23/02/2017 House of Commons


23/02/2017

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are no further points of order, and I think you go racing that, we come

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to the presentation of bills, secretary Elizabeth truss.

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Prisoners... Second reading, what they? Tomorrow. We now come to the

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motion in the name of the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party on

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Armed Forces and investigations in prosecution of historical cases to

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move the motion I call said Jeffrey Donaldson. And be half of my white

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honourable and honourable friends I am delighted to move this motion in

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the name of the Democratic Unionist party at let me say from the outset

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that the veterans of our Armed Forces and those who served in the

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police, not only in Northern Ireland but cost United can do, I the

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highest esteem by this party, and we have always sought to use our

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Parliamentary time to raise issues are of concern to them. We're glad

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to do so again on this occasion. I welcome the opportunity of this

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debate and I think all of my colleagues and all those who are in

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attendance including the ministers from both Ireland office and the

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Ministry of Defence. Mr Speaker, the legacy of our troubled past remains

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a matter for this parliament and for the government of the United Kingdom

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to deal with full. Our motion refers to other theatres of conflict, Iraq,

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Kosovo and Afghanistan and I wouldn't want at the outset to play

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tribute to all of those who have served and especially those who have

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died in the servers of our country in each of these operations. I know

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the bubble honourable right honourable member 's will which to

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refer to them and their remarks, but the House will forgive me if I could

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concentrate merely on the situation in Northern Ireland. With good

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reason. Let me again remind colleagues the operation Banner was

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the longest running military operation in the history of the

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Army. During the period known as the troubles in Northern Ireland, there

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were over three and a half thousand deaths, of these over 2000, 60%,

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were murders carried out by Republican paramedic tree catalysts,

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mainly the provisional IRA. Over 1000 were carried out by loyalist

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paramilitaries some 30%. British and Irish state forces were responsible

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for Thames and of the deaths, almost all of which occurred as result of

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entirely lawful actions where soldiers and police officers acted

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to safeguard life and property and uphold the rule of law. In fact, a

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member of the security forces in Northern Ireland was three times

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more likely to be killed than a member of the IR A. Contrast this

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with Iraq, for example, where terrorist insurgents were three

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times more likely to be killed the members of the Armed Forces. ---

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then a member of the IRA. I think it sets the Northern Ireland situation

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into context. Let me restate that paramilitary terrorists were

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responsible for some 90% of the deaths in Northern Ireland and on

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both sides of the border. Whereas, 10% of deaths are attributable to

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state forces. Of these deaths, there are over 3000 unsolved murders

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arising from our troubled past. What a terrible legacy this is, one of

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pain and loss and a deep sense of injustice on the part of the victims

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and their families. Let me be clear, there can be no moral or legal

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equivalent is between police, our Armed Forces and those who were

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members of illegal, criminal, terrorist organisations. So, let us

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contrast how the two have been treated. It is well accepted as a

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principle that in a democracy nobody should be above the law. And yet, as

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will become clear for my remark is that appears to be one rule for

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those who serve our country and another for those whose objective is

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to destroy it for. Unfortunately, these legacy issues were not

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adequately addressed, never mind resolved in the deeply flawed

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Belfast agreement of Good Friday. Instead, the government agreed to

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release Ali from prison those prisoners sentenced for offences

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linked to the troubles in Northern Ireland. --- to release early. And

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who were members of a terrorist organisation on ceasefire and

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reporting volley... Terrorists who were found guilty of crimes

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including murder were released after serving any two years in jail, these

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included the example the notorious bomber Sean Kelly from the

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constituency of my right honourable friend the Member for North Belfast.

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He was sentenced to nine life terms in prison for the murder of nine

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innocent civilians, he served just seven years in jail. Less than one

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year fit each life he destroyed. In addition, and beyond the terms of

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the agreement, the then Secretary of State, the now Lord Mandelson, in

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September 2000, announced that the government would no longer seek the

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extradition of those provisional IRA prisoners who had escaped including

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several who had escaped from the maze prison in my constituency in

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1983. This included convicted terrorists. And former head of the

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provisional IRA. Someone who was convicted of the murder of the

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deputy governor of the maze prison. The governor, who was shot in front

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of his wife, what an appalling atrocity. Liam Avril, convicted of

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the sectarian murder of two Protestants, and who escaped from

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the maze prison dressed as a woman in 1997. And yet the extradition was

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not sought by the government of the day. In addition, perhaps up to 30

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provisional IRA terrorists have been granted the royal prerogative of

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mercy and allowed to go free. In 2001 the then Labour government

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sought to extend this concession further so that an amnesty would be

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introduced for all members of terrorist organisations on

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ceasefire. In a letter dated the 4th of May, 2001, the then Secretary of

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State Doctor John Reid Road to the Prime Minister Tony Blair, and in

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that letter Doctor Reid stated, in the Hillsborough statement of the

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8th of March, we accepted publicly for the first time that it would be

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a natural development of the early release scheme to discontinue the

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prosecution of pre-Good Friday Agreement offences allegedly

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committed by supporters of organisations now on ceasefire. In

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the same letter to the Prime Minister, Doctor Reid said, and made

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clear that the legislation to provide for this amnesty, should

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exclude members of the security forces from the amnesty

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arrangements, though we should not underestimate the difficulty of

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holding this line in Parliament in the face of an inevitable press

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campaign. You bet, Doctor Reid. We opposed it and we opposed it

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vigorously, and we stopped it in its tracks and I'm confident this

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government would never consider such a concession to those who have

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committed murder on the streets of Northern Ireland, and indeed in

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Great Britain. But note an amnesty was offered. And amnesty was put on

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the table for terrorist organisations, whilst the members of

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our security forces were to be excluded. Just as they were excluded

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and ignored in the agreement in 1998. Well, Doctor Wright, Doctor

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Reid was certainly right about the opposition that he would face to

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such a reprehensible scheme but it didn't stop there. A secret deal was

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then done between the Northern Ireland Office and Sinn Fein to the

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benefit of provisional IRA terrorists who were still on the

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run, few were fugitives from justice. They were wanted for

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questioning relation to serious terrorist relating offences

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including murder. Four letters of comfort were issued by the Northern

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Ireland Office to each of these terrorists, sometimes delivered by

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the post man Gerry Kelly from North Belfast, informing them that there

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were no warrants in existence, nor were they wanted in Northern Ireland

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for rest, questioning or charging by the police. Issuing of these letters

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by The Northern Ireland Office resulted in the disgraceful

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situation, where an alleged IRA member, John Downie, was able to

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escape conviction in the courts in London, for the murder of four

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soldiers in the Hyde Park bombings of 1982 full stop Madam Deputy

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Speaker, I could go on. But I think it's important now that we focus on

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the sacrifice of the security forces. Of those who served our

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country. According to the Sutton index of death in the Troubles in

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Northern Ireland there were 520 regular army Royal Navy, Royal air

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Force, reserves and veterans murdered by terrorists during

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Operation Banner. In addition, there were 243 members of the Ulster

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Defence Regiment, the Royal Irish Regiment, and veterans, murdered by

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terrorists. There were 325 Royal Ulster Constabulary, other

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constabularies and retired police of his is murdered by terrorists. There

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were 26 prison officers and former prison officer is murdered by

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terrorists. Madam Deputy Speaker, that amounts to 1100 men and women

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in the service of the Crown who were murdered by terrorists and countless

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others who were seriously injured and left to bear the mental and

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physical scars of this reign of terror. I'm very grateful to the

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honourable member for giving way and he's speaking very powerfully about

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the victims of terror. One is my uncle, who sits in the other plays,

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who was attacked brutally by IRA men one who was representing our country

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in Brussels. There are so many scars that are hidden by the statistics. I

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understand why he mentions them. But they are hidden because they are not

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listed and yet they bear those scars today, even when they were unharmed

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physically. The honourable member is absolutely right and as I have just

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said, there are countless others who were seriously injured and left to

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bear the mental and physical scars of this reign of terror. It is

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evidence, Madam Deputy Speaker, that little effort has been made to bring

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to justice those responsible for the seen as crimes, committed by the

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terrorist organisations who were responsible for 90% of the deaths in

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the Northern Ireland Troubles. Yet enormous resources, hundreds of

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millions of pounds, of taxpayers' money, and countless hours of

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valuable police time, has been devoted to hounding the security

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forces to vigorously pursuing, investigations against former

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veterans of the Armed Forces and retired lease officers. The Chief

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Constable did establish the historical enquiries team, that

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sought to re-examine the unsolved murders in Northern Ireland, but it

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could only review the previous police investigations and it lacks

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full police powers to renew the investigation of these killings. It

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was eventually wound up and the Police Service of Northern Ireland

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established a new legacy investigation Branch to act as a

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temporary measure until wider agreement could be secured on the

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legacy issues. Today, madam Deputy Speaker, the PSNI's legacy

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investigation Branch devotes a wholly disproportionate level of its

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resources to the investigation of killings linked to the security

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forces and hopelessly inadequate resources to the thousands,

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thousands of unsolved terrorist murders. Recently we have witnessed

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two retired veterans of the Parachute Regiment, aged 67 and 65,

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charged with murder, in connection with the shooting of IRA commander

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Joe McCann in Belfast in 1972. This follows the decision to prosecute a

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75-year-old veteran of the lifeguards, who has been charged

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with the attempted murder of a man in County Tyrone 1974. Whilst the

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families of thousands of innocent victims, including over 1000 cases

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involving the murder of police officers, soldiers and prison

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officers, wait in vain for some action to be taken to investigate

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those crimes, the police are devoting resources towards

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investigating the small number of killings linked to the state. I

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apologise for not being here at the start and I apologise for not being

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here for the whole of the debate but I want to salute him and his

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colleagues in the DUP for today holding this debate, which is hugely

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important. The point he's just made about the disproportionate number of

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investigations into former soldiers and police officers, is he aware

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that the Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland has

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issued effectively a fatwa to news organisations across the United

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Kingdom, that had the temerity to make any criticism of Mr McCrory,

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and that they will be served with legal proceedings. Does that not

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illustrate the attempt that is being made by some in Northern Ireland to

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ensure that they get a soldier in the dock for something that happened

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45 years ago? It's completely immoral. Well, we do have freedom of

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the press in Northern Ireland and it's important that we all recognise

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and respect the freedom of the press and the facts speak for themselves.

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I've already outlined some of those facts. I think there are many in

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Northern Ireland who wonder why the justice system is so focused on what

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the state did and devotes so little of its energy and time towards what

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the terrorists did. I'm following closely his remarks. Does he agree

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with me that the end result of all of this is that Sinn Fein is winning

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the war, by which I mean is managing to shift public opinion, so somehow

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the Troubles become an issue to do with the actions of the British

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state, and not to do with the murderous barbarism of terrorism

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during a period of time? And would he say also that it's having some

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measure of success in that endeavour? Madam Deputy Speaker, I

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think the honourable member for his intervention and he is absolutely

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right, and whilst the IRA did not win the war in Northern Ireland,

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Sinn Fein are trying to win the propaganda war and rewrite the

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history of the Troubles. And for our part let me be absolutely clear,

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they will not be allowed to rewrite the history of the Troubles in

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Northern Ireland. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I have said, it's

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evident that the current resources devoted towards legacy

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investigations are heavily skewed towards investigating what the

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police and the army did, and not enough is being done to address what

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the terrorists did, despite the fact that they were responsible for over

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90% of the deaths in Northern Ireland and in other parts of the

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UK. It is wrong that the full powers and finances of the state are

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devoted to prosecuting the men and women who stood in the front line in

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the most difficult of to defend the entire community and to uphold the

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rule of law. I thank the right honourable member for giving way.

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Would he agree with me as he delivers his powerful speech

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regarding this, that to comp claim -- to compound matters in the last

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few weeks a number of veterans' groups are organising events to

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highlight this problem is that we are highlighting and one of those

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groups attempted to organise peaceful demonstrating, a peaceful

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laying of a wreath in Londonderry a couple of weeks ago, and were forced

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to cancel as a result of threats from dissident organisation, which

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compounds the problem is he's highlighted today in Parliament? I

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thank the envelope -- Honourable member for East Londonderry for his

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intervention. There are some in Northern Ireland who talk much about

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respect and equality, who talked much about discrimination, and yet

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the same people were silent when it came to the violent, violent threats

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made against some veterans, who simply wanted to exercise their

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Civil Liberties to march to the Cenotaph in Londonderry and lay a

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wreath in remembrance of their comrades. Some respect there, some

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equality there, and I think it is the case that some in Northern

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Ireland politics speak with forked tongue. Madam Deputy Speaker, when

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we add to all of these things the fact that legacy inquests and

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investigations by the office of the police ombudsman are also laying

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bare the modus operandi of the counter-terrorism organisations --

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operations by the army and police that brought the terrorists in

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Northern Ireland to their knees and help secure the relative degree of

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peace we enjoy today, then we should all be concerned, because it's our

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national security. It's the security of every UK citizen that is put at

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risk, when we allow the operations of the security forces to be exposed

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in this way through the legal system, and we must bear in mind

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there is a continuing threat. A police officer yesterday targeted by

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Republican terrorists in County Londonderry, and another police

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officer shot in the constituency of my right honourable friend the

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member for North Belfast. That terrorist threat remains and yet

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here we are exposing how the security forces counter that violent

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extremism and terrorism. Madam Deputy Speaker, we can be sure of

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this. Putting soldiers and police officers in the dock whilst the

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terrorists walk free is an expediency that will cost us dear in

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years to come, if we don't do something about it now. I thank him

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for giving way. He highlights their one of the critical issues which I'm

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hearing from both young and older Armed Forces personnel and those who

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are considering this pressure, this risk to serving our nation and the

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long-term impact it could have on them and their families decades down

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the line, is actually stopping people from signing up, and it's

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She is absolutely right. Not only is earlier than they otherwise would.

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She is absolutely right. Not only is this a affecting the morale of those

:20:32.:20:36.

who serve at present, but it is acting as a huge disincentive for

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recruitment to our Armed Forces. Who wants to put themselves on the front

:20:41.:20:43.

line in circumstances where a few years down the road, because of

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so-called human rights lawyers, we will see these young men and women

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betrayed? And it simply is not right. And this is being realised

:20:53.:20:58.

rather belatedly but with the welcome decision to close down the

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Iraq historical allegations team. Consider the damage to the morale of

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our Armed Forces and the consequences this has had with a

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marked downturn in recruitment and retention. While so-called human

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rights lawyers get rich with the lucrative returns such cases can

:21:17.:21:21.

bring, mainly from the public purse, the men and women in the front line

:21:22.:21:24.

defending our country find it hard to avoid a sense of betrayal. I have

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heard that from many of them. All rights thinking people should rail

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against this. The Stormont House Agreement reached between the

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Government and the political parties in Northern Ireland made clear there

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would be no amnesty for terrorist related crimes. And its proposed a

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new set of institutions to deal with other troubled past. Let me be

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clear. This party stands by the Stormont House Agreement. We stand

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by our commitment that we will not accept an amnesty for the

:21:58.:22:01.

terrorists. And we endorse the institutions that have been proposed

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under that agreement, including a new historical investigations unit,

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which would have full police powers and would take over the work of the

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PS and I's legacy investigation Branch. And the responsibility for

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reinvestigating unsolvable murders linked to the troubles in Northern

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Ireland. We welcome that unsupported and we believe that the sooner we

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can get that new institution up and running the better for everyone and

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especially for the innocent victims. However, the Stormont House

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Agreement has not yet been implemented. This is due to an

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impasse that has arisen between the Government and Sinn Fein over

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national security. It is a ridiculous state of affairs that the

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political party linked to the largest terrorist organisation

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responsible for the most murders during the troubles has a veto, has

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a beta of the fermentation of a policy that would give the innocent

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victims access to proper investigation and the prospect of

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justice. Surely in a democracy this is not right. This cannot be right.

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That Sinn Fein are being handed a veto over proper investigator

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process into the murders of the people who were killed by the

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provisional IRA. It is nonsense and when Sinn Fein talk about respect,

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when they talk about equality, while then let's have some respect for the

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innocent victims of the IRA. And let's see the Stormont House

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agreements taken forward and Sinn Fein's veto swept aside.

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Thank you for giving way and is to apologise I will not be at the end

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of the debate because Abdou attend a constituency event this evening in

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memory of some victims. There is a need to build a new process that

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allows an investigation into those cases that have already went through

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the historical enquiries team. Otherwise they will be left only

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with the review and not a new investigation.

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I think the honourable member for his intervention and support for the

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institutions that are proposed under the Stormont House Agreement. It is

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the case that at present, and unfairness to the victims and

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families who have waited a long time, that the proposal is that the

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historical investigations unit would pick up where the H E T left.

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Nevertheless, we support very clearly that if there is new

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evidence or new evidence gathering techniques that have the potential

:24:57.:25:00.

to lead to a prosecution in the cases already reviewed by the HCT,

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then of course the historical investigations unit should examine

:25:05.:25:10.

those cases and we have no objection. We believe that all

:25:11.:25:14.

innocent victim should have access to justice and be treated equitably

:25:15.:25:22.

and fairly. In drawing towards a conclusion, can I say that it is

:25:23.:25:26.

important that the Government now proceeds with the Stormont House

:25:27.:25:29.

Agreement. It is important that the Government gets on with publishing

:25:30.:25:32.

the draft legislation to give the innocent victims and others be

:25:33.:25:38.

opportunity to comment on this proposal so that at last we can

:25:39.:25:42.

begin the process of establishing what has been agreed. This means

:25:43.:25:48.

that the brokers will no longer solely be on what the states did. --

:25:49.:25:54.

focus. It will ship the bogeys and it will address the issues that have

:25:55.:26:00.

already been raised in this house about the attempts to rewrite

:26:01.:26:04.

history. Because it means that the IRA and the other terrorist

:26:05.:26:07.

organisations will be put under the spotlight. What they did will be

:26:08.:26:13.

examined and brought to the fore. It is wrong that our retired veterans

:26:14.:26:17.

of the military and the police have to spend their last days looking

:26:18.:26:21.

over their shoulders. We're still waiting for the knock at the door.

:26:22.:26:26.

Whilst at the terrorists to sculpt in the shadows and destroyed

:26:27.:26:28.

countless lives on the streets without a care in the world about

:26:29.:26:32.

the prospect of being pursued for their crimes. That simply is not

:26:33.:26:38.

right. The terrorists must be pursued. They must be made amenable

:26:39.:26:45.

for their crimes. And therefore we do not believe and we will

:26:46.:26:51.

vigorously oppose any attempt to grant an amnesty to any terrorist

:26:52.:26:57.

organisation for what they've done. However, the time is come with the

:26:58.:27:01.

Government to finally do something to protect the men and women who

:27:02.:27:06.

served our country. They were not provided for in the 1998 agreement.

:27:07.:27:12.

Whilst the terrorists well. Special provision was made for the

:27:13.:27:15.

terrorists in 1998 in the form of the early release scheme. And other

:27:16.:27:19.

concessions have been made since then that I outlined earlier in my

:27:20.:27:25.

remarks. But nothing has been done for those who served the crime. And

:27:26.:27:31.

I think that is wrong and I think it needs to be addressed. Therefore we

:27:32.:27:35.

believe that the Government must give urgent consideration to

:27:36.:27:39.

introducing a statute of limitations for soldiers and police officers who

:27:40.:27:44.

face the prospect of prosecution in cases which, and this is very

:27:45.:27:49.

important, in cases which have previously been the subject of a

:27:50.:27:57.

full police investigations. That maybe Clare. We're talking about

:27:58.:28:02.

cases that were previously the subject of police investigation.

:28:03.:28:06.

Cases related to killings and deaths that occurred before 1998. And I

:28:07.:28:11.

think the Government needs to look at this. It is wrong that our

:28:12.:28:17.

veterans are sitting at home wondering if perhaps a third or a

:28:18.:28:20.

fourth investigation is now going to take place into their case, simply

:28:21.:28:30.

because some hot fast thinking make a quick buck human rights lawyer in

:28:31.:28:34.

Belfast things it is a good idea to reopen this case. That is what is

:28:35.:28:37.

going on. That is what is going on here. And therefore we believe it

:28:38.:28:43.

has to be addressed. We can no longer ignore this and certainly, we

:28:44.:28:47.

on the side of the house have not been ignoring it. And we believe

:28:48.:28:51.

that a statute of limitation should not only apply to Northern Ireland

:28:52.:28:57.

but consideration should also be given to other military deployments

:28:58.:29:00.

including Iraq, Kosovo and Dagestan. This is not an amnesty. As each case

:29:01.:29:06.

will previously been the subject of a thorough investigation. It is

:29:07.:29:13.

appropriate and necessary measure to protect the men and women of our

:29:14.:29:16.

Armed Forces from the kind of witch hunts that years after their

:29:17.:29:20.

retirement have left many feeling that their service to this country

:29:21.:29:28.

is neither respected nor valued. I apologise. Perhaps he will forgive

:29:29.:29:35.

me a game for mentioning that in 2013 are published a paper with

:29:36.:29:38.

policies change which address many of these issues and Dewsbury at the

:29:39.:29:43.

absolute essence of it. In this very section that he's speaking about now

:29:44.:29:47.

really touching on the core of it. Because what we are addressing this

:29:48.:29:50.

what are human rights, what really they mean. There surely the rights

:29:51.:29:56.

people to live in peace and dignity and not simply the rights of some to

:29:57.:30:00.

persecute those who have tried to protect others.

:30:01.:30:05.

I thank the honourable member for that very valid intervention. He is

:30:06.:30:09.

a absolutely right and we appreciate the work that he has done in this

:30:10.:30:14.

field and his commitment to its former comrades. In conclusion, we

:30:15.:30:19.

are Northern Ireland... Of course. Just to clarify. His

:30:20.:30:27.

proposal around the statute of limitations, would that involve a

:30:28.:30:32.

wood-mac police officers are Northern Ireland as well? I should

:30:33.:30:37.

said at the start I do welcome the debate and welcoming for bringing

:30:38.:30:40.

this forward. The answer is yes. The police are

:30:41.:30:48.

not covered by the provisions of the... And the concessions that have

:30:49.:30:51.

been made to the terrorists. Neither they should be. We do not see any

:30:52.:30:56.

moral or legal equivalent between the Armed Forces, the police and

:30:57.:31:00.

illegal criminal terrorist organisations. We don't want them to

:31:01.:31:03.

be treated the same but we believe that our police officers and our

:31:04.:31:06.

soldiers and our veterans should be treated fairly and they are not

:31:07.:31:13.

treated fairly. I repeat what I said in a recent debate in Westminster

:31:14.:31:16.

will I referred to terrorist atrocities that have been committed

:31:17.:31:21.

in Northern Ireland and across a busy United Kingdom. They include

:31:22.:31:28.

the Kingsmill massacre, McGurk 's bar, the hotel bombing, bloody

:31:29.:31:32.

Friday in Belfast. The city to coach Bob, the Birmingham pub bombings,

:31:33.:31:37.

the narrow water atrocity were members of the Parachute Regiment

:31:38.:31:43.

were truly cuts down in cold blood. The grand Hotel Brighton for our

:31:44.:31:47.

very democracy was attacked by the provisional IRA. The police station,

:31:48.:31:55.

the warmer more real, the bus bomb, the Shankill Road grey steel, and

:31:56.:32:03.

many others that I will not list at that were equally atrocious. No one

:32:04.:32:14.

can ever sanitise this horror. No one can ever sanitise this humanity.

:32:15.:32:18.

There will be no rewriting of history that allows the exoneration

:32:19.:32:22.

of the evil men and women who are out to commit these atrocities in

:32:23.:32:27.

cold blood. These are acts of terrorism. And they can never be

:32:28.:32:31.

regarded as anything other than acts of terrorism. I support the efforts

:32:32.:32:37.

to bring a real and lasting peace to my country. I want that. My comrade

:32:38.:32:43.

Sierra, some of whom served in our Armed Forces, others have seen

:32:44.:32:47.

constituents cuts down in cold blood, we all want to see a

:32:48.:32:52.

meaningful lasting peace in Northern Ireland. We want that for the next

:32:53.:32:57.

generation as well as for our own. As a former soldier of the Ulster

:32:58.:33:01.

Defence Regiment, proud to have served in that regiment, the largest

:33:02.:33:06.

regiment of the British Army that fought alongside other military

:33:07.:33:09.

units, alongside the Royal Ulster Constabulary with great courage and

:33:10.:33:14.

at a huge cast during the longest running military operation in the

:33:15.:33:18.

history of the British Army, operation Banner, we owe it to those

:33:19.:33:22.

men and women. We over to them to protect them.

:33:23.:33:29.

It is disturbed at the comments that were attributed to justice we're

:33:30.:33:33.

whose looking at some of these legacy cases, when he talked about

:33:34.:33:37.

the Ulster Defence Regiment are simply been setup to stop the

:33:38.:33:44.

members from doing worse in society? I have to say that as a bomber

:33:45.:33:48.

member of the Ulster Defence Regiment my father, who served for

:33:49.:33:52.

over 25 years in the bud Regiment, my brother who served in that

:33:53.:33:59.

regiment, comrade I patrolled alongside to work at stunning cold

:34:00.:34:03.

blood by the provisional IRA, I feel insulted, I feel deeply insulted by

:34:04.:34:07.

the suggestion by a justice of the High Court of Northern Ireland that

:34:08.:34:14.

somehow the raison onto true of the Ulster Defence Regiment was to keep

:34:15.:34:19.

people out of trouble. My only motivation was to stop trouble. My

:34:20.:34:23.

only motivation was to bring to boot those who were engaged in trouble. I

:34:24.:34:26.

only motivation was to protect the community. Including Mr justice

:34:27.:34:33.

we're who were the targets of terrorism. This part is not prepared

:34:34.:34:40.

to stand back and see other former comrade is vilified. We're not

:34:41.:34:45.

prepared to stand back and see the security forces and the police

:34:46.:34:49.

hounded for serving their country. And standing in the gap between

:34:50.:34:53.

democracy and tyranny, they defended ours, now we must defend them.

:34:54.:35:06.

Thank you very much, I appreciate the opportunity to speak in this

:35:07.:35:14.

important debate, and can I be clear from the outset, Operation Banner,

:35:15.:35:22.

as the House is aware, lasted for nearly 30 years. It was the longest

:35:23.:35:25.

single continuous deployment of the Armed Forces in British military

:35:26.:35:34.

history. During that period, over 250,000 people served. The Armed

:35:35.:35:37.

Forces and the RUC combines lost over 1000 men and women to

:35:38.:35:43.

terrorism. There were over 7000 awards for bravery and the Royal

:35:44.:35:48.

Ulster Constabulary was rightly awarded the George Cross. So is this

:35:49.:35:55.

government's Northern Ireland manifesto at the last election made

:35:56.:36:04.

clear, we suck salute the remarkable dedication and courage of the RUC

:36:05.:36:07.

and Armed Forces in defending the rule of law and ensuring the future

:36:08.:36:13.

of the Northern Ireland would only ever be determined by democracy and

:36:14.:36:21.

consent. Quite simply without their contribution, what we know today as

:36:22.:36:24.

the Northern Ireland peace process would never have happened. All of us

:36:25.:36:31.

across this House and throughout our United Kingdom owes them a huge debt

:36:32.:36:41.

of gratitude. Just as we owe them an enormous debt for the work and

:36:42.:36:43.

sacrifice they've made in other parts of the world referred to in

:36:44.:36:48.

the motion before Rose, in Kosovo, in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Wherever

:36:49.:36:54.

they operate we quite rightly regard our Armed Forces as the best in the

:36:55.:37:00.

world. The government asks them to put their lives on the line in order

:37:01.:37:08.

to defend us and our way of life. In return, they rightly expect the

:37:09.:37:12.

fullest support from the government and that is something that this

:37:13.:37:15.

government, through my right honourable friend the Defence

:37:16.:37:18.

Secretary and his colleagues, is determined to provide. I'm very

:37:19.:37:24.

grateful to my right honourable friend. Would he agree with me that

:37:25.:37:29.

support should extend to the costs of the provision of engaging a

:37:30.:37:33.

solicitor to advise those who have been sent letters by the MoD

:37:34.:37:37.

inviting them to unburden themselves about the events of 30 or 40 years

:37:38.:37:43.

ago in order to assist the police with their enquiries? I'm sure my

:37:44.:37:46.

right honourable friend would not want those individuals to

:37:47.:37:49.

incriminate themselves inadvertently or incriminate those they were

:37:50.:37:53.

operating with, all those years ago. If he is correct in suggesting that

:37:54.:38:00.

we should be supporting our veterans who served in Operation Banner

:38:01.:38:05.

properly, then that must surely extend to finding the cost of

:38:06.:38:08.

engaging solicitors to advise those individuals properly and

:38:09.:38:14.

appropriately. Well, the government has always acknowledged its ongoing

:38:15.:38:18.

duty of care to our former soldiers. Our policy is that where veterans

:38:19.:38:21.

face allegations concerning actions they took in the course of their

:38:22.:38:25.

duties, taxpayer funded legal support including council where

:38:26.:38:31.

appropriate will be provided for as long as its needed and in addition

:38:32.:38:36.

I'm advised the Ministry of Defence can assist veterans with welfare

:38:37.:38:38.

support either directly or in partnership with other agencies such

:38:39.:38:43.

as combat stress, depending on the veteran's individual needs

:38:44.:38:46.

circumstances. We will never accept any kind... I will give way. This is

:38:47.:38:54.

very important. He has said if allegations have been made. These

:38:55.:38:58.

letters, as I understand it, contain no allegations but will be

:38:59.:39:02.

disturbing nevertheless to these predominantly elderly gentleman that

:39:03.:39:05.

receive them and they will need to have proper advice on whether to

:39:06.:39:09.

unburden themselves in the way that is being suggested, or whether to

:39:10.:39:12.

ignore those letters. I think that advice can only come from a

:39:13.:39:16.

solicitor. My question to him is whether the MoD will provide the

:39:17.:39:19.

costs, the provision of that legal advice? All I can say if I will

:39:20.:39:24.

certainly take his point away and discussed that with colleagues from

:39:25.:39:29.

the Ministry of Defence to seek clarity for him and also to seek

:39:30.:39:33.

clarity for those who may be in receipt of those letters. But I

:39:34.:39:39.

think I need to also be clear to the House that we will never accept any

:39:40.:39:45.

kind of moral equivalence between those who sought to uphold the rule

:39:46.:39:50.

of law and terrorists who sought to destroy it. For others, politically

:39:51.:39:54.

motivated violence in Northern Ireland was never justify dashed to

:39:55.:40:03.

-- for others. Whether it was carried out by Republicans

:40:04.:40:08.

loyalists. We will never accept any attempt to place the state at the

:40:09.:40:10.

heart of every atrocity or somehow to displace the responsibility for

:40:11.:40:18.

where actions may lie. I give way. I agree wholeheartedly with the point

:40:19.:40:22.

he's making, however, yesterday at the dispatch box, the Prime Minister

:40:23.:40:25.

outlined what can only be described as the new gold standard for

:40:26.:40:30.

investigations. She made four commitments and its recorded in

:40:31.:40:36.

columns 100 and 104 Ross today's Hansard, where the system will

:40:37.:40:40.

reflect that 90% of all killings were carried out by terrorists, that

:40:41.:40:45.

there would be wrong -- would be wrong to treat terrorists more

:40:46.:40:50.

favourably than soldiers or police officers, that the investigators

:40:51.:40:53.

bodies have a duty to be fair, balanced and proportionate, and that

:40:54.:40:55.

no disproportionate investigations will take place. How will the

:40:56.:41:01.

government give effect to that gold standard that we welcome? The point

:41:02.:41:04.

is the honourable gentleman raises are very much embodied within the

:41:05.:41:08.

Stormont House agreement and the legacy bodies and institutions that

:41:09.:41:15.

his honourable friend has referenced in his opening contribution, and if

:41:16.:41:18.

I may I will come onto those issues in greater detail later on in my

:41:19.:41:23.

speech. But I do want to underline that we will not accept attempts to

:41:24.:41:28.

demonstrate the contribution of the security forces and seek to give any

:41:29.:41:33.

kind of legitimacy to violence. But being the best in the world does

:41:34.:41:37.

mean operating to the Verizon -- very highest standards. We expect

:41:38.:41:41.

nothing less and I know our Armed Forces would not have it any other

:41:42.:41:45.

way. As the noble lord spirit but it, the need to act lawfully is not

:41:46.:41:50.

aside consideration for the Armed Forces, it's an integral part of the

:41:51.:41:55.

ethos and training. We do believe in the rule of law and the police and

:41:56.:41:58.

Armed Forces are charged with upholding the law. They cannot

:41:59.:42:03.

operate above it or outside of it and where there is evidence of

:42:04.:42:05.

criminality should be investigated without fear or favour. But in our

:42:06.:42:11.

view what characterised the overwhelming majority of those who

:42:12.:42:18.

served was discipline, integrity, restraint, professionalism and

:42:19.:42:23.

bravery, and we should be proud of them. As my right honourable friend

:42:24.:42:30.

Madame Deputy Speaker my writable friend... They were subject of

:42:31.:42:38.

course to the rule of law and indeed there were soldiers, notably those

:42:39.:42:46.

sergeants and the commander of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders,

:42:47.:42:49.

who are actually charged with murder of the two civil rights campaigners

:42:50.:42:53.

in 1981 and convicted. It was subject to the rule of law and many

:42:54.:42:57.

were investigated and some were actually prosecuted and convicted. I

:42:58.:43:01.

think that my honourable friend makes that point on the upholding of

:43:02.:43:07.

the rule of law and obviously I will come back to what we judge the right

:43:08.:43:14.

next steps in terms of balance, proportionality and indeed giving

:43:15.:43:19.

effect to new arrangements to deal with the legacy issues of the past

:43:20.:43:24.

embodied within the Stormont House agreement but Madame Deputy Speaker

:43:25.:43:29.

the Prime Minister also made clear in the house yesterday, it's also

:43:30.:43:33.

appalling when people try to make a business out of trying to drag our

:43:34.:43:37.

brave troops through the courts. In that context the motion before the

:43:38.:43:42.

House welcomes the government's decision to wind up the Iraq

:43:43.:43:44.

Historic Allegations Team, following the solicitors' disciplinary

:43:45.:43:50.

tribunal hearing and the consequent decision to strike off Phil Shiner.

:43:51.:43:54.

This called into question the credibility of a large number of

:43:55.:44:00.

IHAT's remaining caseload, which will now revert to the Royal Navy

:44:01.:44:04.

police. To be clear, the government has a legal obligation to ensure

:44:05.:44:08.

that criminal allegations against the Armed Forces are investigated,

:44:09.:44:12.

but we also remain determined to ensure that our legal system is not

:44:13.:44:18.

abused, as it clearly was by Mr Shiner. Falsely to impugn the

:44:19.:44:22.

reputation of our Armed Forces and we should all support the devout --

:44:23.:44:26.

decisive action taken by my right honourable friend the Defence

:44:27.:44:31.

Secretary in this case. My right honourable friend is making an

:44:32.:44:34.

absolutely essential point about the rule of law as it must be practised

:44:35.:44:39.

by honourable members of the legal profession and he is highlighting,

:44:40.:44:45.

as I know he's a solicitor himself, the important role the solicitors

:44:46.:44:48.

disciplinary tribunal did in finding this man guilty of deception of the

:44:49.:44:53.

most abject kind. Would he please comment very slightly on how he

:44:54.:44:58.

feels the shadow Attorney General can possibly still continue to

:44:59.:45:06.

defend this extraordinary individual and claim, and yet claim, that she

:45:07.:45:10.

will represent Her Majesty's government, should that party ever

:45:11.:45:15.

be elected. It's important in that context to underline what the

:45:16.:45:20.

solicitors disciplinary tribunal hearing resulted in two and that was

:45:21.:45:28.

the decision to strike off Phil Shiner and the credibility of a

:45:29.:45:33.

large number of IHAT's remaining caseload is now firmly called into

:45:34.:45:38.

question and I think it's important that we should respect, recognise

:45:39.:45:43.

and uphold that determination by the solicitor's disciplinary tribunal. I

:45:44.:45:53.

thank the Secretary of State for giving way because he's touching on

:45:54.:45:56.

a very important point of transparency and fairness in all of

:45:57.:45:59.

these investigations. The public prosecutor in Northern Ireland was

:46:00.:46:04.

formerly the solicitor for Sinn Fein. He handed in the names of the

:46:05.:46:09.

on the run people on behalf of Sinn Fein and the government dealt with

:46:10.:46:13.

that matter and of course this matter was brought to the attention

:46:14.:46:16.

of the Northern Ireland affairs committee when it investigated the

:46:17.:46:19.

case. Does he agree with me that given a perceived conflict of

:46:20.:46:24.

interest that the director would clearly have in his knowledge about

:46:25.:46:28.

senior Republicans and their involvement in very serious and

:46:29.:46:33.

organised crimes, should resign himself now from all further parts

:46:34.:46:40.

of this matter? I'm afraid I don't agree with the honourable gentleman

:46:41.:46:46.

in that regard. I know that the Public Prosecution Service of

:46:47.:46:49.

Northern Ireland has pursued prosecutions against a number of

:46:50.:46:53.

individuals for serious terrorist crimes during the Troubles and

:46:54.:46:58.

continues to do so, as well as obviously pursuing other cases. And

:46:59.:47:02.

I think it is wrong to suggest that the PPS is in some way only applying

:47:03.:47:06.

on one side all the other. I know that there are strong feelings in

:47:07.:47:10.

this regard and I recognise that, but I think it would be wrong to

:47:11.:47:16.

personalise this in this way and it's important in terms of upholding

:47:17.:47:21.

the rule of law that we should also uphold the independence of the

:47:22.:47:24.

police and the independence of prosecutors beyond that as well

:47:25.:47:28.

stocked so I think it is important to frame it in that context but also

:47:29.:47:33.

recognising yes, the strongly held views that people may have. I'm

:47:34.:47:39.

grateful to my right honourable friend. But will he convey a message

:47:40.:47:42.

to this individual to say that sending out letters to organs of the

:47:43.:47:48.

press in this country that any criticism of him will be met by

:47:49.:47:55.

legal action is completely unacceptable. He's publicly

:47:56.:47:59.

accountable. He's publicly paid. If we want to criticise him, we are

:48:00.:48:03.

going to criticise him, and he is not going to resort to law to try to

:48:04.:48:07.

shut down newspapers which report our criticism. There's always the

:48:08.:48:13.

right of complete free speech in this House and clearly the right

:48:14.:48:17.

that we uphold democracy and the freedom of the press. I think we do

:48:18.:48:23.

though need to be careful in our comments when we seek to personalise

:48:24.:48:27.

matters. We know the consequences of that from the past. Therefore,

:48:28.:48:31.

whilst again I recognise the strongly held views that are held, I

:48:32.:48:35.

do underline that sense of independence of the prosecution

:48:36.:48:40.

service, the independence of the police, that is something that we

:48:41.:48:44.

should absolutely treasure, whilst of course holding people to account

:48:45.:48:49.

and being able to comment publicly, and that freedom that we do have,

:48:50.:48:55.

that freedom of the rule of law and the importance of that, but equally

:48:56.:48:58.

the freedom of... The freedom of the press and the freedom of this place

:48:59.:49:04.

to debate matters robustly and vigorously. I know that there are

:49:05.:49:07.

many members who want to contribute in this debate, so I will take some

:49:08.:49:11.

further interventions, but I would like to make some further progress.

:49:12.:49:15.

As many right honourable members are well aware, I will make some

:49:16.:49:20.

progress. Addressing the legacy of the pass has been one of the most

:49:21.:49:25.

difficult issues since the Belfast Agreement nearly 19 years ago -- the

:49:26.:49:30.

legacy of the past. What is clear today, as the debate highlights, is

:49:31.:49:33.

the current structures in place are simply not delivering for anyone,

:49:34.:49:40.

including victims and survivors, on all sides, who suffered most during

:49:41.:49:44.

the Troubles. The rawness of the continuing pain and emotion of

:49:45.:49:49.

families and survivors is stark and yet the need to make progress in

:49:50.:49:53.

this area is absolutely clear. The legacy of the past continues to cast

:49:54.:49:58.

a shadow over our society in Northern Ireland. It retains the

:49:59.:50:02.

ability to destabilise politics and it has the capacity to be used by

:50:03.:50:07.

those who wish to fuel division and promote terrorism, to achieve their

:50:08.:50:11.

objectives. Of course, people are always going to retain their own

:50:12.:50:15.

views on the past, which will be shaped by their own experiences of

:50:16.:50:19.

it and I acknowledge the government's view of the troubles

:50:20.:50:21.

will not be shared by everyone, nor vice versa. But where we should

:50:22.:50:27.

strive to reach consensus is on structures needed to address it and

:50:28.:50:30.

in a way that helps move Northern Ireland forward.

:50:31.:50:44.

The office of police ombudsman has to deal with allegations of

:50:45.:50:54.

historical... The PSN I have two devote substantial resorts as to

:50:55.:50:59.

dealing with historical cases. Taken as a whole, I have to recognise

:51:00.:51:08.

concerns that the current mechanisms focus does what with the cases

:51:09.:51:11.

involving the state. As a result leaving many victims of terrorism

:51:12.:51:15.

feeling ignored. None of this is to criticise any individuals, not

:51:16.:51:19.

please the police and prosecuting individuals, all of whom uphold the

:51:20.:51:23.

law independently of Government and I support them in their difficult

:51:24.:51:31.

work. We do see the shocking case of a police officer about to go to

:51:32.:51:37.

work, about to serve their community discovering that a device had been

:51:38.:51:42.

planted underneath their car. The consequences of that could be

:51:43.:51:49.

absolutely horrific and I think it underlines the bravery, the

:51:50.:51:52.

determination, the sheer public service that officers within the PSN

:51:53.:51:58.

I and others do day in day out to uphold the rule of law, to keep our

:51:59.:52:06.

communities safe and the shallowness, the evil of terrorism.

:52:07.:52:10.

That would seek to undermine that. And I know the house absolutely

:52:11.:52:13.

would underline that strong message of support to them and the work that

:52:14.:52:21.

they do. Father it is a recognition that is widely accepted that we need

:52:22.:52:26.

new and better structures for addressing these issues. The status

:52:27.:52:29.

quo is not sustainable. The Government has a duty to seek better

:52:30.:52:32.

outcomes for victims and survivors and we need legally robust

:52:33.:52:37.

mechanisms that enable us to comply with their international obligations

:52:38.:52:41.

to investigate criminal allegations. The Stormont House Agreement was

:52:42.:52:45.

about that in 2014 following 11 weeks of intensive cross-party talks

:52:46.:52:49.

with the UK Government, the five largest parties in the Northern

:52:50.:52:53.

