Emma Bonino - Foreign Minister, Italy HARDtalk


Emma Bonino - Foreign Minister, Italy

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others. Those are the latest headlines. Now

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it is time for HARDtalk. We have a specially invited audience

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of 100 inspiring women from all over the world, and our special guest

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today on HARDtalk is one of the world's best`known female

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politicians, former EU Commissioner and Italy's Foreign Minister, Emma

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Bonino. For many years she has been a bold and outspoken activist for

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numerous causes, all with the same aim of trying to fight injustice,

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discrimination, poverty, disease and hunger. But when she looks around

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her native Italy, though she feel that the progressives like her have

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lost the fight against sexism and racism?

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Welcome to HARDtalk. Italy is one of the murdered a ban is to nations in

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so why is it such a tough place to be a woman? `` the most advanced.

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Because of tradition, the Conservative political environment.

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We are also a vast Lee Catholic country. It has a Conservative

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approach. But still there have been a lot of improvements. If I look

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backward 40 years ago, when I was a young girl, I cannot even recognise

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my country. So there is hope and room for improvement. But you

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mention those factors, but what about the Berlusconi factor? I am

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not so much concerned about the private life of a president

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Berlusconi. What is a bigger concern to me is the perceived bid female

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stereotyping. `` pervasive. It has become so entrenched. And Silvio

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Berlusconi operates the media. But also public. So that is what

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concerns me very much. You say there have in improvements. If you look at

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the World Economic Forum 's, the gender gap survey, Italy ranks at

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71, much lower than other comp report EU nations. It is true. So it

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is more sexist. I would say more traditional. On top of that, it

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applies in politics and in many others at theirs, and just because

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we are here, how many presidents or director generals are female in BBC?

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Not one. Emma Bonino, it looks at access for women in health,

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education, not just politics. The regional league. But you talk about

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the fact the media has rarely contributed to the sexual

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objectification of women. A summit in New York, which you attended, the

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Italian actress said, that we do not have the mall role models to which

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we can aspire to. The winning model is a young woman who is available to

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be corrupted, go to parties and the next two powerful man, and next day

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she is on the cover of all the magazines, she gets interviewed on

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TV and gets a fashion campaign, she becomes a star. That is the

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stereotyping that I was talking about. It is giving a terrible

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message to young girls and men, as if being a woman can only comply to

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this model. That has been my fight. Luckily I am not alone. There is a

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move in Italy that wants to overcome this stereotype and I am happy to

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say, that since then, things have been changing, V K Lee... On state

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television, which is powerful `` portraying a different kind of

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model. But a lot of people wander, and I do not want to go on about

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Berlusconi, but a lot of people wonder whether somebody like him or

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the kind of comments that he made could be have in re`elected five

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times, Prime Minister for seven years, let me remind you of a couple

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of things that he said. In 2010, he said one reason for investing in

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Italy was because we have beautiful secretaries in Italy, supposed

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girls. In April 2011, when asked whether they would like to have sex

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with me, 30% of women said yes, the other 70% said, what, again? That is

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the Prime Minister saying that. But the other question is, that is so

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entrenched in the sort of culture in my country that he has been ill at

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it. We have to macro things to fight. It is not one person. It is a

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culture that comes a long way. Do you accept that another major

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European country... It would not have happened? That a Prime Minister

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in power at time... It is difficult to say. But contrary to this, this

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is also the country, that thanks to my party and others, got the law on

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divorce back in the 70s, legalised abortion back in the 70s. You were

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instrumental in both of those. You have been a very outspoken person.

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So it means there is room for changing things. In democracies

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sometime, sometimes we go forward and sometimes we go backward. But

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you have to nurture what you really want. So it is not an easy task,

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nowhere in the world. In 2001, 2009, you were so cross about the lack of

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political space that the radicals like you were getting, that you went

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on hunger strike. You say women are fighting against this in Italy, but

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bitterly to lead. It was only in March that you had 100,000 women go

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on a protest march. That is a bit late in the day, is it? It is late

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but it is coming back. I prefer to see the positive side of it. I look

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backward, I see a period of great innovation, the 70s and 80s, I see a

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period of sort of everybody sleeping, in some way, even the

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feminist movement went a bit quiet. Now we are back. I think that is

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very important. I prefer to see the positive side. All my energy is to

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push forward. In fairy we had general elections in Italy. ``

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February. He leads a grand coalition. Because nobody won. As

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you said, things have got better. Women in Parliament went up to 30%.

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Seven out of the 21 Cabinet ministers are now women. But the

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fact of the matter is, it is getting better but from a fairly low base.

