Livia Jaroka MEP - Fidesz Party, Hungary HARDtalk


Livia Jaroka MEP - Fidesz Party, Hungary

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Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk. Europe's Roma have been discriminated against for

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centuries. They live in poor communities on the margins of

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society. Richer nations fear an influx of poorer migrants from

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eastern Europe in search of jobs and benefits and the Roma have borne the

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brunt of such suspicion. Now, Switzerland's vote to curb

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immigration from the EU has touched a nerve, with some predicting a

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hardening of attitudes right across Europe towards migrants. We speak to

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Hungarian MEP Livia Jaroka. The only Roma in the European parliament. Is

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she worried that the mood against the Roma is getting worse?

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Livia Jaroka, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. How worried are you that

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the mood against the Roma in particular is hardening? We have

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noticed it already 20 years ago when the system changed in Eastern

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Europe. We felt the anti- Roma sentiment was going around Europe.

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Cost of the economic situation worsening, today we see a rise in

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anti- Roma. But the European Parliament started at ten years ago.

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When you look at the referendum in Switzerland, not a member of the EU

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but has a close association and has access to the single market, the

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referendum vote there to curb immigration from the EU is a sign

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that richer countries in Europe, like Switzerland, are becoming even

:02:09.:02:14.

more less tolerant of migrants? But at the same time since 2004, the

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second big wave of the EU widening, there has been a lot of people who

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left their country is already and as immigrants have contributed to the

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economies of different western European countries. Evidently those

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countries weren't aware of the post- Communist tendencies that might

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occur and have occurred. So they take it as a surprise that people

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started to move, although it was predictable. As an anthropologist we

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saw it much earlier, that people from poorer regions would leave.

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Also, any Western European countries weren't aware that if they started

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to privatise Eastern Europe many of the jobs would it gone and this is

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what happened. We will talk about the reasons and what happened after

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1989, when we saw the dismantling of the Soviet bloc and so on, and the

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first wave of enlargement in 2004 and again in 2007. Saying that the

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Swiss referendum, it was said the vote was a total gift to the

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eurosceptics. They can point to Switzerland as a sturdy nation that

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is turning its back on EU immigration. This is a major

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headache for the European Union commission. And you are a member of

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the European Parliament, he want to seek re-election perhaps in May? It

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might be a major issue for those who are looking at it from the

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immigration point of view. For those who are looking at it from the

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national and economic point of view, and looking at the whole European

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union point of view, you will see that this sort of migration was

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first of all predictable, second of all these countries need these

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migrants... But the argument is getting through. When you see a

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spokesperson for David Cameron who said the vote in Switzerland

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reflected growing concern about the impact of the free movement of

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people. This is what of the main pillars of the EU. The point I make

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is this, how can the EU commission, its leaders, insist on this basic

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pillar remaining, but at the same time acknowledging that people are

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wary of migration within the EU? We do have to keep the free movement as

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one of the main values. Therefore, ten years ago we started to create

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the European Roma strategy, to make sure the poorest people of the EU

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are going to find their place. So, this sort of tension that is

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happening now is not going to come out. But, already, ten years back,

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we felt these tensions. We knew this sort of poverty in Europe that

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creates this tension and create the feeling, the fear, but others are

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going to take their jobs, feeling, the fear, but others are

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that strategy isn't working. Take the words of one Hungarian

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billionaire, who has done a great deal of research on the Roma. He

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says since they became EU citizens, the living conditions of the Roma

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people across Europe deteriorated. I wouldn't say so but it has been

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better, that's the shore. He says the shocking thing is, those are his

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words, the shocking thing is that their living conditions have

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deteriorated. If you look at the statistics, 90% of Roma people live

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in poverty. They are twice as likely to be unemployed, 24% is the average

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across the EU. I came to the parliament in 2004 to create a Roma

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strategy in Europe. When the new government came into presidency, we

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have spoken to Prime Minister is on this. But it was only the Hungarian

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president in 2011 who was ready to look at the question. If you

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remember, it was after the first expulsions from France. There was an

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openness for this in the Council. Situation is not what it was ten

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years ago. And it comes to political commitment from the countries. Ten

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years ago, Europe didn't know about the Roma to the extent they know

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now. It wasn't on the political agenda. He pushed it through 27

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countries. Seven different huge parties in the European Parliament,

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to find a compromise. There is a need for a European move on this

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sort of poverty. It's on the agenda it is on the agenda in a negative

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way, in many ways. One example, many people have the possession in Europe

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that the Roma people, the cause of this marginalisation, twice as

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likely to be unemployed for instance, that they will go to

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Western European countries where there is a better welfare and

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benefits system. -- perception in Europe. These people are escaping

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economic turbulence. Since the 90s, they haven't had jobs. Three

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generations without seeing their parents go to work. Before that,

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there was full unemployment in Europe because of comment is on. You

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are accepting that they do go to richer countries? -- because of

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comment is on. The radiant prime minister said to HARDtalk last year

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that in answer to benefit tourism it's a specific problem of the Roma

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community. -- Romanian prime minister. He admitted it was a

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concern for countries like France, the UK and Germany. We don't know to

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what extent Roma are in this game. What we learned from the recent

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research is that actually this immigration is a totally positive

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outcome to all of these countries. What we see it, this sort of

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turbulence and anti-immigration, it usually comes before the election.

