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are no further points of order, and I think you go racing that, we come | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
to the presentation of bills, secretary Elizabeth truss. | :00:00. | :00:12. | |
Prisoners... Second reading, what they? Tomorrow. We now come to the | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
motion in the name of the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party on | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
Armed Forces and investigations in prosecution of historical cases to | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
move the motion I call said Jeffrey Donaldson. And be half of my white | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
honourable and honourable friends I am delighted to move this motion in | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
the name of the Democratic Unionist party at let me say from the outset | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
that the veterans of our Armed Forces and those who served in the | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
police, not only in Northern Ireland but cost United can do, I the | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
highest esteem by this party, and we have always sought to use our | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
Parliamentary time to raise issues are of concern to them. We're glad | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
to do so again on this occasion. I welcome the opportunity of this | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
debate and I think all of my colleagues and all those who are in | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
attendance including the ministers from both Ireland office and the | :01:12. | :01:23. | |
Ministry of Defence. Mr Speaker, the legacy of our troubled past remains | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
a matter for this parliament and for the government of the United Kingdom | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
to deal with full. Our motion refers to other theatres of conflict, Iraq, | :01:31. | :01:38. | |
Kosovo and Afghanistan and I wouldn't want at the outset to play | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
tribute to all of those who have served and especially those who have | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
died in the servers of our country in each of these operations. I know | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
the bubble honourable right honourable member 's will which to | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
refer to them and their remarks, but the House will forgive me if I could | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
concentrate merely on the situation in Northern Ireland. With good | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
reason. Let me again remind colleagues the operation Banner was | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
the longest running military operation in the history of the | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
Army. During the period known as the troubles in Northern Ireland, there | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
were over three and a half thousand deaths, of these over 2000, 60%, | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
were murders carried out by Republican paramedic tree catalysts, | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
mainly the provisional IRA. Over 1000 were carried out by loyalist | :02:32. | :02:39. | |
paramilitaries some 30%. British and Irish state forces were responsible | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
for Thames and of the deaths, almost all of which occurred as result of | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
entirely lawful actions where soldiers and police officers acted | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
to safeguard life and property and uphold the rule of law. In fact, a | :02:53. | :03:00. | |
member of the security forces in Northern Ireland was three times | :03:01. | :03:02. | |
more likely to be killed than a member of the IR A. Contrast this | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
with Iraq, for example, where terrorist insurgents were three | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
times more likely to be killed the members of the Armed Forces. --- | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
then a member of the IRA. I think it sets the Northern Ireland situation | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
into context. Let me restate that paramilitary terrorists were | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
responsible for some 90% of the deaths in Northern Ireland and on | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
both sides of the border. Whereas, 10% of deaths are attributable to | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
state forces. Of these deaths, there are over 3000 unsolved murders | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
arising from our troubled past. What a terrible legacy this is, one of | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
pain and loss and a deep sense of injustice on the part of the victims | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
and their families. Let me be clear, there can be no moral or legal | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
equivalent is between police, our Armed Forces and those who were | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
members of illegal, criminal, terrorist organisations. So, let us | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
contrast how the two have been treated. It is well accepted as a | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
principle that in a democracy nobody should be above the law. And yet, as | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
will become clear for my remark is that appears to be one rule for | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
those who serve our country and another for those whose objective is | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
to destroy it for. Unfortunately, these legacy issues were not | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
adequately addressed, never mind resolved in the deeply flawed | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
Belfast agreement of Good Friday. Instead, the government agreed to | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
release Ali from prison those prisoners sentenced for offences | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
linked to the troubles in Northern Ireland. --- to release early. And | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
who were members of a terrorist organisation on ceasefire and | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
reporting volley... Terrorists who were found guilty of crimes | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
including murder were released after serving any two years in jail, these | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
included the example the notorious bomber Sean Kelly from the | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
constituency of my right honourable friend the Member for North Belfast. | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
He was sentenced to nine life terms in prison for the murder of nine | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
innocent civilians, he served just seven years in jail. Less than one | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
year fit each life he destroyed. In addition, and beyond the terms of | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
the agreement, the then Secretary of State, the now Lord Mandelson, in | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
September 2000, announced that the government would no longer seek the | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
extradition of those provisional IRA prisoners who had escaped including | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
several who had escaped from the maze prison in my constituency in | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
1983. This included convicted terrorists. And former head of the | :06:04. | :06:13. | |
provisional IRA. Someone who was convicted of the murder of the | :06:14. | :06:15. | |
deputy governor of the maze prison. The governor, who was shot in front | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
of his wife, what an appalling atrocity. Liam Avril, convicted of | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
the sectarian murder of two Protestants, and who escaped from | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
the maze prison dressed as a woman in 1997. And yet the extradition was | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
not sought by the government of the day. In addition, perhaps up to 30 | :06:40. | :06:51. | |
provisional IRA terrorists have been granted the royal prerogative of | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
mercy and allowed to go free. In 2001 the then Labour government | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
sought to extend this concession further so that an amnesty would be | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
introduced for all members of terrorist organisations on | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
ceasefire. In a letter dated the 4th of May, 2001, the then Secretary of | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
State Doctor John Reid Road to the Prime Minister Tony Blair, and in | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
that letter Doctor Reid stated, in the Hillsborough statement of the | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
8th of March, we accepted publicly for the first time that it would be | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
a natural development of the early release scheme to discontinue the | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
prosecution of pre-Good Friday Agreement offences allegedly | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
committed by supporters of organisations now on ceasefire. In | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
the same letter to the Prime Minister, Doctor Reid said, and made | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
clear that the legislation to provide for this amnesty, should | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
exclude members of the security forces from the amnesty | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
arrangements, though we should not underestimate the difficulty of | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
holding this line in Parliament in the face of an inevitable press | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
campaign. You bet, Doctor Reid. We opposed it and we opposed it | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
vigorously, and we stopped it in its tracks and I'm confident this | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
government would never consider such a concession to those who have | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
committed murder on the streets of Northern Ireland, and indeed in | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
Great Britain. But note an amnesty was offered. And amnesty was put on | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
the table for terrorist organisations, whilst the members of | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
our security forces were to be excluded. Just as they were excluded | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
and ignored in the agreement in 1998. Well, Doctor Wright, Doctor | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
Reid was certainly right about the opposition that he would face to | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
such a reprehensible scheme but it didn't stop there. A secret deal was | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
then done between the Northern Ireland Office and Sinn Fein to the | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
benefit of provisional IRA terrorists who were still on the | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
run, few were fugitives from justice. They were wanted for | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
questioning relation to serious terrorist relating offences | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
including murder. Four letters of comfort were issued by the Northern | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
Ireland Office to each of these terrorists, sometimes delivered by | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
the post man Gerry Kelly from North Belfast, informing them that there | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
were no warrants in existence, nor were they wanted in Northern Ireland | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
for rest, questioning or charging by the police. Issuing of these letters | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
by The Northern Ireland Office resulted in the disgraceful | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
situation, where an alleged IRA member, John Downie, was able to | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
escape conviction in the courts in London, for the murder of four | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
soldiers in the Hyde Park bombings of 1982 full stop Madam Deputy | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
Speaker, I could go on. But I think it's important now that we focus on | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
the sacrifice of the security forces. Of those who served our | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
country. According to the Sutton index of death in the Troubles in | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
Northern Ireland there were 520 regular army Royal Navy, Royal air | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
Force, reserves and veterans murdered by terrorists during | :10:06. | :10:13. | |
Operation Banner. In addition, there were 243 members of the Ulster | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
Defence Regiment, the Royal Irish Regiment, and veterans, murdered by | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
terrorists. There were 325 Royal Ulster Constabulary, other | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
constabularies and retired police of his is murdered by terrorists. There | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
were 26 prison officers and former prison officer is murdered by | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
terrorists. Madam Deputy Speaker, that amounts to 1100 men and women | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
in the service of the Crown who were murdered by terrorists and countless | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
others who were seriously injured and left to bear the mental and | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
physical scars of this reign of terror. I'm very grateful to the | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
honourable member for giving way and he's speaking very powerfully about | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
the victims of terror. One is my uncle, who sits in the other plays, | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
who was attacked brutally by IRA men one who was representing our country | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
in Brussels. There are so many scars that are hidden by the statistics. I | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
understand why he mentions them. But they are hidden because they are not | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
listed and yet they bear those scars today, even when they were unharmed | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
physically. The honourable member is absolutely right and as I have just | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
said, there are countless others who were seriously injured and left to | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
bear the mental and physical scars of this reign of terror. It is | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
evidence, Madam Deputy Speaker, that little effort has been made to bring | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
to justice those responsible for the seen as crimes, committed by the | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
terrorist organisations who were responsible for 90% of the deaths in | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
the Northern Ireland Troubles. Yet enormous resources, hundreds of | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
millions of pounds, of taxpayers' money, and countless hours of | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
valuable police time, has been devoted to hounding the security | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
forces to vigorously pursuing, investigations against former | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
veterans of the Armed Forces and retired lease officers. The Chief | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
Constable did establish the historical enquiries team, that | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
sought to re-examine the unsolved murders in Northern Ireland, but it | :12:20. | :12:21. | |
could only review the previous police investigations and it lacks | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
full police powers to renew the investigation of these killings. It | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
was eventually wound up and the Police Service of Northern Ireland | :12:34. | :12:35. | |
established a new legacy investigation Branch to act as a | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
temporary measure until wider agreement could be secured on the | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
legacy issues. Today, madam Deputy Speaker, the PSNI's legacy | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
investigation Branch devotes a wholly disproportionate level of its | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
resources to the investigation of killings linked to the security | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
forces and hopelessly inadequate resources to the thousands, | :13:02. | :13:02. | |
thousands of unsolved terrorist murders. Recently we have witnessed | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
two retired veterans of the Parachute Regiment, aged 67 and 65, | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
charged with murder, in connection with the shooting of IRA commander | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
Joe McCann in Belfast in 1972. This follows the decision to prosecute a | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
75-year-old veteran of the lifeguards, who has been charged | :13:29. | :13:30. | |
with the attempted murder of a man in County Tyrone 1974. Whilst the | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
families of thousands of innocent victims, including over 1000 cases | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
involving the murder of police officers, soldiers and prison | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
officers, wait in vain for some action to be taken to investigate | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
those crimes, the police are devoting resources towards | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
investigating the small number of killings linked to the state. I | :13:56. | :14:04. | |
apologise for not being here at the start and I apologise for not being | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
here for the whole of the debate but I want to salute him and his | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
colleagues in the DUP for today holding this debate, which is hugely | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
important. The point he's just made about the disproportionate number of | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
investigations into former soldiers and police officers, is he aware | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
that the Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland has | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
issued effectively a fatwa to news organisations across the United | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
Kingdom, that had the temerity to make any criticism of Mr McCrory, | :14:36. | :14:48. | |
and that they will be served with legal proceedings. Does that not | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
illustrate the attempt that is being made by some in Northern Ireland to | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
ensure that they get a soldier in the dock for something that happened | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
45 years ago? It's completely immoral. Well, we do have freedom of | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
the press in Northern Ireland and it's important that we all recognise | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
and respect the freedom of the press and the facts speak for themselves. | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
I've already outlined some of those facts. I think there are many in | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
Northern Ireland who wonder why the justice system is so focused on what | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
the state did and devotes so little of its energy and time towards what | :15:28. | :15:35. | |
the terrorists did. I'm following closely his remarks. Does he agree | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
with me that the end result of all of this is that Sinn Fein is winning | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
the war, by which I mean is managing to shift public opinion, so somehow | :15:46. | :15:53. | |
the Troubles become an issue to do with the actions of the British | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
state, and not to do with the murderous barbarism of terrorism | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
during a period of time? And would he say also that it's having some | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
measure of success in that endeavour? Madam Deputy Speaker, I | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
think the honourable member for his intervention and he is absolutely | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
right, and whilst the IRA did not win the war in Northern Ireland, | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
Sinn Fein are trying to win the propaganda war and rewrite the | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
history of the Troubles. And for our part let me be absolutely clear, | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
they will not be allowed to rewrite the history of the Troubles in | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
Northern Ireland. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I have said, it's | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
evident that the current resources devoted towards legacy | :16:35. | :16:36. | |
investigations are heavily skewed towards investigating what the | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
police and the army did, and not enough is being done to address what | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
the terrorists did, despite the fact that they were responsible for over | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
90% of the deaths in Northern Ireland and in other parts of the | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
UK. It is wrong that the full powers and finances of the state are | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
devoted to prosecuting the men and women who stood in the front line in | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
the most difficult of to defend the entire community and to uphold the | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
rule of law. I thank the right honourable member for giving way. | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
Would he agree with me as he delivers his powerful speech | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
regarding this, that to comp claim -- to compound matters in the last | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
few weeks a number of veterans' groups are organising events to | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