Ireland assembly, and the Irish Government on matters falling within

:52:54.:52:55.

their responsibility. The agreement contains the most far-reaching set

:52:56.:53:01.

of proposals yet for addressing the legacy of Northern Ireland's

:53:02.:53:05.

troubled past. The historical investigations unit, the independent

:53:06.:53:09.

commission for information retrieval, the limitation and

:53:10.:53:12.

reconciliation group and an oral history archive. A number of

:53:13.:53:16.

different options were discussed during those talks. Amnesty were

:53:17.:53:20.

quickly dismissed by all the participants and are not the policy

:53:21.:53:25.

of this Government. We believe that the so-called legacy body set out in

:53:26.:53:29.

the Stormont House Agreement continued to provide the most

:53:30.:53:34.

effective way of making progress on this hugely sensitive but hugely

:53:35.:53:38.

important issue. Delivering the Stormont House Agreement including

:53:39.:53:43.

the legacy bodies and also reforming legacy inquests was a key Northern

:53:44.:53:47.

Ireland manifesto pledge for the Conservative Government at the last

:53:48.:53:51.

election. And we remain committed to this. But in doing so, I am also

:53:52.:54:00.

committed to ensure the need to ensure that former soldiers and

:54:01.:54:04.

police opposite is not unfairly treated or disproportionately

:54:05.:54:10.

investigated. That is why any legislation we bring forward will

:54:11.:54:14.

explicitly set out that all of these bodies, including the historical

:54:15.:54:18.

investigations unit will be under legal obligations to operate in ways

:54:19.:54:22.

that are fair, balanced and crew should be proportionate.

:54:23.:54:30.

I will give way. The house will be greatly reassured with the

:54:31.:54:37.

Government's concern about the lack of proportionality on path of the

:54:38.:54:43.

authorities in Northern Ireland but can't they understand that the

:54:44.:54:45.

disparity between the two is overwhelming. One whereabouts of

:54:46.:54:52.

terrorists hiding in the shadows dressed not in military uniform. The

:54:53.:54:56.

other trying to enforce the Queens peace in Northern Ireland. And all

:54:57.:55:04.

the incidences involving them are meticulously recorded. You cannot go

:55:05.:55:09.

to the National Archives and find the IRA's records of the people they

:55:10.:55:17.

brutally murdered. I absolutely recognise that sense of

:55:18.:55:21.

justice and the need for justice on all sides, which I think is

:55:22.:55:26.

absolutely underpinned in terms of what my honourable friend has just

:55:27.:55:30.

said. And yes, there are meticulously records. Meticulous

:55:31.:55:34.

records of the investigation of cases of terrorists that should be

:55:35.:55:38.

looked up properly. That is part and parcel of what I am saying on the

:55:39.:55:43.

establishment of the story go investigations unit. The terrorists

:55:44.:55:47.

were responsible for 90% of all deaths in the troubles and any

:55:48.:55:51.

investigative processes half to reflect that.

:55:52.:56:01.

I will give way. Would my right honourable friend, who is the most

:56:02.:56:05.

tolerant about taking interventions, except that if 10% of the people

:56:06.:56:10.

killed were killed by security forces, bearing in mind that all the

:56:11.:56:16.

other 90% of killings were murderers, even if one in 20, even

:56:17.:56:23.

if as many as one in ten of the killings by security forces were

:56:24.:56:26.

murder, which is exceptionally unlikely, a proportionate rating

:56:27.:56:33.

would be won in 100, not one in ten. That is absolutely why the Stormont

:56:34.:56:37.

House Agreement had at its heart those messages that have already

:56:38.:56:43.

delivered of fairness, balance, of proportionality. And its caseload

:56:44.:56:48.

will contain some of the most not warriors atrocities resulting in the

:56:49.:56:53.

deaths of our Armed Forces. Such is at one point in 1979 by Cawley in

:56:54.:57:01.

1998. They will look at cases in chronological order meaning that all

:57:02.:57:07.

cases will be investigated, so there will be no prioritising. Any

:57:08.:57:13.

investigation would include specific tests that must be met in order that

:57:14.:57:20.

a previously completed case is reopened for investigation. This

:57:21.:57:24.

will mean specifically that the new and credible evidence that was not

:57:25.:57:31.

previously available to the authorities is needed before the age

:57:32.:57:34.

site you will reopen any closed case. We're also looking at ways of

:57:35.:57:40.

ensuring that where prosecutors do take place, terrorists are not

:57:41.:57:43.

treated more favourably than former soldiers and police officers put up

:57:44.:57:47.

the body these will be time limited to five years to ensure that this

:57:48.:57:51.

process will not be open-ended, helping Northern Ireland to move

:57:52.:57:56.

forward. Turning to the Stormont House Agreement into detailed

:57:57.:57:59.

legislation has been and continues to be a long and necessarily complex

:58:00.:58:04.

process but a great deal of progress has been made in building the

:58:05.:58:08.

consensus necessary to bring legislation before this house. And I

:58:09.:58:13.

believe that with hard work on all sides the outstanding areas of

:58:14.:58:15.

disagreement are entirely Bridger bowl. In September I sit at my

:58:16.:58:22.

intention to move the process to a more public bays. I had hoped that

:58:23.:58:27.

this would have taken place by now but a continuing lack of consensus

:58:28.:58:30.

and the political situation at Stormont have delayed this from

:58:31.:58:36.

happening. But I remain committed to giving the public a say in these

:58:37.:58:40.

proposed bodies and loading confidence in them from across the

:58:41.:58:45.

community. So I want to take that forward as soon as possible after

:58:46.:58:48.

the Northern Ireland assembly election a week ago, so that we can

:58:49.:58:51.

make progress quickly. But any approach to the past must be there,

:58:52.:58:55.

balanced and proportionate. It must have victims and survivors at its

:58:56.:59:00.

heart and it must be consistent with our obligations to those who served

:59:01.:59:06.

and into many cases, sacrificed so much to bring about the relative

:59:07.:59:09.

peace and stability that Northern Ireland enjoys today.

:59:10.:59:21.

May I congratulate the Secretary of State for an absolute the impression

:59:22.:59:24.

presentation and I think you spoke for all of us in this house and

:59:25.:59:29.

outside in his words. His words were right, powerful and important and

:59:30.:59:35.

they were proportionate. I also say that today we may be speaking of the

:59:36.:59:39.

past but the issues that we're discussing other not gone away the

:59:40.:59:46.

past may be... Those things may have happened but there are still

:59:47.:59:48.

problems today and the incidence referred to earlier one today

:59:49.:59:56.

yesterday with a bomb exploding shows us, reminds us that what we do

:59:57.:59:59.

today has a relevance. We're not just looking backwards, we're

:00:00.:00:03.

looking at the current situation and we have to look forward to the

:00:04.:00:06.

limitation of Stormont House to ensure that there are no more

:00:07.:00:10.

incidences like this and that terrifying litany of horror that the

:00:11.:00:13.

right honourable gentleman rightly enunciated and placed on record. We

:00:14.:00:19.

must never begin to approach that scale of terror and horror again.

:00:20.:00:27.

All of us are united, surely, in about. Yesterday it was said that

:00:28.:00:31.

the police officer had a very lucky escape will do better is the reality

:00:32.:00:36.

of it. This date, today, those people who have worn the uniform of

:00:37.:00:42.

the lines on the -- who put their lives on the line... We actually

:00:43.:00:52.

welcome the DUP motion. The wording is very sensible. How could we argue

:00:53.:00:58.

with the fact that all processes for investigating and prosecuting legacy

:00:59.:01:01.

cases are balanced and fair? We would not oppose that. We support

:01:02.:01:05.

that. We think it is absolutely right about pink Barbie from me to

:01:06.:01:09.

criticise the wording of the DUP motion but I think that when the

:01:10.:01:13.

Secretary of State added the word abortion as well that was

:01:14.:01:17.

significant. It is also important that we raise these matters on the

:01:18.:01:22.

floor of the house. There is still a tendency in some parts to think that

:01:23.:01:25.

what happens in Northern Ireland happens in the wings rather than on

:01:26.:01:28.

the centrestage. There are still some people who think that Northern

:01:29.:01:33.

Ireland is settled. It is over, it is finished. And it is a small part

:01:34.:01:38.

of the United Kingdom and a long way geographically, politically, from us

:01:39.:01:41.

here in Westminster. I pay credit to all members, all members to bring

:01:42.:01:46.

Northern Ireland should business to the floor of the house was it must

:01:47.:01:50.

be done. We have an absolute duty to consider these matters at every

:01:51.:01:54.

opportunity and on many occasions I've heard speeches on the subject

:01:55.:01:58.

in this house which would stand the test of any of the great

:01:59.:02:01.

parliamentary speeches and we've ever heard. It is that portable stop

:02:02.:02:06.

it is crucial issue. Today is an odd day in that the eyes of the

:02:07.:02:09.

political establishment may be on other places would have. I think it

:02:10.:02:21.

is it is almost irresistible to draw the house's attention to the extreme

:02:22.:02:25.

irony of today's times of London newspaper which describes the

:02:26.:02:30.

renewables heat incentive as wasting ?450 million in GB. A year, as its

:02:31.:02:45.

rugby set by the honourable member. The temptation is there and it

:02:46.:02:53.

cannot be denied that he was the person who came up with this idea

:02:54.:02:58.

and I have to say that those of us here have around Scherer of

:02:59.:03:00.

responsibility for not making more of an issue of it at the time. And

:03:01.:03:07.

the almost... We begin to understand why this was so attractive and

:03:08.:03:10.

Stormont at the particular time. I see from today's paper that Mr Hume

:03:11.:03:16.

is the European chairman of US supplier of wood pellets I leave

:03:17.:03:21.

those words hiding in the air, slowly smouldering in the Drax power

:03:22.:03:28.

station is tonnes and tonnes of Canadian forests are shipped up,

:03:29.:03:32.

pelleted and brought over here. But we must move on. For only one I

:03:33.:03:40.

happily give way. The revolution in today's Times,

:03:41.:03:46.

outlandish as it might seem, hasn't led to a crisis of Government here,

:03:47.:03:52.

hasn't led to in-depth investigation teams by the BBC to try and

:03:53.:03:56.

establish guilt before any investigation has taken place. And

:03:57.:04:00.

for whatever reason there seems to be double standards with some

:04:01.:04:03.

broadcasters when dealing with waste of public money.

:04:04.:04:10.

How tempting it would be to follow the honourable gentleman down that

:04:11.:04:14.

Primrose Path that he is leading the innocent parliamentarian, but I fear

:04:15.:04:19.

I have known him longer than 30 and I were in the house and I am able on

:04:20.:04:24.

this occasion to resist his blandishments. Which I will do so.

:04:25.:04:30.

However, I will also, on the subject of resistance I will give way.

:04:31.:04:37.

When the same is Hume Tech came to Northern Ireland 120 words were

:04:38.:04:41.

taken out of it which was the cap and that was the reason we've now

:04:42.:04:48.

got Stormont. May I crave the house's indulgence

:04:49.:04:52.

and apologise for actually diverging us from what is an extremely

:04:53.:04:57.

important issue? As we are talking about issues of Northern Ireland and

:04:58.:05:01.

March the 2nd is crucial and quite clearly there is a causal linkage

:05:02.:05:05.

there, I think it is quite reasonable to mention it. It is

:05:06.:05:10.

equally reasonable to move on from that. Can I just say, as I was

:05:11.:05:19.

saying earlier, we are not opposing the motion. Can we try to get some

:05:20.:05:23.

facts right? There was an enormous amount of statistical evidence that

:05:24.:05:26.

has been thrown about. We heard yesterday the Prime Minister at the

:05:27.:05:30.

dispatch box making comments about the various percentages and

:05:31.:05:34.

proportion numbers. The PSNI as of this money said that they are

:05:35.:05:39.

investigating 1118 cases that are being currently investigated of

:05:40.:05:46.

which 530 are attributed to republican paramilitaries, 271 to

:05:47.:05:51.

loyalist paramilitaries, 354 to security forces and 33 unknown.

:05:52.:05:58.

That the percentage of 32%. In many ways that is not the issue. It's not

:05:59.:06:08.

just the fact there are 55 detectives working today, in four

:06:09.:06:13.

teams, on this very issue, but it's also the fact that once we start to

:06:14.:06:18.

break these things down and say this site with more responsible than

:06:19.:06:22.

that, we can make those points and as politicians we have a duty to do

:06:23.:06:27.

so, but the past has to be looked at objectively and in terms of utter

:06:28.:06:31.

clarity. We had to investigate every aspect. We heard the honourable

:06:32.:06:35.

gentleman saying there may be a tiny percentage, that's his analysis, of

:06:36.:06:40.

murders committed by people wearing uniform. Horrifying though that

:06:41.:06:44.

sounds. Even if there were, with the higher duty that people who wear the

:06:45.:06:49.

Queen's uniform have, each one of those must be investigated. That's

:06:50.:06:54.

the key thing. Everybody, everything must be investigated. There can be

:06:55.:06:58.

no concealed areas or untouched dark corners, we have to look into every

:06:59.:07:06.

single part of the last 30 years. The Shadow minister will accept that

:07:07.:07:12.

one of the only places in Northern Ireland of a miscarriage of justice

:07:13.:07:16.

that resulted in people who have been charged with murder being

:07:17.:07:21.

released and exonerated were three former Ulster Defence Regiment

:07:22.:07:27.

soldiers known as the Armagh four case, and that alone removed from

:07:28.:07:31.

the books about 25% of the allegations against the Ulster

:07:32.:07:36.

Defence Regiment and that shoot -- that too should be reflected. I bow

:07:37.:07:42.

to the honourable gentleman, he knows far more about this subject

:07:43.:07:46.

than I, and he lived through it in a way that I can never claim to have

:07:47.:07:49.

that approximate relationship with. That's not necessarily the issue.

:07:50.:07:55.

It's not about whether a group of people were removed from a

:07:56.:07:57.

particular list, a particular statistical and non-Malay, what we

:07:58.:08:02.

are talking about a is firstly a fair and proportionate investigation

:08:03.:08:06.

into every aspect of the Troubles, secondly, how best to progress

:08:07.:08:10.

matters to take us forward to bring the Stormont House agreement

:08:11.:08:14.

forward, and thirdly and most important, to build on the peace

:08:15.:08:18.

process that has as its central component of that coming to terms,

:08:19.:08:25.

one second, it's not me that's popular, it's the words that the

:08:26.:08:28.

honourable members have to say that are needed to be heard by the House,

:08:29.:08:32.

but can we please try to concentrate on that issue, which is why on this

:08:33.:08:36.

side of the House we endorse and support the words that have been

:08:37.:08:41.

made in the DUP motion. I believe the honourable gentleman for

:08:42.:08:45.

Aldershot was on his feet first. I'm grateful to him for giving way.

:08:46.:08:48.

There needs to be Fenners, but will he understand there's a widespread

:08:49.:08:55.

and growing feeling across the house that these investigations in

:08:56.:08:58.

Northern Ireland are not being fair, that they are disproportionate, and

:08:59.:09:02.

whilst Mike right honourable friend the Secretary of State said we have

:09:03.:09:05.

a free press in this country the fact is that the law firm of

:09:06.:09:10.

Campbell and care are sending out letters to newspapers in this

:09:11.:09:15.

country is saying that if they report any criticism which they

:09:16.:09:19.

perceive to be critical of the impartiality of the authorities in

:09:20.:09:21.

Northern Ireland, legal proceedings will pursue. Therefore that which I

:09:22.:09:29.

am saying in this House is not being reported newspapers in my

:09:30.:09:33.

constituency, because of fear of prosecution from Northern Ireland.

:09:34.:09:38.

Therefore will he agree that if fairness is to be seen to be being

:09:39.:09:42.

carried out in Northern Ireland, then they've got to tolerate

:09:43.:09:46.

criticism of the way they are conducting these investigations. The

:09:47.:09:50.

honourable gentleman has ventilated those points and made them again and

:09:51.:09:54.

his voice will be heard. We are not here to kick the legal profession,

:09:55.:09:58.

although that's all so tempting. Why are here hopefully to move on from

:09:59.:10:02.

that. I think the issue with that particular individual who has been

:10:03.:10:07.

named, that was then. What we're talking about today is something far

:10:08.:10:10.

more important. It's going forward. I give way. I thank him for giving

:10:11.:10:16.

way and would he agree with me that the most pressing issue in all of

:10:17.:10:22.

this debate is the need for not only temperate language but on the far

:10:23.:10:26.

side of the selection that not only do we have political institutions up

:10:27.:10:31.

and running but that there are parallel negotiations that bring a

:10:32.:10:33.

conclusion to all of this, because the one thing that victims wanted

:10:34.:10:39.

closure, because there's too many people in pain in Northern Ireland

:10:40.:10:44.

and young people want to move on and they want to move on in terms of

:10:45.:10:51.

dealing with health, education and the economy, because those are the

:10:52.:10:55.

pressing issues that are facing is day and daily. Not for the first

:10:56.:11:01.

time the honourable lady from South Downs speaks an enormous amount of

:11:02.:11:05.

words that should be our watchword words that should be our watchword

:11:06.:11:09.

for the rest of this debate today. We have to move forward. The point I

:11:10.:11:14.

would make is that there cannot be to the future without a complete

:11:15.:11:18.

settlement of the issues of the past. There has to be the closure.

:11:19.:11:23.

There has to be the investigation. There has to be the disinfectant of

:11:24.:11:28.

sunlight, to quote a phrase. We have to move on sure and certain in the

:11:29.:11:32.

knowledge we've done everything to investigate the past. There is so

:11:33.:11:35.

many people who I want to hear from and I know that everybody here wants

:11:36.:11:41.

to, can I just say in closing that Erik Persson -- absolutely on this

:11:42.:11:45.

side of the House we do have great respect in those who serve and have

:11:46.:11:49.

served in our Armed Forces and who take pride in the work that they

:11:50.:11:52.

have done. On those very, very few occasions when there may be the

:11:53.:11:58.

possibility of action outside the law, those claims must be

:11:59.:12:02.

investigated fully. It's crucial to say that those people who wear a

:12:03.:12:06.

uniform would want that that to be investigated. They would want the

:12:07.:12:10.

case. Nobody would want to CNN exemption for members of the Armed

:12:11.:12:14.

Forces. Having said that, a great deal of sense has been spoken today.

:12:15.:12:18.

There will be more, no doubt. Can we please try to see that to get

:12:19.:12:22.

through March the 2nd, I very much hope the new Assembly will be up and

:12:23.:12:26.

running and Stormont House can come forward and I hope in future we'll

:12:27.:12:30.

be having debates about the great and glorious future of Northern

:12:31.:12:34.

Ireland, which we'll be talking to a prosperous, comfortable, rich

:12:35.:12:39.

economy of people couldn't who have pride in that extraordinary part of

:12:40.:12:42.

the world and not looking backwards and forwards to a real glorious

:12:43.:12:47.

future. Everything a person in Northern Ireland, not only deserves

:12:48.:12:50.

that right to peace and prosperity, but they have earned that right, and

:12:51.:12:55.

I hope this House will give them a fair following wind and their

:12:56.:13:01.

support. I thank you. Madame Deputy Speaker I'd like to congratulate the

:13:02.:13:05.

DUP on this motion and also particularly the right honourable

:13:06.:13:09.

member for Lagan Valley for what was a very impressive speech and opening

:13:10.:13:14.

of the motion. I'd like to thank the Secretary of State for what he said

:13:15.:13:18.

and as always it's a pleasure to follow the honourable manner for

:13:19.:13:21.

Ealing North. I think his emphasis on the peace process and the future

:13:22.:13:27.

was very welcome. Now Madame Deputy Speaker, the right honourable member

:13:28.:13:29.

for Lagan Valley mentioned the figures involved, so I won't repeat

:13:30.:13:35.

them. But he also made the point I think that there can be no legal or

:13:36.:13:39.

moral equivalence between what the terrorists did and what happened to

:13:40.:13:44.

the military, who were deployed in support of the police, acted under

:13:45.:13:50.

the rule of law and were subject to very tight military controls and

:13:51.:13:55.

codes, including the yellow book. They were mainly young men and some

:13:56.:14:00.

women who never asked to go to Northern Ireland, but were deployed

:14:01.:14:04.

there, and showed incredible professionalism, huge restraint at

:14:05.:14:08.

times when they were under great stress and provocation, but at all

:14:09.:14:13.

times they held their nerve and the reputation of the British military

:14:14.:14:15.

as a consequence was enhanced around the world. Every single incident

:14:16.:14:23.

involving killing or injuring by the military was fully investigated at

:14:24.:14:28.

the time. There were regimental investigations, there were

:14:29.:14:31.

investigations by the military police. In virtually every case

:14:32.:14:34.

there were investigations by the RUC and by the civilian authorities. I

:14:35.:14:39.

would say that I don't think any other countries' Armed Forces in the

:14:40.:14:46.

world would have shown the restraint and professionalism that our Armed

:14:47.:14:50.

Forces showed, and when mistakes were made they were called to order.

:14:51.:14:56.

Indeed, in the case of the killing of the two civil rights campaigners

:14:57.:15:00.

Michael Lumb and Andrew Murray, three sergeants and one officer from

:15:01.:15:05.

Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders were charged in the case of two of

:15:06.:15:09.

the sergeants with murder and were sentenced to life imprisonment,

:15:10.:15:12.

that's Sergeant John Bernard Sergeant Stanley Hathaway, said

:15:13.:15:19.

Sergeant, chestnut, was charged with manslaughter and sentenced to four

:15:20.:15:22.

years and the officer in charge of the platoon, who wasn't actually

:15:23.:15:27.

present at the farmhouse of the killings, covered up what happened

:15:28.:15:31.

and was subsequently charged and given a suspended sentence and

:15:32.:15:35.

resigned his commission, Captain Andrew Snowball, and it was a case

:15:36.:15:39.

which I think showed that whether military stepped of line, they were

:15:40.:15:43.

investigated and if charges were appropriate those charges were

:15:44.:15:47.

brought. I give way. I thank my honourable friend for making this

:15:48.:15:50.

point. It's absolutely essential that the record of this House

:15:51.:15:56.

carries on the fact the Royal of the -- the Royal Ulster Constabulary,

:15:57.:16:00.

under services to Her Majesty's forces in Northern Ireland, when

:16:01.:16:03.

they were acting under operational banner, acted under the highest

:16:04.:16:06.

human rights compliant record in any dispute anywhere in the world. That

:16:07.:16:11.

is without any challenge whatsoever. 30,000 officers carrying personal

:16:12.:16:19.

weapons and the minimal amount of illegal discharge of those weapons,

:16:20.:16:23.

that's a miracle given the provocation going on, with murders

:16:24.:16:29.

daily in our province. I'm going to remove a couple of paragraphs my

:16:30.:16:31.

speech because he said what I was going to say. Can we fast forward to

:16:32.:16:38.

the current situation, because the right on remember for Lagan Valley

:16:39.:16:42.

outlined the thought process and especially the veterans that have

:16:43.:16:46.

now been arrested as part of the DPP's vendetta against some of these

:16:47.:16:52.

veteran soldiers. I want to refer to the case of Dennis Hutchings, which

:16:53.:16:56.

I did refer to in an adjournment debate that I was allowed to present

:16:57.:17:03.

on the 13th of December. In the case of Dennis Hutchings, he was deployed

:17:04.:17:07.

to Northern Ireland with his regiment the lifeguards, and they

:17:08.:17:13.

were in an area, where levels of disturbance were particularly high,

:17:14.:17:16.

in Dungannon and Armagh, and all patrols were told to take special

:17:17.:17:21.

care. The regiment had suffered a number of shooting incidents. One of

:17:22.:17:26.

them actually fatal. On the 4th of June, a patrol was actually ambushed

:17:27.:17:31.

by a group of young men, who were in the process of transferring weapons

:17:32.:17:34.

into a car in the village of aggression. They were found upon --

:17:35.:17:40.

fired upon, words exchanged, a number of people arrested and a

:17:41.:17:44.

quantity of arms were recovered. On the following dates Corporal Dennis

:17:45.:17:47.

Hutchings, who was actually mentioned in dispatches for his

:17:48.:17:53.

brave leadership, led a patrol into the area and their aim was to locate

:17:54.:17:58.

further arms caches near that village. They chanced on John Pat

:17:59.:18:02.

Cunningham, who was challenged to give himself up. He actually behaved

:18:03.:18:07.

in a way that was suspicious. The control believed they were

:18:08.:18:10.

threatened and they opened fire and we know there was a tragic outcome

:18:11.:18:13.

because John Pat Cunningham was killed. Now this was fully

:18:14.:18:20.

investigated by the Lifeguards, by the military police, by the RUC, and

:18:21.:18:25.

by the DPP. All four members were completely exonerated. What then

:18:26.:18:32.

happened I believe completely beggars belief. We go fast forward

:18:33.:18:40.

to 2011. Dennis Hutchings was called in by the PSNI historical enquiries

:18:41.:18:46.

team. He was fully investigated, a very comprehensive investigation

:18:47.:18:50.

took place. He cooperated fully in all of this. He was told at the end

:18:51.:18:55.

of it that no further action could take place and thing he could get on

:18:56.:18:59.

with his life, he could look after his grandchildren, his

:19:00.:19:02.

great-grandchildren, and he could basically enjoy his retirement. Now

:19:03.:19:07.

we afford to 2015, there was a dawn raid on the major's house, he's been

:19:08.:19:13.

in very poor health recently, he was arrested and taken to Northern

:19:14.:19:17.

Ireland for four days' questioning and charged with attempted murder,

:19:18.:19:21.

charges he vehemently denied. After 42 years, there were no witnesses,

:19:22.:19:25.

we have members of the platoon, the other three members in the patrol

:19:26.:19:29.

have died, all the forensic evidence was looked at at the time, that has

:19:30.:19:33.

all disappeared, how can he get a fair trial now? The first thing I

:19:34.:19:36.

learned at law school was that any criminal case depends critically on

:19:37.:19:42.

evidence, on credible evidence, on corroborated evidence, and indeed on

:19:43.:19:46.

someone then getting a fair trial. He cannot get a fair trial in these

:19:47.:19:48.

circumstances. I will give way. Would he agree with the dimmer is

:19:49.:20:02.

great concern and we are told that there are new ways of looking at

:20:03.:20:06.

evidence, so rather than new evidence, people are trying to find

:20:07.:20:10.

just new ways of trying to research it. Does he not think that is wrong?

:20:11.:20:16.

I agreed because I'm going to come onto that in my final points in a

:20:17.:20:22.

moment but I think this case does illustrate that it was fully

:20:23.:20:25.

investigated at the time, it was looked at by every available

:20:26.:20:28.

authority and organisation and it was closed down at the time. Having

:20:29.:20:37.

to reopen cases now, what it does, it is revisionism. It is trying to

:20:38.:20:40.

rewrite history. Atlanta look at what happened then through the lens

:20:41.:20:47.

of 2017. Where we have a whole new emphasis on human rights and

:20:48.:20:50.

different standards. I find this perverse, wrong and completely

:20:51.:20:57.

unacceptable. I think it compliments entirely the

:20:58.:21:02.

point that was made by the honourable lady. It is absolutely

:21:03.:21:06.

right that we've got to move on but in moving on we've got to allow

:21:07.:21:09.

those who have served to move on and on occasion like this where it is so

:21:10.:21:13.

obvious, that so clear that justice has not only been done but seem to

:21:14.:21:18.

be done multiple times, surely, be moving on can become actively.

:21:19.:21:24.

And if one that actually looks at what happened to the IRA and the

:21:25.:21:27.

Parliament the trees their sole aim was to murder, maim and disrupt

:21:28.:21:33.

communities. They didn't investigate crimes murders. They celebrated

:21:34.:21:39.

killings that they took part in. There were not subject to the Geneva

:21:40.:21:44.

Convention or any other rule of all the British law on torture. Let's

:21:45.:21:51.

see some examples very quickly. What about the military intelligence

:21:52.:21:53.

liaison officer who was abducted in May 19 77. Tortured, brutally

:21:54.:22:01.

tortured, he was awarded a posthumous George Cross and killed.

:22:02.:22:04.

He's one of nine IRA victims whose body has been recovered. What about

:22:05.:22:11.

the corporals who chanced on an Iranian funeral in March 19 88. They

:22:12.:22:20.

were dragged out of their car. -- IRA funeral. One of the

:22:21.:22:23.

extraordinary pictures was that one of Father Alec Reed issuing the last

:22:24.:22:28.

rites. In the three Scottish brothers who were abducted from a

:22:29.:22:33.

pop in 1971. They were off duty, they were unarmed, they were

:22:34.:22:37.

abducted and tortured and no one has ever been convicted. I will draw my

:22:38.:22:45.

remarks to a conclusion now. I think what we have now got to do. Got bad

:22:46.:22:48.

weather moving forward. The only way of moving it forward is for the

:22:49.:22:59.

Secretary of State, is for ministers to make it absolutely categorically

:23:00.:23:08.

clear that these cases will now be closed subject to the arrival or the

:23:09.:23:12.

discovery of brand-new compelling evidence. I think anything less than

:23:13.:23:18.

this is going to lead to many of those, and a figure was given

:23:19.:23:28.

270,000, veterans. It would be a betrayal of these veterans and it

:23:29.:23:32.

would be an appalling scar on HMG. I think that we have a way forward and

:23:33.:23:43.

I urge ministers to take it. Thank you. Can I put on record right

:23:44.:23:51.

at the start of the SNP's acknowledgement and appreciation of

:23:52.:23:55.

the efforts of our police and Armed Forces personnel wherever they

:23:56.:24:02.

serve. Our safety is a luxury port with their dedication to duty and

:24:03.:24:06.

constant vigilance. I can appreciate that my opinion on this is not

:24:07.:24:10.

always shared by everyone else and that there were people in many

:24:11.:24:14.

places who feel that they have good reason to disagree with their

:24:15.:24:17.

sentiments. But can I also say at this point, it has been mentioned

:24:18.:24:22.

previously be planting of a bomb outside a police officer's house is

:24:23.:24:27.

completely unacceptable. Not only was the officer's life threatened

:24:28.:24:30.

just today but the lives of others were touched by it, too. Given the

:24:31.:24:35.

nature of the area where the opposite lives I expect children

:24:36.:24:39.

play in that street. And it is beyond unforgivable to want a child

:24:40.:24:46.

does not lie. I can't get inside the mind of anyone who wants a return to

:24:47.:24:50.

violence in Northern Ireland and I cannot believe that there will be

:24:51.:24:57.

any great support for them anywhere. Great praise is instead due to the

:24:58.:25:02.

politicians and community activists who have brought Northern Ireland

:25:03.:25:05.

away from those dark shadows and headed towards a better future. Many

:25:06.:25:11.

of them I will not have heard of and some are no longer with us but it

:25:12.:25:15.

must have taken great courage for enemies to lay aside their greatest

:25:16.:25:19.

enmity and begin the corporation that we see now. I have huge respect

:25:20.:25:24.

for those I have met to serve here and those I've met who serve in

:25:25.:25:28.

Stormont and a few I've met to councillors and community leaders,

:25:29.:25:35.

who have the courage, the vision and the belief in the future to be able

:25:36.:25:38.

to say to their opponents, I know what you have to do and where you

:25:39.:25:41.

had to stand to serve your community and I appreciate that you give me

:25:42.:25:44.

the same courtesy. Where can we find common ground? There is a future to

:25:45.:25:48.

be had from the people servants have that attitude. Not that everyone is

:25:49.:25:53.

lovely to each other, I hasten to add, but their leaders enough to

:25:54.:26:00.

know where that fertile future lies. I think there is a certainty that

:26:01.:26:05.

the people and politicians of Northern Ireland can craft a future

:26:06.:26:09.

which will stand in Tasman to the courage shown and the personal risks

:26:10.:26:13.

taken these past couple of decades. In that they not think that the SNP

:26:14.:26:17.

position is clear. We believe that the people of Northern Ireland have

:26:18.:26:21.

the capacity, the intelligence and the gumption to make a better this

:26:22.:26:28.

thing is that than we can. We have confidence in the institutions of

:26:29.:26:31.

the police and judiciary to serve the people and confidence in

:26:32.:26:35.

Stormont to reform them if they are not serving well. We certainly also

:26:36.:26:39.

have confidence in the people of Northern Ireland to reform the pants

:26:40.:26:45.

off any politician who does not have the ability, courage or energy to

:26:46.:26:49.

serve them well. I can get why this motion is before us to day and I

:26:50.:26:55.

certainly appreciate the concerns of soldiers who served in operation

:26:56.:26:57.

Banner and are now retired. There is no form of polite words, trite

:26:58.:27:02.

phrases are empty passages that puts any of this nicely to bed. The

:27:03.:27:07.

resolution to those concerned lies in the institutions in Belfast. The

:27:08.:27:12.

MOD has a duty which I think it has promised to live up to two ensure

:27:13.:27:16.

that any of its current of former employees who face legal action as a

:27:17.:27:21.

result of what they did during the service is adequately represented.

:27:22.:27:23.

Others believe that the minister was able to reassure us that the

:27:24.:27:27.

commitment given by the MOD at the end of last year remains in place

:27:28.:27:32.

and by his assurance that is taxpayer funded legal support will

:27:33.:27:35.

be provided where needed. That is very welcome indeed. She mentioned

:27:36.:27:45.

institutions in Northern Ireland. Would she accept that had it not

:27:46.:27:49.

been for the bravery and sacrifice of British troops through the whole

:27:50.:27:54.

of that period who helped in effect to hold the reins of that one day a

:27:55.:27:59.

peaceful solution could be arrived at, those institutions would not

:28:00.:28:07.

actually be available to us today? I did place on record right at the

:28:08.:28:11.

subarachnoid mint and precession of the tremendous efforts made by

:28:12.:28:14.

police and Armed Forces personnel wherever they served and certainly

:28:15.:28:20.

their contribution to peace has been a big part of where we are today. I

:28:21.:28:26.

wanted to mention that the investigation of incidences is a

:28:27.:28:32.

matter for serviceable and four Courts martial and have no

:28:33.:28:34.

particular knowledge of those systems but the duty to ensure

:28:35.:28:39.

fairness and impartiality lies in the MOD. I welcome the Secretary of

:28:40.:28:44.

State's comments regarding legal requirements very much. Prof Ernest,

:28:45.:28:50.

balance and proportionality. The duty to ensure fairness will lie

:28:51.:28:56.

with the new Stormont ministers and with the Attorney General and judges

:28:57.:29:00.

who sit in the courts over there. We must trust them to take due

:29:01.:29:04.

cognizance of all the circumstances that they find themselves in and of

:29:05.:29:08.

the evidence that is presented to them and we must trust them to take

:29:09.:29:11.

decisions on the best interests of the people that they serve. If we do

:29:12.:29:17.

not trust them we will be denying the legacy of all those who worked

:29:18.:29:23.

and to Labour at to craft a better future for Northern Ireland and to

:29:24.:29:28.

drag the communities that are away from the violence that has plagued

:29:29.:29:42.

them. I congratulate the DUP and in particular the honourable member for

:29:43.:29:47.

Lang Burley for bringing this motion before us. And for his very eloquent

:29:48.:29:55.

words but also for his gallant servers along with several of his

:29:56.:30:00.

parliamentary colleagues in what was by far the most dangerous regiments

:30:01.:30:06.

serving in the British Army as a part-time member of the UDR. I am

:30:07.:30:13.

deeply conscious of time with many members wishing to get inside will

:30:14.:30:18.

be very brief. My honourable friend the member for North West Norfolk

:30:19.:30:25.

has made such a case for very much point I would like to make judges

:30:26.:30:29.

want to briefly echo two or three of his points before coming on to the

:30:30.:30:35.

other side emotion. Corporal Major Denis Hutchens when he served in the

:30:36.:30:39.

lifeguards by chance was in the same squadron as a very close friend of

:30:40.:30:44.

mine. Who was an officer at command of the other troops. Ready says he

:30:45.:30:50.

was one of the best senior NCOs she ever served with. She is absolutely

:30:51.:30:56.

astounded at the way this man is being treated. I have a constituent

:30:57.:31:03.

who has written to me in the last fortnight who is being investigated

:31:04.:31:08.

now for events in 1976. That is 41 years ago. I listen for luck athlete

:31:09.:31:16.

what my right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary said and

:31:17.:31:22.

I have a huge respect for him. I asked him to understand that there

:31:23.:31:27.

is nobody on this side of the house doesn't believe in the rule of law

:31:28.:31:32.

but integral to the rule of law is confidence in the criminal justice

:31:33.:31:37.

system. The problem was trying to British soldiers in the same way we

:31:38.:31:41.

pursue former terrorists is there is no prospect of, after all these

:31:42.:31:51.

years, are finding new evidence in most cases. He witnesses of diet,

:31:52.:31:56.

and the point about parity is not just that it is morally repugnant to

:31:57.:32:03.

compare killings by the security forces to killings by terrorist

:32:04.:32:06.

organisations unless there is real evidence that it is criminal, but it

:32:07.:32:10.

is also the practical fact that several colleagues have already

:32:11.:32:15.

made, that the other organisations we were up against, the

:32:16.:32:19.

paramilitaries on both sides, did not keep records. There was not the

:32:20.:32:22.

same scope for pursuing them. I firmly believe and my honourable

:32:23.:32:27.

friend has made the case so strongly about not waste time back repeating

:32:28.:32:31.

it, that the only way of resolving this is by putting in a clear

:32:32.:32:37.

transparent mechanism to ensure that no case can be pursued to charging

:32:38.:32:42.

with out to clear evidence that new evidence has been uncovered. Unless

:32:43.:32:46.

has been new evidence uncovered it should not be possible after all

:32:47.:32:51.

these years to bring fresh cases forward.

:32:52.:33:05.

Thank you. I am increasingly worried because 38 years ago I gave my words

:33:06.:33:13.

to two men under my command after they'd been involved in a fit tally

:33:14.:33:19.

to shooting that if they went to court, and were charged with

:33:20.:33:22.

manslaughter and they were proved not guilty they would never hear

:33:23.:33:29.

anything again. I gave my word and it looks like my word may not be

:33:30.:33:39.

worth a thick if this continues. I am grateful but I think a lot of

:33:40.:33:47.

us on the side of the house share The View that fresh evidence, a

:33:48.:33:51.

transparent procedure for showing that fresh evidence should be a

:33:52.:33:58.

requirement for these cases going forward. Want to move on to the

:33:59.:34:02.

other side of the motion which is before us. And that for a moment at

:34:03.:34:10.

some of those other operations. All the difference between Northern

:34:11.:34:15.

Ireland and the situation with the other three operations mentioned is

:34:16.:34:19.

that in Northern Ireland we were there an aide to the civil power. In

:34:20.:34:29.

the case of really a ruck, Kosovo and Afghanistan, there arose very

:34:30.:34:32.

little civil power. But some buyers there was none at all. -- Iraq. I

:34:33.:34:44.

was just not much yes. At some point there was no civil power at all. My

:34:45.:34:49.

right honourable friend, the Northern Ireland Secretary, said in

:34:50.:34:57.

the context after he just mentioned the importance of upholding the law.

:34:58.:35:01.

We have to be clear what it is we mean by the law. When we're dealing

:35:02.:35:07.

with these other operations. The fact is that when you have just

:35:08.:35:11.

captured a city as we had in Basra there was no civil law. In conflicts

:35:12.:35:20.

throughout the 20th-century it was always accepted that there is only

:35:21.:35:24.

one law that matters on the battlefield which is humanitarian

:35:25.:35:29.

law grounded in the Geneva Convention.

:35:30.:35:35.

In the last 15 or 20 years, there's been a creeping process whereby a

:35:36.:35:42.

second form of law, human rights law, has started to be introduced

:35:43.:35:45.

into the picture. When I served on the Defence Select Committee a

:35:46.:35:49.

number of organisations, including the International Red Cross,

:35:50.:35:54.

deprecated this. They made it clear that humanitarian law, which is

:35:55.:35:56.

tried and tested for protecting the interests of the vulnerable, should

:35:57.:36:01.

be the law that applies. Now, when we are looking at a body like IHAT,

:36:02.:36:07.

I would ask the House to think about two things. One of them is why did

:36:08.:36:17.

no other country, all countries in the West, claim to uphold the rule

:36:18.:36:22.

of law, choose to set up the body like IHAT? The second question I'd

:36:23.:36:28.

ask the House to think about is what exactly did we expect our soldiers

:36:29.:36:35.

to do in the very dangerous circumstances to which a number of

:36:36.:36:39.

the cases which are likely to survive the IHAT process and go

:36:40.:36:42.

forward apply, in those months after we captured Basra, when there was no

:36:43.:36:47.

police force effectively, there was no rule of law, we have large

:36:48.:36:51.

numbers of dangerous people around dealing with rioting, was looting

:36:52.:36:58.

and so on. Some colleagues may have read the recent account of how the

:36:59.:37:02.

Americans dealt with one particular looting problem, they shot two or

:37:03.:37:06.

three of the looters and a potential riot was suppressed. There was never

:37:07.:37:09.

any question of follow-up for that. Because we have to realise that in

:37:10.:37:13.

those sorts of circumstances, while you can have humanitarian law in the

:37:14.:37:20.

background, while you can have rules of engagement and so on, if you are

:37:21.:37:26.

young officer with a very small number of soldiers in a dangerous

:37:27.:37:29.

situation, seeing vulnerable people threatened, you may have make

:37:30.:37:34.

split-second decisions which in a court of law, in the UK context,

:37:35.:37:39.

anywhere within the United Kingdom, would not stand up. Trying to

:37:40.:37:43.

retrospectively establish those sorts of rules with human rights law

:37:44.:37:49.

being substituted somehow or other into the picture for the old very

:37:50.:37:53.

clear and very simple principles of humanitarian law, is exposed members

:37:54.:37:58.

of our Armed Forces in a way which many of us find an acceptable. -- an

:37:59.:38:08.

acceptable. I would just like to end with two points on that. The first

:38:09.:38:15.

is that while I was delighted at the way my right honourable friend

:38:16.:38:21.

stressed the importance of Mr Shiner being struck off as a lawyer, it

:38:22.:38:27.

does seem to me extraordinary that there has been no criminal

:38:28.:38:35.

prosecution. When we look at what the SRA, who I hitherto have always

:38:36.:38:40.

regarded as the most toothless of all professional bodies from my own

:38:41.:38:44.

constituencies' casework, when we look at what the SRA have found

:38:45.:38:49.

against him and we realise what that implies for our Armed Forces, I

:38:50.:38:52.

think it's extraordinary that he hasn't been charged and I very much

:38:53.:38:59.

hope he will be. The last point I'd like to make is about our Armed

:39:00.:39:03.

Forces in the operations they are involved in today. The government

:39:04.:39:08.

made a pledge that if we were involved in further combat

:39:09.:39:15.

operations, we would indeed stand back from the derogate from the

:39:16.:39:19.

