Ngugi Wa Thiong'o - Author HARDtalk


Ngugi Wa Thiong'o - Author

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uprising began in 2011. Those are the latest headlines. Now it is time

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for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. My guess today is one of Africa's

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greatest living writers, tipped to win the Nobel Prize for literature.

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He decided he is ago not to write novels in English, Art in Gikuyu,

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his mother tongue. Or the one has written -- Ngugi Wa Thiong'o has

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written extraordinary memoirs. Have South Africans forgotten the

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struggles that brought independence? Has that independence been a

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disappointment? -- Young Africans. Ngugi Wa Thiong'o, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Thank you. One of your volumes of memoirs opens with you as

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a small boy, returning home from school. The village had been

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destroyed. Your mother and family were moved into protection by the

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British. It is a stark moment to open your memoirs. How much to you

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still remember that the moment? Yes. In my latest memoir. That

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moment is very strong in me. Sometimes, when I read from the

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memoir, a particular section, I feel a bit emotional. But it theory -- my

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eyes are the field. The emotion comes back, unexpectedly. -- my eyes

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are filled with tears. It was from 1955 -- the emotion comes back.

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Discovered in my novels, there is this idea of return and to the

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disappointment that might come with the unexpected happening. The theme

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of return is there. In all my novels. I did not know but its roots

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were in that experience. It is interesting you say that, because

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you have been in exile from your native country for 30 years. I

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wondered in terms of the destruction that was done in Candia -- Kenya in

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the 50s. The Mau Mau uprising. The British said we would finally paid

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reparations to some victims. What do you think about that? The British

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litter relief destroyed our whole culture, our tradition. Our lives

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were turned upside down. That image of desolation, returning home after

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being away for three months. To the place you are born -- you were born.

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You don't see anybody. Empty houses. An image of desolation. That is just

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one image of what happened in the country. The actual destruction was

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really widespread. I don't know how Europe at that. How you could ever.

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Your brother was shot, and that can never be undone. One of my brothers

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ran to the mountains, he was a guerrilla fighter. Another brother,

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a half brother, who was dead. When the British forces came, they came

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suddenly and surrounded the whole village. People say they are coming.

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They would run away. My half brother who was deaf could not hear

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anything. They shot him. What do you say to those, some historians who

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say that Mau Mau were exceptionally brutal people. They murdered their

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own as well as whites. All my writings have been against that kind

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of attitude. At some point, people must take responsibility. Even

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though it is a different generation? Yes. Nothing. Nothing. It is good.

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The only good element is an element of acknowledgement in all the

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torture. He removal. There was one guy, he used to cut off the years of

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the date and I don't know what he did with those ears. It was so

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brutal new kind of... It is quite difficult to put it into words.

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problem was that word the Mau Mau brutal, to? Of course, yes. They are

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fighting a war against an occupier. One brutality is in order to oppress

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and exploit, to dominate. The other brutality is to liberate. To get rid

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of brutal aggressors. You cannot equate the two. We don't deny that

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there are cruelties. You cannot say the cruelty of the guy who is a

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pressing is the same as those who are saying, don't sit on my back.

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Through your work, there is a fascinating conflict between the way

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you view the British as oppressors, and to the way in which you went to

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a British school, which you clearly, which clearly helped you.

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Reading Shakespeare, for example. It liberated you. You are both

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oppressed and the liberated by the British. We are talking about a

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colonial system. We are talking about people being against a system

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that oppressors. The colonial state, by any definition,

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particularly a colonial settler state, is in a pressing state. For

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one thing, this state means that you come and take away land that belongs

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to the natives. Even at the start of your memoir, you talk about

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depending on whether you were a black African, or white, you went to

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a different toilet. A different world. It is an apartheid system.

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Toilets for Africans, Asians only. The point you are getting out, you

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talk about Shakespeare -- characters becoming the and daily friends. You

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like some bits of British culture, but you loathe that it's...

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cultures, African, Asian, European. There are positive elements. There

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are democratic and humanist elements in every culture. In every culture,

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including British culture, they are elements that are operative and

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backward. You cannot condemn a whole culture, to say there is nothing to

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learn from say, African culture, English culture. They all offer

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something to learn. Shakespeare is very interesting, because

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Shakespeare was a safe subject. There is nothing more British than

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Shakespeare. You read his work. You read the struggle for power.

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Macbeth, it is very brutal. They kill their guests at night. They

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want power. The historic place. Take any play by Shakespeare, and what is

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interesting is not the athletic -- ascetic, it is the struggle for

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power. He wrote a very eloquently that the bullet was the means of

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physical subjugation, language is the means of spiritual subs --

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subjugation. It is part of the journey of your life, to write not

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in English, are to write in Gikuyu. Why did you take that decision?

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Because language is so basic to any community. What I found is

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interesting. What ever -- we never want people colonise another, they

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always impose their language. took the decision while you were in

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prison, ironically, after the colonial powers had left. It was a

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Kenyan who put you in prison because you were aged dangerous writer.