highlight this problem is that we are highlighting and one of those | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
groups attempted to organise peaceful demonstrating, a peaceful | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
laying of a wreath in Londonderry a couple of weeks ago, and were forced | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
to cancel as a result of threats from dissident organisation, which | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
compounds the problem is he's highlighted today in Parliament? I | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
thank the envelope -- Honourable member for East Londonderry for his | :17:57. | :17:58. | |
intervention. There are some in Northern Ireland who talk much about | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
respect and equality, who talked much about discrimination, and yet | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
the same people were silent when it came to the violent, violent threats | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
made against some veterans, who simply wanted to exercise their | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
Civil Liberties to march to the Cenotaph in Londonderry and lay a | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
wreath in remembrance of their comrades. Some respect there, some | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
equality there, and I think it is the case that some in Northern | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
Ireland politics speak with forked tongue. Madam Deputy Speaker, when | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
we add to all of these things the fact that legacy inquests and | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
investigations by the office of the police ombudsman are also laying | :18:40. | :18:46. | |
bare the modus operandi of the counter-terrorism organisations -- | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
operations by the army and police that brought the terrorists in | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
Northern Ireland to their knees and help secure the relative degree of | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
peace we enjoy today, then we should all be concerned, because it's our | :18:59. | :19:00. | |
national security. It's the security of every UK citizen that is put at | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
risk, when we allow the operations of the security forces to be exposed | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
in this way through the legal system, and we must bear in mind | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
there is a continuing threat. A police officer yesterday targeted by | :19:16. | :19:23. | |
Republican terrorists in County Londonderry, and another police | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
officer shot in the constituency of my right honourable friend the | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
member for North Belfast. That terrorist threat remains and yet | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
here we are exposing how the security forces counter that violent | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
extremism and terrorism. Madam Deputy Speaker, we can be sure of | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
this. Putting soldiers and police officers in the dock whilst the | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
terrorists walk free is an expediency that will cost us dear in | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
years to come, if we don't do something about it now. I thank him | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
for giving way. He highlights their one of the critical issues which I'm | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
hearing from both young and older Armed Forces personnel and those who | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
are considering this pressure, this risk to serving our nation and the | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
long-term impact it could have on them and their families decades down | :20:16. | :20:17. | |
the line, is actually stopping people from signing up, and it's | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
She is absolutely right. Not only is earlier than they otherwise would. | :20:22. | :20:31. | |
She is absolutely right. Not only is this a affecting the morale of those | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
who serve at present, but it is acting as a huge disincentive for | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
recruitment to our Armed Forces. Who wants to put themselves on the front | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
line in circumstances where a few years down the road, because of | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
so-called human rights lawyers, we will see these young men and women | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
betrayed? And it simply is not right. And this is being realised | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
rather belatedly but with the welcome decision to close down the | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
Iraq historical allegations team. Consider the damage to the morale of | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
our Armed Forces and the consequences this has had with a | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
marked downturn in recruitment and retention. While so-called human | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
rights lawyers get rich with the lucrative returns such cases can | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
bring, mainly from the public purse, the men and women in the front line | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
defending our country find it hard to avoid a sense of betrayal. I have | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
heard that from many of them. All rights thinking people should rail | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
against this. The Stormont House Agreement reached between the | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
Government and the political parties in Northern Ireland made clear there | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
would be no amnesty for terrorist related crimes. And its proposed a | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
new set of institutions to deal with other troubled past. Let me be | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
clear. This party stands by the Stormont House Agreement. We stand | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
by our commitment that we will not accept an amnesty for the | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
terrorists. And we endorse the institutions that have been proposed | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
under that agreement, including a new historical investigations unit, | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
which would have full police powers and would take over the work of the | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
PS and I's legacy investigation Branch. And the responsibility for | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
reinvestigating unsolvable murders linked to the troubles in Northern | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
Ireland. We welcome that unsupported and we believe that the sooner we | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
can get that new institution up and running the better for everyone and | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
especially for the innocent victims. However, the Stormont House | :22:34. | :22:35. | |
Agreement has not yet been implemented. This is due to an | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
impasse that has arisen between the Government and Sinn Fein over | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
national security. It is a ridiculous state of affairs that the | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
political party linked to the largest terrorist organisation | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
responsible for the most murders during the troubles has a veto, has | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
a beta of the fermentation of a policy that would give the innocent | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
victims access to proper investigation and the prospect of | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
justice. Surely in a democracy this is not right. This cannot be right. | :23:09. | :23:15. | |
That Sinn Fein are being handed a veto over proper investigator | :23:16. | :23:17. | |
process into the murders of the people who were killed by the | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
provisional IRA. It is nonsense and when Sinn Fein talk about respect, | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
when they talk about equality, while then let's have some respect for the | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
innocent victims of the IRA. And let's see the Stormont House | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
agreements taken forward and Sinn Fein's veto swept aside. | :23:38. | :23:47. | |
Thank you for giving way and is to apologise I will not be at the end | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
of the debate because Abdou attend a constituency event this evening in | :23:54. | :24:01. | |
memory of some victims. There is a need to build a new process that | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
allows an investigation into those cases that have already went through | :24:06. | :24:12. | |
the historical enquiries team. Otherwise they will be left only | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
with the review and not a new investigation. | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
I think the honourable member for his intervention and support for the | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
institutions that are proposed under the Stormont House Agreement. It is | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
the case that at present, and unfairness to the victims and | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
families who have waited a long time, that the proposal is that the | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
historical investigations unit would pick up where the H E T left. | :24:37. | :24:52. | |
Nevertheless, we support very clearly that if there is new | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
evidence or new evidence gathering techniques that have the potential | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
to lead to a prosecution in the cases already reviewed by the HCT, | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
then of course the historical investigations unit should examine | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
those cases and we have no objection. We believe that all | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
innocent victim should have access to justice and be treated equitably | :25:15. | :25:22. | |
and fairly. In drawing towards a conclusion, can I say that it is | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
important that the Government now proceeds with the Stormont House | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
Agreement. It is important that the Government gets on with publishing | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
the draft legislation to give the innocent victims and others be | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
opportunity to comment on this proposal so that at last we can | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
begin the process of establishing what has been agreed. This means | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
that the brokers will no longer solely be on what the states did. -- | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
focus. It will ship the bogeys and it will address the issues that have | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
already been raised in this house about the attempts to rewrite | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
history. Because it means that the IRA and the other terrorist | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
organisations will be put under the spotlight. What they did will be | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
examined and brought to the fore. It is wrong that our retired veterans | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
of the military and the police have to spend their last days looking | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
over their shoulders. We're still waiting for the knock at the door. | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
Whilst at the terrorists to sculpt in the shadows and destroyed | :26:27. | :26:28. | |
countless lives on the streets without a care in the world about | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
the prospect of being pursued for their crimes. That simply is not | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
right. The terrorists must be pursued. They must be made amenable | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
for their crimes. And therefore we do not believe and we will | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
vigorously oppose any attempt to grant an amnesty to any terrorist | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
organisation for what they've done. However, the time is come with the | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
Government to finally do something to protect the men and women who | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
served our country. They were not provided for in the 1998 agreement. | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
Whilst the terrorists well. Special provision was made for the | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
terrorists in 1998 in the form of the early release scheme. And other | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
concessions have been made since then that I outlined earlier in my | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
remarks. But nothing has been done for those who served the crime. And | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
I think that is wrong and I think it needs to be addressed. Therefore we | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
believe that the Government must give urgent consideration to | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
introducing a statute of limitations for soldiers and police officers who | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
face the prospect of prosecution in cases which, and this is very | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
important, in cases which have previously been the subject of a | :27:50. | :27:57. | |
full police investigations. That maybe Clare. We're talking about | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
cases that were previously the subject of police investigation. | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
Cases related to killings and deaths that occurred before 1998. And I | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
think the Government needs to look at this. It is wrong that our | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
veterans are sitting at home wondering if perhaps a third or a | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
fourth investigation is now going to take place into their case, simply | :28:21. | :28:30. | |
because some hot fast thinking make a quick buck human rights lawyer in | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
Belfast things it is a good idea to reopen this case. That is what is | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
going on. That is what is going on here. And therefore we believe it | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
has to be addressed. We can no longer ignore this and certainly, we | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
on the side of the house have not been ignoring it. And we believe | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
that a statute of limitation should not only apply to Northern Ireland | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
but consideration should also be given to other military deployments | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
including Iraq, Kosovo and Dagestan. This is not an amnesty. As each case | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
will previously been the subject of a thorough investigation. It is | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
appropriate and necessary measure to protect the men and women of our | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
Armed Forces from the kind of witch hunts that years after their | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
retirement have left many feeling that their service to this country | :29:21. | :29:28. | |
is neither respected nor valued. I apologise. Perhaps he will forgive | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
me a game for mentioning that in 2013 are published a paper with | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
policies change which address many of these issues and Dewsbury at the | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
absolute essence of it. In this very section that he's speaking about now | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
really touching on the core of it. Because what we are addressing this | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
what are human rights, what really they mean. There surely the rights | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
people to live in peace and dignity and not simply the rights of some to | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
persecute those who have tried to protect others. | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
I thank the honourable member for that very valid intervention. He is | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
a absolutely right and we appreciate the work that he has done in this | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
field and his commitment to its former comrades. In conclusion, we | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
are Northern Ireland... Of course. Just to clarify. His | :30:20. | :30:27. | |
proposal around the statute of limitations, would that involve a | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
wood-mac police officers are Northern Ireland as well? I should | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
said at the start I do welcome the debate and welcoming for bringing | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
this forward. The answer is yes. The police are | :30:41. | :30:48. | |
not covered by the provisions of the... And the concessions that have | :30:49. | :30:51. | |
been made to the terrorists. Neither they should be. We do not see any | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
moral or legal equivalent between the Armed Forces, the police and | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
illegal criminal terrorist organisations. We don't want them to | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
be treated the same but we believe that our police officers and our | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
soldiers and our veterans should be treated fairly and they are not | :31:07. | :31:13. | |
treated fairly. I repeat what I said in a recent debate in Westminster | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
will I referred to terrorist atrocities that have been committed | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
in Northern Ireland and across a busy United Kingdom. They include | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
the Kingsmill massacre, McGurk 's bar, the hotel bombing, bloody | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
Friday in Belfast. The city to coach Bob, the Birmingham pub bombings, | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
the narrow water atrocity were members of the Parachute Regiment | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
were truly cuts down in cold blood. The grand Hotel Brighton for our | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
very democracy was attacked by the provisional IRA. The police station, | :31:48. | :31:55. | |
the warmer more real, the bus bomb, the Shankill Road grey steel, and | :31:56. | :32:03. | |
many others that I will not list at that were equally atrocious. No one | :32:04. | :32:14. | |
can ever sanitise this horror. No one can ever sanitise this humanity. | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
There will be no rewriting of history that allows the exoneration | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
of the evil men and women who are out to commit these atrocities in | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
cold blood. These are acts of terrorism. And they can never be | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
regarded as anything other than acts of terrorism. I support the efforts | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
to bring a real and lasting peace to my country. I want that. My comrade | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
Sierra, some of whom served in our Armed Forces, others have seen | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
constituents cuts down in cold blood, we all want to see a | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
meaningful lasting peace in Northern Ireland. We want that for the next | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
generation as well as for our own. As a former soldier of the Ulster | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
Defence Regiment, proud to have served in that regiment, the largest | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
regiment of the British Army that fought alongside other military | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
units, alongside the Royal Ulster Constabulary with great courage and | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
at a huge cast during the longest running military operation in the | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
history of the British Army, operation Banner, we owe it to those | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
men and women. We over to them to protect them. | :33:23. | :33:29. | |
It is disturbed at the comments that were attributed to justice we're | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
whose looking at some of these legacy cases, when he talked about | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
the Ulster Defence Regiment are simply been setup to stop the | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
members from doing worse in society? I have to say that as a bomber | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
member of the Ulster Defence Regiment my father, who served for | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
over 25 years in the bud Regiment, my brother who served in that | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
regiment, comrade I patrolled alongside to work at stunning cold | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
blood by the provisional IRA, I feel insulted, I feel deeply insulted by | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
the suggestion by a justice of the High Court of Northern Ireland that | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
somehow the raison onto true of the Ulster Defence Regiment was to keep | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
people out of trouble. My only motivation was to stop trouble. My | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
only motivation was to bring to boot those who were engaged in trouble. I | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
only motivation was to protect the community. Including Mr justice | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
we're who were the targets of terrorism. This part is not prepared | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
to stand back and see other former comrade is vilified. We're not | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
prepared to stand back and see the security forces and the police | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
hounded for serving their country. And standing in the gap between | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
democracy and tyranny, they defended ours, now we must defend them. | :34:54. | :35:06. | |
Thank you very much, I appreciate the opportunity to speak in this | :35:07. | :35:14. | |