Human Rights Act. But we are now engaged in two operations. We are

:39:20.:39:26.

increasing the number of soldiers in Afghanistan, which has turned back

:39:27.:39:30.

from a purely support mission, back towards an increasingly combat one,

:39:31.:39:35.

and at the same time we are very heavily involved in the bitter

:39:36.:39:43.

fighting in Iraq and we have air men regularly bombing areas. We have the

:39:44.:39:49.

most accurate bombs, we have the most fail-safe systems, you are

:39:50.:39:52.

safer as a civilian sheltering an area being bombed by the REF than

:39:53.:39:56.

any other force, but nevertheless potentially threatening civilians in

:39:57.:40:03.

the attack for most salt and so on. We have members of special forces,

:40:04.:40:07.

we don't talk about in this chamber, but some of whom are involved in

:40:08.:40:12.

ways as well. What protection is in place? Why haven't we derogated from

:40:13.:40:17.

the Human Rights Act for these two theatres? Madame Dudley speaker I

:40:18.:40:24.

want others to have the opportunity to speak, but I just end by saying I

:40:25.:40:28.

wholly support my honourable friend and the members opposite in calling

:40:29.:40:35.

for an end to the pursuit of veterans unless serious new evidence

:40:36.:40:38.

emerges in Northern Ireland, and I believe we owe more to the troops

:40:39.:40:41.

engaged in operations elsewhere today. We've got six people who want

:40:42.:40:54.

to get in... Deputy Speaker, I'm very pleased as always who to follow

:40:55.:40:58.

the honourable gentleman the member for Canterbury and thank him for all

:40:59.:41:01.

he has done in the service of his country, both here and in

:41:02.:41:08.

operations. Can I also pay tribute to everyone who has spoken thus far

:41:09.:41:13.

and I want to say that the right honourable member the member for

:41:14.:41:15.

Lagan Valley set out a very powerful way the case I think that is

:41:16.:41:21.

reflected by in the country at large and in terms of the approach to

:41:22.:41:25.

these issues. I want to thank the shadow junior minister for his

:41:26.:41:30.

words, but in particular I want to pay tribute to the government for

:41:31.:41:34.

having not just a junior minister here and representatives from the

:41:35.:41:38.

Ministry of Defence, but the Secretary of State also has

:41:39.:41:41.

participated in this debate. I think that's appreciated by the members of

:41:42.:41:45.

the Democratic youth and Unionist party on these benches. I will give

:41:46.:41:52.

way. Can I, as I should have done earlier, apologised for the absence

:41:53.:41:55.

of my colleagues the honourable member for Blaydon. He's on a train

:41:56.:42:01.

somewhere in the Northwest. May I also of course most importantly pay

:42:02.:42:06.

tribute to the members of our security forces, those who have

:42:07.:42:10.

served and those who continue to serve, and I, as a member in this

:42:11.:42:14.

house for North Belfast only too well aware of the enormous

:42:15.:42:17.

sacrifices being made over the years in terms of protecting life and limb

:42:18.:42:22.

and property in my constituency in Belfast and across Northern Ireland

:42:23.:42:27.

by the members of the security forces, and the recent example where

:42:28.:42:30.

a police officer was injured and thankfully was not seriously injured

:42:31.:42:36.

in my constituency and also just the other day in County Londonderry,

:42:37.:42:39.

which has been referred to, shows the continuing risks that members of

:42:40.:42:44.

our security forces are at in the service of others or once they

:42:45.:42:49.

deserve our admiration, pride and our grateful thanks. How we deal

:42:50.:42:54.

with legacy issues in Northern Ireland is important for innocent

:42:55.:42:57.

victims and their families, first and foremost, but it is a deeper

:42:58.:43:02.

significance than just that. The way we respond to current feelings on

:43:03.:43:06.

the house asked and these have been highlighted at length thus far in

:43:07.:43:09.

the process, will reflect our commitment to fairness and justice

:43:10.:43:12.

right across the United Kingdom. There is a very real view and

:43:13.:43:18.

perception, those who defended our communities from attack are being

:43:19.:43:21.

investigated disproportionately and with greater zeal than those who

:43:22.:43:26.

brought terror to our land and the facts bear that out. It isn't just a

:43:27.:43:31.

perception. But I think it's been amply demonstrated in the

:43:32.:43:34.

contribution made thus far that there is substance to that

:43:35.:43:39.

perception. Many of our Armed Forces veterans have heard a knock on the

:43:40.:43:43.

door early in the morning, hauled in by police for interrogation about

:43:44.:43:46.

events that took place many years ago. We've heard examples from

:43:47.:43:50.

honourable members opposite of exactly that happening, houses being

:43:51.:43:53.

invaded, searched, reputations tarnished. We on these benches are

:43:54.:43:57.

not prepared to stand back and see those who bravely served the people

:43:58.:44:02.

of Northern Ireland and serves people of this country generally in

:44:03.:44:07.

their darkest hour, hounded and unfairly vilified. We believe

:44:08.:44:11.

investigations into historical cases must be balanced and proportionate.

:44:12.:44:15.

It's wrong that our former members of the security forces are subject

:44:16.:44:19.

to a different set of rules to those who sought to do them and others

:44:20.:44:23.

harm and the right honourable member for Lagan Valley has set out how the

:44:24.:44:28.

provisions of the Belfast Agreement gave special dispensation and

:44:29.:44:34.

special measures for paramilitaries and those who were imprisoned but

:44:35.:44:36.

did nothing for our security forces. That is wrong. Operation Banner, as

:44:37.:44:42.

has been mentioned, was the longest military deployment in British

:44:43.:44:48.

history. Over 250,000 men and women served in the Armed Forces and in

:44:49.:44:51.

the RUC during that time. It's right to emphasise again the 7000 awards

:44:52.:44:57.

for bravery that were made. The over 1100 security service personnel

:44:58.:45:03.

murdered in the course of their duties. Countless more bearing

:45:04.:45:06.

mental and physical scars of those days. And without their dedication

:45:07.:45:11.

to making people safe, as the Secretary of State are so rightly

:45:12.:45:14.

said, without that sacrifice, terrorism would not have been

:45:15.:45:17.

defeated and the roots of peace could not have been sown to provide

:45:18.:45:22.

where we are today. Flawed and difficult as it is, we're in a much,

:45:23.:45:26.

much better place as a result of the work and sacrifice of our security

:45:27.:45:31.

forces. So they defended and we must defend them. Never forgetting that

:45:32.:45:36.

paramilitary terrorists, both Republican and loyalist, were

:45:37.:45:39.

responsible for some 90% of the deaths during the so-called

:45:40.:45:43.

Troubles. So how we address the issue of legacy must reflect what

:45:44.:45:48.

actually happened. No one is saying on these benches that people are

:45:49.:45:52.

above the law. The actions of the security forces must be held to the

:45:53.:45:57.

highest levels of professionalism and of course must be properly

:45:58.:46:02.

investigated. And of course, in saying that, we must also remember

:46:03.:46:06.

the difficult context in which people were operating in security

:46:07.:46:12.

forces and police at the time, in a climate of fear and terror created

:46:13.:46:16.

by terrorists, who went out of their way not only to target innocent

:46:17.:46:19.

civilians, but then to target and murder detectives and others who

:46:20.:46:24.

were involved in trying to investigate crime. And of course,

:46:25.:46:28.

policing practices which across the United Kingdom were far removed from

:46:29.:46:31.

those that are used today. To suggest that somehow misconduct was

:46:32.:46:38.

rife is a deliberate distortion. It's a narrative of the troubles

:46:39.:46:42.

that is not justified by the fact and we in this House must reject

:46:43.:46:47.

such revisionism. Member said there is a danger that the past has been

:46:48.:46:53.

rewritten, that the war has been won, yes, there is a dangerous

:46:54.:46:57.

propaganda war, we must not allow that to happen. We must ensure that

:46:58.:47:03.

the past is not rewritten in the way the terrorists and their

:47:04.:47:05.

sympathisers would like to see it rewritten. I thank my right

:47:06.:47:10.

honourable friend for giving way. On the issue of proportionality, which

:47:11.:47:14.

is discussing at the moment, would he agree with me that significantly

:47:15.:47:20.

less than 1% of all the people going through the years in Northern

:47:21.:47:22.

Ireland who served in the security forces and police -- army and

:47:23.:47:27.

police, were even questioned about possible breaches of the law come

:47:28.:47:32.

when 100% of the terrorists were most definitely guilty of breaches

:47:33.:47:37.

of the law. The member makes a very, very important point and it bears

:47:38.:47:43.

emphasis in this House and further afield, and it's important that

:47:44.:47:48.

these issues are made clear to people who may, as time passes, from

:47:49.:47:52.

the direct reports of what happened in Northern Ireland, begin to think

:47:53.:47:57.

that somehow there was a different story, different narrative, occurred

:47:58.:48:02.

in Northern Ireland. That's why it's absolutely important that the

:48:03.:48:05.

institutions which were being set up under the Stormont House agreement,

:48:06.:48:08.

which the Secretary of State referred to and which my right

:48:09.:48:12.

honourable friend referred to, the historical investigations unit and

:48:13.:48:15.

so on, I'll set up so we can have a balanced, fair and proportionate

:48:16.:48:18.

approach to all of this. So they will highlight the fact we have 3000

:48:19.:48:22.

murders in Northern Ireland remaining unsolved, that we have

:48:23.:48:28.

acts of terrorism carried out by people like Sean Kelly, the Shankill

:48:29.:48:32.

bomber, like Mike Torkalkar her, part of the South Armagh IRA sniper

:48:33.:48:37.

team that murdered once bombardier Stephen Restorick in 1997, one of

:48:38.:48:41.

the last members of the Armed Forces to die. He received a sentence

:48:42.:48:44.

totalling 105 years Andy Ward free just after three -- and he walked

:48:45.:48:50.

free just after three. The right honourable member for Lagan Valley

:48:51.:48:53.

has detailed the efforts that were made by the then Labour government

:48:54.:49:00.

and John Reid and then Peter Mandelson to go to extraordinary

:49:01.:49:06.

lengths to provide concessions to IRA terrorists, with no regard

:49:07.:49:11.

whatsoever to any kind of proportionality, or to do anything

:49:12.:49:15.

for the security forces. The secret deals that were done, for instance,

:49:16.:49:20.

on and on the runs and so on. These are the major debilitating impact on

:49:21.:49:23.

those who face down terrorism in Northern Ireland and our duty now is

:49:24.:49:26.

to convince them that that will not happen again. I share the view of

:49:27.:49:32.

the right honourable gentleman who spoke earlier on our behalf that

:49:33.:49:35.

this government will not repeat the mistakes of that were made in the

:49:36.:49:38.

past and there will be no amnesty and there will be no secret deals

:49:39.:49:43.

which will allow terrorists off the hook. So in conclusion I want to say

:49:44.:49:49.

that it's important that we get the Stormont house agreement

:49:50.:49:53.

institutions up and running as quickly as possible, that we begin

:49:54.:49:57.

to get back some kind of fair and proportionate system in terms of

:49:58.:50:02.

investigation of what macro -- these legacy cases and we... I give way.

:50:03.:50:14.

Is can I congratulate him for bringing this important matter to

:50:15.:50:24.

the house? All those little difficult lessons from what happened

:50:25.:50:29.

and we are to appreciate the effect that has had on the Armed Forces and

:50:30.:50:36.

our own veterans. Surely after what feels all gone through with IHAT on

:50:37.:50:40.

the lessons we must learn the last thing we can sanction is a

:50:41.:50:43.

politically motivated witchhunt in Northern Ireland against our own.

:50:44.:50:47.

I am delighted that the honourable gentleman was able to make that

:50:48.:50:50.

point. It is a very powerful point and I agree with that entirely. The

:50:51.:50:56.

stakes are high. There was a responsibility and those of us who

:50:57.:51:00.

are in this house to make sure that we build a society that values than

:51:01.:51:04.

and elevates justice and treats our veterans properly. One that upholds

:51:05.:51:09.

the proud traditions of our military and other commitment to democracy

:51:10.:51:12.

and we must go forward on that basis.

:51:13.:51:16.

Members have been very good in sticking to a self imposed time

:51:17.:51:24.

limit. If everyone who is about to speak takes seven minutes or less

:51:25.:51:30.

then all colleagues would have a chance of making their voice heard.

:51:31.:51:35.

And I am sure I can rely on Mr David Simpson to do that.

:51:36.:51:43.

It is good to follow the right honourable member from Belfast

:51:44.:51:50.

North. I want a fully acknowledge the service and the sacrifice of our

:51:51.:51:55.

Armed Forces and police throughout the world as they are placed in

:51:56.:52:00.

areas of conflict to protect the lives of innocent people. I remember

:52:01.:52:04.

them often and not only the sacrifice that they make but also

:52:05.:52:08.

their families. From my time in this debate I wish to focus briefly one

:52:09.:52:13.

Northern Ireland, of course Northern Ireland has enjoyed some 20 years of

:52:14.:52:19.

relative peace. It has not been perfect but unfortunately we have

:52:20.:52:29.

seen decades of brutal violence, the murder of 1879 civilians and the

:52:30.:52:37.

murder of 1117 members of the security forces. What we must first

:52:38.:52:46.

and foremost agree is that not everyone in Northern Ireland is a

:52:47.:52:51.

victim. There are those and some who would seek to claim that every

:52:52.:52:56.

single person in the country is a victim. This is an insidious concept

:52:57.:53:01.

for two reasons. Firstly it diminishes the genuine pain and

:53:02.:53:06.

suffering of those who were directly affected by the actions of

:53:07.:53:10.

terrorists during the troubles and it elevates those who engage in the

:53:11.:53:14.

criminal acts to equal. Just those who suffered and caused the

:53:15.:53:22.

suffering in the first place. The British Army was deployed in

:53:23.:53:28.

Northern Ireland as we all know under operation in 69. Their rail

:53:29.:53:33.

will support the then Royal Ulster Constabulary including providing

:53:34.:53:34.

protection to police officers in carrying out normal policing areas

:53:35.:53:44.

and areas of threats. To deter terrorist attacks and support

:53:45.:53:47.

placing against terrorist operations. The scale of the

:53:48.:53:53.

campaign within another province was escalating and at its peak, in the

:53:54.:53:59.

1970s, the British army was deploying around 21,000 soldiers,

:54:00.:54:05.

one of the most memorable and it has mentioned earlier, was to be July

:54:06.:54:10.

the 21st 1972 from the IRA murdered nine people. Injured 130 and they

:54:11.:54:19.

planted and detonated 27 bombs. The magnitude of this campaign still has

:54:20.:54:25.

the longest continuous deployment of the British monetary history of this

:54:26.:54:28.

legacy remains strongly in the hearts and minds of many and not

:54:29.:54:34.

least is those who came to protect us. I've no doubt about the

:54:35.:54:40.

commitment from our security personnel, the rain of terrorism

:54:41.:54:46.

would have succeeded in the death of many more innocent lives. I want to

:54:47.:54:51.

quote a paragraph from the Armed Forces covenant. The first

:54:52.:54:57.

Government is the defence of the realm. Our Armed Forces fulfil that

:54:58.:55:02.

responsibility in behalf of Government, sacrificing some

:55:03.:55:07.

civilian freedoms, facing danger and sometimes thick suffering injury or

:55:08.:55:14.

death as a result of their duty. Let me say again, in this house, that

:55:15.:55:22.

1117 members of our security forces paid the ultimate sacrifice was

:55:23.:55:26.

serving of the Government are serving to protect the innocent

:55:27.:55:30.

lives of the wider community in Northern Ireland during 1969 until

:55:31.:55:35.

2010. This figure does not account for the many thousands of security

:55:36.:55:41.

personnel left badly injured and who are still struggling today as a

:55:42.:55:46.

direct result of terrorism. My point is this. The British Army was

:55:47.:55:52.

deployed to support the role of the police as protectors of the people

:55:53.:55:55.

of Northern Ireland and to uphold the rule of law and order. At times

:55:56.:55:59.

this involved direct contact with the legal group, namely the

:56:00.:56:04.

provisional IRA, who read the main opposition to British deployment.

:56:05.:56:11.

Tough and ultimately life changing decisions were made by our security

:56:12.:56:16.

forces while they serve this country and Her Majesty's Government at I'm

:56:17.:56:20.

sure there are members in this chamber today for not exactly what

:56:21.:56:26.

that level of combat must actually feel like. Our Majesty 's Government

:56:27.:56:33.

invests millions of pounds to deliver specific training in balding

:56:34.:56:36.

high-intensity battles, a significant part of this training

:56:37.:56:41.

equips each officer with the skills of making level and justifiable

:56:42.:56:46.

decisions under severe threats to life and we put our trust in them to

:56:47.:56:50.

do their job and we must continue to trust the judgments they make and

:56:51.:56:55.

the very specific and unique circumstances in Northern Ireland.

:56:56.:56:59.

In conclusion, I want to commend the honourable member for North West

:57:00.:57:03.

Norfolk for his work and commitment to see that whether it be retired or

:57:04.:57:12.

still active service personnel are not unduly questioned over their

:57:13.:57:15.

actions and decisions they took up the height of prolonged and vicious

:57:16.:57:20.

terror campaigns. Terrorist organisations, as it hasn't said a

:57:21.:57:26.

game in this house, accounted for 90% of the lives lost during the

:57:27.:57:30.

troubles in Northern Ireland. Our focus should be in bringing those

:57:31.:57:36.

perpetrators before the courts and not our security force personnel,

:57:37.:57:42.

and deliver justice for the real victims of Northern Ireland.

:57:43.:57:49.

This is an important debate and I'm not going to go over all of the

:57:50.:57:53.

cities of which have been given by previous speakers. Other than to say

:57:54.:58:00.

we in Northern Ireland over great depth of gratitude to those who hold

:58:01.:58:07.

the ring for 40 years in the face of a sustained terrorist campaign. And

:58:08.:58:13.

it is wrong that now because of Republicans attempt to rewrite the

:58:14.:58:17.

history of the troubles that these people should be subject to a

:58:18.:58:23.

witchhunt and should be made the scapegoat for what happened but 40

:58:24.:58:27.

years. And can I just give a warning to the house? If members think that

:58:28.:58:35.

what we've seen to date has been an further after the election which we

:58:36.:58:41.

now have in Northern Ireland, one can be absolutely sure that Sinn

:58:42.:58:48.

Fein are going to ramp up the pressure to make sure that more

:58:49.:58:51.

soldiers and more policemen are dragged into the dock. That the

:58:52.:58:58.

classified documents which the Ministry of Defence of the police

:58:59.:59:03.

have will be a to scrutiny by smart lawyers in the courts, all of it and

:59:04.:59:10.

attempt to rewrite history. Because the selection Northern Ireland is

:59:11.:59:15.

not about a failed scheme as the shadow spokesman has pointed out.

:59:16.:59:21.

This election is all about Sinn Fein thinking that they have an

:59:22.:59:24.

opportunity to have a rerun of the last election, to come out stronger

:59:25.:59:29.

and then to put pressure on a Government which will be dead keen

:59:30.:59:32.

to get them back into Government. The price will be policemen and

:59:33.:59:43.

soldiers sacrificed in the courts and an unfair system. That is why I

:59:44.:59:47.

think the members are right to be concerned about what we are hearing

:59:48.:59:53.

here today. Already the system is unbearable to present their

:59:54.:00:00.

butterball because the cases been dealt with have been

:00:01.:00:04.

disproportionately geared towards those in the security forces. And it

:00:05.:00:13.

has been mentioned here already, why are the legal systems in Northern

:00:14.:00:17.

Ireland and the justice system in Northern Ireland shall taste show

:00:18.:00:21.

locally and indeed trying to silence the press about what they have been

:00:22.:00:30.

doing? If they do not believe that the statements they've made, if they

:00:31.:00:33.

were looked at closely, would be seen to be disproportionate. And

:00:34.:00:39.

from the Attorney General to the Director of Public Prosecutions

:00:40.:00:41.

quite up to the Chief Constable of the PSNI we have had to denials. And

:00:42.:00:50.

yet figures are clear. 30% of the cases being investigated at present

:00:51.:00:57.

our security force cases. Although only 10% of the people killed in

:00:58.:01:01.

Northern Ireland during the troubles were killed by security force action

:01:02.:01:11.

and very well, many of those were murders. A very few cases, as far as

:01:12.:01:18.

the deaths caused by security forces, could even be claimed to

:01:19.:01:23.

have been unlawful or look unlawful. And yet we have 30% of them being

:01:24.:01:30.

investigated. It is not only... Can either the benefit of the house

:01:31.:01:33.

just make it absolutely clear that I was not in anyway implying that the

:01:34.:01:37.

assembly elections on March the 2nd solely the result of the RHI issue.

:01:38.:01:43.

There are indicative of a wider feeling of distrust which in many

:01:44.:01:46.

ways is not being addressed by this debate today.

:01:47.:01:52.

Thank you. The second thing is that this has been an further in its

:01:53.:01:57.

approach. Let us look at the way in which terrorists have been treated.

:01:58.:02:03.

They've been given letters that excuse them from ever having to be

:02:04.:02:08.

in court when Gerry Adams was being questioned about covering up his

:02:09.:02:16.

paedophile brother. She was given the opportunity to nominate what

:02:17.:02:18.

police station he wanted to go to. When he would like to be

:02:19.:02:24.

interviewed. And he attended without his house being raided, without

:02:25.:02:30.

being hauled out of his bed, without being dragged across the water as we

:02:31.:02:43.

found out soldiers here have. It was done at his convenience and yet we

:02:44.:02:46.

find when it comes to soldiers... And I would like to know who

:02:47.:02:51.

actually gave the instructions for early morning raids on pensioners

:02:52.:02:57.

homes. For instead of being questioned on the road town or their

:02:58.:03:01.

police station and police officers from Northern Ireland coming over,

:03:02.:03:04.

they had to be dragged to Northern Ireland. And then restrictive bail

:03:05.:03:08.

conditions been put on them. They are never put on terrorists in

:03:09.:03:12.

Northern Ireland. It is an fair in its approach. Is this a result of a

:03:13.:03:19.

direction by the director of public prosecution? What of the police in

:03:20.:03:25.

Northern Ireland, was that the police in the jurisdiction in which

:03:26.:03:30.

the people lived? I have asked the cheap possible for answers and have

:03:31.:03:34.

not been able to buy them so it is unfair in its approach and it is

:03:35.:03:37.

unfair because of the inadequacy of the imbalance of information. I do

:03:38.:03:42.

not accept the Secretary of State's information that there will be

:03:43.:03:44.

plenty of information about terrorism of us will have all the

:03:45.:03:48.

police files. Many of those police files have disappeared. Many cases

:03:49.:03:52.

were never even investigated. Yet there will be detailed records of

:03:53.:03:58.

what the Army don't and I believe the only way and the only solution

:03:59.:04:03.

to this is to have a statute of limitations where terrorists, says

:04:04.:04:08.

the Good Friday Agreement, have had special conditions attached to them.

:04:09.:04:16.

That the same furnace be attached -- furnace be attached to those who

:04:17.:04:18.

served in the security forces that we do not bind people be dragged

:04:19.:04:23.

before the courts but things that happened 40 years ago, which their

:04:24.:04:26.

little recollection of and indeed which even the state and the records

:04:27.:04:36.

are difficult to turn up. I hope that this issue will not be

:04:37.:04:41.

forgotten. This issue will sustain the pressure on the Government on

:04:42.:04:45.

this issue to ensure fairness for this is served their country so

:04:46.:04:47.

well. I want to acknowledge with deep

:04:48.:04:58.

regret the attempted murder on the police officer in Derry yesterday,

:04:59.:05:02.

in the constituency of my honourable friend the member for Foyle, and

:05:03.:05:05.

apologise for his nonattendance today and that of my honourable

:05:06.:05:09.

friend the member for South Belfast, because they are both in Dublin at

:05:10.:05:12.

the Good Friday Agreement committee, and in fact the select committee

:05:13.:05:17.

exiting the European Union is meeting in Dublin today, with

:05:18.:05:21.

various committees to deal with the issue of Brexit. So in so doing I

:05:22.:05:28.

would say that it is important that I, on behalf of the SDLP, say that

:05:29.:05:33.

we have always renounced violence from wherever it came, because

:05:34.:05:37.

violence was always wrong, during all that period of the Troubles, as

:05:38.:05:43.

it is wrong now. There was never any justification for that level of

:05:44.:05:47.

terrorism, for that level of violence and that level of murder,

:05:48.:05:52.

because all it did was leave pain, destruction and mayhem and brought

:05:53.:05:59.

us so many years backwards. But there was that opportunity, through

:06:00.:06:01.

the Good Friday Agreement, and that is perhaps where I disagree with the

:06:02.:06:06.

colleagues behind me. That period where we come together in terms of

:06:07.:06:12.

respect for political difference, in terms of power-sharing, in terms of

:06:13.:06:15.

working together on the issues that matter to the people, and, I would

:06:16.:06:21.

hope, that on the far side of this election, that there is that

:06:22.:06:24.

opportunity for the restoration of the political institutions and that

:06:25.:06:29.

there's parallel negotiations to deal with these issues that are

:06:30.:06:34.

outstanding, that seemed to drag us down, that seem to give excuses for

:06:35.:06:41.

people both in Sinn Fein and the DUP to not allow the institutions to be

:06:42.:06:45.

fully functional. Because I say to all of them that the people on the

:06:46.:06:50.

doors in the last few weeks say, we want political institutions will

:06:51.:06:54.

stop we want faith in those institutions. We want them working

:06:55.:06:58.

and we want them delivering for us, on whether its health, spiralling

:06:59.:07:05.

waiting lists out of control, education, budgets that could not be

:07:06.:07:08.

agreed for schools on a rolling three-year pattern, are you rolling

:07:09.:07:14.

three-year programme, and investment in our economy, our jobs, our

:07:15.:07:18.

tourism. That's what young people want to see. They want to see hope,

:07:19.:07:23.

they want to see a future, and they want to see a reason for staying and

:07:24.:07:27.

remaining in Northern Ireland. So if I get back to the substance of the

:07:28.:07:33.

debate. The SDLP agrees that the processes in relation to

:07:34.:07:35.

investigations and prosecutions and legacy cases must be balanced and

:07:36.:07:43.

fair, and how we deal with the past in Northern Ireland must be shaped

:07:44.:07:47.

and guided by terms set by victims and survivors, with truth and

:07:48.:07:53.

accountability at the core. And all of the parties in Northern Ireland

:07:54.:07:56.

agreed the amnesty should not be the basis for dealing with the past and

:07:57.:08:02.

that was the subject of the negotiations and then the subsequent

:08:03.:08:08.

Stormont House Agreement. But there are a number of ongoing enquiries in

:08:09.:08:12.

relation to inquests as opposed to the pursuit of possible

:08:13.:08:17.

prosecutions. On prosecutions like inquests do bring closure and

:08:18.:08:20.

justice to families, as in the ongoing case which was referred to

:08:21.:08:26.

by the right honourable member for Lagan al -- Lagan Valley. Those

:08:27.:08:30.

people were my neighbours and my friends and some of them indirectly

:08:31.:08:34.

related to me, and they still awake that justice. The police ombudsman's

:08:35.:08:38.

report has been published, which refers to a significant element of

:08:39.:08:44.

collusion by the then RUC. Those issues need to be addressed and

:08:45.:08:50.

there needs to be closure brought to the families, because truth and

:08:51.:08:52.

accountability are particularly important. But I also think I've the

:08:53.:08:57.

families of Whitecross, the baby brothers, and also Kingsmill, where

:08:58.:09:01.

many men wear killed on that particular night. All of those

:09:02.:09:08.

people deserve justice right across the community. And there were many

:09:09.:09:11.

soldiers and many policemen who were killed and I can think of what

:09:12.:09:20.

happened to the men on the road in 1991 and I remember well that Monday

:09:21.:09:23.

morning seeing the smoke rising out of the ground, when there was a

:09:24.:09:28.

large crater and something like six men dead. And I remember my

:09:29.:09:33.

predecessor going to the scene and what he saw, what he saw would never

:09:34.:09:41.

ever be repeated again, but firmly I believe that no one in this House or

:09:42.:09:47.

outside this House should be above the rule of law and we must remember

:09:48.:09:53.

that. That the rule of law must prevail. And that means the

:09:54.:09:57.

government has to be very careful. I say this to the Secretary of State

:09:58.:10:02.

and to his ministerial colleagues, both in the Cabinet and in the front

:10:03.:10:06.

bench, that we must support the judicial system and we must ensure

:10:07.:10:13.

that is respected, and I know reference has been made by the

:10:14.:10:17.

Shadow Minister to the statistics given by the PSNI, and I have seen

:10:18.:10:24.

those statistics, and in fact I would say this as a cautionary

:10:25.:10:29.

statement here, that the Assistant Chief Constable Marcus Beale ten in

:10:30.:10:32.

the PSNI, who has direct responsibility for this -- Marcus

:10:33.:10:39.

Hamilton. He said on the 2nd of February, a public perception that

:10:40.:10:44.

there a disproportionate focus on military cases, but they form part

:10:45.:10:49.

of what we're doing. I have a full team, those four teams are doing

:10:50.:10:52.

reviews against a list of cases at the minute and none of those are

:10:53.:10:57.

military. Either full team working on the runs and that doesn't relate

:10:58.:11:04.

to the military at all. So I say to the government there is a cautionary

:11:05.:11:08.

word there, we must take everything in terms of proportionality and we

:11:09.:11:11.

must ensure that there is fairness and balance in all of this. And at

:11:12.:11:18.

the end of the day, we must ensure the Secretary of State said it at

:11:19.:11:22.

oral questions, that the campaign, the election campaign, must be

:11:23.:11:26.

conducted in a manner that allows for the speediest return to

:11:27.:11:31.

partnership government and I just question and I say this also to the

:11:32.:11:35.

DUP, that to have this debate during an election period, does that

:11:36.:11:41.

infringe the purdah period? I see other elements, where Sinn Fein

:11:42.:11:44.

ministers have been making announcements. I know is a former

:11:45.:11:48.

minister during an election period that was not possible in previous

:11:49.:11:52.

years. I say those things, I'm quite happy to give way. Madame Deputy

:11:53.:11:57.

Speaker I thank the Honourable Lady for giving way. The timing of this

:11:58.:12:03.

debate was agreed with the government Chief Whip long before

:12:04.:12:06.

there was any sense of an election in Northern Ireland and long before

:12:07.:12:11.

the date for the election was set, and we should not, as members of

:12:12.:12:15.

Parliament, from be impeded from carrying out our duties to represent

:12:16.:12:19.

the people who elected us to come here, because there's an election to

:12:20.:12:22.

a devolved assembly. Any more than the honourable lady's colleagues in

:12:23.:12:26.

Dublin in another jurisdiction taking part in political activity

:12:27.:12:31.

today should be impeded. Could I thank the right from a gentleman his

:12:32.:12:36.

intervention. I take note of what he says. But in conclusion, because I

:12:37.:12:39.

realise there are other people who want to speak here today, that we

:12:40.:12:45.

respect and upholds the inquest system. We make no apologies for

:12:46.:12:50.

that. We defend the system, when government makes any attempt to move

:12:51.:12:54.

against it for their own convenience, and I should say that I

:12:55.:12:57.

felt the Prime Minister was particularly partisan yesterday,

:12:58.:13:01.

particularly in an election period where you need to be even and

:13:02.:13:04.

balanced and fair. So in conclusion I look forward to the far side of

:13:05.:13:11.

the election, when we do have those political institutions up and

:13:12.:13:14.

running and we do have those parallel initiations, and we need no

:13:15.:13:21.

interregnum. Work needs to continue and we need to be seen to do

:13:22.:13:25.

delivering for people with a sound government. It's a pleasure to speak

:13:26.:13:34.

on this issue. As a former by time Ulster Defence Regiment soldier I

:13:35.:13:37.

was also very proud to wear the uniform in days gone by --

:13:38.:13:41.

part-time. I made friendships with those who put their lives on the

:13:42.:13:45.

line for security and freedom. There is an exemplary history of personnel

:13:46.:13:52.

service, to all the Armed Forces, and I speak in my office daily with

:13:53.:13:55.

widows, children and family of those who were murdered during service for

:13:56.:14:00.

Queen and country. This is a debate my honourable friend and colleague

:14:01.:14:02.

for Lagan Valley set the scene so very well, which is not only with

:14:03.:14:09.

those intimately affected with this but ex-service personnel and current

:14:10.:14:13.

service personnel, every man and woman in this chamber and further

:14:14.:14:16.

afield, who have had their right to life protected by people they will

:14:17.:14:19.

never meet but to whom they owe an eternal gritters destitute --

:14:20.:14:23.

gratitude will stop I'm very happy to give way. Mail in behalf of so

:14:24.:14:30.

many other members of the house a huge tribute which is not often

:14:31.:14:38.

said, to the politicians of Northern Ireland, who actually are and have

:14:39.:14:45.

been and is huge threat, just as much threat as members of the Royal

:14:46.:14:48.

Ulster Constabulary or the Armed Forces, and every day they continue

:14:49.:14:54.

to do their duty to look after their constituents, and we pay tribute to

:14:55.:15:00.

you. Thank you, the honourable gentleman is a very salient point to

:15:01.:15:04.

make and we thank him for his gallant service he has given

:15:05.:15:07.

Northern Ireland as well and he, as a soldier, gave a magnificent

:15:08.:15:11.

contribution to the peace process we have in Northern Ireland and we

:15:12.:15:16.

thank you for that in this chamber. I am known, sometimes may not know,

:15:17.:15:20.

to be a fiery person. I believe it's the Scots blood I have in my veins.

:15:21.:15:27.

With great restraint I've viewed the attempts by many in the so-called

:15:28.:15:30.

shared society to rewrite the history of the Troubles vile

:15:31.:15:33.

provenance and they are blackening the name of men and women who have

:15:34.:15:38.

heard nothing other than praise. In this regard Gerry Kelly has shown

:15:39.:15:42.

disregard for James Ferris, who was stabbed and died at his home via

:15:43.:15:49.

land should be roundly condemned. There's nothing romantic about the

:15:50.:15:53.

Maze Prison break-out and the death of a police officer and that it

:15:54.:15:59.

should be a glorified offering shows of valid -- level of disrespect and

:16:00.:16:04.

sensitively, a lack of remorse as appalling and the suggestion that

:16:05.:16:08.

prison officers were shot, stabbed and beaten is acceptable is... The

:16:09.:16:16.

bizarre word of Sinn Fein coming to rewrite facts, failing to astound

:16:17.:16:19.

and wound the good people of the province, where most especially the

:16:20.:16:22.

thousands who have been traumatised by IRA terrorism. I want to remind

:16:23.:16:26.

people in the chamber today of the real story there, that of a man who

:16:27.:16:30.

served Queen and country handlers had his life ripped away by

:16:31.:16:33.

terrorists. Remember me that sacrifice as well. As a classified

:16:34.:16:40.

files were opened, am I the only one, I know not, who, I don't

:16:41.:16:46.

believe this to be the case, who is sick, sore and tired of personal

:16:47.:16:50.

opinion is that turn into a tax upon past serving soldiers and in this

:16:51.:16:55.

case the members of the UDR. I will fend for this referred to it,

:16:56.:17:02.

salting to the extreme. I served in the Ulster Defence Regiment and

:17:03.:17:07.

every one of those part-time UDRs members I was serving with were

:17:08.:17:11.

wonderful people, male and female, who joined to stop terrorism from

:17:12.:17:14.

whatever source it came from. Let me remind you of the facts, the facts

:17:15.:17:22.

are the UDR full-time and part-time soldiers who served, work long hours

:17:23.:17:26.

and a massive threat, checking in with clients, living in the eye of

:17:27.:17:29.

the storm daily along with their entire families, 180 sold -- 187

:17:30.:17:34.

soldiers were killed, the majority of its -- the majority of duty.

:17:35.:17:38.

These are the facts of the case. You can't deny them. I, along with most

:17:39.:17:44.

upstanding moral people have been horrified to learn that 1004 Humber

:17:45.:17:48.

soldiers many in their 60s and 70s were to be investigated fatal

:17:49.:17:54.

incidents. These were men who gave up family life, who witnessed

:17:55.:17:58.

horrors, who were subjected to horrific life changing scenes, they

:17:59.:18:01.

helped dying comrades in their arms, they surged rubble for members of

:18:02.:18:05.

their team and are now having to deal with this whilst wearing the

:18:06.:18:10.

Queens colours, is subject to investigation is now. I understand

:18:11.:18:13.

very well the concept of closure and what the injustice, I want justice

:18:14.:18:17.

for my cousin Kenneth Smith, murdered by the IRA. I want justice

:18:18.:18:23.

for the four UDR men that the honourable member refers to, some of

:18:24.:18:28.

whom I knew personally. And yet there is no multi-million pounds

:18:29.:18:37.

investigation available for that. One life is worth more than another,

:18:38.:18:48.

it's not, never will be. It can never do, and why should it, I

:18:49.:18:53.

called this government to round and take the only thing they can do and

:18:54.:18:58.

make sure our people are given the credit and given the fairness they

:18:59.:19:03.

should have. The investigation of bogus -- bogus claims made to

:19:04.:19:09.

defraud the MoD and destroy the reputation of the Armed Forces, it

:19:10.:19:13.

can never be allowed to happen and the intimidation of soldiers must be

:19:14.:19:17.

assessed and supported. There must be an assurance I believe for these

:19:18.:19:24.

soldiers through this farce of a procedure will never be allowed to

:19:25.:19:27.

happen again. Actions should be swifter than this, credible claims

:19:28.:19:32.

should be distinguished more quickly from the bogus ones and innocent

:19:33.:19:35.

until proven guilty should be the fallback position. With the greatest

:19:36.:19:43.

of respect I want to make, the do investigation by the Defence Select

:19:44.:19:51.

Committee, I congratulate all of those involved in the scrutiny.

:19:52.:19:54.

Because of that I hope the lessons will be learned by all others. Never

:19:55.:19:58.

should claims without evidence be progressed. Never should serving

:19:59.:20:01.

police officers, never believe -- leave a man. Those who are facing a

:20:02.:20:10.

republican agenda, as freedom fighting terrorism, today,... With

:20:11.:20:17.

the honourable gentleman agree with me and I think the whole House is

:20:18.:20:23.

incredibly moved by his words and I think he would agree with me, from

:20:24.:20:26.

what he's saying so movingly and eloquently, that is a House,

:20:27.:20:32.

regardless of party, we owe a huge debt to all of these people and I'm

:20:33.:20:36.

sure he would join me with me and saying that and I would wish to join

:20:37.:20:40.

with him in sharing his views that as I say he's expressing so movingly

:20:41.:20:42.

and eloquently to this house. If we in this party want is set the

:20:43.:20:54.

record straight for future generations. The atrocities during

:20:55.:20:57.

the trouble from whatever side the Rose was nothing more than words.

:20:58.:21:03.

There is no glory, there is no honour in wives without husbands. No

:21:04.:21:08.

honour in children without a father. Novelli Crier rant bombs that took

:21:09.:21:12.

the lives of men and women within the women of women out shopping.

:21:13.:21:16.

There is no victory in the indiscriminate slaughter of peoples

:21:17.:21:19.

worshipping in church Sunday morning. It is a legacy of men and

:21:20.:21:22.

women who gave their all for freedom and democracy. The honour belongs to

:21:23.:21:27.

those who lead their lives with the sorrow of great flaws but chose not

:21:28.:21:31.

to retaliate. Their valley cries for those who asked for the memory of

:21:32.:21:34.

their loved ones not to be tarnished. Victory belongs to the

:21:35.:21:38.

right-thinking people of Northern Ireland to have chosen to support

:21:39.:21:43.

the rule of law and justice under waiting for us to give them the

:21:44.:21:46.

support they deserve. We remember the truth, we stand to honour those

:21:47.:21:53.

who are falling but we also promise to protect their legacy.

:21:54.:22:03.

Thank you. What a moving speech from the Honourable member. I would like

:22:04.:22:11.

to congratulate the member for Lagan Valley for a very powerful speech

:22:12.:22:16.

that really set the tone for today. I'm really pleased that this debate

:22:17.:22:20.

is happening but I had hoped to have won ourselves but we were not

:22:21.:22:23.

allowed to have it until after the elections falls very well indeed and

:22:24.:22:27.

congratulations to everyone. The whole point is looking for fairness

:22:28.:22:33.

and balance in the way justice is far but what I want to really get

:22:34.:22:39.

across, this is not just a Northern Ireland problem. These were our

:22:40.:22:42.

troops from the whole of the United Kingdom. This is a problem that this

:22:43.:22:46.

house must embrace all the way through. We cannot just say it

:22:47.:22:51.

relies on the legacy to be sorted out at Stormont. Yes, we have a huge

:22:52.:22:56.

part to do at Stormont and all of us want to see it sold us a call really

:22:57.:23:00.

for unity. Everyone pulling together so that we come up with a solution.

:23:01.:23:05.

If we do not have storm in her after this election the duty falls on this

:23:06.:23:10.

house. It falls on all of us to find that right way forward and let's

:23:11.:23:14.

ensure that we do that. I've always wanted all the way through my time

:23:15.:23:20.

to say a huge thank you to all of those who served in Northern

:23:21.:23:23.

Ireland. That's not just the soldiers of the security forces. It

:23:24.:23:28.

is also those in the community. The political. There are mass of people

:23:29.:23:31.

have done so much work and are doing so much work. Those of the people we

:23:32.:23:39.

should be praising. In my own party I've ex-servicemen who are all show

:23:40.:23:44.

the path we've all been through. And particularly anti-Allen who lost his

:23:45.:23:48.

legs and his eyesight in Afghanistan and was one of the greatest heroes

:23:49.:23:54.

we have got to us today is one of our members of the assembly. Someone

:23:55.:23:59.

who's really gritted his teeth and found a way forward. That is the

:24:00.:24:04.

pride that we all must have. I was pleased to see the report being

:24:05.:24:10.

mentioned from the defence committee which the Honourable member for

:24:11.:24:16.

Plymouth had put together. Which has two Riddick recommendations on it

:24:17.:24:21.

but extremely sad to see the way the Government dealt with it. They took

:24:22.:24:26.

it from under him. In the house and wonderful recommendations as to how

:24:27.:24:30.

we should be looking at future investigations. If I have any

:24:31.:24:34.

complaint it is because it only talks future. It be talking about

:24:35.:24:40.

present and future investigations. It is good that this has been closed

:24:41.:24:43.

down bubbly to look at the recommendations that are in that

:24:44.:24:49.

report. There are good ideas there and this how should take them all on

:24:50.:24:56.

board. Last weekend I met someone, a senior officer in the services, who

:24:57.:25:00.

told me that he came home the other day to his house to find that two

:25:01.:25:05.

plainclothes detectives had been knocking out his door asking about

:25:06.:25:11.

the past. His wife naturally was concerned. The children very

:25:12.:25:19.

concerned. Yet that is just one example that is why we're having a

:25:20.:25:25.

debate today. Let's the most of not just that report but the chance that

:25:26.:25:28.

we have got and work together. We've really got to find a way through

:25:29.:25:34.

this. Their rugged mechanisms in place for stop the historic

:25:35.:25:38.

enquiries unit, good idea but we must make sure that does not mean

:25:39.:25:42.

we're looking at cases twice we must, and it would be better to give

:25:43.:25:45.

the same powers to the police force and carry on with what we're doing

:25:46.:25:51.

now but make sure that they have the right powers and resources to carry

:25:52.:25:56.

on and conclude all the matters. We have got to take on board that there

:25:57.:26:01.

is a tarnishing and blackening the security forces continually in

:26:02.:26:06.

