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cities are among the most violent on earth. Crime is often fuelled by | :00:16. | :00:26. | |
:00:26. | :00:35. | ||
drug use and trafficking. So why are many leaders in the region softening | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
their position on drugs? The OAS has just published a report revealing | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
drug policy. It marks a radical departure from the war on drugs | :00:41. | :00:51. | |
:00:51. | :01:24. | ||
pushed by the United States and sets America moving closer to the | :01:24. | :01:34. | |
:01:34. | :01:35. | ||
decriminalisation of drugs? It is hard to say Latin America in this | :01:35. | :01:44. | |
case. Some cities have a very high rate of crime. Some countries are | :01:44. | :01:53. | |
among the most violent in the world. But some are like European cities or | :01:53. | :02:03. | |
:02:03. | :02:05. | ||
American cities. Like Chile.Or Montevideo. You are talking about | :02:05. | :02:14. | |
Uruguay. There are different ways of looking at the problem of drugs in | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
different countries. In some countries, the violence is the | :02:19. | :02:26. | |
problem, in some countries the use is the problem. In countries in | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
which there is the most violence, it is not the countries in which people | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
use the most drugs, but the countries in which the drugs are | :02:33. | :02:42. | |
moved from one place to another. OAS, which includes Canada, the | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
United States, Latin America, you did not make policy recommendations, | :02:45. | :02:54. | |
but the decriminalisation of illicit drugs is one of the options. Tell us | :02:54. | :03:04. | |
:03:04. | :03:06. | ||
what you said. We talk about decriminalisation of the use of | :03:06. | :03:14. | |
drugs. If we agree that drug addiction is a disease, then you do | :03:14. | :03:21. | |
not treat sick people as if they were criminals. You say you have to | :03:21. | :03:31. | |
:03:31. | :03:32. | ||
treat them. Sometimes you intern them. What did you decide? No policy | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
recommendations. There has been a lot of debate. Is Latin America | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
moving closer to decriminalisation? Let me tell you why I'm asking you | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
that. The president of Guatemala has said that we should consider the | :03:49. | :03:58. | |
decriminalisation of drugs. A new approach to try to take away the | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
violent profit that comes with drugs trafficking, if the world thinks | :04:01. | :04:09. | |
that is legalisation, I will welcome it. Nobody has really spoken very | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
consistently about legalising drugs, except in some cases marijuana, | :04:12. | :04:22. | |
:04:22. | :04:28. | ||
which is already legal in some states of the United States. But not | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
a federal government policy. But in California they sell medical | :04:32. | :04:42. | |
:04:42. | :04:48. | ||
marijuana. They will give you a dose very easily. In Latin America, there | :04:48. | :04:56. | |
is no legalisation of marijuana anywhere. Before we go to the heart | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
of drugs, is that about the legalisation? Nobody is proposing | :05:01. | :05:09. | |
the legalisation of any drugs. president of Uruguay has proposed a | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
law to allow people to buy marijuana. I agree marijuana is an | :05:15. | :05:23. | |
issue. But not cocaine or heroin or any other drug. But I am asking | :05:23. | :05:33. | |
:05:33. | :05:36. | ||
about marijuana. Some countries may be moving towards legalising | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
marijuana. Uruguay is a country with very low crime and has high usage of | :05:41. | :05:51. | |
:05:51. | :05:52. | ||
marijuana. They want to regulate it in a better way. And they feel that | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
control of the sale and production is one way. Some countries may do | :05:57. | :06:07. | |
:06:07. | :06:09. | ||
it. What did your reports say about it? Just that. You must have a view | :06:09. | :06:19. | |
:06:19. | :06:20. | ||
on this. Should there be a decriminalisation of drugs, | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
including the hard ones, in Latin America? In my country, private use | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
of drugs is not penalised. You should not meddle with what a person | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
does in his own life. Unless as an addict he is putting in danger other | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
people or participating in criminal activities. You said you wanted to | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
set up a debate in publishing this report about drug policy and that | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
some people might call the aggressive war on drugs, | :06:49. | :06:59. | |
:06:59. | :07:00. | ||
particularly pushed by the United States. He said this was not the | :07:00. | :07:07. | |
only way of dealing with this. What is the key recommendation? The key | :07:07. | :07:14. | |
to this, for example, you spoke about the most violent countries. In | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
Central America, drug consumption is very low but violence is very high | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
