Tzipi Livni, Joint leader, Zionist Union, Israel HARDtalk


Tzipi Livni, Joint leader, Zionist Union, Israel

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Welcome to HARDtalk I am Sarah Montague. The decades, many have

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assumed that the only way there will be peace in the Middle East is when

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the Palestinians have their own state. But President Trump has made

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it clear that America is no longer wedded to the idea. Two states, one

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state, I can live with either one, he said. My guest is Tzipi Livni.

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She is the head of the Zionist Union movement in the Israeli parliament

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and a former Foreign Minister. She said that the only way to achieve

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foreign peace is to have two states for two people. But why is that?

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Could one state where dues, Muslims, and Muslims live in peace? -- the

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Jewish people, Muslims, and Christians live in peace?

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Tzipi Livni, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you Sarah. Why do you think

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the only solution is to stay for two people? The conflict is a national

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conflict between two national movements, one desires, which acted

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for many years in order to establish a state for the Jewish people, and

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the other is the national Palestinian movement. And as far as

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my understanding goes, and according to negotiations that we had before,

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the idea is to end the conflict and to end all claims between these two

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movements, the state of Israel and the Palestinians is to have

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different states for two different peoples, and which people implement

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their own right of self determination. And in Israel, Israel

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is a Jewish democratic state, and the meaning is that Israel is the

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nationstate of the Jewish people, with integral rise to all of its

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citizens, because it is a democracy, and because this is also our Jewish

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values. There is an argument that that has been tried for decades, or

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at least that has been the ambition for decades, unsuccessfully, which

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is perhaps one reason that the Israeli President talks about

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annexing the occupied territories, and he says that there won't be one

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law for Israel rallies and another for non- Israelis, you would grant

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citizenship to all residents, and it would be one Gallagher and

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democracy. This was the idea of many members, including my parents, after

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1967. The idea was that we would give equal rights to those living

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between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean Sea, but in the end,

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this one, can lead to a situation in Israel in which it would stop being

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a true Jewish democratic state. We could have one state with everybody

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living there, but I don't think it would be living happily ever after,

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it would be more bloody, with this ongoing conflict amongst us. I

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believe this is the vision of Zionism, to create a state of the

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Jewish people, and in this state, everybody is an equal right citizen.

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Is it down to demographics, then, the idea that if you take in 2.5

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million Palestinians, that is the end of the Jewish state? Yes. In the

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end, listen... We live and my values are to keep in harmony the values of

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Israel as a Jewish democratic state. But this is also an issue of number.

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We need to have a Jewish majority in order to maintain the value and not

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have a clash between parties. Sopai had to start between the entire land

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of Israel and keeping the state of Israel as a Chua crash -- Jewish

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Ducati state, I prefer to divide the land and to keep the Israeli values.

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I would buy to refer, also, too... This is also the idea back in 1947,

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when the United Nations wanted to end the ongoing conflict that was

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here before the state of Israel was established. And the whole idea was

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to divide the land into two different states. Just on this

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question, the idea of what one state could look like. The PLO Secretary

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General has warned that the way that some people envisage it, you would

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have - it would be an apartheid system. Is that something you fear,

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to? Israel would not be an apartheid state. I would fight against it

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inside Israel, because this is against our values. -- too. You

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recognise that as a fear of having one state, do you? I believe that

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this is something that most of us, Israelis, would reject. This is

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against our values. And therefore, in choosing between all the options,

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as an Israeli, I believe that the Israeli interest is to divide the

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land into two different states. Frankly, I am not fighting for the

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establishment of a Palestinian state. I am fighting in order to

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keep Israel as a Jewish democratic state. And from his point of view,

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he is fighting to fight and create a Palestinian state, because he

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represents the national aspirations of the Palestinians. I would like to

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say something about what President Trump said. What he said was what

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make you happy makes me happy, but he also said it depends on both

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sides. So in a way, I am not against thinking outside of the box. And the

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other idea they can give an answer to our aspirations, to the

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Palestinian aspirations, and keep Israel as such, B. I mean... But as

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you said, this is exactly the point that he made, that it has worked so

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far. He said it is something very different that has not been

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discussed before. He went on to say it was a bigger and more important

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deal it in that it would take on more countries and encompass a

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larger territory. You recognise that by opening this up, there could be

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some chance of a very different route, but one that leads to peace?