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Sure. If we were far ahead, I would spend less energy on these kind of

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issues. But it is still a puff place for a woman to be in power. The

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Speaker of the lower chamber in Parliament... Is there a place where

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there is an easy life all were men in power? If you know it, in a bid

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for me. `` for women. She gets threats, images of her being raped,

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her throat being slipped. Where did you have a major political figure

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getting that kind of. Not. But we have a brave minister, who get

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insulted or everyday and reacts back. She is friendly, making a

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major change in my country. You mention Cecile, who was born in the

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Democratic Republic of Congo, made minister of integration. But look

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what has happened to her, she goes to public meetings, she has bananas

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thrown at her. You had the Italian MEP, he said that she wants to

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impose her tribal traditions from the Congo, she seems like a great

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housekeeper but not a governor in a start. August 2013, Roberto, the

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current vice president of Italy, addressing the rally for the

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Northern league party, I love animals, but when I see pic is of

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her, I cannot but think of the features of an orangutan,

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her, I cannot but think of the the reaction was overwhelming. That

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is appalling. It is appalling. He apologised. What happened to him?

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Nothing. But the reaction has been overwhelming. She is paying a very

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tough price to make the culture of my country change. I really want to

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thank her for the courage... And because she is brave. But she is

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making my country change. Is she really making your country change? I

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put it you that if any politician made such comments, orangutan, for

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instance, housekeeper, it would be the end of his her career. Let's

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hope it will be. Do you accept that Italy... I am not sure. I have seen

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other politicians, unfortunately, attacking the Roma community in a

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very insulting way. I am saying that bad behaviour has to bring a more

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vocal reaction. That is what is happening. I see it as encroachment

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to go Paul Wade. What happened in the press? In the press, and in

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public opinion, there was a fantastic reaction that these things

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are not tolerable. I do prefer to have problems in public, and I

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prefer to have public confrontation, instead of a sort of quietness, in

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which nobody dares to stand for it. So at the end of it, I strongly

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believe that as in many other countries, particularly in the

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Mediterranean, we have a long way to go. But let's not think that nothing

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will come for free. When you are talking like that, that people

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should be more tolerant of immigrants, and people of different

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race, but when you look at opinion polls, up to 80% of Italian people

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are opposed to immigration. You are swimming against the tide. That is

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everywhere in Europe. That is one of the reasons were we talk about the

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southern borders of Europe, not only of Italy, nobody wants to be... I am

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afraid to be, populism is taking root all over Europe, and that is

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what worries me, because if it is only one country, the other one can

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help. But I am afraid it is taking root also in other countries, which

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is the final end of the project of Europe, what I thought was Europe.

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You say that, but the German interior minister has rejected this

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idea that Italy in particular has a problem. He says that Germany has

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946 refugees per 1 million population, Italy has 260. Your

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population is about 60 million? You are not overburdened. I am not

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talking that kind of burden. I'm talking about common responsibility

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of the southern border of Europe. They land in Lampedusa, or whatever.

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But what is happening in the southern Mediterranean, with

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poverty, turmoil, makes a problem that is for everybody. But we hear

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the mayor saying, please give us help, the Italian saying, please

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give us help. But it is not particularly overburdened. It is not

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the question of refugees. What we are underlying is the question of

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people who die at sea. We had the tragedy of land producer, that we

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had also 400 operations. `` and producer. Which were positive. 400

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surge in rescue operations in the sea, and then a tragedy happened. ``

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search and rescue. But what is happening, millions of people on the

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move, it is not a problem that can be tackled by Italy a loan. I will

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ask you about that issue in a moment. But to finish the point,

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which you say is a different one about immigration in Italy, Italy in

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particular, of EU countries, all Western countries, has an ageing

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population. The lowest birth rates, 1.2%. `` 1.2 on average. You need to

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hunt and 50,000 immigrants every year for the next ten years in order

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to field your skills will teach. `` 250,000. So politicians like you

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should make the economic case. But that is clear for everybody. It is

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clear to everybody. We have 5 million illegal immigrants in my

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country, who are by way, there are a lot of success stories, 5 million

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illegal immigrants. That is not the problem. The problem is in motion,

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feeling, sensation. A country that has been a country of huge

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immigration, which is not at all used to immigration that happened in

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one generation. It is a problem for Europe, for Italy and for Europe,

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that we must tackle, and I must say, there is no easy solution. No

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miracle solution. We are talking about the boat tragedy, hundreds of

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African migrants lost their lives in the Mediterranean.

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It has provoked a response from European leaders about what you do.

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In the former French Foreign Minister, has been writing in

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October saying" we have to reinforce the European border agency with

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money, resources, and with a one country, one boat mission. So that

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all EU members participate in the plan, and asylum seekers are

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allocated to all EU nations, not just those bordering the

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Mediterranean. " you agree with that. The southern border is a

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common responsibility. The rescue must be strengthened, which is not

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the case yet. So, waiting for Europe, we have done our job,

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decided our initiative, putting all the Navy we have at disposal to

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rescue people, but that is not the policy in Europe as far as

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immigration and asylum. It is not a common policy, every country wants

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to do its own national policy, and I think this is simply not effective.