important debate, and can I be clear from the outset, Operation Banner, | :35:15. | :35:22. | |
as the House is aware, lasted for nearly 30 years. It was the longest | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
single continuous deployment of the Armed Forces in British military | :35:26. | :35:34. | |
history. During that period, over 250,000 people served. The Armed | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
Forces and the RUC combines lost over 1000 men and women to | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
terrorism. There were over 7000 awards for bravery and the Royal | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
Ulster Constabulary was rightly awarded the George Cross. So is this | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
government's Northern Ireland manifesto at the last election made | :35:56. | :36:04. | |
clear, we suck salute the remarkable dedication and courage of the RUC | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
and Armed Forces in defending the rule of law and ensuring the future | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
of the Northern Ireland would only ever be determined by democracy and | :36:14. | :36:21. | |
consent. Quite simply without their contribution, what we know today as | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
the Northern Ireland peace process would never have happened. All of us | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
across this House and throughout our United Kingdom owes them a huge debt | :36:32. | :36:41. | |
of gratitude. Just as we owe them an enormous debt for the work and | :36:42. | :36:43. | |
sacrifice they've made in other parts of the world referred to in | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
the motion before Rose, in Kosovo, in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Wherever | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
they operate we quite rightly regard our Armed Forces as the best in the | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
world. The government asks them to put their lives on the line in order | :37:01. | :37:08. | |
to defend us and our way of life. In return, they rightly expect the | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
fullest support from the government and that is something that this | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
government, through my right honourable friend the Defence | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
Secretary and his colleagues, is determined to provide. I'm very | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
grateful to my right honourable friend. Would he agree with me that | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
support should extend to the costs of the provision of engaging a | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
solicitor to advise those who have been sent letters by the MoD | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
inviting them to unburden themselves about the events of 30 or 40 years | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
ago in order to assist the police with their enquiries? I'm sure my | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
right honourable friend would not want those individuals to | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
incriminate themselves inadvertently or incriminate those they were | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
operating with, all those years ago. If he is correct in suggesting that | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
we should be supporting our veterans who served in Operation Banner | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
properly, then that must surely extend to finding the cost of | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
engaging solicitors to advise those individuals properly and | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
appropriately. Well, the government has always acknowledged its ongoing | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
duty of care to our former soldiers. Our policy is that where veterans | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
face allegations concerning actions they took in the course of their | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
duties, taxpayer funded legal support including council where | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
appropriate will be provided for as long as its needed and in addition | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
I'm advised the Ministry of Defence can assist veterans with welfare | :38:37. | :38:38. | |
support either directly or in partnership with other agencies such | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
as combat stress, depending on the veteran's individual needs | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
circumstances. We will never accept any kind... I will give way. This is | :38:47. | :38:54. | |
very important. He has said if allegations have been made. These | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
letters, as I understand it, contain no allegations but will be | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
disturbing nevertheless to these predominantly elderly gentleman that | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
receive them and they will need to have proper advice on whether to | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
unburden themselves in the way that is being suggested, or whether to | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
ignore those letters. I think that advice can only come from a | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
solicitor. My question to him is whether the MoD will provide the | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
costs, the provision of that legal advice? All I can say if I will | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
certainly take his point away and discussed that with colleagues from | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
the Ministry of Defence to seek clarity for him and also to seek | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
clarity for those who may be in receipt of those letters. But I | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
think I need to also be clear to the House that we will never accept any | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
kind of moral equivalence between those who sought to uphold the rule | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
of law and terrorists who sought to destroy it. For others, politically | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
motivated violence in Northern Ireland was never justify dashed to | :39:55. | :40:03. | |
-- for others. Whether it was carried out by Republicans | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
loyalists. We will never accept any attempt to place the state at the | :40:09. | :40:10. | |
heart of every atrocity or somehow to displace the responsibility for | :40:11. | :40:18. | |
where actions may lie. I give way. I agree wholeheartedly with the point | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
he's making, however, yesterday at the dispatch box, the Prime Minister | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
outlined what can only be described as the new gold standard for | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
investigations. She made four commitments and its recorded in | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
columns 100 and 104 Ross today's Hansard, where the system will | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
reflect that 90% of all killings were carried out by terrorists, that | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
there would be wrong -- would be wrong to treat terrorists more | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
favourably than soldiers or police officers, that the investigators | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
bodies have a duty to be fair, balanced and proportionate, and that | :40:54. | :40:55. | |
no disproportionate investigations will take place. How will the | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
government give effect to that gold standard that we welcome? The point | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
is the honourable gentleman raises are very much embodied within the | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
Stormont House agreement and the legacy bodies and institutions that | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
his honourable friend has referenced in his opening contribution, and if | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
I may I will come onto those issues in greater detail later on in my | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
speech. But I do want to underline that we will not accept attempts to | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
demonstrate the contribution of the security forces and seek to give any | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
kind of legitimacy to violence. But being the best in the world does | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
mean operating to the Verizon -- very highest standards. We expect | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
nothing less and I know our Armed Forces would not have it any other | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
way. As the noble lord spirit but it, the need to act lawfully is not | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
aside consideration for the Armed Forces, it's an integral part of the | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
ethos and training. We do believe in the rule of law and the police and | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
Armed Forces are charged with upholding the law. They cannot | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
operate above it or outside of it and where there is evidence of | :42:04. | :42:05. | |
criminality should be investigated without fear or favour. But in our | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
view what characterised the overwhelming majority of those who | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
served was discipline, integrity, restraint, professionalism and | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
bravery, and we should be proud of them. As my right honourable friend | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
Madame Deputy Speaker my writable friend... They were subject of | :42:31. | :42:38. | |
course to the rule of law and indeed there were soldiers, notably those | :42:39. | :42:46. | |
sergeants and the commander of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
who are actually charged with murder of the two civil rights campaigners | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
in 1981 and convicted. It was subject to the rule of law and many | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
were investigated and some were actually prosecuted and convicted. I | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
think that my honourable friend makes that point on the upholding of | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
the rule of law and obviously I will come back to what we judge the right | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
next steps in terms of balance, proportionality and indeed giving | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
effect to new arrangements to deal with the legacy issues of the past | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
embodied within the Stormont House agreement but Madame Deputy Speaker | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
the Prime Minister also made clear in the house yesterday, it's also | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
appalling when people try to make a business out of trying to drag our | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
brave troops through the courts. In that context the motion before the | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
House welcomes the government's decision to wind up the Iraq | :43:43. | :43:44. | |
Historic Allegations Team, following the solicitors' disciplinary | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
tribunal hearing and the consequent decision to strike off Phil Shiner. | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
This called into question the credibility of a large number of | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
IHAT's remaining caseload, which will now revert to the Royal Navy | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
police. To be clear, the government has a legal obligation to ensure | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
that criminal allegations against the Armed Forces are investigated, | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
but we also remain determined to ensure that our legal system is not | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
abused, as it clearly was by Mr Shiner. Falsely to impugn the | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
reputation of our Armed Forces and we should all support the devout -- | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
decisive action taken by my right honourable friend the Defence | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
Secretary in this case. My right honourable friend is making an | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
absolutely essential point about the rule of law as it must be practised | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
by honourable members of the legal profession and he is highlighting, | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
as I know he's a solicitor himself, the important role the solicitors | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
disciplinary tribunal did in finding this man guilty of deception of the | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
most abject kind. Would he please comment very slightly on how he | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
feels the shadow Attorney General can possibly still continue to | :44:59. | :45:06. | |
defend this extraordinary individual and claim, and yet claim, that she | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
will represent Her Majesty's government, should that party ever | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
be elected. It's important in that context to underline what the | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
solicitors disciplinary tribunal hearing resulted in two and that was | :45:21. | :45:28. | |
the decision to strike off Phil Shiner and the credibility of a | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
large number of IHAT's remaining caseload is now firmly called into | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
question and I think it's important that we should respect, recognise | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
and uphold that determination by the solicitor's disciplinary tribunal. I | :45:44. | :45:53. | |
thank the Secretary of State for giving way because he's touching on | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
a very important point of transparency and fairness in all of | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
these investigations. The public prosecutor in Northern Ireland was | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
formerly the solicitor for Sinn Fein. He handed in the names of the | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
on the run people on behalf of Sinn Fein and the government dealt with | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
that matter and of course this matter was brought to the attention | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
of the Northern Ireland affairs committee when it investigated the | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
case. Does he agree with me that given a perceived conflict of | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
interest that the director would clearly have in his knowledge about | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
senior Republicans and their involvement in very serious and | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
organised crimes, should resign himself now from all further parts | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
of this matter? I'm afraid I don't agree with the honourable gentleman | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
in that regard. I know that the Public Prosecution Service of | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
Northern Ireland has pursued prosecutions against a number of | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
individuals for serious terrorist crimes during the Troubles and | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
continues to do so, as well as obviously pursuing other cases. And | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
I think it is wrong to suggest that the PPS is in some way only applying | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
on one side all the other. I know that there are strong feelings in | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
this regard and I recognise that, but I think it would be wrong to | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
personalise this in this way and it's important in terms of upholding | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
the rule of law that we should also uphold the independence of the | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
police and the independence of prosecutors beyond that as well | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
stocked so I think it is important to frame it in that context but also | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
recognising yes, the strongly held views that people may have. I'm | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
grateful to my right honourable friend. But will he convey a message | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
to this individual to say that sending out letters to organs of the | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
press in this country that any criticism of him will be met by | :47:49. | :47:55. | |
legal action is completely unacceptable. He's publicly | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
accountable. He's publicly paid. If we want to criticise him, we are | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
going to criticise him, and he is not going to resort to law to try to | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
shut down newspapers which report our criticism. There's always the | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
right of complete free speech in this House and clearly the right | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
that we uphold democracy and the freedom of the press. I think we do | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
though need to be careful in our comments when we seek to personalise | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
matters. We know the consequences of that from the past. Therefore, | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
whilst again I recognise the strongly held views that are held, I | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
do underline that sense of independence of the prosecution | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
service, the independence of the police, that is something that we | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
should absolutely treasure, whilst of course holding people to account | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
and being able to comment publicly, and that freedom that we do have, | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
that freedom of the rule of law and the importance of that, but equally | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
the freedom of... The freedom of the press and the freedom of this place | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
to debate matters robustly and vigorously. I know that there are | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
many members who want to contribute in this debate, so I will take some | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
further interventions, but I would like to make some further progress. | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
As many right honourable members are well aware, I will make some | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
progress. Addressing the legacy of the pass has been one of the most | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
difficult issues since the Belfast Agreement nearly 19 years ago -- the | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
legacy of the past. What is clear today, as the debate highlights, is | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
the current structures in place are simply not delivering for anyone, | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
including victims and survivors, on all sides, who suffered most during | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
the Troubles. The rawness of the continuing pain and emotion of | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
families and survivors is stark and yet the need to make progress in | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
this area is absolutely clear. The legacy of the past continues to cast | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
a shadow over our society in Northern Ireland. It retains the | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
ability to destabilise politics and it has the capacity to be used by | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
those who wish to fuel division and promote terrorism, to achieve their | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
objectives. Of course, people are always going to retain their own | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
views on the past, which will be shaped by their own experiences of | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
it and I acknowledge the government's view of the troubles | :50:20. | :50:21. | |
will not be shared by everyone, nor vice versa. But where we should | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
strive to reach consensus is on structures needed to address it and | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
in a way that helps move Northern Ireland forward. | :50:31. | :50:44. | |
The office of police ombudsman has to deal with allegations of | :50:45. | :50:54. | |
historical... The PSN I have two devote substantial resorts as to | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
dealing with historical cases. Taken as a whole, I have to recognise | :51:00. | :51:08. | |
concerns that the current mechanisms focus does what with the cases | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
involving the state. As a result leaving many victims of terrorism | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
feeling ignored. None of this is to criticise any individuals, not | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
please the police and prosecuting individuals, all of whom uphold the | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
law independently of Government and I support them in their difficult | :51:24. | :51:31. | |
work. We do see the shocking case of a police officer about to go to | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
work, about to serve their community discovering that a device had been | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
planted underneath their car. The consequences of that could be | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
absolutely horrific and I think it underlines the bravery, the | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
determination, the sheer public service that officers within the PSN | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
I and others do day in day out to uphold the rule of law, to keep our | :51:59. | :52:06. | |
communities safe and the shallowness, the evil of terrorism. | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
That would seek to undermine that. And I know the house absolutely | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
would underline that strong message of support to them and the work that | :52:14. | :52:21. | |
they do. Father it is a recognition that is widely accepted that we need | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
new and better structures for addressing these issues. The status | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
quo is not sustainable. The Government has a duty to seek better | :52:30. | :52:32. | |
