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bear's head | 0:00:02 | 0:00:03 | |
That's all from me now. | 0:00:03 | 0:00:04 | |
Stay with BBC World News. | 0:00:04 | 0:00:05 | |
Now as part of HARDTALK's 20th Anniversary season, | 0:00:05 | 0:00:08 | |
another chance to see an interview first broadcast in 2013. | 0:00:08 | 0:00:10 | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. | 0:00:10 | 0:00:12 | |
My guest today is the former Bishop of Edinburgh, | 0:00:12 | 0:00:14 | |
Richard Holloway. | 0:00:14 | 0:00:15 | |
He entered a seminary at the age of 14, intent | 0:00:15 | 0:00:20 | |
He rose to become the leader of the Anglican Church in Scotland. | 0:00:20 | 0:00:23 | |
But he gradually lost faith in many of the certainties | 0:00:23 | 0:00:26 | |
in Christianity. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:26 | |
Including the existence of God. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:28 | |
He finally resigned from the church, accusing it of persecuting gay | 0:00:28 | 0:00:31 | |
people. | 0:00:31 | 0:00:33 | |
Did his own loss of faith betray those he once preached to? | 0:00:33 | 0:01:03 | |
Richard Holloway, welcome to HARDtalk. | 0:01:03 | 0:01:05 | |
At the age of 14, you left your working-class home in the west | 0:01:05 | 0:01:09 | |
of Scotland and went off to a very austere place in England. | 0:01:09 | 0:01:12 | |
It was to train as an Anglican priest. | 0:01:12 | 0:01:15 | |
Train as a monk. | 0:01:15 | 0:01:17 | |
What was that like? | 0:01:17 | 0:01:19 | |
It was lovely. | 0:01:19 | 0:01:20 | |
I was a romantic wee boy who wandered the hills | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
where I grew up. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:27 | |
The hills give you a sense of beyondness, of otherness, | 0:01:27 | 0:01:33 | |
but that was also related to me and the kind of love for Western | 0:01:33 | 0:01:36 | |
movies, this idea of the lonely hero. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:38 | |
Riding on and rescuing. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:39 | |
I got kind of bitten by that. | 0:01:39 | 0:01:47 | |
I was discovered by the local priest. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:49 | |
He invited me to join the choir. | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
The beauty of it somehow consumed me. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
He talked about the given away life, this mystical thing called | 0:01:54 | 0:01:57 | |
a vocation that some people had, to give themselves | 0:01:57 | 0:02:01 | |
to a greater purpose. | 0:02:01 | 0:02:04 | |
I went to him when I was 13 and said tentatively, | 0:02:04 | 0:02:07 | |
maybe I was hearing this call to give myself away for this great | 0:02:07 | 0:02:11 | |
purpose called the priesthood, and giving away life, to life. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:17 | |
The lonely hero. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:18 | |
He said, we will send you to this. | 0:02:18 | 0:02:20 | |
Because I was due to leave school at 14. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
There is a monastery in England which trains poor boys | 0:02:22 | 0:02:25 | |
for the Anglican priesthood. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:26 | |
It was a wonderful place. | 0:02:26 | 0:02:28 | |
A kindly, eccentric, mad place. | 0:02:28 | 0:02:29 | |
These lovely old monks. | 0:02:29 | 0:02:31 | |
They were not trained teachers. | 0:02:31 | 0:02:35 | |
But it deeply embedded itself in my psyche. | 0:02:35 | 0:02:37 | |
But it was a strange disruption. | 0:02:37 | 0:02:44 | |
You say in your book, Leaving Alexandria, | 0:02:44 | 0:02:47 | |
which is the name of the town you grew up in, that | 0:02:47 | 0:02:50 | |
you were looking for something called transcendence. | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
What do you mean by that? | 0:02:52 | 0:02:54 | |
I think we are all very strange creatures. | 0:02:54 | 0:02:58 | |
We are not embedded in nature, the way my wee dog is, | 0:02:58 | 0:03:03 | |
or kangaroos in the outback. | 0:03:03 | 0:03:06 | |
We are conscious of ourselves, aware of being strange creatures | 0:03:06 | 0:03:09 | |
in a universe that does not explain itself, does not offer an immediate | 0:03:09 | 0:03:13 | |
manual for reading. | 0:03:13 | 0:03:21 | |
I think the human animal therefore hungers for meaning, | 0:03:21 | 0:03:26 | |
in an apparent meaningless world. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:28 | |
