Browse content similar to Livia Jaroka MEP - Fidesz Party, Hungary. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk. | :00:00. | :00:12. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. Europe's Roma have been discriminated against for | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
centuries. They live in poor communities on the margins of | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
society. Richer nations fear an influx of poorer migrants from | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
eastern Europe in search of jobs and benefits and the Roma have borne the | :00:24. | :00:30. | |
brunt of such suspicion. Now, Switzerland's vote to curb | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
immigration from the EU has touched a nerve, with some predicting a | :00:34. | :00:35. | |
hardening of attitudes right across Europe towards migrants. We speak to | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
Hungarian MEP Livia Jaroka. The only Roma in the European parliament. Is | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
she worried that the mood against the Roma is getting worse? | :00:45. | :01:14. | |
Livia Jaroka, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. How worried are you that | :01:15. | :01:27. | |
the mood against the Roma in particular is hardening? We have | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
noticed it already 20 years ago when the system changed in Eastern | :01:31. | :01:37. | |
Europe. We felt the anti- Roma sentiment was going around Europe. | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
Cost of the economic situation worsening, today we see a rise in | :01:41. | :01:51. | |
anti- Roma. But the European Parliament started at ten years ago. | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
When you look at the referendum in Switzerland, not a member of the EU | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
but has a close association and has access to the single market, the | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
referendum vote there to curb immigration from the EU is a sign | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
that richer countries in Europe, like Switzerland, are becoming even | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
more less tolerant of migrants? But at the same time since 2004, the | :02:15. | :02:23. | |
second big wave of the EU widening, there has been a lot of people who | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
left their country is already and as immigrants have contributed to the | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
economies of different western European countries. Evidently those | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
countries weren't aware of the post- Communist tendencies that might | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
occur and have occurred. So they take it as a surprise that people | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
started to move, although it was predictable. As an anthropologist we | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
saw it much earlier, that people from poorer regions would leave. | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
Also, any Western European countries weren't aware that if they started | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
to privatise Eastern Europe many of the jobs would it gone and this is | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
what happened. We will talk about the reasons and what happened after | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
1989, when we saw the dismantling of the Soviet bloc and so on, and the | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
first wave of enlargement in 2004 and again in 2007. Saying that the | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
Swiss referendum, it was said the vote was a total gift to the | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
eurosceptics. They can point to Switzerland as a sturdy nation that | :03:24. | :03:25. | |
is turning its back on EU immigration. This is a major | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
headache for the European Union commission. And you are a member of | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
the European Parliament, he want to seek re-election perhaps in May? It | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
might be a major issue for those who are looking at it from the | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
immigration point of view. For those who are looking at it from the | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
national and economic point of view, and looking at the whole European | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
union point of view, you will see that this sort of migration was | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
first of all predictable, second of all these countries need these | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
migrants... But the argument is getting through. When you see a | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
spokesperson for David Cameron who said the vote in Switzerland | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
reflected growing concern about the impact of the free movement of | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
people. This is what of the main pillars of the EU. The point I make | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
is this, how can the EU commission, its leaders, insist on this basic | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
pillar remaining, but at the same time acknowledging that people are | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
wary of migration within the EU? We do have to keep the free movement as | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
one of the main values. Therefore, ten years ago we started to create | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
the European Roma strategy, to make sure the poorest people of the EU | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
are going to find their place. So, this sort of tension that is | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
happening now is not going to come out. But, already, ten years back, | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
we felt these tensions. We knew this sort of poverty in Europe that | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
creates this tension and create the feeling, the fear, but others are | :04:53. | :04:54. | |
going to take their jobs, feeling, the fear, but others are | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
that strategy isn't working. Take the words of one Hungarian | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
billionaire, who has done a great deal of research on the Roma. He | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
says since they became EU citizens, the living conditions of the Roma | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
people across Europe deteriorated. I wouldn't say so but it has been | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
better, that's the shore. He says the shocking thing is, those are his | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
words, the shocking thing is that their living conditions have | :05:26. | :05:27. | |
deteriorated. If you look at the statistics, 90% of Roma people live | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
in poverty. They are twice as likely to be unemployed, 24% is the average | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
across the EU. I came to the parliament in 2004 to create a Roma | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
