Joice Mujuru, Vice President of Zimbabwe 2004-2014 HARDtalk


Joice Mujuru, Vice President of Zimbabwe 2004-2014

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Welcome to HARDtalk.

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I'm Stephen Sackur.

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President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe is 93 years old.

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His wife recently suggested he could win re-election

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as a corpse.

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But failing that, Zimbabwe needs to grapple with

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the issue of succession.

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And will follow Mugabe?

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My guest is his former Vice President and one-time heir

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apparent Joice Mujuru.

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She broke away from the ruling party two years ago and now

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leads her own opposition party, but how tainted is she by her long

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association with Robert Mugabe?

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Joice Mujuru, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.

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How can you persuade the Zimbabwean people that you are an agent

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of change when for most of your adult life you've been one

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of Robert Mugabe's most loyal allies and associates?

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Thank you very much.

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The way how I left Zanu PF did not go down well with the rest

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of the country, because I never replied, I never did anything.

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But they know me, even during the Robert Mugabe government,

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that as much as I was loyal to my party, which I fought for,

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I was also loyal to Zimbabweans because when I ran ministries

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they know the relationship that I was building with them.

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You have a record, that's true, for more than a decade

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you were Vice President of the country, which during that

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time fell into the most terrible economic crisis to the point

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where today a quarter of your entire population is dependent

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on humanitarian aid.

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More than half of all Zimbabwe's workers are actually working

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outside the country.

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Your economy and your politics are in the most terrible mess.

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And that is your legacy, as well as Robert Mugabe's.

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True, because I was in government, yes I have to be associated

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with that failure.

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But they know whilst I was in government running social

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ministries I was never in the office, I was always

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with the people trying to introduce programmes and businesses.

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I was one of the business associates whilst I was in government to try

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and show them that I was for the better part of the country.

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It comes down to credibility, though.

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When you left, actually you were expelled from Zanu PF

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and you set up your own party, which of course now has sort

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of collapsed and you've got another party.

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But when you first left you said this: together,

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you said, we can build Zimbabwe into a modern democratic state

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with a vibrant economy where every citizen is responsible for peace,

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for freedom, democracy and we can prosper.

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Yes.

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Let's look at the record.

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You were a minister during massacres.

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Gukurahundi.

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Yes, I was Minister of Women Affairs.

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20,000 Matabele people killed. I was Minister of Women Affairs.

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You knew it. You did not say a word against it.

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I did not say a word against it but those were executive orders that

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were used by the Fifth Brigade, and I'm sure with an executive

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person what else would you do?

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But, I'm sorry, how can you persuade the citizens that you believe

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in freedom, democracy, prosperity when your record

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is so appalling.

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You didn't walk away from government.

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You never stood up to Robert Mugabe.

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Zimbabweans, as much as we would know they would not

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forget what they have gone through.

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But what they are looking forward to now is a good future.

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They are now futuristic.

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They judge people on their record. They judge...

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Hang on.

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In the past you've tried to say you didn't even know

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that the Gukurahundi killings were happening.

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Are you now prepared to say that is not true?

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You certainly knew, you just did nothing about it.

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You know, when they ask me about it, because I said by association

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I was in government, but when you say when it was being

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planned, no planning and by association is totally different.

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With all respect, Mrs Mujuru, your husband Solomon Mujuru was one

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of the most senior commanders in the Armed Forces.

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Yes.

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But what...

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So you obviously knew what was going on.

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What I know about Solomon Mujuru and the Fifth Brigade was not part

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of the Armed Forces.

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It was a brigade that was commended outside the Army.

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He only was involved when this was to be integrated into the Army.

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That's what I knew. He knew and you knew.

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That's the bottom line.

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And the Zimbabwean people have to judge you for what you did.

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Yes, they will judge.

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They will judge somebody for what she or he will have done physically.

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They will judge.

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They will judge, I think, a person's ethics and morals.

