Omar Abdullah - Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir HARDtalk

quell the protests. On Tuesday, the prime Minister resigned. Now it is

time for a HARDtalk. Welcome to a very special edition of

HARDtalk from India, being recorded in front of an audience here in

Delhi. My guest is one of the country 's most intriguing young

politicians. Omar Abdullah is Chief Minister of the long disputed state

of Jammu and Kashmir. Once described as the most dangerous place on

earth. What are the prospects for peace on the frontline between India

and Pakistan? Chief Minister, is a great pleasure

to have you HARDtalk. I want to start with a question, your estate

is Jammu and Kashmir. Would it be fair to suggest that it is very far

from being a normal Indian states? I wouldn't use the word very far. It

is further from being a normal Indian state than any of us would

like. There's a lot closer to being normal than it has been in the last

two and a half decades. The basic fact is that a very substantial

proportion of the people that you represent do not accept, recognise,

the legitimacy of Indian rule. How do you quantify very substantial? I

haven't seen any numbers to indicate what you are suggesting. Yes there

are sections of Jammu and Kashmir that don't accept being part of

India. They haven't accepted since 1947. What percentage would you put?

It changes. It depends on the circumstances on the ground. When

things are tense but you have a situation where there has been an

incident of human rights, the number of people who accept they are

separatists by nature increases. Let me ask you, you accept the notion

that Jammu and Kashmir is permanently an integrated part?

Absolutely. I have no doubt. I've never had any doubt. Jammu and

Kashmir is a part of India. It is a different matter that I have

complaints. They have every right to complain because they believe in the

notion of Jammu and Kashmir being a part of India. The amount of power

they receded to the centre, that is something open discussion. Here is

another way in which they seem abnormal. In the history of the

State since the independence war and the creation of Jammu and Kashmir,

it has been dominated by one family. Your family. Your

grandfather was Prime Minister, your father was chief minister several

times, you are now Chief Minister. In a thriving, open democracy it

seems unlikely that one family would provide all of the leaders. The

suggesting India hasn't had a thriving democracy? We have had a

thriving democracy since 1947. If you had the researchers quantify the

number of years that my grandfather, father, and myself have had the

chair, it is a lot less than the other people put together as well.

The other way in which people question the notion that Jammu and

Kashmir can be regarded as a normal state is the military presence. How

many Indian security personnel are on your soil? I wouldn't be able to

share an accurate number with you. One because they wouldn't have the

exact number, two is that even if I did, I don't think it would be

prudent from a security point of view. The 600,000, 700,000 number

gets thrown around and is incorrect. It would mean the lion share of the

Indian Army is in Jammu and Kashmir. That ignores the other frontiers

with Pakistani and China. A you saying that you genuinely don't know

how many Indian security forces are on your soil? It is not a constant

number. Ads and flows according to the situation. It is a product of

the tensions on the border whether it be with China or Pakistan. It is

also a product of the internal security. It still seems highly

militarised society. You travel everywhere with a high level of

personal security. You live in a heavily fortified compound. It seems

the security forces believe there is an active and real threat to your

personal safety. Is that true? It's true. I began this interview by

telling you it wasn't as normal as other residents. Is it also true

that you are encouraged a system of village elders to bring democracy

and representation down to the very local level, and we have seen last

few years many of those village elders being intimidated and

threatened. A few have been killed. There have been some of the local

government representatives who have been targeted by militants. As a

percentage of the number of people they were elected, it is still not

as large as the question would suggest. The context in train to

establish is why you seem to believe it is acceptable for the military,

the Indian army, to have special legal protection. I am one of the

people who don't feel it is acceptable. I believe that while the

Indian army requires legal cover to operate internally, because there

been used for internal security. It needs legal sanction to do that. I

believe there is a distance to be drawn between legal sanction and the

sort of carte blanche offered. If you are saying you oppose the armed

forces in your territory, DC you agree with Amnesty International

which says that law has been used to facilitate serial systematic and

grave human rights abuses including disappearances, rape, torture? The

scrums are gone unpunished because of that law? I won't get into an

argument with what Amnesty International has hasn't said. I'm

willing to accept that in the course of the 25 years in Jammu and Kashmir

there have been human rights violations. I won't use the word

systematic as a don't think there have been systematic violations. I

will concede that have been violations, but it will be

impossible for them to happen. The wet systematic, I would disagree

with. The point for you is that you might know more about the abuses if

you pursue job promise to deliver a truth and reconciliation commission.