strategy in Europe. When the new government came into presidency, we | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
have spoken to Prime Minister is on this. But it was only the Hungarian | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
president in 2011 who was ready to look at the question. If you | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
remember, it was after the first expulsions from France. There was an | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
openness for this in the Council. Situation is not what it was ten | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
years ago. And it comes to political commitment from the countries. Ten | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
years ago, Europe didn't know about the Roma to the extent they know | :06:17. | :06:18. | |
now. It wasn't on the political agenda. He pushed it through 27 | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
countries. Seven different huge parties in the European Parliament, | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
to find a compromise. There is a need for a European move on this | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
sort of poverty. It's on the agenda it is on the agenda in a negative | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
way, in many ways. One example, many people have the possession in Europe | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
that the Roma people, the cause of this marginalisation, twice as | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
likely to be unemployed for instance, that they will go to | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
Western European countries where there is a better welfare and | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
benefits system. -- perception in Europe. These people are escaping | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
economic turbulence. Since the 90s, they haven't had jobs. Three | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
generations without seeing their parents go to work. Before that, | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
there was full unemployment in Europe because of comment is on. You | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
are accepting that they do go to richer countries? -- because of | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
comment is on. The radiant prime minister said to HARDtalk last year | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
that in answer to benefit tourism it's a specific problem of the Roma | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
community. -- Romanian prime minister. He admitted it was a | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
concern for countries like France, the UK and Germany. We don't know to | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
what extent Roma are in this game. What we learned from the recent | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
research is that actually this immigration is a totally positive | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
outcome to all of these countries. What we see it, this sort of | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
turbulence and anti-immigration, it usually comes before the election. | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
You know that. All around Eastern and Western Europe we ask why | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
governments aren't doing enough, why they aren't using EU money, why they | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
aren't doing anything. Many of them don't dare to because of the | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
elections. You are rejecting that comment that he made, that it's a | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
specific problem with benefit tourism as regards to the Roma | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
community, the Romanian committee in this situation? Merret I have two. | :08:15. | :08:22. | |
-- community in this situation. I have two. People only thing their | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
homes to find jobs in other places. People would leave their homes do | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
not work in other places. You can imagine what a huge step it is when | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
these people do this. Not mentioning that why we are addressing this | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
issue, as well as trafficking and other rights, issues that came up | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
with this sort of poverty. The reason why we are also addressing | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
this from inside the community and also as a parliamentarian in the | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
European Parliament in the name of the European Roma, I am addressing | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
this question, saying many of the people are coming here because | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
of... They are being trafficked. Any children are victims of this sort of | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
new system of migrating possibilities. -- many children. But | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
these countries don't realise that they cannot export their poverty, so | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
they have to use the EU money, the huge funds available, the programmes | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
we have organised and opened up in the last years. Because this will | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
solve the problem. Looking at another example, another reason why | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
people say the Roma are marginalised, is one senior Greek | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
diplomat, of course Greece is holding the current presidency of | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
the EU, says that people see them as living a kind of separate existence. | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
They isolate themselves from the mainstream community. And therefore | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
they are seeing as being rather... The other, representing the other, | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
something they don't understand. He has a point? Hello I do so. There is | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
little knowledge, which is why I accepted your invitation today. The | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
media has a huge role in making sure that people get real knowledge about | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
Roma. For example, the poor. Europe doesn't know anything and the | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
prejudice is based.... That under anything about the history of the | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
Roma. The prejudice is based on false information. If you look at | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
the history, they came or that 800 is ago and have been integrated into | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
all societies. My family for example in Hungary has been working as... | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
And has been contributing to the Hungarian economy heavily. All the | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
families were ideal 1980. You think it's a wrong perception when | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