because that is where the routes of drugs to the north are based. | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
Central American countries should work together to reduce the | :07:25. | :07:35. | |
:07:35. | :07:39. | ||
violence. We should find ways of reducing the violence. I think that | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
is a fair request because they are not big drug users. But they are big | :07:45. | :07:53. | |
parts of the drug trade. Getting together with who? With all of the | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
Americas. Share responsibilities, reduce demand, help us reduce the | :07:58. | :08:07. | |
violence, help us keep up with the problems we're having. Let us not | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
talk about the legalisation of drugs. Decriminalisation, which is | :08:11. | :08:18. | |
different. That means not to penalise the people who use drugs. | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
If they are sick people, you treat them as sick people, not as | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
criminals. The perception is that the United States remains implacable | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
to any kind of decriminalisation of drugs, whereas some leaders in Latin | :08:30. | :08:39. | |
America have been discussing this. Pope Francis said a reduction in the | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
spread and influence of drug addiction will not he achieved by a | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
liberalisation of drug use as it is currently being proposed in parts of | :08:45. | :08:55. | |
:08:55. | :08:59. | ||
Latin America. Is the pope wrong? Nothing in that report speaks about | :08:59. | :09:08. | |
liberalisation. You're saying Pope Francis is wrong? Liberalisation | :09:08. | :09:14. | |
means everybody doing whatever they want. All of the proposals that | :09:14. | :09:22. | |
exist have to do with regulation. The proposal is to regulate | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
marijuana in a different way, never to liberalise it. Nobody is | :09:28. | :09:35. | |
liberalising anything. Most of the Latin Americans are fully against | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
legalisation of drugs. The government said they will not go | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
against the will of the people. We are talking about some very simple | :09:46. | :09:53. | |
measures. One is not to punish people who consume drugs, let's | :09:53. | :10:01. | |
treat them. Even the United States has very sophisticated drug | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
rehabilitation programmes. Much more now than before. War on drugs is not | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
used any more. The people in charge of drugs in the US say they are not | :10:13. | :10:21. | |
to say any more the war on drugs. there a perception of the softening | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
of opposition, of liberalisation of drugs, that even Pope Francis said | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
what he did, and then the US assistant Secretary of State saying | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
that no international entity is going to dictate legalisation and | :10:29. | :10:39. | |
:10:39. | :10:42. | ||
certainly not to the United States? These comments are not emerging from | :10:42. | :10:52. | |
:10:52. | :10:53. | ||
nowhere. That is a debate that is open. The debate is open because we | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
have been following a certain policy for 40 years now. Drugs continue to | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
flow and people continue to fall into addiction and violence is ever | :11:02. | :11:09. | |
more present. When you do something that does not work for 40 years, you | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
have to find alternatives. We are not proposing the alternatives, we | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
are telling people that these are the alternatives that exist and that | :11:17. | :11:27. | |
:11:27. | :11:34. | ||
I would be against that. Everybody would accept that something has gone | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
wrong and you have put a lot of time and effort into looking into this | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
problem and yet you are not really giving us a very clear or coherent | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
response of the steps that you recommend states should take. We | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
recommend that in countries in which violence exists, we should | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
strengthen the institutions. Most of the violence takes place in | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
countries where there are no legal institutions and impunity is very | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
high and where violence can be committed without any fear of | :11:59. | :12:09. | |
:12:09. | :12:12. | ||
punishment or rule of law. We recommend to strengthen the systems | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
of drug treatment in most of the countries. Only 18 of the 34 | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
republics of the Americas that are part of the OAS have systems with | :12:22. | :12:32. | |
:12:32. | :12:32. | ||
which to deal with drug addiction. We are recommending to deal with the | :12:32. | :12:42. | |
:12:42. | :12:47. | ||
flow of money of drugs, which is $151 billion a year in the Americas. | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