We are very divided, and religion has traditionally been | 0:03:28 | 0:03:30 | |
one of the ways in which the question has been answered. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:33 | |
Yes, there is a meaning and a purpose and you can give | 0:03:33 | 0:03:36 | |
yourself to it. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:37 | |
I'm no longer as comfortable with religious certainties, | 0:03:37 | 0:03:39 | |
but I am still addicted to the search, the strange human | 0:03:39 | 0:03:42 | |
passion of finding meaning and beauty and joy, | 0:03:42 | 0:03:44 | |
and that is the transcendence. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:49 | |
This experience cut you off from your family, didn't it? | 0:03:49 | 0:03:54 | |
It did in a kind of emergent sense. | 0:03:54 | 0:04:00 | |
It never cut me off from their love. | 0:04:00 | 0:04:02 | |
But what I had was the past. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
It started me on the long journey to education, | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
for self reflection, to thinking about things, | 0:04:08 | 0:04:13 | |
and I came from a culture where hard work was embedded. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:17 | |
It didn't, in a sense, educationally evolve. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:21 | |
Increasingly, I did feel a bit of a stranger, | 0:04:22 | 0:04:24 | |
but a loving stranger. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:25 | |
You tell a tale in your book about writing a letter | 0:04:25 | 0:04:28 | |
to your father, trying to win him back for God and for Jesus. | 0:04:28 | 0:04:34 | |
I know, it was horrible. | 0:04:34 | 0:04:36 | |
Every year on Good Friday we fasted all day. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
We had a devotion of three hours which were exactly to correspond | 0:04:39 | 0:04:43 | |
to the three hours that Jesus spent on the cross. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:45 | |
They were always very intense emotionally. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:47 | |
It was a visiting monk who preached to us. | 0:04:47 | 0:04:51 | |
I was fired up by the desire to spread the word of Jesus and God. | 0:04:51 | 0:04:55 | |
Between the end of the three hours and when we had our tea, | 0:04:55 | 0:04:59 | |
I wrote my father a letter, calling him back to God. | 0:04:59 | 0:05:08 | |
Writing the book, I realised that, as I was writing that, | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
I had been three hours in intense devotion, | 0:05:11 | 0:05:13 | |
he was probably facing the next three hours of his shift | 0:05:13 | 0:05:16 | |
in a terrible factory. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:17 | |
And um... | 0:05:17 | 0:05:20 | |
So I set the pious appeal to him. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:26 | |
He had the grace never to reflect it but I'm still ashamed. | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
You found the letter much later, didn't you? | 0:05:30 | 0:05:32 | |
Yes. | 0:05:32 | 0:05:32 | |
In my mother's drawer. | 0:05:32 | 0:05:39 | |
Religion gave you permission to perform these discourtesies. | 0:05:39 | 0:05:46 | |
And, yeah, I'm deeply ashamed. | 0:05:46 | 0:05:49 | |
You say that it started to change when you hit puberty. | 0:05:49 | 0:05:53 | |
Yeah, because sex hit me. | 0:05:53 | 0:05:58 | |
I'd gone there as a wee, prepubescent boy. | 0:05:58 | 0:06:01 | |
I caught this monastic, romantic vocation. | 0:06:01 | 0:06:06 | |
I wanted to give myself away. | 0:06:06 | 0:06:08 | |
And part of that was celibacy. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:12 | |
I discovered... | 0:06:12 | 0:06:13 | |
During an Easter vacation, I used to work at a farm, | 0:06:13 | 0:06:19 | |
and I cuddled a land girl. | 0:06:19 | 0:06:22 | |
I had my first sexual experience. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:26 | |
I didn't know what it was. | 0:06:26 | 0:06:27 | |
Just this thing surged through me. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:29 | |
The same thing happened that night. | 0:06:29 | 0:06:31 | |
I knew it was sinful. | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
Christianity has this problem with sex in the beginning. | 0:06:34 | 0:06:44 | |
Not in a sensible way, saying this is a big thing that can | 0:06:44 | 0:06:48 | |
ruin lives, get it right, be careful about it. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:50 | |
