what we will do. Will you change

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the rules? It may happen next year. If I sat here now and told you our

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conference... Would you like to change the rules? I think it is

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inevitable that there would be a strong pull. There will be less

:20:08.:20:12.

opportunity to resist it. And it will be a call for what? Think it

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will call for the union to be not affiliated with any political party.

:20:16.:20:22.

Then you are free to spend your money on individual MPs? Effectively

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we will be free to do that from early next year. Do you think you

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will be more powerful as a result? It is not about being more powerful.

:20:32.:20:37.

Able to influence? Is that getting social change. We stand for it

:20:37.:20:44.

social change. Do you think you will be more effective? We stand for the

:20:44.:20:47.

collective good. Hopefully we will be more effective. I think people

:20:47.:20:52.

have become embarrassed by a link to a trade unions. That is a

:20:52.:20:56.

disappointment to me. I expect the Conservatives to attack us. It is

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just good ground. I don't expect Labour Party MPs to. Do you think

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this is dog whistle politics? Is -- it is not a phrase I am using.

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Others have used it. Some have described it as a battle. I don't

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think if they were sitting there and accusing me -- I don't think they

:21:23.:21:26.

are sitting there and accusing me. Do you think it is deliberately

:21:26.:21:34.

chosen as a battle? I think force on. For Ed Miliband.I think he is a

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very decent bloke. I think inside he is trying to do the best as he sees

:21:41.:21:45.

it. I don't doubt there are people in the party who have not recovered

:21:45.:21:52.

at the country rejected their party. They have forgotten the way that

:21:52.:21:59.

Labour became an almost unelectable brand. The new party field that

:21:59.:22:04.

fully. It looked very electable. Come 2010 it had gone. The House of

:22:04.:22:06.

Commons, the Labour Party and House of Commons, is completely

:22:06.:22:11.

unrepresented. It is full of political advisers. It is full of

:22:11.:22:19.

lawyers. You will know that some would say, where you read is back to

:22:19.:22:28.

political oblivion. Where I live? Whether unions. Ed Miliband has made

:22:28.:22:32.

an announcement about how he wants to fund the party. If the unions had

:22:32.:22:37.

said we are going to cut our affiliations by 90%, everyone would

:22:37.:22:39.

have said you are trying to blackmail the party. That is what

:22:39.:22:43.

they would have said. They would have said they we were holding a

:22:43.:22:46.

financial gun over the head of the to get what we want. We have never

:22:46.:22:52.

done that. Is Ed Miliband gets the changes where he -- that he wants,

:22:52.:22:55.

where you have an opt in system and you are able to get your members to

:22:55.:23:01.

opt in, what would be the effect? Literally hundreds of thousands of

:23:01.:23:05.

trade union members, many of them activists, workplace organisers,

:23:05.:23:11.

would become active in local labour parties. If there is some few were

:23:11.:23:14.

about Falkirk and a relatively handful of people join a party

:23:14.:23:22.

that, but it would be like a Vickers tea party. It would turn the Labour

:23:22.:23:26.

Party into one that you would laugh, but one not -- not one that Ed

:23:26.:23:30.

Miliband would. Yeo I think people think trade unions are robots and do

:23:30.:23:39.

what we say. Is not true. Is 250,000 trade union members, stewards,

:23:39.:23:44.

activists, joined the Labour Party, then I think it would transform the

:23:44.:23:47.

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