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time for some HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Sarah | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
Montague. Pariah is one of the least watched artforms in the world and | :00:20. | :00:27. | |
possibly one of the most expensive. -- paparazzo. My guest today is an | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
opera superstar, Thomas Hampson. He says that the way to get people to | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
love it is too will get them to watch it and then it has the power | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
to transform. I guest today is an opera superstar, Thomas Hampson. He | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
says that the way to get people to love it is too will get them to | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
watch it and then it has the power to transform. Is he right? Can one | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
of the most elite and extensive artforms have worldwide appeal? -- | :00:44. | :00:54. | |
:00:54. | :01:01. | ||
Thomas Hampson, welcome to HARDtalk. Hello. It is hard to see opera as | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
anything but elite. He said that it should appeal to all walks of life? | :01:04. | :01:10. | |
Would you say that now? Without question or reservation. I am | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
talking about, talk about opera is where it comes from, the stories? . | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
There is no pariah. We cannot talk about opera. Are different | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
generations, languages, countries. The opera always has in common that | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
they come from historical perspectives and they come from a | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
deep desire to tell a story about how people interacted with | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
themselves. Some of the confusion about pariah the art form comes from | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
that we have way too much emphasis on plot, too much of a comparison to | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
theatre or television or sitcoms. Opera gets misunderstood because it | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
is at the laboratory of dilemmas, of people. That can only be relevant | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
always. At the moment, the only people really watching opera are the | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
richest, most well educated in the world. It is a tiny percentage of | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
the world which sees opera and perhaps understand it. Think this is | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
HARDtalk, get to push back. I am not sure that is entirely true. The | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
demographic -- demographics of an Opera audience are extraordinary. We | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
have a wide audience across the world. We are sitting in England, I | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
am an American, it is a European artforms and so on. We have to talk | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
a global perspective. There is a very large and very wide demographic | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
of the opera audience. There are more opera performances to date and | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
there were 25 years ago in sheer numbers. That is an expensive art | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
form is no question. Productions have gotten more expensive. The | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
institutions of opera houses especially European opera houses | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
where there are fixed social costs of running an institution that that | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
is a real problem and we have to get to it, no question. That it is only | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
prices are so expensive? I have been impressed with a lot of major houses | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
including the Metropolitan who had very innovative ticket restriction | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
programmes. We know a few years ago in the US that you may argue that | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
the West has it wrong that China and other countries have it right dash | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
of the National endowment of the arts had a survey that 2% went to | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
the opera in the year with the lowest level of all in arts | :03:33. | :03:40. | |
activities. Just under 0.5% had their | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
their family going to watch them perform. Similar figures in the UK | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
arts Council. Of those who go to arts presents -- events, 72% had not | :03:50. | :03:57. | |
gone to an operator that. That is astounding to me. -- opera event. | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
Even the casual entrant events are so limited. I am not saying that it | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
is a ubiquitous art form. That would be ubiquitous -- ridiculous to | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
maintain. An saying that the numbers who are still interested and | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
supportive are very lively. It is not just relegated to people with | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
more money than others. There is a demographic that I think we can | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
celebrate and focus upon. (CROSSTALK). How do you get beyond | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
that? You say that it made the more than people realise that it is still | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
tiny and redundantly older people. 2% of 300 million is not too bad. | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
They will see the relevance. How do you reach out? How do you get beyond | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
that? You say that it is relevant and has the power to transform their | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
lives are so how do you reach them? That is the question I would like to | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
focus on. That is what we would love to talk to people about, to enthuse | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
them to this magnificent art form which is as strange as it is | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
wondrous. It is his Doric lead based. There is cut -- some concept | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
that has to do with how we are as people. -- context. The late 19th | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
century is much a dialogue of morality and puritanism as we have | :05:15. | :05:25. | |
:05:25. | :05:30. | ||
today. -- historically based. (CROSSTALK). You were talking about | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
