Rebecca Gomperts - Director, Women on Waves HARDtalk


Rebecca Gomperts - Director, Women on Waves

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detained around 90 people. Time now for HARDtalk with Zeinab

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Badawi. Welcome to HARDtalk. Its access to

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abortion a human right for women everywhere in the world? Women on

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Waves has provided abortions and contraception to women who live in

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countries where terminating pregnancy is illegal or restricted.

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The organisation was set up by Dutch doctor Rebecca Gomperts who hires a

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ship, registered under Dutch law, and sails into it that ``

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international water. How do she justify helping women ignore the own

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climate in their countries? Doctor Rebecca Gomperts, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Thank you very much. Abortion is a controversial issue,

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why did you take it up as a cause? As a woman and a doctor I met Winnie

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`` many women suffering from abortion. It is one of the main

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problems for women worldwide. I believe it is a right, the right to

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autonomy is violated if the women are not capable of deciding about

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our lives. You are struck by the figures, WHO says 21.7 million

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people that women have illegal abortions every year. Was that the

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figures you found? When I started the figures were even higher. When a

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medical abortion, abortion by pills, was introduced more widely

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the death rate has dropped significantly. It is not just the

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women who are dying. 8 million women have to be hospitalised and suffer

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from long`term consequences. But also girls have to quit school when

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they are pregnant and cannot have a safe abortion and are forced to

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carry a pregnancy to term. It is a social injustice, for me. You are

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responding as a women's campaigner but as a doctor you know a lot of

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your fellow doctors find abortion rather unpalatable. Some he

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represents this body and says there we are in a hospital trying to save

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the life of a premature baby born at 21 weeks and down the corridor in

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the hospital there are women coming in to abort babies at up to 24

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weeks, that is here in the UK. How can anyone say that make sense? They

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are two very different situations a woman is. When a child is wanted it

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is awful when there is a premature birth. When it is an unwanted

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pregnancy a woman should not need to die she was to have a safe abortion.

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That is what is happening. You see any conflict, as a doctor, rather

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than in prolonging life you are terminating it. I am there to

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support the life of the women. I do not see a conflict. When women have

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an unwanted pregnancy they will end it no matter what. Women that have

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money can go to a doctor that will help them for a lot of money. It is

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a social justice issue. For women who do not have access to

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information who are forced to do it unsafely with knitting needles or

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poisons. Abortion can be so safe, for example when it is done by

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medicines. It is the safest medical procedure that exists. You back

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abortion in any case, a lifestyle choice, not performing and abortion

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to save the life of the mother because the fetus is in some it not

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viable. I wonder whether you come in your late 20s, you are on the record

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as saying it had an abortion because it did not seek to live at the time

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to have a child. I am wondering whether your own experience

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influences what you do. I wish all women who had abortions would

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support abortion rights and stand for it. The reality in the world is

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that every woman has an abortion once in her lifetime. That is not

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true, is it, not every woman. Not every woman has an abortion, but

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statistically, the number of abortions, there are statistically

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every woman would have an abortion once in her lifetime. In the

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Netherlands, one in five women has an abortion. Some women have more

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than one and some have none at all. As a doctor as an abortion fighter I

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have had many times were a woman has come to me and said I am against

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abortion but my situation is different. It is that the

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fundamentals this issue. Nobody really knows what it is to have an

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unwanted pregnancy unless you are in that situation. That is why movie

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can decide this for anybody else. This is a decision that a woman can

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only make herself because she knows what it means to her and her

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life... Women to undertake the decision, navy does... Nervy knows

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what they would decide when they have situation. What people think is

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that most women who have abortions, most of them have children. You are

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now the mother of two young children. Did that change of use? It

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did not change might use in any way. `` view. I could even understand

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better. It is very demanding to have children. It is beautiful. But her

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mother wants to give their children everything she can when she feels

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she cannot give everything that she was to give to a child, that is the

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moment that she decides... You believe access to abortion is

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essentially a right for all women wherever they live. It is a human

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right. You know there are those like Dan Scanlon from a Pro Life UK

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charity that says they cannot be a human right to abortion because of

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the unborn child. There are two rights were talking up the rights of

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the unborn child versus the rights of the mother. The way that

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countries have solved that is to say that where the fetus has the

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possibility to survive outside the womb, which is 20` 24 weeks, that is

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where the right of the fetus and of the mother or a less equal Sir if

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the mother 's life is in danger she can still have an abortion. The rest

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of the time it is the woman's life that prevails. You see it as a

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clear`cut issue. Again quoting this British doctor, no one was to see

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backstreet abortions, but there is not a clear`cut answer. I wonder if