outcomes for victims and survivors and we need legally robust | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
mechanisms that enable us to comply with their international obligations | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
to investigate criminal allegations. The Stormont House Agreement was | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
about that in 2014 following 11 weeks of intensive cross-party talks | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
with the UK Government, the five largest parties in the Northern | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
Ireland assembly, and the Irish Government on matters falling within | :52:54. | :52:55. | |
their responsibility. The agreement contains the most far-reaching set | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
of proposals yet for addressing the legacy of Northern Ireland's | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
troubled past. The historical investigations unit, the independent | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
commission for information retrieval, the limitation and | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
reconciliation group and an oral history archive. A number of | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
different options were discussed during those talks. Amnesty were | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
quickly dismissed by all the participants and are not the policy | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
of this Government. We believe that the so-called legacy body set out in | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
the Stormont House Agreement continued to provide the most | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
effective way of making progress on this hugely sensitive but hugely | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
important issue. Delivering the Stormont House Agreement including | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
the legacy bodies and also reforming legacy inquests was a key Northern | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
Ireland manifesto pledge for the Conservative Government at the last | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
election. And we remain committed to this. But in doing so, I am also | :53:52. | :54:00. | |
committed to ensure the need to ensure that former soldiers and | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
police opposite is not unfairly treated or disproportionately | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
investigated. That is why any legislation we bring forward will | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
explicitly set out that all of these bodies, including the historical | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
investigations unit will be under legal obligations to operate in ways | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
that are fair, balanced and crew should be proportionate. | :54:23. | :54:30. | |
I will give way. The house will be greatly reassured with the | :54:31. | :54:37. | |
Government's concern about the lack of proportionality on path of the | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
authorities in Northern Ireland but can't they understand that the | :54:44. | :54:45. | |
disparity between the two is overwhelming. One whereabouts of | :54:46. | :54:52. | |
terrorists hiding in the shadows dressed not in military uniform. The | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
other trying to enforce the Queens peace in Northern Ireland. And all | :54:57. | :55:04. | |
the incidences involving them are meticulously recorded. You cannot go | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
to the National Archives and find the IRA's records of the people they | :55:10. | :55:17. | |
brutally murdered. I absolutely recognise that sense of | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
justice and the need for justice on all sides, which I think is | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
absolutely underpinned in terms of what my honourable friend has just | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
said. And yes, there are meticulously records. Meticulous | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
records of the investigation of cases of terrorists that should be | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
looked up properly. That is part and parcel of what I am saying on the | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
establishment of the story go investigations unit. The terrorists | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
were responsible for 90% of all deaths in the troubles and any | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
investigative processes half to reflect that. | :55:52. | :56:01. | |
I will give way. Would my right honourable friend, who is the most | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
tolerant about taking interventions, except that if 10% of the people | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
killed were killed by security forces, bearing in mind that all the | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
other 90% of killings were murderers, even if one in 20, even | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
if as many as one in ten of the killings by security forces were | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
murder, which is exceptionally unlikely, a proportionate rating | :56:27. | :56:33. | |
would be won in 100, not one in ten. That is absolutely why the Stormont | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
House Agreement had at its heart those messages that have already | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
delivered of fairness, balance, of proportionality. And its caseload | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
will contain some of the most not warriors atrocities resulting in the | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
deaths of our Armed Forces. Such is at one point in 1979 by Cawley in | :56:54. | :57:01. | |
1998. They will look at cases in chronological order meaning that all | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
cases will be investigated, so there will be no prioritising. Any | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
investigation would include specific tests that must be met in order that | :57:14. | :57:20. | |
a previously completed case is reopened for investigation. This | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
will mean specifically that the new and credible evidence that was not | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
previously available to the authorities is needed before the age | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
site you will reopen any closed case. We're also looking at ways of | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
ensuring that where prosecutors do take place, terrorists are not | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
treated more favourably than former soldiers and police officers put up | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
the body these will be time limited to five years to ensure that this | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
process will not be open-ended, helping Northern Ireland to move | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
forward. Turning to the Stormont House Agreement into detailed | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
legislation has been and continues to be a long and necessarily complex | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
process but a great deal of progress has been made in building the | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
consensus necessary to bring legislation before this house. And I | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
believe that with hard work on all sides the outstanding areas of | :58:14. | :58:15. | |
disagreement are entirely Bridger bowl. In September I sit at my | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
intention to move the process to a more public bays. I had hoped that | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
this would have taken place by now but a continuing lack of consensus | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
and the political situation at Stormont have delayed this from | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
happening. But I remain committed to giving the public a say in these | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
proposed bodies and loading confidence in them from across the | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
community. So I want to take that forward as soon as possible after | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
the Northern Ireland assembly election a week ago, so that we can | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
make progress quickly. But any approach to the past must be there, | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
balanced and proportionate. It must have victims and survivors at its | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
heart and it must be consistent with our obligations to those who served | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
and into many cases, sacrificed so much to bring about the relative | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
peace and stability that Northern Ireland enjoys today. | :59:10. | :59:21. | |
May I congratulate the Secretary of State for an absolute the impression | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
presentation and I think you spoke for all of us in this house and | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
outside in his words. His words were right, powerful and important and | :59:30. | :59:35. | |
they were proportionate. I also say that today we may be speaking of the | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
past but the issues that we're discussing other not gone away the | :59:40. | :59:46. | |
past may be... Those things may have happened but there are still | :59:47. | :59:48. | |
problems today and the incidence referred to earlier one today | :59:49. | :59:56. | |
yesterday with a bomb exploding shows us, reminds us that what we do | :59:57. | :59:59. | |
today has a relevance. We're not just looking backwards, we're | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
looking at the current situation and we have to look forward to the | :00:04. | :00:06. | |
limitation of Stormont House to ensure that there are no more | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
incidences like this and that terrifying litany of horror that the | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
right honourable gentleman rightly enunciated and placed on record. We | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
must never begin to approach that scale of terror and horror again. | :00:20. | :00:27. | |
All of us are united, surely, in about. Yesterday it was said that | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
the police officer had a very lucky escape will do better is the reality | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
of it. This date, today, those people who have worn the uniform of | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
the lines on the -- who put their lives on the line... We actually | :00:43. | :00:52. | |
welcome the DUP motion. The wording is very sensible. How could we argue | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
with the fact that all processes for investigating and prosecuting legacy | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
cases are balanced and fair? We would not oppose that. We support | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
that. We think it is absolutely right about pink Barbie from me to | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
criticise the wording of the DUP motion but I think that when the | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
Secretary of State added the word abortion as well that was | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
significant. It is also important that we raise these matters on the | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
floor of the house. There is still a tendency in some parts to think that | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
what happens in Northern Ireland happens in the wings rather than on | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
the centrestage. There are still some people who think that Northern | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
Ireland is settled. It is over, it is finished. And it is a small part | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
of the United Kingdom and a long way geographically, politically, from us | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
here in Westminster. I pay credit to all members, all members to bring | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
Northern Ireland should business to the floor of the house was it must | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
be done. We have an absolute duty to consider these matters at every | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
opportunity and on many occasions I've heard speeches on the subject | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
in this house which would stand the test of any of the great | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
parliamentary speeches and we've ever heard. It is that portable stop | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
it is crucial issue. Today is an odd day in that the eyes of the | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
political establishment may be on other places would have. I think it | :02:10. | :02:21. | |
is it is almost irresistible to draw the house's attention to the extreme | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
irony of today's times of London newspaper which describes the | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
renewables heat incentive as wasting ?450 million in GB. A year, as its | :02:31. | :02:45. | |
rugby set by the honourable member. The temptation is there and it | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
cannot be denied that he was the person who came up with this idea | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
and I have to say that those of us here have around Scherer of | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
responsibility for not making more of an issue of it at the time. And | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
the almost... We begin to understand why this was so attractive and | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
Stormont at the particular time. I see from today's paper that Mr Hume | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
is the European chairman of US supplier of wood pellets I leave | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
those words hiding in the air, slowly smouldering in the Drax power | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
station is tonnes and tonnes of Canadian forests are shipped up, | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
pelleted and brought over here. But we must move on. For only one I | :03:33. | :03:40. | |
happily give way. The revolution in today's Times, | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
outlandish as it might seem, hasn't led to a crisis of Government here, | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
hasn't led to in-depth investigation teams by the BBC to try and | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
establish guilt before any investigation has taken place. And | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
for whatever reason there seems to be double standards with some | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
broadcasters when dealing with waste of public money. | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
How tempting it would be to follow the honourable gentleman down that | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
Primrose Path that he is leading the innocent parliamentarian, but I fear | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
I have known him longer than 30 and I were in the house and I am able on | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
this occasion to resist his blandishments. Which I will do so. | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
However, I will also, on the subject of resistance I will give way. | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
When the same is Hume Tech came to Northern Ireland 120 words were | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
taken out of it which was the cap and that was the reason we've now | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
got Stormont. May I crave the house's indulgence | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
and apologise for actually diverging us from what is an extremely | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
important issue? As we are talking about issues of Northern Ireland and | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
March the 2nd is crucial and quite clearly there is a causal linkage | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
there, I think it is quite reasonable to mention it. It is | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
equally reasonable to move on from that. Can I just say, as I was | :05:11. | :05:19. | |
saying earlier, we are not opposing the motion. Can we try to get some | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
facts right? There was an enormous amount of statistical evidence that | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
has been thrown about. We heard yesterday the Prime Minister at the | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
dispatch box making comments about the various percentages and | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
proportion numbers. The PSNI as of this money said that they are | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
investigating 1118 cases that are being currently investigated of | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
which 530 are attributed to republican paramilitaries, 271 to | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
loyalist paramilitaries, 354 to security forces and 33 unknown. | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
That the percentage of 32%. In many ways that is not the issue. It's not | :05:59. | :06:08. | |
just the fact there are 55 detectives working today, in four | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
teams, on this very issue, but it's also the fact that once we start to | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
break these things down and say this site with more responsible than | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
that, we can make those points and as politicians we have a duty to do | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
so, but the past has to be looked at objectively and in terms of utter | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
clarity. We had to investigate every aspect. We heard the honourable | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
gentleman saying there may be a tiny percentage, that's his analysis, of | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
murders committed by people wearing uniform. Horrifying though that | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
sounds. Even if there were, with the higher duty that people who wear the | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
Queen's uniform have, each one of those must be investigated. That's | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
the key thing. Everybody, everything must be investigated. There can be | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
no concealed areas or untouched dark corners, we have to look into every | :06:59. | :07:06. | |
single part of the last 30 years. The Shadow minister will accept that | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
one of the only places in Northern Ireland of a miscarriage of justice | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
that resulted in people who have been charged with murder being | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
released and exonerated were three former Ulster Defence Regiment | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
soldiers known as the Armagh four case, and that alone removed from | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
the books about 25% of the allegations against the Ulster | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
Defence Regiment and that shoot -- that too should be reflected. I bow | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
to the honourable gentleman, he knows far more about this subject | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
than I, and he lived through it in a way that I can never claim to have | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
that approximate relationship with. That's not necessarily the issue. | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
It's not about whether a group of people were removed from a | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
particular list, a particular statistical and non-Malay, what we | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
are talking about a is firstly a fair and proportionate investigation | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
into every aspect of the Troubles, secondly, how best to progress | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
matters to take us forward to bring the Stormont House agreement | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
forward, and thirdly and most important, to build on the peace | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
process that has as its central component of that coming to terms, | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
one second, it's not me that's popular, it's the words that the | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
honourable members have to say that are needed to be heard by the House, | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
but can we please try to concentrate on that issue, which is why on this | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
side of the House we endorse and support the words that have been | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
made in the DUP motion. I believe the honourable gentleman for | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
Aldershot was on his feet first. I'm grateful to him for giving way. | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
There needs to be Fenners, but will he understand there's a widespread | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
and growing feeling across the house that these investigations in | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
Northern Ireland are not being fair, that they are disproportionate, and | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
whilst Mike right honourable friend the Secretary of State said we have | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
a free press in this country the fact is that the law firm of | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
Campbell and care are sending out letters to newspapers in this | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
country is saying that if they report any criticism which they | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
perceive to be critical of the impartiality of the authorities in | :09:20. | :09:21. | |
Northern Ireland, legal proceedings will pursue. Therefore that which I | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
am saying in this House is not being reported newspapers in my | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
constituency, because of fear of prosecution from Northern Ireland. | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
Therefore will he agree that if fairness is to be seen to be being | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
carried out in Northern Ireland, then they've got to tolerate | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
criticism of the way they are conducting these investigations. The | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
honourable gentleman has ventilated those points and made them again and | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
his voice will be heard. We are not here to kick the legal profession, | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
although that's all so tempting. Why are here hopefully to move on from | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
that. I think the issue with that particular individual who has been | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
