Jens Spahn, Deputy Finance Minister, Germany HARDtalk

It is time now for HARDtalk Welcome to HARDtalk I am Stephen Sackur.

With so much focus on America's new president, it is easy to forget that

Europe is facing its own period of prolonged uncertainty. Brexit

negotiations are about to begin, the Greek debt crisis is going through

another convulsion, and it is a dear of key elections, most particularly

in the continent's dominant economy, Germany. My guest is Jens Spahn. He

is a rising star in Germany. Will German politics reshape Europe?

Jens Spahn in Berlin, welcome to HARDtalk Good evening Stephen and

London. It is good to see you. We start with trans-Atlantic relations

as seen from Berlin. I think we have two start with the impact of Donald

Trump. How would you say Germany perceives Donald Trump's

administration right now? Well, let's said that the way the

President is using Twitter and talking is very unusual for Germans.

We are not used to that, but nevertheless, I think when it comes

to the issues he brings to the table, and the administration brings

the table, when it comes to Nato, the question if we do enough here in

Europe for our own defence, when it comes to trade, for example trade

with China, where the issues to. We just had this argument with the

steel union of Europe and China. When it comes to Syria, there are

issues we can work on together. And I want to focus on those things

where we can work on them together, not just do all these historical

things we have seen in the past days. -- hysterical. I do want to be

hysterical, but I don't just want to focus on what you have outlined,

either. I want to focus on what Donald Trump a Europe. He said

Brexit was the start of something bigger and that other nations would

be the European Union. And he clearly left the impression that he

does not have much time to the European Union. Well, I would say it

is up to the European Union, now, to grow up. We have two learn,

obviously, that we have to do our things on our own, but I do hope

that from sentences like this and the opinion that seems to be there -

and by the way, it is not a new opinion, and new things that we hear

from our American friends when it comes to the European Union... No,

on the contrary, it is very new. I've spoken to many of Barack

Obama's advisers and their message was clear. They wanted to deal with

a deterrent, and unified European Union. They wanted a Trans-Atlantic

Trade and Investment Partnership. These so-called TTIP deal. That is

what I meant. We obviously need to be a strong Europe. So we need to

bring up these issues. A defence union, for example. We talked about

it for decades, but nothing as happened. Now, finally, we take the

first concrete steps to build up something, new agencies, and we are

working together on this error. All when it comes to trade, for months,

if not years, we have seen many people demonstrating against TTIP.

And we had all sorts of other problems with other arrangements.

And free trade is important for the European Union and we need to be

strong on that. But I meant by growing up, we need to learn as a

union to stand on our own feet. And I think that is what is changing in

the transatlantic partnership. Of course, the United states is our

most important ally in the world. The transatlantic partnership is

important for us. -- United States. But the ute, a European Union needs

to grow up and become stronger. -- but the European Union. Donald Trump

is in America first guy. And he is not for free trade. Even in his

inauguration address, he used were protection. We know he's going to do

what it takes to change the trade dynamic between countries like he

and yours. And when he looks at your trading surplus, which in 2015 was a

staggering 250 billion euros, he sees a country, Germany, which in

his view is operating under fairly. What is unfair about our exports of

cars to the United States? That is a question we have to raise. On the

other hand, I don't have any German mobile left. We buy those from other

countries. We are not just one of the biggest exporters, but the third

biggest importer, as well. If you believe in free trade, you need to

make sure it is to the benefit of all. It is a America for us, -- if

it is America first, we must be German first. We have worked well

with our neighbours and other partners. We need to make America

first also mean working together and trading together for both sides.

That is what it is about. And by the way, the only government, or one of

the only ones in the European Union that is actually asking the European

Central Bank to think about the low interest rates is the German one. It

is interesting to me that in the course of this conversation, you

have steadfastly refused to criticise Donald Trump in any

meaningful way at all. And yet in German politics, the SPD, your rival

for power, the centre-left party, is now led by a man who has made no

bones about his very strong criticisms of Donald Trump. It is

interesting that Michael Schultz, in Germany, is doing very well in the

polls. It may be that your caution and Angela Merkel's caution about

Donald Trump is not to serve you well in German politics. Ozil, I

don't believe that this issue, the American issue, to call it that way,

is the most important thing when it comes to the people who vote. --

first of all, I don't believe. But if you are just a party German late

Mr Schultz, that this is a big issue. But like asset, a United

States are one of the important allies. Of course it is important...

You cannot keep saying that, at Jens Spahn, when the United States is led

by a man who in so many different ways, whether it is on the European

Union, Nato, or free trade, or human rights issues, is doing things

counter to what German... But Stephen, do you think it makes

things better to start insulting each other? We are doing that right

now. I believe in working together. This new administration is just an

office for some few weeks. And everyone in Germany and Europe seems

to know already what all this is about. I want to talk to people

first, before I come to final conclusions. And so, actually, what

we try to build up is personal relations with our partners on the

other side. Of course, we do say what we like and do not like, but I

prefer to start doing that in personal talks, not in front of the

media. But private people do at the media does. What a party German late

Mr Michael Shaw stars, that is up to them. But for a government, it is a

responsible position to say we want to speak to our partners in

Washington first of all, and the other side had made that clear. But

we have explained that there is a difference between the current

situation with China and Europe. So we just don't let it happen. We

comment on that, but in a way that I think is a very responsible way. OK.