Your party committed itself for a truth and reconciliation... No we

didn't. I actually floated the idea of the truth and reconciliation

committee Renault is in the opposition. He didn't mean its? It

wasn't part of the manifesto, because who am I to promise that?

You are the chief minister. When it is setup, it has to come from the

governments of India and Pakistan as a confidence building measure for

people of Jammu and Kashmir. The answers are required from both

sides. The problem is that we often only when to hold the Indian side

accountable. We don't want to ask questions of the other side. I am

all for truth and reconciliation commission. Would it not give India

the moral high ground if you were serious about punishing those

including in the armed forces who committed grievous abuses on the

Indian side of control? It's not as though the punishment isn't being

handed out. A few weeks ago the army has given sanction for court martial

in the incident that happened in 2010 in a remote area of Kashmir

where we believe innocent people were killed by the army. It's not a

case that has been swept under the carpet or where the armed forces

have allowed just as not to biggest charged. -- discharged. We aren't

ignoring the problem. You said that in the end it isn't up to you, it is

up to the government in Delhi. Isn't the truth that, and they don't want

to belittle this, are in and extra merry difficult position because the

matters that make up the future of your state and not in your hands?

Defence of the realm is central responsibility. You got power after

President 's rule where the centre ran affairs in Kashmir. We know

through the course of your history that every time there is trouble,

disturbances, protests on the streets, the Central government has

the ability to impose President 's central role. It is going to happen

every time the centre wants it to happen. The Indian Constitution

allows the Centre to impose President 's rule from Delhi if the

situation warrants it. Let me, for the second the audience and those

who don't remember the recent history of Jammu and Kashmir,

Central rule was not imposed in 2010... Sorry, 2008, because of

disturbances. It was because the coalition government fell apart. It

was a political disagreement that has been imposed, not the internal

security environment. We have teased out some of the challenges he faced

as chief minister on the security front. Let's take an overview of

security. I talked about Bill Clinton in 2000 saying that it was

the most dangerous place in the world. Right now, there's your

territory feel like one of the most dangerous places in the world to

you? Most certainly not. Not from an internal perspective or even an

external perspective. What about when you hear the Al Qaeda

leadership saying he wants to see a new Jihad in Kashmir. Even security

talk about danger after US combat forces left Afghanistan in 2014, the

danger of militants moving into Kashmir. I don't see that happening

from all the intelligence have available to me. From the reports I

have read, I understand we need to be cautious about what could happen

as a result of US forces leaving Afghanistan, don't see the sort of

predictions they were made coming true. It would mean any gains we

have made and Jammu and Kashmir had been due to external factors. I

believe most of the progress has been largely because of internal

affairs. I read lots of statements from military sources in India still

talking up the security threat faced in Kashmir. A single exaggerate the

security threat in Kashmir? In part, yes. Why would they do that? It's a

long story. The short version is that this argument about 2014 is

largely been used so the armed forces remain as it is. Which

suggest to me that you have doubts about the security forces that you

have to work with. I have no doubt about the security forces. I believe

there have been a handful of aberrations. But by and large, they

have done a good job under difficult circumstances. There are

disagreements that we have from time to time. One of them is over the

special powers act. Is Pakistan still offering important,

significant support and encouragement to militants on their

side of the border and getting them to go across the lines of control

into your territory to commit acts of violence? Yes. What is is a

evident -- what is your evidence I am not carrying the folders with me

but I could share with you intelligence reports about the

presence of the camps and the lines of control. The actual footage from

our vehicles, showing these people being facilitated across the border

and transcripts of conversations with their handlers sitting in

Pakistan. There is no shortage of evidence available. When Indian

military sources are muted, the building and construction of a

wall, we are talking about a wall that goes far beyond anything seen

in the world, ten metres high and fortified with bunkers. Is that

something you want to see? That will is not intended for an anti-

militancy. What is it for? Is in the event of a. It is not for... Do you

want to see it occurs some nipple in Kashmir has said it will turn

Kashmir into a prison. It is being built in my state. It is not being

built in Kashmir. Do you want to see in any of your territory 's? I do

not want to see any part of my state with barbed wire. That is not the

reality I live in. Jammu and Kashmir has been invaded more than twice I

Pakistan and China. I cannot wish my history away. It Pakistan were to