named, that was then. What we're talking about today is something far | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
more important. It's going forward. I give way. I thank him for giving | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
way and would he agree with me that the most pressing issue in all of | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
this debate is the need for not only temperate language but on the far | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
side of the selection that not only do we have political institutions up | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
and running but that there are parallel negotiations that bring a | :10:32. | :10:33. | |
conclusion to all of this, because the one thing that victims wanted | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
closure, because there's too many people in pain in Northern Ireland | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
and young people want to move on and they want to move on in terms of | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
dealing with health, education and the economy, because those are the | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
pressing issues that are facing is day and daily. Not for the first | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
time the honourable lady from South Downs speaks an enormous amount of | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
words that should be our watchword words that should be our watchword | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
for the rest of this debate today. We have to move forward. The point I | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
would make is that there cannot be to the future without a complete | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
settlement of the issues of the past. There has to be the closure. | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
There has to be the investigation. There has to be the disinfectant of | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
sunlight, to quote a phrase. We have to move on sure and certain in the | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
knowledge we've done everything to investigate the past. There is so | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
many people who I want to hear from and I know that everybody here wants | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
to, can I just say in closing that Erik Persson -- absolutely on this | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
side of the House we do have great respect in those who serve and have | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
served in our Armed Forces and who take pride in the work that they | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
have done. On those very, very few occasions when there may be the | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
possibility of action outside the law, those claims must be | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
investigated fully. It's crucial to say that those people who wear a | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
uniform would want that that to be investigated. They would want the | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
case. Nobody would want to CNN exemption for members of the Armed | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
Forces. Having said that, a great deal of sense has been spoken today. | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
There will be more, no doubt. Can we please try to see that to get | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
through March the 2nd, I very much hope the new Assembly will be up and | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
running and Stormont House can come forward and I hope in future we'll | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
be having debates about the great and glorious future of Northern | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
Ireland, which we'll be talking to a prosperous, comfortable, rich | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
economy of people couldn't who have pride in that extraordinary part of | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
the world and not looking backwards and forwards to a real glorious | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
future. Everything a person in Northern Ireland, not only deserves | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
that right to peace and prosperity, but they have earned that right, and | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
I hope this House will give them a fair following wind and their | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
support. I thank you. Madame Deputy Speaker I'd like to congratulate the | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
DUP on this motion and also particularly the right honourable | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
member for Lagan Valley for what was a very impressive speech and opening | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
of the motion. I'd like to thank the Secretary of State for what he said | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
and as always it's a pleasure to follow the honourable manner for | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
Ealing North. I think his emphasis on the peace process and the future | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
was very welcome. Now Madame Deputy Speaker, the right honourable member | :13:28. | :13:29. | |
for Lagan Valley mentioned the figures involved, so I won't repeat | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
them. But he also made the point I think that there can be no legal or | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
moral equivalence between what the terrorists did and what happened to | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
the military, who were deployed in support of the police, acted under | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
the rule of law and were subject to very tight military controls and | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
codes, including the yellow book. They were mainly young men and some | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
women who never asked to go to Northern Ireland, but were deployed | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
there, and showed incredible professionalism, huge restraint at | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
times when they were under great stress and provocation, but at all | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
times they held their nerve and the reputation of the British military | :14:14. | :14:15. | |
as a consequence was enhanced around the world. Every single incident | :14:16. | :14:23. | |
involving killing or injuring by the military was fully investigated at | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
the time. There were regimental investigations, there were | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
investigations by the military police. In virtually every case | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
there were investigations by the RUC and by the civilian authorities. I | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
would say that I don't think any other countries' Armed Forces in the | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
world would have shown the restraint and professionalism that our Armed | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
Forces showed, and when mistakes were made they were called to order. | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
Indeed, in the case of the killing of the two civil rights campaigners | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
Michael Lumb and Andrew Murray, three sergeants and one officer from | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders were charged in the case of two of | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
the sergeants with murder and were sentenced to life imprisonment, | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
that's Sergeant John Bernard Sergeant Stanley Hathaway, said | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
Sergeant, chestnut, was charged with manslaughter and sentenced to four | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
years and the officer in charge of the platoon, who wasn't actually | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
present at the farmhouse of the killings, covered up what happened | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
and was subsequently charged and given a suspended sentence and | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
resigned his commission, Captain Andrew Snowball, and it was a case | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
which I think showed that whether military stepped of line, they were | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
investigated and if charges were appropriate those charges were | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
brought. I give way. I thank my honourable friend for making this | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
point. It's absolutely essential that the record of this House | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
carries on the fact the Royal of the -- the Royal Ulster Constabulary, | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
under services to Her Majesty's forces in Northern Ireland, when | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
they were acting under operational banner, acted under the highest | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
human rights compliant record in any dispute anywhere in the world. That | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
is without any challenge whatsoever. 30,000 officers carrying personal | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
weapons and the minimal amount of illegal discharge of those weapons, | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
that's a miracle given the provocation going on, with murders | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
daily in our province. I'm going to remove a couple of paragraphs my | :16:30. | :16:31. | |
speech because he said what I was going to say. Can we fast forward to | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
the current situation, because the right on remember for Lagan Valley | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
outlined the thought process and especially the veterans that have | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
now been arrested as part of the DPP's vendetta against some of these | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
veteran soldiers. I want to refer to the case of Dennis Hutchings, which | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
I did refer to in an adjournment debate that I was allowed to present | :16:57. | :17:03. | |
on the 13th of December. In the case of Dennis Hutchings, he was deployed | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
to Northern Ireland with his regiment the lifeguards, and they | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
were in an area, where levels of disturbance were particularly high, | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
in Dungannon and Armagh, and all patrols were told to take special | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
care. The regiment had suffered a number of shooting incidents. One of | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
them actually fatal. On the 4th of June, a patrol was actually ambushed | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
by a group of young men, who were in the process of transferring weapons | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
into a car in the village of aggression. They were found upon -- | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
fired upon, words exchanged, a number of people arrested and a | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
quantity of arms were recovered. On the following dates Corporal Dennis | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
Hutchings, who was actually mentioned in dispatches for his | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
brave leadership, led a patrol into the area and their aim was to locate | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
further arms caches near that village. They chanced on John Pat | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
Cunningham, who was challenged to give himself up. He actually behaved | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
in a way that was suspicious. The control believed they were | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
threatened and they opened fire and we know there was a tragic outcome | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
because John Pat Cunningham was killed. Now this was fully | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
investigated by the Lifeguards, by the military police, by the RUC, and | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
by the DPP. All four members were completely exonerated. What then | :18:26. | :18:32. | |
happened I believe completely beggars belief. We go fast forward | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
to 2011. Dennis Hutchings was called in by the PSNI historical enquiries | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
team. He was fully investigated, a very comprehensive investigation | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
took place. He cooperated fully in all of this. He was told at the end | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
of it that no further action could take place and thing he could get on | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
with his life, he could look after his grandchildren, his | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
great-grandchildren, and he could basically enjoy his retirement. Now | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
we afford to 2015, there was a dawn raid on the major's house, he's been | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
in very poor health recently, he was arrested and taken to Northern | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
Ireland for four days' questioning and charged with attempted murder, | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
charges he vehemently denied. After 42 years, there were no witnesses, | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
we have members of the platoon, the other three members in the patrol | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
have died, all the forensic evidence was looked at at the time, that has | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
all disappeared, how can he get a fair trial now? The first thing I | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
learned at law school was that any criminal case depends critically on | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
evidence, on credible evidence, on corroborated evidence, and indeed on | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
someone then getting a fair trial. He cannot get a fair trial in these | :19:47. | :19:48. | |
circumstances. I will give way. Would he agree with the dimmer is | :19:49. | :20:02. | |
great concern and we are told that there are new ways of looking at | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
evidence, so rather than new evidence, people are trying to find | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
just new ways of trying to research it. Does he not think that is wrong? | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
I agreed because I'm going to come onto that in my final points in a | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
moment but I think this case does illustrate that it was fully | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
investigated at the time, it was looked at by every available | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
authority and organisation and it was closed down at the time. Having | :20:29. | :20:37. | |
to reopen cases now, what it does, it is revisionism. It is trying to | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
rewrite history. Atlanta look at what happened then through the lens | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
of 2017. Where we have a whole new emphasis on human rights and | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
different standards. I find this perverse, wrong and completely | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
unacceptable. I think it compliments entirely the | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
point that was made by the honourable lady. It is absolutely | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
right that we've got to move on but in moving on we've got to allow | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
those who have served to move on and on occasion like this where it is so | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
obvious, that so clear that justice has not only been done but seem to | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
be done multiple times, surely, be moving on can become actively. | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
And if one that actually looks at what happened to the IRA and the | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
Parliament the trees their sole aim was to murder, maim and disrupt | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
communities. They didn't investigate crimes murders. They celebrated | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
killings that they took part in. There were not subject to the Geneva | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
Convention or any other rule of all the British law on torture. Let's | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
see some examples very quickly. What about the military intelligence | :21:52. | :21:53. | |
liaison officer who was abducted in May 19 77. Tortured, brutally | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
tortured, he was awarded a posthumous George Cross and killed. | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
He's one of nine IRA victims whose body has been recovered. What about | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
the corporals who chanced on an Iranian funeral in March 19 88. They | :22:12. | :22:20. | |
were dragged out of their car. -- IRA funeral. One of the | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
extraordinary pictures was that one of Father Alec Reed issuing the last | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
rites. In the three Scottish brothers who were abducted from a | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
pop in 1971. They were off duty, they were unarmed, they were | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
abducted and tortured and no one has ever been convicted. I will draw my | :22:38. | :22:45. | |
remarks to a conclusion now. I think what we have now got to do. Got bad | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
weather moving forward. The only way of moving it forward is for the | :22:49. | :22:59. | |
Secretary of State, is for ministers to make it absolutely categorically | :23:00. | :23:08. | |
clear that these cases will now be closed subject to the arrival or the | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
discovery of brand-new compelling evidence. I think anything less than | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
this is going to lead to many of those, and a figure was given | :23:19. | :23:28. | |
270,000, veterans. It would be a betrayal of these veterans and it | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
would be an appalling scar on HMG. I think that we have a way forward and | :23:33. | :23:43. | |
I urge ministers to take it. Thank you. Can I put on record right | :23:44. | :23:51. | |
at the start of the SNP's acknowledgement and appreciation of | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
the efforts of our police and Armed Forces personnel wherever they | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
serve. Our safety is a luxury port with their dedication to duty and | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
constant vigilance. I can appreciate that my opinion on this is not | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
always shared by everyone else and that there were people in many | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
places who feel that they have good reason to disagree with their | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
sentiments. But can I also say at this point, it has been mentioned | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
previously be planting of a bomb outside a police officer's house is | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
completely unacceptable. Not only was the officer's life threatened | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
just today but the lives of others were touched by it, too. Given the | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
nature of the area where the opposite lives I expect children | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
play in that street. And it is beyond unforgivable to want a child | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
does not lie. I can't get inside the mind of anyone who wants a return to | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
violence in Northern Ireland and I cannot believe that there will be | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
any great support for them anywhere. Great praise is instead due to the | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
politicians and community activists who have brought Northern Ireland | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
away from those dark shadows and headed towards a better future. Many | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
of them I will not have heard of and some are no longer with us but it | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
must have taken great courage for enemies to lay aside their greatest | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
enmity and begin the corporation that we see now. I have huge respect | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
for those I have met to serve here and those I've met who serve in | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
Stormont and a few I've met to councillors and community leaders, | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
who have the courage, the vision and the belief in the future to be able | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
to say to their opponents, I know what you have to do and where you | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
had to stand to serve your community and I appreciate that you give me | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
the same courtesy. Where can we find common ground? There is a future to | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
be had from the people servants have that attitude. Not that everyone is | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
lovely to each other, I hasten to add, but their leaders enough to | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
know where that fertile future lies. I think there is a certainty that | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
the people and politicians of Northern Ireland can craft a future | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
which will stand in Tasman to the courage shown and the personal risks | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
taken these past couple of decades. In that they not think that the SNP | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
position is clear. We believe that the people of Northern Ireland have | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
the capacity, the intelligence and the gumption to make a better this | :26:22. | :26:28. | |
thing is that than we can. We have confidence in the institutions of | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
the police and judiciary to serve the people and confidence in | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
Stormont to reform them if they are not serving well. We certainly also | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
have confidence in the people of Northern Ireland to reform the pants | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
off any politician who does not have the ability, courage or energy to | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
