Francois Pienaar - Captain, South African Rugby Team, 1993 - 1996 HARDtalk


Francois Pienaar - Captain, South African Rugby Team, 1993 - 1996

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affection. Several heads of state will be taking part in the memorial

:00:00.:00:00.

service or the state funeral of Mr Mandela.

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Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. HARDtalk is in

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Cape Town to meet Francois Pienaar who captained the South African

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rugby team when it won the World Cup in 1995. It was an occasion that

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produced one of the most electrifying moments in Nelson

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Mandela's leadership. He walked into the stadium wearing a Springbok

:00:33.:00:38.

jersey. It galvanised the team and united the nation. So, is the hope

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and optimism generated by that they alive now? `` that day.

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Welcome to HARDtalk. Nelson Mandela was your president, he was also your

:01:02.:01:10.

friend. Can you put into words what you are thinking now? I didn't

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realise I would be so emotional We knew that Mr Mandela's passing was

:01:18.:01:20.

imminent, and we were preparing for that. In actual fact, in a sense,

:01:21.:01:27.

for him to go to rest would be the best thing, because he has been

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suffering quite a bit. But when the story broke, I became incredibly

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emotional. And they don't understand why. The last couple of days has

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been a rollercoaster ride, sitting in front of the television watching

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what is happening all over the world, and what people are saying

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about him. It makes you feel so blessed to have had an opportunity

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to share intimate time with one of the greatest leaders the world has

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ever seen. Is that right? You shared what you call intimate moments with

:01:56.:02:02.

him? Yes, as a matter of fact, the story about the rugby has been well

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told. What hasn't been told us what happened after the rugby, and that

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is when our relationship really grew, and I got to know him better

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as a person. When he came to the UK, having tea with him, being

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invited back to tea and having discussions with him on the odd

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occasion, getting to know the man better than just in the sporting

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context. You know, on the sporting field, as such. I grew up in

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apartheid South Africa, and as a young kid, when Mr Mandela was a

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prisoner, the things that I heard about him were bad things. Sadly

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so, around the barbecue fires, people will talk about politics and

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sport. More about sport, because in this country we are crazy about

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sport. And if the name Nelson Mandela came up, it was accompanied

:02:56.:03:00.

by terrorist, madman... You grew up with that? I grew up with that. I

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don't know why he never challenged it, it is just the way I grew up as

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a kid. It would come in one ear and go out the other, but there, it is a

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words terrorist and bad man stuck. That is why went to university to

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find out what the man is really like, and that is when you really

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form an opinion. When he became president, from Brisbane to

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president, and I got the call to go on scene, you imagine how nervous I

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was. `` from prison to president. I could hear his voice, from outside

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his office, he has this magnificent voice, that he `` and he came

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walking through the door, and the first in a notice was he was a big

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man. When he said hello, he spoke to me in Afrikaans. Most of our

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conversation was in Afrikaans. I kept moving to English, and he kept

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switching back to Afrikaans. That was very special, in hindsight, I

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didn't realise then how special it was. Nelson Mandela had been out of

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the public eye, for three years or so, but you sense, coming here, that

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he had a real presence still. Absolutely. He will hopefully have a

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presence for a very long time, to come in our great nation. His magic

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is everywhere. We are talking to you today because of that electrifying

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moment when you are both in that stadium in 1995, when South Africa

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won the World Cup. Just described for me what you remember of that

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day. I remember it clearly. I have not even watch the video of a match,

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because it was such a special day. The overall emotion for us was the

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focus to win. Our focus was to win, on the match. As a captain, I didn't

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sleep the night before. You never sleep well tonight for a big match,

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because you are tossing and turning. It is the biggest thing that will

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ever happen in your life, you have one opportunity to make the right

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course, to ensure the team is relaxed, and you can imagine how

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tense the players were, having made the final, in your country, for the

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first time. We had a sense of what it meant to South Africa, so the

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focus for us was this match, the 80 minutes on the field, making sure

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that we could take every opportunity. Then we were in the

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changing room and you are still going through this thought

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processes. When there was a knock on the door. I looked up, there was a

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loud knock, and the door opened, and in walked Mr Mandela. I was

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incredibly emotional. Because.. We incredibly emotional. Because.. We

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can take some time. Thanks. You shouldn't be doing this when you are

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a sportsman. No, no. I thought... Take some time. Give me a slap! You

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were saying, you were there in the dressing room when you heard a

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knock. And he walked in, and there was a Springbok on his heart, and if

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you know history, rugby was for the white people in South Africa,

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predominantly the Afrikaners. At the end of apartheid it became a symbol

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of hate for the black people, which you can understand. We love our

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sport, and as an Afrikaner, and I am proud Afrikaner, when you grow up

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and you can play a bit of rugby, the and you can play a bit of rugby, the

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question is always asked, is he good enough? You think it can be a

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Springbok one`day? With the end of apartheid, it hurt the core of the

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Afrikaners, because sport is a release. When he walked into the

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dressing room wearing a Springbok on his heart, it was just, wow. You saw

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my reaction of it earlier, I had that reaction. You bite your lip,