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Let's talk about different challenges you faced in government.

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2005, the Mugabe government's decision to clean out

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many of the poor people living in an official housing

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in urban areas.

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Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people rendered homeless.

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Many killed as well.

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You knew about that too.

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What did you do about that?

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There are a lot of things that I did not agree with.

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A lot of things that I did not go along with.

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Policies.

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Yes.

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You've described Robert Mugabe as a father figure.

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You have said that you felt he was grooming you to be the next

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president of Zimbabwe.

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So, you clearly were very happy to be part of a regime

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that was undertaking this sort of policy.

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It was the situation then when I was working with him.

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And I wanted to show that things can change.

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Even if they are not right.

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Things were only changing for the worse as far as I can see.

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Today we can give an example of Tanzania.

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Well, look...

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Today we can give an example of China.

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The thing is we don't need to look at other examples.

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Yes!

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We can look at what happened.

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Because what I wanted to do was to change things from within.

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But it never happened.

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And I will tell you, with the programmes that I was doing

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and which I was never given a chance to do that,

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but I can tell you a few that I did which may be angered them and hence

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they labelled me a liberal.

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I'm just trying to get to grips with your relationship

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with Robert Mugabe.

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Yeah.

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You told the South African Broadcasting Corporation just

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a month or two ago, you said that you still have respect

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for Robert Mugabe, and that you, and this is something that you said

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to them, that you are prepared to forgive him for things

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he has done.

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to Robert Mugabe.

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You're not a victim.

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You're somebody who benefited from Robert Mugabe's policies.

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You were one of his most trusted ministers.

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I will tell you.

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My party is not for retribution. We are for restitution.

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So, what we are trying to do is how best we can move forward.

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We're not going to ask them to forget.

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But we are going to ask them to look for a way how Zimbabwe

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can move forward.

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Because, if we continue to live in the past it means

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will make another move.

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Do you believe in justice? I do.

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Do you believe that all of those Zimbabweans who have suffered

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at the hands of the Mugabe regime, for all of the different policies,

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some of which I've just outlined, should they be justice?

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I've already started that. You won't believe me.

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I've been to Matabele more than seven times as from the end

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of last year and this year trying to show them that,

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you know what, when we are in this situation it doesn't mean you agree

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with everything, it doesn't mean you know everything.

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But this is how you can judge me now as Joice Mujuru with her party,

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National People's Party.

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The thing is in Matabeleland they don't believe you, do they?

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Activist Israel Dube, who is a leading campaigner

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for Matabeleland, writes, he said this of your attempt

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to reach out to his people.

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He said, "The people here will not be fooled.

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How can a Zanu PF top official, the wife of one of the most

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high-ranking national army commanders claim that she didn't

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know what happened to my people?

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She must have been blind or deaf, or both.

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She is bound by collective responsibility."

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Let me tell you.

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By collective responsibility, yes, because I was in government.

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But I've been to Matabeleland, I've also met activists,

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and we have been talking and they have been asking questions

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and I've been meeting chiefs.

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You know, the reason why I'm this bold to go and meet these chiefs,

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it means a heart in its correct place.

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You say you...

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If I had my own way I would have done it differently.

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But now that I've got my own party to tell you the truth,

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I'm very happy to meet those people.

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I'm very happy to tell them that not everything that people in government

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might have taken a role, physical role, but they will be

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with association, yes, like me.

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We'll get to your new party later. Yes.

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But let's stick with the idea of justice.

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Yes.

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Do you think that those who profited, profited to a massive

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extent from corrupt practices during the Mugabe years,

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they should be held to account, shouldn't they?

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We know corruption has done a lot of damage to the economy

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and corruption is the worst thing, it's the enemy of what is existing

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in Zimbabwe today.

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So are you prepared now to confess? Oh, yes.

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To your own corrupt behaviours. Because, I haven't...

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Uh...

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If I was corrupt with all what I've gone through people should have

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taken me in to court.

