Hoshyar Zebari - Foreign Minister, Iraq HARDtalk

summer break. Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to

HARDtalk. The Iraqi Foreign Minister is here on a visit to London. He

said he wanted to rehabilitate Iraq's image after the fall of

Saddam Hussein. But now sectarian violence in Iraq is arguably worse

than ever before and is overlapping with sectarianism in neighbouring

Syria. The Shia led government in Baghdad is accused of discriminating

against the Sunni minority and of being too close to Iran. Is Iraq in

danger of once again collapsing into Most delighted to be with you.

you. How worried are you that Iraq may return to civil war? There has

been many speculations in the media. This is from people who have not

visited the country. They are jumping to these conclusions. Being

the Minister for the last ten years, the longest serving civil servants

in the country, I do not see Iraq sliding into civil war. Or even

sectarian war. Really? Have the British government raised any

concerns? They have. Iraq is facing some major security, political,

regional challenges. But the country is not going into civil war or

sectarian war. Really? April and May saw 2,500 people killed. You can get

blown up anywhere. I agree with you. Recently, there has been an increase

of violence and the number of innocent casualties by terrorist

groups. This is partly due to the failure of our security service to

provide better security for the citizens. But partly also because of

the spillover from Syria into Iraq. The continuous crisis in Syria.

are acknowledging there is a problem but it is not sectarian violence?

There are those who dispute it. It is not just commentators. There is

also the UN human rights chief, Francesco Motta. This is what he

told us. "The sectarian viciousness of the attacks are worse than the

2006 and 2007 civil war. It is becoming more sectarian. People are

being targeted as they leave their places of worship." I disagree with

the UN official. There has been an increase in the numbers, and there

has been tension between Sunnis, Kurds, Shias. But no-one is pushing

the envelope. No one is pushing things to a confrontation. The Sunni

people have been part of a demonstration but it has not led to

an open conflict. When he says is Iran is on the cusp of a civil

war... Have you spoken to him? will speak with him when I go back

to Baghdad. I will give him our point of view. Nevertheless, we

disagree with that assessment. In Iraq, there are many tribes. The

Iraqi have tested the scourges of sectarian and civil war in 2005 and

2007. There is a self restraint by the politicians, the religious

leaders... They are discouraging violence. That is why there are a

number of restraints. Economically, the country, this has not been

reported, has been doing very well. Iraq is the world's third biggest

oil producer but they cannot buy electricity for a vast number of the

population. You say that you see it as a problem of the extremists.

There are accusations that Sunni sheiks are shielding some militants.

There is a danger they may take up arms on those who attack them.

production of electricity has been increased. Just to answer that. I

agree with you. The Sunni people have grievances... About being

marginalised. The Ba'ath Party was the party of Saddam Hussein. He was

a Sunni. He favoured the Sunni people. This is happening in Libya,

this is happening in Tunisia, even in Egypt. It is not something new.

That law has been revised. The good thing about Iraq is that Iraq has

established a legal constitutional framework for addressing its

problems. It is through dialogue, and not through conflict. It is a

positive thing. Do you think so? The president sounds like he is going

for a military solution. He is not gone for a military solution. He is

always trying to find accommodation. The recent local election was an

indication of the viability of the political system. Both the Sunnis

and Shias participated. We have a general election next year, people

are anticipating that they can change their government. We do not

doubt there is a process going on. Iraq has 60% Arab Shia, 20% Arab

Sunni, and Kurds, 20%. It is a rich mosaic. The Sunni people feel

marginalised. Samia Nakhoul wrote an extensive piece. She says many

Iraqis only have one hope... That is to leave the country. There are

grievances. They need to be addressed. The government is fully

aware of those grievances. There is an ongoing dialogue between the

government, the Shias, the Sunnis. The Sunni people have been in

demonstrations. Thousands out on the streets. They say they are fed up

with second-class status. Neither the government nor they have

resorted to escalating the tension. We have talked about the Sunni

people. What about the Shia people? They have also been subjected to

horrific attacks. We hear regular occurrences of bombings. Again,

there is the fear that Shia militias, as they were involved in

the civil war, may come out again if they see themselves under attack.

Are you concerned about that? formed a militia to defend

themselves. We have a golden rule in Iraq, since 2003 onwards. Whenever

we have political unity, we have better security. When we have

political divisions amongst ourselves as politicians, it is

reflected negatively on the security. Here is Iraq's dilemma. It

has to find the balance between the two. We have a genuine political

government which is inclusive. It has to be an inclusive government in

Iraq. Since Iraq is in a transitional period, as a society,

there are diehard groups like Al Qaeda, Asa'ib Ahl al-Haq. You are

dismissing them. You say we have major concerns, we are ready for it

and we are ready to protect our people. What is going on now is what

led to the violence in 2006. mainstream Shia religious

establishments... The political leaders are not encouraging this.

These are minorities. They could destabilise the country. They could

not ignite... You do not think so? do not think so. Al Qaeda has tried

all these years to ignite a war. This is the aim. I want to ask you,

you also have the conflict in Syria. It is sectarian. You have the

Alawite Shia minority in power. We hear reports that Iraqis from the

Shia and Sunni communities are going to fight. Unfortunately, Syria has

become a battleground for jihadists. Iraq fears this will turn into a

sectarian dimension. The intervention of Hezbollah recently,

the call for Jihad by the Sunni clerics, the response by some Shia

militia also. But none of this, from the Iraqi government point of view,

means it is supported or sanctioned by the government. They are not

supported all encouraged by the government. We are for a political

solution. We are for the respect of the Syrian people. Are you neutral?