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You know that. All around Eastern and Western Europe we ask why

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governments aren't doing enough, why they aren't using EU money, why they

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aren't doing anything. Many of them don't dare to because of the

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elections. You are rejecting that comment that he made, that it's a

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specific problem with benefit tourism as regards to the Roma

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community, the Romanian committee in this situation? Merret I have two.

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-- community in this situation. I have two. People only thing their

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homes to find jobs in other places. People would leave their homes do

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not work in other places. You can imagine what a huge step it is when

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these people do this. Not mentioning that why we are addressing this

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issue, as well as trafficking and other rights, issues that came up

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with this sort of poverty. The reason why we are also addressing

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this from inside the community and also as a parliamentarian in the

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European Parliament in the name of the European Roma, I am addressing

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this question, saying many of the people are coming here because

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of... They are being trafficked. Any children are victims of this sort of

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new system of migrating possibilities. -- many children. But

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these countries don't realise that they cannot export their poverty, so

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they have to use the EU money, the huge funds available, the programmes

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we have organised and opened up in the last years. Because this will

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solve the problem. Looking at another example, another reason why

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people say the Roma are marginalised, is one senior Greek

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diplomat, of course Greece is holding the current presidency of

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the EU, says that people see them as living a kind of separate existence.

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They isolate themselves from the mainstream community. And therefore

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they are seeing as being rather... The other, representing the other,

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something they don't understand. He has a point? Hello I do so. There is

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little knowledge, which is why I accepted your invitation today. The

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media has a huge role in making sure that people get real knowledge about

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Roma. For example, the poor. Europe doesn't know anything and the

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prejudice is based.... That under anything about the history of the

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Roma. The prejudice is based on false information. If you look at

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the history, they came or that 800 is ago and have been integrated into

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all societies. My family for example in Hungary has been working as...

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And has been contributing to the Hungarian economy heavily. All the

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families were ideal 1980. You think it's a wrong perception when

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somebody like the Labour MP for Sheffield, a former British Home

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Secretary, said in November last year, we have got to change the

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behaviour and culture of the Roma community. The incoming community

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have to adhere to our standards and our way of behaving, because

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otherwise there will be an explosion. His words are echoed by

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the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, who has a constituency in the

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neighbouring region. Are they misinformed? It clearly shows a lack

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of knowledge. It is extremely important that you go and get to

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know these people, you go and get to know our people's history and the

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condition be made to Europe. If you look at Eastern Europe, all the

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factories, the roads, were built up by the poorest. Factory workers.

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Today, if you look at how many Roma are in that economy, working black,

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they don't get jobs because of their skin colour, you will see work has

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never been a problem to the Roma. The European and feeling European

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and having their national identity first and only after that as a Roma

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identity has always been the case. You have your own traditions, what

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looks like a child bride is in fact a remote dowry. There is an

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encouragement to go to work. The Roma were the first addressing

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these. So they are addressing them? Yes. If you read the EU reports on

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Roma, we are talking about trafficking, victimisation of poor

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people, we are talking about the importance of not making this an

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ethnic question. You may say that these are Roma but you will see that

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there are many more people looking around the settlements who are not

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Roma. Do you accept that your Roma community has a responsibility to

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try to fit in more with the rest of society and not remain separate? Of

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course. This is the reason why he came to represent them in the

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European Parliament, our main goal is partnership. We were the first to

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propose this strategy. We want to change at. If you see my speeches, I

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say that the Roma have a huge responsibility in making sure that

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these programmes that are out there, the huge new system which is

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politically very much supported by all of the member states

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economically, it shows a huge possibilities. All of the funds have

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been opened up. But not at the national level. This money is going

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to the national level. You are the product of a mixed marriage. Your

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mother is not a Roma but your father is. And yet you identify with the

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Roma. You see yourself as a bridge between the two communities? I know

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what I'm talking about. There is no difference between these groups in

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the marriage of my parents and the mixed communities where we are all

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living. There is a need and there is space for peaceful successful living

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together. This country needs newcomers, young new generation of

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Roma. If you are talking about the demography of Europe, this is needed

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and this workforce cannot be educated in segregated education. We

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need these young people to be good workers by 2015. Many countries have

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such a huge amount of problems within the working strata. That is

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going to cause an economic problem, not only a social one. You think

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that the solution to the marginalisation and lack of

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opportunities is to make sure that they have proper education and that

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they are given the skills. We need a Roma working class and he private

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sector has a role to play? The Roma strategy means jobs, factories,

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making sure that the segregated living conditions do not exist,

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making sure that United schools exist. If segregated schools exist

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they must be as good as the rest. We need to make sure that these

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children can comply with the pledges that the European strategy and the

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requires of them. You need to break the negative stereotypes according