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In the interests of transparency then, let's just establish

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a few facts.

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Yes.

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How much are you worth? I only have a house.

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I only run on a farm, a farm which I'm still now

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negotiating with the owner.

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And to tell you the truth I'm very free to take everything down

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and Zimbabwe will know who I am because I'm not a rich person.

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You don't mention diamond mines.

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We know for a fact your husband Solomon Mujuru.

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Yes.

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He owned vast diamond mining interests.

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We know from various scandals, frankly, involving your daughter

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and allegations against you personally that hundreds

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of thousands of dollars' worth of diamonds and gold,

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un-certificated, were presented to European dealers on your behalf.

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Now, I just wonder where you got the diamonds and the gold from.

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Do you think if I had all that richness I would be

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suffering this much?

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Do you think since Mujuru died six years ago and they have now gone

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trust his estate they wouldn't have said something about how rich he is?

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Well, it's not just about your husband.

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Knowing Zimbabwe government... Human Rights Watch...

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Knowing Zimbabwe... Hang on.

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Let's just lay the facts on the table.

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Human Rights Watch 2009 wrote a report where they interviewed

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a number of miners in one of Zimbabwe's biggest minefields.

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They said to Human Rights Watch, "We named a portion of the diamond

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fields after Mrs Mujuru, they called it Mujuru's ant hill

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because on several nights trucks would go there and we were told

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by the police that the portion there belongs to the Vice President,

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Mrs Mujuru.

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If you go through the Cabinet if you had a chance it came

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to the Cabinet and because next to Chiadzwa I was running

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a community programme, which was producing horticultural

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produce which was being sold here in London.

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These weren't gardeners. No.

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These were diamond mines. No, no, no, no.

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I'm telling....

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And the part of the mine that they worked on was known

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as Mrs Mujuru's ant hill.

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I'm telling you the joke...

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I'm telling you the joke about the ant hill.

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It's a joke, because after they had heard that I had that they went

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to investigate as a Cabinet team, which was set by the whole Cabinet,

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and they discovered that it was a joke.

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Because these people never saw me there.

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I've never been a miner.

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I've never owned any thing in terms of business.

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So they said no, no, no, these were jokes that

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were going through between the two communities because

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they stay side-by-side.

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And they were saying, though, you changed our life

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through the horticultural project in the Cashel Valley.

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Well, it's interesting you focus on horticulture.

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The record focuses on diamond and on gold.

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Yes, that's why...

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There's a company called First Star Europe.

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Are you aware of them? No!

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I've never been involved in any thing to do with diamonds.

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Well, clearly you must be aware of First Star Europe because they...

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I heard about it because I've never seen people coming to talk

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to me about it.

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They were approached by your daughter.

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They were approached about a massive deal in gold.

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It turned out to be Congolese gold. But why is it...?

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The company discovered that you were behind

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many of the transactions.

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No...

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And they refused to deal with your daughter or with

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you because you were on a sanctions list.

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You know all of this. No, no, no, no.

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I'm telling you, these are rumours. These are social media talks.

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If I was involved...

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We have on the records statements from this company First Star saying

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that they discovered that you were behind the deal,

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they wanted nothing more to do with it and they put

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you and your daughter on a blacklist.

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That's not a social media rumour.

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I'm telling you because I'm not involved.

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I wasn't involved.

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If I was involved, how would I beat this much free from such

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a terrible incident?

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How?

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I suppose the people who will judge this other people

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of Zimbabwe, aren't they?

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Yes, they will.

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They know who I am.

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I've nothing to hide.

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And they know where you live. Yes.

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You live on Alamein Farm. Oh, yeah, Alamein Farm.

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3500 hectares. Number 4 Springfield Road.

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Yes.

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That, of course, was owned by a white farmer.

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Yes, who is a friend of mine.

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Guy Watson-Smith. Yes.

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Well, you say he is a friend of yours.

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He's been seeking compensation from you.