Northern Ireland. Always in the papers every week and we do nothing

:26:07.:26:14.

about it from outside. -- from our side. If you follow Sinn Fein of

:26:15.:26:17.

what they have been doing about this nicely to the tarnishing that goes

:26:18.:26:24.

on, they have a continual intention of continually doing down our armed

:26:25.:26:29.

services. There will call them Imperial, they will call them

:26:30.:26:33.

undisciplined, but we know from 250,000 serving their that in most

:26:34.:26:38.

cases they were the most professional. We've got to support

:26:39.:26:41.

them. Got to make sure things are fair. What started was the major

:26:42.:26:48.

Hutchins Case and I'm very pleased to see the whole house pulling

:26:49.:26:53.

together and making sure that we are looking at this. I work in the prime

:26:54.:26:57.

Minster's comments of being their balance and proportion but we've got

:26:58.:27:01.

to do it now. We cannot just keep waiting. We've got to keep going. I

:27:02.:27:07.

know I'm running out of time and I'm happy to give way.

:27:08.:27:15.

Very quickly, surely a political decision allows people sentenced

:27:16.:27:22.

from 125 year to only three was a political decision. It could be made

:27:23.:27:24.

here to sort out this problem. Very much. The Honourable member is

:27:25.:27:31.

right. It is a political decision and we have the chance to make sure

:27:32.:27:35.

that we must not be giving amnesties to the terrorist. We must find a way

:27:36.:27:39.

forward that does not have equivalents. We must find a way

:27:40.:27:43.

forward that resolves at all and it is possible if we'll sit down

:27:44.:27:47.

together and actually do it. We need the truth and justice for the

:27:48.:27:51.

victims and that must be underneath it all the way through. One thing

:27:52.:27:56.

that has bothered me all the way through and I find it uncomfortable.

:27:57.:28:01.

We are written election time here today and been told that we blame it

:28:02.:28:06.

on the Belfast agreement. Belfast, I believe architects of that agreement

:28:07.:28:12.

in this room. The person who proposed the whole motion. We should

:28:13.:28:15.

be working together not attacking each other and it bothers me to hear

:28:16.:28:24.

at times certain members of the party that here with me actually

:28:25.:28:32.

tried to get Jonathan in his book is that they tried to get Tony Blair to

:28:33.:28:36.

write to Ian Paisley at the time to say that they would accept the on

:28:37.:28:45.

the runs and blame it all. I hope that is wrong but I just put that

:28:46.:28:48.

out there because election points where being made today. I get back

:28:49.:28:52.

to my point. Let's all work together and make sure...

:28:53.:29:01.

I would like to thank all the Honourable members who brought this

:29:02.:29:05.

matter board for the bait. I'm going to focus on issues that relate to

:29:06.:29:11.

the IHAT process. Colleagues have fully and eloquently address the

:29:12.:29:13.

situation in relation to Northern Ireland. I was not in this place

:29:14.:29:22.

during the Iraq war or in 2010 when IHAT was established. There are

:29:23.:29:26.

three questions. How got to the point establishing it, what went

:29:27.:29:29.

from the process and where do we go from here. In an earlier debate on a

:29:30.:29:33.

belated topic and Honourable member opposite was no longer in his place

:29:34.:29:36.

set to a colleague of mine the danger of the argument is that the

:29:37.:29:41.

Scottish National Party is turning soldiers from cannon fodder into

:29:42.:29:44.

courtroom fodder. I think that when the Honourable member reflects on

:29:45.:29:47.

that statement you might have regretted the implication is members

:29:48.:29:54.

of our Armed Forces should never be regarded as cannon fodder. It does

:29:55.:30:02.

appear that the last thing... For many members here today, and I am

:30:03.:30:07.

the same, I am very conscious that we ask of Armed Forces to undertake

:30:08.:30:11.

dangerous operations. We may not always agree here with the

:30:12.:30:14.

Government foreign policy or defence strategy but one of the implications

:30:15.:30:18.

of joining the Armed Forces is in part to pass to others the

:30:19.:30:22.

responsibility for deciding who is and who is not an adversarial. Their

:30:23.:30:26.

right to expect the fullest protection we can for people who do

:30:27.:30:30.

a job with commitment and professionalism and they are

:30:31.:30:34.

renowned for that. So they have a right to respect the laws that they

:30:35.:30:36.

are required to be clear. The techniques they are taught to use,

:30:37.:30:39.

the training given and the rules of engagement which they operate under

:30:40.:30:42.

must be in compliance with these laws and they must be kept

:30:43.:30:46.

up-to-date. You hereby grant to this process it seems as though the MoD

:30:47.:30:49.

failed in that aspect of their duty of care. We can endlessly debate the

:30:50.:30:58.

territorial extension versus application of international

:30:59.:31:00.

humanitarian law but in the real world, based on current and past

:31:01.:31:04.

memories of the Armed Forces, you cannot consider this at your leisure

:31:05.:31:07.

if you find a serious allegation made against you. IHAT was set up in

:31:08.:31:12.

a desperate attempt to address that very but it was not the right answer

:31:13.:31:17.

or delivered in the right way. In my constituency I doubt with a case

:31:18.:31:21.

where I had dealt very buggy with a veteran, wasting huge fees also is,

:31:22.:31:24.

sending officers from the South Ringland to Scotland on the wasted

:31:25.:31:32.

journey. The was a clarity about the status and the operated by breaching

:31:33.:31:35.

confidentiality and asking members of the community for his

:31:36.:31:39.

whereabouts, which was unacceptable. Yet not done anything wrong. There

:31:40.:31:43.

is no justification for behaving like some kind of military Sherlock

:31:44.:31:49.

Holmes. There was an ultimate failure for providing pastoral care.

:31:50.:31:52.

I would ask members to reflect white was necessary to put in place such

:31:53.:31:55.

specific resorts as per the Iraq conflict. Is this another of the

:31:56.:31:59.

toxic legacy from the conflict that will disappear over time? It's

:32:00.:32:03.

interesting that with the living changes was the ship from RNP

:32:04.:32:07.

resources to enable police because of a perceived conflict for the RNP

:32:08.:32:10.

carrying out enquiries into their own former cases. Maybe the complex

:32:11.:32:16.

international framework means resources of the kind put in place

:32:17.:32:20.

these to be planned for to make sure it is undertaken with a great deal

:32:21.:32:23.

more professionalism and concern for the well-being of current and former

:32:24.:32:28.

service personnel. Was beaten to the question how we go forward from

:32:29.:32:34.

here. There is an acceptance in the report that the IHAT process has

:32:35.:32:37.

thought of the problems that are caused when many cases foreseeable

:32:38.:32:41.

and avoidable. The first printable that the report recommends to be

:32:42.:32:47.

considered for the future is the importance of the report for service

:32:48.:32:50.

personnel and that goes to the heart of this issue. No one wants to see

:32:51.:32:55.

innocent members of the Armed Forces unfairly accused of wrongdoing. They

:32:56.:32:59.

do a difficult and dangerous job of the most part they do it extremely

:33:00.:33:04.

well. Justice cannot be served as processes are managed in a

:33:05.:33:08.

transparent and expedition way. This important that the MoD accepted that

:33:09.:33:11.

if poor or illegal practices are taught to service personnel the name

:33:12.:33:18.

of needs to step up rather than letting individuals take the blame.

:33:19.:33:22.

Of cases have been disposed of that must be assumed reopening can only

:33:23.:33:25.

occur if compelling evidence is brought forward and similarly, cases

:33:26.:33:30.

should only be opened after ten years and exceptional situations.

:33:31.:33:32.

The decision to outsource the match was an helpful. The blanket closure

:33:33.:33:39.

of IHAT cannot be seen as our primary responses. The desire to

:33:40.:33:41.

distinguish between serious and spurious claims is laudable but no

:33:42.:33:45.

indication has been given about how there can be determined without

:33:46.:33:49.

judicial process. Service personnel deserve to know which judicial

:33:50.:33:52.

process it will be and that choice will be well considered. So action

:33:53.:33:57.

is needed to provide an alternative and avoiding the MOT being allowed

:33:58.:34:01.

to continue with processes that are not independent or transparent. The

:34:02.:34:04.

first solution is just to denigrate from the ECU char because when not

:34:05.:34:13.

prepared, we are potentially copping it with my causing problems. There

:34:14.:34:18.

was a danger of confusing them as what we cannot cannot do in that

:34:19.:34:23.

context. I was disappointed to read that Attorney General's evidence

:34:24.:34:28.

when he confessed to a having no knowledge. Given the history in the

:34:29.:34:34.

badger was attending as a witness that was an extraordinary lack of

:34:35.:34:40.

prepared nests. The Government must not pass responsibility. Differences

:34:41.:34:47.

in interpretation could put our forces and others around them at

:34:48.:34:52.

risk. The Secretary of State for Defence's justification that

:34:53.:34:54.

military advisers that there is a risk of serious the undermining the

:34:55.:34:57.

operational effectiveness of the Armed Forces just does not stack up.

:34:58.:35:01.

It may be unpalatable to them on to the Government, but looking forward,

:35:02.:35:06.

the truth is that that simply means that the MoD rising the defence of

:35:07.:35:10.

human rights and its responsibility to our Armed Forces are they

:35:11.:35:13.

cost-cutting measure. Whatever the solution is, that is no solution at

:35:14.:35:15.

all. Can I start off by thanking everyone

:35:16.:35:26.

that has taken part in the debates today? There have been a number of

:35:27.:35:30.

very powerful speeches and I think a lot of very good points have been

:35:31.:35:34.

made. I am limited by time so I am so they going to cut to some of the

:35:35.:35:37.

observations I wanted to raise coming out of the IHAT issue. None

:35:38.:35:45.

of us want to see members or former members of the Armed Forces treated

:35:46.:35:56.

unfairly. There are a backlog of cases unresolved and many service

:35:57.:36:01.

personnel faced uncertainty over the accusations faced. That is something

:36:02.:36:04.

we're not operable with so we must have adequate resources an

:36:05.:36:11.

investigation of allegations and a system to identify allegations

:36:12.:36:13.

without substance and throw them out, which did not happen initially

:36:14.:36:18.

with IHAT. As I said last year, I would also favour a criminal charge

:36:19.:36:26.

into wasting police time where appropriate, where there have been

:36:27.:36:29.

frivolous allegations made against service personnel is that only

:36:30.:36:33.

served to bog down our investigators, cost taxpayers money

:36:34.:36:40.

and impose suffering on service personnel investigated on spurious

:36:41.:36:44.

grounds. The possibility of pursuing the prosecution of time wasters

:36:45.:36:50.

would prevent unfounded cases being brought and investigated. I also

:36:51.:36:56.

want to comment on the government's decision to derivate from article 25

:36:57.:37:00.

of the European convention on human rights as a response to the

:37:01.:37:04.

situation that arose with IHAT and has been more widely discussed

:37:05.:37:13.

today. I am concerned that that decision sends the wrong message to

:37:14.:37:16.

the rest of the world about our commitment to human rights. To be

:37:17.:37:20.

clear, I believe that service personnel must be held to the high

:37:21.:37:24.

standards of behaviour that we expect but be fully supported by the

:37:25.:37:28.

MOD where allegations are made. That means being offered proper legal

:37:29.:37:32.

representation and support. Allegations must be taken seriously

:37:33.:37:36.

but equally serious must be the consequences of bringing fictitious

:37:37.:37:40.

cases as many of us suspect may have been the case previously. Finally,

:37:41.:37:45.

on the argument put forward by the honourable member for New Forest

:37:46.:37:50.

East at PMQs yesterday and messed mentioned by the Member for Lagan

:37:51.:37:58.

Valley, regarding the use of a statute of limitation in cases. --

:37:59.:38:02.

and mentioned by. Certainly, this is a proposal we should look at

:38:03.:38:07.

seriously. It is certainly worth considering and I hope it is

:38:08.:38:10.

something that can be taken for and investigated properly. Justice being

:38:11.:38:16.

done and includes fairness to Armed Forces personnel, who are entitled

:38:17.:38:21.

to due process, answering the allegations made within a reasonable

:38:22.:38:24.

time frame. There will be exceptions and we have to be careful with these

:38:25.:38:30.

issues. The sources have our support and gratitude for difficult work.

:38:31.:38:34.

They are also defending our values. That means that they must live by

:38:35.:38:37.

the same values they defend with such distinction and we must ensure

:38:38.:38:42.

that we look after our personnel and treat them with fairness. It is a

:38:43.:38:56.

privilege to follow the members for Stirling and East Renfrewshire

:38:57.:38:59.

because I think that we are getting close to the conclusion of the

:39:00.:39:01.

debate today and they have widened the scope of it to the entirety of

:39:02.:39:06.

the content of our motion. Once we have a particular and strong view on

:39:07.:39:13.

the history and experience faced in Northern Ireland, there is a wider

:39:14.:39:16.

challenge for government which the motion seeks to address and I am

:39:17.:39:22.

grateful for those comments. I was mildly apprehensive that coming

:39:23.:39:24.

towards the conclusion of this debate I would find myself repeating

:39:25.:39:30.

points already made. Now that I have been bestowed with the

:39:31.:39:33.

responsibility of summing up the debate, my responsibilities happily

:39:34.:39:37.

live with my apprehensions are so I'm keen to summarise what I think

:39:38.:39:43.

has been an important debate. Given the seriousness, not only of this

:39:44.:39:50.

singular issue, but the wide range of complex political dilemmas that

:39:51.:39:53.

we face in Northern Ireland, we have the rare opportunity to have such a

:39:54.:40:02.

wholesome and fulsome debate. On behalf of my party I hope it is in

:40:03.:40:06.

order for me to thank all those members who have dissipated, either

:40:07.:40:11.

through substantive speeches or interventions. Some of the Neuer

:40:12.:40:15.

date, some pointed but all have contributed to the substance and

:40:16.:40:18.

importance of this debate and for that I am grateful. My my honourable

:40:19.:40:22.

friend, the Member for Lagan Valley, I think commenced this debate are

:40:23.:40:29.

superbly. He did so with a level of dignity that befits this issue. But

:40:30.:40:34.

it cuts to the core of the problem and whilst many members, following

:40:35.:40:41.

his contribution, sort to emulate the aspiration that we would have

:40:42.:40:43.

balance in how we deal with legacy cases, very, very few touched on the

:40:44.:40:53.

core of the problem. And I say this in response to the Secretary of

:40:54.:40:56.

State and I am grateful for the contribution that he made but also

:40:57.:41:00.

to the responding minister. Knowing that you will not be able to give a

:41:01.:41:05.

wholesome commitment, but to keep alive in your mind that to solely

:41:06.:41:11.

leave the resolution to this problem with the Stormont House agreement

:41:12.:41:17.

and the legacy resolutions in Northern Ireland continues to allow

:41:18.:41:22.

a veto by those associated with the greater perpetrators of crime and

:41:23.:41:28.

terror in Northern Ireland, and that would be a shame. If we're going to

:41:29.:41:32.

purposely look at balance, and I think is important that government

:41:33.:41:38.

consider carefully and clearly how they are going to address the

:41:39.:41:43.

imbalance of the provisions of the Good Friday agreement, where

:41:44.:41:48.

terrorists and paramilitaries get a get out of jail free card into two

:41:49.:41:53.

years. It is clearly available in public discourse. It was legislated

:41:54.:41:57.

for and endorsed in a referendum but it is wrong. It is imbalanced,

:41:58.:42:01.

imperfect, and iniquitous to those who struggle with the memory of

:42:02.:42:09.

loved ones. So I do hope that that is a conundrum that we are working

:42:10.:42:15.

to address. Similarly, and it has been gone through in great detail,

:42:16.:42:21.

the other scheme. Consecutive governments, not just a Labour

:42:22.:42:25.

government, but that is where it has found its genesis. The Liberal

:42:26.:42:27.

government created a system where they encourage amnesty or

:42:28.:42:34.

terrorists, where those who had extradition orders sought and

:42:35.:42:37.

whenever pursuit. When people were allowed to travel back into the UK

:42:38.:42:40.

without even the fear or prospect of arrest, enquiry, investigation,

:42:41.:42:50.

never mind prosecution. Even the Director of Public Prosecutions in

:42:51.:42:52.

Northern Ireland, much maligned in all of this, helpfully contributed

:42:53.:42:57.

to the Northern Ireland affairs Select Committee enquiry, and

:42:58.:43:06.

highlighted how did a position this was for investigating authorities.

:43:07.:43:10.

And for as long as there is an imbalance in favour of those who

:43:11.:43:13.

perpetrate crime and terrorism in Northern Ireland, this is an issue

:43:14.:43:19.

that we will continue to raise. I think it is brought in to say that

:43:20.:43:22.

out of the enormous contributions that were made, there are former

:43:23.:43:27.

members of Parliament who could have been here but yet are not. The

:43:28.:43:34.

members for West Tyrone, West Belfast and Armagh, and Mid Ulster,

:43:35.:43:39.

they all have a view on how we should deal with soldiers and

:43:40.:43:45.

servicemen in this country. It has put them in the dock and put them in

:43:46.:43:50.

jail. Yet they are not here and they are not making those

:43:51.:43:52.

representations. They enjoy the veto that they have had up until now but

:43:53.:44:00.

I hope that is something which is going to change. The issues that we

:44:01.:44:07.

have dealt with this afternoon to draw on emotion. We saw that from

:44:08.:44:13.

the honourable lady from Seth Doane. We reflected on her personal

:44:14.:44:17.

experience in Northern Ireland. Our experience has crossed Buzaglo

:44:18.:44:22.

divides. The horrors that our community has faced, individuals

:44:23.:44:24.

sitting around me have faced, is real and does not discriminate

:44:25.:44:30.

across political boundaries. When my honourable friend delves into the

:44:31.:44:41.

emotion of the historical issues we have faced in Northern Ireland, I

:44:42.:44:46.

don't think anyone in this chamber lost the importance of this issue.

:44:47.:44:50.

No matter how personally and deeply affected we may have been in the

:44:51.:44:55.

past, it is real today. And that is why in drafting, as a party, a

:44:56.:45:04.

motion in the name of the Member for Lagan Valley, a motion that we hoped

:45:05.:45:11.

would obtain the unanimous agreement of this House, that the government

:45:12.:45:14.

should bring forward measures to make sure that there is balance,

:45:15.:45:16.

that the honourable member for Seth Antrim, who said in his comments

:45:17.:45:23.

that the duty falls on us all to find a way forward, that is the

:45:24.:45:25.

thing we should focus on. -- South Antrim. I'm not going to spend much

:45:26.:45:34.

time focusing on the latter Cameron is of the contribution because I do

:45:35.:45:38.

not think they were worthy to the entirety of this debate or to the

:45:39.:45:42.

sentiment he was expressing himself. -- his latter comments within his

:45:43.:45:48.

distribution. Having probably not fulfilled my obligation in

:45:49.:45:51.

reflecting the contributions of all of those who participated, I think

:45:52.:45:56.

we have had a most useful, a most important and in most timely debate

:45:57.:46:01.

here this afternoon. The onus very much lies with government. What we

:46:02.:46:06.

are talking about this afternoon cannot be dealt with in Northern

:46:07.:46:09.

Ireland, it cannot be dealt with through the Stormont House

:46:10.:46:17.

structures. The challenge is there, but want us there, the desire, the

:46:18.:46:22.

necessity for balance and fairness and equality that is talked about

:46:23.:46:29.

often. That is there with government and I hope the government takes this

:46:30.:46:38.

opportunity to respond. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to begin by

:46:39.:46:47.

thanking the speakers from all sides of the House. Following on from the

:46:48.:46:54.

Member for East Belfast who was very generous in welcoming all of the

:46:55.:46:57.

contributions from the House some differing views. But the generosity

:46:58.:47:04.

I would like to offer is to the people who spoke with passion on

:47:05.:47:07.

this issue. Having been through the Westminster Hall debates, visiting

:47:08.:47:12.

the tearooms, I have received many dozens of letters from MPs and

:47:13.:47:21.

constituents on this matter. And I know that the Member for Lagan

:47:22.:47:28.

Valley, who I've spoken to about this, was also reflected in the

:47:29.:47:36.

Westminster Hall debate. He clearly, very powerfully led that a few weeks

:47:37.:47:42.

ago. This is an incredibly important subject and one which generates that

:47:43.:47:48.

great strength of feeling. I will try to address some of the issues

:47:49.:47:53.

that have been raised. Before I do so, I think it is important that we

:47:54.:47:59.

put on record this government's deep and abiding admiration for the

:48:00.:48:02.

members of our Armed Forces and police, who have served not only

:48:03.:48:07.

Northern Ireland, but in many other arenas as the motion before us today

:48:08.:48:16.

notes. As the Secretary of State make clear, without it sacrifice,

:48:17.:48:19.

putting their lives at risk to protect the people of Northern

:48:20.:48:25.

Ireland from terrorists, willing to kill, bomb and Maine, and to

:48:26.:48:29.

maintain the rule of law, those people have made that huge effort.

:48:30.:48:33.

The peace process itself would quite simply have not acceded without

:48:34.:48:37.

them. It is also the case that the vast majority of the more then

:48:38.:48:43.

250,000 men and women who served in the Royal Ulster Constabulary and

:48:44.:48:48.

the Armed Forces in Northern Ireland during the troubles carried out

:48:49.:48:52.

their duties with exemplary professionalism. However, the rule

:48:53.:49:00.

of law applies to all and must be allowed to take its course

:49:01.:49:04.

independent of government and political interference.

:49:05.:49:09.

Nevertheless, I would like to acknowledge the concern among many

:49:10.:49:16.

veterans about her past events have been investigated in Northern

:49:17.:49:19.

Ireland. The justice system in Northern Ireland is a devolved

:49:20.:49:23.

matter and the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive and

:49:24.:49:26.

assembly. However the government is concerned that the current system,

:49:27.:49:32.

investigating the past, does not reflect the 90% of deaths in the

:49:33.:49:36.

troubles that were caused by terrorists. And overall,

:49:37.:49:40.

disproportionately are focused on the actions of soldiers and police.

:49:41.:49:47.

Reform is needed and in the interests of all, including the

:49:48.:49:50.

victims and survivors who suffered most, that is why the government,

:49:51.:49:57.

this government supports a fool and faithful imitation of the sport

:49:58.:50:03.

house agreement, to bring a new, balanced, and proportionate approach

:50:04.:50:08.

to dealing with Northern Ireland's past, including a new historical

:50:09.:50:12.

investigations unit to take over investigations into outstanding

:50:13.:50:19.

troubles related deaths from the Police Service of Northern Ireland

:50:20.:50:22.

and the police ombudsman. This will include investigations into the

:50:23.:50:27.

murders of nearly 200 soldiers including those killed in the bus

:50:28.:50:35.

bombing and the awful events at Warrenpoint. I would like to turn

:50:36.:50:39.

now to some of the many thoughtful comments made by members of the

:50:40.:50:41.

House. Where I cannot give full details

:50:42.:50:49.

would like to write on some of them because there were some challenging

:50:50.:50:55.

questions and some thought for contributions. The right Honourable

:50:56.:51:06.

gentleman for Ealing North has always given an excellent

:51:07.:51:11.

performance but I know, actually, having spent some time in the house

:51:12.:51:17.

with him, his huge passion for Northern Ireland. Very considered

:51:18.:51:24.

and thoughtful contributions. And actually, somebody who is in

:51:25.:51:28.

forthright in offering me thoughts and exchanging his great knowledge

:51:29.:51:33.

not just in the time I've been in this post but over recent years. And

:51:34.:51:40.

I do PCH 's thoughts and I've bought one particular comment he made about

:51:41.:51:47.

progress in the future requires a settlement of the past I thought was

:51:48.:51:51.

a very, very appropriate thought. And I think it said much of the town

:51:52.:51:58.

on the back of the contribution by the member for Lagan Valley. But at

:51:59.:52:04.

the beginning of the debate talking about that template language that

:52:05.:52:09.

was required in the debates and I thought that was important again. An

:52:10.:52:19.

event in the election period has an opportunity to be unworthy of the

:52:20.:52:22.

South but I think this debate has been very measured and very tempered

:52:23.:52:27.

and I think we all value that contribution for the member from

:52:28.:52:33.

Southdown. My honourable friend the member for Northwest Norwich,

:52:34.:52:40.

Norfolk, my apologies, has inventing my ear on this issue because he is

:52:41.:52:45.

so passionate about this for many many months and I know the

:52:46.:52:49.

leadership is offered to colleagues on my side and on the other side is

:52:50.:52:55.

respected and welcome. One of the points he raised was the fact that

:52:56.:53:03.

the strength of our Armed Forces should be recognised. Quite often we

:53:04.:53:12.

focus upon mistakes and errors and actually those 250,000 people, over

:53:13.:53:19.

30 years were very restrained, made a massive contribution to peace in

:53:20.:53:22.

bringing peace and maintaining peace and maintaining law and order in

:53:23.:53:26.

place quite often that has resulted in chaos. The member for North

:53:27.:53:34.

Antrim also mentioned the issue of 30,000 police officers who regained

:53:35.:53:38.

were very professional in their approach and I have the great

:53:39.:53:41.

privilege of working with many police officers a day who maintain

:53:42.:53:46.

that professionalism. If I move onto the spokesman for the SNP, the

:53:47.:53:51.

member for Edinburgh North and Leith. She talked about education

:53:52.:53:56.

and the duty of those police officers and she raised the issue of

:53:57.:54:03.

the cowardly attack yesterday and will condemn this in the house. This

:54:04.:54:11.

group, this cult of people who are not worthy of living such a

:54:12.:54:17.

wonderful place of Northern Ireland, who are trying to drag it back to

:54:18.:54:21.

that place and that pass which we don't want to return to. Who not

:54:22.:54:28.

only sorts to murder a police officer but actually the impact on

:54:29.:54:31.

the family, the impact on those brave officers that are to go in and

:54:32.:54:36.

actually address that device that was there and the impact on the

:54:37.:54:40.

neighbouring community. We should recognise that massive contribution

:54:41.:54:45.

and we should also just recognise that our security forces and our

:54:46.:54:48.

police will continue to pursue these people and bring them to justice. My

:54:49.:54:59.

honourable friend for Canterbury recognised the balance that was

:55:00.:55:04.

needed actually in trying to address some of the issues and he

:55:05.:55:08.

particularly talked about openly fresh evidence should be brought

:55:09.:55:12.

forward, are only on that response. What to give reassurance on the

:55:13.:55:17.

historical investigations unit. The legislation requiring the HR you

:55:18.:55:22.

will include specific tests that must be met in order that previously

:55:23.:55:33.

completed cases can be reopened for investigation, specifically that new

:55:34.:55:37.

and credible evidence that was not previously available to the

:55:38.:55:42.

authorities is needed before it will open and close cases, suggest to

:55:43.:55:52.

give that reassurance. Will you also except a new element that has been

:55:53.:55:59.

introduced, where there doesn't have to be new evidence possibly claim

:56:00.:56:03.

that there are new ways of looking at the evidence and that is one of

:56:04.:56:09.

three weaknesses in the case he's making.

:56:10.:56:16.

The case is the present system is not appropriate. It is

:56:17.:56:18.

disproportionate and renew the new system. I just laid out the debris

:56:19.:56:25.

get to the point where we can implement the Stormont House

:56:26.:56:28.

Agreement with an assembly that is working and functional then we have

:56:29.:56:32.

an opportunity to address the very points that the honourable gentleman

:56:33.:56:36.

for Canterbury raised in which your believers appropriate. The member

:56:37.:56:41.

for North Belfast North, paid to beat as the Armed Forces as did many

:56:42.:56:45.

others and also commented on the Calgary acts of those who sought to

:56:46.:56:51.

murder a piece of sale yesterday. He raised the bravery. 7000 individuals

:56:52.:57:00.

who were awarded bravery medals as a consequence of their contribution to

:57:01.:57:05.

the operation. And I would also just like to agree with one specific

:57:06.:57:09.

point that he raised which was that this claim that misconduct was rife.

:57:10.:57:16.

The point that he made after that that we won't allow that this

:57:17.:57:23.

history be rewritten and their different narrative, forward. Lots

:57:24.:57:26.

of brave people out there went and serve them sought to bring peace and

:57:27.:57:32.

maintain law and order and there was not rife misconduct in the British

:57:33.:57:35.

forces. There were good people trying very hard to maintain law and

:57:36.:57:46.

order. There had been years and 90% of those that had died had died at

:57:47.:57:56.

the hands of terrorists. The Memphis Southdown have -- the member for

:57:57.:58:05.

Southdown mentioned there should be a positive future for the assembly.

:58:06.:58:09.

And young people wanting help. We all want to make sure we can get to

:58:10.:58:12.

the other side and make that work. The honourable gentleman gave

:58:13.:58:19.

vanishingly emotional speech. He talked about the sick, so I'm

:58:20.:58:25.

tired... He was sick, sour and tired of those attacking the UDR. They

:58:26.:58:31.

were very brave. I came back to my home in Yorkshire and they

:58:32.:58:38.

continued, as many IUC officers did, going home with that threat. Love

:58:39.:58:43.

God to save I've recognise the passion in which she supports them.

:58:44.:58:49.

-- I have got to say. He released his emotions there and we just

:58:50.:58:56.

recognise a good man. The member for Southampton talked about fairness

:58:57.:59:00.

and balance and called for unity and I would say that we will have an

:59:01.:59:03.

obligation, all of us, to make sure we get the other side of the

:59:04.:59:11.

election. And that we seek to make sure we got a working in functioning

:59:12.:59:19.

assembly. I would like to say just to reiterate, this Government

:59:20.:59:25.

commitment to make progress on this issue following the elections next

:59:26.:59:29.

week we'll have a massive obligation. The member for Belfast

:59:30.:59:33.

is that it should not be the people of Northern Ireland and it should be

:59:34.:59:38.

organised. We all want, the Secretary of State herself, we've

:59:39.:59:40.

awkward interests in making this work. We will do anything we can to

:59:41.:59:48.

make that a success. Thank you. The question is as on the order

:59:49.:59:59.

paper. Vote. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:00:00.:00:07.

"no". We now come to the backbench business committee debate on

:00:08.:00:13.

unaccompanied children in Greece and Italy. I'm just playing for time

:00:14.:00:26.

while the changeover takes place. Alison McGovern to move the motion.

:00:27.:00:31.

I do. I beg to move the motion as on the order paper relating to

:00:32.:00:34.

unaccompanied children in increase and it's be. The protection of child

:00:35.:00:43.

refugees is not a party political issue. It does not matter on which

:00:44.:00:48.

benches we sit in this house or watercolour rosettes we were on

:00:49.:00:52.

election day. The belief that we have duties and responsibilities to

:00:53.:00:57.

refugee children is not particular to any one political party, to a

:00:58.:01:01.

faction or to an ideology. I would like to start this debate by

:01:02.:01:05.

thanking the other sponsors of the debate, the members for South

:01:06.:01:11.

Cambridge, and for Glasgow North East. And by thanking the backbench

:01:12.:01:15.

business committee for recognising the importance of this issue and the

:01:16.:01:20.

bipartisan nature of the topic in granting us topic the debate today.

:01:21.:01:27.

Just say few days after I presented the application to the committee to

:01:28.:01:30.

secure this debate the Government made an announcement on child

:01:31.:01:35.

refugees and it is there I must start. Let me be clear. The decision

:01:36.:01:42.

to cancel the dubs scheme after admitting only 350 children shames

:01:43.:01:52.

Britain. It must not stand. That amendment, one after a hard fight by

:01:53.:01:57.

activists inside and outside the space was a symbol of recognition

:01:58.:02:00.

from the Government that we can and should do more for those children in

:02:01.:02:05.

need of our help. We all had different views about whether it

:02:06.:02:10.

went far enough but we were united in our belief that we should honour

:02:11.:02:14.

not only our international commitments but also the history and

:02:15.:02:21.

legacy of our country. Lord's dubs of Battersea arrived in Britain a

:02:22.:02:25.

refugee as part of the Kingdom of transport. One of the proudest

:02:26.:02:28.

moments in the history of our country. He himself is living proof

:02:29.:02:36.

that refugees are not a burden to our country or our culture but they

:02:37.:02:39.

are a part of us and a part of the British family. But now this. 350

:02:40.:02:46.

children and the door slams shut. Only around half the number that one

:02:47.:02:53.

man, the great Sir Nicholas Winton, managed to bring to this country. Is

:02:54.:03:01.

this really it? We're not out of that we were led to believe there

:03:02.:03:05.

would be a least 3000 children. Not enough for me but a good start. I am

:03:06.:03:11.

sure I speak for many when I say I am angry that the Government has let

:03:12.:03:18.

us all down. Worse though is the fate of children in Europe today and

:03:19.:03:24.

thought they were coming to Britain. Children from Syria, Somalia or

:03:25.:03:27.

Darfur or who have told journalists that they now may as well clamber

:03:28.:03:31.

onto lorries to get to safety as they have given up on our country

:03:32.:03:37.

keeping its promises. I'm grateful. She says were led to

:03:38.:03:41.

expect would be least 3000 children. Toshiba called a statement by the

:03:42.:03:48.

then Minister -- does she recall the statement that we will record to

:03:49.:03:52.

settling individuals in the first year with a view to setting up to

:03:53.:03:58.

3000 over the lifetime of this parliament majority of whom would be

:03:59.:04:01.

children. Is it clear why this commitment has been broken?

:04:02.:04:09.

My right honourable friend makes a very good point which I will direct

:04:10.:04:12.

to the Minister. It is his responsibility to answer that

:04:13.:04:19.

question today. The Government have made two arguments to justify this

:04:20.:04:22.

decision and I will talk about pull factors in my contribution. But on

:04:23.:04:29.

local authority capacity. It is not true that there is no space left for

:04:30.:04:33.

dubs children in the care of local authorities would in fact, the Home

:04:34.:04:36.

Office cannot make this claim because they have not even asked

:04:37.:04:40.

about dubs spaces for the future. Take Lewisham, for example. They

:04:41.:04:45.

have said they can take 23 children and they have received just one. So

:04:46.:04:50.

how many places were offered by local authorities for dubs children?

:04:51.:04:54.

Does the Home Office even know? If not they say... How can they say

:04:55.:05:00.

there is no places left and I would like to ask the Minister, will he

:05:01.:05:04.

published the biggest. Will you tell us how many children each local

:05:05.:05:07.

authority is taken so that civil society groups and MPs can work with

:05:08.:05:11.

them to try to get more space is open. This house deserves answers.

:05:12.:05:18.

There is much more to be done working with local authorities to

:05:19.:05:24.

resettle children under the scheme. We cannot and should not give up.

:05:25.:05:32.

Would she like, as I would, and I'm sure other members would, to know

:05:33.:05:34.

from the Government how many people have been allowed to come under the

:05:35.:05:41.

Canada sponsorship scheme or the equivalent of the Canada sponsorship

:05:42.:05:45.

scheme. As I understand it so far to people I been accommodated under the

:05:46.:05:46.

scheme. I thank the honourable gentleman for

:05:47.:05:57.

his question. Again, that question must be answered today by the

:05:58.:06:05.

Minister. Now it is deeply depressing to start a debate that

:06:06.:06:09.

was supposed to be focused on how to build on the Dubs amendment by

:06:10.:06:13.

having to refight the same fight over and over again. Because this

:06:14.:06:16.

debate is really about how we can do more for the many are accompanied

:06:17.:06:21.

child refugees stuck in Greece and Italy. I will give way in just a

:06:22.:06:25.

moment. I know that the Minister will talk about the fantastic

:06:26.:06:28.

support this country offers to refugee camps in North Africa, about

:06:29.:06:36.

how much we spend and that we do not want people to attempt the perilous

:06:37.:06:40.

journey across the sea and I wholeheartedly agree with them. It

:06:41.:06:44.

is right that we do everything possible to keep children out of the

:06:45.:06:50.

hands of people traffickers. Now he wants people, least of all children,

:06:51.:06:55.

boarding those boats and making that crossing, but we must move beyond

:06:56.:06:58.

these generalities. We are talking about desperate individuals and the

:06:59.:07:04.

fact is that hundreds of children do board those boats, they do end up in

:07:05.:07:08.

Greece and Italy and when they arrive, they remain vulnerable to

:07:09.:07:10.

the same traffickers who put them on the boats in the first place. They

:07:11.:07:17.

are exploited physically and often sexually and they are made to see

:07:18.:07:20.

and injury things that no child should ever have to. We know that

:07:21.:07:24.

unaccompanied children are the most at risk and we know that as the

:07:25.:07:29.

conflict continues unabated in Syria and parts of Africa, there are more

:07:30.:07:33.

children arriving in Europe without an adult to look after them. I thank

:07:34.:07:38.

the honourable lady for giving way. She is making a passionate case for

:07:39.:07:43.

her view on this but I represent Dover. Across the channel we have

:07:44.:07:48.

the Calais jungle, the biggest migrant magnet, or with people

:07:49.:07:51.

condemned to live in squalor. They are there with the hope of getting

:07:52.:07:56.

into Britain. The problem is that having a situation where we take

:07:57.:08:02.

people in from Europe to simply -- just simply increases the migrant

:08:03.:08:07.

problem. We know that because we are on the front line. As a member of

:08:08.:08:11.

Parliament who also represents a port area of our country, I pay

:08:12.:08:15.

tribute to all those people who work to keep our borders safe. I will

:08:16.:08:20.

come to the argument that the honourable gentleman makes in just a

:08:21.:08:31.

moment. Some of us last night were lucky enough to attend a screening

:08:32.:08:37.

of Ross Kemp's documentary on Libya's migrant nightmare, a

:08:38.:08:41.

harrowing account of what was going on in Libya at the moment. Would she

:08:42.:08:45.

agreed with me, and I think it should be compulsory viewing for

:08:46.:08:48.

everyone in this House, which she agree that given the amnesty on

:08:49.:08:55.

calculations, with one in for four of those making the journey being

:08:56.:09:00.

children, that it is incumbent on us to show more compassion than we are

:09:01.:09:04.

currently in protecting this most vulnerable group? The honourable

:09:05.:09:10.

gentleman makes a very good point and I am sure many would agree with

:09:11.:09:15.

him. To put it simply, the risk for these children does not end when

:09:16.:09:20.

they reached dry land. The boat may be behind them but the danger is

:09:21.:09:24.

not. And we know that the refugee camps are overflowing with children

:09:25.:09:31.

being left outside cold and alone. In Greece, only half of

:09:32.:09:34.

unaccompanied child refugees are in official shelters and the rest are

:09:35.:09:38.

in squats waiting for applications to be processed. Even if they do

:09:39.:09:41.

find shelter, they are very vulnerable indeed and they simply

:09:42.:09:46.

cannot -- this simply cannot go on. We have a duty to help these

:09:47.:09:48.

children and we must not turn them away. One of the interesting points

:09:49.:09:56.

about this is that some of these children have family in this country

:09:57.:09:59.

and I would be interested to know how the Minister will respond to

:10:00.:10:02.

this. Tell us how many of these children have outstanding

:10:03.:10:09.

applications? Thank you. The honourable gentleman again raises an

:10:10.:10:14.

absolutely crucial question. If by the end of this debate the Minister

:10:15.:10:17.

has not answered his question, I think many of us will be up on our

:10:18.:10:23.

feet demanding cancers. We had made great process working -- great

:10:24.:10:28.

progress working with the French authorities to resettle children

:10:29.:10:33.

under Dubs and the legislation where people have only members living in

:10:34.:10:37.

this country. I welcome the progress made on that front but we're asking

:10:38.:10:41.

Greece and Italy, two countries that are not equipped to deal with

:10:42.:10:45.

refugee flows, to accommodate the vast majority. According to Unicef,

:10:46.:10:51.

last year more than 30,000 unaccompanied children arrived in

:10:52.:10:54.

those two countries alone and this is difficult to say the least for

:10:55.:10:58.

these countries. Problematic for Europe and bad for the children

:10:59.:11:02.

themselves. We know that despite our best efforts, children are still

:11:03.:11:06.

making the journey alone. We know that they are riding in Greece and

:11:07.:11:12.

Germany who were not able to deal with all of them. We know it is in

:11:13.:11:17.

their best interests to be transferred to the UK, but why are

:11:18.:11:23.

we not doing more to help? 30 children arrived in France and Italy

:11:24.:11:28.

last night but just eight transferred to the UK. Their best

:11:29.:11:35.

interests lie in a transfer to the UK. I am grateful to my my

:11:36.:11:40.

honourable friend for giving way and congratulations on a speech of great

:11:41.:11:46.

power. Many of us, particularly in the city constituencies, will have

:11:47.:11:49.

extensive experience of working with former unaccompanied children

:11:50.:11:56.

resident in this company. We know that the lengths of insecurity and

:11:57.:11:58.

uncertainty that prevails before they are able to make a successful

:11:59.:12:03.

application often leaves permanent damage to their mental health. Is it

:12:04.:12:06.

not absolutely essential that we cut through this and provide certainty

:12:07.:12:10.

for as many children as we can as quickly as we can. My friend speaks

:12:11.:12:19.

with great experience and I hope the Minister has listened to what she

:12:20.:12:25.

has said. In fact, if he is prepared to really consider this, he should

:12:26.:12:28.

watch the documentary made by Liverpool footballer, Diane

:12:29.:12:36.

Loughran, about his experience as a refugee, and the uncertainty that he

:12:37.:12:43.

has experienced. I would encourage the Minister to take heed. But no

:12:44.:12:50.

wonder that it has taken the best part of a year for many children's

:12:51.:12:58.

application to be processed, leaving them in the limbo that my friend has

:12:59.:13:03.

just mentioned. There are agencies in Greece and Italy working with

:13:04.:13:08.

these referrals but they will not raise the hopes of children of the

:13:09.:13:11.

process is so dire. The government is today must commit to streamlining

:13:12.:13:15.

the system so that agencies and children have confidence in it and

:13:16.:13:18.

can start making referrals quickly. We know that this can be done

:13:19.:13:22.

because it was done in France were hundreds of applications or

:13:23.:13:26.

processed in a matter of weeks. This situation is just not acceptable and

:13:27.:13:30.

we must do more. Finally, Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to address one

:13:31.:13:36.

particular argument that we hear constantly from the government when

:13:37.:13:39.

we talk about resettling refugees. Alignment we have heard repeatedly.

:13:40.:13:47.

Especially when talking about the Dubs amendment. She says that it

:13:48.:13:51.

encourages people traffickers. It acts as an incentive for perilous

:13:52.:13:57.

journeys. We heard it again today. That it is a draw for migrants. Mr

:13:58.:14:03.

Speaker, I think the government must drop this feeble line of argument

:14:04.:14:07.

once and for all. People are not getting on those boats because of

:14:08.:14:12.

pull factor is, they are doing so because they are fleeing war,

:14:13.:14:14.

poverty, famine and exportation in their own countries. Even a refugee

:14:15.:14:19.

camp in Greece or Italy, dangerous though they are, is safer than the

:14:20.:14:24.

hell they are running away from. We know this, the government knows

:14:25.:14:29.

this. If they do not, they should try to understand the reality.

:14:30.:14:34.