The kind of Christianity I inherited saw it as intrinsically bad, | 0:06:50 | 0:06:53 | |
and the godly people did not do it, they were virgins, | 0:06:53 | 0:06:56 | |
they were celibate. | 0:06:56 | 0:06:57 | |
I was pulled in this terrible tension. | 0:06:57 | 0:06:59 | |
That was a secret I took back with me at age 16. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:02 | |
Looking at all these holy people, assuming they did not | 0:07:02 | 0:07:05 | |
have sexual thoughts. | 0:07:05 | 0:07:05 | |
None of it was hitting them, it was only hitting me. | 0:07:05 | 0:07:09 | |
When did you abandon celibacy? | 0:07:09 | 0:07:10 | |
You are married, you have three daughters. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:12 | |
When I got married. | 0:07:12 | 0:07:13 | |
Even that was a struggle. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:15 | |
I still felt a strange pull that marriage was second best. | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
It was a concession. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:24 | |
The prayer book, Wedding Rite, it says that. | 0:07:24 | 0:07:27 | |
It says marriage is a gift created by God as a gift for those who don't | 0:07:27 | 0:07:32 | |
have the gift of... | 0:07:32 | 0:07:40 | |
Countenance. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:42 | |
It was a methadone maintenance programme for those who could not | 0:07:42 | 0:07:45 | |
give up the sex life. | 0:07:45 | 0:07:46 | |
It always denigrated it. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:47 | |
There was the sense that you had licence to perform it but God | 0:07:47 | 0:07:50 | |
would rather you do not ask for it. | 0:07:50 | 0:07:53 | |
Was the question of sexuality the first step of you and the Church | 0:07:53 | 0:07:56 | |
parting company? | 0:07:56 | 0:07:57 | |
The real kicker for me... | 0:07:57 | 0:07:58 | |
I fought my way and wrestled my way through this stuff intellectually, | 0:07:58 | 0:08:01 | |
but emotionally, probably for me, the real kicker came quite late | 0:08:01 | 0:08:04 | |
in my career. | 0:08:04 | 0:08:18 | |
It was the Church's continued hatred of gay people. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:21 | |
Although many of them were... | 0:08:21 | 0:08:22 | |
Most of my early mentors as priests were gay men with a divided nature, | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
giving themselves to God and the Church. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:28 | |
The Church would say it does not hate gay people, | 0:08:28 | 0:08:31 | |
they simply do not approve of gay sex. | 0:08:31 | 0:08:34 | |
Yes. | 0:08:34 | 0:08:36 | |
It's a distinction without a difference. | 0:08:36 | 0:08:38 | |
If your very urges are condemned as unlawful and displeasing to God, | 0:08:38 | 0:08:41 | |
and I have known many wonderful gay priests who lived this kind | 0:08:41 | 0:08:44 | |
of divided life, I asked one of them, I said, | 0:08:44 | 0:08:47 | |
why are you sticking with this? | 0:08:47 | 0:08:49 | |
He says, because of Jesus. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:50 | |
He had a sense that Jesus would have understood, | 0:08:50 | 0:08:53 | |
because Jesus was surrounded by these discarded outsiders. | 0:08:53 | 0:09:03 | |
That is the bit of Christianity that still appeals for me. | 0:09:03 | 0:09:08 | |
In this man, they've got absolute acceptance of themselves | 0:09:08 | 0:09:10 | |
in their own sense of rottenness. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
But Christianity became respectable. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:17 | |
But the people around Jesus never were. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:21 | |
For me, the people who carried that virus were the gay people. | 0:09:21 | 0:09:25 | |
They felt themselves to be outsiders. | 0:09:25 | 0:09:27 | |
It was when the Church, which had a don't ask, | 0:09:27 | 0:09:30 | |
don't tell policy for a long time, actively started persecuting gay | 0:09:30 | 0:09:34 | |
people in the '90s, that is when I saw that certain ways | 0:09:34 | 0:09:37 | |
of holding faith were cruel, and I think has to be challenged | 0:09:37 | 0:09:41 | |
whenever it appears. | 0:09:41 | 0:09:50 | |
That was the thing that really started me on a journey that | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
took me away. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:54 | |