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I hope that the tragedy will not be forgotten, in a nutshell. You think

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it will mean that you have now been given by the EU $40 million to help

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you deal with the influx of migrants, do you think Lampedusa was

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a game changer? I hope. I am working for that. Today, people have short

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memories, and there are new tragedies coming. If you just move

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to Syria, for instance, you would see 1 million refugees. So we are

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working to make that the tragedy is not forgotten, and pave the way for

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a new and more sensible policy. It will not be easy, there is no

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miracle solution, nowhere in the world, I have never seen immigration

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solved easily, nowhere. Not even in the US, or whatever. But we have to

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tackle the issue. I know one thing, this phenomenon is here to stay with

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us. African countries that border the Mediterranean are in political

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and economic turmoil. We need to sit down and rationally try to

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step`by`step be more effective. There are people who just want to

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stay in their home, and that is simply not going to work. We see

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what you are saying. We have seen Enrico Letta save, let's declare a

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day of national mourning for these people who died at sea, we also saw

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the Indonesian President visiting Lampedusa. But we also see that you

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have overcrowded migrant centres in Lampedusa, we look at Italy's half

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anti`immigration laws, set up in 2002, whereby the mere act of an

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Italian citizen helping an irregular migrant criminalises that action.

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Criminal eyes is the person if they give them shelter all work. But that

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is not really the conflict. The conflict is there, because according

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to the treaty, when people call us for asylum, they have the same where

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they want a silent. They have to stay where they ask for asylum. That

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is another limitation that is difficult to overcome. On `` the

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trouble is that they see Italy as a transit Country. They want to go to

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France, or elsewhere in Europe where their families are. We have more

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less seven million people on the move, just on the southern border.

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They are going to Bulgaria now, which is calling for help. Of

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course, in winter, perhaps they will not come by sea, they will go buy

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land, via Turkey or everywhere. That needs a long time policy, but zero

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problem does not exist. We have to accept the fact that this mobility

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of people, is a phenomena that is here to stay with us. It has been

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said that EU countries of lack of generosity and imagination. Do you

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think that the EU has really lost its edge. One example, Italy given

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very little in aid, failing dismally to meet its commitments for

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international aid set up by the EU. Yes, I think it has a lot to do with

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people becoming introverted and more provincial, and trying to defend

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what they have and being very scared of any new things. And it is making

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you a declining power on the world stage? Well, we're not common power,

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we don't always act in a very coherent and cohesive way. But it

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certainly has a lot to do with it. People become very scared. They

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think that if they close the border, they will be safe. Which is a wrong

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appreciation, it doesn't work like that. Emotionally, this is what is

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happening. You think that the EU, essentially, can only be a force on

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the global stage of its allies at Telford the US `` allies itself with

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the US? We can discuss with the Americans or others, but first we

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have to do find an agreement among the 28 EU member states. Will there

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be any coherence at the EU when it comes to the spying allegations. As

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you know, Angela Merkel has, many observers say, really reacted in a

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very angry way. Very rare for her, when there were allegations that the

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NSA of the US had been tapping her personal mobile phone. She said,

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friends don't spy on each other. She says, you have got to build trust

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amongst one another. Newspaper allegations in the Guardian in the

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UK say that 85 world leaders were included in this kind of

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surveillance. Was Italy, to your knowledge, one of those countries?

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To my knowledge, we are not. That doesn't make us different. Will you

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be asking the Americans? We did already. We had a bilateral with

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John Kerry at on Wednesday, and they acknowledge that they have a problem

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and agreed to fix it. They said President Obama is determined to

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find a solution to the problem. What did he say the nation of the problem

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was? He didn't elaborate, and I didn't ask either. What was

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important yesterday was that 28 head of state meeting yesterday,

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altogether, with one voice, asked and reacted for an explanation.

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Because Francoise Hollande was, and the Germans were angry, they said

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they wanted a meeting to work it out. Were you shocked by these

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revelations that came from Edward Snowden? I am not exactly shop.

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Maybe surprised. `` shocked. I want to ask you very quickly, on Syria,

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because you are one of the Friends of Syria, what happens to Assad?

:22:26.:22:38.

Briefly, but Bashar al`Assad. First, I'm really happy that now the

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political solution has become the mainstream after a period of

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military, whatever, intervention, and Italy has been consistent in

:22:50.:22:52.

calling for a political process. Impunity for the Assad regime? The

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reason why you make a conference is that you don't prejudge the

:22:58.:23:00.

conference at the beginning, otherwise it is useless to make a

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peace conference. That is why, today, the most important in is to

:23:08.:23:14.

bring the two to the table. One of the most challenging things is that

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the Syrian opposition is not yet, let's say, at that point to sitting

:23:18.:23:21.

at the table. Bringing it back to women, Italy has never had a female

:23:22.:23:27.

PM. When might we see one? That is not the issue. The issue is another

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one. Women really go on walking, standing, asking, pretending, that

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is the real issue. Thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.

:23:45.:23:49.

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