In my introduction, I spoke about uncertainty. I think it is fair to

say that there is more uncertainty about German politics than we

thought they would have been, six Muzza go. As I mentioned, the

opinion polls have changed. For the first time, just a few days ago, we

saw Martin Schultz and had over Angela Merkel. Why do you think the

political mood is changing and running counter to the interests of

your party, the CDU? The Social Democrats in Germany have the

momentum of the new kids on the block. And nobody knows Mr Schultz.

And his position on many issues like immigration and security, like

social issues are unknown. So this debate is about to start. What we

see is that a party like the Social Democrats, that have actually been

in a kind of political depression in the past decades, all past years,

that's say, where they had no chance, actually to win any national

election, for the first time, they get a slight feeling that they might

have a chance, this time will stop at of course, that sets freed some

energy. And that is our policy right now. And that shows, as well, by the

way, as a Christian Democrat, that our party, the Chancellor's party,

this campaign will be different to the campaign that we have seen four

years ago. It will be about content much more than the last one.

Everyone actually feels, right now, it is about the future of Europe,

about the future of our country, about the future of our actually

uniting or dis- uniting our society with the migrants and refugees that

have just come in. And we'll want to make this one a more amazing

campaign in the last one. Angela Merkel said it will be the hardest

ever. And it may be one of the hardest, if not the hardest ever,

because you have created some problems for her. When you have

spoken about her handling of the migration challenge and her decision

to say we can manage, our borders are open, and letting in many more

than 1 million migrants over the past couple of years. You have

commented on that, suggesting it was a mistake. You Eddie Izzard a book

that describe the influx as a failure of the state. You said the

border cannot be secured. Law cannot be enforced and thousands of

applications cannot be processed. So if you, yourself, have pointed out

Angela Merkel and said you made a terrible mistake, and the German

people have read what you have said. No, no, no, I never said. I.e.

Describe the situation in my book, from November 2015, I described the

situation we had in Germany. And obviously in Europe. In some parts

we are still not able to secure our border. That is busily what we need

to do. And nobody was prepared, not in Germany, Berlin, Europe, anywhere

on what has happened. Donald Trump called it a catastrophic mistake on

the part of Angela Merkel. And the German people are not going to

forget that. You know what is actually the catastrophic mistake?

We have made it as a European Union as a whole. The

-- the Holden Schengen treaty. The freedom of movement throughout

Europe. -- the whole Schengen treaty. Only if we are willing to

secure our borders. We were not able to protect our borders, the

Mediterranean Sea. That is what the last summit was about. We had to

regain control and we have regained a lot of control already, but not

yet everything that needs to beat at. That is actually a debate that

is to be done. I think is something like that is happening, like we have

seen in the past two years, with the migrants coming into Europe, then it

is quite normal that you have eight controversial debate in society and

in the party. And I do see a controversial debate in the party if

you do at the right way, and with good arguments, and that is what we

did in the Christian Democratic Party in Germany. The reality is

that we are just two months on from a terrible terror attack at the

Christmas market in Berlin that turned out to be the work of a

Tunisian individual. The German and author of his were aware of him and

he was legally in the country, but Gemma could not figure out how to

deport him. And that makes political capital for rival parties such as

the far right AFD movement in your country, who say, and I quote a

recent leadership quote, we cannot go on denying that there is a leg

between Angela Merkel's migration policy and these attacks, or we will

simply prepared the ground for more of the same attacks. That is the

political climate today to your party. World political climate in

Germany is more polarised than it has been for many years. That is for

sure. And I think that is quite normal, actually, after this

situation we have seen in the autumn of 2015. We have never had a

situation like this before in the European Union or in Germany. Now it

is about regaining control. Now it is about discussing security issues,

of course fighting terrorism, and we have had terror attacks before this

refugee influx of the past months. But it is about screening people who

are coming to the European Union. By the way, the terrorists of Berlin

actually was a let out of a Greek prison too early. -- terrorist. So

we need to find a European solution on this. And I find quite normal

that you have controversial debates about this in a society and in an

upcoming campaign, and because this is not an average issue, that is a

fundamental question of the future of society and of Europe. But by

Is that why you are pandering to the far right for taking on, for

example, the issue of the burqa in Germany and describing yourself as

burqa phobic? When I grew up, fighting for the rights of women was

a left thing. It is a reactionary conservative religious approach that

women are forced... Wait a minute... Sorry, since I heard that all the

time. Since when are fighting for the rights of women and the equality

of men and women, since when is that a very right wing approach? That is

new to me. It used to be a left approach. Every academic... We have

to fight for these women's rights. We have so many women in Germany

everyday. A strange issue for you to fight on. If I criticise it, if I

have done last weekend, people, he right wing. It used to be a very

liberal approach and I keep on saying that. It is a strange issue

for you to fight on. Every economic analysis tells us that there are

only a few hundred women in the whole of Germany that where the

burqa. It is a very, very small issue that you have chosen to make

into a big political issue. Also, what if these women actually want to

wear the burqa? Where do you stand on the women's rights then?