You said even when you were in training, there was an all-male | 0:09:55 | 0:09:58 | |
environment, your first real crush was on a fellow novice. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:00 | |
What was that relationship like? | 0:10:00 | 0:10:07 | |
It was unnerving in many ways. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
I was quite a happy student. | 0:10:11 | 0:10:13 | |
I worked hard. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
And then I fell in love with a fellow novice. | 0:10:15 | 0:10:20 | |
It plunged me into regret. | 0:10:20 | 0:10:23 | |
Because I didn't want to be with anyone but him. | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
I didn't fantasise sexually about him but emotionally I wanted | 0:10:26 | 0:10:28 | |
to be near him all the time. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:31 | |
I did not know what he thought of me. | 0:10:31 | 0:10:33 | |
I thought he was kind of fond of me. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:36 | |
I met him 30 years later during my retreat to be a bishop, | 0:10:36 | 0:10:39 | |
we had a holiday at Cornwall together, we had to sleep | 0:10:39 | 0:10:45 | |
in a double bed in a farmhouse in Cornwall. | 0:10:45 | 0:10:48 | |
I was intrigued by the fact that I was in bed when he came back | 0:10:48 | 0:10:52 | |
after having brushed his teeth, and he said, I will sleep | 0:10:52 | 0:10:55 | |
on the topside of the sheet, to separate us. | 0:10:55 | 0:10:59 | |
I wondered about that. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:03 | |
He must have had an inkling. | 0:11:03 | 0:11:04 | |
When I went to make my retreat at this nunnery, in 1986, | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
they said to me, he has come back from Africa, | 0:11:08 | 0:11:10 | |
he is leaving the order. | 0:11:10 | 0:11:12 | |
But he is our chaplain at the moment. | 0:11:12 | 0:11:15 | |
It was this guy. | 0:11:15 | 0:11:17 | |
I made my confession to him. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:20 | |
And then leaving the last day, I referred to that journey, | 0:11:20 | 0:11:26 | |
because I remember roses blossoming on the roadside. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:31 | |
He said, we were in love, and I said yes. | 0:11:31 | 0:11:34 | |
I said, can I do anything for you? | 0:11:34 | 0:11:36 | |
He said, buy me a wee transistor radio. | 0:11:37 | 0:11:41 | |
And I did. | 0:11:41 | 0:11:44 | |
You have been a champion of gay people, the right of gay people | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
to join the priesthood. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:50 | |
Why does that matter to you so much? | 0:11:50 | 0:11:53 | |
Partly because, to me, it's a straightforward justice issue. | 0:11:53 | 0:11:59 | |
The most important Christian doctrine is about reincarnation, | 0:11:59 | 0:12:09 | |
-- The most important Christian doctrine is about the incarnation, | 0:12:09 | 0:12:11 | |
which is presupposed of God's love of the world and nature | 0:12:12 | 0:12:15 | |
and all its complexity and plurality, and being gay | 0:12:15 | 0:12:17 | |
is part of that. | 0:12:17 | 0:12:18 | |
Even though I'm not sure about God now, I'm sure that cruelty | 0:12:18 | 0:12:21 | |
to individuals who cannot help their colour, their sexuality, | 0:12:21 | 0:12:24 | |
their gender, is the thing that we most passionately must oppose. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:29 | |
In politics and in religion. | 0:12:29 | 0:12:31 | |
When I saw the Church be increasingly cruel to them, | 0:12:31 | 0:12:38 | |
it was about 1988... | 0:12:38 | 0:12:44 | |
It peaked at a conference then. | 0:12:44 | 0:12:46 | |
You are now the most senior Anglican clergyman in Scotland, | 0:12:46 | 0:12:48 | |
and you went to these... | 0:12:48 | 0:12:50 | |
These conferences happen once a decade. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:52 | |
You saw what you described as the cruelty among | 0:12:52 | 0:12:54 | |
your fellow clergymen. | 0:12:54 | 0:12:55 | |
What did you mean? | 0:12:55 | 0:12:56 | |
There was a debate about human sexuality, essentially about gay | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
sexuality, and whether practising gay people could be... | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
Ordained. | 0:13:03 | 0:13:06 | |
They have been in their thousands for centuries. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:12 | |
The African bishops, who are particularly homophobic, | 0:13:12 | 0:13:15 | |