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Frankly, I believe that even before entering into their negotiations on,

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Israel is need to decide what is our direction, what is our goal. And in

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a way, when President Trump put this on the table, I am using it, in

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order to safety Israelis OK, the two options of the table. What do we

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provoke? Even understanding that there would be no situation in

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Israel in which you have two different types of citizenship,

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because Israel is not to be an apartheid state. And maybe by

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raising this option, this can lead to an internal debate in Israel,

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because I know that the vast majority of Israelis support the

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idea of two states for two peoples, not for the Palestinians, not for a

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any president of the United States, or a favour to the Arabs of

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Palestinians, but because this is a way to keep Israel as such. And so I

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believe that the debate is something that is maybe good to have. But what

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we know is that based on information that has come out in the last days,

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not least from your fellow leader of the Zionist Union, Isaac Herzog, he

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has talked of the deal that was on the table last year and the -- from

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the US Secretary of State, John Kerry, and Benjamin Netanyahu, that

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he walked away from. Selling that would cause a freeze of settlements,

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some sort of proposal for a conference on peace deal. And you

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know that I and in opposition with Isaac Herzog. What we believe is

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that the best thing for Israel is to try again and again until we find a

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way to end the complex, based on the idea of two states were two peoples.

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And opportunity. Year ago, the opportunity is still on the table in

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a way. But with regimen that Yahoo! Is by Minister, because your

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colleague has accused him of being a serial refuser and will judge on

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that failure. -- but with Benjamin Netanyahu as Prime Minister. That is

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true. But there is criticism on the other side. It is true and it is now

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more clear to the Israelis that what this coalition represents is

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something that would not lead to peace or the end of conflict, and

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more and more voices within this coalition, led like Benjamin

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Netanyahu are talking about something against the interests of

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Israel. And now what we represent is something which is completely

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different, and in the end, we will reach elections in Israel, hopefully

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sooner, and put this on the table, and say this is what I represent.

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And we represent something else. But I do agree that this is the

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responsibility of any leadership, and by refusing to all these, you

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know, Tilse or suggestions, and negotiations, that are based on not

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only be relations between the Israelis and but also on the ability

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to change the situation. -- all these, you know, ideas or is.

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-- all these, you know, ideas or suggestions.

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Most people want to normalise the situation, but the glass ceiling is

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the Israel Palestinian conflict. Unfortunately, Benjamin Netanyahu

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was not willing, couldn't, didn't want to, it was less important, to

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say yes to all of these offers that were on the table. And they are on

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the table right now, I believe. The offers are still there, but what,

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can you say no because of those with whom he is in coalition? Goes to the

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right of him? Excuse me. This is the excuse. This is the coalition that

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Benjamin Netanyahu fought. He had another coalition. We were in the

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coalition. We represented the idea of two states, or basically the idea

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of concessions and steps towards the Palestinians, and he toppled his own

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government and elections by saying that he wants to form a coalition

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based on what Benjamin Netanyahu called a natural partner. It is

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true. Would you go back into government with Benjamin Netanyahu,

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if he were to be open to accepting the deal that you say is still on

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the table, a deal to head towards peace? When a year ago, when this

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deal or the offers or what was on the table, was, when I was told

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about it, and asked whether I wanted to join the government based on

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this, I asked several questions. If you question is, frankly. Is he

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willing to free settlements outside of their blocks? Is he willing to

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give up the far right in his coalition? Is he willing to make

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more positive comments on the Arab peace initiative. When the answer

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was no, I said no to the question of whether I would join the coalition.

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And therefore, I am in the same position. The reason for me to be in

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politics and to try and move forward towards peace treaty. If we have

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problems on the way, and sometimes we have problems on the way, so

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let's and find a way to move forward. And settlement activities,

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especially outside of the fence, or legalising illegal outposts are a

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against what I think is in the interest of Israel. And this is

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something which should be avoided, and as long as Benjamin Netanyahu

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supports it, I cannot be party to that. OK. You talk about the

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outposts. But we are in a situation where the United Nations has again

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condemned the building of settlements, and we have had people

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suggesting, or even President Trump saying that he would like to see a

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whole back on building settlements, because it is seen as a ready

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prospect of a 2-state solution, but you are happy for there to be some

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settlements. And you continue building in settlement blocs, with

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new? Every... Also the Palestinian negotiators, I believe that any

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American president understands that when you are finalising the border

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or delineating the border between Israel and the future Palestinian

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state, we need to take into consideration what we call blocks of

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settlements. These are the places in which most of the Israelis living.

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Hundreds of thousands of them. And the good news is that it takes only

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a few percentage of the West Bank, and therefore when the Palestinian

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start speaking about adjustment to the 67 line, and want compensation

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to this, this is something that is negotiable. OK, but you will know

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that the recent UN resolution, 2334, passed in December, when the United

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States abstained, allowing it to be passed, it reaffirmed that the

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building of settlements on Palestinian territory occupied his

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1967 was a flagrant violation of international law, and did not just

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in which between the settlement blocs and the outposts.