This is a continent, you mentioned violence, this is a continent in | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
which 47% of the cocaine that is consumed in the world is consumed in | :12:54. | :13:02. | |
the Americas. That is a big amount and we have to try to reduce that | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
and find better ways to do it. have discussed the drug situation | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
and how perhaps America does seem to have a clear position that it does | :13:10. | :13:19. | |
not want any kind of softening. Another example that a lot of people | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
talk about between the growing divide in the American states is | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
when you look at the anti-US statements that some leaders make, | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
particularly in the Edward Snowden case, would you say anti-American | :13:27. | :13:37. | |
:13:37. | :13:51. | ||
sentiment is growing? I would not say so. In general, whether it is | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
because Latin America has grown and there is less poverty or more | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
democracy, it is true that many people in the Americas feel that | :13:57. | :14:07. | |
:14:07. | :14:11. | ||
they are not in the priorities of the United States. It is true that | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
many people are not in the priorities of the United States. | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
you have got to people like Evo Morales, president of Bolivia, | :14:19. | :14:29. | |
saying the US still has a mentality of domination and suppression. | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
problem with you people from developed countries, you need to | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
speak about other countries. What about Argentina? President Cristina | :14:39. | :14:49. | |
Fernandez de Kirchner .doc. It is a perfectly normal relationship. The | :14:49. | :14:55. | |
President of Argentina said she complained about the US and other | :14:55. | :15:05. | |
:15:05. | :15:07. | ||
new forms of colonialism. That was in an arbitrary framework. What did | :15:07. | :15:17. | |
:15:17. | :15:18. | ||
that have to do with the United States, though? This was because of | :15:18. | :15:28. | |
:15:28. | :15:34. | ||
other requests? Did you assume that? I'm not in a position to assume | :15:34. | :15:41. | |
anything. You were quoted as saying in a press conference that it is | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
clear this is an event that goes beyond the explanations given. | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
incident leaves a wound and the best way to heal that is to know what | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
really happened and took pace. It sounds like you are being | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
suspicious. I quoted the Supreme Court. Wounds heal in the sunlight. | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
Sure. But I am asking you whether you thought... Have you ever heard | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
that the President's plane is not allowed to pass through certain | :16:03. | :16:12. | |
countries or land in countries? All the countries that were involved in | :16:12. | :16:22. | |
:16:22. | :16:35. | ||
this have asked for an excuse. The President has accepted those... You | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
simply don't do that to a head of state of a democratic country | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
crossing over your airspace. would you say that when Edward | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
Snowden left the US, the countries that have offered him asylum are | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
three Latin American ones. Venezuela says they will give humanitarian | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
asylum, Nicaragua will provide a permit and Bolivia says he has been | :16:49. | :16:59. | |
persecuted by the US. I will explain. Some countries don't accept | :16:59. | :17:06. | |
the petition. But we have an institution in Latin America called | :17:06. | :17:16. | |
:17:16. | :17:18. | ||
the dramatic asylum, a very open form of asylum. Not practised in any | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
other region in the world. That is derived from a time when political | :17:22. | :17:32. | |
:17:32. | :17:36. | ||
asylum was common. Then, it was obvious that anyone would ask Latin | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
American countries for asylum because everybody knows they have a | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
very open system of asylum. But they say Edward Snowden has been | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
persecuted by the US in the case of Bolivia. And not all countries in | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
the Organisation of American States accept that diplomatic principle you | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
have just given. Julian Assange, for example, the WikiLeaks founder in | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
the embassy in Ecuador in London, some Caribbean states and Canada | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
said they don't accept this principle. Canada is not a Latin | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
American country. This is the situation that exists in Latin | :18:06. | :18:16. | |
:18:16. | :18:18. | ||