hijacked the debate, and they wanted the Lambeth | 0:13:15 | 0:13:24 | |
conference to condemn gay sexuality in a famous proposal called 101. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
It was like being at a Nuremberg rally. | 0:13:27 | 0:13:29 | |
It wasn't a considered debate - the Bible says we can't support | 0:13:29 | 0:13:33 | |
this, I want to be compassionate... | 0:13:33 | 0:13:34 | |
No, it was ugly, it was cruel. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:37 | |
They were saying the kind of things that the most horrible bigots say, | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
and I came out a bit drained. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:43 | |
Something died in me. | 0:13:43 | 0:13:47 | |
Outside, on a wee grassy knoll, a Nigerian bishop was exorcising | 0:13:47 | 0:13:51 | |
a young gay man. | 0:13:51 | 0:13:53 | |
Trying to cast out the devil of homosexuality. | 0:13:54 | 0:13:58 | |
A devil did come out but it was the devil of homophobia, | 0:13:58 | 0:14:01 | |
and it has bedevilled the Anglican Church ever since. | 0:14:01 | 0:14:04 | |
We are still wrestling with it. | 0:14:04 | 0:14:06 | |
Anyone under 35 just does not get it, but we are still rabbiting | 0:14:06 | 0:14:10 | |
on about it. | 0:14:10 | 0:14:11 | |
It kills me. | 0:14:11 | 0:14:13 | |
Is it true that you threw your bishop's mitre in the Thames? | 0:14:13 | 0:14:16 | |
It's true. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:17 | |
An artist made me a biodegradable one. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:19 | |
But I chucked it in. | 0:14:19 | 0:14:27 | |
And you stayed in the church for two more years. | 0:14:27 | 0:14:32 | |
What it's like to stand by the altar, in the pulpit, | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
preaching to people who believe in the resurrection, | 0:14:35 | 0:14:37 | |
who believed in the divinity of Christ, when you, | 0:14:37 | 0:14:40 | |
yourself, have long since given all that up? | 0:14:40 | 0:14:42 | |
Well, that was a slow evolutionary process. | 0:14:42 | 0:14:44 | |
It was more the ethical thing that did me in. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:47 | |
You can deal with... | 0:14:47 | 0:14:49 | |
Doctrinal stuff is metaphoric, it's poetic. | 0:14:49 | 0:14:51 | |
Not to every priest. | 0:14:51 | 0:14:52 | |
Not to every believer. | 0:14:52 | 0:14:53 | |
Not to everybody, yes, but to a lot of people. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:56 | |
But the resurrection, surely, the literal truth | 0:14:56 | 0:14:58 | |
of the resurrection is non-negotiable for most | 0:14:58 | 0:14:59 | |
Christians. | 0:14:59 | 0:15:02 | |
I suppose it is. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:03 | |
But I think that it's always been interpreted in a number | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
of different ways. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:13 | |
It seems to me that the resurrection is about more than a resuscitated | 0:15:13 | 0:15:17 | |
body walking out of a tomb. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:19 | |
What's the significance of that? | 0:15:19 | 0:15:20 | |
The resurrection that made the woman go to the front of the bus instead | 0:15:20 | 0:15:24 | |
of staying in the back of the bus, that made Martin Luther King | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
challenge racism, that's real resurrection stuff. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:29 | |
I'm not interested in the biology of bodies walking out of tombs. | 0:15:29 | 0:15:32 | |
I'm interested in the resurrection narrative that changes history. | 0:15:32 | 0:15:35 | |
That, I've always believed in. | 0:15:35 | 0:15:36 | |
A lot of people literalise these great myths. | 0:15:36 | 0:15:38 | |
Religion is a story. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:39 | |
It's not factual, scientific knowledge. | 0:15:39 | 0:15:41 | |
It's a fundamental category error to misunderstand that. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:43 | |
The trouble is, we falsely scientised it. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:45 | |
I think scared theologians have falsely scientised it. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:47 | |
If it helps you get through life believing those physical... | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
I wouldn't try to knock that for you. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