something that was written, 1857 was the first premiere of its? That is | :05:34. | :05:43. | |
around the corner. 1357 was the character. He was a course out. The | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
reason it is important because the historical context does not mean | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
that it is just a precise lifting from history -- corsair. The | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
character is a mixture of his brother as well as in himself. The | :05:57. | :06:05. | |
character of this first anointed, democratic, elected, feudal ruler | :06:05. | :06:12. | |
whose passion is to find at least a not an actual friendship with | :06:12. | :06:20. | |
enemies. It is very powerful. not accept that it is hard to get | :06:20. | :06:28. | |
to? You say that it is a great story but then you add layers of classical | :06:28. | :06:36. | |
music, in another language, and it seems so remote. Those who | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
understand it would say that it is the most amazing thing. The rest of | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
the world looks on and thinks dash it is meaningless to me. That is | :06:43. | :06:52. | |
wonderful. Is that not the power of this artform? Your perspective and | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
part of our preoccupation today is about globalisation and knowing how | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
different we are across the globe. What seems to be happening is that | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
with all the benefits of these widening perspective to the world, | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
varies in fact a kind of tribal that is coming in. -- there is. There is | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
a fear or reticence to understand something else or someone else's | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
perspective. You mention an art form or another timeframe, another | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
language... There are hundreds of thousands of different languages. | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
The arts and humanities and performing arts are at precisely the | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
place to ameliorate this sense of other. This sense of not knowing | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
what -- not wanting to know about that. If we are not curious about | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
one another and if we do not want to understand other cultures and | :07:43. | :07:50. | |
of the human story that literally becomes so -- showed it through | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
different presence of history... People are scared of globalisation, | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
scared of what they see, the Other from the other side of the world? | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
People are being scared of being grouped into something they are not. | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
They are also being scared of - human nature says not to tell me of | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
believe. There needs to be avenues so people can accept what they then | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
no. That is a larger perspective. The arts and humanities are the | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
cause towards the realisation of that narrative which is the | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
performing arts, in my opinion. It is that wonderful laboratory, that | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
place where you can learn to appreciate things which you have not | :08:34. | :08:43. | |
known before. Classical music does not hurt. In fact, the only thing | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
which seems to get caught up in this stigma of classical music is that | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
there is something going on which we do not know. I will not go there | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
because I d?I ? because I derstan have talked about informed | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
performances. By both the performer and the audience. Take it from the | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
audience's perspective - this is the idea that they have to do some | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
homework before seeing this? That is what you mean? It is a better | :09:09. | :09:16. | |
understanding? To better understand, to better appreciate - more | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
familiarity. If I go to a museum or an exhibition of Renison 's | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
paintings, I can be wondering at the close and wondering at the time | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
and, that seems to be very interesting in terms of use of light | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
and I wonder what that means - but I still love it. I have gone through | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
this wonderful exhibition. I may get an audio guide or have somebody | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
explain the iconography of what is going on there, what that will means | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
or the use of architecture that it meant something very specific in a | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
sociological sense. All the parts of the hidden language which then | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
become the narrative. That is no different than in classical music. | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
Classical music at a hard rap just because it is a more formalised or | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
structured use of tone and harmony and melody does not make it any less | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
relevant to our emotional impact of what we are hearing or why we are | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
hearing it. Very often, in every opera did you go to, there will be | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
an emotional journey in a musical language which you do not | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
understand. That is good. You would not say to somebody to not go unless | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
and what it is about. And yet you have said that Mozart should not | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
be... I am not sure that any music should be in elevator is. My point | :10:31. | :10:39. | |
is not to attack elevator music. Mozart has a place and it is not in | :10:39. | :10:49. | |
irrelevance. We are bombarded with music all the time and we become in | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
Europe to the language. Music has a language. You not being a little | :10:54. | :11:02. | |
precious it? A making a simple point with Mozart and the elevator at this | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
idea that music is best understood when you know from where it is | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
coming or when you understand the iconography of what is going on? | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