serve them well. I can get why this motion is before us to day and I | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
certainly appreciate the concerns of soldiers who served in operation | :26:56. | :26:57. | |
Banner and are now retired. There is no form of polite words, trite | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
phrases are empty passages that puts any of this nicely to bed. The | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
resolution to those concerned lies in the institutions in Belfast. The | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
MOD has a duty which I think it has promised to live up to two ensure | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
that any of its current of former employees who face legal action as a | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
result of what they did during the service is adequately represented. | :27:22. | :27:23. | |
Others believe that the minister was able to reassure us that the | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
commitment given by the MOD at the end of last year remains in place | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
and by his assurance that is taxpayer funded legal support will | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
be provided where needed. That is very welcome indeed. She mentioned | :27:36. | :27:45. | |
institutions in Northern Ireland. Would she accept that had it not | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
been for the bravery and sacrifice of British troops through the whole | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
of that period who helped in effect to hold the reins of that one day a | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
peaceful solution could be arrived at, those institutions would not | :28:00. | :28:07. | |
actually be available to us today? I did place on record right at the | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
subarachnoid mint and precession of the tremendous efforts made by | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
police and Armed Forces personnel wherever they served and certainly | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
their contribution to peace has been a big part of where we are today. I | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
wanted to mention that the investigation of incidences is a | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
matter for serviceable and four Courts martial and have no | :28:33. | :28:34. | |
particular knowledge of those systems but the duty to ensure | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
fairness and impartiality lies in the MOD. I welcome the Secretary of | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
State's comments regarding legal requirements very much. Prof Ernest, | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
balance and proportionality. The duty to ensure fairness will lie | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
with the new Stormont ministers and with the Attorney General and judges | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
who sit in the courts over there. We must trust them to take due | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
cognizance of all the circumstances that they find themselves in and of | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
the evidence that is presented to them and we must trust them to take | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
decisions on the best interests of the people that they serve. If we do | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
not trust them we will be denying the legacy of all those who worked | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
and to Labour at to craft a better future for Northern Ireland and to | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
drag the communities that are away from the violence that has plagued | :29:29. | :29:42. | |
them. I congratulate the DUP and in particular the honourable member for | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
Lang Burley for bringing this motion before us. And for his very eloquent | :29:48. | :29:55. | |
words but also for his gallant servers along with several of his | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
parliamentary colleagues in what was by far the most dangerous regiments | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
serving in the British Army as a part-time member of the UDR. I am | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
deeply conscious of time with many members wishing to get inside will | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
be very brief. My honourable friend the member for North West Norfolk | :30:19. | :30:25. | |
has made such a case for very much point I would like to make judges | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
want to briefly echo two or three of his points before coming on to the | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
other side emotion. Corporal Major Denis Hutchens when he served in the | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
lifeguards by chance was in the same squadron as a very close friend of | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
mine. Who was an officer at command of the other troops. Ready says he | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
was one of the best senior NCOs she ever served with. She is absolutely | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
astounded at the way this man is being treated. I have a constituent | :30:57. | :31:03. | |
who has written to me in the last fortnight who is being investigated | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
now for events in 1976. That is 41 years ago. I listen for luck athlete | :31:09. | :31:16. | |
what my right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary said and | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
I have a huge respect for him. I asked him to understand that there | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
is nobody on this side of the house doesn't believe in the rule of law | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
but integral to the rule of law is confidence in the criminal justice | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
system. The problem was trying to British soldiers in the same way we | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
pursue former terrorists is there is no prospect of, after all these | :31:42. | :31:51. | |
years, are finding new evidence in most cases. He witnesses of diet, | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
and the point about parity is not just that it is morally repugnant to | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
compare killings by the security forces to killings by terrorist | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
organisations unless there is real evidence that it is criminal, but it | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
is also the practical fact that several colleagues have already | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
made, that the other organisations we were up against, the | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
paramilitaries on both sides, did not keep records. There was not the | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
same scope for pursuing them. I firmly believe and my honourable | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
friend has made the case so strongly about not waste time back repeating | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
it, that the only way of resolving this is by putting in a clear | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
transparent mechanism to ensure that no case can be pursued to charging | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
with out to clear evidence that new evidence has been uncovered. Unless | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
has been new evidence uncovered it should not be possible after all | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
these years to bring fresh cases forward. | :32:52. | :33:05. | |
Thank you. I am increasingly worried because 38 years ago I gave my words | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
to two men under my command after they'd been involved in a fit tally | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
to shooting that if they went to court, and were charged with | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
manslaughter and they were proved not guilty they would never hear | :33:23. | :33:29. | |
anything again. I gave my word and it looks like my word may not be | :33:30. | :33:39. | |
worth a thick if this continues. I am grateful but I think a lot of | :33:40. | :33:47. | |
us on the side of the house share The View that fresh evidence, a | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
transparent procedure for showing that fresh evidence should be a | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
requirement for these cases going forward. Want to move on to the | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
other side of the motion which is before us. And that for a moment at | :34:03. | :34:10. | |
some of those other operations. All the difference between Northern | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
Ireland and the situation with the other three operations mentioned is | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
that in Northern Ireland we were there an aide to the civil power. In | :34:20. | :34:29. | |
the case of really a ruck, Kosovo and Afghanistan, there arose very | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
little civil power. But some buyers there was none at all. -- Iraq. I | :34:33. | :34:44. | |
was just not much yes. At some point there was no civil power at all. My | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
right honourable friend, the Northern Ireland Secretary, said in | :34:50. | :34:57. | |
the context after he just mentioned the importance of upholding the law. | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
We have to be clear what it is we mean by the law. When we're dealing | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
with these other operations. The fact is that when you have just | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
captured a city as we had in Basra there was no civil law. In conflicts | :35:12. | :35:20. | |
throughout the 20th-century it was always accepted that there is only | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
one law that matters on the battlefield which is humanitarian | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
law grounded in the Geneva Convention. | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
In the last 15 or 20 years, there's been a creeping process whereby a | :35:36. | :35:42. | |
second form of law, human rights law, has started to be introduced | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
into the picture. When I served on the Defence Select Committee a | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
number of organisations, including the International Red Cross, | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
deprecated this. They made it clear that humanitarian law, which is | :35:55. | :35:56. | |
tried and tested for protecting the interests of the vulnerable, should | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
be the law that applies. Now, when we are looking at a body like IHAT, | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
I would ask the House to think about two things. One of them is why did | :36:08. | :36:17. | |
no other country, all countries in the West, claim to uphold the rule | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
of law, choose to set up the body like IHAT? The second question I'd | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
ask the House to think about is what exactly did we expect our soldiers | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
to do in the very dangerous circumstances to which a number of | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
the cases which are likely to survive the IHAT process and go | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
forward apply, in those months after we captured Basra, when there was no | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
police force effectively, there was no rule of law, we have large | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
numbers of dangerous people around dealing with rioting, was looting | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
and so on. Some colleagues may have read the recent account of how the | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
Americans dealt with one particular looting problem, they shot two or | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
three of the looters and a potential riot was suppressed. There was never | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
any question of follow-up for that. Because we have to realise that in | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
those sorts of circumstances, while you can have humanitarian law in the | :37:14. | :37:20. | |
background, while you can have rules of engagement and so on, if you are | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
young officer with a very small number of soldiers in a dangerous | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
situation, seeing vulnerable people threatened, you may have make | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
split-second decisions which in a court of law, in the UK context, | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
anywhere within the United Kingdom, would not stand up. Trying to | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
retrospectively establish those sorts of rules with human rights law | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
being substituted somehow or other into the picture for the old very | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
clear and very simple principles of humanitarian law, is exposed members | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
of our Armed Forces in a way which many of us find an acceptable. -- an | :37:59. | :38:08. | |
acceptable. I would just like to end with two points on that. The first | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
is that while I was delighted at the way my right honourable friend | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
stressed the importance of Mr Shiner being struck off as a lawyer, it | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
does seem to me extraordinary that there has been no criminal | :38:28. | :38:35. | |
prosecution. When we look at what the SRA, who I hitherto have always | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
regarded as the most toothless of all professional bodies from my own | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
constituencies' casework, when we look at what the SRA have found | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
against him and we realise what that implies for our Armed Forces, I | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
think it's extraordinary that he hasn't been charged and I very much | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
hope he will be. The last point I'd like to make is about our Armed | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
Forces in the operations they are involved in today. The government | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
made a pledge that if we were involved in further combat | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
operations, we would indeed stand back from the derogate from the | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
Human Rights Act. But we are now engaged in two operations. We are | :39:20. | :39:26. | |
increasing the number of soldiers in Afghanistan, which has turned back | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
from a purely support mission, back towards an increasingly combat one, | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
and at the same time we are very heavily involved in the bitter | :39:36. | :39:43. | |
fighting in Iraq and we have air men regularly bombing areas. We have the | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
most accurate bombs, we have the most fail-safe systems, you are | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
safer as a civilian sheltering an area being bombed by the REF than | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
any other force, but nevertheless potentially threatening civilians in | :39:57. | :40:03. | |
the attack for most salt and so on. We have members of special forces, | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
we don't talk about in this chamber, but some of whom are involved in | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
ways as well. What protection is in place? Why haven't we derogated from | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
the Human Rights Act for these two theatres? Madame Dudley speaker I | :40:18. | :40:24. | |
want others to have the opportunity to speak, but I just end by saying I | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
wholly support my honourable friend and the members opposite in calling | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
for an end to the pursuit of veterans unless serious new evidence | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
emerges in Northern Ireland, and I believe we owe more to the troops | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
engaged in operations elsewhere today. We've got six people who want | :40:42. | :40:54. | |
to get in... Deputy Speaker, I'm very pleased as always who to follow | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
the honourable gentleman the member for Canterbury and thank him for all | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
he has done in the service of his country, both here and in | :41:02. | :41:08. | |
operations. Can I also pay tribute to everyone who has spoken thus far | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
and I want to say that the right honourable member the member for | :41:14. | :41:15. | |
Lagan Valley set out a very powerful way the case I think that is | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
reflected by in the country at large and in terms of the approach to | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
these issues. I want to thank the shadow junior minister for his | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
words, but in particular I want to pay tribute to the government for | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
having not just a junior minister here and representatives from the | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
Ministry of Defence, but the Secretary of State also has | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
participated in this debate. I think that's appreciated by the members of | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
the Democratic youth and Unionist party on these benches. I will give | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
way. Can I, as I should have done earlier, apologised for the absence | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
of my colleagues the honourable member for Blaydon. He's on a train | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
somewhere in the Northwest. May I also of course most importantly pay | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
tribute to the members of our security forces, those who have | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
served and those who continue to serve, and I, as a member in this | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
house for North Belfast only too well aware of the enormous | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
sacrifices being made over the years in terms of protecting life and limb | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
and property in my constituency in Belfast and across Northern Ireland | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
by the members of the security forces, and the recent example where | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
a police officer was injured and thankfully was not seriously injured | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
in my constituency and also just the other day in County Londonderry, | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
which has been referred to, shows the continuing risks that members of | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
our security forces are at in the service of others or once they | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
deserve our admiration, pride and our grateful thanks. How we deal | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
with legacy issues in Northern Ireland is important for innocent | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
victims and their families, first and foremost, but it is a deeper | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
significance than just that. The way we respond to current feelings on | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
the house asked and these have been highlighted at length thus far in | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
the process, will reflect our commitment to fairness and justice | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
right across the United Kingdom. There is a very real view and | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
perception, those who defended our communities from attack are being | :43:19. | :43:21. | |
investigated disproportionately and with greater zeal than those who | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
brought terror to our land and the facts bear that out. It isn't just a | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
perception. But I think it's been amply demonstrated in the | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
contribution made thus far that there is substance to that | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
perception. Many of our Armed Forces veterans have heard a knock on the | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
door early in the morning, hauled in by police for interrogation about | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
events that took place many years ago. We've heard examples from | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
honourable members opposite of exactly that happening, houses being | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
invaded, searched, reputations tarnished. We on these benches are | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
not prepared to stand back and see those who bravely served the people | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
of Northern Ireland and serves people of this country generally in | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
their darkest hour, hounded and unfairly vilified. We believe | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
investigations into historical cases must be balanced and proportionate. | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
It's wrong that our former members of the security forces are subject | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
to a different set of rules to those who sought to do them and others | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
harm and the right honourable member for Lagan Valley has set out how the | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
provisions of the Belfast Agreement gave special dispensation and | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
special measures for paramilitaries and those who were imprisoned but | :44:35. | :44:36. | |
did nothing for our security forces. That is wrong. Operation Banner, as | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
has been mentioned, was the longest military deployment in British | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
history. Over 250,000 men and women served in the Armed Forces and in | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
the RUC during that time. It's right to emphasise again the 7000 awards | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
for bravery that were made. The over 1100 security service personnel | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
murdered in the course of their duties. Countless more bearing | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
mental and physical scars of those days. And without their dedication | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
to making people safe, as the Secretary of State are so rightly | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