But just don't force me to say that they're factual, | 0:15:52 | 0:15:54 | |
when I treat them as metaphorical, and poetical. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:57 | |
And that makes them even more powerful. | 0:15:57 | 0:16:05 | |
Can you understand why a lot of people in the Anglican Communion, | 0:16:05 | 0:16:08 | |
a lot of Christians whom you lead, feel betrayed by the way | 0:16:08 | 0:16:12 | |
in which you've changed your thinking about religion? | 0:16:12 | 0:16:14 | |
Oh, sure. | 0:16:14 | 0:16:16 | |
And I hate hurting people. I did hurt a lot of people. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:20 | |
I said that in my final sermon. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:22 | |
I said I'd become, in my 60s, the kind of Bishop I hated | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
in my 30s. | 0:16:25 | 0:16:26 | |
I had to be kind of true to that. It was a slow, emergent process. | 0:16:26 | 0:16:30 | |
Yeah, I get that. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:34 | |
I get the complexity of all of this. | 0:16:34 | 0:16:36 | |
I hurt lots of people, to whom I was a precious | 0:16:37 | 0:16:39 | |
source of support. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:42 | |
That's why I had to go away and take a sabbatical from religion. | 0:16:42 | 0:16:45 | |
That's the trouble with religion, it got stuck 2000, 3000 years ago. | 0:16:45 | 0:16:48 | |
It got stuck with women, it got stuck with gays, | 0:16:48 | 0:16:51 | |
it got stuck with ways of understanding the astronomy | 0:16:51 | 0:16:53 | |
of the universe. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:58 | |
You can keep the best of religion and still intellectually go on. | 0:16:58 | 0:17:01 | |
And that, I think, is all I was arguing for. | 0:17:01 | 0:17:04 | |
I wasn't saying that you mustn't believe in a physical resurrection | 0:17:04 | 0:17:07 | |
or a six-day creation. | 0:17:07 | 0:17:13 | |
If it helps you through life, do it, as long as it doesn't make you cruel | 0:17:13 | 0:17:17 | |
and persecutory, that's not the way I understand these things. | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
I'm sure I know how much I hurt people. | 0:17:20 | 0:17:22 | |
They wrote and told me. | 0:17:22 | 0:17:27 | |
I've got a big mailbag. | 0:17:27 | 0:17:28 | |
There was a kind of helplessness about it. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:30 | |
In many ways, I was a divided soul. | 0:17:30 | 0:17:32 | |
It's a classic Scottish thing to be, it's what McDermott called | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
the antisyzygy, that you can incorporate two contending realities | 0:17:36 | 0:17:38 | |
in your own soul. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:40 | |
I think that's not a bad way to live, because truth | 0:17:40 | 0:17:43 | |
is really simple. | 0:17:43 | 0:17:49 | |
Should the church be forced by law to marry gay people, | 0:17:49 | 0:17:52 | |
even when it doesn't want to? | 0:17:53 | 0:17:54 | |
No, I wouldn't do that. | 0:17:54 | 0:17:55 | |
I'm enough of a liberal... | 0:17:55 | 0:17:57 | |
I don't like the way the French do this. | 0:17:57 | 0:17:59 | |
I like a secular society. | 0:17:59 | 0:18:01 | |
If people want to cover themselves in a head to foot cassock cloak, | 0:18:01 | 0:18:04 | |
I don't want to interfere with that. | 0:18:04 | 0:18:06 | |
I quite like the accommodation we've reached in Britain, | 0:18:06 | 0:18:09 | |
we're pretty much a secular society, but history's untidy. | 0:18:09 | 0:18:11 | |
There are elements of the old religious domination. | 0:18:11 | 0:18:14 | |
I think religion should be free to practice their beliefs | 0:18:14 | 0:18:16 | |
and rituals in the sanctuary. | 0:18:16 | 0:18:18 | |
What I don't like is when I try to bully people in the secular square. | 0:18:18 | 0:18:22 | |
"Because we forbid this in the sanctuary, we are not | 0:18:22 | 0:18:25 | |
going to let you get away with it in the public square", | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
we must oppose that. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
I wouldn't want to interfere. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:32 | |
And they get opt outs. | 0:18:32 | 0:18:38 | |
They discriminate against women, they discriminate against gays. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:40 | |
I let them be their eccentric, bigoted selves in the sanctuary. | 0:18:40 | 0:18:43 | |