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I am familiar with this, unfortunately and I believe that any

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understanding that this block should be part of an agreement, part of

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Israel and what I criticised the Israeli government with is when you

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do not make your priority, when you do not come saying I am willing to

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give up the places which are outside of the block, I am willing to freeze

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as a message of goodwill the outposts and settlement that are

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outside of the block so the minute the Israeli government cannot make

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these priorities the world is not making these priorities... What

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percentage of the settlement do you think are acceptable? That you

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categorise and settlement block because for people on the outside it

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is hard to get their head around this to get some sense of what you

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think is acceptable? World, are you not going to negotiate this with you

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but when I said that it takes only a few percentage is, we are all

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talking about 1 digit and therefore there are gaps... 1 digit, less than

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10% of all the settlement that have been built? Yes and this is

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something that should be negotiated between us and the Palestinians and

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they want compensation for it but it is not important what you think

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personally or what others are thinking about, settlement

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activities whether they are part of the international law or part of the

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Jewish people coming back to the land of their forefathers, we are

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talking about realities on the ground and since most Israelis that

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a living in what we call blocks of settlement, the realistic solution

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should take this into consideration because otherwise it is impossible

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to think you can reach an agreement. I can assure you, as the chief

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negotiator on the listing inside and also the Palestinian side, they

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understand this as well. In the past we got President Bush saying this

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she will be taken -- should be taken into consideration when we finalise

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an delineate the lines... We are with a different US administration,

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1 that has talked about being keen to move its embassy to Jerusalem

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from Tel Aviv and that is something you would support? I am an Israeli,

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Jerusalem is our capital. But you are also a politician, you know the

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consequences of that. But this is an American decision. Even if it were

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in west Jerusalem... This is an American decision and, as I said

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before, as an Israeli Jerusalem is our capital and I hope that you do

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not expect me... That I would represent here in HARDtalk is the

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outcome of this and what the Arabs would say... But you have in the

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past been honest enough to say, look, I going to beat politically

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correct about this and talk about settlements as a burden, this is

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something widely read the notes... As far as the embassy moved is

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concerned, it would be seen as highly provocative and unnecessary a

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move, are you not prepared to say that? No, because I believe it

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depends on whether it would be 1 step doing okay we are taking the

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embassy to Jerusalem and that is it or whether they would recognise

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things that are connected also to the interests of others in the

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region. I believe this is a question of not only taking the embassy but

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the context in which it will be done... The former director-general

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said that that would be the end of 2 states? As I said before I am sure

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the American, the new administration and I know that they started already

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asking our neighbours, the Palestinians, what would be the

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implications and it is for them to say how this is going to impact them

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and I hope that... Is it true that you have been offered a job at the

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United Nations? I prefer not to refer to this publication and

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speculation. But you had a meeting... This is going to be my

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only answer, I am sorry. But you can answer these questions. You have a

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difficulty with travelling, not least before when you came to London

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there was a summons issued for you, you are going to be going to Belgium

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in January, a trip that was cancelled and it is known that

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prosecutors as their way going to ask for you to be questioned. Do you

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have a difficulty with travelling, and fear that there would be arrest

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warrants issued from operations from when you are were a minister in

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Gaza? Note, I do not. As you know I visited London and did not go to

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Brussels for other reasons. In fact I did not know about this story. But

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I will check it. They want to say something about this in general, not

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about the and not about travelling. Israel is fighting terror and the

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operations from Gaza are against the organisation that is a religious

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conflict, it represents extremist Islamic ideology that is against not

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to say peace but even at the existence of the state of Israel...

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We only have a few minutes, the operation was in response to the

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firing of rockets into Israel... It is very important for me to say so,

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Hamas are acting in terror against our citizens and I believe is not

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only derived but the responsibility of any Israeli leader as a member of

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Cabinet to fight against any State in the free world that would do...

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But other states have not had the response the United Nations deep to

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Israel. He went report accused Israel of committing actions

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amounting to war crimes and possibly crimes against humanity... Know, I

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know that was a report and afterwards Israel opened everything,

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we're checking ourselves, our Supreme Court is checking every

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event that is happening. Frankly, Justin Morrow we are going to have

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the verdict of an Israeli soldier that acted against what we believe,

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not only international laws, but our laws, but I want to tell you

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something here, I just came from Munich, there was the security

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conference in there, as are said before, we are members of the free

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world, we are fighting together with others against terror and it is in

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order to defend civilians and avoid any civilian casualties and while

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you me these questions, the Foreign Minister of Iran has stated they

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support Hezbollah, other terror organisations. So I willing to

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answer any questions and I proud that I had in my life the

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possibility to be a member of the Israeli Cabinet and the fight

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against terror. Do you think residential thinks peace is more

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likely in the Middle East? I do not know. I want to at 1st said the

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former administration, secretary Kerry invested in it and highly

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appreciated it. The good news is that President Trump said I want to

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make a deal and he said that this is his priority and are therefore any

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American president who wants to make a deal, speaking about peace in his

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1st meeting with the Minister of Israel, it was good to hear and it

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is true that he said not only the 2 state solution but if he wants to

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invest in it, if he wants to achieve peace, let's hope this will happen

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is it is a common interest. Thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank

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you.

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