McHattie picture of the ruin of Homs or Aleppo and tell me again about

:14:35.:14:38.

pull factor is. -- look at a picture. See the desperation on the

:14:39.:14:42.

faces of starving people in Yemen or Somalia and explain to me again how

:14:43.:14:47.

Dubs is an incentive. Speak to a child escaping forced servitude as a

:14:48.:14:51.

soldier in Eritrea and repeat again to me that our immigration system is

:14:52.:14:56.

a drop. It isn't, it wasn't and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. I asked

:14:57.:15:00.

the Minister this. Does the government have any hard evidence to

:15:01.:15:03.

support this claim and will he produce it? If they do really

:15:04.:15:09.

believe in the pull factor nonsense, there was only one obvious change

:15:10.:15:14.

that the government could make. Under the current system, children

:15:15.:15:18.

and camps in the region can only be applied -- can only apply to be

:15:19.:15:23.

transferred if they have a parent living in the UK to be reunited

:15:24.:15:27.

with. But for children already in Europe, the rule can apply to

:15:28.:15:31.

extended family, grandparents, siblings or aunts and uncles. Many

:15:32.:15:36.

of these children are orphans. I genuinely thank her for giving way.

:15:37.:15:44.

The idea that pull factor is do not exist just because push factors do

:15:45.:15:48.

exist, does she not realise that that is an inappropriate construct.

:15:49.:15:54.

There can be push factors and pull factor is. They are not mutually

:15:55.:16:01.

exclusive. If the honourable gentleman is accepting that safety

:16:02.:16:04.

-- is suggesting that safety is a pull factor. If he is suggesting

:16:05.:16:08.

that not starving is a pull factor, I agree with them. If he is

:16:09.:16:12.

suggesting that escaping the bombs dropping on a child's head is a pull

:16:13.:16:16.

factor, then I entirely agree with him. To return to the point that I

:16:17.:16:26.

was making, this is a debate that will go on. I think it is right that

:16:27.:16:30.

we have this debate out in the open and members who disagree with me

:16:31.:16:33.

will have the chance to make their case, too. I will not give way

:16:34.:16:39.

because I need to finish now. Many of these children are orphans and

:16:40.:16:44.

they do not have parents that they can be reunited with. But the

:16:45.:16:47.

government is effectively saying that a child in a refugee camp in

:16:48.:16:51.

North Africa, with a grandparent in the UK is not eligible, but if they

:16:52.:16:55.

got on a boat and went to Italy, they would be. That is madness. Will

:16:56.:17:00.

the Minister agree to look again at this and allow children in the

:17:01.:17:04.

region to apply under Dublin to be reunited with their extended family

:17:05.:17:08.

in the UK? Mr Speaker, there are many points, as he has heard from

:17:09.:17:11.

members across this House, there are many points that the Minister must

:17:12.:17:17.

address when he speaks. On Dublin, will he commit to improving the

:17:18.:17:20.

system in Greece and Italy. Will he spent more staff, speed up the

:17:21.:17:24.

processing of applications and work with agencies in those countries to

:17:25.:17:29.

identify eligible children. We commit to allowing double in

:17:30.:17:33.

transfers in the region to extensive transfers in the UK? And on Dubs,

:17:34.:17:37.

will he show us the figures on local authority capacity? Will he at least

:17:38.:17:40.

agreed to monitor capacity and increased numbers were possible? And

:17:41.:17:45.

Wilkie, once and for all, drop the pretence that the main thing driving

:17:46.:17:48.

children onto those boats is our immigration system, rather than war,

:17:49.:17:55.

poverty and famine. Mr Speaker, I started by saying this is not a

:17:56.:17:58.

party but it will issue and I stick by that. This is about British

:17:59.:18:02.

values that we all share and our desire to honour those values across

:18:03.:18:05.

Europe and the world. People are questioning whether we mean what we

:18:06.:18:10.

say when we talk about Britain as a welcoming, open, tolerant and decent

:18:11.:18:15.

country. It is up to us to show that we are who we say we are, that we

:18:16.:18:19.

will live up to the legacy of our past, that we will not turn away

:18:20.:18:23.

from the suffering and desperation of children on our own doorsteps who

:18:24.:18:29.

need our help. The question is as on the order paper. Can I suggest to

:18:30.:18:33.

all members that we have up to nine minutes and if everybody can work to

:18:34.:18:36.

that, everybody will get equal time. The Minister now wants to come in.

:18:37.:18:42.

Thank you very much indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I find

:18:43.:18:45.

vulnerable members for bringing this motion to the House? I am grateful

:18:46.:18:50.

for your agreement to allow me to speak early in this debate. -- can I

:18:51.:18:55.

thank honourable members. I thought it would be hopeful to set up the

:18:56.:18:58.

government's position on this important matter at the outset and I

:18:59.:19:02.

want to correct many of the points already made in this debate and in

:19:03.:19:05.

the media. Britain has a proud record of helping the most

:19:06.:19:08.

vulnerable children fleeing conflict and danger and I would like to

:19:09.:19:12.

underline this government's commitment to supporting, protecting

:19:13.:19:15.

and caring for the most vulnerable asylum seeking and refugee children

:19:16.:19:20.

affected by the migration crisis. I would like to start with one thing.

:19:21.:19:25.

This government is absolutely and fully committed to helping and

:19:26.:19:28.

supporting the most vulnerable children. In the last year, we have

:19:29.:19:32.

provided refuge or other forms of relief to more than 8000 children.

:19:33.:19:37.

In the first two weeks of this month alone, we have resettled more than

:19:38.:19:42.

300 refugees to the UK, half of whom are children. Just today, 80 Syrian

:19:43.:19:49.

refugees arrived in Ulster as part of the Syrian vulnerable Persons

:19:50.:19:52.

scheme. The government has certainly not, as some have suggested, closed

:19:53.:19:56.

its doors. The government strategy is to resettle the most vulnerable

:19:57.:20:00.

refugees directly to other regions. That is how we stop traffickers from

:20:01.:20:06.

exploiting vulnerable people and children affected by conflict. By

:20:07.:20:09.

the end of this Parliament, we will have resettled 20,000 Syrian

:20:10.:20:14.

nationals through our vulnerable persons resettlement schemes, one of

:20:15.:20:17.

the biggest resettlement schemes the country has ever undertaken. And a

:20:18.:20:20.

further 3000 vulnerable children and families from the Middle East and

:20:21.:20:24.

North Africa region will have been settled under the vulnerable

:20:25.:20:26.

children is resettlement scheme. I'm pleased to update the House that

:20:27.:20:32.

over 5400 individuals, slightly more than the one that was mentioned by

:20:33.:20:36.

the honourable member have been resettled under the Syrian

:20:37.:20:39.

vulnerable persons scheme since its expansion in October 20 15.

:20:40.:20:45.

The scheme I was referring to was the

:20:46.:20:58.

Canadian sponsorship scheme. I met with representatives and I was

:20:59.:21:07.

in Jordan visiting refugee camps there and we have a scheme in place

:21:08.:21:11.

as part of these 20,000 for community groups to take people to

:21:12.:21:15.

come here. Incidentally, could I confirm, under the dubs proposals if

:21:16.:21:20.

grandparents can show they can care for children than they can come here

:21:21.:21:25.

under Dublin from another EU country. The children must first

:21:26.:21:28.

claim asylum in the country which should be the first set country they

:21:29.:21:32.

reach. Crucially, horror resettlement schemes help ensure

:21:33.:21:34.

that children do not become unaccompanied. They allow children

:21:35.:21:47.

to be resistant with their families. I am grateful for him for setting up

:21:48.:21:54.

the clarity around this issue. I want to be absolutely sure, can you

:21:55.:21:58.

confirm that the Government is still continuing to accept children into

:21:59.:22:03.

this country? As I said, last year we had a

:22:04.:22:12.

roundabout 8000 children and there are 4500 unaccompanied children in

:22:13.:22:14.

local authority care at this moment. We are pledged over to the book --

:22:15.:22:27.

over 2 million. We want other countries to commit to our amount.

:22:28.:22:35.

With committed over 100 million to help alleviate the crisis. I am

:22:36.:22:41.

proud of the part that we have played in this particular matter.

:22:42.:22:48.

Thank you for holding a surgery for MPs to clarify a point and then his

:22:49.:22:54.

brief but could I do is ask him, does he believe that statement on

:22:55.:22:57.

the seventh of brew was on my mother will love this house on the dubs

:22:58.:23:01.

amendment? I will come onto that and it is

:23:02.:23:05.

important that one reads the dubs amendment and looks at the

:23:06.:23:07.

amendments that were rejected by this house in that regard. Within

:23:08.:23:14.

Europe in 2016 be transferred over 900 unaccompanied asylum seekers to

:23:15.:23:17.

the UK from other European countries including more than 750 from France

:23:18.:23:21.

as part of the UK support of the Calle camp clearance. According to

:23:22.:23:28.

the latest resettlement reports on July 2015, the UK has resettled more

:23:29.:23:34.

people towards the's overall resettlement target than any other

:23:35.:23:38.

EU member states and in an 2016 were transferred almost as many children

:23:39.:23:45.

from within Europe as the entire EU relocation. With UK support Unicef

:23:46.:23:49.

aim rough ride shelter, food, essential supplies for 27,000

:23:50.:23:55.

children and babies. UK aid to the Red Cross supported activities

:23:56.:23:58.

including family to nutrition and we also funded a secondment of a child

:23:59.:24:06.

is protection specialist to work in Serbia. In Greece who spent ?28

:24:07.:24:10.

million to support migrants and refugees to keep an such as the

:24:11.:24:16.

UNHCR and the Red Cross. The support has reached more than 250,000

:24:17.:24:22.

people. Thank you for setting up the fax of

:24:23.:24:28.

this matter. Would he agree that we have to be careful about unintended

:24:29.:24:32.

consequences? The sentiments of the other side of the house are very

:24:33.:24:36.

sincere and our good intentions but is the roadster the hell of the

:24:37.:24:41.

Calle jungle is paved with those kind of attention and we cannot have

:24:42.:24:49.

that kind of squalor existing again. We must be of factors that be

:24:50.:24:53.

created when people make statements which can encourage people to enlist

:24:54.:25:00.

people traffickers. I thank the Minister for giving way.

:25:01.:25:05.

Does he recognise the best selling technique for the smugglers is there

:25:06.:25:09.

is no alternative safe and legal route for children to get to safety

:25:10.:25:16.

in the United Kingdom? The hope onto the Grubman Pozner

:25:17.:25:23.

approaches to help them making that journey. These are not orphaned

:25:24.:25:27.

children. These are children whose parents are sending them forward.

:25:28.:25:33.

One looks at the mortality in the Mediterranean weather children make

:25:34.:25:37.

that journey. Factors encourage people to make those jennies and

:25:38.:25:41.

many people sadly end in a watery grave. -- those journeys. Our fund

:25:42.:25:47.

prioritises unaccompanied and separated children. It provides

:25:48.:25:52.

immediate support alongside legal advice and family reunification were

:25:53.:25:59.

possible. In France we responded to a humour Terry and needs in tandem

:26:00.:26:05.

with a sovereign member state. We continue to closely with the French

:26:06.:26:09.

to address the situation in Dunkirk but both the UK and French

:26:10.:26:12.

Government are clear that migrants in northern France want claim

:26:13.:26:16.

asylum, including children, should do so in France and not risk their

:26:17.:26:21.

lives by attempting to enter the UK illegally. The French Government has

:26:22.:26:24.

made clear commitments to provide migrants who have claimed asylum

:26:25.:26:31.

with appropriate support. Those asylum seeking children close family

:26:32.:26:35.

members in the UK, not just parents, can be transferred here for

:26:36.:26:39.

assessment of their claim. We are fully committed to the timely and

:26:40.:26:43.

efficient operation of the Dublin regulation and we support the

:26:44.:26:46.

principle of family unification. We have engage with partners on this

:26:47.:26:50.

issue and we will continue to do so over the coming weeks and months to

:26:51.:26:52.

ensure that children with close family in the UK can be transferred

:26:53.:26:56.

here for assessment of their asylum claim quickly and safely. We're also

:26:57.:27:01.

working closely with the member states to deliver this. If I could

:27:02.:27:14.

make a bit of progress. Mr Deputy Speaker, I am praised deliberate

:27:15.:27:22.

pleased that the Home Secretary will be writing to counterparts to us for

:27:23.:27:26.

referrals for eligible children to the specified number 350. The basis

:27:27.:27:29.

on which these transfers will be made with published in due course.

:27:30.:27:32.

The Government has always been clear that we want... That we do not want

:27:33.:27:39.

to incentivise perilous journey to Europe, particularly by the most

:27:40.:27:42.

honourable children. It is not and has never been the case, as been

:27:43.:27:46.

suggested, that the Government would accept 3000 children from Europe

:27:47.:27:51.

under 67. I would just make this point because this has been

:27:52.:27:54.

misrepresented on many occasions in the past. It has been suggested that

:27:55.:27:57.

the Government would accept 3000 children from Europe under 60 seven.

:27:58.:28:06.

In fact, parliament voted against such an amendment. The legislation

:28:07.:28:10.

is clear that the Government has the obligation to specify the number of

:28:11.:28:14.

children to be relocated and to relocate back number of children to

:28:15.:28:17.

the UK. That is exactly what we're doing. There is been some suggestion

:28:18.:28:22.

that my lead assessor confirmed that 3000 children would come and be

:28:23.:28:26.

resettled. He was actually referring to the vulnerable children to

:28:27.:28:29.

resettlement scheme and we are committed to bringing 3000 children

:28:30.:28:32.

and their families under that scheme by the end of the parliament. We

:28:33.:28:37.

consulted extensively... Are just need to make stop we consulted

:28:38.:28:43.

extensively with local authorities over several months to arrive at the

:28:44.:28:47.

number of additional children that they could take under 67. This

:28:48.:28:52.

included my predecessor biting, and I've also written to all local

:28:53.:28:56.

authorities, in national want of the event and over ten regional events

:28:57.:29:05.

in every part of England. Over 400 local authority brothers and sisters

:29:06.:29:08.

attended the regional events. In order to help local authorities care

:29:09.:29:13.

for over 4000 children already in their care we have launched a

:29:14.:29:17.

national transfer scheme and significantly increased funding for

:29:18.:29:19.

unaccompanied asylum seeking children. Children by between 20%

:29:20.:29:26.

and 20%. Should be clear that the knot by night 7% is not a target, it

:29:27.:29:34.

is an indication of when it would not be appropriate to transfer for

:29:35.:29:37.

the children to that local authority.

:29:38.:29:45.

I will give way. Several local authorities including Glasgow City

:29:46.:29:48.

Council have spoken to say that they were not consulted on their capacity

:29:49.:29:52.

to house refugees and they do remain ready, able and willing to accept

:29:53.:29:58.

more and shelter more unaccompanied children. Will the Minister clarify

:29:59.:30:03.

if his department regularly re-consult with local authorities to

:30:04.:30:06.

maintain an up-to-date overview of capacity for the children?

:30:07.:30:11.

I engage regularly with local authorities will double their places

:30:12.:30:14.

in Scotland then please make them available for national transfer

:30:15.:30:17.

scheme because we have local authorities in the south of England,

:30:18.:30:21.

particularly in Kent in Croydon, that are running over capacity. If

:30:22.:30:26.

spaces are available for the national transfer scheme.

:30:27.:30:39.

Can I just say, can I take him back to the point he was making about the

:30:40.:30:43.

numbers of staff from the Home Office who are in France and Greece

:30:44.:30:49.

and Italy? I want to ask. What he was saying was that they wanted

:30:50.:30:52.

stuff out there to help with this scheme but at the dinner meeting

:30:53.:30:55.

that we had with him he mentioned there was only one member of the

:30:56.:30:58.

Home Office staff out there. Can I suggest the run more stuff out there

:30:59.:31:02.

then there would be more confidence in the right children being referred

:31:03.:31:08.

under the scheme. We have 115 staff increased at the

:31:09.:31:15.

minute. Not least the successful operation of the Turkey agreement

:31:16.:31:18.

which is preventing children making this perilous journeys.

:31:19.:31:29.

I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way but can I take him back

:31:30.:31:32.

to a point that I made in my honourable friend earlier? Any time

:31:33.:31:36.

how many outstanding applications for children who have got relatives

:31:37.:31:42.

in this country and want to come to this country?

:31:43.:31:45.

I can certainly let him have that number but of course following the

:31:46.:31:50.

clearance of the Calle camp we have accelerated Dublin plate process and

:31:51.:31:53.

the majority of the 750 children everybody across from France work

:31:54.:31:59.

children under the Dublin process. When children think they have a

:32:00.:32:02.

claim under the Dublin procedure what they need to do is claim asylum

:32:03.:32:06.

in the country there are in and therefore they can be fed into the

:32:07.:32:09.

Dublin process will Dobbs is important they do that first.

:32:10.:32:16.

The independent anti-slavery Commissioner visited Italy last year

:32:17.:32:22.

made recommendations and said about the Dublin process that simply the

:32:23.:32:25.

process is not working for children will start their taking too long,

:32:26.:32:28.

combined the back of clear information about how places work in

:32:29.:32:32.

terms of specific updates about the case. It is not working. And we need

:32:33.:32:40.

to ensure that for the benefit of the children networks for the good

:32:41.:32:43.

of them and their relatives. Is there going to be a response to the

:32:44.:32:46.

corner from the independent anti-slavery Commissioner?

:32:47.:32:52.

It is indeed very important that the Dublin process works effectively and

:32:53.:32:56.

also takes into account the safeguarding of the children and

:32:57.:32:59.

shakes do need to be made to ensure that the family connection is a

:33:00.:33:02.

genuine one but also that those children will be cared for and

:33:03.:33:06.

indeed, we have had a number of children admitted under the Dublin

:33:07.:33:10.

protocol where actually that has not worked out and that is why the

:33:11.:33:14.

specified number that was set with local authorities has left some

:33:15.:33:19.

slack in there. 50 places for failed Dublin B locations. We sped back to

:33:20.:33:24.

be a minimum number. The Minister has medical shall point

:33:25.:33:29.

here. That so many children who have come here by asylum or Irish

:33:30.:33:35.

refugees, who are originally put with family members, are actually

:33:36.:33:38.

being part of the trafficking system. And they've ended up being

:33:39.:33:42.

trafficked. His crucial point and I'm glad the Government recognises

:33:43.:33:45.

that. Precisely. Those answer the point

:33:46.:33:49.

that my honourable friend has made before I may take another

:33:50.:33:52.

intervention. That is why the chicks need to be made and it is also why

:33:53.:33:56.

give resources to local authorities ensure that they can themselves

:33:57.:34:00.

check the welfare of the children. I will certainly give way. I wonder

:34:01.:34:08.

if he could give an exact same detailed analysis and responds to

:34:09.:34:14.

the honourable gentleman about how many people have been convicted in

:34:15.:34:19.

the UK for such trafficking in the last year. How many people have been

:34:20.:34:24.

convicted for those offences and also, he wouldn't mind laying out in

:34:25.:34:29.

the House of Commons library for us the evidence, Pat surveys that has

:34:30.:34:35.

led him to emphasise the pool factors. Has there been a survey

:34:36.:34:38.

done of people coming in because I would like to know what the evidence

:34:39.:34:40.

is? Certainly we take the prosecution

:34:41.:34:47.

and detection of people trafficking crime very seriously, particularly

:34:48.:34:50.

working closely with our French colleagues. I was last week in

:34:51.:34:54.

Holland and Belgium meeting with my opposite numbers and we have joint

:34:55.:34:58.

operations at the ports to insure these people trafficking gangs can

:34:59.:35:03.

be arrested and prosecuted and there has been a number of situations

:35:04.:35:06.

where that has happened and I will give the actual numbers but there

:35:07.:35:09.

have been a number of successful prosecutions.

:35:10.:35:13.

I would like to make a bit process if May. Want to talk about the

:35:14.:35:16.

trafficking issue that has been raised. I want to address the issue

:35:17.:35:20.

of trafficking put up must make clear one thing in particular. The

:35:21.:35:25.

Government agrees that is safe legal routes can help combat trafficking.

:35:26.:35:29.

That is why we have six other legal routes by which children can safely

:35:30.:35:33.

come to the United Kingdom. But the migration crisis has shown that

:35:34.:35:39.

factors such as policy changes and political messaging can influence

:35:40.:35:43.

the movement of migrants. There must be reasonable example why around

:35:44.:35:47.

2000 asylum seekers in the EU last year chose Germany and Sweden. And

:35:48.:35:51.

it is important to note they did so after passing through many save

:35:52.:35:54.

countries on the route. But whether it is push or pull factors that

:35:55.:35:59.

motivate these children to come to Europe, it must surely always be

:36:00.:36:02.

within the charred's best interests to enable them to come before the

:36:03.:36:06.

need to make dangerous journey to your about before they become

:36:07.:36:07.

unaccompanied. The government's priority is to

:36:08.:36:16.

focus on the most vulnerable children fleeing conflict and the

:36:17.:36:24.

persecution of the region. Whilst the Minister is just laying out the

:36:25.:36:28.

government's priority is here, can he be clear about what he has said

:36:29.:36:33.

about capacity increase? He says we have 115 staffing increases. Of

:36:34.:36:39.

those, -- staff in Greece. Of those, how many are working on transfers to

:36:40.:36:43.

the UK? I could give you the figures but we have 115 people there. Our

:36:44.:36:50.

work in Calais showed that there are only a handful of children from

:36:51.:36:53.

Syria. I know this motion talks specifically about children from

:36:54.:37:00.

Syria, and she talked about children fleeing Aleppo and horrible

:37:01.:37:03.

situations in Syria. In that case, would she be surprised to note that

:37:04.:37:08.

of the 750 children that came from Calais during equivalence, less than

:37:09.:37:15.

ten came from Syria. That is why I believe we are doing the right thing

:37:16.:37:18.

in going to the refugee camps and working with UNHCR, ruling out

:37:19.:37:26.

similar schemes to the ones that the Australians, Canadians and Americans

:37:27.:37:29.

have been delivering, to enable both children and the most need to come

:37:30.:37:34.

to the UK. If our aim is a country is to help those most in need

:37:35.:37:36.

fleeing conflict and persecution, then the government strategy is the

:37:37.:37:42.

right one. I welcomed the statement last week by the UN High

:37:43.:37:45.

Commissioner for refugees, where he said that in relation to

:37:46.:37:50.

resettlement, the UK is doing very remarkable things. The UK has a

:37:51.:37:54.

proud history of providing protection for those in need and we

:37:55.:37:58.

will continue to play our part in protecting the most vulnerable

:37:59.:38:01.

children affected by the migration crisis. The government has taken

:38:02.:38:05.

significant steps to improve an already come brands of approach to

:38:06.:38:08.

supporting asylum seeking and refugee children. We will continue

:38:09.:38:15.

to work to address the migration crisis and I believe the UK can be

:38:16.:38:19.

proud of its overall contribution to date and proud that we will continue

:38:20.:38:22.

to deliver on the programmes I have described.

:38:23.:38:28.

Can I congratulate my my honourable friend the Member for 1-1 south, the

:38:29.:38:36.

Member for South East Cambridgeshire and others, for securing this

:38:37.:38:42.

important and timely debate. -- the member forward or so. Can I start by

:38:43.:38:45.

welcoming the water government has done to support refugees, the work

:38:46.:38:48.

that has been done to invest in camps in the region, to set up the

:38:49.:38:59.

Syrian vulnerable persons refugee scheme, and also the work that was

:39:00.:39:02.

done last autumn to clear the Calais camp and get children into safety.

:39:03.:39:06.

There has been a lot of important work done including by the Minister

:39:07.:39:12.

that has just spoken and by the Home Secretary is well and we should

:39:13.:39:15.

welcome that. I pay tribute to the work they did with the French

:39:16.:39:19.

authorities in the autumn which got a lot of kids out of deeply

:39:20.:39:25.

dangerous circumstances in Calais and Dunkirk, or very work at huge

:39:26.:39:31.

risks of drafting, getting them into centres, bringing many vulnerable

:39:32.:39:35.

children to this country, and it was Britain doing our bit to help some

:39:36.:39:41.

of the most vulnerable and at risk children. We have examples of

:39:42.:39:44.

teenage girls from Eritrea who have been abused, raped, who have been

:39:45.:39:52.

through terrible ordeals, and who are now safe in schools in Britain.

:39:53.:39:56.

We have examples of 12-year-olds from Afghanistan now safe with

:39:57.:40:01.

foster parents instead of living in terrible conditions in northern

:40:02.:40:07.

France. We have teenagers reunited now with family in the UK rather

:40:08.:40:13.

than living in such a unsafe conditions. But it is because that

:40:14.:40:17.

was working, that partnership between Britain and France was

:40:18.:40:20.

working, that it was so shocking to many of us to hear the announcement

:40:21.:40:25.

the government made on the 8th of February that it was not only

:40:26.:40:31.

causing the thyme scheme but it was also ending the fast-track double in

:40:32.:40:37.

scheme that have made so much difference to so many of those

:40:38.:40:41.

children and teenager's lives. I wonder whether she would agree with

:40:42.:40:46.

me that it did feel when we heard that news that it was against the

:40:47.:40:49.

will of this House and against the members in this House who had

:40:50.:40:53.

debated, voted and in good faith believed that the government was

:40:54.:40:57.

going to do something under the Dubs Amendment. This was cross-party

:40:58.:41:01.

debate and cross-party work and all of us supported the Dubs amendment,

:41:02.:41:05.

just as it was cross-party pressure that got the government to set up

:41:06.:41:10.

the 20,000 Syrian scheme in the first place. I think there has been

:41:11.:41:13.

strong support for this from all sides of the House. That strong

:41:14.:41:22.

support was not simply to help for only six months. That is the real

:41:23.:41:25.

problem with what the government has done. It took them seven months to

:41:26.:41:28.

get the scheme going and it has only been running for six months and the

:41:29.:41:32.

government has decided to pull the plug. I believe that does not go in

:41:33.:41:38.

the spirit of the Dubs amendment that was agreed. I will give way. I

:41:39.:41:46.

thank my honourable friend for giving way and also for the speech

:41:47.:41:52.

she has made. Would she agree that the shock that we feel in this House

:41:53.:41:57.

at the abandonment of the Dubs amendment is echoed in our

:41:58.:42:00.

constituencies and by our constituents? Many of them have

:42:01.:42:04.

written to me specifically about the plight of children who, in a world

:42:05.:42:14.

which is closing the doors on so many different people's migration,

:42:15.:42:18.

that the plight of these children has really inspired constituents

:42:19.:42:23.

around the country. I think my honourable friend what was right.

:42:24.:42:26.

There are many people in the country deeply disappointed by this. It was

:42:27.:42:33.

working. It was saving lives and helping futures. Charities told the

:42:34.:42:36.

Home Affairs Select Committee yesterday that they estimated there

:42:37.:42:40.

had been a drop in the number of children and teenagers trying to get

:42:41.:42:49.

here illegally. We were reducing the dangerous illegal journeys by

:42:50.:42:55.

providing managed work with other countries as well. And that is

:42:56.:42:58.

crucially important to clear the Calais camp, to prevent trafficking

:42:59.:43:05.

and modern slavery, and to prevent dangerous illegal journeys.

:43:06.:43:11.

Ministers have given four reasons, firstly that the French want a

:43:12.:43:16.

closet and local authorities have no capacity, and that they have

:43:17.:43:18.

delivered on the Dubs amendment. Let's take each in turn. Yesterday,

:43:19.:43:26.

the Home Affairs Select Committee heard from one of the Childress

:43:27.:43:30.

Commissioners, and there are four agencies doing important work in

:43:31.:43:33.

Greece and Italy and along the French coast. They were all

:43:34.:43:39.

categoric that this would increase, not reduce, the trafficking risk,

:43:40.:43:44.

increase the number of children and young people who ended up in the

:43:45.:43:47.

arms of traffickers and smugglers gangs, not reduce it by taking away

:43:48.:43:54.

safe and legal routes. The Member for south-east game butcher and I

:43:55.:43:57.

visited Dunkirk in Calais on Monday, and we met 13 and 14-year-olds in

:43:58.:44:01.

Dunkirk who had been in the Calais camps. They had gone into safe

:44:02.:44:08.

accommodation but for all kinds of complicated reasons their claims had

:44:09.:44:12.

been turned down and they had lost hope. They got lost in a system and

:44:13.:44:17.

they were back, now, in Dunkirk, in a dangerous situation. This camp,

:44:18.:44:23.

seriously, I am at a loss to know how this camp is allowed to continue

:44:24.:44:27.

as it has because this has clearly been run by a smuggling gang. There

:44:28.:44:30.

is no doubt about what is happening in this Dunkirk camp. But these two

:44:31.:44:38.

teenage boys were sleeping in a hut with 80 adult men. It was deeply

:44:39.:44:43.

unsafe. When we asked them, they said they felt unsafe. They had gone

:44:44.:44:46.

back there because they had lost hope in the legal system adding them

:44:47.:44:54.

to safety. I will give way. My feeling about this is that is

:44:55.:45:00.

terrible. That is really bad but why are the French not doing anything

:45:01.:45:06.

about it? Why are the French not dealing with that situation? They

:45:07.:45:09.

should be doing it. It is in France. France is not an unsafe country.

:45:10.:45:13.

Lots of people live there are quite safely. So why are we worried about

:45:14.:45:18.

us doing this when it should be the French in that situation? I will say

:45:19.:45:22.

to the honourable member that I think the French should be dealing

:45:23.:45:25.

with the trafficking that is taking place in Dunkirk. Of course they

:45:26.:45:29.

should and should be enforcement work. Frankly, I think other

:45:30.:45:31.

countries need to do so as well because you can be in no doubt that

:45:32.:45:36.

the gang that is operating to take families across from Dunkirk to

:45:37.:45:39.

Britain will also have a lot of operations in Britain as well. There

:45:40.:45:44.

ought to be co-ordinated police action against that trafficking

:45:45.:45:47.

gang. That is absolutely important. But what was working in the autumn

:45:48.:45:52.

was joint action tween Britain and France to get the children into

:45:53.:45:55.

French centres. Some of them were then going into the asylum system in

:45:56.:45:59.

France and into safety in France and rightly so. Some of the others,

:46:00.:46:04.

perhaps the most vulnerable, perhaps those with family in Britain, or

:46:05.:46:09.

getting century in Britain. The teenagers we spoke to said they had

:46:10.:46:14.

family in Britain. They said they had been turned down that they had

:46:15.:46:18.

been given no reason, no piece of paper, nothing in the system to tell

:46:19.:46:21.

them why they had been turned down and as a result, they turned up in

:46:22.:46:26.

Dunkirk, in Calais, and you could see more and more children starting

:46:27.:46:32.

to arrive in Calais and Dunkirk and going back, at risk, pushed by the

:46:33.:46:37.

fact that the legal safe route had been taken away. I will give way. In

:46:38.:46:46.

response to the honourable member, I was with the member in Dunkirk and I

:46:47.:46:51.

came away thoroughly depressed and angry with the French authorities

:46:52.:46:54.

for letting this happen again. It took me a few days to digest what we

:46:55.:46:58.

have seen but I came away feeling that it is not right and they should

:46:59.:47:01.

be doing more but the point is that they are not. And if we do not work

:47:02.:47:06.

further downstream with Greece and Italy, they will continue to come

:47:07.:47:13.

back. Dunkirk is like Groundhog Day, it is Calais two. If they come back,

:47:14.:47:18.

it will be our problem. The honourable member is right and that

:47:19.:47:21.

is why we need to prevent those young people ending up in Calais and

:47:22.:47:24.

Dunkirk in the first place. That means work through Dublin and Dubs,

:47:25.:47:29.

whether it is in France, or better still Greece and Italy to prevent

:47:30.:47:32.

them travelling in the first place, and to have all countries work

:47:33.:47:35.

together to share responsibility for these deeply vulnerable young

:47:36.:47:39.

people. Secondly, and I will make some progress because I am conscious

:47:40.:47:44.

of the time, the French have urged us to stop the template scheme but

:47:45.:47:49.

the evidence from President Hollande is actually the reverse. I am

:47:50.:47:53.

worried that the cooperation we had in the autumn appears to have broken

:47:54.:47:57.

down. Thirdly, they have said that local authorities do not have

:47:58.:48:00.

capacity but the evidence we have heard from local authorities

:48:01.:48:04.

yesterday showed that in fact the Local Government Association said

:48:05.:48:07.

they have been consulted not specifically on Dubs but on the

:48:08.:48:12.

national transfer scheme. We should have more detailed consultations on

:48:13.:48:15.

Dubs. We heard from local councils who wanted to offer more places but

:48:16.:48:18.

actually those places had not been taken up and if local authorities

:48:19.:48:24.

met the 0.0% target that the government has said was appropriate,

:48:25.:48:29.

then they would have 3000 more places on top of those already taken

:48:30.:48:33.

by those who have arrived spontaneously. I will make progress

:48:34.:48:37.

because the Deputy Speaker wants to move on. Fourthly... The government

:48:38.:48:49.

has said that we have met the spirit of the Dubs amendment. I think that

:48:50.:48:56.

is simply not the case. Not only is this not meeting the spirit of the

:48:57.:48:59.

Dubs amendment but also the government is failing again on the

:49:00.:49:02.

Dublin agreement. The double agreement was temporarily to move

:49:03.:49:10.

towards the expedited sesame had in France. Ministers say they will

:49:11.:49:13.

learn from that but they do not seem to be doing so. In answer to the

:49:14.:49:17.

honourable member question from Loughborough, the Minister said that

:49:18.:49:20.

somehow there were 115 people in Greece. The charities told us

:49:21.:49:24.

yesterday that was one person working on child transfers. Only one

:49:25.:49:27.

in Greece. One in Italy and one in France. That is not enough to even

:49:28.:49:33.

reviewed the double in cases that the Home Office says they will

:49:34.:49:36.

review. The double cases that were turned down. I do not see how they

:49:37.:49:40.

are going to review those cases it none of those children have the

:49:41.:49:44.

paperwork or have been given any formal response as to why their case

:49:45.:49:48.

has been turned down, and they have no response by which to apply to

:49:49.:49:53.

have a case reviewed. Mr Debbie Speaker, the government has done

:49:54.:49:57.

some good things, don't rip it up. -- Mr Deputy Speaker. There is what

:49:58.:50:02.

some of the child refugees we have helped asset.

:50:03.:50:07.

Many of us have been traded like groups of cattle among smugglers,

:50:08.:50:12.

many of us know someone who has died. Another said, smuggling people

:50:13.:50:20.

and sexually abusing children, the smugglers are ruling not nice

:50:21.:50:29.

people. We have been preventing some of the illegal and dangerous routes.

:50:30.:50:34.

It is only a limited part of the refugee crisis but it is about

:50:35.:50:39.

Britain doing its bit. It was about Britain being better than this. It

:50:40.:50:44.

was something that we were proud of and we really urge the Minister to

:50:45.:50:50.

reopen the Dubs scheme, have a proper Government progress --

:50:51.:50:56.

process and let Britain help refugees again. Mr Deputy Speaker.

:50:57.:51:02.

30,000 unaccompanied children entered Greece and Italy last year.

:51:03.:51:10.

Are we simply to leave them there? While this great country with a

:51:11.:51:13.

tradition of offering asylum over hundreds of years to those who are

:51:14.:51:21.

fleeing persecution stands back and washes its hands of their fate was

:51:22.:51:27.

to mark I do not believe that it is in the interests of this country,

:51:28.:51:35.

its reputation internationally, its moral sense of self worth and

:51:36.:51:43.

dignity, for us simply to stand back and say, "That is not our problem,

:51:44.:51:52.

it is yours". I completely accept that great work has been done in the

:51:53.:51:58.

region to assist those in this plight. But I do not believe that we

:51:59.:52:06.

can afford, as a nation, the damage to our reputation that is currently,

:52:07.:52:10.

as I understand it, happening throughout Europe, by being seen to

:52:11.:52:18.

fail and fall down upon the obligations, modest as they are,

:52:19.:52:23.

that we have undertaken in international law and otherwise to

:52:24.:52:28.

assist with the plight of unaccompanied children in Europe.

:52:29.:52:33.

Now as I understand it, Mr Deputy Speaker, the Dublin regulation

:52:34.:52:41.

requires us, as a matter of law, to deal in the first instance with any

:52:42.:52:45.

application for asylum that is made by a child who has family receiving

:52:46.:52:52.

international protection in this country. That is an international

:52:53.:52:58.

law obligation. And it is incumbent upon us, incumbent upon this house,

:52:59.:53:03.

incumbent upon this Government to ensure that that obligation is not

:53:04.:53:09.

simply paid lip service to but is made practical and effective, and I

:53:10.:53:18.

can only be done, Mr Deputy Speaker, if we reach out into those tens of

:53:19.:53:24.

thousands in Greece and Italy and we look actively to find those who are

:53:25.:53:31.

in titles to be here under international law and whom this

:53:32.:53:34.

Government on the half of this house and this nation has promised to deal

:53:35.:53:39.

with them because it is our obligation. I fear for the

:53:40.:53:47.

reputation of this country that assumes an obligation and does not

:53:48.:53:52.

provide the means to make that obligation real. Would the

:53:53.:53:56.

honourable gentleman give way? Yes I will. He is making an immensely

:53:57.:54:02.

powerful speech. And does he agree with me that it isn't just our legal

:54:03.:54:06.

obligation but actually the moral obligation that we have two refugees

:54:07.:54:16.

to give them refuge? That is one of our best defences against the

:54:17.:54:21.

tyrants, the bullies, the terrorists that would oppose the values that

:54:22.:54:28.

Britain stands for? I agree with the honourable lady, I do. But let us

:54:29.:54:36.

leave aside arguments of conscience and compassion. Let us concentrate

:54:37.:54:40.

upon our legal obligations. I say that to the honourable lady not

:54:41.:54:44.

because I disavow or reduce the importance of the moral arguments,

:54:45.:54:48.

but moral arguments do not always appeal in the same light to

:54:49.:54:54.

everybody. The arguments of pull factors that are sometimes used, the

:54:55.:55:02.

push and pull factors, surround this problem with what I quite understand

:55:03.:55:06.

our difficult equations and judgments as to the practicalities

:55:07.:55:11.

and complexities of whether we should take children or not take

:55:12.:55:17.

children. But you know there are sometimes when you can surround the

:55:18.:55:20.

problem with a web of complication. And there are some times when I

:55:21.:55:26.

would prefer to be a fly than a spider. And the plight of a child is

:55:27.:55:30.

one of them. When you have the plight of a child, it transcends

:55:31.:55:37.

these kinds of complexities of pull factors and push factors. Nobody is

:55:38.:55:41.

suggesting for a moment that we should take every single one of the

:55:42.:55:45.

30,000 children a year who enter Greece and Italy, we are taking a

:55:46.:55:51.

modest view. And all the Dubs amendment meant was that we should

:55:52.:55:56.

take a modest view. And those of us on this side of the house who voted

:55:57.:55:59.

for that amendment did believe that we would take a modest view but I do

:56:00.:56:05.

not believe that we believed that it would be 350 only. So let me return

:56:06.:56:13.

to the question of our obligations. It is not in the interests of our

:56:14.:56:17.

reputation as a country to be seen to be a nation that is parsimonious

:56:18.:56:23.

and mean-spirited in the fulfilment of what is an obligation. So we

:56:24.:56:29.

should have in Greece and Italy now not this valiant single lady, Miss

:56:30.:56:35.

Malahide, who seems to be doing tremendous work, we should have

:56:36.:56:39.

dozens of Home Office officials actively looking and searching for

:56:40.:56:43.

those children who it is our legal obligation to find and to process. I

:56:44.:56:49.

give way to my right honourable friend. The dispiriting and a

:56:50.:56:54.

pressing issue is that back on the 21st of April when the then Minister

:56:55.:57:01.

for immigration explained to us that there would be teams supporting

:57:02.:57:05.

vulnerable groups such as foldable children and those trained to tackle

:57:06.:57:10.

people trafficking, this would ensure... Now with the situation

:57:11.:57:15.

from the Red Cross that it is taking some ten months to progress a

:57:16.:57:21.

child's case. It is a legal responsibility that it should be

:57:22.:57:24.

about protecting the vulnerable and not getting them through to Turkey.

:57:25.:57:29.

I agree with my honourable friend. It is our duty to process these

:57:30.:57:33.

children. It is our Judy to deal with those children who have

:57:34.:57:43.

connections... Our duty to be able to find these children. And I do not

:57:44.:57:51.

accept for a moment that a single person dealing with this is

:57:52.:57:53.

sufficient to make our obligation effective. So I agree with my

:57:54.:57:59.

honourable friend. I agree that we should be doing much more in Greece

:58:00.:58:07.

and Italy, not to take many thousands of children but simply to

:58:08.:58:11.

interpret our legal Judy in the spirit and manner that this country

:58:12.:58:18.

ought to be interpreting it, namely making it real, practical and

:58:19.:58:21.

effective. It is the cruellest of Charente is to acknowledge an

:58:22.:58:26.

obligation and not to carry out that obligation with a full heart and

:58:27.:58:30.

with a full sense of responsibility. So I say to the Minister from this

:58:31.:58:38.

side of the house, let him not think that all of us on this side of the

:58:39.:58:42.

house, and I don't believe properly interpreted many of us on this side

:58:43.:58:46.

of the house would take the approach of feeling that we should stand

:58:47.:58:50.

aside and do nothing, for those children who are arriving in Greece

:58:51.:58:59.

and Italy. I do not believe that that is our party or this side of

:59:00.:59:03.

the house's averaged problem. I ask the Minister to do more for those

:59:04.:59:07.

children in Greece and Italy, to make practical and effective the

:59:08.:59:10.

international law obligations that we have, whether it be under Dubs or

:59:11.:59:15.

whether it be under Dublin, we need to be seen to do more. The plight of

:59:16.:59:20.

the child, wherever that child is, be it in Europe or the it in the

:59:21.:59:24.

Middle East, is much more important both morally and legally than the

:59:25.:59:29.

kinds of arguments that are sometimes deployed about pull

:59:30.:59:35.

factors and push factors. Suffer the little children and for bid them not

:59:36.:59:42.

to come unto me. APPLAUSE

:59:43.:59:50.

You all want to get in, I can't have everybody clapping all we will not

:59:51.:59:54.

get to the end Ericsson will be so many good speeches. Thank you Mr

:59:55.:59:58.

Deputy Speaker. And let me first congratulate the members who managed

:59:59.:00:01.

to secure this most appropriate rate. A very passionate speech from

:00:02.:00:11.

the member for West Devon and previous speakers made. We reveal

:00:12.:00:19.

who we truly are in the face of adversity as we are now facing the

:00:20.:00:27.

worst refugee crisis since World War II, it is now time to show to

:00:28.:00:32.

ourselves and to the world who we are. Are we going to show that the

:00:33.:00:38.

UK is shameless, heartless and faceless? Are we going to show that

:00:39.:00:44.

our previous commitments mean nothing to us? Yesterday three of my

:00:45.:00:58.

constituents, aged ten, aged nine and aged nine, to attend a primary

:00:59.:01:08.

school in my constituency, came to Parliament with a letter for the

:01:09.:01:12.