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point of language is that after some time, you become a part of their

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metaphysical empire. In Empire of the mind. The mind, language, that

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is central to the idea of a physical empire. The way I look at it is

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this. If all languages for me are a wonderful human achievement, they

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are wonderful languages. But at Rotherham has been in a system of

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impression -- problem has been. Some languages say we are better than

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others. We are better than that language, it that culture. Not just

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better, higher. It is in terms of the high rocky of power and the

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relationship between languages. -- relationship of power. I wonder if,

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as you know, a great African writer took a different approach. He

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suggested that it was not the case that you put. But also, a younger

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Nigerian writer says that English is my language. She has taken over

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English. I wonder if your use of this world of that time, of the 50s

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and 60s. Younger African writers take a different view. English not

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-- English is not an African language,. . We have genuine African

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languages. He is a quote. English is mine, I have taken ownership of

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English. She has decolonised us all. No. She is still colonised? Claiming

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something is colonising it. That does not mean that what she does

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with English is wonderful. I have no doubt... We should not perceive it

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as that. When we do that we are contributing to the expansion and

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deepening of the English language. You translate your own works into

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English. Isn't that contributing to colonisation? No, because

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translation is a very important process, look at the contribution of

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translations to the rise of literatures and languages. From

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Latin. Early on, translation was very important to the rise of

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European languages. Even Shakespeare would not have happened without the

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context of translation. But Gikuyu, for all its importance and strength,

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means you have a very limited market of people who will ever read your

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work. But if you translate into English, you will get a greater

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audience. That is a fallacy. Everyone says if you write in

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English... You can write in saloon and the work can be translated into

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English, into French and so on. -- you can write in Zulu. My question

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is, can anybody else imagine French literature in Zulu? Where someone

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says, oh, this is French literature, but really, it is written in Zulu?

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Do you know what is happening right now? There are so many prizes right

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now given in African literature. But you know the condition? Written in

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English. We will promote African literature on the condition that you

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do not use an African language. This is crazy. Can you imagine English

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literature in Chinese? We are promoting English literature but it

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must be right in Chinese? But I can think off Robbie Burns he writes an

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old Scottish, which nobody reads. Let us move on to Kenyan and how you

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think of the country 's top do you think after all of these struggles,

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the struggles that your family went through and so on, the country is a

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disappointment? Not really. The way I look at it is, look at where

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Kenyan, where Africa has come from, really. And the depths from which we

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have come. If you think how much Africa, the entire human bodies of

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Africa, has contributed to the making of the old European cities

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and so on, it is incredible we are even where we are. So, it is not

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really... A disappointment in that respect. Achieving independence is

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very important. However, problems are still there. The question of

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empowering the people was always the question in the colonial struggles.

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It is still a question today. into personalities in this as well?

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It is not just great historical events, you have Mandela in South

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Africa as opposed to Robert Mugabe will stop that is, there are

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different leaders who have set a very different time and that has

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been a problem for Kenyan. Nelson Mandela, he is very about

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simplicity. You feel his power and so on. We are good allies, we're

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great in one way. These people, these leaders, have been extremely

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important. But we have also had dictators. And one thing that is

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important about dictatorship in Africa, in tenure in particular, is

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that it is something we do not want to admit. Many of these

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dictatorships were actually supported by the West. There comes a

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point where you have to take part in your own problems. Where you have to

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say, for example, Rick Kenyatta, he is facing charges of human rights

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abuses -- Uhuru Kenyatta. He is a very rich man who has inherited a

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lot of wealth. Is that the future for Africa? There is the question of

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us taking responsibility. And Africa taking responsibility for

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everything, including the minerals, the gold, diamonds, zinc, copper,

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oil... Everything that is now controlled by Western interest is in

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Africa. I would like to see and Africa that. -- and Africa that

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takes control of that. But you have to understand, African lives are not

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dispensable. When it comes to the question of Kenyatta, -- Kenya, I

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completely oppose people in Kenya not taking responsibility for the

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violence. But look at the ICC. It has done more harm to the cause of

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justice. The International Criminal Court? Really? Because they keep

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focusing on Africa. And the Africa. You do not live in Africa. You have

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been in exile for 30 years. Could you go back? When you returned 30

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years ago, you were brutally attacked and so was your wife. Could

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you live in Kenya now is Mack I could. Remembering that there are

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problems in Kenyan. We have many challenges, economic challenges,

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democratic space. We have to have that democratic space. We have to

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have a space of empowerment for regular people and so on.

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crime. Crime is a big challenge because you suffered for it.

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also, when I talk about the ICC, that does not mean that Kenya should

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not take responsibility for what happened, but what upsets me is when

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for instance, Kenyan members of Parliament, when they were asked to

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set up tribunal 's in the country, they said no, go to The Hague. The

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Kenyan parliamentarians themselves. They said go to The Hague. For the

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ICC. Yes. Now, they say imperialism. Hypocrisy. The ICC should be

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criticised. It is doing a very bad job but at the same time, we cannot

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use that as a cover to avoid our own responsibility for what we have done

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and what happens in Africa. Just a couple of minutes left. I wonder if

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you feel the current generation of young people in tenure and elsewhere

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in Africa really care much about the independence struggle. It could be

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seen as being two generations ago, nearly 60 years ago in Kenya. Do

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they care? Do they read about it in history books? Oh, I am sure that

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for many of them they care that it is not something they have

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experienced directly. They have heard from their parents. And some

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of them obviously it is remote. Just now, what they want is employment.

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They want democratic empowerment. began our conversation talking about

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you as a young boy coming home to see this scene of devastation and I

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am just wondering what that young boy would make of you now, a

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successful writer, a successful academic. What would that young boys

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think of you? I would hope... I would hope he thinks I am still a

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fighter. I am a fighter. The present situation in the world, whether

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Britain or America or elsewhere, where the gap between the poor, or

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what we call the haves and the have-nots is deepening and widening

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whether here or in Britain, America, Arabia, this is not good

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for the world. This is the basis of great instability. And then, there

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is something else that is important, I think. If you have a prosperous

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middle-class, there is development. But development whether it is

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Britain, America, Kenya, South Africa or Asia, should be measured

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not from the perspectives of those who are at the top of the mountain

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the few who are at the top of the mountain, but be measured from the

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needs and perspectives of those at the bottom of the mountain. Argue

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hopeful that could change within your lifetime? Well, the struggle

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continues. This struggle did not been yesterday -- did not begin

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yesterday. Remember Charles Dickens. Who would have ever imagined the

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