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You have not yet paid him.

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I will show you the e-mails, including this morning's e-mail.

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I'm on an e-mail basis with Guy Watson.

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Yes, because he wants his money.

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But I looked for him.

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He never, he never looked for me.

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You have said on the record... I looked for him...

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It wasn't fair, you said. Yes.

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I want to give him what is due to him.

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Yes, yes.

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How much have you given him?

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Not yet because the programme is still...

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Not yet? Yes.

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Because I didn't give the date.

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I didn't do anything.

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But what we agreed was this thing was supposed

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to be done according to the laws of Zimbabwe.

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He is owed for all of the assets. Yes.

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Not the land itself but the movable assets.

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Yes.

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He's owed, as I understand it, over $1.5 million.

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When are you going to pay him?

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That is between me and Guy Watson, because we are discussing as to how

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that should be handled.

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This issue of putting it on air is the one that

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is being abused by the people in the media, because they know

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that once we say that, and if there is any

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glitch or hitch, and then they will come back to both of them and say,

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why is it that you haven't been paid?

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It's because I don't have cash at the moment.

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You don't have cash? No, no, no.

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I don't have cash. Well...

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But what we do have is the arrangement that we have to organise

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the two of us, and we are in agreement as to how things have to

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be handled.

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So, let us be clear then. Yes.

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When you say it wasn't fair the way you acquired the land,

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are you saying that the entire confiscation programme run by the

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Mugabe government, which let's remind ourselves, you were a very

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senior minister of, going back to 2000 when the confiscation

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white farmland began, you're saying that was entirely wrong, are you?

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Because I never even took a farm for myself.

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That was through inheritance the way how I got Gaya's farm.

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How many farms do you own?

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Your family. Your family.

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My family? Yes.

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As Mujuru family? Yes.

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Just that one. Just that one?

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You know, I lost two farms in Shamba.

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I got Alamein Farm through inheritance.

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See, many of the families at the top of Zanu PF own

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a multiple farms.

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I have never acquired a farm.

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I got Alamein Farm through inheritance.

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Are you saying...?

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And the family lost two farms which they had.

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You see, you're running for office. Yes.

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I think you want to run ultimately for President.

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Yes, yes.

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So, are you saying to the people of Zimbabwe

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that if you win power you will either return the land to their

0:17:150:17:19

original owners, or you will offer

0:17:190:17:20

fair compensation to every white farmer?

0:17:200:17:27

Is that what you're saying?

0:17:270:17:29

Yes, fair compensation.

0:17:290:17:30

There is a law to that.

0:17:300:17:32

We are for constitutionalism, the constitution has to be followed

0:17:320:17:34

and we know personal rights, you know, rights, have to be

0:17:340:17:37

respected so property rights have to be respected.

0:17:370:17:42

We don't want to take things for granted.

0:17:420:17:46

Because it's hard for somebody to come up with something

0:17:460:17:49

for the family.

0:17:490:17:53

What about the indigenisation programme?

0:17:530:17:58

We've talked earlier about the failings, the disastrous

0:17:580:18:01

state of the Zimbabwean economy.

0:18:010:18:02

One of the things which makes it very difficult for foreign direct

0:18:020:18:05

investment to come into your country are now the rules

0:18:050:18:08

on what's called indigenisation.

0:18:080:18:09

Would you roll all of those back too?

0:18:090:18:11

That we have already spoken about it.

0:18:110:18:13

As the party that we are going to repeal it.

0:18:130:18:16

We are going to repeal it because we are for investment.

0:18:160:18:19

We want investors, both local and international to come and help

0:18:190:18:22

us as we are rebuilding our economy.

0:18:220:18:27

You see, I'm still struggling on this.

0:18:270:18:29

Yeah.

0:18:290:18:29

Everything you said suggests to me that on every policy issue,

0:18:290:18:32

every strategy, every human rights abuse, you post,

0:18:320:18:34

albeit privately, everything that Robert Mugabe did.