Prime Minister about the Dubs children. They said," let us take

:01:13.:01:22.

them in so they are not in danger. These children appealed to the

:01:23.:01:27.

simple decency of humanity, that this Government appears to have

:01:28.:01:37.

forgotten. If they can see how we should act, why can't the

:01:38.:01:40.

Government? I call on that Government to reconsider their

:01:41.:01:48.

decision to close the Dubs scheme at 350 children and to at least return

:01:49.:01:56.

to the original commitment of 3000 children. The announcement that the

:01:57.:02:01.

Dubs scheme would limit itself to the transfer of only 350 children is

:02:02.:02:08.

in breach -- a breach of faith of this Government's commitment to

:02:09.:02:12.

match the scale of the refugee crisis in Europe. Whilst the

:02:13.:02:18.

Government have been dangerous in their bilateral financial

:02:19.:02:23.

contributions to the crisis in Syria, they should not forget the

:02:24.:02:31.

crisis in Europe. 95,000 unaccompanied, incredibly vulnerable

:02:32.:02:36.

children are currently estimated to be stranded across Europe. Such a

:02:37.:02:43.

betrayal of our commitment will undermine our relationship with

:02:44.:02:48.

other European countries. Such a small-minded and selfish action

:02:49.:02:54.

undermines the Government's promises that the UK will continue to be part

:02:55.:03:00.

of a European and global community that seeks international solutions

:03:01.:03:05.

to international problems, in which every country must play a role. I

:03:06.:03:10.

would like to ask the Home Office what conversations they have had

:03:11.:03:16.

with the French, Italian and Greek governments and how they have

:03:17.:03:24.

reacted to the decision to take such a small number of children. We have

:03:25.:03:30.

a commitment to our shared humanity and to the ideals of human rights to

:03:31.:03:36.

do all in our power to help those who are faced with abuse and extreme

:03:37.:03:42.

deprivation. We cannot turn our backs on those in need, claiming

:03:43.:03:48.

that it is not our responsibility. We cannot go to our selfish

:03:49.:03:54.

instincts, that we do not have enough to help, we cannot surrender

:03:55.:04:01.

to fear by declaring that it is too difficult. A spokeswoman for the

:04:02.:04:08.

campaign group has pointed out that the Government's claimed that local

:04:09.:04:12.

councils are too stretched to accommodate more refugees is based

:04:13.:04:17.

upon threadbare figures that are nine months out of date. The

:04:18.:04:26.

Government claimed that the 217 councils responsible in the UK for

:04:27.:04:33.

children cannot even handle two each. This is underestimating the

:04:34.:04:38.

capabilities of those selfless men and women who devote their lives to

:04:39.:04:43.

public service. My own counsel, Ealing, along with the council

:04:44.:04:46.

leader of Hammersmith and Fulham are just a view of those who have

:04:47.:04:49.

already called upon the Government to reconsider. Britain's proud

:04:50.:05:08.

tradition of providing shelter to those who are most in need. It is

:05:09.:05:12.

crucial that we do not think about this problem is simply numbers on a

:05:13.:05:18.

page. Whilst 3000 might not look that different to 350, when written

:05:19.:05:22.

down, we must remember that each number is a child that faces the

:05:23.:05:31.

dangers of overcrowded, makeshift camps across Europe. Each number is

:05:32.:05:36.

a child that faces the dangers of child prostitution rings,

:05:37.:05:38.

exploitation by human traffickers, the threat of rape and abuse,

:05:39.:05:46.

starvation and disease. It is deeply concerning that the Home Secretary

:05:47.:05:47.

talks about pull factors. Incentivising children to come to

:05:48.:06:00.

Europe. There is no evidence for this argument in the investigative

:06:01.:06:05.

work carried out by numerous agencies and NGOs including Unicef,

:06:06.:06:13.

save the children and citizens UK safe passage. In fact it is when

:06:14.:06:19.

safe and legal routes to the UK are dropped that traffickers delete...

:06:20.:06:32.

Instead, children are left with an awful choice between risking their

:06:33.:06:38.

lives by attempting to jump aboard lorries like the 14-year-old boy who

:06:39.:06:44.

was killed last year, or to rely upon human traffickers. By

:06:45.:06:47.

restricting safe and legal routes the government encourages people

:06:48.:06:52.

traffickers and the reports by save the children show the horrors of

:06:53.:07:02.

these institutions, with children as young as 13 forced into prostitution

:07:03.:07:05.

to earn their passage. In preparation for this debate, I spoke

:07:06.:07:11.

with someone who was brought over on the transports in the late 1930s. He

:07:12.:07:17.

impressed upon me the importance of thinking about the worth and

:07:18.:07:23.

potential of every human life, and that every life wasted is a huge

:07:24.:07:30.

loss to humanity. He stressed that the vast majority of children who

:07:31.:07:34.

arrived in England were from disadvantaged background and arrived

:07:35.:07:38.

in the UK with very little, and many were unable to speak English. He

:07:39.:07:42.

asked us to look at what they have been able to achieve. Lord Dubs

:07:43.:07:50.

himself is an example, but he also told me how he personally met two

:07:51.:08:00.

Nobel Prize winners among the children who arrived, including

:08:01.:08:05.

business owners and numerous doctors. It is crucial for the

:08:06.:08:09.

government is to continue their commitment to the Dublin regulations

:08:10.:08:11.

and I would like to ask the government had the intent to uphold

:08:12.:08:19.

this and? -- how they intend to uphold this commitment. I apologise

:08:20.:08:25.

for taking a little extra time, but in order to show to the world and to

:08:26.:08:30.

ourselves that the UK is a caring and compassionate society that

:08:31.:08:34.

values human life, we need to reopen the Dubs amendment and commit to

:08:35.:08:40.

rescuing more refugees stranded in Italy and Greece. Thank you. There

:08:41.:08:47.

have been some very passionate speeches and I am sure very

:08:48.:08:50.

heartfelt views but I think we ought to look back at reality and exactly

:08:51.:08:55.

what is happening. Some people just did not listen to what the Minister

:08:56.:09:00.

had to say. They did not listen to the statistics you give us to say

:09:01.:09:05.

who was being brought into this country. The numbers of people being

:09:06.:09:08.

brought into this country. I have not been to Dunkirk or to Calais, I

:09:09.:09:15.

had not been to Greece or Italy. I have not seen the refugees but I

:09:16.:09:20.

have been to Jordan and I had been to Turkey. I have seen those camps

:09:21.:09:25.

that those children and adults are living in. Nobody in their right

:09:26.:09:30.

mind wants to be in a refugee camp. It is not somewhere any of us want

:09:31.:09:36.

to go. It could be us at some point, we might need to do that but I hope

:09:37.:09:40.

not. Any country in the world could find themselves in that situation.

:09:41.:09:45.

Given the situation the Syrian people are in, which is desperate,

:09:46.:09:50.

they are in a pretty safe place in those refugee camps. They are being

:09:51.:09:58.

fed, they are being given a health service and the children are being

:09:59.:10:01.

given an education. In fact in Jordan, but many people do not

:10:02.:10:05.

realise is that the Jordanian government has said that any child

:10:06.:10:09.

on Jordanian soil, whatever nationality, because they have

:10:10.:10:15.

Palestinian refugees as well as others, will receive the same

:10:16.:10:18.

education that their own children are receiving. This is not the case

:10:19.:10:27.

for trafficked children, taken across the continent to come to

:10:28.:10:31.

Britain. Because they have been trafficked they are out of education

:10:32.:10:33.

and they do not have a health service. They should have been

:10:34.:10:39.

settled in the refugee camps. Because they are getting a pretty

:10:40.:10:43.

good deal there. The interesting thing is that they as Raff camp is

:10:44.:10:47.

not fooled. There is plenty of space there. -- the Asfar camp. I mean

:10:48.:10:58.

this very respectfully to my my honourable friend, I agree

:10:59.:11:01.

completely with her but the problem is you are reacting too late. These

:11:02.:11:04.

families had already made the journey to Greece and Italy and they

:11:05.:11:08.

are there already. If we do not contribute to that, can she tell me

:11:09.:11:11.

who will take responsibility for them? Well, my honourable friend

:11:12.:11:19.

makes an interesting point but does she not recognise that France, Italy

:11:20.:11:25.

and Greece are safe countries? They are not Nazi Germany, where Lord

:11:26.:11:31.

Dubs came from. He escaped from being murdered. These children and

:11:32.:11:39.

families are not under threat of murder, they are in safe countries

:11:40.:11:42.

that the governments of those countries should be respecting and

:11:43.:11:47.

dealing with, and there are all sorts of international rules to

:11:48.:11:50.

oversee that. If I can go back to the Syrian refugee camps in Jordan,

:11:51.:11:59.

the Rizwan camp there, the Asrat camp, and every building there has

:12:00.:12:04.

been provided by IKEA. Nobody gives them credit for supporting so many

:12:05.:12:12.

of these refugees, or all these solar panels, all of which have been

:12:13.:12:20.

given by IKEA from the region to help these young people. But we are

:12:21.:12:24.

providing a lot of the education. We are providing a lot of the health

:12:25.:12:30.

service. We have provided the boreholes. I will not give way

:12:31.:12:35.

because I do not have long. We have provided the boreholes to provide

:12:36.:12:38.

safe water for these people who are there. They are safe. I believe that

:12:39.:12:46.

we should be saying to people, stay there. Why would they want to come

:12:47.:12:49.

here when they can speak their own language, and they do not need to

:12:50.:12:55.

learn English? Why is it that these people are being pulled two Calais

:12:56.:12:59.

and Dunkirk and other places, which they are? And it is all right saying

:13:00.:13:06.

that they have come but they came recently. They were cleared in

:13:07.:13:10.

France, as the member opposite said. He was an agreement out there with

:13:11.:13:17.

those refugees were sorted out. More have come since then. Many more have

:13:18.:13:24.

come. I do not believe that you can say there is no pull factor. I'm

:13:25.:13:29.

sorry I will not give way because I have not to speak. I believe we

:13:30.:13:35.

should be supporting those camps and Britain has done its bit. ?2.3

:13:36.:13:41.

billion is not insignificant. I think we should be proud of the

:13:42.:13:44.

money that we put in there. I think we should be proud that we have

:13:45.:13:49.

protected those people. There is on rule of law in those camps. It is

:13:50.:13:53.

not perfect but it is not perfect here either. We do need to provide

:13:54.:14:00.

as much as we can to keep the people in the region. Most Syrians want to

:14:01.:14:06.

go home once it is safe to do so. If they come here, they will not be

:14:07.:14:10.

able to go home as easily, so I would like to say that although I

:14:11.:14:13.

understand the sentiments of what people are saying, we should stop

:14:14.:14:20.

being so sentimental and we should actually be looking at what the best

:14:21.:14:26.

thing to do for these families is, which is to keep them in the region.

:14:27.:14:29.

And that is what this government is doing. I am quite shocked to hear

:14:30.:14:40.

the last comments about sentimentality. I will start as King

:14:41.:14:45.

the House a very simple question. What must it be like to be a child

:14:46.:14:49.

refugee? To deal with sentimentality, let's try that. Can

:14:50.:14:52.

any of us actually imagine the mental and physical trauma of

:14:53.:14:57.

escaping your home country under fear of persecution. Departure from

:14:58.:15:03.

the home is in voluntary and abrupt. It involves crossing deserts,

:15:04.:15:07.

mountains and seas. It can involve being confronted with additional

:15:08.:15:10.

conflict over the journey. Going without basics like food, water and

:15:11.:15:17.

shelter. Escaping by sea brings additional hardships like the loss

:15:18.:15:20.

of other partnerships, witnessing loved ones drown, fear. -- the loss

:15:21.:15:29.

of other passengers. When they reach their final destination, the risks

:15:30.:15:34.

continued and in many places worsen. Vulnerable children are at the

:15:35.:15:38.

greatest risk of trafficking. Neglect, sexual abuse and

:15:39.:15:41.

exportation. I have heard about refugee camps being quite adequate,

:15:42.:15:52.

but in the informal refugee camps, 90% of people do not have an

:15:53.:15:56.

adequate place to sleep, like a tent, and there is little in the way

:15:57.:16:03.

of washing facilities. Many find themselves in detention centres,

:16:04.:16:06.

where they live and sleep in crowded, dirty, rat infested cells,

:16:07.:16:11.

often without mattresses, deprived of basic sanitation, hygiene and

:16:12.:16:15.

privacy. It has been reported that some boys are even turning to

:16:16.:16:18.

prostitution to keep themselves alive. If I am sentimental for

:16:19.:16:23.

bringing this up, then I am very proud to be so because these are the

:16:24.:16:27.

basic facts of what is going on in some of the worst refugee centres.

:16:28.:16:34.

And if we're talking about Greece, and them being rat infested with no

:16:35.:16:38.

mattresses, whose fault is that? That is Greece's fault and they

:16:39.:16:42.

should be helping those children. The simple fact of the matter, the

:16:43.:16:46.

world is a small place and we all belong in it. It is one human being.

:16:47.:16:52.

We need to recognise that we need to support partners abroad. Can I make

:16:53.:17:03.

it clear that we have spent ?28 million in Greece to support

:17:04.:17:06.

migrants and refugees through partners like the UNHCR and the

:17:07.:17:10.

international organisation for migration, and the Red Cross. This

:17:11.:17:13.

support has reached 250,000 people in Greece. And I thank the Minister

:17:14.:17:20.

for raising that point. I think that figure is something to be saluted.

:17:21.:17:24.

It is very important but that is not what we are discussing today. We are

:17:25.:17:29.

discussing refugees coming to this country. According to Unicef, over

:17:30.:17:32.

30,000 unaccompanied children fleeing war and persecution game by

:17:33.:17:39.

sea to greet and Italy last year. Only eight were transferred to the

:17:40.:17:43.

UK where they had family links. Only eight. Our country is simply failing

:17:44.:17:47.

to play a part in caring for the children. They are turning --

:17:48.:17:51.

returning to the Dubs amendment, last year we were told by David

:17:52.:17:55.

Cameron that a specified number of vulnerable refugee children would be

:17:56.:17:58.

given a home here as part of the Dubs amendment. Lord Dubs, who as we

:17:59.:18:07.

know was himself rescued from Nazi persecution and brought to the UK in

:18:08.:18:14.

1939, ... I'm happy to give way. I thank my my honourable friend for

:18:15.:18:17.

giving away and he has given way very generously compared to the

:18:18.:18:24.

previous speaker. Does he agree that the refusal of the government to

:18:25.:18:29.

live up to what people expected the Dubs amendment to do is not only a

:18:30.:18:31.

betrayal of the thousands of children who are unable to come here

:18:32.:18:34.

but also of the many hundreds of thousands of our own constituents

:18:35.:18:38.

who wrote to us, who campaigned, who signed a petition and expected the

:18:39.:18:41.

government to live up to the commitment they were campaigning

:18:42.:18:46.

for? They never matters made a powerful point and I agree with him

:18:47.:18:50.

completely. Some of the e-mails I had leading up to the debates today

:18:51.:18:55.

were saying at the very same thing. Given the situation, it emerges that

:18:56.:19:01.

we are only taking 350 children including 200 from Calais. We were

:19:02.:19:06.

told today by the Minister that the door is still open. Frankly, the

:19:07.:19:13.

admission is that it has been slammed shut. Even the timing of

:19:14.:19:22.

ditching the dubs scheme was appalling. The scheme was dismissed

:19:23.:19:31.

on the eve of the last parliamentary recess, which was condemned by Lord

:19:32.:19:35.

Dubs, who said that the news was buried while most eyes were focused

:19:36.:19:39.

on the Brexit debacle. In a statement, the Home Secretary

:19:40.:19:41.

claimed that the scheme created a pull factor for unaccompanied

:19:42.:19:47.

children which has been touched on several times today, increasing

:19:48.:19:50.

their risk of falling into the hand of traffickers. She said, we do not

:19:51.:19:53.

want to incentivise journeys to Europe. Why would you say that? Why

:19:54.:19:57.

on earth would you be thinking that we only have pull factor is, when we

:19:58.:20:04.

have discussed the push factors? The real message that my constituents

:20:05.:20:09.

are getting is that this is not in my backyard. In actual fact, there

:20:10.:20:14.

is no evidence for this to be the case. Relocation services provide

:20:15.:20:17.

safe and legal groups to the UK for those seeking asylum and in actual

:20:18.:20:22.

fact they disrupt the people traffickers who seek to profit from

:20:23.:20:25.

smuggling desperate people across borders. I would urge the Minister

:20:26.:20:30.

to not only allow the Dubs scheme to continue so the UK receives at least

:20:31.:20:34.

3000 unaccompanied refugees but also to include the total number of

:20:35.:20:40.

refugees under the Syrian Vulnerable Persons Scheme. Let me remind this

:20:41.:20:44.

House that Scotland is not fooled. The Scottish Government has always

:20:45.:20:47.

said that it is willing to take its fair share of refugees and has

:20:48.:20:50.

called on the UK Government time and time again to increase its efforts

:20:51.:20:54.

to respond to this humanitarian crisis. This stands is cross-party

:20:55.:20:56.

and has wide public support. The people of this country believe

:20:57.:21:12.

we can do more and clearly should be doing more to help these desperate,

:21:13.:21:17.

unaccompanied children. Pointing out the sample of my own constituency,

:21:18.:21:26.

Argyll Bute have settled dozens of Syrian refugees and their families

:21:27.:21:31.

very successfully. They are among many others stand ready to do more.

:21:32.:21:35.

I thank my honourable friend and agree. Another thing that may not be

:21:36.:21:42.

known about Scotland, we were told about as being a mongrel nation,

:21:43.:21:48.

people made up from all over the world and I completely share your

:21:49.:21:51.

point, and it actually touches on my next point which is public figures

:21:52.:21:56.

signing an open letter to the Prime Minister, branding the decision on

:21:57.:22:01.

the Dubs scheme, and I quote, the early shameful and human rights

:22:02.:22:05.

charities have been united in their condemnation. This decision to

:22:06.:22:13.

reduce access to unaccompanied refugee children, they have argued

:22:14.:22:18.

they don't have the money, but the real reason is the Government had

:22:19.:22:21.

not consulted councils broadly about the scheme in the first place. In

:22:22.:22:24.

London alone at least eight councillors signed an open letter

:22:25.:22:30.

urging Theresa May to consider the decision to take this lifeline away

:22:31.:22:35.

from refugees. Councils across the country are ready to step up. Order.

:22:36.:22:43.

Order. We will take the intervention but can I very gently say to the

:22:44.:22:48.

minister, he spoke earlier, which is not the norm in these debates and

:22:49.:22:53.

ordinarily to be deprecated, this may be an exception, he spoke at

:22:54.:22:57.

considerable length, possibly to the benefit of the house, the honourable

:22:58.:23:01.

gentleman should not now constantly intervene. This is a debate for

:23:02.:23:04.

backbench members and that must be understood. While Theresa May is

:23:05.:23:13.

closing the door to unaccompanied refugee children, she is still

:23:14.:23:17.

opening the door to Donald Trump. The potential visit to the UK by

:23:18.:23:22.

President Trump is estimated to cost over ?10 million. The most expensive

:23:23.:23:28.

state visit in history. If there is a concern about local authority

:23:29.:23:32.

funding, there is part of the solution. Cancel the exorbitant,

:23:33.:23:35.

unwanted and undeserved presidential state visit and give the money to

:23:36.:23:42.

local authorities. This will send a message to everyone that refugees

:23:43.:23:45.

are welcome in our country regardless of where or what their

:23:46.:23:48.

background is. This is a choice. Which side of history does the Prime

:23:49.:23:52.

Minister wished to be an. Does she wish to Warmley welcome refugees to

:23:53.:23:59.

the country or does she, like Trump, one to turn her back on those

:24:00.:24:02.

fleeing persecution? In his first week as president, he issued a ban

:24:03.:24:16.

on refugees into the US. Who do unaccompanied children in Greece and

:24:17.:24:19.

Italy turn to? The mental and physical health of those children is

:24:20.:24:22.

deteriorating and they are despondent and broken. This will

:24:23.:24:26.

create a vacuum that will be filled by exploitation and people

:24:27.:24:31.

smugglers, the only option the children now have. These children

:24:32.:24:40.

are treated like a statistic. If the Government turned its back, it is

:24:41.:24:45.

partly responsible when these children go missing. What must it

:24:46.:24:50.

like to be a child refugee? None of us in this chamber can come close to

:24:51.:24:54.

imagining the fear, terror, on ability, loneliness. I therefore

:24:55.:25:01.

urge the Government to continue the Dubs scheme and to do the right

:25:02.:25:06.

thing and look to increase the number of refugees overall. To do

:25:07.:25:09.

otherwise is shameful and will not be forgotten. Nicky Morgan. Thank

:25:10.:25:15.

you Romanchuk did Mr Speaker to calling me to speak in this

:25:16.:25:19.

important debate. I want to congratulate the honourable

:25:20.:25:21.

gentleman on his speed but also pay particular tribute to the honourable

:25:22.:25:25.

member forward roll south for her speech and also to my colleague and

:25:26.:25:29.

honourable friend the member for South Cambridgeshire for her work on

:25:30.:25:32.

this and her fearless attitude towards making sure that ministers

:25:33.:25:35.

are left in no doubt about the strength of her feelings on this. I

:25:36.:25:40.

also want to pay tribute to my honourable friend, the member for

:25:41.:25:43.

Torrejon West Devon who I thought spoke incredibly powerfully in this

:25:44.:25:49.

debate. Mr Speaker, I think, as we've already heard, more than

:25:50.:25:52.

30,000 unaccompanied children have arrived by the in Greece and Italy

:25:53.:25:58.

in 2016 but only eight of them were transferred to the UK for family

:25:59.:26:02.

reunification. I am told that none were transferred under the Dubs

:26:03.:26:08.

scheme. As the minister set out, the Government has been generous in

:26:09.:26:11.

supporting refugees and those seeking asylum from overseas, but

:26:12.:26:16.

the fact that his speech was a series of numbers skewed everything

:26:17.:26:23.

else. I think it tends to suggest why there is confusion and concern

:26:24.:26:28.

over this debate. There are lots of schemes, there are lots of numbers

:26:29.:26:31.

and I think the Government could help by being much clearer about how

:26:32.:26:35.

many people are coming here to the UK under which scheme and perhaps

:26:36.:26:41.

this is not the right place, the chamber, but perhaps it is something

:26:42.:26:44.

that ministers can write to colleagues about on all sides of the

:26:45.:26:47.

house and continue to keep us updated on. One of the examples of

:26:48.:26:52.

that confusion is the numbers of members of staff from the Home

:26:53.:26:57.

Office that are in Greece and Italy. If you give them one number in

:26:58.:27:01.

meetings, another number has been given today and I think it would be

:27:02.:27:03.

helpful if the house was clearer about the numbers involved. The

:27:04.:27:10.

honourable member my noble friend talked about the responsibilities of

:27:11.:27:14.

Greece and Italy. But the point is that there are hundreds of children

:27:15.:27:18.

who have a legal right to be in the UK who have had to continue their

:27:19.:27:24.

journey alone as a result of experience in further trauma

:27:25.:27:27.

including trafficking, sexual exploitation, forced labour and

:27:28.:27:30.

freezing and unsanitary conditions, because of the bureaucratic and long

:27:31.:27:34.

waiting times, often over a year, that they have experienced. But as

:27:35.:27:40.

we've also heard, in Calais, the UK did manage to deal with large

:27:41.:27:43.

numbers of children in a short period of time. That shows that when

:27:44.:27:47.

the political will is there, it is possible to make the systems work. I

:27:48.:27:52.

think the Minister has also said and I think it would again be helpful if

:27:53.:27:58.

we were clearer and minder standing is that the Dubs scheme has not been

:27:59.:28:02.

terminated but that the number has been set for this year. If that is

:28:03.:28:06.

the case and the Dubs scheme is going to continue, that is something

:28:07.:28:10.

to be welcomed but again something that should be clarified, not just

:28:11.:28:14.

for the member of -- benefit of members here but for those outside

:28:15.:28:18.

this house who showed great interest, compassion, concern and

:28:19.:28:20.

care for what is happening to the Dubs scheme. I think also we would

:28:21.:28:25.

like to call for the Government to consult on local authorities for

:28:26.:28:28.

up-to-date numbers on capacity for transfers and to agree on going

:28:29.:28:35.

capacity for looking after unaccompanied children and the

:28:36.:28:41.

Government should do it every financial year rather than just as a

:28:42.:28:45.

one-off. Thank you, I'm listening very carefully to the honourable

:28:46.:28:48.

lady. She does agree with me that the money follows the child, so the

:28:49.:28:57.

local authority gets paid for it? I didn't think that came across with

:28:58.:29:01.

the gentleman who spoke for the Scottish National Party. My

:29:02.:29:04.

honourable friend is right to say that the money does follow the

:29:05.:29:07.

child, as I understand it, there is money there. We know that local

:29:08.:29:11.

authorities are under financial pressure but there is a significant

:29:12.:29:15.

amount of money that follows each child, so local authorities should

:29:16.:29:18.

have the resources. What I was going on since to say it that it would be

:29:19.:29:22.

helped lift the Government would publish the numbers of children each

:29:23.:29:25.

local authority has already agreed to accept so that members of

:29:26.:29:30.

Parliament, communities and NGOs and other charities can work with those

:29:31.:29:36.

authorities to see if the number of places can be increased. I would

:29:37.:29:39.

urge the Minister to use members of Parliament with an interest in this.

:29:40.:29:43.

I know from my time in Government that sometimes officials are

:29:44.:29:47.

reluctant to involve members of Parliament as constituent members of

:29:48.:29:51.

Parliament but we are able to ask the questions of local councillors,

:29:52.:29:55.

of local authorities, I'm sorry the Minister is not listening at the

:29:56.:29:59.

moment but perhaps he will cut the transcript instead and really use

:30:00.:30:03.

members of Parliament to interrogate their local authorities about the

:30:04.:30:05.

capacity they are offered, whether they can offer more and what more we

:30:06.:30:10.

can do to get messages back to the Home Office. If there are queries

:30:11.:30:15.

and questions and a reluctance on the part of local authorities to get

:30:16.:30:20.

involved in the schemes. I want to pay particular tribute to the

:30:21.:30:24.

charity in my constituency who have long worked with unaccompanied

:30:25.:30:28.

asylum seeking children and refugees and I really hope that their ex-BT

:30:29.:30:32.

's and I'm sure there are many other charities like them across the

:30:33.:30:35.

country, is being used in these situations. But I fear that that is

:30:36.:30:40.

not the case and again it is up to minister to challenge the Department

:30:41.:30:44.

to say there are others in this country with expertise, let's use

:30:45.:30:48.

them to respond to those particular crisis and their need. It was

:30:49.:30:53.

mentioned again by honourable members that there are individuals

:30:54.:30:56.

in our constituencies who wanted to step forward to help and see more

:30:57.:31:00.

being done to make use of their desire to help. I also want to very

:31:01.:31:06.

quickly... Yes, of course I will. To raise again the issue of money

:31:07.:31:11.

following the placement, evidence suggests that the amount of money

:31:12.:31:15.

that follows a child is around 50%, so it's not true to say that it

:31:16.:31:20.

fully reimburses counsel for the investments they make. I den think I

:31:21.:31:23.

said it fully reimbursed them but there is money following the child.

:31:24.:31:27.

I have to say I would argue, I have had some pretty strenuous arguments

:31:28.:31:31.

with local authorities both at our local member of Parliament and as a

:31:32.:31:34.

minister and sometimes interpretation of whether there is

:31:35.:31:39.

sufficient money can be variant. But let's have that debate and work out

:31:40.:31:42.

what the numbers should be, let's not just accept what local

:31:43.:31:48.

authorities say. Mr Speaker, I just want to move on to what we can do to

:31:49.:31:52.

help Greece and Italy deal with the issue of unaccompanied children on

:31:53.:31:57.

their shores. I think there's more we can do or the Government can do

:31:58.:32:02.

to fulfil the spirit and letter of the Dubs Amendment and we need to

:32:03.:32:06.

work with the other at ease in Greece and Italy to set out clearly

:32:07.:32:10.

the Dubs scheme, the criteria, the numbers that need to be clarified so

:32:11.:32:15.

that authorities in those countries know exactly what the UK is able to

:32:16.:32:21.

offer and we have the people on the ground to do so. Mr Speaker, there

:32:22.:32:25.

is a danger in this debate and I think the honourable member for

:32:26.:32:27.

Ealing Southall talked about this when he said talking about numbers,

:32:28.:32:32.

but we're actually talking about people, we're talking about young

:32:33.:32:34.

people who have their futures ahead of them. I think a number talked

:32:35.:32:40.

about this being a smaller world, which is a challenge we know from

:32:41.:32:44.

many of our constituents, but there are people with stories at the heart

:32:45.:32:47.

of this. Firstly, Unicef contacted me today to give me an example of a

:32:48.:32:55.

16-year-old Afghan child with a degenerative bone condition who

:32:56.:32:58.

could potentially be eligible for the Dubs scheme. Doctors in Greece

:32:59.:33:03.

advised that he needs urgent treatment although the specialist

:33:04.:33:07.

treatment cannot be given until he has finished growing in Greece, but

:33:08.:33:12.

could be given with a paediatric doctor here in the UK. This

:33:13.:33:16.

highlights the point of the Dubs Amendment, helping extremely

:33:17.:33:28.

vulnerable children. Unicef are working with a boy who was forced to

:33:29.:33:33.

flee Afghanistan when his parents were killed by the Taliban for being

:33:34.:33:38.

numbers of an ethnic group. Brother has since passed away on the

:33:39.:33:42.

journey. I'm going to perhaps disagree with the member for West

:33:43.:33:46.

Devon on this because I do think there is scope in this debate to

:33:47.:33:49.

think about our moral obligations and our compassion. I know as a

:33:50.:34:00.

parent, we said let's hope the situation we are fleeing from never

:34:01.:34:06.

arises here. Of course we hope that but we have to think it might and as

:34:07.:34:12.

a parent I would hope my child is offered safety and that is what this

:34:13.:34:19.

is about. Thank you. Thank you for securing this very timely debate. Mr

:34:20.:34:23.

Speaker, today not only do I speak from a position of experience,

:34:24.:34:27.

having fostered a young Afghan refugee and also having provided

:34:28.:34:31.

support and lodgings for a number of refugees without parents, I speak as

:34:32.:34:34.

a member of the opposition and a member of the home affairs Select

:34:35.:34:38.

Committee, which only yesterday took evidence from NGOs and senior

:34:39.:34:41.

leaders working in this area. The presented was shocking and the work

:34:42.:34:47.

of the leader for Hammersmith and Fulham Council, Councillor Stephen

:34:48.:34:52.

Collins, stuck with me. He described to us his understanding of refugee

:34:53.:34:54.

camps in Europe. He described them as they colour -- the closest thing

:34:55.:35:02.

to hell for a child. Another young man told me many stories to try to

:35:03.:35:07.

get me to understand the level of desperation they experienced. I do

:35:08.:35:11.

not believe we can comprehend what that level of desperation must feel

:35:12.:35:16.

like. So for me, the way to try and understand this was to imagine what

:35:17.:35:20.

it must be like to be in the closest thing to hell what it must be like

:35:21.:35:26.

to be alone, to be away from everything you've ever known, to

:35:27.:35:30.

wonder if your family are still alive, to wonder about the things

:35:31.:35:34.

you've left behind. And still to be so sure whether there is a light at

:35:35.:35:40.

the end of this tunnel. -- so unsure whether there is a light at the end

:35:41.:35:43.

of the tunnel. How must those children feel to flee one hell for

:35:44.:35:52.

another, to experience potential rape, abuse and exploitation. All

:35:53.:35:56.

this against a backdrop of a journey that has witnessed many lose their

:35:57.:36:00.

lives before you. This is the reality, Mr Speaker. This is about

:36:01.:36:06.

people. Mr Speaker, I stand here today as an extremely blessed

:36:07.:36:09.

individual, knowing my children are safe, save from bombs, safe from

:36:10.:36:14.

being shot at, safe from being raped, safe from being exploited and

:36:15.:36:18.

trafficked. But sadly this is not the reality for all. So what has the

:36:19.:36:25.

response from a country like ours, Great Britain, been to this crisis?

:36:26.:36:33.

Our Government passing the Dubs Amendment, it is not based on -- it

:36:34.:36:39.

is based on morality. We also heard the French agencies

:36:40.:39:50.

reporting that they work from about 7900 people transferred, the point

:39:51.:39:56.

for Jordan was about 2000. We heard from others and I will talk to you

:39:57.:40:08.

about that... Happy to give way. I thank the honourable lady for giving

:40:09.:40:11.

way and she is making a very powerful speech. Does she agree with

:40:12.:40:20.

me that the language from many in the Government is completely wrong?

:40:21.:40:30.

This is an opportunity to take refugees, child refugees and develop

:40:31.:40:36.

them for the rest of the world. Thank you for that comment and I

:40:37.:40:42.

absolutely agree. The deputy executive director of Unicef had

:40:43.:40:47.

this to say when we were talking about the business model of

:40:48.:40:51.

trafficking. There is one way to destroy the business model and that

:40:52.:40:54.

is to provide safe and legal routes to children. They turn to people

:40:55.:40:58.

traffickers when they have no other option. There are many ways to

:40:59.:41:04.

prevent children being vulnerable to paid smugglers of people

:41:05.:41:10.

trafficking, when smuggling becomes unaffordable from countries of

:41:11.:41:14.

origin, which is to do with investing our developer assistance

:41:15.:41:19.

money to prevent children from being in that position in the first place.

:41:20.:41:22.

Once children have arrived in Europe we know they would only turn to

:41:23.:41:26.

traffickers when there is no system working for them and when they have

:41:27.:41:32.

lost faith and hope and been let down and not able to trust the

:41:33.:41:35.

advice they are getting and do not have any advice whatsoever. The

:41:36.:41:41.

cancellation of the Dubs scheme is a good win for the people traffickers,

:41:42.:41:44.

there is money to be made because children will try to get to their

:41:45.:41:49.

families or to places of safety in one way or another. Mr Speaker, to

:41:50.:41:56.

me what this comes down to is we have a choice. We have a choice, we

:41:57.:42:04.

have a choice to do something or to do nothing. We will never grasp or

:42:05.:42:09.

comprehend the lack of choices that these children have. And what I will

:42:10.:42:14.

say to discover governor is this. Commit, commit to what we actually

:42:15.:42:19.

pass in this house. Don't just pay lip service, don't just change

:42:20.:42:23.

direction and say this rogue run will continue as it is, because

:42:24.:42:27.

turning our backs on the 90% of children that we committed to help

:42:28.:42:33.

is beyond a disgrace. What we have done was not enough then, is not

:42:34.:42:38.

enough now, and we must do more. Thank you. Can I ask everybody to

:42:39.:42:45.

try to help each other? If people can stick to seven minutes, that's

:42:46.:42:49.

great, but it is not an obligation at this stage, there is no fixed

:42:50.:42:52.

limit, and I can understand the member who is about to speak and has

:42:53.:42:56.

had no notice may feel aggrieved and he must make his own judgment and

:42:57.:43:02.

will not be stopped -- must not be stopped. Thank you, Mr Speaker, I

:43:03.:43:06.

shall keep this to only an hour! LAUGHTER

:43:07.:43:09.

No, I appreciate you putting a time limit on it and I congratulate the

:43:10.:43:24.

honourable member for this debate. Trafficking is the area I have most

:43:25.:43:28.

expertise and would like to touch on from perhaps a different angle.

:43:29.:43:31.

There was some comment earlier on about not enough money being given

:43:32.:43:36.

to councils for unaccompanied children. I think the figures are

:43:37.:43:41.

this year that ?41,610 is given from central Government to local governor

:43:42.:43:44.

for an unaccompanied child and I think that has gone up by 20% or 30%

:43:45.:43:49.

in the last year. I don't think it's fair to say the problem, if there is

:43:50.:43:54.

one, relates to money. Can I say at the outset, Mr Speaker, and I do not

:43:55.:44:03.

in any way suggest that anybody who doesn't agree with my views doesn't

:44:04.:44:07.

care for the children come but I've been looking at this problem of

:44:08.:44:11.

vulnerable children who have been trafficked since 2005. When we had

:44:12.:44:18.

Anthony Steen in this house, he used to talk endlessly about human

:44:19.:44:21.

trafficking when nobody would even accept that it existed. And I had

:44:22.:44:28.

the great honour to follow him as chairman of the all-party group in

:44:29.:44:34.

2005. And I have to say that we lag behind looking after and dealing

:44:35.:44:45.

with human trafficking, up until the coalition Government. I would say

:44:46.:44:49.

one of his greatest legacies is what he did for human trafficking and the

:44:50.:44:54.

setting up of the Modern Slavery Act. The fact that we now have an

:44:55.:45:00.

independent commissioner who is there to challenge what the

:45:01.:45:03.

Government does. I have to say the Home Secretary at the time used to

:45:04.:45:09.

annoy me enormously because she would not get on and do what she

:45:10.:45:13.

wanted -- what we wanted. But what she did, she checked it all out, she

:45:14.:45:17.

worked it all out and then she did it to the latter. And now the Prime

:45:18.:45:21.

Minister seems to be doing that in another field that I would like to

:45:22.:45:25.

press on with. But the issue have is an exceptionally, gated. Human

:45:26.:45:32.

traffickers are the most evil people in the world. -- exceptionally

:45:33.:45:36.

complicated. They do not care for one minute about vulnerable

:45:37.:45:40.

children, they do not care about human life. They are quite happy to

:45:41.:45:48.

cut the finger off a child who is relative, the older child, the

:45:49.:45:51.

mother in fact is in this country being trafficked. They have no

:45:52.:46:01.

hesitation in executing victims in front of others to terrify them. But

:46:02.:46:09.

they worked out they can make far more money rather than gun-running

:46:10.:46:15.

from human trafficking. I've always taken the view that the best way to

:46:16.:46:20.

deal with this is to stop the trafficking rather than look after

:46:21.:46:25.

the victims afterwards. And we have worked across Europe to do this. I

:46:26.:46:29.

have travelled throughout Europe and across parts of the world to see how

:46:30.:46:36.

the best ways of dealing with this. And one of the countries that

:46:37.:46:40.

actually led before we lead on human trafficking was in fact Italy. So we

:46:41.:46:48.

have to say to ourselves, how do you stop these traffickers? Traffickers

:46:49.:46:54.

only operate because there is a demand. I think the previous Prime

:46:55.:47:01.

Minister was absolutely right when he said we look after vulnerable

:47:02.:47:05.

people close in the region to where they come from. And I think the

:47:06.:47:11.

figure is something like, for every 3000 unaccompanied children we could

:47:12.:47:16.

look after here, the equivalent money could look after 800,000.

:47:17.:47:24.

We've not got to worry about... We've got to worry about the

:47:25.:47:28.

numbers, it's incredible. If you look after them in the region, there

:47:29.:47:35.

is no need to be trafficked. The ardent, is there a safe route? There

:47:36.:47:41.

is a safe route. We're taking 20,000 or more... And that is the way to do

:47:42.:47:46.

it. Now, I can understand the feeling about unaccompanied children

:47:47.:47:56.

in Europe. The problem is, they are in safe countries. Greece, Italy and

:47:57.:48:04.

France are completely safe... I'm sorry, because of Mr Speaker, I

:48:05.:48:08.

really apologise... This is an issue we should be debating all day. But I

:48:09.:48:13.

just want to make the point, that is where the help should be, and we are

:48:14.:48:17.

putting money into other European countries should be putting money in

:48:18.:48:21.

and we should have first class and still it is in Italy and Greece. And

:48:22.:48:25.

I know in Italy they know how to do it, because they have done it.

:48:26.:48:30.

I just want to make very briefly in conclusion the one area that worries

:48:31.:48:38.

me enormously. And that was mentioned by the Minister in his

:48:39.:48:43.

opening remarks. It is children that we bring over here, thinking that

:48:44.:48:48.

they have a relative. They bring them over, they go to these people.

:48:49.:48:52.

They are not relatives, they are part of the trafficking gangs. And

:48:53.:48:57.

if they then go into prostitution, or they go into servitude, we have

:48:58.:49:02.

to deal with that. And the one thing I would ask the Minister to go away

:49:03.:49:06.

and check up on and perhaps let the House no Adelaide to stage is how

:49:07.:49:12.

many of those children that we have admitted, how many of them are still

:49:13.:49:16.

safe? So will let the House no at a later stage. Let's find out that

:49:17.:49:22.

figure before we bang on about ringing more children in. Thank you,

:49:23.:49:27.

it is a pleasure to follow the member for Wellingborough because I

:49:28.:49:29.

disagree with him passionately on his approach to this particular

:49:30.:49:34.

amendment. But I respected as commitment to tackling trafficking.

:49:35.:49:38.

And I think that echoes what my colleagues from Wirral South said.

:49:39.:49:42.

This is not a partisan issue. There are members that feel strongly about

:49:43.:49:45.

this issue on all sides of the House. I feel strongly because, and

:49:46.:49:49.

I want to quote the words of the Halton, a well-known refugee

:49:50.:49:54.

advocate in America. He said that refugees in body misery and

:49:55.:49:57.

suffering and force us to confront herbal chaos and evil. In the time

:49:58.:50:03.

allocated to me, I want to argue that they force us to confront

:50:04.:50:07.

something about ourselves and our nationhood. That is why I disagree

:50:08.:50:10.

with the approach advocated by the member for Wellingborough. In

:50:11.:50:14.

particular, I want to talk about what has happened to the Dubbs

:50:15.:50:24.

scheme says about us as a country. The member for Derbyshire talked

:50:25.:50:28.

about having no experience of visiting the European refugee camps.

:50:29.:50:32.

I spent a bit of time in Calais last summer. I have not been to Greece or

:50:33.:50:38.

Italy, I do not know what the Minister has done in terms of

:50:39.:50:42.

visits. We know that many refugees have come to Europe, and we know

:50:43.:50:47.

that there are 2500 children in Greece, 1000 of them are sleeping

:50:48.:50:51.

rough. We know there are widespread reports that the poor quality and

:50:52.:50:55.

conditions of the children and their families are living in, and just how

:50:56.:50:59.

few have been transferred here to the UK, even though they have family

:51:00.:51:05.

links here. The same is also true in Italy, where thousands of children

:51:06.:51:09.

are passing through the camps, and there are widespread reports of

:51:10.:51:12.

human rights abuses of those children in those camps, and yet

:51:13.:51:16.

again, just three have been reunited with family here. And I know this

:51:17.:51:22.

member talks about Greece and Italy and indeed France. I don't think we

:51:23.:51:25.

should forget the children who are travelling through Europe.

:51:26.:51:28.