said, without that sacrifice, terrorism would not have been | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
defeated and the roots of peace could not have been sown to provide | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
where we are today. Flawed and difficult as it is, we're in a much, | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
much better place as a result of the work and sacrifice of our security | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
forces. So they defended and we must defend them. Never forgetting that | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
paramilitary terrorists, both Republican and loyalist, were | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
responsible for some 90% of the deaths during the so-called | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
Troubles. So how we address the issue of legacy must reflect what | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
actually happened. No one is saying on these benches that people are | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
above the law. The actions of the security forces must be held to the | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
highest levels of professionalism and of course must be properly | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
investigated. And of course, in saying that, we must also remember | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
the difficult context in which people were operating in security | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
forces and police at the time, in a climate of fear and terror created | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
by terrorists, who went out of their way not only to target innocent | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
civilians, but then to target and murder detectives and others who | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
were involved in trying to investigate crime. And of course, | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
policing practices which across the United Kingdom were far removed from | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
those that are used today. To suggest that somehow misconduct was | :46:32. | :46:38. | |
rife is a deliberate distortion. It's a narrative of the troubles | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
that is not justified by the fact and we in this House must reject | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
such revisionism. Member said there is a danger that the past has been | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
rewritten, that the war has been won, yes, there is a dangerous | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
propaganda war, we must not allow that to happen. We must ensure that | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
the past is not rewritten in the way the terrorists and their | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
sympathisers would like to see it rewritten. I thank my right | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
honourable friend for giving way. On the issue of proportionality, which | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
is discussing at the moment, would he agree with me that significantly | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
less than 1% of all the people going through the years in Northern | :47:21. | :47:22. | |
Ireland who served in the security forces and police -- army and | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
police, were even questioned about possible breaches of the law come | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
when 100% of the terrorists were most definitely guilty of breaches | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
of the law. The member makes a very, very important point and it bears | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
emphasis in this House and further afield, and it's important that | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
these issues are made clear to people who may, as time passes, from | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
the direct reports of what happened in Northern Ireland, begin to think | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
that somehow there was a different story, different narrative, occurred | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
in Northern Ireland. That's why it's absolutely important that the | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
institutions which were being set up under the Stormont House agreement, | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
which the Secretary of State referred to and which my right | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
honourable friend referred to, the historical investigations unit and | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
so on, I'll set up so we can have a balanced, fair and proportionate | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
approach to all of this. So they will highlight the fact we have 3000 | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
murders in Northern Ireland remaining unsolved, that we have | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
acts of terrorism carried out by people like Sean Kelly, the Shankill | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
bomber, like Mike Torkalkar her, part of the South Armagh IRA sniper | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
team that murdered once bombardier Stephen Restorick in 1997, one of | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
the last members of the Armed Forces to die. He received a sentence | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
totalling 105 years Andy Ward free just after three -- and he walked | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
free just after three. The right honourable member for Lagan Valley | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
has detailed the efforts that were made by the then Labour government | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
and John Reid and then Peter Mandelson to go to extraordinary | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
lengths to provide concessions to IRA terrorists, with no regard | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
whatsoever to any kind of proportionality, or to do anything | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
for the security forces. The secret deals that were done, for instance, | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
on and on the runs and so on. These are the major debilitating impact on | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
those who face down terrorism in Northern Ireland and our duty now is | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
to convince them that that will not happen again. I share the view of | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
the right honourable gentleman who spoke earlier on our behalf that | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
this government will not repeat the mistakes of that were made in the | :49:36. | :49:38. | |
past and there will be no amnesty and there will be no secret deals | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
which will allow terrorists off the hook. So in conclusion I want to say | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
that it's important that we get the Stormont house agreement | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
institutions up and running as quickly as possible, that we begin | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
to get back some kind of fair and proportionate system in terms of | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
investigation of what macro -- these legacy cases and we... I give way. | :50:03. | :50:14. | |
Is can I congratulate him for bringing this important matter to | :50:15. | :50:24. | |
the house? All those little difficult lessons from what happened | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
and we are to appreciate the effect that has had on the Armed Forces and | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
our own veterans. Surely after what feels all gone through with IHAT on | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
the lessons we must learn the last thing we can sanction is a | :50:41. | :50:43. | |
politically motivated witchhunt in Northern Ireland against our own. | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
I am delighted that the honourable gentleman was able to make that | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
point. It is a very powerful point and I agree with that entirely. The | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
stakes are high. There was a responsibility and those of us who | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
are in this house to make sure that we build a society that values than | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
and elevates justice and treats our veterans properly. One that upholds | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
the proud traditions of our military and other commitment to democracy | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
and we must go forward on that basis. | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
Members have been very good in sticking to a self imposed time | :51:17. | :51:24. | |
limit. If everyone who is about to speak takes seven minutes or less | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
then all colleagues would have a chance of making their voice heard. | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
And I am sure I can rely on Mr David Simpson to do that. | :51:36. | :51:43. | |
It is good to follow the right honourable member from Belfast | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
North. I want a fully acknowledge the service and the sacrifice of our | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
Armed Forces and police throughout the world as they are placed in | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
areas of conflict to protect the lives of innocent people. I remember | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
them often and not only the sacrifice that they make but also | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
their families. From my time in this debate I wish to focus briefly one | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
Northern Ireland, of course Northern Ireland has enjoyed some 20 years of | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
relative peace. It has not been perfect but unfortunately we have | :52:20. | :52:29. | |
seen decades of brutal violence, the murder of 1879 civilians and the | :52:30. | :52:37. | |
murder of 1117 members of the security forces. What we must first | :52:38. | :52:46. | |
and foremost agree is that not everyone in Northern Ireland is a | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
victim. There are those and some who would seek to claim that every | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
single person in the country is a victim. This is an insidious concept | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
for two reasons. Firstly it diminishes the genuine pain and | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
suffering of those who were directly affected by the actions of | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
terrorists during the troubles and it elevates those who engage in the | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
criminal acts to equal. Just those who suffered and caused the | :53:15. | :53:22. | |
suffering in the first place. The British Army was deployed in | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
Northern Ireland as we all know under operation in 69. Their rail | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
will support the then Royal Ulster Constabulary including providing | :53:34. | :53:34. | |
protection to police officers in carrying out normal policing areas | :53:35. | :53:44. | |
and areas of threats. To deter terrorist attacks and support | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
placing against terrorist operations. The scale of the | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
campaign within another province was escalating and at its peak, in the | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
1970s, the British army was deploying around 21,000 soldiers, | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
one of the most memorable and it has mentioned earlier, was to be July | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
the 21st 1972 from the IRA murdered nine people. Injured 130 and they | :54:11. | :54:19. | |
planted and detonated 27 bombs. The magnitude of this campaign still has | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
the longest continuous deployment of the British monetary history of this | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
legacy remains strongly in the hearts and minds of many and not | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
least is those who came to protect us. I've no doubt about the | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
commitment from our security personnel, the rain of terrorism | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
would have succeeded in the death of many more innocent lives. I want to | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
quote a paragraph from the Armed Forces covenant. The first | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
Government is the defence of the realm. Our Armed Forces fulfil that | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
responsibility in behalf of Government, sacrificing some | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
civilian freedoms, facing danger and sometimes thick suffering injury or | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
death as a result of their duty. Let me say again, in this house, that | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
1117 members of our security forces paid the ultimate sacrifice was | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
serving of the Government are serving to protect the innocent | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
lives of the wider community in Northern Ireland during 1969 until | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
2010. This figure does not account for the many thousands of security | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
personnel left badly injured and who are still struggling today as a | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
direct result of terrorism. My point is this. The British Army was | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
deployed to support the role of the police as protectors of the people | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
of Northern Ireland and to uphold the rule of law and order. At times | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
this involved direct contact with the legal group, namely the | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
provisional IRA, who read the main opposition to British deployment. | :56:05. | :56:11. | |
Tough and ultimately life changing decisions were made by our security | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
forces while they serve this country and Her Majesty's Government at I'm | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
sure there are members in this chamber today for not exactly what | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
that level of combat must actually feel like. Our Majesty 's Government | :56:27. | :56:33. | |
invests millions of pounds to deliver specific training in balding | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
high-intensity battles, a significant part of this training | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
equips each officer with the skills of making level and justifiable | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
decisions under severe threats to life and we put our trust in them to | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
do their job and we must continue to trust the judgments they make and | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
the very specific and unique circumstances in Northern Ireland. | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
In conclusion, I want to commend the honourable member for North West | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
Norfolk for his work and commitment to see that whether it be retired or | :57:04. | :57:12. | |
still active service personnel are not unduly questioned over their | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
actions and decisions they took up the height of prolonged and vicious | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
terror campaigns. Terrorist organisations, as it hasn't said a | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
game in this house, accounted for 90% of the lives lost during the | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
troubles in Northern Ireland. Our focus should be in bringing those | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
perpetrators before the courts and not our security force personnel, | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
and deliver justice for the real victims of Northern Ireland. | :57:43. | :57:49. | |
This is an important debate and I'm not going to go over all of the | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
cities of which have been given by previous speakers. Other than to say | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
we in Northern Ireland over great depth of gratitude to those who hold | :58:01. | :58:07. | |
the ring for 40 years in the face of a sustained terrorist campaign. And | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
it is wrong that now because of Republicans attempt to rewrite the | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
history of the troubles that these people should be subject to a | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
witchhunt and should be made the scapegoat for what happened but 40 | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
years. And can I just give a warning to the house? If members think that | :58:28. | :58:35. | |
what we've seen to date has been an further after the election which we | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
now have in Northern Ireland, one can be absolutely sure that Sinn | :58:42. | :58:48. | |
Fein are going to ramp up the pressure to make sure that more | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
soldiers and more policemen are dragged into the dock. That the | :58:52. | :58:58. | |
classified documents which the Ministry of Defence of the police | :58:59. | :59:03. | |
have will be a to scrutiny by smart lawyers in the courts, all of it and | :59:04. | :59:10. | |
attempt to rewrite history. Because the selection Northern Ireland is | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
not about a failed scheme as the shadow spokesman has pointed out. | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
This election is all about Sinn Fein thinking that they have an | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
opportunity to have a rerun of the last election, to come out stronger | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
and then to put pressure on a Government which will be dead keen | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
to get them back into Government. The price will be policemen and | :59:33. | :59:43. | |
soldiers sacrificed in the courts and an unfair system. That is why I | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
think the members are right to be concerned about what we are hearing | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
here today. Already the system is unbearable to present their | :59:54. | :00:00. | |
butterball because the cases been dealt with have been | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
disproportionately geared towards those in the security forces. And it | :00:05. | :00:13. | |
has been mentioned here already, why are the legal systems in Northern | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
Ireland and the justice system in Northern Ireland shall taste show | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
locally and indeed trying to silence the press about what they have been | :00:22. | :00:30. | |
doing? If they do not believe that the statements they've made, if they | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
were looked at closely, would be seen to be disproportionate. And | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
from the Attorney General to the Director of Public Prosecutions | :00:40. | :00:41. | |
quite up to the Chief Constable of the PSNI we have had to denials. And | :00:42. | :00:50. | |
yet figures are clear. 30% of the cases being investigated at present | :00:51. | :00:57. | |
our security force cases. Although only 10% of the people killed in | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
Northern Ireland during the troubles were killed by security force action | :01:02. | :01:11. | |
and very well, many of those were murders. A very few cases, as far as | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
the deaths caused by security forces, could even be claimed to | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
have been unlawful or look unlawful. And yet we have 30% of them being | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
investigated. It is not only... Can either the benefit of the house | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
just make it absolutely clear that I was not in anyway implying that the | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
assembly elections on March the 2nd solely the result of the RHI issue. | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
There are indicative of a wider feeling of distrust which in many | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
ways is not being addressed by this debate today. | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
Thank you. The second thing is that this has been an further in its | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
approach. Let us look at the way in which terrorists have been treated. | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
They've been given letters that excuse them from ever having to be | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
in court when Gerry Adams was being questioned about covering up his | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
paedophile brother. She was given the opportunity to nominate what | :02:17. | :02:18. | |
police station he wanted to go to. When he would like to be | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
interviewed. And he attended without his house being raided, without | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
being hauled out of his bed, without being dragged across the water as we | :02:31. | :02:43. | |
found out soldiers here have. It was done at his convenience and yet we | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
find when it comes to soldiers... And I would like to know who | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
actually gave the instructions for early morning raids on pensioners | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
homes. For instead of being questioned on the road town or their | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
police station and police officers from Northern Ireland coming over, | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
they had to be dragged to Northern Ireland. And then restrictive bail | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
conditions been put on them. They are never put on terrorists in | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
Northern Ireland. It is an fair in its approach. Is this a result of a | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
direction by the director of public prosecution? What of the police in | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
Northern Ireland, was that the police in the jurisdiction in which | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
the people lived? I have asked the cheap possible for answers and have | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
not been able to buy them so it is unfair in its approach and it is | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
unfair because of the inadequacy of the imbalance of information. I do | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
not accept the Secretary of State's information that there will be | :03:43. | :03:44. | |