We are. We are like Geneva. You say you are neutral. The Transport

Minister has said about Iraqi Shia, he is a Shia, that they go to

Baghdad via Beirut. He says, do you want us to sit idly by when the Shia

are being attacked, while the Americans and the rest are helping

the Sunni people with weapons and money? What do you expect? He says.

Why would he make that statement? you read the entire statement, he is

not for it. The leader of Al Qaeda? When they call for the Sunni people

to go for Jihad, there would be a response from the Shia. They are

sanctioned as a response by the Iraqi government to go to Syria?

government does not encourage or support or sanction... That is

encouragement. No. I am not aware of any groups or Iraqis who have gone

with the support of the government. When the special envoy to Iraq

briefed the UN Security Council in July, he said the escalating

violence in Iraq cannot be separated from the conflict in Syria. What do

you think of the consequences? is the country that will be most

affected by the continuation of the Syria conflict. Both geographically,

socially. And geopolitically. That is why we are watching with great

concern. With a lack of international community or Security

Council action, this conflict is going to continue for some time.

think the move by the European Union to label has belies a terrorist

organisation will help that? -- Hezbollah. This has been discussed

and debated for some time. This will lead to some reaction. You think it

is negative? No. This is a decision for a Europe. They have better

intelligence to designate who commit terrorism. Especially in Europe.

That is something else. But generally, this will lead to certain

groups to escalate things. As a response. Escalate in what way?

Hezbollah is pro- Iran. The Prime Minister of Iraq is labelled as to

pro- Iran. He goes to Iran regularly. How wise is that? How

wise is that? Now there is support. Iran has influence in Iraq. He is

not Iran's man. Really? Can you say that? I can say that confidently. He

is not Iran's man. What do you say to the senior Shia politicians? Can

I tell you what he says? People might not know. He leads the

coalition in Parliament. He says that they control the political

decisions. Not to that extent. They do have influence with most of the

Iraqi political leaders and the government. The current Iraqi

government is independent. It follows its own national interest.

It wants to build good relations with Iran. Can I just pick you up?

You are foreign policy chief for Iraq. You know that Iran has been

transferring weapons to the Assad government in Damascus through Iraqi

airspace. You know the US Secretary of State said in March that Iran

were helping to sustain Bashar al-Asssad and the regime. It does

not sound like you are vetoing what Iran is doing. This has been going

on for some time. Let's be honest about it. It is for the use of Iraqi

air space. We have taken note of American and European concerns. We

have conducted a number of searches. We did not find lethal material.

can't you stop the weapons going? We have told them that we don't want

them to use their good relations with us to embarrass us.

Technically, in terms of the Iraqi air force, the defence, Iraq is not

capable of stopping this. Even to stop what happened in March,

tactically we do not have that technology. The Iraqi ambassador in

Washington told Congress what you just said, that the air defences are

too big and not integrated. Do you want this? If you had those, for the

sake of argument, would you use them against the Iranian planes? We did

protect our sovereignty against any intrusion. We will deny anybody the

use of our air space. You would like to have that? We are seeking to buy

them from the United States. We want to boost our defences. You are an

Iraqi Kurd and you know the government have been quoted as

saying in the past that if Iraq got the F-16s, they would be worried

that Baghdad might use them against the Kurds in the future. If the

Kurds are part of the decision-making, there is no way.

That is the source of the worry. Otherwise, nobody would object.

this an example to show yet again that the tensions between the Sunnis

and the Shias and the Kurds and the regional government and Baghdad, in

the old days, after the invasion, we spoke about the break-up of Iraq, is

that back on the agenda? So far nobody is embracing the idea of

dividing the country. Everybody is benefiting from the wealth of Iraq.

130 billion a year. On the increase. With the political system, this idea

has not been popular, to be honest with you. The federal system is

constitutionally ratified. Recently, the tension between the Kurds and

the government... Over the disputes with the troops? Nothing has

happened. There was a cabinet meeting. He went to Baghdad. They

were able to resolve this. When you had your constitution in 2005, the

Arabs in Iraq boycotted the system. They are looking at what you have in

the north. They will want something as autonomous as that. That idea has

been floated to create a region for the Sydney provinces. -- Sunni

provinces. There is a way for them if they want to do that. They could

follow constitutional steps to get to that. You have been Foreign

Minister for ten years. You said he would represent the people of Iraq,

not just one ethnic group. Can you say that dream has not unravelled?

When you look at that on a regular basis. I am supporting what the

constitution says about Iraq. It is a federal democratic country. That

is our philosophy. Iraq is free of sanctions, international sanctions.

In that sense, no, the foreign policy of Iraq is not ready.

said you wanted to rehabilitate the image of Iraq after the fall of

Saddam Hussein. Look at the way that Iraq is seen today. You have seen

that the violence, the national co- existence is threatened. There is

sectarianism in neighbouring Syria which is arguably abetting what is

going on in Iraq. You can't say you have succeeded. We have not

succeeded. We must do a better job in leaving behind the headlines and

the TV images about the country. If you look at the image of the whole

region, it has changed. The Arab world has changed from North Africa