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you nor your teeth, and he just stood there and he said, good luck,

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boys. My number was on his back. boys. My number was on his back

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That was me gone, I couldn't sing the anthem because I knew I would

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cry. I was so proud to be a South African that day. Do you think that

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galvanised the team? Did it make a difference? It had an effect. You

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realise it was much bigger than the game. It was the enormity of it

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struck me, but we had to get back to focus, because you can't be that

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emotional. This is 18 years down the line and I still get emotional when

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I think about it. You can't be that emotional, because if you don't

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focus you would lose, and we have trained so hard to win. We had

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played New Zealand on a number of occasions, it was a real opportunity

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to do something special. Immediately after we left, I took the team down,

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and the emotion was there, the buzz was there. It was almost like that

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magic came into our bodies and we were just ready to go. And then, you

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win the game, and there he is, standing there handing you the

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trophy. That was incredible. Incredible. When I walked up onto

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the podium, and Mr Mandela stuck out his hand and he said to me, and I

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still can't believe that he said it, he said, thank you Francois for

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what you have done for this country. I wanted to say, thank you for what

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you have done for this country. It is if he didn't ask or tell the ANC

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and the lack people in South Africa that this our team, they are playing

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for us, we are one team and one country. Embrace them. Then we

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wouldn't have had the support that we have. You say that gain was big,

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but it was bigger than a rugby game. How transformative wasn't for South

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Africa? Tremendous. Think it is very difficult to understand and

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contextualise. When the bus couldn't leave the stadium at night, I

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realised how big it was when I saw the images in the streets of people

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dancing, laughing, hugging one another, crying. Like we have seen

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images on television now that Mr Mandela's passing. I realised it was

:10:21.:10:24.

special, but I didn't realise how special it was. In the next week,

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there were so many stories that came out the next month, the next year,

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18 years later, it will still talk about that moment when the first

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time in country's history we were world champions together. We had a

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shot at something special. Sport gave us that opportunity. Before

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that day, I try to get into the mind of a South African rugby supporter.

:10:48.:10:53.

Those people in the stadium, what kind of people were they? How did

:10:54.:10:59.

they change? Predominantly white, mixed English and Afrikaans, but

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mostly Afrikaners. There would have been in the stadium, people who are

:11:05.:11:14.

politically against the ANC, against Nelson Mandela as a person, and what

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he stood for. But they didn't understand what he stood for until

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he walked out onto the field wearing the jersey. I didn't see this or

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hear this, but I can only tell you what my friends and family have told

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me. They said it was incredible. The stadium just started clapping their

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hands and shouting " Nelson, Nelson, Nelson" . What happened afterwards,

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big men, farmers, people from across the Afrikaans spectrum,

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businesspeople, farmers, educators, there were all in that stadium, and

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it wasn't a dry eye in the house. Because there was something special

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was happening, and they realised something special was happening.

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something special was happening That some thing special, how long

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did it last? Has it lasted until now? S yes. Because the moment was

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so big. `` yes, because the moment was so big it transcended time.

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Maybe time stood still, and maybe still is standing still, because of

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the opportunity we got as a nation. And it was sport and leadership that

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gave us that opportunity. So, in my life, yes. But it is an unfair

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question, because when I do meet people, and I travelled throughout

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South Africa, and I still hear stories of where people were in

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their village, or in the local community, when they were watching

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this game. So it is an unfair question. We really that moment. You

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question. We really that moment You will be aware that there are people

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who say that actually what happened to white people is that they learnt

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to love the man, but not necessarily what he stood for, which is the

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upliftment of all black people. Invariably that would happen, but I

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would like to counter that in saying that the people that I have met in

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the stories that I have heard is that they have changed forever. So,

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yes, they respected the man, but they respected his principles. And

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when they now reflect on his leadership, they wish they had them

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for so much longer `` they wish they had him. Much longer, we had him for

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such a short time. So there is that respect, and I think hope that the

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leaders are following his footsteps will have the same moral compass and

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values, and energy, and love for the country that Mr Mandela had. And do

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you think they do? Leaders that have followed him? I am not a politician,

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you know, we have some fantastic leaders in the ANC, but we always ``

:13:56.:14:04.

also have leaders who aren't doing so well in the ANC. That is why I

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get emotional when people are using Mr Mandela's name but not following

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his example. That makes me angry. What as a thank you and request that

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an iMac because we have so much still to do. We have a long road to

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travel, we are a young democracy. We have had an incredible start, when

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the world thought that it was going to turn it ruins, it didn't happen.

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And the reason it didn't happen was because of leadership. So, 20 years

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down the line, at the bottom of Africa, this country has so much to

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offer. In every aspect. To fulfil that promise, it is our duty. We

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cannot fail Mr Mandela in that. There are people who say he has

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already been failed, that South Africa remains an unequal country.

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That it has become more unequal. I That it has become more unequal I

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see that. Oftentimes we debate that as South Africans. I want to steer

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back and said that the opportunity still exists within the ANC. They

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are working towards a better life for South Africans. Corruption is

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unacceptable. We need to stamp it out. Listening to you just now, what

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it tells me is that it is as if the nation were built upon the shoulders

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of one man. Now that he is gone, people will start panicking and

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saying, can we make it? Not at all. There are some phenomenal leaders.