Actually, a woman that wants to wear at burqa might be wrong in our

society. This are open deliberate societies. Every day, I might see

people I might not like and that is a normal, that is an open society.

How would this interview P, Stephen, if the two of us were covered on our

faces discussing these issues? This is not our open, liberal society.

This is not our Western world. You might call it a symbolic debate.

Yes, it is symbolic. It is symbolic about the issue of whether we're

willing to stand for our rights, values and principles. There are so

many women, actually, affected. I say it so much here in Germany. Not

by burqa only at why their fathers choosing the men who they have to

marry. Little girls are not allowed to go to swimming lessons are close

of so-called religious reasons. We have two do this fight and to stand

up for our values. This is about culture, by the way. So practically

speaking, we know that you want to ban the burqa in Germany but there

is a bigger issue on what you do with those whose asylum claims fail

and you don't know where to put them. Angela Merkel has said in

recent days and again this might be political but she said it is about

repatriation, repatriation and more repatriations. What are you going to

do, are you going to send tens and possibly thousands of people to

Greece which is already struggling to cope with the tens of thousands

of people it has in refugee camps already, you are going to send them

back to grief because that was their first port of entry into the

European Union? It's not about sending them back to Greece. It is

about sending them back to their home countries, Morocco, Tunisia and

Algeria. As was the case with the market... It that is why we are

negotiating with these countries. Less than 1% of asylum seekers are

from these countries and are recognised and refugees. Many of

them come for understandable reasons but not for reasons that make them a

refugee because of the Geneva convention. The summit was about

this. The people we rescue for the Mediterranean Sea, we need to bring

them back to the coast from which they came. We need to give them

shelter and food and all the other stuff and within weeks, these

smuggler business will be ended and the dying in the Mediterranean Sea

as well. We have two actually make clear, yes, refugees from Syria and

Iraq, there is a chance to be in the European Union. There is a chance to

be in Germany, we want to help them. But the people that come from other

reasons and I say again, understandable reasons but we can't

solve this problem by letting them all come to the European Union. I

have two ask you about Brexit because that is the other

existential challenge facing the European Union. After the Brexit

boat, Angela Merkel said the very survival of the European Union is

now at stake. Because she sees it like that, to that mean that you in

Germany ultimately do feel that Britain has to pay a heavy price for

Brexit and that you will not exceed Tibet cherry picking desires of

harissa made to both leave the single market but have preferential

access to the single market? First of all, a regret the United Kingdom

leaving the EU. In the United kingdom always was and always will

be one of our strongest partners. In Europe and the world. So you will

allow, to a certain extent, some cherry picking? No! I was about to

make the button. We want to make very strong ties politically -- the

but. If you want access to the market, you have to accept the

freedom of movement, for example. By the framework of the internal market

and the WTO framework, there is so much room for compromise so we

actually should start these negotiations. So far they haven't

started. Give a there needs to be a divorce

settlement started to be spoken about. They can't be simultaneous.

Is that your view? They are separate, that is right but you

cannot have it simultaneously. First of all, you have to settle the

divorce, that is true. We are already about to talk about all of

this. Of course you can already started talks about what is going to

happen after but this will be the mother of negotiations, actually,

one of the biggest negotiations that ever has been between states. There

is a lot of work to do and so we should start soon to get away this

uncertainty for so many people and so many businesses that are affected

by this. Let's start this and let's find a way to have a very strong

relationship, economically and politically. As I said, there is no

cherry picking but much, much room for compromise. In your opinion, how

much will it cost Britain in terms of its long-term economic prospects,

leaving the EU? Well, actually, that is very hard to say. That is very

hard to calculate. You can only make assumptions. You can make every

number, if you want to, out of this. I think what is affecting most...

Might point is this. President Hollande said that UK has two pay a

high price or other countries might want to follow. Jelena that is not

our opinion. -- that is not our opinion. We had to accept this

decision. It is not about punishment. It is not about to

cherry picking but finding a good way partnership afterwards. I am not

so worried, by the way, about other countries leaving. Mr Trump might

say it. Others might say it. I see the Eastern European countries

having a big interest in good relationships. For example when it

comes to defence. The defence union is something very important for our

Eastern European partners. I see that our staff European partners

love to be with us in the. Actually, I see no other country living. We

have delivered there. Thank you very much, Jens Spahn, joining me from

Berlin. A pleasure. Thank you.