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you see something that is quite grey free lot of people as a fairly

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clear`cut issue. `` for a lot of people. I understand if people are

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feeling strongly, and most of these are religious views, I think science

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has shown that there is no consciousness of the fetus and

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things like that. I can understand they feel passionate about it. My

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reality is the reality of the women. No woman will be stopped by a

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law or anybody else when she needs to have an abortion. You can flip

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the science either way. Professor Stuart Campbell perform scans every

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day of the week says that what eight fetus can do or feel also warned we

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find it is earlier and earlier. I do not want to go down that medical

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issue. You see it as a clear`cut issue. Do you have any sympathy or

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understanding of the point of view? Do you see any merit in the argument

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of those opposed to abortion? Abortion is not a choice or write it

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is murder, the denial of the right life. You have any truck with that

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kind of view? I do not. I see that women is desperate and women are

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desperate to end their pregnancy and they need help. And women if they do

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not get proper medical care they will do it themselves and they will

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die as a result. Again, it is the women that are poor who do not have

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access to information or money, women who have money can travel to

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other countries... In 1999 new setup women on ways which gets a ship

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registered under Dutch law, because abortion is legal in Dutch law, you

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go to international waters and then women can come onto that ship and

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you can provide not a surgical abortions, but with abortion pills

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up to 6.5 weeks of pregnancy. You have helped quite a few women like

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that. A Dutch anti`abortion group says that what you do is more about

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promoting an ideology than helping people. What you say to that? I

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think that if we are talking about promoting knowledge `` ideology that

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is what he does. He is a very fundamentalist Christian. People

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want to impose their views on others. The difference with women on

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ways is that we give an option for women. We are not forcing anybody to

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have an abortion. The people who do not want to have an abortion do not

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have to have one. It is the women who need one who can access it. I

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think it is the difference between the anti`abortion rights groups and

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the abortion rights groups is that we are providing the option for

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decision. The people who are against abortion want to impose their views

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on what they believe is right and wrong on women. Women, whether they

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are Catholic, Muslim, whatever religion they have abortions. You

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say you provide choice. You have been to various countries, but in

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2005 you set up a women on wet. This was information provided on the

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Internet where you can prescribe the anti`abortion pill to women which

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you post to them. They have to answer 25 questions. And then you

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give them one of these two drugs. Isn't that dangerous allowing women

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to get access to this kind of medication? Went `` medical abortion

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is a very safe procedure. The pills are on the essential list of

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medicines, so they are recognised as a life`saving medicines. It is a

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safer than using penicillin. The accommodation of these drugs is very

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safe. You think there is no danger at all. If you look at the National

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abortion Federation website it talks about possible side effects of one

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of the drugs, pain, cramps, convocations, I read that it also

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may include infections and incomplete abortions that may

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subsequently require surgical procedures, suction, in other

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words... It is similar to a miscarriage and has the same health

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risks. Most women handle a miscarriage by themselves. 20% of

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pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage. What about the other

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80%? You can actually plan and be near a place where there is medical

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care. The incompleteness of the abortion pill that I am talking

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about, whereby this Federation says you may require suction and that is

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surgical, is a woman going to present herself in a country where

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abortion is illegal to say I did not finish my DIY abortion myself. We

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are advising women if they have complaints, and it is very rare if

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they have complaints, it is rare if is an incomplete abortion and need

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for a surgical abortion, we advise women to say they have a spontaneous

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abortion. The doctor will not see the difference. With the abortion

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with pills that is almost never a real medical emergency which needs

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to be addressed immediately. But do you know that? Another person, from

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the Irish Family Planning Association, these drugs are safe

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but women taking them on there own sometimes do not know what they are

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actually taking. You do not know what the consequences might be of

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some of those tens of thousands of women who have applied for these

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drugs through your website. Yes, we do know. We follow up. We know how

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it goes. You can only provide this for women who are up to nine weeks

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pregnant. Do you know if the women are more advanced? You do not know

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because it is very the Internet. This is a service based on trust.