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They will pick it up and pass it on. The leaders of tomorrow as sitting

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at universities. They are 20 years old. They did not grow up in

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apartheid. They have grown`up in a vibrant South Africa. The rainbow

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nation. Some of the magazine a fantastic education. They will be

:16:16.:16:21.

the business and political leaders. `` some of them are getting a

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fantastic education. There are still our fantastic opportunities. Yuri

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Sportsmen, Nelson Mandela, he used sport. `` you are a sports man. I do

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not think he used sport, he understood the power of sport. We

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have not won everything in the past 50 years. He understood the power of

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sport. It can unite people in a way that nothing else can. If you look

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at sporting events across the world, what happened in London during the

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Olympics was phenomenal. Our nation came together. Bradley Wiggins, Tour

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de France, I can go on. I am proud that British people were winning

:17:14.:17:20.

such an event, and that we won gold medals for them. Nelson Mandela

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realised that. He realised the power of rugby in the Afrikaans committee.

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We had to train hard and make sure that we won the match. `` Afrikaans

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community. When we won the match, a fire was lit. Do you think Nelson

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Mandela made a calculated move in deciding that he was going to adopt

:17:45.:17:52.

rugby in this way? He might. My view is, having spent time with him, he

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was so genuine. It would not have just been a belated move to embrace

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rugby. He understood the importance of it, and he really cared. He was

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genuine. I have met a lot of people, like you. You know when people are

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real, and not real. He is real. What is it about sport that gets passed

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politics? The emotion, the opportunity of another chance. There

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is always another chance on the sporting field. If you stumble, next

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week and make it up and be on top of the world. Or you can go to the next

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World Cup and have another chance. Living in London for six years,

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sport has that. When England do well on the football field, when athletes

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too well, it is magic. People are smiling, they are happy. They are

:18:53.:18:58.

champions. The reason other opportunities next weekend. `` there

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is another opportunity. You have seen the seeds of South Africa's

:19:08.:19:11.

streets. They remind you of the moment after the World Cup. How

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important is it for South Africans to conduct themselves in the next

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week also in a dignified way? Very important. I was asked the question,

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what will happen if he passes? I said we would celebrate his legacy.

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We have two, we want to. What we have seen on television, I did not

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sleep. People waking up, getting in their cars, walking to his house.

:19:47.:19:54.

Now, if you look at the way people are gathering, how they are

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celebrating and dancing in the streets, to say thank you. We had

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this opportunity. It is now our opportunity to say thank you. What

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is it that South Africans can do to show the world, and the world is

:20:17.:20:21.

watching, to show the world that they will live up to the great

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promise that Nelson Mandela made? We have already done that. If you look

:20:26.:20:30.

of the last 20 years, what South Africa has done, it has been

:20:31.:20:36.

phenomenal. If you travel around the globe, there is a lot of work in

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many countries, the resale of work in America, in Europe, across the

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globe. In the last 20 years, when everyone thought we would stutter

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and end up in ruins, we have not. We have been an example of success

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because of him. He has not been active in politics for a while. His

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legacy will always be with each and every one of us. We have a duty to

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remind people that are not following his footsteps that they should. What

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about you personally? What is it that you do differently now? What is

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it that you do that you would not have done, had she `` had you not

:21:26.:21:35.

mass Nelson Mandela? His love sets apart from a leader I have met. The

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best lesson I have learnt is no fear. For his jealous, the people

:21:44.:21:49.

who did terrible things to him in his colleagues, some of these people

:21:50.:21:57.

were killed after he came out of prison in 1993. Again, the country

:21:58.:22:07.

was on its edge. His love for the goodness in people is so infectious.

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In practical terms, how has that changed you? Are the things that you

:22:18.:22:25.

have done, that you think... I founded a foundation. The reason I

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did that is because of him, and because of my other mental. He was

:22:32.:22:37.

our coach in the World Cup. We help kids get through school, kids who do

:22:38.:22:44.

not have money. I do not think they would have done that. It has been

:22:45.:22:50.

going for a while. You have? Sons. Nelson Mandela was the godfather.

:22:51.:22:55.

What have you been telling them this week? We have been talking quite a

:22:56.:23:05.

bit about it. I got pulled by one or the other winner is something on

:23:06.:23:08.

television. They say, dad, have you seen this? They get it, they are 15

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and 14. I thought they would not get it. It was a long time ago. They

:23:17.:23:28.

still remember it. They are very blessed. This week of all weeks,

:23:29.:23:32.

still remember it. They are very blessed. This week of all weeks

:23:33.:23:37.

argue and optimistic man about South Africa? Absolutely optimistic. Very

:23:38.:23:45.

much so. Francois Pienaar, Thank you.

:23:46.:24:24.

We not expecting any major problems from the this week. It is looking

:24:25.:24:32.

altogether a bit quieter. We have some weight and windy weather at the

:24:33.:24:36.

moment. That is thanks to this weather front pushing its way into

:24:37.:24:39.

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