When you understand the context and the history? When you do that, it | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
becomes precious. Surely good music is good music? I agree with you. I | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
am not saying that classical music is better by any means. I do not | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
like the word precious. I think that those adjectives are unnecessary. | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
There is a context to classical music that implies form, imply a | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
structure, implies an intent to express something with a specific | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
musical language. That is not precious. That is a specific | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
context. It can be very developed. I maintain that the impetus of a | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
magnificent song, whether it is the Beatles or Mozart, comes from the | :11:49. | :11:56. | |
same place of the heart. It comes from the same place of the heart and | :11:56. | :12:02. | |
mind. This living thing said that I want to express what I feel, what I | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
remember about being alive at this moment. The context of different | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
kinds of music and historical perspectives are prisons. It is one | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
river and many many globes. From a performance point of view, the | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
performer also has to have been a cultural historian do have to | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
understand guymac they cannot just be a good actor and a thing? | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
shouldn't be enough. It can suffice but I think that informed | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
performance both from the performer and the -- and invigorating the | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
curiosity of the audience is a positive and wonderful thing. | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
think that you should know from where the plot comes. It is not | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
extraordinary to think in a language you do not speak nor is it | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
particularly a natural. You did not like me using the word precious but | :12:50. | :12:57. | |
is that one of the things they found with these surveys that people do | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
not go to all listen to operate is that there a psychological barrier. | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
The psychological barrier is that it is not for people like me. That is | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
interesting. I would say that clearly we have a mandate in the | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
classical community that fewer people next year should say that | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
next year than this year. We cannot change the world and nor do I | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
believe that all of different arts are going to be equally accessible | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
or be massively accessible to everyone. I do not think that that | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
is the point. I think that the democratic process is that they | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
should be available to those who are curious. If you want to go to opera, | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
issue should not be prohibited from going to go whether it is because a | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
social group from which you do not want to be a part or a ticket price | :13:42. | :13:50. | |
you cannot afford. One possible way to do that is via the Internet? | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
have - the foundation says the two had an website and your own at which | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
you can download and see masterclasses? You were involved in | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
the first live video streaming of classical music events on an Apple, | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
a masterclass. It was all about distant learning. I wonder - it is | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
so much of opera and you will be on stage tonight - it is about live | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
performance. What you can get a buyer a small computer screen - does | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
it really...? With all my fascination of the technological | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
world and all these wonderful programmes with which I had been | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
involved in my career and the Internet and regulate all of that - | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
it is wonderful but it is all about the live art form. There is nothing | :14:38. | :14:45. | |
more exhilarating than being in the public, either in the opera or a | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
concert hall - being there and adjusting acoustically and | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
emotionally investing yourself or opening yourself or whatever it is. | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
For me, there is nothing that replaces that. Everything that I | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
think in the technological world that we can do to either capture a | :15:00. | :15:07. | |
certain moment for some souvenir of that - that is one aspect. What I | :15:07. | :15:08. | |
find more exciting about technological development and its | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
link to distance learning is that we have the ability to turn these | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
paradigms around. Rather than asked having something in the classical | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
community - going to two people and saying look at this, we can build | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
inroads that say - if you are curious, build your own access | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
points and come and find more about the opera will put your big toe into | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
the deep water parts to see if you like it. I think that programmes | :15:37. | :15:47. | |
:15:47. | :15:48. | ||
like spot a fight... The idea that you can go onto the Internet and the | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
music that you did not know yesterday, or in preparation for a | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
concert you may or may not want to go to. It is an extremely positive | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
development. And it is not a problem if people are downloading stuff for | :16:03. | :16:12. | |
free? Not in the least. We need to make money in a different way. There | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
is no question in my mind that more music should be free. You have | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
