Cardinal Peter Turkson HARDtalk


Cardinal Peter Turkson

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make Victoria which is facing the worst conditions in five years. Now

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it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. It is nearly a

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year since a new Pope was installed but still the same problems dogged

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the Catholic Church. A committee on the rights of the child has

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criticised the Vatican over its failure to deal decisively with

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child sexual abuse by priests. Gay-rights activists still attacked

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the Churchward stands on homosexuality and the Vatican 's

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finances have been under scrutiny and investigation. Last year

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Cardinal Peter Turkson from Ghana was tipped to become the first black

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Pope and at 65 he is young enough still to achieve that. He is calling

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for financial reforms and action against poverty and inequality. But

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does the Catholic Church have the moral authority to take a lead on

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such issues? Cardinal Peter Turkson, welcome to

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macro three. Thank you why do you say that the financial crisis was

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part of a result of moral feelings? All financial transactions and

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financial instruments, it takes a moral decision. It involves

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decision-making and every decision-making is an expression of

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morale at you. That is why we can extend consideration to everything

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that happened then in an ethical way. You are advocating reform by

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creating a global public authority and a global bank that will

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consider, in particular, developing countries and their interests.

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Essentially, the poor, and they may well be from developing countries

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but even within developed countries, it is basically to have the

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financial system that we have, to think about the marginalised, those

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that it missed out. It is something that we can do, we can have an

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inclusive system of economics and finance so that everybody gets

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considered. That is very much the tone. He is a modest man who likes

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to use public transport and will not live in splendour. At the end of

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last year, in an exhortation, he said not to share your wealth with

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the poor is to steal from them and take away their livelihood. It is

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not our goods that we hold by the Bears. It sounds like Marxist

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doctrine. The social doctrine of the Church, which provides guidance for

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these operations and systems, is based on a couple of principles.

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Apart from the affirmation of the dignity of every human person which

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needs to be respected, there is much about the common good of people.

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That means that we should be concerned about the well-being of

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all of us. The Professor of economics at the University of

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Buenos ivories, says is this an invitation to confiscate the riches

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of the Vatican or is the Pope only referring to the riches outside of

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the Vatican? The Vatican is rich, isn't it? What does it mean, the

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Vatican is rich? Are you talking about the arts in the Vatican

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Museum? Are you talking about the wealth of the diocese is spread

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around the world? The Vatican made 90 million euros profit last year.

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On the contributions you get from people and so on. So if... The

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grandeur of the Catholic Church, the paintings, the fact that the Pope is

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effectively a head of state. So when somebody like that Professor makes

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the point it jars doesn't it? What the professor is overlooking is that

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the Vatican, as the head of the Catholic Church, supports over

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500,000 local churches around the world. These churches are not like

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those in London or New York. Churches where the pastors and the

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servants need to be supported. It is generally accepted that the aid

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distributed around the world is through the offices of Catholic

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agencies. You are not exactly a byword for fiscal prudence at the

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Vatican? You have had your problems there. When the EU money-laundering

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monitoring body reported, it gave a mixed report to the Vatican but

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expressed surprise that regulators had not carried out more inspections

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of the make Vatican Bank. There was an investigation in Italy because

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some Italian businesses may have used that bank as a tax haven or a

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fiscal paradise. This is something that we need to recognise. The

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Vatican Bank, some would prefer to rip that they prefer to refer to it

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as a financial institution, its presence in Italy, and the fact that

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it did what it did was tempting for people who wanted to escape, and so

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wanted to make use of the bank... Pope Francis does not know how the

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scandal will end. It can end if, for example, the bank has a mixed staff,

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from different parts of the world. They cannot be predominantly Italian

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or some local group. If you have a mix of staff, that can be dealt

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with. But to accept that there is a problem and that when you go about

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and talk about... This is a problem for everybody. The financial

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crisis, people look over your shoulder and wonder. There is no

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denying the fact that an institution this old with structures this old

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they have gathered moss. It is just fair enough to recognise that. Just

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as we have, in the history of the Church, we are very familiar with

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abuses and individual rights and challenging the Church to clean up

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certain things. Whether you take it in the form of saints who agitate

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for reform, or something about -- or something else, we know. There is no

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human institution without failures. Looking at you personally, would it

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be say that you are liberal on social and economic justice but