But I stand defiantly against them if they tried to emancipate | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
these imprisoned people. | 0:18:46 | 0:18:56 | |
Successive Archbishops of Canterbury have always prioritised preserving | 0:18:56 | 0:18:59 | |
the unity of the worldwide Anglican communion. | 0:18:59 | 0:19:01 | |
And admitting gay priests would have shattered that community. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:03 | |
Weren't they right to hold onto that until the church is ready to take | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
that step together? | 0:19:07 | 0:19:16 | |
There is an argument for that, clearly. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:18 | |
It's this duality thing again. | 0:19:18 | 0:19:19 | |
If your primary value is institutional unity, | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
if you prize unity above, say, justice, you'll do that. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:24 | |
And honourable men, and it's all men, have done that. | 0:19:24 | 0:19:27 | |
I can respect that. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:33 | |
But if that's all you have, if you just have institutional | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
unity, if you don't have awkward, maverick people saying you shouldn't | 0:19:36 | 0:19:39 | |
be doing that, you shouldn't be penalising gay people and women, | 0:19:39 | 0:19:42 | |
that's called the prophetic tradition in Christianity. | 0:19:42 | 0:19:44 | |
The three classic roles in Hebrew religion, prophets, | 0:19:44 | 0:20:01 | |
priest and king. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:02 | |
Kings rule, priests justify the rule with Godly anointing, | 0:20:02 | 0:20:04 | |
and it's always the prophets, the awkward squad, who come along | 0:20:04 | 0:20:07 | |
and say, that's wrong. | 0:20:07 | 0:20:08 | |
If you purge the prophetic element from the church, | 0:20:08 | 0:20:11 | |
you purge its cleansing element. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:12 | |
Now, it's probably not a good idea to make prophets archbishops or even | 0:20:12 | 0:20:16 | |
bishops, so probably I was a mis-description. | 0:20:16 | 0:20:18 | |
I ended up feeling I had to prophetically challenge these | 0:20:18 | 0:20:20 | |
injustices. | 0:20:20 | 0:20:24 | |
But in my understanding of the ecology of institutions, | 0:20:24 | 0:20:27 | |
I know that it takes a while. | 0:20:27 | 0:20:29 | |
But it's always the awkward sods, the minority that bring change, | 0:20:29 | 0:20:36 | |
because the big, powerful institutions never volunteer | 0:20:36 | 0:20:38 | |
to empty themselves of power. | 0:20:38 | 0:20:39 | |
Male patriarchy in Britain didn't volunteer to give women the vote. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
Women died to get the vote. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:45 | |
They chained themselves to railings, and that's what brings change. | 0:20:45 | 0:20:48 | |
OK, I can understand that, but morally, I'm sorry, | 0:20:48 | 0:20:50 | |
I still think that justice trumps institutional unity. | 0:20:50 | 0:20:58 | |
And you haven't walked away from the church altogether. | 0:20:59 | 0:21:01 | |
You still sometimes attend your old church, | 0:21:01 | 0:21:03 | |
Old Saint Paul's in Edinburgh. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:04 | |
Yes. | 0:21:04 | 0:21:09 | |
It's a pretty forgiving church that welcomes | 0:21:09 | 0:21:11 | |
you back, isn't it? | 0:21:11 | 0:21:12 | |
Yeah. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:13 | |
Well, I think, on the whole, the Anglican Church has been | 0:21:13 | 0:21:16 | |
a forgiving church. | 0:21:16 | 0:21:17 | |
It's been a messy, muddled church. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:18 | |
It got hardened in the 90s when it was drifting | 0:21:18 | 0:21:21 | |
and they thought the only way for churches to survive | 0:21:21 | 0:21:24 | |
was to become very conservative, evangelical and give people | 0:21:24 | 0:21:26 | |
the perfect package, answer every question. | 0:21:26 | 0:21:28 | |
Whereas, on the whole, the Anglican Church tended | 0:21:28 | 0:21:30 | |
to question every answer. | 0:21:30 | 0:21:34 | |
It's still a spacious, imaginative church. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:36 | |
Yeah, I'm in church most Sundays, at Old Saint Paul's. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:39 | |
I love that building. | 0:21:39 | 0:21:40 | |