0:18:350:18:36

But there you sat by his side as his deputy and Vice President

0:18:360:18:40

from 2004 to 2014.

0:18:400:18:41

It doesn't mean I agreed with him.

0:18:410:18:44

It doesn't mean I agreed with him.

0:18:440:18:46

But it gets even more dysfunctional because in 2011 your husband

0:18:460:18:51

Solomon Mujuru, who we have talked about, he was burned to death

0:18:510:18:58

at the farm that we've just discussed.

0:18:580:18:59

Now, he, according to many people in Zimbabwe, didn't die by accident,

0:18:590:19:03

he was murdered.

0:19:030:19:06

You say you believe he was murdered by people connected to the Mugabe

0:19:060:19:10

regime, and yet for three more years you still served as Vice President.

0:19:100:19:13

How could you?

0:19:130:19:14

I am telling you, I fought in that party.

0:19:140:19:17

I wanted to change from within.

0:19:170:19:26

If you follow issues and programmes that I did I thought

0:19:260:19:29

I was going to win.

0:19:290:19:30

That's why nine out of ten provinces had decided to do what they thought

0:19:300:19:34

was right and chose the leadership that they wanted, which Mugabe

0:19:340:19:37

did not like and that leadership was in support of me.

0:19:370:19:40

How could you, just a few months ago, describe Robert Mugabe

0:19:400:19:48

as a father figure when you seem to believe that people close to him

0:19:480:19:52

are responsible for the murder of your husband?

0:19:520:19:54

He appeared to be a father figure to me.

0:19:540:19:57

And that I should not run away from.

0:19:570:19:59

Because during this trouble these were people who were giving

0:19:590:20:01

leadership to everyone who was in this trouble.

0:20:010:20:04

And, mind you, according to our custom these other respects

0:20:040:20:06

that we give to our seniors.

0:20:060:20:08

It calls into question your judgment.

0:20:080:20:10

About Mugabe?

0:20:100:20:10

About everything.

0:20:100:20:13

Everything we've discussed.

0:20:130:20:15

It is hard to understand how your political career makes any

0:20:150:20:18

sense at all.

0:20:180:20:25

If you have morals, ethics, principles it's very hard

0:20:250:20:27

to understand anything you have done.

0:20:270:20:29

The issue is you have never been to Zimbabwe.

0:20:290:20:31

The issue is you have never seen what personally I have done

0:20:310:20:34

for the country of Zimbabwe.

0:20:340:20:36

The issue is you have never come to Zimbabwe to interview

0:20:360:20:39

for yourself those people to say, how do you take Joice as a person?

0:20:390:20:43

Well, actually I have been to Zimbabwe and I have

0:20:430:20:45

reported from Zimbabwe.

0:20:450:20:46

You have not... You have not...

0:20:460:20:48

You have been...

0:20:480:20:49

So I think I have a little bit of an idea how Zimbabwe

0:20:490:20:53

and politics works.

0:20:530:20:53

So, let's...

0:20:530:20:54

We don't have much time.

0:20:540:20:55

Let's get to the future.

0:20:550:20:57

You have been there but you have not asked about me.

0:20:570:21:00

Well, I have, actually.

0:21:000:21:01

No.

0:21:010:21:01

Yes, I have. No.

0:21:010:21:02

CHUCKLES

0:21:020:21:05

Let's talk about the future.

0:21:050:21:06

You've laid out and discussed your record You seem to believe that

0:21:060:21:09

as a record that will appeal to the people of Zimbabwe.

0:21:090:21:12

You set up a party, Zimbabwe People First,

0:21:120:21:14

and within a year of setting it up there was infighting,

0:21:140:21:17

there was division and the party has collapsed with some of its senior

0:21:170:21:21

figures, including a former minister, Didymus Mutasa,

0:21:210:21:23

accusing you of being dictatorial and expelling

0:21:230:21:25

you from your own party.