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fairly orthodox on social matters like homosexuality? We are using

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vocabulary which have attained meaning in different areas. In what

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sense would you consider me liberal? You ask for an equitable

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distribution of wealth. That would just be responsive to the social

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concerns of the Church. What about being responsive to the concerns of

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people who have the kind of sexuality that the Church does not

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particularly condoned, particularly homosexuals. When Uganda discussed

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its anti-gay bill, you said that the intensity of the reaction about gay

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matters is probably commensurate with tradition. What do you mean? In

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several traditional societies in Africa, there is nothing about the

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same sex relations, they are not reckoned with. They are taboo. They

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were not tolerated in society. That is what it means. It is still there.

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Nigeria also legislated against this. It is a reflection of this

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traditional sense. You say, let's understand that. The tormenting,

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persecuting, imprisoning, killing of gay people in countries which is

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going on in Africa, let us understand that? I am just

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asking... When somebody comes asking about Wei group of people act in a

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special way, it would be good to have people to understand the

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anthropology is behind that. It is not the same as saying that it is

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justifiable or whatever else. But how can you try to end the

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persecution of gay people and tolerated elsewhere. If a group of

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people in society, place such a high premium on childbirth as a source of

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increase of the local population and because in those local societies

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that suffer so much, infant mortality is so high, for a

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community like that increasing its membership is hugely important.

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Therefore when any lives cannot do that it is problematic. What about

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female genital mutilation? Also deeply embedded. You going to say,

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let understand that? What is necessary to understand, I mean,

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there is nobody that can understand the future of the world without

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having a certain amount of historical understanding. That

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understanding easy to consider the situation now and only then can you

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say, in the light of what we know, are was still going to go on in this

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way? That's where you make the decision. It sounds like you're

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trying to explain and to some extent excuse those practices. Explanation

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is not the same as justification, there is a difference in that. When,

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for example, we are talking about this, let's talk about the slave

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trade. It is something that happened. In that time in history,

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people found reason to do that. But we condemn it. You are not

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condemning for example... You have said that Africa's hostility to

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homosexuality will protect it from child sex abuse. You have been

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criticised for saying that, Cardinal, because you are conflating

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two things. It is not conflated. It is people moving between lines of

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argument and thinking. All of this started when a gentleman came to me

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asking about this and they said, this is the situation, the rights of

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these people need to be safeguarded and respected. But then the

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questions about why we have certain African communities that do this,

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this is a traditional viewpoint. Saying that does not mean that we

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must hang on to that viewpoint. It is useful for an outsider to

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understand why people can have that view. You must regret conflating the

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two. The English Archbishop said that homosexuality is irrelevant to

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the child abuse problem. We've been very careful to keep the two issues

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well apart. I accept that. Talking about child sexual abuse, we have

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just had the publication of the report by the UN, which has been

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interrogating Vatican officials about child sexual abuse, which has

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been a huge scandal overshadowing the Catholic Church. To take one

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example, it says that it wants the Vatican to open its files on the

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kind of child sex abuse that has gone on. Why won't the Vatican do

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that? Why won't the Vatican be more transparent about the child sexual

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abuse cases listed Mark we may not readily conclude -- readily conclude

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that the Vatican keeps files on sex abuse around the world. The Vatican

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recognises the need for help for all of the victims. Shown interest in

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cool operating to help victims of sexual abuse. If there are files on

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any of these, they can be found in the Darya sees. That is where the

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perpetrators are to be found. --dioces. But the fact it can can

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say, we want to see the finals. -- Vatican. People want an answer for

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the question, does the church report abuses by Chris to the secular law

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enforcement authorities in the country 's? That that they do

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definitely. But that is not the reports we have seen. We have heard

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about parish priests being moved on to another parish and even to

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another country. When we get to talking about this, a certain amount

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of understanding is to be... The Vatican WriteNow, with the

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understanding it has obvious problem, has agreed to col operate

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with any body set up for this. -- cooperate. It recognises civil

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authorities of wherever a priest lives, ensures they are responsible

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and in charge of this. Any perpetrator or anyone who abuses a

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child to face the State of wherever he is. But the arguments are not

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convincing because this report has just been issued and it says that

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the Church has implemented policies that have led to the continuation of

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the abuse and the impunity and perpetrators. They have investigated