America for at least a century. The other countries, no, it doesn't | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
exist. It doesn't exist in Europe. All I am saying is, when you want | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
something, you go to a country... For example, if you are running away | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
from someone and you are afraid that you'll face extradition, you will go | :18:31. | :18:41. | |
:18:41. | :18:43. | ||
to a country that has no institution of extradition. When you want to | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
request asylum to a country, your lawyers will tell you to look for a | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
country in which asylum laws are very open. That is what this | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
gentleman has done but it has nothing to do with a decision of | :18:55. | :19:04. | |
Latin America to go against somebody. When that information was | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
leaked by Edward Snowden, he alleged the US had been engaged in the | :19:07. | :19:17. | |
:19:17. | :19:21. | ||
monitoring of communications within Latin America. Not just because of | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
drug trafficking but beyond that for commercial information, particularly | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
on the oil industry. What did you make of those revelations? The big | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
problem, different from the case of WikiLeaks, is not that there were | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
some specific things that happened but rather that he put forward a | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
revelation of a system to spy or find information that goes beyond | :19:35. | :19:45. | |
:19:45. | :19:57. | ||
what anybody in the world knows. I think that's it. That's an important | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
thing to discuss. I know several countries, mainly countries in | :20:00. | :20:07. | |
Europe, have requested from the US information. Only a couple of | :20:07. | :20:15. | |
countries have asked that and I don't think... I don't imagine that | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
there are vast problems of espionage for Latin America. We don't have any | :20:18. | :20:27. | |
information on that. Brazil was very cross. Brazil is one of the | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
countries asking for an explanation from the US. That whole incident | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
about Edward Snowden, in particular the claims and the reaction it | :20:35. | :20:45. | |
:20:45. | :20:49. | ||
provoked in States... It proves intelligence is not that good. | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
has been criticism of you that you, as secretary general, made a fuss | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
about the Morales plane. But it was said that the OAS fails to uphold | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
democratic principles. It was said you were quick to issue a press | :21:01. | :21:11. | |
:21:11. | :21:19. | ||
release about Morales' plane. But it was said to be a waste. That you | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
don't hold accountable any despotic regimes that oppresses millions of | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
people within our hemisphere. Whether you agree that there are | :21:27. | :21:36. | |
despotic regimes or not, it was said there is a difference between... The | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
OAS is an independent body which brings a lot of resolutions on and | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
very strong resolutions, which has the full support of the secretary | :21:42. | :21:52. | |
:21:52. | :21:55. | ||
general. I don't... Maybe they can go into other matters but human | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
rights, except for the European institutions on human rights, the | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
commission and the court of human rights is one of the more | :22:01. | :22:10. | |
:22:11. | :22:13. | ||
prestigious bodies in the world on this matter. How effective is the | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
OAS? You have been the secretary general since 2005. This is your | :22:17. | :22:26. | |
second term. But the OAS has been criticised as an unburied corpse. | :22:26. | :22:35. | |
Are you head of an unburied corpse? I don't think so. I wouldn't be here | :22:35. | :22:45. | |
:22:45. | :22:48. | ||
if I was. Everybody talks about us... Why do the Venezuelan... It's | :22:48. | :22:58. | |
:22:58. | :22:59. | ||
a lively institution. We have limitations. We are not a | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
supranational organisation. We are a multilateral organisation. | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
Therefore, we are ruled by member countries. For me, the member | :23:05. | :23:15. | |
countries are equal. When I do something about one country, I | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
should be willing to say it for another one. Some people want me to | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
go against the elections in Venezuela. But they don't want me to | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
go to elections in other countries. I have obligations to treat every | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
country in the region in the same way. Some countries would like to | :23:34. | :23:41. | |
have Ecuador, Bolivia, Venezuela, out of the organisation. The people | :23:41. | :23:49. |