Fundamentally, the Dubbs scheme was about children who are in Europe. In

:51:29.:51:34.

particular, what our responsibility as part of Europe, as part of the

:51:35.:51:39.

modern world, would be to those children alongside our European

:51:40.:51:44.

counterparts. This is a debate, we all taking part in it will probably

:51:45.:51:48.

get abuse on Twitter and Facebook. Sometimes we do have to advocate

:51:49.:51:52.

what may seem like an unpopular opinion. I am saddened that it is an

:51:53.:51:55.

unpopular opinion in this country that we should do our bit. But that

:51:56.:51:59.

is the debate that we are having today. When our politics might feel

:52:00.:52:05.

so futile, fundamentally children should not suffer. I agree with the

:52:06.:52:10.

member for West Devon about that. The Dubbs amendment when we passed

:52:11.:52:14.

it was the best of this House. It was the best of that agreement that

:52:15.:52:17.

no matter how unpopular the issue might seem to be on social media, in

:52:18.:52:22.

our hearts and in our heads we knew it was the right thing to do. That

:52:23.:52:26.

is why closing it prematurely is the wrong thing to do. It is the wrong

:52:27.:52:31.

thing to do because there is no evidence base that closing it

:52:32.:52:35.

prematurely will do justice to those children and their needs. There is

:52:36.:52:40.

no evidence base about Bush or indeed pull factors in this process.

:52:41.:52:44.

There is only supposition. But we all know we are not talking about a

:52:45.:52:48.

migrant crisis, we are talking about a refugee crisis, it is back because

:52:49.:52:55.

people are fleeing persecution in this world, 60 million of them, and

:52:56.:52:58.

we should call it a refugee crisis, not pretending it is the same as

:52:59.:53:02.

people coming here wanting to work. Above all, we should ask ourselves

:53:03.:53:06.

why when in committee this Government wrote down proposals to

:53:07.:53:09.

treat these jobs and by the UN Convention on the rights of the

:53:10.:53:15.

child, closing the Dubbs scheme made us take us forward in our moral

:53:16.:53:18.

purpose rather than backwards, it did not. The member for Mid

:53:19.:53:22.

Derbyshire talks about other countries and their

:53:23.:53:24.

responsibilities, she is right, I agree with her. France, Germany,

:53:25.:53:28.

Italy should all be doing more. Because one country is not doing

:53:29.:53:31.

enough to does not absolve us are doing the bit that we could do, that

:53:32.:53:35.

is the problem. How can we looked Turkey in the eye when they are

:53:36.:53:40.

taking 2.8 million Syrian refugees, and yet only 3000 have come to

:53:41.:53:47.

Europe in the last year alone. Above all, the promise of Dubbs is what we

:53:48.:53:51.

should speak up for. Because we all over children got on buses to go to

:53:52.:53:53.

centres on a promise and a pledge from the British authorities to

:53:54.:53:58.

treat them barely. Not to then find two days later sneaked out a Home

:53:59.:54:01.

Office guidelines saying that some of them would not even be considered

:54:02.:54:05.

at all because of their nationality, not because of their needs. To see

:54:06.:54:08.

them languishing in Dunkirk because they have lost all hope, that is not

:54:09.:54:13.

British. That is not a popular opinion that we should uphold. So

:54:14.:54:18.

why will join with other members of this House in tabling amendments to

:54:19.:54:21.

the children and social work bill to try and reopen the scheme, to try to

:54:22.:54:25.

hold this Government to account to what we promised we would do one

:54:26.:54:29.

year ago. To not let the Minister get away with claiming that it was

:54:30.:54:32.

in the small print that we would leave these children languishing in

:54:33.:54:35.

the mud, that we would abandon children in Italy and in Greece. To

:54:36.:54:39.

not listen to the French authorities when they say, no, we think this

:54:40.:54:44.

scheme should continue, or indeed the UK is trafficking commissioner,

:54:45.:54:48.

who confirmed that he knows of cases that the Dubbs case Amendment has

:54:49.:54:52.

helped. Children who were being exploited to our now safe. Because

:54:53.:54:55.

we cannot be confident that there are not more of those children. Just

:54:56.:54:59.

as we cannot be confident there a lot more local authorities who will

:55:00.:55:03.

step up to the plate. Indeed, when I spoke to my own local authority

:55:04.:55:07.

today, I was proud of the work that they are doing to take refugees and

:55:08.:55:11.

their commitment to work with other local authorities. Minister, we have

:55:12.:55:14.

to confront the fact that our nation has to do its bit alongside other

:55:15.:55:21.

European nations. And we can either be followers will lead us in that

:55:22.:55:25.

process. Now, whatever the membership -- the member for Mid

:55:26.:55:29.

Derbyshire has to tell herself to sleep at night, let us not decry

:55:30.:55:34.

these children but stand up for them. That is what will keep them

:55:35.:55:38.

safe and do justice to this House and this country. Heidi Alexander I

:55:39.:55:42.

think you, Mr Speaker. I would like if I made you take us back. In April

:55:43.:55:50.

last year, in response to the national outcry following the

:55:51.:55:53.

dreadful and unforgettable image of poor little Aylan Kurdi washed up so

:55:54.:55:59.

limply on the beach, this Government made a commitment in legislation to

:56:00.:56:03.

help some of the thousands of unaccompanied children who had

:56:04.:56:06.

escaped persecution and water and made it European shores. The Dubbs

:56:07.:56:10.

legislation was a complimentary but critically unique part of our

:56:11.:56:14.

response to the humanitarian crisis, that was sweeping across Europe. As

:56:15.:56:17.

a continent, we must acknowledge that we did not responds swiftly

:56:18.:56:24.

enough to this mass migration. Millions of people made perilous

:56:25.:56:28.

journeys, but it means that they are here now. I remember visiting the

:56:29.:56:32.

Greek island of Lesbos in January with Mike honourable friend for

:56:33.:56:37.

Eastbourne last year. And weeping with disbelief at the hundreds and

:56:38.:56:41.

hundreds of abandoned life jackets. Yours for 20 euros. Courtesy of your

:56:42.:56:47.

friendly local traffic. Fakes, of course. I remember na vely

:56:48.:56:53.

commenting that some of them were branded, at least they were real.

:56:54.:56:58.

Oh, no, they are still fake. They just offer premium because they look

:56:59.:57:01.

more authentic. What kind of parallel universe had I landed in?

:57:02.:57:05.

At that time, anywhere between 3000 and 9000 of the refugees were

:57:06.:57:10.

arriving daily in Greece, still financially on its knees, it was in

:57:11.:57:14.

chaos. Despite the overwhelming challenge, the Greek people could

:57:15.:57:19.

not have been more hospitable. Local restauranteurs delivering food to

:57:20.:57:21.

the queues of very cold but patient refugees. I'll never forget the

:57:22.:57:26.

sight of a young mother, using a hand to sweep of the dirt off her

:57:27.:57:32.

blanket but her family were sitting on. Just a few carrier bags and her

:57:33.:57:36.

blanket, that was all she had in the world, but it was her home and she

:57:37.:57:39.

was keeping it clean. A woman and her baby, a little pink lipstick on

:57:40.:57:45.

her lips, dirty face and dirty clothes but she was still very

:57:46.:57:49.

proudly still a woman. And although I sought similar images to Calais in

:57:50.:57:55.

the spring and summer, I'm ashamed to say that because of the euphoria

:57:56.:57:59.

of refugees finally being transferred to save centres, those

:58:00.:58:03.

images for me had started to fade, and I'm ashamed. The media has been

:58:04.:58:07.

very quick to replace those images with all things Brexit and Trump.

:58:08.:58:11.

When I look back at the kick is a bright day of camp demolition

:58:12.:58:14.

approached, our Government rose abruptly. And worked hand-in-hand

:58:15.:58:18.

with the French authorities to identify and processed at speed

:58:19.:58:23.

children with family reunification right or those who might be suitable

:58:24.:58:27.

for Dubbs. Mistakes were made, and it is undeniable that some of the

:58:28.:58:31.

age assessments were wrong. But that is a theatre of the Russian and

:58:32.:58:34.

urgency of the situation, not a reason to change our policy -- that

:58:35.:58:37.

is a symptom of the rush and urgency. We took 200 Dubbs children

:58:38.:58:44.

from France. A great start. Why oh why are we here today to debate the

:58:45.:58:52.

Government's decision. I am so proud of the 2.3 billion commitment to aid

:58:53.:58:56.

in the region and the 23,000 refugees we have welcomed from their

:58:57.:59:00.

too. But the glow of pride in those other commitments should not as all

:59:01.:59:05.

so brightly that it disguises the separate but very real commitment we

:59:06.:59:11.

made in Dubbs. Let's not be blinded. Dubbs was the final jigsaw piece in

:59:12.:59:16.

refugee response, offering sanctuary to children who had lost everything

:59:17.:59:20.

and were already in Europe. We were sensible, we wisely set a cut-off

:59:21.:59:24.

date so the offer would only extend to those who had come before the

:59:25.:59:28.

turkey- EU deal in March. And we all agreed that this was critical to

:59:29.:59:33.

ensure a swell of new did not come. Crude though it was, the Turkey deal

:59:34.:59:38.

worked and floated a Greek islands reduced significantly. But Greece

:59:39.:59:41.

could not and still cannot cope with the level of those who had already

:59:42.:59:46.

arrived. Dubbs recognised this, and enshrined in law a promise to ease

:59:47.:59:51.

the burden on and sanctuary to children who are born rebel. Those

:59:52.:59:55.

children are no less honourable now, so why are we turning our backs on

:59:56.:59:59.

them? Ministers will say they are worried about the poll factor.

:00:00.:00:04.

Firstly, we have this debate when we debated Dubbs last year, and we

:00:05.:00:08.

accept the evidence of the NGOs and their expertise that this would not

:00:09.:00:13.

exacerbate a poll. Clearly, the opposite is true. Having finally

:00:14.:00:17.

encouraged children to trust volunteers and authorities and coax

:00:18.:00:20.

them on those coaches to go to the centres in Calais, we now propose to

:00:21.:00:26.

whip the system away from them. When you cannot trust western governments

:00:27.:00:29.

whose welcoming arms you have sought, is it any surprise that the

:00:30.:00:33.

smiling face of the traffic is the only place left to turn? I believe

:00:34.:00:39.

opening the Dubbs scheme and then shutting it so rapidly will actually

:00:40.:00:44.

cause more harm, and a greater pull through southern Europe towards

:00:45.:00:47.

Calais and then to our shores. In Dunkirk on Monday this week, the

:00:48.:00:52.

member for Pontefract and Castleford and I heard first-hand from

:00:53.:00:54.

youngsters who had absconded from the safety of those regional centres

:00:55.:00:57.

because they heard about the imminent closure of the scheme.

:00:58.:01:01.

Desperation clouds judgment and makes for poor choices. Choices that

:01:02.:01:06.

leads straight into the hands of traffickers and prostitution.

:01:07.:01:12.

Closing Dubbs so abruptly will give the traffic is the greatest

:01:13.:01:15.

promotional opportunity they could ever ask for. We have never invested

:01:16.:01:22.

fully in a structured approach to Dublin processing in Europe, with

:01:23.:01:26.

scant Home Office personnel available in France, and only one

:01:27.:01:29.

single person in Greece and another in Italy. Refugees showed us their

:01:30.:01:34.

paperwork on Monday. Nothing at all in writing from the Home Office is

:01:35.:01:38.

given to them. Basic Asylum rights information is provided in French,

:01:39.:01:42.

despite the very first item in the document saying that that person

:01:43.:01:45.

cannot speak French. We can and we must do better than this. Putting

:01:46.:01:50.

Dubbs to one side, Dublin legislation is a proactive duty

:01:51.:01:54.

already incumbent upon us to assist with family reunification. I am

:01:55.:01:57.

pleased the Government has recently agreed to read but the case work of

:01:58.:02:02.

children in France who were turned down on the first attempt. -- review

:02:03.:02:06.

the case work. We need to hear about an improved process with dedicated

:02:07.:02:11.

Home Office staff, translators and the commissioning organisations like

:02:12.:02:14.

safe passage and the Red Cross who know what they are doing. So far it

:02:15.:02:18.

has taken, as we have heard, on average ten months to transfer just

:02:19.:02:21.

nine children from Greece and two from Italy, and I'm ashamed to say

:02:22.:02:28.

not a single one under Dubbs. My visit to Dunkirk on Monday, as I

:02:29.:02:32.

told the House, so depressed me. It was a horrid repetition of

:02:33.:02:35.

everything I had seen in Calais in the summer. I don't want us to feed

:02:36.:02:40.

that vicious cycle. I feel it is sensible to restrict our activities

:02:41.:02:46.

in France to establishing a high performing Dublin system. 30,000

:02:47.:02:49.

unaccompanied children arrived in Greece and Italy last year. 1000 of

:02:50.:02:53.

them went in shelters, and the same number sleep on the streets, plus

:02:54.:02:58.

thousands more in Italy. Pommy, it is Greece and Italy where we should

:02:59.:03:02.

focus our dubs attention -- for me. I want to focus on the capacity of

:03:03.:03:07.

local authorities, that is the main basis for the Government's argument.

:03:08.:03:11.

They say they consulted and local authorities can only take 150 more.

:03:12.:03:16.

Even as I was writing this speech last night, I had a text message

:03:17.:03:19.

from an old St Albans councillor friend, texted been to say that his

:03:20.:03:24.

council had just backed a motion to uphold the Dubbs Amendment. All

:03:25.:03:27.

across the country, have you noticed, councils are stepping

:03:28.:03:31.

forward to say that they can do more. Councillor David Somers of the

:03:32.:03:37.

Local Government Association told the Home Affairs Select Committee

:03:38.:03:39.

just yesterday that only 20 councils across the UK have met their 0.07%

:03:40.:03:43.

target. Lewisham has offered 23 places, but so far only been sent

:03:44.:03:48.

one child. Birmingham could take 79 more, Bristol ten more, my own

:03:49.:03:53.

Cambridge, currently at 61, hopes to reach its full quote of 93. Hammers

:03:54.:03:57.

with an full-on, after visiting the Calais camp at their offer to the

:03:58.:04:03.

Home Office for an additional 15 beyond their commitment --

:04:04.:04:05.

Hammersmith and Fulham. They have 13 spaces filled have been asking the

:04:06.:04:12.

Home Office repeatedly for more, but have experienced resistance from

:04:13.:04:16.

Home Office officials. This evidence suggests a lack of capacity has not

:04:17.:04:21.

been proven. As we know, it will be challenged in the courts. Evidence I

:04:22.:04:25.

have taken from the LGA suggests that councils were written to once.

:04:26.:04:29.

All councils, regardless of whether they were district, unity or county,

:04:30.:04:34.

there have been no follow-up. Leadership is needed like never

:04:35.:04:38.

before. What kind of country we? What kind of Government we? The

:04:39.:04:43.

country I know and love is outward looking, it is proud and welcoming,

:04:44.:04:48.

and above all it is sharing. We have talked a lot recently about being a

:04:49.:04:52.

friend to Europe post-Brexit. I'll tell you what, actions speak louder

:04:53.:04:57.

than words. Let's step up, by that partner, that our European

:04:58.:05:02.

neighbours need. We must carry on to our local authorities and ask again

:05:03.:05:07.

and again. This humanitarian crisis will not end neatly at the end of

:05:08.:05:12.

this financial year, neither must our compassion. If we are

:05:13.:05:15.

unsuccessful today, I have already tabled an amendment to the

:05:16.:05:18.

children's social welfare bill, which will return soon. There is

:05:19.:05:21.

substantial cross-party support behind this debate. As long as

:05:22.:05:25.

Europe is under pressure to find homes for the most honourable

:05:26.:05:28.

casualties of war and persecution, we must keep asking what more can we

:05:29.:05:39.

do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm very keen to speak from an Ulster

:05:40.:05:45.

Unionists point of view, but may I congratulate the members who have

:05:46.:05:49.

raised the matter today. I very much agree with the points that were

:05:50.:05:54.

made. The points made by the previous Speaker. I'm going to be

:05:55.:06:00.

shot. I was very keen -- I'm going to be sure. I was keen to learn how

:06:01.:06:06.

much the Government was doing, and pleased to see it was ?2.3 billion.

:06:07.:06:12.

Very pleased to be supporting the vulnerable person resettlement

:06:13.:06:15.

programme. And to know that there were 4500 coming to the UK with 300

:06:16.:06:21.

coming to Northern Ireland. And the Ulster Unionists are clear that we

:06:22.:06:26.

in Northern Ireland must do our bit. And we need to be more included in

:06:27.:06:30.

it. I know we are in the middle of elections at the moment. But we need

:06:31.:06:33.

to be involved to make sure that we are sharing. I was disappointed,

:06:34.:06:45.

having listened to why we needn't have supported things here because

:06:46.:06:49.

the Dubbs Amendment was coming through, to then find it being

:06:50.:06:52.

dropped. And reading through, thinking of our British values and

:06:53.:06:56.

looking after people and helping, it should have come back to the House

:06:57.:07:01.

for a debate. We have touched on it a bit today. So that we can all

:07:02.:07:04.

learn more about trafficking and how we can help people. All I have seen

:07:05.:07:08.

in my brief time here are the camps in Kurdistan in northern Iraq, and

:07:09.:07:13.

impressed by how they run but appalled by the fact that they are

:07:14.:07:16.

people who have years before they get back to their homes, there was a

:07:17.:07:22.

tent for a family of six. Most families were eight or 12.

:07:23.:07:25.

Incredibly well looked after, but they showed as the same thing, we

:07:26.:07:30.

have got to come as a country, be compassionate. I feel that by

:07:31.:07:33.

dropping the Dubbs recommend went, we have not done what we promised

:07:34.:07:42.

and we must do it. We have got to have compassion, we have got to be

:07:43.:07:45.

helping people and keep working at it. Let's do what we should as

:07:46.:07:52.

British people and help look after everyone else. Thank you. Thank you,

:07:53.:07:59.

Mr Speaker. I was supposed to take part in this debate, congratulations

:08:00.:08:02.

in securing it. At the heart of the debate is the key question, have we

:08:03.:08:07.

done enough for child refugees? Have we show our compassion? And the

:08:08.:08:11.

answer now, and always, is and will be, no, not yet. It's not about

:08:12.:08:21.

saying, well, we're just going to do this amount to comply with our

:08:22.:08:24.

interpretation of the law and see if that's enough and move on. It's

:08:25.:08:28.

about wanting to do the maximum for those most vulnerable, those

:08:29.:08:32.

refugees who need our support. That can happen in all manners of ways,

:08:33.:08:38.

not just through compliance or Dublin or aid obligations or

:08:39.:08:42.

resettlement. Indeed, the care for those who come irregularly on to our

:08:43.:08:49.

shores. In all manner of ways we can show our compassion. The Home

:08:50.:08:54.

Secretary was right when in October in the party conference speech,

:08:55.:08:58.

which perhaps didn't get much publicity, she said, compassion has

:08:59.:09:01.

no borders. She's right, compassion has no borders. That is something we

:09:02.:09:05.

will hold onto. Compassion is not the preserve of any one political

:09:06.:09:09.

party, it is not the preserve of backbenchers or indeed ministers. I

:09:10.:09:12.

understand the difficult job there is to do on the complexities. We all

:09:13.:09:16.

care about these honourable people. It is how we can practically deliver

:09:17.:09:20.

this. The Government has a good record, everyone has said around the

:09:21.:09:25.

2.3 billion international aid effort, about the 8000 unaccompanied

:09:26.:09:29.

children that have come through last year that have been cared for. Many

:09:30.:09:37.

of those indeed through the VPR Syrians scheme. But what I

:09:38.:09:39.

particularly commend the Government for is that they haven't focused on

:09:40.:09:43.

the numbers. They have been focused on the issues of safety and

:09:44.:09:46.

vulnerability. Whether that is indeed in the UK, whether it is the

:09:47.:09:53.

value for our pound goes well in Syria, the Middle East, the North

:09:54.:09:57.

African region, or indeed in Europe as well. That is where the focus has

:09:58.:10:01.

been. That is why every time and cross-party pressure the Government

:10:02.:10:05.

has moved from the 200 VPR scheme to a 20,000 VPR scheme. And that was

:10:06.:10:12.

despite some pushback from some people, it moved because we looked.

:10:13.:10:16.

We are not going to pick a number, we are looking at how far we can go.

:10:17.:10:20.

We are opening the door to look at how we can respond to issues of

:10:21.:10:24.

vulnerability and safety. That is why I welcome the Government's Conte

:10:25.:10:28.

approach. We are on a journey, we don't know what will happen next. --

:10:29.:10:33.

continued approach. We have really dish up role. An international

:10:34.:10:37.

leadership role, I do want to touch on it briefly. -- we have a

:10:38.:10:46.

leadership role. I think we must keep the door open to the refugee

:10:47.:10:49.

crisis. It is why I welcomed last April and May how the Government

:10:50.:10:51.

responded to the call from the public and elsewhere, 3000 child

:10:52.:10:55.

refugees. What was our response to that particular 3000 number? The

:10:56.:10:59.

charities recognised, it was an arbitrary number but it mobilised

:11:00.:11:02.

as, quite rightly, wanted the Government to do more. The

:11:03.:11:05.

Government responded and said, yes, we will take 3000 more vulnerable

:11:06.:11:09.

children. We will take them from the Middle East, North Africa region.

:11:10.:11:14.

That is the largest resettlement avid, the largest internationally

:11:15.:11:16.

that focuses on children and those at risk. The Government wanted to go

:11:17.:11:24.

further. What the Government did was respond to the very wonderful,

:11:25.:11:27.

credible campaign, led by Lord dubs, that led eventually to the section

:11:28.:11:33.

67 Immigration Act. The focus of response was commendable because it

:11:34.:11:36.

was practical. It recognised that the issue of numbers when it comes

:11:37.:11:39.

to those in Europe is not the best way to approach things. It can in

:11:40.:11:44.

refugee camps particularly, the police and North African region,

:11:45.:11:47.

when we are in Europe it is, skated in partnership with our French and

:11:48.:11:52.

Italian and Greek neighbours. It is a complicated issue, and it has to

:11:53.:11:56.

be worked practically with them and also with local authorities will

:11:57.:11:59.

stop that is why I supported very much when we ended up with a revised

:12:00.:12:01.

amendment. It is a practical approach and it is

:12:02.:12:09.

what the Prime Minister, when the Prime Minister said, the previous

:12:10.:12:15.

Prime Minister said that the scheme is about those at risk of

:12:16.:12:20.

trafficking or exploitation and they will be prioritised for resettlement

:12:21.:12:24.

and existing family reunion routes will be accelerated. He said the

:12:25.:12:26.

government was not putting a fixed number of arrivals deliberately but

:12:27.:12:30.

we will work with local authorities to determine how many children would

:12:31.:12:35.

be resettled. I took that to be a practical way of moving is forward.

:12:36.:12:40.

I did not expect those numbers to be 350 and I don't think that was what

:12:41.:12:47.

was in any members of Parliament's minds. It was practical and that is

:12:48.:12:54.

why the Home Secretary, in writing to honourable friends, said the

:12:55.:12:59.

scheme has not closed as reported by some, we were obliged by the

:13:00.:13:02.

immigration act to put a specific member on children we would take

:13:03.:13:05.

based on consultation with local authorities about their capacity and

:13:06.:13:08.

this is the number we have published and we will be working with --

:13:09.:13:13.

increase, Italy and France to transfer further children. We are

:13:14.:13:16.

clear that the hide these numbers are children and it is vital we get

:13:17.:13:21.

the balance right between enabling eligible children to come to the UK

:13:22.:13:24.

as quickly as possible and ensuring local authorities have the capacity

:13:25.:13:27.

to host them and provide them with the support they need. Mike Leigh

:13:28.:13:32.

interpretation of that and the reality is that the government can

:13:33.:13:35.

have whatever interpretation they want, we have is a matter of

:13:36.:13:39.

stature, with no revision, no sunset clause, notes extra bill come into

:13:40.:13:43.

Parliament saying it doesn't apply any more, the amendment still stands

:13:44.:13:51.

but let's call it the Cameron scheme, that had a particular

:13:52.:13:55.

cut-off, the 20th of March 2006 but the government is at liberty to

:13:56.:14:00.

change that but what is in statute is our response blitzed to work with

:14:01.:14:03.

local authorities to come up with the right figure. The government is

:14:04.:14:08.

still open, it had its own time at that needs to be reset and it is

:14:09.:14:13.

open and needs to go wider, maybe wider than the commitment which is

:14:14.:14:19.

statutory into an offering places across local authorities. That would

:14:20.:14:26.

offer 4000 more spaces. I would urge the government to go back as the

:14:27.:14:31.

independent commission has said. He asked the government, and his letter

:14:32.:14:38.

says this clearly, that he would welcome greater transparency on the

:14:39.:14:42.

crucial issue of capacity will stop he would encourage the government to

:14:43.:14:45.

go back and show the door could be wide open and the urges the

:14:46.:14:48.

government to ensure that when it goes and focuses in terms of Greece

:14:49.:14:56.

and Italy, that it publishes of the commissioner said, breadth of

:14:57.:14:58.

criteria on all forms of modern slavery. When one looks in Italy, it

:14:59.:15:07.

is said that there are 3000 unaccompanied Nigerian children who

:15:08.:15:11.

arrived last year. Most of them have already been victims of trafficking.

:15:12.:15:17.

And where is their destination? It is to the UK. We are taking a lead

:15:18.:15:21.

in terms of modern slavery, the Prime Minister is taking a lead, she

:15:22.:15:26.

wanted to find this out. We have a responsibility to these women and

:15:27.:15:30.

children and I want to see the government taking those

:15:31.:15:32.

responsibilities seriously, is keeping the Dubs amendment open and

:15:33.:15:38.

resetting in Italy where the turkey deal has no relevance and ensure it

:15:39.:15:42.

is open to take the responsibility to keep on that part of

:15:43.:15:47.

vulnerability and safety for these child refugees. Mr Speaker, it is

:15:48.:15:51.

also a pleasure to take part in this important debate. I will vote last

:15:52.:15:55.

year on the Dubs amendment was one of my biggest tests in parliament

:15:56.:15:59.

since the election will stop on the morning of the vote as I constructed

:16:00.:16:03.

and drafted and published my position on why I was going to be

:16:04.:16:07.

supporting the government on the issue yet sitting through the whole

:16:08.:16:11.

of the actual debate listening to the arguments put forward by members

:16:12.:16:15.

from both sides of the house, I changed my mind. I ended up voting

:16:16.:16:20.

with the amendments, such is the power of this place, much to the

:16:21.:16:24.

frustration, I appreciate, the government whips. Although the

:16:25.:16:28.

government won the boat that evening, shortly afterwards his

:16:29.:16:31.

tells us that they've changed their position and accept that the amended

:16:32.:16:35.

version of the Dubs amendment -- after the vote. We have now seen the

:16:36.:16:42.

announcement that we will take 150 more children under the Dubs

:16:43.:16:45.

amendment. I must say how sad and disappointed I was to hear this. The

:16:46.:16:50.

government does have a very proud record when it comes to the response

:16:51.:16:55.

to the events in Syria and the wider region. We have pledged over ?2.3

:16:56.:17:00.

billion in aid, the largest ever humanitarian response to a single

:17:01.:17:04.

crisis, second only to the US. And thanks to the good will of the

:17:05.:17:07.

British people and indeed local authorities up and down the country

:17:08.:17:11.

in the last year alone we have provided refuge and other forms of

:17:12.:17:16.

leave to more than 8000 children. Yet this doesn't mean we can ignore

:17:17.:17:22.

the crisis currently happening in Italy in Greece, across Europe, we

:17:23.:17:28.

cannot say job done, pull up the drawbridge on Dubs and leave

:17:29.:17:31.

vulnerable children at risk on the continent. There are two main that

:17:32.:17:35.

have been put forward by those keen for the UK to do less to help. The

:17:36.:17:40.

first is that local authorities do not have the capacity for more

:17:41.:17:45.

children. Even if this is the case, it is no reason not to re-consult

:17:46.:17:48.

with them regularly and allow them to take in children when they can.

:17:49.:17:52.

As I understand it, the last consultation took in June 2016. We

:17:53.:17:58.

all know the Dubs amendment did not specify numbers but it did mandate

:17:59.:18:02.

the government to consult with local authorities as to their capacity to

:18:03.:18:06.

support unaccompanied child refugees. Yet across the UK there

:18:07.:18:13.

are 217 upper tier and unitary local authorities all with responsibility

:18:14.:18:17.

for children's services. The 400 Dubs children don't even equipped to

:18:18.:18:23.

two unaccompanied children per council so I would challenge anyone

:18:24.:18:26.

making bids claimed that it reflect actual capacity. The second argument

:18:27.:18:32.

is that this scheme, or schemes like it can act as a pull factor for

:18:33.:18:38.

children intent on coming to the UK -- the United Kingdom. The

:18:39.:18:45.

anti-slavery Commissioner published a statement on these issues this

:18:46.:18:50.

afternoon, saying that he felt the Dubs amendment had had exactly the

:18:51.:18:55.

opposite effect of being a pull factor and had actually meant that

:18:56.:18:59.

fewer people were pulled to the UK by the traffickers. I think the

:19:00.:19:05.

Honourable lady for her intervention and I will come onto this exact

:19:06.:19:09.

point because I agree. I think focusing on the pull factor of 20 --

:19:10.:19:15.

ignores the power of push factors. These children are not economic

:19:16.:19:18.

migrants, seeking to come to the UK with the hope of making more money,

:19:19.:19:24.

they are refugees fleeing conflict, persecution, poverty, fear and

:19:25.:19:28.

desperation, putting themselves in grave danger. Because there is a

:19:29.:19:33.

very small chance that a safer life exists across the Mediterranean. We

:19:34.:19:36.

have heard this factor mentioned a lot in the debate last year on the

:19:37.:19:41.

Dubs amendment but the newest incarnation of the argument, that

:19:42.:19:44.

children move within Europe in the hope of being brought to Britain, in

:19:45.:19:48.

my view it simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. When the government

:19:49.:19:52.

introduced the scheme, they introduced a cut-off date of the

:19:53.:19:56.

20th of March and that meant it only applied to children already in

:19:57.:19:59.

Europe so how could it possibly serve as an incentive or a pull

:20:00.:20:04.

factor? As I mentioned, there has been remarkable work by the

:20:05.:20:16.

Department for International Development in the countries

:20:17.:20:18.

surrounding Syria and in the war zones around the world. We know that

:20:19.:20:20.

that has played an important role in discouraging people from travelling

:20:21.:20:22.

to Europe. Most importantly, safe and legal routes to the UK encourage

:20:23.:20:25.

children to engage with the local authorities and this is the point,

:20:26.:20:28.

rather than throwing in their lot with people traffickers in the hope

:20:29.:20:33.

of being smuggled into the UK. I'm told, and I expect this is the point

:20:34.:20:37.

she is making, that there is an total evidence, and I have heard it

:20:38.:20:40.

from NGOs and charities, that suggest that when children are

:20:41.:20:44.

transferred from the Calais Campbell! Jungle to the UK,

:20:45.:20:49.

spontaneous arrivals by legal means almost simply stopped -- the Calais

:20:50.:20:59.

Jungle. I would suggest that it is better that scared and vulnerable

:21:00.:21:02.

children with a shocking lack of information as to their rights are

:21:03.:21:06.

encouraged to engage with the formal system in the hope of safe transfer

:21:07.:21:09.

rather than risking their lives. I'm concerned that if we reduce those

:21:10.:21:14.

formal paths to a silent in the UK, children will be just playing into

:21:15.:21:18.

the hands of -- we will be playing into the hands of people smugglers.

:21:19.:21:25.

Talking to charities that have worked with children in the camps of

:21:26.:21:30.

northern France, there are countless stories of children who, hearing

:21:31.:21:34.

they will not be relocated to the UK, have returned from safe

:21:35.:21:40.

children's centres to the squalor of camps like that outside Dunkirk, in

:21:41.:21:45.

order to find illicit routes into Britain. Safe location schemes mean

:21:46.:21:49.

that the Home Office can assess whether it is in the best interests

:21:50.:21:54.

of the child to be brought here and to ensure that the most vulnerable,

:21:55.:21:58.

or those with a family in the UK, are taken to safety, and encourage

:21:59.:22:03.

others to claim asylum in France. The Dubs amendment's pack -- passage

:22:04.:22:08.

into legislation marked an acknowledgement that we have a duty

:22:09.:22:11.

to do better than this. We can do better than this, and I urge the

:22:12.:22:15.

Government to reconsider, to keep the scheme open and to continue to

:22:16.:22:19.

consult with local authorities. We cannot let it end here. Thank you,

:22:20.:22:27.

Mr Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to speak in this

:22:28.:22:31.

important debate this afternoon and commend the member for Wirral South

:22:32.:22:33.

for securing it this afternoon. Three years ago I had the

:22:34.:22:42.

opportunity to go to Turkey to visit a refugee camp very close to the

:22:43.:22:46.

Syrian border. What struck me then was not just the size of the camp at

:22:47.:22:51.

that this felt like the start of something much longer and much more

:22:52.:22:58.

protracted. And I recall those talks and chats with families who all they

:22:59.:23:02.

wanted to do, Mr Speaker, was get back to their home in Syria. And

:23:03.:23:06.

then, three years later, last year, as a member of the IGC select

:23:07.:23:11.

committee, with my friend the honourable member for Mid

:23:12.:23:16.

Derbyshire, I went to Jordan and Lebanon, and to visit refugees and

:23:17.:23:21.

some of the host communities. And again, I was struck by the size of

:23:22.:23:26.

those camps, the vulnerability of those people, but also the sheer

:23:27.:23:30.

amount of work that was going in to support them, and rightly so, and

:23:31.:23:33.

the huge amount of effort that is put into that by the host

:23:34.:23:38.

communities, host countries and the International donors, too. I want to

:23:39.:23:44.

touch firstly on the UK response, therefore, to the Syrian crisis, in

:23:45.:23:48.

broad terms, and the migration crisis, a response which I think we

:23:49.:23:52.

and the British people should be proud of, given the scale of the

:23:53.:23:57.

challenge. To date, DFI D has allocated ?2.3 billion in response

:23:58.:24:03.

to the Syria crisis. The UK is the second largest bilateral donor to

:24:04.:24:06.

the humanitarian response in Syria since it began in 2012, and one of

:24:07.:24:11.

the few EU countries to commit to 0.7%. Between February 2012 and

:24:12.:24:21.

August 2016, figures show that in Syria and the region, UKAEA has

:24:22.:24:26.

included providing over 21 million individual monthly rations, in

:24:27.:24:31.

excess of 6.5 million relief packages, over 6 million vaccines,

:24:32.:24:36.

plus help -- health support and grants and vouchers. And that is not

:24:37.:24:40.

it. Between October 2005 and December 2016, the UK has given

:24:41.:24:47.

support to refugees and migrants during the Mediterranean crisis,

:24:48.:24:50.

many not from Syria but from other countries which has included meals

:24:51.:24:54.

to refugees in migrant camps in Greece and Serbia, included relief

:24:55.:25:00.

items such as blankets, temporary beds, hygiene kits to refugees and

:25:01.:25:05.

migrants coming across Europe, as well as health care, emergency first

:25:06.:25:09.

aid, protection and prevention is, legal support and assistance. I am

:25:10.:25:17.

proud of all the work that goes on, and the staff that work often in

:25:18.:25:23.

very difficult situations, and the international NGO community. But it

:25:24.:25:26.

is vital in this approach that we have a balanced manner, targeting

:25:27.:25:32.

support to help the most vulnerable, but also working closely with local

:25:33.:25:36.

authorities. Because after all, Mr Speaker, they are ultimately those

:25:37.:25:42.

who resettle and provide a home and, crucially, the support for these

:25:43.:25:44.

vulnerable individuals. As we often hear, we know of the pressures that

:25:45.:25:50.

local authorities are under. I looked up some figures on foster

:25:51.:25:55.

families and found that we do a lot of work in government to encourage

:25:56.:25:59.

families to come forward and foster children, but we still need to do

:26:00.:26:03.

more. And that is an existing challenge that we are ready face.

:26:04.:26:07.

This government agreed to resettle 20,000 Syrians during the course of

:26:08.:26:13.

this Parliament. To settle 3000 children and their families from the

:26:14.:26:17.

wider region. And in the UK we have also granted asylum, or another form

:26:18.:26:23.

of leave, to over 8000 children. Our resettlement programme is the

:26:24.:26:29.

biggest in Europe. And the Government has also transferred over

:26:30.:26:32.

900 children from Europe, including more than 750 from France. It's my

:26:33.:26:38.

belief, Mr Speaker, that this is crucial work, and work that the

:26:39.:26:41.

Government is dedicated to doing and committed to doing and to

:26:42.:26:46.

continuing, through Dublin, through the Dubs amendment, under the VC RS,

:26:47.:26:51.

under the Syrian vulnerable persons resettlement programme. But it is

:26:52.:26:56.

also vital that we do not create a strong incentive for refugees to

:26:57.:26:59.

undertake that dangerous journey across the Mediterranean and put

:27:00.:27:04.

themselves in the hands of people traffickers. And I know this is

:27:05.:27:08.

something that perhaps we do not all share the same opinion on. But for

:27:09.:27:13.

me, I look at the figures of 2015, in what was probably the biggest

:27:14.:27:16.

movement of people since the Second World War. I do not have the

:27:17.:27:22.

statistics for 2016 but I am sure that the challenge of fragile

:27:23.:27:25.

states, conflict affected countries and regions remains. Through some of

:27:26.:27:32.

the work that I do with the IGC select committee, we have seen many

:27:33.:27:35.

examples of it, through committee work and some of the visits we have

:27:36.:27:41.

been fortunate to undertake. We also heard this week, Mr Speaker, about

:27:42.:27:46.

the prospect of serious famine across Africa, too. That is in

:27:47.:27:49.

addition to high youth unemployment in some countries. These are all

:27:50.:27:56.

extra factors that I believe are at the moment driving migration. It is

:27:57.:28:00.

not something that has just happened, but has been happening for

:28:01.:28:03.

some time. I do not blame any young person for taking the initiative and

:28:04.:28:06.

wanting to make a better life for themselves. But it is important that

:28:07.:28:11.

when they do that, they do it for the right reasons, and that there is

:28:12.:28:15.

safe passage available for those who are entitled to that safe passage.

:28:16.:28:20.

So I am very conscious of time, so I am just going to wind up by saying

:28:21.:28:25.

all of this highlights, to me, some of the challenges we face in the

:28:26.:28:29.

modern world today. And as well as looking to seek the short-term

:28:30.:28:32.

solutions that we do through humanitarian aid, through schemes

:28:33.:28:37.

that the Home Office is undertaking now, we must also use all the other

:28:38.:28:40.

means at our disposal to tackle some of these problems at source. That

:28:41.:28:46.

means using the FCO and our diplomacy skills and influence

:28:47.:28:51.

across the world. It also means using the Department for

:28:52.:28:53.

International Development and the aid budget, not just to provide

:28:54.:28:56.

humanitarian aid to those who need it most, but also to tackle things

:28:57.:29:02.

like economic development, things like developing livelihoods. It is

:29:03.:29:06.

only in that way, and working to reduce conflict and instability,

:29:07.:29:10.

that we will ever, I think, really get to the bottom of some of these

:29:11.:29:14.

very deep rooted challenges we face today.

:29:15.:29:21.

Just before I call the honourable gentleman, I should remind the house

:29:22.:29:26.

that the debate must finish no later than 6:25pm. And some may think

:29:27.:29:32.

there is merit in it finishing slightly before them. So I would

:29:33.:29:35.

appeal to the honourable gentleman and the right honourable lady to

:29:36.:29:41.

take account of the wish of the honourable lady for Wirral South,

:29:42.:29:44.

who opened the debate, to have a number of minutes to conclude it.

:29:45.:29:51.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I start by saying, like other honourable

:29:52.:29:55.

members, I genuinely welcome all the good work the Government has done

:29:56.:29:59.

and continues to do in terms of resettlement and aid. But the

:30:00.:30:03.

winding down of the dubs scheme is a deeply misguided decision, and it

:30:04.:30:09.

flies so far in the evidence -- in the face of the evidence that it is

:30:10.:30:15.

scandalous. For those reasons, I congratulate the securing of this

:30:16.:30:18.

debate and the opportunity to hold the Government to account. We have

:30:19.:30:21.

heard many fine speeches today already. If anyone really wants to

:30:22.:30:26.

understand why it is such a misguided and scandalous decision, I

:30:27.:30:28.

would urge them to read the transcript of the compelling

:30:29.:30:32.

evidence that the home Affairs Select Committee heard yesterday

:30:33.:30:38.

from Unicef, safe passage, save the children, The Children's Society,

:30:39.:30:40.

representatives of local government and Scotland's children's

:30:41.:30:44.

Commissioner. To use the words of Tambe Lee, the last of the

:30:45.:30:47.

witnesses, the limits placed on the number of transfers is a shameful

:30:48.:30:51.

step back from an already weak UK response to the plight of migrant

:30:52.:30:56.

children stranded in Europe. I distinguish the situation as regards

:30:57.:31:00.

Europe from the help the government has provided in the region. We agree

:31:01.:31:02.

with the children's Commissioner, and not only do we think that Dobbs

:31:03.:31:07.

should be reinstated and expanded but stronger and faster procedures

:31:08.:31:13.

for transfers and union rules and processes. One person in each of

:31:14.:31:17.

Greece or Italy transferring seven or eight people each year is not

:31:18.:31:21.

remotely in the ballpark of what Parliament expected. All of that is

:31:22.:31:25.

affected in this motion which we support. The evidence of the

:31:26.:31:29.

witnesses yesterday is that the scheme is a modest scheme. It is

:31:30.:31:33.

modest but very significant and unique contribution to dealing with

:31:34.:31:37.

the migration crisis facing Europe. It is completely the right thing to

:31:38.:31:42.

do. It is worth reiterating why this is such a precious prize. Conditions

:31:43.:31:47.

for too many of the over 100,000 unaccompanied chair -- child

:31:48.:31:53.

refugees in Europe are appalling. Those in Greece, 2300, more than

:31:54.:31:57.

half are living in tens with no heating, freezing conditions, lack

:31:58.:32:00.

of hot water, inadequate medical care, violence and mistreatment.

:32:01.:32:06.

Dubs, alongside other schemes, can make sure that stops happening and

:32:07.:32:10.

make our fair contribution towards that effort. That is what we are

:32:11.:32:14.

pushing for. If it is not us that does this, how can we say any other

:32:15.:32:17.

country should step up and take their share? Most impressively,

:32:18.:32:23.

witnesses yesterday utterly dismantled the two tenuous reasons

:32:24.:32:28.

given for phasing the scheme out. First, the honourable member for

:32:29.:32:31.