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this. What are the policies? (CROSSTALK) I go back and refer to

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certain history. This is the case, the reporters and those who made the

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report, for those of you who would understand, certainly, with the

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passage of time, our understanding of this phenomenon on has increased

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and changed. There was a time that when bishops got cases of priest

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being abusive of children, they thought it could be dealt with by

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taking the person for treatment at a centre. Based on our understanding

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at that time, they thought the issue could be done with and taken care of

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by certain priests... That's how they do it. How do you do it now, do

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you remove priests from their church? No. The situation has

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improved and it is recognised that a treatment centre doesn't quite deal

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with the issue. The understanding has changed. What do you do? Bishops

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don't transfer priests... Do you remove them from their post in the

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church? They will not. Will they be removed? Removed means... Will they

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be removed from their post? Yes they will and when they do that the dish

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has the new process to go through. If the feeling is that he will be

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later sized, he will be. I think a bishop will want to help the priest

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himself. Do you think categorically, now, all the

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criticism you have had from victim support groups, like the director

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of... We must insist on tangible action to help vulnerable children

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and protect their bodies. Not vague pledges that protect the reputation

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of this institution. Can I ask you cardinal, is the church ready once

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and for all to take steps to ensure that never again will a child be

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abused by a member of the Catholic Church -- clergy and if they are,

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will you take action? The answer is yes. It was not obliged to sign up

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to this it accepted to do it. They have made it clear, they said that

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the protection of children is the top. It set up a commission in the

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Vatican headed Ivy Archbishop of Boston, -- by the, to ensure this is

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taken care of in due order with regard for due legal... Where you

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have members and victims support groups on this panel? -- will use.

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Sure, there are experts on that. Do you accept that critics have said

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and the issue of sexuality and the church 's few on abuse has

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overshadowed the good work the Catholic Church does all over the

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world? It hasn't... Has it overshadowed? With due respect for

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victims of abuse who need to be helped in all senses and in all

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cases, that has certainly been the case, that the good work of the

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church has been overshadowed in Finch is only by this, is true. In

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the intestinal. But the church attaches great importance to the

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well-being of the is. Good work doesn't need to be... It is like the

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view you have, you don't it out at the same time. Talking of good

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work, the good work the church should be engaged in, interfaith

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dialogue is very important. You haven't contributed much to this

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have you smack arguably, you have operated to the detriment of good

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interfaith dialogue between Muslims and Christians. That's not true.

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When I was in Ghana, before I came to the Vatican, I was the president

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of the world Congress for religious peace, and my vice president was a

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Muslim. He might be in London at this time for a conference.

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Subsequently, I was the head of a peace Council whose vice president

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was Muslim. Can explain why I put to you, because when I put that -- in

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2012 you showed a you Tube video called Muslim Demographics. It was

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alarmist. The video said that by 2050 fronts will be an Islamic

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republic and there are those of you -- Frantz. You were criticised...

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That video clip was sent to me by another bishop. The title in the

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mail did not say that. The title of the video clip that was sent to me

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was demographic problems. I was using it to demonstrate demographic

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albums in Europe. You are being alarmist, saying they would be more

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Muslims in future. This is what I am trying to say. It was a

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demonstration of the low fertility weight -- fertility rate and the

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concern was that... The contraceptive culture of western

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Europe compared with Muslims breeding, that is alarmist. That's

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not the point. When the local population drops, it means that any

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newcomer into that society will not be well received. It was to ensure

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that the birth rate in Europe does not lead to... How can you show this

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kind of you Tube clip. You are a senior cardinal. You should have

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access to better advice than that. That is the case. Because I trusted

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another bishop who sent me that. As I tried to say, it was not... You

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should have checked it. I should have trusted the source -- checked

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the source. You will have to be careful in the future. How can you

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go without trusting people? Do you think these controversies we have

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discussed have dented your chances of ever becoming the first black

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Pope? This has never been my vision or desire. I just want to be of

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service to God 's people. It is not a question of a chance for it chance

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for this or that, that's not an issue for me. Cardinal Peter Turkson

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thank you for coming onto HARDtalk. Some dry weather through the week

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ahead. The news does not yet much better. -- get. Still spells of

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heavy rain at times. Ahead. Still spells of heavy rain and more

:24:25.:24:25.

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