stand up and say they have no ulterior motive as fires Kashmir is

can is earned an alert us live and let live. I will be the first person

to stand up and say we do not need a wall. It is interesting you say

that. Pakistan's position is somewhat Compper catered but if we

go back to 2005, Musharraf acknowledged that Pakistan will not

ever see Kashmir integrated into their territory. He talked about the

militarisation, a greater degree of autonomy but very much implicit in

everything he said was that in the long run, Pakistan will accept that

Jammu and Kashmir is not their territory and will remain Indian

territory. Surely, Pakistan has already been... Made a significant

part way down that road. I think we lost eight great opportunity with

was a rough. If the current government in Pakistan will accept

what he had laid out as his 4-point programme, we would be much closer.

He is talking trade, he is talking bilateral relations. Yes but not one

word about Kashmir that is different from the previous position. You are

not prepared to accept that Pakistan has a good faith interest in

negotiating a permanent settlement of the Kashmir State? I have seen no

evidence. Do you talk to Pakistan yourself? No. We do not have very

good neighbourly relations. (LAUGHTER)

There are some people in Pakistan would like nothing more than to see

the end of me. That does not make for good relations. With the

greatest of respect it seems that the real threats that you face, day

to day is from actual elements from your own people. There are people

inside Jammu and Kashmir who regard you as a collaborator. Of course

they are. With whose support though? Why do they need anyone's support?

ACU as a traitor. As much as they would like guns to grow on trees in

Kashmir, they do not. We have no arms factories. All the weapons in

Kashmir to keep this militancy alive come from across the light of

control. The instructions come from there. Let's also recognise the fact

that today, the majority of militants operating in Jammu and

Kashmir are not Kashmiri. There was a time in the early 90s when a time

in the early 90s. It might surprise you to know that at last count, more

than 60 different nationalities have either been caught or killed as a

result of the militants. Bosnians, Chechnya and is, Sudanese. It is not

as though that this image you are trying to present that Kashmiris are

out to get me. It is not true. There are a handful of people. As we talk

I sense you're very strong commitment. Your commitment to being

a part of India. I do sense a conflict within you. There have been

moments when your confidence in that future seemed to sleep. I think it

came in March of last year when there was a great deal of unrest

after the execution of a young man who was convicted of involvement in

the violent attack on the Indian parliament in 2001. He was executed

last year and many people in your state were unhappy. There were riots

and and people were killed on the streets. You are reported to have

said this at the funeral of one young man who was killed in street

protest. You said: is this why we have been holding the flight of this

country so that again and again I have to answer for every bullet?

Yes. That does not mean I'm advocating a solution outside the

Constitution. I want accountability from the security forces. I want to

bring it back to politics. It is election season in India. In the

next four months, the nations voters will go to the polls. A very strong

possibility that the next leader of India will be the leader of the BJP.

He has very strong opinions on Kashmir. He says that full

integration has to be pushed forward. The idea of special stages

where Indians not from the state are not allowed to buy land in Kashmir

has to be done away with. What is your view? The problem is that when

he made the statement and said that he was ready for a discussion on

Article 370 I said I am also ready for discussion. Name the time and

place and we will discuss it. He could not reply himself and got one

of his minions to reply who said he was too busy. And to make it worse,

he is also far too important to discuss it with someone like you. If

that is the theory is nurse -- is that if the seriousness that he

views it with. He is the next Prime Minister of India. It does not

matter. Constitutionally, he cannot revoke Article 370 without calling

into question accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India. As Prime Minister,

if you want to rewrite that then he is welcome. But I don't think it

would be so foolhardy. I was struck by word that came from the mouth of

your own uncle. When he said that Kashmiris feel closer to Pakistan.

He said that India is the enemy. He is your own uncle. Did you...

Somebody who I have public disagreements with. Did you

recognise the feelings, the basic feelings he was talking about?

Recognise the way? In yourself. No. In my state, I told you at the

beginning that there are people that believe in what he said. He believes

in what he's saying, I am not sure about that. Is for him to answer. If

he ever appears on HARDtalk. I would be lying if I told you that there

aren't people in Jammu and Kashmir who see the future outside the

Indian system. How many of them I do not think it is possible to

quantify. We have to and they are. Thank you for being on HARDtalk.

We continue with a very unsettled look to the weather at the moment

with some heavy showers still continuing through today. It will

also feel increasingly cold as we start to pick up a bit more of an

easterly