Nicolas Henin, Journalist and Former Hostage HARDtalk

The Syrian city of Raqqa is the self-styled capital

for the militants of the so called Islamic State.

It is difficult for independent journalists to operate in such

situations, but French journalist Nicolas Henin decided to enter Raqqa

after militants seized it from Syrian government forces in 2013.

He was captured by IS fighters and held for ten months along with

What did he learn about the mindset of ISIS militants?

Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. What made you want to go into Raqqa a few

months after it fell to the militants? It wasn't my first trip

to Syria. I have been there five times after the beginning of the

revolution. But this was the first time that the capital city, because

Syria is a federation, was lost by the regime of Bashar al-Assad. It is

very different to run a countryside and to run a city because you have

to provide a much more public service to the people and the

political organisation is very different. I wanted to see how the

militants, the opposition, not any opposition, because it wasn't like

the regular opposition, the Free Syrian Army, but a coalition of

Islamist groups, which took over Raqqa, I wanted to see them running

a large city. All right. But after a while it was Islamic State who

prevailed in Raqqa. It is now their capital. You knew, surely, when you

went in there, there would be a high probability of you being captured or

killed. Not at all. At that time there were very few abductions

public. The capture in November, the year before, was public. And the

abduction, a couple of weeks before, of two French journalists,

was public. The others were not known. But you... Knowing the Middle

East as you do, use the beautiful Arabic, you have studied the

area... -- you speak. You thought you could come out freely? Yeah.

Because it was the first time I encountered jihadis. The first time

was in Baghdad after the American invasion. You were a bit naive? Not

at all. I had, so far, always, a professional distant contact with

these people. But, uh, I thought these people had only a domestic

agenda. They obviously had a much wider one. As you said, it fell in

March. You went in mid June, June the 22nd you were captured, just

walking along the street. Why? Well... It is like in a movie. A bad

movie. There is a car. People come after the car and grab used. There

were masks and weapons. -- grab you. And then they take you to a place

that you cannot see anything outside... What was the first

thought that came into your head when you were captured? My family.

Really? Of course. And then I tried something... I will... I tried after

three days to escape. I broke the bars of my cell. I ran in the desert

for all the night. And early in the morning I got captured again and

taken back to the very same place. Were you punished? I know you were

beaten but was that the first occasion? They won't attack me, of

course. You have described in the past how, during your captivity, you

were freezing a lot of the time, you were starving, you had to wear the

same clothes for six months. Very poor sanitation. Just give us an

idea of what those months were like. Everything is difficult, of

course. One of the most difficult things is probably boredom because

you just have nothing to do. , but this being said, and this is what is

written here on the back cover of my book. -- Uh,. This is my motto, what

I went through was a nightmare, but it is nothing compared to the

tragedy being suffered by the people in Syria and Iraq. And this is what

inspired me after all of this. I just look at myself, well up yes,

obviously, what I have been through was harsh. -- well, yes. But it is

nothing compared to the tragedy in the region. But you must have

thought that you might be killed. Yeah. This is definitely something

that comes in your mind at some point. But you have written jihad

academy, this book, because you said you did not want to be just known as

a former speech held by Islamic State. -- Jihad Academy. It is part

of my therapy. I have been taken for ten months. It is nothing to be

proud of. It is a life accident. But, I was not only a victim. Yes, I

was a victim. But I kept being a journalist. I kept looking at

things. Observing, thinking, trying to understand the motives around and

what was going on and who has really be people keeping me. -- is. You

were held by several captors. Yeah. A few of them. You were held

alongside a number of other Western hostages. Two doesn't. Including

some of the ones we know about, David Haines, Steven Sotloff. --

dozen. And John Cantlie who is still alive. Some of them killed. But you

say you gained insights into the people holding you. What kind? Who

were they? It can be difficult to describe them. Because, they... They

have different backgrounds. But, generally, they are mostly like

street kids. Very... Very persuasive. Uh, they are very good

at discussion, uh... Brought up in the? -- West.. Were they fluent?

They had accents. I have not seen the passports of any of them that I

can assume they are by -- binationals. Maybe European. I don't

know. And what insights did you get? You said you never stopped being a

journalist. What did you learn about the motivation of them? You say they

were like streaky. What is surprising is that most of them have

been to Syria in a very genuine way. -- street kids. The thought,

genuinely, that they would do, almost like humanitarian actions.

--. They went there to protect orphans and widows. -- They. The

Syrian people have been killed without reaction from the well.

Sorry... Once they arrive then they are turned into actual criminal.

What process... What is the process? -- criminals. The idea is

to see what happens to them. Not many of them realise that Islamic

State... It is all about that. Islamic State cells after a legend.