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to George Soros. They need to take pride in their Roma heritage. If you

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look at your own country, Hungary, you represent Fidesz Party. It is

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not great to be a Roma in Hungary? You are not doing while their. It

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used to be much worse. But it is not good? It is just as bad it has grown

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in the past three years into a much better atmosphere. There are more

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Roma working and going to university. Two years ago we had,

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marching on the street, and Thai Roma marchers. The Hungarian

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government made sure that the laws forbid it. We have the best and most

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progressive European Roma strategy in place. We are the only country

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with laws against beating Roma. But is not working. You have much as

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against the Roma. The major charity says that Roma children in Hungary

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are still segregated and receive substandard education and that the

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government merely pays lip service to integration. Not at all. I know

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the organisation and they know what sort of work they do. I know what

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social organisations have been doing in the past 20 years. Finally now,

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after 20 years of lip service, from non- Roma organisations, finally now

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the money is arriving. But what about the comment? But you still

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have a long way to go in Hungary. The co-founder of the Fidesz Party,

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you know what he wrote? I will give you an example. She said that these

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gypsies are animals and they behave like animals. They should not exist.

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One has to solve that using all means available. How can you be a

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member of a party and that is the co-founder and that is what he

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wrote? This is very sad and for 20 years I have been working to make

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sure that these things do not happen. Much more disturbing for the

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EU and for us is when a prime minister talks like this, like the

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Slovakian Prime Minister. Policymakers, if they are not aware

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of the situation and if they are not aware of the tools that they

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have... You content being a member of a party where that is one of the

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cofounders and he writes that kind of thing? The reason I had to be

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much more progressive in this and why a do not stop working with those

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groups and NGOs and so-called advocacy groups who are not really

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advocating for Roma but are trying to make sure that the anti- Roma

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card is played against people. For me it was extremely important that

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it was only Fidesz Party in the history of the EU that gave place to

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a Roma in the Parliament. They gave me a free hand. But that is because

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they wanted to bring you in. You are the only Roma in the European

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Parliament and you are from Hungary so when the Prime Minister said that

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the party wants to be sent, you are happy to be a token like that? I am

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not a token. If you see how much I am much more a Roma advocate that a

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politician, and if you see what history I have in NGOs in Europe

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then you will see that I am everything but not a token of the

:20:27.:20:33.

Fidesz Party. I was looked for by other Liberal and socialist groups

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as well which I used to work with for 20 years until I was studying.

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They were very much windowdressing. I knew it. My experience as a

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parliamentarian... So use bind the left. People would feel that it was

:20:52.:20:55.

the left that are more favourable to minority groups. It was important to

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me and for the Roma to move those parties, the Conservatives, they

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were the only ones that were ready to push it. A prominent Romanian

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Roma said in December that a plan to open up a Roma political party with

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candidates for the EU elections. Is that a good idea? Why not have

:21:24.:21:29.

strength in numbers and say that we Roma will join hands? It could be a

:21:30.:21:34.

good solution and it is happening elsewhere. But what you have to know

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and what very few people know is that there is not a homogeneous Roma

:21:40.:21:46.

identity across Europe. In Hungary there are 33 different dialects of

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our language but only 4% of the Hungarian Roma are speaking the main

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language. All around Europe you will see Muslim groups, you will see

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other minorities in Spain and France, they are completely

:22:04.:22:10.

different groups. Sometimes they can only speak in English. But you also

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have a common experience of discrimination, persecution. Is that

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not enough? This could be what unites us and I think that it is

:22:22.:22:26.

important that would build on our history together. It is important to

:22:27.:22:30.

introduce a Remembrance Day about the Roma Holocaust victims. Under

:22:31.:22:38.

the Nazis many Roma were killed. Huge numbers were killed and very

:22:39.:22:45.

few words are said about this. The Economist magazine wrote in August

:22:46.:22:47.

that the discrimination and hatred that the Roma suffer is the result

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of complex reasons that will take decades to ameliorate. Can the Roma

:22:53.:22:56.

ever be properly integrated and when will that happen? When I wrote this

:22:57.:23:02.

strategy I thought that I was planning for 30 or 40 years. We

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introduced to the member states the programmes and we asked them to do

:23:08.:23:12.

good projects. From the first year we have looked at these projects and

:23:13.:23:16.

what the Parliament found was that these projects are weak,

:23:17.:23:20.

windowdressing, following the history of the past 20 years, with

:23:21.:23:25.

only lip service as you said but no real projects. The complexity of the

:23:26.:23:32.

projects are missing. Health, education, living conditions, and

:23:33.:23:36.

job issues have to be there altogether. The whole thing has to

:23:37.:23:43.

go down to the regional level. What about integration? Because

:23:44.:23:48.

implementation is not so good I will give it 30 or 40 years. It is a huge

:23:49.:23:53.

time to wait for the Roma community who want to give everything they can

:23:54.:23:57.

to make sure that the integration happens finally. Livia Jaroka, thank

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you so much. That is how it will look for Friday.

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Sunshine and showers will be frequent across western areas. Some

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snow falling across

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