accessibility to listen to it. Nobody should have to pay to listen | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
music. To own it, that is a different question. Those poor | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
people that are dead, most of them have no rights. The Beatles have all | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
the rights. These are different questions. I am not qualified to get | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
into that. I am determined to participate in the new dialogue of | :16:44. | :16:53. | |
accessibility and informing people what this artform is. And it is an | :16:53. | :17:00. | |
ability to transform, by which you mean what? People underestimate how | :17:00. | :17:09. | |
powerful the emotional and electoral involvement in an art form is. If | :17:09. | :17:17. | |
you do not know musical language, you take this journey. Music | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
invigorates a certain liveliness in your emotional reaction. If that is | :17:24. | :17:32. | |
accompanied with a -- knowingly participating, so that you are | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
engaging the brain and your heart in the same time, that is an exciting | :17:37. | :17:45. | |
and transforming experience. The other thing is that the magic of an | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
opera, just staying with an opera, when that happens in the theatre, | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
and I have been fortunate to be part of that a couple of times, it is | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
infinitely greater in its effect on the summation of its parts. There is | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
not one thing you can control that says, that is going to give it. | :18:08. | :18:17. | |
us look at what has changed. Is this because audiences just do not like | :18:17. | :18:27. | |
:18:27. | :18:28. | ||
the former model? Certainly as far as women are concerned. We know that | :18:28. | :18:38. | |
the likes of some reform is were told that they were too fat. -- | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
performers. There is no question that our artform is under a great | :18:44. | :18:51. | |
deal of physical pressure. -- visual. Producers are far more of | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
fixated on the visual representation of the Opera that they are | :18:55. | :19:02. | |
passionate about, against the musical necessity and singing. It | :19:02. | :19:10. | |
can be beautifully given in bodies that are not as beautiful as others. | :19:10. | :19:19. | |
I know I am being dodgy here, but I am not sure that the believability | :19:19. | :19:26. | |
factor of an opera because one tenor is thinner than the other can or, | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
but one understands it more, I do not think we need to put that as a | :19:32. | :19:39. | |
focus. I do not think we need to concentrate on that. And yet the | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
Opera movement thinks that. We are under a lot of pressure. It goes | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
back to what I have said. We are under immense visual pressure, but | :19:49. | :19:57. | |
also in the believability way. Believability is the dilemma. | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
Whether it is a Treo or an ensemble or a solo, it is always an | :20:03. | :20:09. | |
exploration of the human experience. Our opera singers under what | :20:09. | :20:16. | |
pressure? We are under a new kind of pressure. Every generation is under | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
some kind of pressure. One person you are working with at the Opera | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
house, the music director, he said that the singers are weaker in their | :20:26. | :20:35. | |
bodies or do not care. He is saying that this generation are cancelling | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
(and centre. It was not a difficult production. -- left, right and | :20:41. | :20:49. | |
centre. I understand what he was speaking about. There are is a valid | :20:49. | :20:59. | |
:20:59. | :21:02. | ||
reason for that. Any young singer is not another singer. The richer you | :21:02. | :21:09. | |
have to go through to be treated as an established artist, that process | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
is changing. It is under a lot of pressure from many different | :21:14. | :21:22. | |
reasons. But the singers are under more pressure. There is an | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
expectation from them and they possibility of them falling off the | :21:28. | :21:35. | |
ladder. A bad patch. Six months of bad singing, you are a bad patch. | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
Six months of bad singing, you are done dime. There could be reasons | :21:38. | :21:48. | |
:21:48. | :21:48. | ||
for it. Some. We stuck to -- need to get more refocused. I belong more to | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
the previous forum of things. I would rather be dead than cancelled. | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
That is a stupid thing to say, but cancelling, I could not think of it. | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
That is something else. Does that mean I would sing when I am not up | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
to my standard? There are two standards. There is a level that you | :22:12. | :22:20. | |
cannot go under. But you have to trust that there is some give and | :22:20. | :22:28. | |
take. It's very seldom reaches your own ideal, but it maintains a | :22:28. | :22:34. | |
standard that you can respect. You have to, as a singer, trust that | :22:35. | :22:42. | |
even if you feel like you have not given a good performance, you know | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
that somebody in the audience has made a great deal of effort to come | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
and see you. But at this stage in your life, does anyone come and | :22:53. | :23:02. | |
say, you need to do better. Indirectly, sure. Do you get told | :23:02. | :23:12. | |
:23:12. | :23:13. | ||
off? Hold off? Not necessarily. It is much more subtle. It is a lively | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
debate. Plenty of people do not want to hire me for some things that I | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
think I am very good at. There are other people that I'm willing to | :23:22. | :23:29. | |
give me risk and want to see me challenge myself. And for someone in | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
your position that has been in Professor Long -- opera for so long, | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
what I am wondering is that they are of when they will slip. Good for | :23:40. | :23:48. | |
you. Now I am on the couch. There must be some ways to go up than they | :23:49. | :23:57. | |
are down. One man gave a fantastic interview. He was the guy. He gave | :23:57. | :24:04. | |
the interview and said that he had this fear that somebody is going to | :24:04. | :24:12. | |
call. It is just not working out. I think all of us, anyone who spends | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
her life in the public late, but certainly a performer, must carry | :24:17. | :24:22. |