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She could be 16, 18, 20 weeks pregnant. If I ask you if you are

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allergic to penicillin and you say no but you know you are... Every

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relationship between a doctor and a patient is based on trust. Women are

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usually very scared and concerned about that health. They do not know

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what he implication is if they're pregnant any longer. Some may not

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know. Especially if you have an adverse `` adolescent. We advise

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women to do an ultrasound before so they know how far along. But they

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may not want to present themselves to an ultrasound. I do not say they

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will not be these cases. The women who reach out to us either direct,

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have access to Internet. `` the correct. Most women are able to

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determine their pregnancy quite accurately. If you have an abortion

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as a woman, you face a prison sentence of five to ten years. A

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doctor, 15 years. How do you feel about helping women raped the laws

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of their own country? `` great the laws. For some women, this is the

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only option they have. They're extremely grateful. You are putting

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them at risk of being arrested. We do not know. If that is a problem,

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we men can present themselves to a hospital and say they have had a

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miscarriage. It is exactly the same. Virtue except you are helping them

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break the law because you think the law is a bad one. I do. If you look

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at it in the broader perspective of human rights, the way to healthcare

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is a human right. These women are denied. This happens in democratic,

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legitimate governments. Ireland, abortion is severely restricted.

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These governments have come into power, reflect things be different

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positions on abortion the country shares. It does not mean it is

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within the international human rights standards. I do not think the

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fact that the country is democratic... The majority cannot

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make this decision. You like to be part of the political campaign when

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it comes to discussing abortion in the country. You put abortion very

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high on the political agenda for the election, the following year. With

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the women in waves work, it is. Abortion was legalised in Portugal

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two years later. But a country like Morocco, 2012, you are blocked from

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entering the country. US heavily criticised by one particular NGO

:18:25.:18:34.

that supports abortion. But they said they want to stop clandestinely

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abortion because it is dangerous. They say your tactics are

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provocative, they create a scandal and they did not help his

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organisation and finds the cause for legal abortion. This has been a

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criticism. We worked with a group, a civil rights organisation in

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Morocco, who invited us to come. We only go to countries by the

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invitation of local women organisations. Before we came, he

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said he supported the campaign. Only when the ship came in, he withdrew

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the support. It came from internal political issues. He demonstrates

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the point that you have an indigenous organisation that does

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not believe luxury apportions the tech place because they endanger the

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lives of women. `` backstreet abortions take place. There are

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something like 78 deaths a year from unsafe abortions. He prefers a

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different method. He has a meeting lined up with parliamentarians in

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Morocco. Did you except that you are eye`catching, provocative tactics,

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as he says, are perhaps counter`productive and maybe there

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is an alternative way? There are women in Morocco who needs of

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abortions. The situation is interesting in Morocco. In the

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pharmacies, you can buy medicines that you can use to do and abortion

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yourself. Women did not know about this, the doctor did not know about

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this. One of the aims is to launch a hotline for women to cause to get

:20:29.:20:32.

information on how many of these drugs they need and how to take

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them. The hotline is getting a lot of calls. You are a Dutch doctor.

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Liberal views, quite different. People may think you are a Trojan

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horse, that you want to bring in liberal ideas on sexuality. Are you

:20:57.:21:05.

the right champion of this cause? We are working together with

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organisations that are fighting for the same causes. It is not like it

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does not exist at all in the society. There are groups fighting

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to legalise abortion in Morocco. We work with them. There are different

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Dix won the news. The doctor's tactics have not led to the

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legalisation of abortion for the past ten years. This was a different

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way with a different goal. We have had a lot of support from

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organisations and people in Morocco. A different way to achieve the goal,

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use a. You were an active member of Greenpeace. They have their campaign

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of civil disobedience. Generally speaking, using any kind of civil

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disobedience, our campaigns are acceptable if the objective is

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desirable? When it is about achieving human rights or a social

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justice, acting civil disobedience is a Dick that is acceptable. The

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problem at the moment is a lot of intolerance from governments to

:22:20.:22:28.

civil disobedience, like in Russia. Also Julian Assange. Do you think

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any tactics are acceptable? What about the topless campaigns in

:22:40.:22:43.

Russia. They use their sexuality this way. If that is their choice,

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and it does not harm anybody, I do not see why it is not acceptable.

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What is different about our work is that it is helping women. It is

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giving women the access to medical abortion is that they need. It is

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not just civil disobedience or a media campaign. It is really

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providing services. Where everyone stands on the abortion debate, you

:23:14.:23:19.

have shown extreme commitment to your callers. You have learned very

:23:20.:23:24.

little money personally. You find it difficult to raise funds because if

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women cannot afford to pay, they get the service for free. It is a

:23:32.:23:37.

nonprofit organisation. You struggle to make money. Do you ever feel like

:23:38.:23:47.

giving up? No. Every e`mail that we get from a woman in need of support,

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help, is the reason to continue. We receive more than 130 e`mails ``

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130,000 e`mails per year. A lot of women know how to find us. All over

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the world. They're the reason we are existing. Thank you very much.

:24:12.:24:39.

The damaging storm which we had during the early hours of Monday

:24:40.:24:44.

continues to spread East into

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