0:21:250:21:26

It wasn't... We expelled them...

0:21:260:21:30

Because right now, ask who has the people.

0:21:300:21:40

Who formed National People's Party?

0:21:410:21:42

Where have they come from?

0:21:420:21:43

Half of them have been people who have never been in politics

0:21:430:21:46

and if they didn't want to be boggled down by things of the past.

0:21:460:21:50

And the other half is comprised of people who have come from other

0:21:500:21:54

parties to form National People's Party.

0:21:540:21:55

The people you set up this party with now say you are impossible

0:21:550:21:59

to work with.

0:21:590:22:00

You've changed the name of your own

0:22:000:22:02

party to the National People's Party.

0:22:020:22:06

Are you prepared to work with perhaps the best-known

0:22:060:22:08

opposition figure in Zimbabwe, Morgan Tsvangirai, as a joint ticket

0:22:080:22:11

to run for President against Mugabe if he runs in 2018,

0:22:110:22:14

you will run with Tsvangirai, will you?

0:22:140:22:16

Excellent, because we've already started talking about coalition.

0:22:160:22:18

And who will take the ticket?

0:22:180:22:20

Who will actually run for President, you or Tsvangirai, under

0:22:200:22:23

this coalition agreement?

0:22:230:22:23

It's part of the process that we are carrying on right now,

0:22:230:22:27

which I can't say who is who because it's part of the results

0:22:270:22:30

that we're going to come up with.

0:22:300:22:32

But between Morgan and myself, we are working together very well.

0:22:320:22:35

We have done a few, you know, addresses together,

0:22:350:22:37

a few demonstrations together.

0:22:380:22:42

And right now we are actually working on a road map,

0:22:420:22:45

MoU, so that we are able to work together.

0:22:460:22:48

Would you accept Morgan Tsvangirai being the head, the leader,

0:22:480:22:51

the figurehead of this movement and being the candidate

0:22:510:22:54

for President in 2018?

0:22:540:23:00

Anyone.

0:23:000:23:01

Anyone who is chosen according to our discussion I will be able

0:23:010:23:04

to work with.

0:23:040:23:05

The former finance minister Tendai Biti says Zimbabwe

0:23:050:23:07

is an unstable, fragile state that is on the verge of implosion.

0:23:070:23:10

Would you agree with that?

0:23:100:23:11

That is his analysis.

0:23:110:23:12

You know Biti has been a minister of finance.

0:23:120:23:18

Yes.

0:23:180:23:20

And he understands. Yes.

0:23:200:23:21

What has been going on.

0:23:210:23:23

The mess that has been made of your country over the last,

0:23:230:23:26

let's say 20 years, at least.

0:23:260:23:28

He would tell you exactly what happened during his time

0:23:280:23:30

of office as Minister of Finance.

0:23:310:23:32

He would be the better person because if I tell you myself

0:23:320:23:36

you might say you are singing your former party's song.

0:23:360:23:39

But ask some of those people whom I was working

0:23:390:23:42

with, including Tendai.

0:23:420:23:44

In a word, you oversaw the collapse of Zimbabwe.

0:23:440:23:48

Do you really think you're the right person

0:23:480:23:50

to oversee its revitalisation?

0:23:500:23:55

Yes, because I know how to change.

0:23:550:23:57

I know how to involve people who matter and these other people

0:23:570:24:00

who have come to work with me.

0:24:000:24:02

All right, Joice Mujuru, thank you very much.

0:24:020:24:04

Thank you very much.

0:24:040:24:05

Thanks for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.

0:24:050:24:07

Thank you. My pleasure.

0:24:070:24:09

Good evening.

0:24:310:24:35

We've got a lot of largely dry and pretty mild weather on the cards

0:24:350:24:39

for much of the week ahead.

0:24:390:24:41

But, with clear skies Sunday night, Monday morning starts on quite

0:24:410:24:44

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