Cambridgeshire South has said that it is wrong for the Home Secretary

:32:32.:32:37.

to argue that it plays into the hands of people traffickers. The

:32:38.:32:41.

opposite is the case. Ending Dubs would be a boon for people

:32:42.:32:46.

traffickers. That was the opinion of Unicef, safe passage, save the

:32:47.:32:49.

children and the International rescue committee. We heard in the

:32:50.:32:53.

last speech that the anti-slavery Commissioner has published a similar

:32:54.:32:57.

report. It begs the question, Mr Speaker, did the Government take

:32:58.:33:01.

advice from their own independent expert before reaching that

:33:02.:33:04.

decision? Based on what we understand this afternoon and the

:33:05.:33:06.

letter referred to earlier, he would give them absolutely contrary advice

:33:07.:33:11.

to what the government has decided to do. The second argument made by

:33:12.:33:17.

the Government foreclosing the scheme is of course a about local

:33:18.:33:21.

government capacity. Witnesses yesterday were absolutely clear that

:33:22.:33:25.

it is not fair to argue that local authorities have capacity for 400

:33:26.:33:29.

and that is the end of the story. On the contrary, there can be

:33:30.:33:32.

significant more capacity and we were reminded that even if we just

:33:33.:33:38.

look at the Government's own 0.7% target in terms of the National

:33:39.:33:41.

transfer scheme, that leaves capacity for 4000. But to talk about

:33:42.:33:47.

what is existing capacity misses the point, because as the children's

:33:48.:33:51.

Commissioner pointed out, the question we should ask is, what

:33:52.:33:55.

additional capacity can we create, what investment and time is needed

:33:56.:33:59.

to ensure we are in a position to take our fair share? The question is

:34:00.:34:03.

not how much can we comfortably handle now, but how much do we need

:34:04.:34:08.

to do, to invest, if we are to do our fair share? The 3000 in the

:34:09.:34:13.

original Dubs amendment was not plucked out of thin air but was a

:34:14.:34:18.

careful calculation by save the children using the EU relocation

:34:19.:34:21.

formula to decide what our fair share of the estimated number of

:34:22.:34:24.

children in Europe at that time would be. The number of children in

:34:25.:34:28.

Europe is now roughly three times that so even if we stuck to the

:34:29.:34:32.

original 3000 it is still a modest contribution and underestimates the

:34:33.:34:35.

number we would rightly be expected to take. Instead of dodging

:34:36.:34:40.

responsibilities, more than ever we need to live up to them. As we

:34:41.:34:45.

heard, the First Minister said Scotland is ready to play its part

:34:46.:34:48.

and next week will be hosting another roundtable in response to

:34:49.:34:54.

the situation. Yesterday we heard that local government in England and

:34:55.:34:58.

Wales is prepared to get involved. Based on yesterday's session and

:34:59.:35:01.

briefings from other organisations like Amnesty and the International

:35:02.:35:05.

Red Cross, there is an abundance of expertise and ideas and proposals,

:35:06.:35:10.

not only about how to continue Dubs alongside Dublin, but how to expand

:35:11.:35:14.

it and make it work better and faster, not just in France, but

:35:15.:35:17.

Italy, Greece, Bulgaria and the Balkans West at -- such schemes are

:35:18.:35:23.

needed. The Government should be working with NGOs, local government

:35:24.:35:26.

and other public body -- bodies who are prepared to make this happen.

:35:27.:35:32.

This motion reflects a very strong track record on international aid to

:35:33.:35:35.

countries around Syria and I praise that, but that is not some down

:35:36.:35:39.

payment that allows us to wash our hands of the sponsor the city for

:35:40.:35:45.

hosting our share of refugees. All of the good work risks being

:35:46.:35:49.

overshadowed in years ahead by the intransigence of the Home Office in

:35:50.:35:55.

this regard. If we think hypothetically, if 100,000

:35:56.:35:59.

unaccompanied children arrived up the Thames in the UK, the Home

:36:00.:36:01.

Office would take a different approach. It would not say, we will

:36:02.:36:07.

deal with this and take some aid from Europe. They would expect other

:36:08.:36:11.

countries to step up to the plate, so we should take the same approach.

:36:12.:36:15.

The minister received credit for the action in respect of Calais, action

:36:16.:36:19.

which their predecessors had dodged for too long, which meant the

:36:20.:36:24.

process was unnecessarily messy. But that showed that with investment and

:36:25.:36:27.

political will significant progress can be achieved and lives changed.

:36:28.:36:34.

We should stick to those instincts, reader in consultation with local

:36:35.:36:36.

authorities, abandon the myths and make policy based on evidence.

:36:37.:36:45.

Expand the Dubs schemes, improve Dublin and family reunion processes.

:36:46.:36:49.

If it does so, it will be showing respect for this parliament, will

:36:50.:36:52.

command respect from the public, show solidarity with our European

:36:53.:36:56.

neighbours and most importantly it will save children from exploitation

:36:57.:37:04.

and abuse. Diane Abbott. I would like to begin by congratulating

:37:05.:37:07.

members for Wirral South and others in securing this important debate

:37:08.:37:11.

and to acknowledge that we have heard some very powerful speeches

:37:12.:37:14.

this afternoon from, amongst others, the member for Wirral South, Ealing,

:37:15.:37:24.

Southall, Mid Derbyshire, Dundee West, Loughborough, Bradford West,

:37:25.:37:28.

the member for whom informed the house that she had actually fostered

:37:29.:37:32.

refugee children which, I think, gives what she has to say some

:37:33.:37:39.

significance. The member for South Cambridgeshire, the member for

:37:40.:37:48.

infield, and others. And most members, on all sides of the house,

:37:49.:37:55.

from all parties, have made it abundantly clear this afternoon that

:37:56.:38:04.

the Government, in effectively closing the Dubs scheme, after a

:38:05.:38:11.

mere 350 children, we believe the government has fallen far short of

:38:12.:38:14.

what members in both houses thought they were voting for.

:38:15.:38:21.

All I have listened to this debate today and I have heard very powerful

:38:22.:38:26.

presentations from many people across the house and I think what

:38:27.:38:31.

this debate is -- distilled down to is to clear things, one, what do we

:38:32.:38:36.

want to look like to the rest of the world? What example to be want to

:38:37.:38:40.

set and what country do we want to be?

:38:41.:38:42.

Do you agree with that? I would agree, it is about, particularly

:38:43.:38:48.

post-Brexit, what sort of Britain are we? Genuinely outward looking

:38:49.:38:52.

internationalist humanist country or are we a country that is seeking

:38:53.:39:01.

ways to avoid its moral obligations? I must begin by acknowledging the

:39:02.:39:07.

investment and exemplary work in the refugees that have stayed in camps

:39:08.:39:09.

in the region and I visited those camps. But this debate today is

:39:10.:39:17.

about the same refugee children and others who are in mainland Europe.

:39:18.:39:23.

Some members today and sadly the Minister have spoken as if, if we

:39:24.:39:29.

pretend that those tens of thousands of child refugees already in Europe

:39:30.:39:37.

somehow don't exist, they don't matter, that they will disappear. I

:39:38.:39:43.

must bring the focus of the house to the tens of thousands of children on

:39:44.:39:49.

mainland Europe. And I would content that in narrowing the safe and legal

:39:50.:39:58.

rights from Europe for these refugee children, the government runs the

:39:59.:40:03.

risk of acting as a marketing manager for people traffickers. I

:40:04.:40:09.

have visited the caps in France and Greece, these children may be in

:40:10.:40:15.

safe countries as some members have said, but they are in horrible

:40:16.:40:19.

conditions. And this is despite the best efforts and the personal

:40:20.:40:23.

kindness... I have to make progress and this is despite... I have

:40:24.:40:31.

listened with a lot of care to all of the speeches by members on both

:40:32.:40:35.

in order to make time for my in order to make time for my

:40:36.:40:41.

honourable friend. Carreon, carry on. I have visited the camps in

:40:42.:40:50.

France and Greece, and these children may be in the said

:40:51.:40:53.

countries but they are in horrible conditions. This is despite the fact

:40:54.:40:57.

that so many local people do the best to be kind and helpful. And I

:40:58.:41:03.

would argue, far from the argument of some members in this house, this

:41:04.:41:09.

argument that if you provide safe and legal writs from Europe, this is

:41:10.:41:10.

some kind of incentive. No one has some kind of incentive. No one has

:41:11.:41:19.

visited those camps and look those families in the high -- no one who

:41:20.:41:25.

has visited those camps and looks those families and children in the

:41:26.:41:29.

eye and possibly argue that they have come to Europe on some sort of

:41:30.:41:33.

John and can be easily turned back. These are families and young people

:41:34.:41:36.

who have risked their lives and seen people die crossing the Sahara, and

:41:37.:41:40.

then risked their lives again crossing the Mediterranean. Of

:41:41.:41:45.

course it is true that the French government should have done more in

:41:46.:41:48.

the past and it is because the French were so slow originally to

:41:49.:41:54.

register refugees of all ages that so many set their hearts on the UK.

:41:55.:42:01.

But letters be realistic about the conditions facing refugees in

:42:02.:42:04.

Europe. Increased the conditions facing asylum seekers were so dire

:42:05.:42:09.

that as long ago as 2011 the ECR ruled unlawful to send people back

:42:10.:42:14.

there. Only last year in December the European Commission finally

:42:15.:42:18.

decided that sufficient improvements had been made to other EU member

:42:19.:42:22.

states to start sending people back to Greece. But how far have

:42:23.:42:28.

conditions improved really? I am not so sure they have. Last month just

:42:29.:42:32.

weeks after the commission said it was appropriate to send people the

:42:33.:42:35.

were reports that the migrants in an overcrowded camp had died within ten

:42:36.:42:44.

days of each other. It is not the immediate core -- immediate

:42:45.:42:46.

was carbon monoxide poisoning with was carbon monoxide poisoning with

:42:47.:42:48.

men sharing overcrowded tents inhaling toxic fumes from the

:42:49.:42:53.

heaters they had been forced to use in the harsh temperatures. When the

:42:54.:42:59.

number of new arrivals reached its highest ever level last year

:43:00.:43:02.

conditions may have been worse still. Recent measures requiring the

:43:03.:43:11.

Italian authorities to take a new arrivals have led to shocking abuses

:43:12.:43:15.

according to Amnesty International. They documented cases where the

:43:16.:43:18.

police used beatings and electric shocks to force compliance from

:43:19.:43:23.

fingerprints to be taken. Say these fingerprints to be taken. Say these

:43:24.:43:30.

countries are technically safe, but don't say conditions in these

:43:31.:43:34.

justified. Closing off one of the justified. Closing off one of the

:43:35.:43:40.

safe legal rights for children to go from mainland Europe to this country

:43:41.:43:47.

where they have relatives or other appropriate legal reasons to come.

:43:48.:43:52.

And at the question of local government capacity, we have heard

:43:53.:43:56.

that David Simons from the local government Association said that the

:43:57.:44:02.

Home Office child refugee funding to councils only covers 15% of the

:44:03.:44:06.

funding costs, this is a serious matter. When so many local

:44:07.:44:10.

and Conservative are under terrible and Conservative are under terrible

:44:11.:44:16.

funding pressure. There has been very limited consultation with local

:44:17.:44:18.

authorities and all the evidence says that given more time, and

:44:19.:44:25.

councils would step up to provide councils would step up to provide

:44:26.:44:28.

accommodation for the child refugees. The lack of capacity,

:44:29.:44:34.

absolute lack of capacity by local authorities are simply not been

:44:35.:44:42.

proven. It is... Thank you for giving way. To point out local

:44:43.:44:47.

authorities receive 10p per year for each unaccompanied child under 16,

:44:48.:44:51.

slightly more than 15% of the cost of doing that. I can only listen to

:44:52.:44:56.

the local government Association and base it on the covers 15% of funding

:44:57.:45:02.

costs. My point is this. It is all too easy to say that in closing off

:45:03.:45:08.

roads whether it is the dog schemes are Dublin, causing offers refugee

:45:09.:45:15.

children in Europe you are acting in their best interests, that somehow

:45:16.:45:18.

they will go back, that somehow the fact that we are indeed doing good

:45:19.:45:24.

work in the region offsets the fact that children are being left in

:45:25.:45:28.

squalor and at the mercy of people traffickers on the continent of

:45:29.:45:32.

Europe. It is all too easy but it is not right. The hallmark of a country

:45:33.:45:41.

is the fairness and the justice and humanity with which it treats the

:45:42.:45:45.

most vulnerable and who could be more for removal at this time and

:45:46.:45:52.

refugee children? So I joined my voice with the voice of so many

:45:53.:45:54.

members on both sides of this house members on both sides of this house

:45:55.:46:00.

who are pleading with the government even at this late stage to fulfil

:46:01.:46:06.

the hopes and expectations that members both in this house and in

:46:07.:46:12.

the other place had when they voted for the amendment, we are pleading

:46:13.:46:16.

with the government to fulfil not just its legal obligations but its

:46:17.:46:23.

moral obligations and hacks to save the tens and thousands of refugee

:46:24.:46:29.

people still, refugee children still on the continent of Europe, save

:46:30.:46:33.

them from the squalor, save them from the people traffickers, save

:46:34.:46:39.

them from exploitation and above all perhaps save this country's good

:46:40.:46:44.

name and reputation. To wind up the debate I call Alison

:46:45.:46:47.

McGovern. Thank you. I began this great by

:46:48.:46:51.

explaining it was a cross-party debate because the fate of refugees

:46:52.:46:54.

in a world because that belongs to no one political party, no one

:46:55.:47:01.

ideology, no one faction and the remainder of that opinion having

:47:02.:47:02.

listened to the contributions from listened to the contributions from

:47:03.:47:09.

fact, along with a member from fact, along with a member from

:47:10.:47:12.

Hackney has shown great courage herself in recent weeks, the member

:47:13.:47:17.

for Walthamstow, the member for Pontefract in Castleford, and in

:47:18.:47:23.

Bradford West, Mr Speaker, made be deeply proud to be a Labour Party

:47:24.:47:28.

member has a little bit. However, in listening to the member for South

:47:29.:47:32.

Cambridge courage and West Devon, Colchester, Loughborough, Dundee

:47:33.:47:37.

West, cover North in Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch I felt proud of my

:47:38.:47:45.

country. However, the minister decided that he would seek to speak

:47:46.:47:49.

at the beginning of this debate. And an understanding that he wished to

:47:50.:47:52.

do so personally I hope he was going to set the tone of this debate by

:47:53.:47:57.

making some new announcement, by giving some new that perhaps might

:47:58.:48:03.

soul is filled. Unfortunately Mr soul is filled. Unfortunately Mr

:48:04.:48:08.

Speaker the opposite was the case. I remain still with unanswered

:48:09.:48:16.

questions. We suspect we do not have enough staff in Greece to process

:48:17.:48:20.

Minister has said he would write Minister has said he would write

:48:21.:48:22.

your that point from which I am grateful. We still don't really know

:48:23.:48:29.

the true picture of local authority capacity, to accept new child

:48:30.:48:33.

refugees under the DOS amendment, although members right across this

:48:34.:48:36.

house have pointed to examples of their own council leaders have said

:48:37.:48:41.

quite clearly unequivocally they can do more. So the Minister must, must

:48:42.:48:50.

make a proper formal assessment and either raid or perhaps my friends

:48:51.:48:53.

the chair of the select committee or place that information in the house

:48:54.:48:58.

or some other public way. But finally and most importantly, he

:48:59.:49:03.

should commit to a proper reopening of the dog scheme, given we have

:49:04.:49:08.

clear evidence that there is widespread support for the scheme

:49:09.:49:12.

and that local authorities can and will accept more children. There is

:49:13.:49:19.

no cause for this limit of 350, whatever the rights and wrongs of

:49:20.:49:21.

what was said to who, where and when, as many members have said

:49:22.:49:25.

nobody went into this debate thinking that this was the number

:49:26.:49:31.

that we were going to accept and the Minister must commit to a properly

:49:32.:49:39.

opening of Dubbs. I have no wish to detain out any further, I want to

:49:40.:49:43.

conclude by saying that there are very clear practical reasons why

:49:44.:49:46.

turning away from refugees is a bad idea. Whether it is the impact of

:49:47.:49:52.

that message on people in poorer countries who are more likely to

:49:53.:49:58.

turn to the siren voices, extremists and terrorists but we do not stand

:49:59.:50:03.

up to the -- if we do not stand up for the values we say we believe in

:50:04.:50:08.

whether that is wider consequences of poverty that leads to conflict in

:50:09.:50:11.

the first place, turning away from refugees from a practical

:50:12.:50:15.

perspective is just not in our national interest. I remain of the

:50:16.:50:21.

view Mr Speaker, having met refugees myself, I remain of the view that

:50:22.:50:26.

the average British person who thinks about probably these issues

:50:27.:50:29.

for no more than a couple of minutes every month or so, if they met

:50:30.:50:36.

refugee and saw what those of us in this house have seen then they would

:50:37.:50:42.

feel absolutely clear that they wanted to help, none of them

:50:43.:50:44.

eternally. And yet just now our world is caught

:50:45.:50:57.

up in the oldest of stories, that when times are hard, extreme

:50:58.:51:00.

politicians turn up and tell ordinary working people to blame

:51:01.:51:04.

foreigners, rather than see the truth, that people who become

:51:05.:51:09.

refugees are just like us. So the way forward for the Government now

:51:10.:51:14.

is clear, reopened Dubs, get more staff to Greece, get children to

:51:15.:51:19.

safety. Mr Speaker, until they do so, I and my colleagues from all

:51:20.:51:23.

parties will be back here time and again. Order, the question is as on

:51:24.:51:29.

the order paper. As many as are of that opinion, say I. Of the

:51:30.:51:41.

contrary, say no. The division is deferred until Wednesday the 1st of

:51:42.:51:49.

March. Order. We come now to the adjournment. The whip to move. I beg

:51:50.:52:02.

to move the house do now adjourned. The question is that this House do

:52:03.:52:05.

now adjourn. May I appealed to members who might be leaving the

:52:06.:52:11.

chamber, quite unaccountably, in the light of the parliamentary feast

:52:12.:52:15.

that remains to be consumed, to do so quickly and quietly. The question

:52:16.:52:22.

is that this House do now adjourn. Mr Dennis Skinner. Thank you very

:52:23.:52:31.

much, Mr Speaker, for allowing this debate today, because it's a very

:52:32.:52:36.

important subject about HS2 in my constituency. I remember quite

:52:37.:52:44.

clearly the statement that was made by the then Secretary of State for

:52:45.:52:50.

Transport, announcing a for the North. And I asked him then whether

:52:51.:52:56.

it would be going to Derbyshire Dales. And of course, the answer was

:52:57.:53:03.

no. But one thing was certain, it was going through the very heavily

:53:04.:53:06.

populated eastern side of Derbyshire. And that meant there was

:53:07.:53:17.

going to be some trouble. And sure enough, during the course of the

:53:18.:53:20.

past few months, I have been trying to deal with that trouble in parts

:53:21.:53:33.

of Bolsover, meeting people. One industrial estate owned by a firm

:53:34.:53:40.

including -- employing nearly 100 people, where the line goes straight

:53:41.:53:47.

through its factory. Little did I know, however, that in the course of

:53:48.:53:53.

the past few weeks, a decision was made that was going to supersede

:53:54.:54:00.

everything that I thought about HS2. And that was the decision by Mr

:54:01.:54:07.

Higgins, in charge of HS2, who decided that it would be a good idea

:54:08.:54:13.

that in Sheffield, that is built on seven hills, to have a station in

:54:14.:54:19.

the middle of Sheffield. A station pot in a moment. A station that is a

:54:20.:54:25.

dead-end station, which means that the trains go in and come out the

:54:26.:54:29.

same way. Whereas previously it was going to be where the old steel

:54:30.:54:37.

industry was, now called Meadowhall, a massive shopping area that was a

:54:38.:54:44.

flat area. Most of us assumed that Meadowhall would be the ideal spot.

:54:45.:54:52.

At this point I will give way to my honourable friend. I thank my

:54:53.:54:57.

honourable friend forgiving way. We have a similar situation in

:54:58.:55:02.

Coventry. If you look at Warwickshire, it will desecrate

:55:03.:55:06.

Warwickshire, affect a lock of villagers. Many people in Coventry

:55:07.:55:11.

who could be affected by this will not get any compensation. The

:55:12.:55:16.

Elliott family, for example, are in that situation. More importantly,

:55:17.:55:21.

Coventry could lose out on investment, and that could happen to

:55:22.:55:25.

the honourable gentleman's constituency. I have no doubt that

:55:26.:55:30.

Birmingham is favoured because it is part of that newfangled powerhouse.

:55:31.:55:37.

Whereas Coventry is not regarded as such. In my area, it means the

:55:38.:55:44.

powerhouse is basically Sheffield. Therefore, they requested from Mr

:55:45.:55:48.

David Higgins that they wanted a station in the city built on seven

:55:49.:55:55.

hills, and they got one. Little did I realise that although I was doing

:55:56.:55:59.

meetings about the HS2 and voting against it, the truth is that it was

:56:00.:56:09.

like a bombshell. And it meant that this argument about localism versus

:56:10.:56:15.

powerhouses means that the powerhouse wins every time. It's

:56:16.:56:20.

preposterous that they didn't even consider what would happen in

:56:21.:56:25.

Derbyshire the moment that they designated Sheffield as a station.

:56:26.:56:32.

And that meant the whole line had to be redrawn. And the result was that

:56:33.:56:38.

another line had to be found, through Derbyshire, and the net

:56:39.:56:43.

result was that it's going through the middle of Newton, a small

:56:44.:56:50.

village in my area, where more than 30 houses will be demolished, the

:56:51.:56:56.

parish council is going to be cut in half, and the net result is all

:56:57.:57:02.

because of the Sheffield decision. I'm not the only one that has had an

:57:03.:57:07.

adjournment debates like this. This is the third that we have had about

:57:08.:57:11.

this particular business of Sheffield. The reason why my right

:57:12.:57:19.

honourable friend the member for Doncaster North was on his feet the

:57:20.:57:25.

other Monday talking about what was happening when the route moves from

:57:26.:57:31.

the station, not Meadowhall, towards his constituency of Doncaster North.

:57:32.:57:37.

That means it is going to go through Mexborough and destroy houses there

:57:38.:57:43.

as well. And the reason why my right honourable friend the member for

:57:44.:57:48.

Rother Valley, who sits up there, got a -- an adjournment debate a few

:57:49.:57:52.

weeks before was based upon the same matter. Sheffield had got the

:57:53.:57:57.

station, and therefore they were going to go through a village called

:57:58.:58:03.

Bramley and several others in his area, and the result is going to be

:58:04.:58:10.

havoc for all those areas. Doncaster North, Rother Valley, and now

:58:11.:58:18.

Derbyshire. And that is why the speaker gave us the adjournment

:58:19.:58:25.

debate, because he knows that it's a very important issue. And I remember

:58:26.:58:31.

that when I read the debate, the minister concerned referred to the

:58:32.:58:36.

fact that when he was interjected upon, right at the very end, by my

:58:37.:58:40.

right honourable friend, the ex-leader of the Labour Party, when

:58:41.:58:46.

he asked him whether Meadowhall was still viable, on the table, the

:58:47.:58:53.

minister said, yes. Now, I hope that is the case, because he, Higgins and

:58:54.:59:02.

all the rest of them, the Secretary of State, have got to get their

:59:03.:59:06.

heads together and stop this nonsense of allowing the station in

:59:07.:59:11.

Sheffield. This is going to create more havoc than Hitler did in the

:59:12.:59:17.

Second World War in our area. My father used to tell me as a little

:59:18.:59:21.

kid, we will go and have a look at that big hole. The bomb dropped last

:59:22.:59:27.

night. And it used to be near the railway line but it never hit it.

:59:28.:59:32.

Why did they want to hit it, because it was diverted into two lines, won

:59:33.:59:36.

the middle line and one the other line. I have to say to the Minister,

:59:37.:59:47.

has he ever considered the idea of starting at Oulton, going straight

:59:48.:59:54.

up the line that there already? It's used for traffic going to

:59:55.:00:00.

Nottingham, and also for freight. And it could then connect up to the

:00:01.:00:06.

Midland line, and therefore Newton would not be affected whatsoever. In

:00:07.:00:12.

other words, it would be a slow line, like it is now, believe me.

:00:13.:00:19.

All those 30 minutes have gone. Can you remember the 30 minutes when

:00:20.:00:23.

they announced it? The business people will be able to get to London

:00:24.:00:27.

30 minutes quicker, and they are going to spend... Well, the current

:00:28.:00:36.

cost is ?78 billion. I know if I had got ?78 billion when I was in

:00:37.:00:40.

government, I would have given a lot of it to the National Health Service

:00:41.:00:47.

and some mortar social care. And I would have electrification of the

:00:48.:00:51.

Sheffield line. -- some more to social care. Why don't they do that?

:00:52.:00:56.

And if they do that with the Sheffield to London Midland line,

:00:57.:01:00.

then they get the benefit of what would be applicable if they had HS2.

:01:01.:01:09.

I thank my honourable friend forgiving way. It is an interesting

:01:10.:01:13.

point because High Speed Rail Bill affect the frequency on the West

:01:14.:01:16.

Coast Main Line, for example. Secondly, nobody knows exactly what

:01:17.:01:22.

High Speed Rail Bill would cost in terms of passenger fares. That has

:01:23.:01:27.

never been spilled out before. It could affect us in a number of ways

:01:28.:01:31.

in Coventry but he was quite right when he mentioned Birmingham as the

:01:32.:01:34.

regional capital. The benefits will go to Birmingham, and more

:01:35.:01:37.

importantly, to get Birmingham on board, they will establish a skills

:01:38.:01:42.

college. There are enough skills in the West Midlands and the East

:01:43.:01:48.

Midlands to fulfil that objective. I absolutely agree with my honourable

:01:49.:01:51.

friend. He has been with me in the lobbies when we have voted, but

:01:52.:01:56.

little did I know when I was voting that I would be later on arguing

:01:57.:02:01.

this case for the beleaguered people of Newton. It is horrific, when you

:02:02.:02:10.

think about it. Here they were, playing no part in the HS2 argument.

:02:11.:02:16.

Suddenly, a decision was made by Mr Higgins, no doubt supported by the

:02:17.:02:23.

ministers concerned, who announced the Sheffield station. And the net

:02:24.:02:27.

result is that we have these two lines, one the slow track that finds

:02:28.:02:35.

its way through the middle of Newton and then joins the track later on.

:02:36.:02:40.

It is a nonsense. The very idea that they thought they needed a branch

:02:41.:02:44.

line when they could have carried on and gone straight through to

:02:45.:02:48.

Sheffield on the Midland line. It is almost unbelievable that the

:02:49.:02:53.

Government has fallen into this trap. And that is why I am pleased

:02:54.:02:58.

that this morning I was able to say to the Secretary of State, today in

:02:59.:03:05.

Question Time, whether he would meet the Newton people. Because as you

:03:06.:03:08.

can imagine, immediately they found out that they were in the firing

:03:09.:03:16.

line, they had a group of people immediately set to the task of

:03:17.:03:20.

finding out what was going to happen and trying to make sure that it is

:03:21.:03:25.

prevented. When I went there the other week, there were more than 300

:03:26.:03:34.

people in the hall, 150 people standing. It is a tiny village, but

:03:35.:03:38.

this is the enormity of their response. And they kept the doors

:03:39.:03:43.

open to the people on the streets to hear what was taking place. It was

:03:44.:03:50.

the biggest meeting I have had since the general election, and it was all

:03:51.:03:57.

done on the spur of the moment. So I ask the minister concerned that we

:03:58.:04:05.

want to bring these people down, and they will ask the Minister, very

:04:06.:04:11.

sensibly, about ensuring that instead of going to Newton, that the

:04:12.:04:17.

train carries on and joins the Midland line on its way to

:04:18.:04:24.

Sheffield. It will not make any difference about the time, because,

:04:25.:04:28.

quite frankly, it is going to lose time on that route anyway. But it

:04:29.:04:34.

means that the Government would not have two develop a branch line

:04:35.:04:41.

called the Newton spur, that turns off to the left. That would not have

:04:42.:04:48.

to be done. But the most sensible thing is for electrification of the

:04:49.:04:55.

Midland line, and we are home and dry and would probably get trains

:04:56.:05:00.

today travelling even faster. So I want the Minister to be able to

:05:01.:05:08.

report to the Secretary of State about this discussion today, because

:05:09.:05:14.

it can be resolved. But they do have two ensure that the Meadowhall idea

:05:15.:05:23.

is continued with. And it means not only resolving the problem in

:05:24.:05:28.

Newton, but it also means resolving the problem in Mexborough. It could

:05:29.:05:35.

also solve the problem in Bramley, in Rother Valley as well. Those are

:05:36.:05:41.

the things, in my opinion, that he could do most sensibly to solve this

:05:42.:05:44.

problem. Have I done Court of an hour? -- quarter of an hour? I have

:05:45.:05:56.

got two minutes. I hope that the Minister will take on board

:05:57.:06:01.

everything I have said today. I have not tried to hide the facts.

:06:02.:06:06.

Everything I have said in this chamber today has been based upon

:06:07.:06:10.

the knowledge I have obtained going to the meetings with my Newton

:06:11.:06:19.

colleagues, who believe they have a storm to deal with. And it came out

:06:20.:06:25.

of the blue. Never realising that it would be a problem. So you will have

:06:26.:06:33.

a fast line going on to Meadowhall, the slow line dwindling its way.

:06:34.:06:40.

Let's keep it away from Newton. Thank you very much. Let's hope

:06:41.:06:42.

there is a satisfactory conclusion. honourable gentleman for securing

:06:43.:06:57.

this debate on high-speed rail? Apologies for being crooked but I

:06:58.:07:00.

will get through the next quarter of an hour. Through programmes such as

:07:01.:07:08.

HS2 this government is investing in world-class infrastructure to ensure

:07:09.:07:11.

that the UK can seize the opportunities and compete on a

:07:12.:07:16.

global stage. HS2 I believe is a great project, it will increase

:07:17.:07:21.

capacity or congested railways, filled with passengers and freight.

:07:22.:07:24.

It will improve connections between the biggest cities in the regions,

:07:25.:07:28.

generate jobs and skills in economic growth and help us to Billy Connolly

:07:29.:07:31.

that works right across the country. Even if you never travelled by train

:07:32.:07:36.

you stand to benefit from fewer lorries on the road, from the

:07:37.:07:40.

thousands of local jobs and apprenticeships that can be created

:07:41.:07:45.

25,000 private-sector jobs just to 25,000 private-sector jobs just to

:07:46.:07:51.

build a railway and 3000 to operate it wanted opens. It has been

:07:52.:07:54.

estimated that there will be 100,000 new jobs created by HS2, 70% of

:07:55.:08:02.

which will be outside London. Of course the rich to South Yorkshire

:08:03.:08:08.

is not yet decided. The honourable gentleman asked is the medal while

:08:09.:08:12.

options still open? It is. We have not made a decision. We are

:08:13.:08:17.

consulting on this matter and consulting until that closes, which

:08:18.:08:25.

is on mastermind. Then we will be reviewing submissions before making

:08:26.:08:29.

any final decisions. The original 2013 consultation proposed serving

:08:30.:08:34.

South Yorkshire with the route along the writer Valley and a new HS2

:08:35.:08:39.

station about six commenters from the Sheffield city centre. Since

:08:40.:08:41.

consultation the opinion of local consultation the opinion of local

:08:42.:08:43.

people about the best location has been divided. That is a fairly clear

:08:44.:08:51.

understatement. This has made a decision about how HS2 can best

:08:52.:08:53.

serve the region very challenging and the fact is that Mac and the

:08:54.:08:59.

fact is rounding the decision are balanced. I have met with colleagues

:09:00.:09:03.

and residents from South Yorkshire and will continue to do so. Since

:09:04.:09:09.

that time the happy new developments since 2013 including the northern

:09:10.:09:12.

powerhouse real for fast and frequent services in city centres

:09:13.:09:18.

across the North. In light of these developments and the feedback

:09:19.:09:20.

received in response to the 2013 consultation HS2 Ltd continues to

:09:21.:09:26.

consider a range of options in as to how HS2 can best serve South

:09:27.:09:29.

integrity of its service for a integrity of its service for a

:09:30.:09:32.

larger markets across the North of England. As a result of this work

:09:33.:09:37.

David Higgins recommended the main north-south road should follow a

:09:38.:09:38.

more easterly alignment. There are more easterly alignment. There are

:09:39.:09:44.

some 70 Congo between Derbyshire and West Yorkshire which we refer to as

:09:45.:09:48.

the enemy team route. A main point for colour matter which could be

:09:49.:09:53.

built off the HS2 mainline. Enabling HS2 trains to run into the city

:09:54.:10:01.

centre along the existing network. The honourable gentleman mentioned

:10:02.:10:07.

the line that has been indeed considered but it has also been

:10:08.:10:09.

considered not suitable for high-speed trains, the line is

:10:10.:10:13.

within a flood plain and would need to be elevated through a viaduct. We

:10:14.:10:18.

would have to divert the existing uses of that line into other new

:10:19.:10:22.

facilities so it has indeed been considered. As I say, no final

:10:23.:10:29.

decision... I will. This is vital to our meeting that he will have later

:10:30.:10:34.

with the Secretary of State for Transport. He said that the wash

:10:35.:10:40.

line could not be considered will not be considered. The truth is that

:10:41.:10:43.

it goes to Taunton the HS2 and then it goes to Taunton the HS2 and

:10:44.:10:48.

proceeds to Meadowhall. Under the proceeds to Meadowhall. Under

:10:49.:10:52.

present arrangements there would be present arrangements there would be

:10:53.:10:56.

the spare line that would go through Newton and clean out at least 30

:10:57.:11:01.

houses. Thus the honourable gentleman realise what he is saying?

:11:02.:11:07.

That he thinks that South Yorkshire can be dealt with but Newton will

:11:08.:11:15.

demolished surely because they do demolished surely because they do

:11:16.:11:20.

not have the wherewithal to deal with that wash line which has

:11:21.:11:28.

traffic on it now? What I'm saying is that the wash line has been

:11:29.:11:35.

considered but a decision has not been made. We are reviewing all of

:11:36.:11:39.

the options which has been made clear. This consultation is a live

:11:40.:11:46.

consultation and will be running through until the 9th of March. We

:11:47.:11:50.

will come on to talk about Newton in just a moment. The approach that has

:11:51.:11:56.

been put forward by Sir David Higgins would allow trains to serve

:11:57.:12:01.

Chesterfield directly and there would be further benefits to

:12:02.:12:03.

neighbouring parts of Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. Sir David also

:12:04.:12:08.

identified in his report the potential to create a connection

:12:09.:12:12.

back onto the HS2 mainline broth of Sheffield, basically creating

:12:13.:12:18.

therefore he looked rather than a spur to serve the city to enable

:12:19.:12:22.

services stopping at Sheffield Midland to stop at destinations

:12:23.:12:26.

further north. We propose any team that has additional benefits and

:12:27.:12:30.

that it affects far fewer properties and generates less noise and

:12:31.:12:35.

less congested, avoiding businesses less congested, avoiding businesses

:12:36.:12:38.

and the risk from the legacy of mining. The honourable death and has

:12:39.:12:42.

from his constituency -- expressing from his constituency -- expressing

:12:43.:12:47.

their concern about the impact of this new route on communities. Today

:12:48.:12:52.

in this debate he has obviously highlighted the issues regarding the

:12:53.:12:57.

Newton community. Members of the committee of concerns about the

:12:58.:13:00.

roads and property values and roads and property values and

:13:01.:13:03.

condensation screen -- conversation schemes. He raised the issue is

:13:04.:13:12.

transport questions today and it is important to meet with local

:13:13.:13:18.

residents. I have met with many have saw as the Secretary of State and he

:13:19.:13:22.

will continue to do so. This government considers it

:13:23.:13:25.

important to listen to the concerns of residents about the proposed HS2

:13:26.:13:30.

wrote which is why HS2 Ltd has engaged closely and continues to

:13:31.:13:33.

engage with the people of South Yorkshire to understand the

:13:34.:13:34.

concerns. The current phase to be concerns. The current phase to be

:13:35.:13:40.

rude refinement consultation is addressing issues directly raised by

:13:41.:13:45.

local residents that includes the location of the pose, where to put

:13:46.:13:50.

viaducts, infrastructure property impact. We have seen from other

:13:51.:13:56.

stages in the development of this project that as the consultations

:13:57.:13:59.

have taken place the refinements of them followed so these are genuine

:14:00.:14:04.

open consultations and changes are being made. The consultation

:14:05.:14:14.

exercise as information events along the route, and residents can get

:14:15.:14:19.

information on the project. These events have been widely attended. We

:14:20.:14:24.

have at engineers and bimetal consultants, and property experts

:14:25.:14:27.

attending. The entire HS2 project has benefited from engagement with

:14:28.:14:32.

the committees along the line of the commutes I hope I can assure the

:14:33.:14:35.

honourable gentleman in the house that the government and HS2 Ltd are

:14:36.:14:44.

listing. Will be labelled and give way? It is

:14:45.:14:50.

not a question of listening? The minister does not understand that

:14:51.:14:52.

this small village of Newton is going to be decimated as a result of

:14:53.:14:58.

Higgins making the decision. I want to know whether there will not only

:14:59.:15:05.

be consultations but has the minister got the power to sack

:15:06.:15:09.

Higgins for coming up with this preposterous idea of a brand swine

:15:10.:15:16.

resulting in Newton being wrecked as a result of that? I will not agree

:15:17.:15:21.

that people should be sacked for coming up with ideas. That is

:15:22.:15:25.

clearly not a sensible way forward in any kind of policy development so

:15:26.:15:31.

we were a agree on that point. I am aware of how challenging this is the

:15:32.:15:33.

communities along the line of the rich. That is why I have met with

:15:34.:15:39.

them, my colleagues have met with them and we wish to emphasise that

:15:40.:15:46.

we do recognise and empathise with the difficult decisions they find

:15:47.:15:52.

themselves in. We're looking at five residential properties in the

:15:53.:15:56.

directorate of the Newton and I further seven properties have

:15:57.:15:59.

potential. We have tried to design potential. We have tried to design

:16:00.:16:04.

the HS2 reawaken eyes the effects of -- minimise the effects on people

:16:05.:16:08.

across the road but it is impossible to build such a large piece of

:16:09.:16:12.

infrastructure without an impact. The construction and operation of

:16:13.:16:16.

any major structure project has the potential to cause substantial

:16:17.:16:18.

changes to the surrounding neighbourhoods and environments and

:16:19.:16:24.

it is also the impact of the line in construction, such as the dust,

:16:25.:16:30.

construction phase. We are acutely construction phase. We are acutely

:16:31.:16:33.

aware of this and whatever we... In one moment I will indeed. Whenever

:16:34.:16:38.

properties are being considered I am acutely aware that we're not just

:16:39.:16:43.

dealing with a financial investment, people invest more than money in

:16:44.:16:48.

treating a home and this is not something we would take away from

:16:49.:16:51.

anyone like this I have also the theory in respect of the communities

:16:52.:16:52.

along the line of the road. I thank along the line of the road. I thank

:16:53.:17:02.

the Minister forbiddingly. Have constituents who have found

:17:03.:17:04.

accommodation does not cover them so they will lose the value of their

:17:05.:17:08.

homes but the question really is this, what discussions has he had

:17:09.:17:12.

with the select committee on high-speed rail? Has he taken on

:17:13.:17:15.

board any suggestions? That he had any discussions about this? MS with

:17:16.:17:23.

many colleagues and included the members of the site committee on it

:17:24.:17:29.

so I have indeed done so. Let me address a little bit about some of

:17:30.:17:33.

the work that HS2 is doing in lazy with communities. We recognise fully

:17:34.:17:42.

with the cover cases people are facing at the very challenging. The

:17:43.:17:46.

plate, the concern and anxiety, Philip Sanders. HS2 Ltd is fully

:17:47.:17:54.

committed to working with everyone to drop a comment about the job

:17:55.:17:57.

package of measures to address local impact in construction. Construction

:17:58.:18:02.

activity would be included in that. They provided information on the

:18:03.:18:06.

plans to mitigate noise and other environmental issues. This

:18:07.:18:09.

information is all available on the HS2 Ltd website. Examples of

:18:10.:18:14.

mitigation could be the various environmental interventions, trees,

:18:15.:18:19.

hedgerows, Franks -- shrubs, performs etc. HS2 has also provided

:18:20.:18:24.

on property con -- compensation on property con -- compensation

:18:25.:18:29.

schemes for residents. We have written to directly affected

:18:30.:18:32.

residents to inform them of the specific impact on the property, and

:18:33.:18:35.

the options available to them. Options include the need to sell

:18:36.:18:40.

are required to demonstrate they are required to demonstrate they

:18:41.:18:42.

have a compelling reason to sell the property. And at the unable to do so

:18:43.:18:52.

or must is likely substantially reduced price. If that is accepted

:18:53.:18:59.

then the government will buy the property at the full on bloated

:19:00.:19:06.

market value. HS2 I recognise is a project that has divided opinion but

:19:07.:19:09.

it has been through this house and been recognised to go forward with

:19:10.:19:13.

huge majorities, and the same in other place. We have run in HS2 the

:19:14.:19:19.

largest public consultation in British government history.

:19:20.:19:23.

Throughout the lifetime of the scheme we have sought to listen to

:19:24.:19:26.

communities and take on board the comments and concerns at every

:19:27.:19:30.

stage. That will continue. It will continue with the honourable

:19:31.:19:33.

gentleman in the residents that he represents. HS2 is already having an

:19:34.:19:39.

impact. Local authorities and Empress -- enterprise partnerships

:19:40.:19:44.

are giving up for HS2 under and growth strategies, supported by the

:19:45.:19:45.

UK Government to maximise the UK Government to maximise the

:19:46.:19:52.

benefits of HS2 in the areas. Regions can start to benefit from

:19:53.:19:56.

HS2 long before it is built simply by starting to work on their

:19:57.:19:59.

long-term plans for regeneration and development to bring in investment

:20:00.:20:03.

and businesses. I have met with council leaders in Birmingham and

:20:04.:20:09.

Manchester and Leeds at all have highlighted how this will be a

:20:10.:20:14.

fantastic list for the cities and regions and opportunities will flow

:20:15.:20:18.

from it. HS2 is working with businesses across the UK including

:20:19.:20:22.

many small and medium-sized firms to ensure they are well prepared to bid

:20:23.:20:25.

for contracts to reap the benefits. We have had a supply road show, I

:20:26.:20:31.

spoke at an event in Aberdeen. You could argue a long way from the line

:20:32.:20:38.

of route. There are many businesses in that area that have high levels

:20:39.:20:42.

of skills in steel platform construction and other engineering

:20:43.:20:47.

matters and we wanted to see this as a project from the UK for the UK and

:20:48.:20:50.

we want you to participate. HS2 is going ahead. It has heard

:20:51.:21:03.

Royal assent just today. We have to recognise that the next questions

:21:04.:21:08.

are how we minimise disruption during the build, maximise the

:21:09.:21:11.

opportunities it presents, whilst working hard to resolving

:21:12.:21:14.

outstanding questions and treat all residents affected with the dignity,

:21:15.:21:18.

transparency and courtesy they demand. It is not simply about

:21:19.:21:27.

improving transport. HS2 is about building a much better

:21:28.:21:30.

infrastructure network across the country, and to create from that an

:21:31.:21:33.

economic legacy fit for future generations. The question is that

:21:34.:21:44.

this House do now adjourn. Order, order.

:21:45.:21:48.

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