-- sells us a. But we are buying and. Actually, it is a scam. They

are saying that they protect the Syrian civilians. -- it. They just

imprison them. They say they are working for the sake of Islam while

they are insulting Islam everyday. They totally contradict it. And to

the world, they like to present themselves as a kind of super

organisation. They are not. If you look at the figures, the Syrian

regime kills ten times more than Islamic State. The problem is, it is

a problem of publicity. Islamic State massively publicises its crime

whereas the Syrian regime, while it is protected by a wall of fear, it's

just... The captors you talked about, they went in with

humanitarian intentions, but some of them become the ones we see

beheading... Some of them go in with those intentions... Yeah. But the

ones that go in like that, are they the ones that left their Western

homes... Were they pretending? I don't know. Then they became these

cruel captors? This is just one of their many crimes. There biggest

crime is the occupation of Iraq and Syria. Is this because you observed

them at close quarters? Did you for a relationship with them? What did

you glean from them? No. Very basic. They were not trying to do so. You

say in your new book, Jihad Academy, the West cannot take them out

without stopping the fire that feeds it. What is that? The main problems

with Islamic State is that we are taking them as evil, it is not, it

is only the symptoms of the evil. The main problem is

authoritarianism, sectarianism, and violence. It is a fresh and. It is

like you look to me and say, listen, you have a problem, you have

cockroaches all of your kitchen. I go to the kitchen and say, the

problem is not cockroaches, it is that your kitchen is dirty. There is

fat all over the walls and rotten food everywhere. Basically, we can

run after the cockroaches everywhere for years will keep we can just

clean up the kitchen. This is the problem. Why can't... Islamic State

are only cockroaches. They are not... They're not... I understand.

Why not pursue both? Why not try to do something about dismantling the

authoritarian regimes as well as this very, very terrible, barbaric

side effect as you describe it? Why is it either, or? We are paying very

little attention. As soon as the, especially the Iraq Sunnis in the

region, if they have hope Islamic State will collapse. We have to help

them to establish a political roadmap and to have hope. And to

have hope in security. That is what is going on. We have

countless meetings in so many cabinets around the world, John

Kerry saying you have to have negotiations to make sure that

things are... The debate in Vienna was all about Iran joining the talks

are not. Iran is key. The Syrians should come. We do not care about

Russians, Iranians, Americans, we need to have Syrians. There are

talks with the Syrians. What I want to see is not all the powers of the

world coming and sitting in a nice palace discussing the future, we

were just have another Yalta. Where will we put the boundaries? What

will we do with these people? We need to ask these people from

their, willing to discuss and set up a political roadmap to come and do

that. But for that, they need security. Because violence and

repression and the lack of security and especially the bombing is the

main cause for radicalisation. In your party said it is the great

powers who manufacture the conditions for this nightmare to

come true and create the fanatics who willingly set off to fight in a

world which is not theirs. It sounds like you are describing a lot of

problems as a creation of the West and the fact that these problems

continue is also a failure of the West. There is a lot of

responsibility of the West. Isn't it the people of these countries, the

people of the region, who are most did by what is going on? They are

the key for the solution. Talking about the responsibility of the

West, it is useless to just blame ourselves for nothing. Let us just

identify, we Westerners made mistakes that are the roots of ISIS.

The first being the condition of Iraq and not listening to the Syrian

people. Just to the fact you were held captive by ten months for these

militants of Islamic State. -- for ten months by. You were handcuffed

to James Foley for a week, you shared the same shoes. It must have

been devastating when you heard the news about what happened. Of

course, especially since I was in contact with his parents. Pages have

been written about him. I was visiting his parents. Yes, of

course. Just like any other. That is what is is specific with my

captivity. Normally when you are released, you are free. I was not,

because I left behind a dozen. I will not be totally relieved until

the last one is released. The assistant African editor of the

associated press said of James fully, he was determined to go to

Syria, he wanted to get the point of view of the Syrian people told. Is

that is what motivates you? Yes. This is the other crime that my

captors committed. What happened to us and our families. But the major

crime is because of that there were no more journalists or aid workers

going into Syria. Syria turned into a black hole. James Foley had been

held in prison in 2011 and he told journalism students later that he

had gone for a romantic notion. But he also warned against risk-taking.

He said it is not worth your life. Did he talk to you about any regrets

he might have had? If you try something, if you feel you will

always regret it. If you succeed you do not. She was seriously thinking

leaving him. It was too harsh. He was thinking working for the CP J

has a committed journalist or doing some interfaith work. To change his

activity. The problem is, I would be the last one to lecture and

journalist if he tells me, I want to go or do not want to go to Syria. It

is an intimate decision. You were released and I want to ask you, was

a ransom paid for you? I am not naive. I do not think I was released

just because my captors liked the colour of my eyes. I have no clue

what I have been exchanged for. The only thing I know for sure is what

President Francois Hollande told me when I arrived back in France. The

French government did not pay for you. That is it. But somebody else

might have. Not the government. Some kind of French... I do not know. We

know from a New York Times investigation that al-Qaeda netted

around $120 million in just six years, of which $50 million came

from France. It is possible that something was paid. It is possible.

You quit the US treasury secretary saying that at least $20 million in

ransoms has been paid to Islamic State, something that he laments. Is

that not another reason why you should be careful about going to

places like Iraq, because Westerners become a source of financial gain?

You are right. This is something that journalists should can sit. --

consider. If I go to a place like that and get captured, it is a

question of national security for my country. Yes, it is a huge

responsibility. But still, I am a reporter and I consider that it is

not only my weight but my duty to go there. How do you feel about the

fact that you are obviously here and there are others who were in your

position who were killed, what kind of impact does that have on you? Has

it created a lot of trauma? I am trying not to feel guilty. So you

are trying not to feel guilty but suggest you have at times had that

feeling? When you have these kind of experiences, of course you have, you

go through different phases. It is a life changing experience, of course.

Where are you now? Maybe I am looking at things more

pragmatically. My very own little victory over these people who have

taken me is that if I look at the bottom of my heart, my convictions

are the same. They did not are the same. They did not change

me. He probably tried, but they did not.

Wednesday will be no different - very, very mild, still quite breezy.