somebody like the Labour MP for Sheffield, a former British Home | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
Secretary, said in November last year, we have got to change the | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
behaviour and culture of the Roma community. The incoming community | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
have to adhere to our standards and our way of behaving, because | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
otherwise there will be an explosion. His words are echoed by | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, who has a constituency in the | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
neighbouring region. Are they misinformed? It clearly shows a lack | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
of knowledge. It is extremely important that you go and get to | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
know these people, you go and get to know our people's history and the | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
condition be made to Europe. If you look at Eastern Europe, all the | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
factories, the roads, were built up by the poorest. Factory workers. | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
Today, if you look at how many Roma are in that economy, working black, | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
they don't get jobs because of their skin colour, you will see work has | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
never been a problem to the Roma. The European and feeling European | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
and having their national identity first and only after that as a Roma | :11:50. | :12:07. | |
identity has always been the case. You have your own traditions, what | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
looks like a child bride is in fact a remote dowry. There is an | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
encouragement to go to work. The Roma were the first addressing | :12:19. | :12:26. | |
these. So they are addressing them? Yes. If you read the EU reports on | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
Roma, we are talking about trafficking, victimisation of poor | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
people, we are talking about the importance of not making this an | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
ethnic question. You may say that these are Roma but you will see that | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
there are many more people looking around the settlements who are not | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
Roma. Do you accept that your Roma community has a responsibility to | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
try to fit in more with the rest of society and not remain separate? Of | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
course. This is the reason why he came to represent them in the | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
European Parliament, our main goal is partnership. We were the first to | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
propose this strategy. We want to change at. If you see my speeches, I | :13:13. | :13:20. | |
say that the Roma have a huge responsibility in making sure that | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
these programmes that are out there, the huge new system which is | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
politically very much supported by all of the member states | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
economically, it shows a huge possibilities. All of the funds have | :13:34. | :13:41. | |
been opened up. But not at the national level. This money is going | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
to the national level. You are the product of a mixed marriage. Your | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
mother is not a Roma but your father is. And yet you identify with the | :13:52. | :14:00. | |
Roma. You see yourself as a bridge between the two communities? I know | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
what I'm talking about. There is no difference between these groups in | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
the marriage of my parents and the mixed communities where we are all | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
living. There is a need and there is space for peaceful successful living | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
together. This country needs newcomers, young new generation of | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
Roma. If you are talking about the demography of Europe, this is needed | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
and this workforce cannot be educated in segregated education. We | :14:31. | :14:39. | |
need these young people to be good workers by 2015. Many countries have | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
such a huge amount of problems within the working strata. That is | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
going to cause an economic problem, not only a social one. You think | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
that the solution to the marginalisation and lack of | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
opportunities is to make sure that they have proper education and that | :15:05. | :15:15. | |
they are given the skills. We need a Roma working class and he private | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
sector has a role to play? The Roma strategy means jobs, factories, | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
making sure that the segregated living conditions do not exist, | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
making sure that United schools exist. If segregated schools exist | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
they must be as good as the rest. We need to make sure that these | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
children can comply with the pledges that the European strategy and the | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
requires of them. You need to break the negative stereotypes according | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
to George Soros. They need to take pride in their Roma heritage. If you | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
look at your own country, Hungary, you represent Fidesz Party. It is | :15:58. | :16:05. | |
not great to be a Roma in Hungary? You are not doing while their. It | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
used to be much worse. But it is not good? It is just as bad it has grown | :16:13. | :16:24. | |
in the past three years into a much better atmosphere. There are more | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
Roma working and going to university. Two years ago we had, | :16:28. | :16:35. | |
marching on the street, and Thai Roma marchers. The Hungarian | :16:36. | :16:37. | |
government made sure that the laws forbid it. We have the best and most | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
progressive European Roma strategy in place. We are the only country | :16:45. | :16:52. | |
with laws against beating Roma. But is not working. You have much as | :16:53. | :17:03. | |
against the Roma. The major charity says that Roma children in Hungary | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
are still segregated and receive substandard education and that the | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
government merely pays lip service to integration. Not at all. I know | :17:12. | :17:19. | |
the organisation and they know what sort of work they do. I know what | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