It traps the mystery of this hunger for transcendence for me. | 0:21:40 | 0:21:43 | |
It's uncomfortable, I don't do God comfortably. | 0:21:43 | 0:21:45 | |
A lot of people talk too comfortably about what, | 0:21:45 | 0:21:47 | |
to me, is an unspeakable mystery. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:49 | |
But I'd rather be in than out. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:53 | |
Do you still think of yourself as a Christian? | 0:21:53 | 0:21:55 | |
I think of myself as an agnostic Christian. | 0:21:55 | 0:21:57 | |
But I'm not interested in the labels. | 0:21:57 | 0:21:59 | |
Jesus is still very important to me. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:01 | |
I never lost Jesus. | 0:22:01 | 0:22:06 | |
Jesus was a challenger. | 0:22:06 | 0:22:07 | |
He didn't prioritise institutional unity over justice and truth. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
On the whole, people that prioritise institutional integrity over justice | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
and truth don't get crucified. | 0:22:13 | 0:22:14 | |
I'm interested that you still go back to Kelham Hall, | 0:22:14 | 0:22:17 | |
where it all started for you. | 0:22:17 | 0:22:18 | |
Is there part of you that imagines the monastic life | 0:22:18 | 0:22:21 | |
you might have led? | 0:22:21 | 0:22:22 | |
Constantly, yes. | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
It's hard to talk about it without tearing up, and I get weepy. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:29 | |
But I go back to the graveyard, that's all that's left of the order, | 0:22:29 | 0:22:33 | |
because they moved out in 1973. | 0:22:33 | 0:22:34 | |
A bit of me still hankers after the absolutely tightly packed | 0:22:34 | 0:22:37 | |
given away life, without questioning this other self. | 0:22:37 | 0:22:39 | |
But what McDermott calls the Caledonian antisyzygy is in me. | 0:22:40 | 0:22:42 | |
I'm there, part of that, but I'm also part of someone | 0:22:42 | 0:22:47 | |
who leaves places and moves on, and is never comfortable anywhere. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:57 | |
And abandons old certainties. | 0:22:57 | 0:23:00 | |
That's been the story of your life, hasn't it? | 0:23:00 | 0:23:02 | |
Yes, and that's painful. | 0:23:02 | 0:23:04 | |
Certainties can be comforting, they're a nice woolly coat | 0:23:04 | 0:23:06 | |
against the icy brass. | 0:23:06 | 0:23:09 | |
Yeah, I'm now very suspicious of certainty. | 0:23:09 | 0:23:11 | |
Political certainty and theological certainty. | 0:23:11 | 0:23:13 | |
I think that there is a cleansing humility about doubt. | 0:23:13 | 0:23:16 | |
It helps us muddle our way through some of the jails | 0:23:16 | 0:23:19 | |
we imprison ourselves in. | 0:23:19 | 0:23:26 | |
Yeah, I suppose I now preach a gospel of uncertainty. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:29 | |
What about one of the great certainties of the Christian faith, | 0:23:29 | 0:23:32 | |
the idea of life after death, a life for all eternity? | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
I don't have that. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:36 | |
I'm probably more certain about not having it. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:38 | |
I can't say for certain. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:39 | |
Obviously this universe is an extraordinary thing. | 0:23:40 | 0:23:41 | |
In some sense, they're my grandchildren over there, | 0:23:42 | 0:23:44 | |
my DNA will go on in them and in their grandchildren. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:49 | |
But I don't expect when I die to wake up, meet Audrey Hepburn | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
guiding me in to the afterlife. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:54 | |
And all the prospectuses I've read of it don't attract me. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:57 | |
But who knows? | 0:23:57 | 0:24:07 | |
I might be surprised. Not unpleasantly, I hope. | 0:24:07 | 0:24:09 | |
Richard Holloway, thank you for speaking to HARDTalk. | 0:24:09 | 0:24:11 | |
Been a pleasure, Alan. | 0:24:11 | 0:24:14 | |
Hello there. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:40 | |
The weekend's weather brought us plenty of warm sunshine. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
There was a bit of rain across northern and western parts | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
of the country. | 0:24:46 | 0:24:47 |