social organisations have been doing in the past 20 years. Finally now, | :17:26. | :17:34. | |
after 20 years of lip service, from non- Roma organisations, finally now | :17:35. | :17:48. | |
the money is arriving. But what about the comment? But you still | :17:49. | :17:58. | |
have a long way to go in Hungary. The co-founder of the Fidesz Party, | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
you know what he wrote? I will give you an example. She said that these | :18:03. | :18:16. | |
gypsies are animals and they behave like animals. They should not exist. | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
One has to solve that using all means available. How can you be a | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
member of a party and that is the co-founder and that is what he | :18:26. | :18:32. | |
wrote? This is very sad and for 20 years I have been working to make | :18:33. | :18:34. | |
sure that these things do not happen. Much more disturbing for the | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
EU and for us is when a prime minister talks like this, like the | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
Slovakian Prime Minister. Policymakers, if they are not aware | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
of the situation and if they are not aware of the tools that they | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
have... You content being a member of a party where that is one of the | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
cofounders and he writes that kind of thing? The reason I had to be | :19:01. | :19:09. | |
much more progressive in this and why a do not stop working with those | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
groups and NGOs and so-called advocacy groups who are not really | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
advocating for Roma but are trying to make sure that the anti- Roma | :19:19. | :19:27. | |
card is played against people. For me it was extremely important that | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
it was only Fidesz Party in the history of the EU that gave place to | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
a Roma in the Parliament. They gave me a free hand. But that is because | :19:40. | :19:50. | |
they wanted to bring you in. You are the only Roma in the European | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
Parliament and you are from Hungary so when the Prime Minister said that | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
the party wants to be sent, you are happy to be a token like that? I am | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
not a token. If you see how much I am much more a Roma advocate that a | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
politician, and if you see what history I have in NGOs in Europe | :20:16. | :20:26. | |
then you will see that I am everything but not a token of the | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
Fidesz Party. I was looked for by other Liberal and socialist groups | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
as well which I used to work with for 20 years until I was studying. | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
They were very much windowdressing. I knew it. My experience as a | :20:42. | :20:51. | |
parliamentarian... So use bind the left. People would feel that it was | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
the left that are more favourable to minority groups. It was important to | :20:56. | :21:03. | |
me and for the Roma to move those parties, the Conservatives, they | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
were the only ones that were ready to push it. A prominent Romanian | :21:09. | :21:18. | |
Roma said in December that a plan to open up a Roma political party with | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
candidates for the EU elections. Is that a good idea? Why not have | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
strength in numbers and say that we Roma will join hands? It could be a | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
good solution and it is happening elsewhere. But what you have to know | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
and what very few people know is that there is not a homogeneous Roma | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
identity across Europe. In Hungary there are 33 different dialects of | :21:47. | :21:54. | |
our language but only 4% of the Hungarian Roma are speaking the main | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
language. All around Europe you will see Muslim groups, you will see | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
other minorities in Spain and France, they are completely | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
different groups. Sometimes they can only speak in English. But you also | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
have a common experience of discrimination, persecution. Is that | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
not enough? This could be what unites us and I think that it is | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
important that would build on our history together. It is important to | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
introduce a Remembrance Day about the Roma Holocaust victims. Under | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
the Nazis many Roma were killed. Huge numbers were killed and very | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
few words are said about this. The Economist magazine wrote in August | :22:46. | :22:47. | |
that the discrimination and hatred that the Roma suffer is the result | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
of complex reasons that will take decades to ameliorate. Can the Roma | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
ever be properly integrated and when will that happen? When I wrote this | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
strategy I thought that I was planning for 30 or 40 years. We | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
introduced to the member states the programmes and we asked them to do | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
good projects. From the first year we have looked at these projects and | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
what the Parliament found was that these projects are weak, | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
windowdressing, following the history of the past 20 years, with | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
only lip service as you said but no real projects. The complexity of the | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
projects are missing. Health, education, living conditions, and | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
job issues have to be there altogether. The whole thing has to | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
go down to the regional level. What about integration? Because | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
implementation is not so good I will give it 30 or 40 years. It is a huge | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
time to wait for the Roma community who want to give everything they can | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
to make sure that the integration happens finally. Livia Jaroka, thank | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
you so much. That is how it will look for Friday. | :24:03. | :24:34. | |
Sunshine and showers will be frequent across western areas. Some | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
snow falling across | :24:41. | :24:41. |