plenty of information about terrorism of us will have all the | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
police files. Many of those police files have disappeared. Many cases | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
were never even investigated. Yet there will be detailed records of | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
what the Army don't and I believe the only way and the only solution | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
to this is to have a statute of limitations where terrorists, says | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
the Good Friday Agreement, have had special conditions attached to them. | :04:09. | :04:16. | |
That the same furnace be attached -- furnace be attached to those who | :04:17. | :04:18. | |
served in the security forces that we do not bind people be dragged | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
before the courts but things that happened 40 years ago, which their | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
little recollection of and indeed which even the state and the records | :04:27. | :04:36. | |
are difficult to turn up. I hope that this issue will not be | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
forgotten. This issue will sustain the pressure on the Government on | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
this issue to ensure fairness for this is served their country so | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
well. I want to acknowledge with deep | :04:48. | :04:58. | |
regret the attempted murder on the police officer in Derry yesterday, | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
in the constituency of my honourable friend the member for Foyle, and | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
apologise for his nonattendance today and that of my honourable | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
friend the member for South Belfast, because they are both in Dublin at | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
the Good Friday Agreement committee, and in fact the select committee | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
exiting the European Union is meeting in Dublin today, with | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
various committees to deal with the issue of Brexit. So in so doing I | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
would say that it is important that I, on behalf of the SDLP, say that | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
we have always renounced violence from wherever it came, because | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
violence was always wrong, during all that period of the Troubles, as | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
it is wrong now. There was never any justification for that level of | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
terrorism, for that level of violence and that level of murder, | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
because all it did was leave pain, destruction and mayhem and brought | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
us so many years backwards. But there was that opportunity, through | :06:00. | :06:01. | |
the Good Friday Agreement, and that is perhaps where I disagree with the | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
colleagues behind me. That period where we come together in terms of | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
respect for political difference, in terms of power-sharing, in terms of | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
working together on the issues that matter to the people, and, I would | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
hope, that on the far side of this election, that there is that | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
opportunity for the restoration of the political institutions and that | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
there's parallel negotiations to deal with these issues that are | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
outstanding, that seemed to drag us down, that seem to give excuses for | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
people both in Sinn Fein and the DUP to not allow the institutions to be | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
fully functional. Because I say to all of them that the people on the | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
doors in the last few weeks say, we want political institutions will | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
stop we want faith in those institutions. We want them working | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
and we want them delivering for us, on whether its health, spiralling | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
waiting lists out of control, education, budgets that could not be | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
agreed for schools on a rolling three-year pattern, are you rolling | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
three-year programme, and investment in our economy, our jobs, our | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
tourism. That's what young people want to see. They want to see hope, | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
they want to see a future, and they want to see a reason for staying and | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
remaining in Northern Ireland. So if I get back to the substance of the | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
debate. The SDLP agrees that the processes in relation to | :07:34. | :07:35. | |
investigations and prosecutions and legacy cases must be balanced and | :07:36. | :07:43. | |
fair, and how we deal with the past in Northern Ireland must be shaped | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
and guided by terms set by victims and survivors, with truth and | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
accountability at the core. And all of the parties in Northern Ireland | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
agreed the amnesty should not be the basis for dealing with the past and | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
that was the subject of the negotiations and then the subsequent | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
Stormont House Agreement. But there are a number of ongoing enquiries in | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
relation to inquests as opposed to the pursuit of possible | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
prosecutions. On prosecutions like inquests do bring closure and | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
justice to families, as in the ongoing case which was referred to | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
by the right honourable member for Lagan al -- Lagan Valley. Those | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
people were my neighbours and my friends and some of them indirectly | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
related to me, and they still awake that justice. The police ombudsman's | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
report has been published, which refers to a significant element of | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
collusion by the then RUC. Those issues need to be addressed and | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
there needs to be closure brought to the families, because truth and | :08:51. | :08:52. | |
accountability are particularly important. But I also think I've the | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
families of Whitecross, the baby brothers, and also Kingsmill, where | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
many men wear killed on that particular night. All of those | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
people deserve justice right across the community. And there were many | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
soldiers and many policemen who were killed and I can think of what | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
happened to the men on the road in 1991 and I remember well that Monday | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
morning seeing the smoke rising out of the ground, when there was a | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
large crater and something like six men dead. And I remember my | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
predecessor going to the scene and what he saw, what he saw would never | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
ever be repeated again, but firmly I believe that no one in this House or | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
outside this House should be above the rule of law and we must remember | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
that. That the rule of law must prevail. And that means the | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
government has to be very careful. I say this to the Secretary of State | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
and to his ministerial colleagues, both in the Cabinet and in the front | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
bench, that we must support the judicial system and we must ensure | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
that is respected, and I know reference has been made by the | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
Shadow Minister to the statistics given by the PSNI, and I have seen | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
those statistics, and in fact I would say this as a cautionary | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
statement here, that the Assistant Chief Constable Marcus Beale ten in | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
the PSNI, who has direct responsibility for this -- Marcus | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
Hamilton. He said on the 2nd of February, a public perception that | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
there a disproportionate focus on military cases, but they form part | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
of what we're doing. I have a full team, those four teams are doing | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
reviews against a list of cases at the minute and none of those are | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
military. Either full team working on the runs and that doesn't relate | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
to the military at all. So I say to the government there is a cautionary | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
word there, we must take everything in terms of proportionality and we | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
must ensure that there is fairness and balance in all of this. And at | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
the end of the day, we must ensure the Secretary of State said it at | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
oral questions, that the campaign, the election campaign, must be | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
conducted in a manner that allows for the speediest return to | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
partnership government and I just question and I say this also to the | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
DUP, that to have this debate during an election period, does that | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
infringe the purdah period? I see other elements, where Sinn Fein | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
ministers have been making announcements. I know is a former | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
minister during an election period that was not possible in previous | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
years. I say those things, I'm quite happy to give way. Madame Deputy | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
Speaker I thank the Honourable Lady for giving way. The timing of this | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
debate was agreed with the government Chief Whip long before | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
there was any sense of an election in Northern Ireland and long before | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
the date for the election was set, and we should not, as members of | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
Parliament, from be impeded from carrying out our duties to represent | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
the people who elected us to come here, because there's an election to | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
a devolved assembly. Any more than the honourable lady's colleagues in | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
Dublin in another jurisdiction taking part in political activity | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
today should be impeded. Could I thank the right from a gentleman his | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
intervention. I take note of what he says. But in conclusion, because I | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
realise there are other people who want to speak here today, that we | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
respect and upholds the inquest system. We make no apologies for | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
that. We defend the system, when government makes any attempt to move | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
against it for their own convenience, and I should say that I | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
felt the Prime Minister was particularly partisan yesterday, | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
particularly in an election period where you need to be even and | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
balanced and fair. So in conclusion I look forward to the far side of | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
the election, when we do have those political institutions up and | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
running and we do have those parallel initiations, and we need no | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
interregnum. Work needs to continue and we need to be seen to do | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
delivering for people with a sound government. It's a pleasure to speak | :13:26. | :13:34. | |
on this issue. As a former by time Ulster Defence Regiment soldier I | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
was also very proud to wear the uniform in days gone by -- | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
part-time. I made friendships with those who put their lives on the | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
line for security and freedom. There is an exemplary history of personnel | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
service, to all the Armed Forces, and I speak in my office daily with | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
widows, children and family of those who were murdered during service for | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
Queen and country. This is a debate my honourable friend and colleague | :14:01. | :14:02. | |
for Lagan Valley set the scene so very well, which is not only with | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
those intimately affected with this but ex-service personnel and current | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
service personnel, every man and woman in this chamber and further | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
afield, who have had their right to life protected by people they will | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
never meet but to whom they owe an eternal gritters destitute -- | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
gratitude will stop I'm very happy to give way. Mail in behalf of so | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
many other members of the house a huge tribute which is not often | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
said, to the politicians of Northern Ireland, who actually are and have | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
been and is huge threat, just as much threat as members of the Royal | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
Ulster Constabulary or the Armed Forces, and every day they continue | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
to do their duty to look after their constituents, and we pay tribute to | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
you. Thank you, the honourable gentleman is a very salient point to | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
make and we thank him for his gallant service he has given | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
Northern Ireland as well and he, as a soldier, gave a magnificent | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
contribution to the peace process we have in Northern Ireland and we | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
thank you for that in this chamber. I am known, sometimes may not know, | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
to be a fiery person. I believe it's the Scots blood I have in my veins. | :15:21. | :15:27. | |
With great restraint I've viewed the attempts by many in the so-called | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
shared society to rewrite the history of the Troubles vile | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
provenance and they are blackening the name of men and women who have | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
heard nothing other than praise. In this regard Gerry Kelly has shown | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
disregard for James Ferris, who was stabbed and died at his home via | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
land should be roundly condemned. There's nothing romantic about the | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
Maze Prison break-out and the death of a police officer and that it | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
should be a glorified offering shows of valid -- level of disrespect and | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
sensitively, a lack of remorse as appalling and the suggestion that | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
prison officers were shot, stabbed and beaten is acceptable is... The | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
bizarre word of Sinn Fein coming to rewrite facts, failing to astound | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
and wound the good people of the province, where most especially the | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
thousands who have been traumatised by IRA terrorism. I want to remind | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
people in the chamber today of the real story there, that of a man who | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
served Queen and country handlers had his life ripped away by | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
terrorists. Remember me that sacrifice as well. As a classified | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
files were opened, am I the only one, I know not, who, I don't | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
believe this to be the case, who is sick, sore and tired of personal | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
opinion is that turn into a tax upon past serving soldiers and in this | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
case the members of the UDR. I will fend for this referred to it, | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
salting to the extreme. I served in the Ulster Defence Regiment and | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
every one of those part-time UDRs members I was serving with were | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
wonderful people, male and female, who joined to stop terrorism from | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
whatever source it came from. Let me remind you of the facts, the facts | :17:15. | :17:22. | |
are the UDR full-time and part-time soldiers who served, work long hours | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
and a massive threat, checking in with clients, living in the eye of | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
the storm daily along with their entire families, 180 sold -- 187 | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
soldiers were killed, the majority of its -- the majority of duty. | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
These are the facts of the case. You can't deny them. I, along with most | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
upstanding moral people have been horrified to learn that 1004 Humber | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
soldiers many in their 60s and 70s were to be investigated fatal | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
incidents. These were men who gave up family life, who witnessed | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
horrors, who were subjected to horrific life changing scenes, they | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
helped dying comrades in their arms, they surged rubble for members of | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
their team and are now having to deal with this whilst wearing the | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
Queens colours, is subject to investigation is now. I understand | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
very well the concept of closure and what the injustice, I want justice | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
for my cousin Kenneth Smith, murdered by the IRA. I want justice | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
for the four UDR men that the honourable member refers to, some of | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
whom I knew personally. And yet there is no multi-million pounds | :18:29. | :18:37. | |
investigation available for that. One life is worth more than another, | :18:38. | :18:48. | |
it's not, never will be. It can never do, and why should it, I | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
called this government to round and take the only thing they can do and | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
make sure our people are given the credit and given the fairness they | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
should have. The investigation of bogus -- bogus claims made to | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
defraud the MoD and destroy the reputation of the Armed Forces, it | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
can never be allowed to happen and the intimidation of soldiers must be | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
assessed and supported. There must be an assurance I believe for these | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
soldiers through this farce of a procedure will never be allowed to | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
happen again. Actions should be swifter than this, credible claims | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
should be distinguished more quickly from the bogus ones and innocent | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
until proven guilty should be the fallback position. With the greatest | :19:36. | :19:43. | |
of respect I want to make, the do investigation by the Defence Select | :19:44. | :19:51. | |
Committee, I congratulate all of those involved in the scrutiny. | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
Because of that I hope the lessons will be learned by all others. Never | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
should claims without evidence be progressed. Never should serving | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
police officers, never believe -- leave a man. Those who are facing a | :20:02. | :20:10. | |
republican agenda, as freedom fighting terrorism, today,... With | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
the honourable gentleman agree with me and I think the whole House is | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
incredibly moved by his words and I think he would agree with me, from | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
what he's saying so movingly and eloquently, that is a House, | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
regardless of party, we owe a huge debt to all of these people and I'm | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
sure he would join me with me and saying that and I would wish to join | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
with him in sharing his views that as I say he's expressing so movingly | :20:41. | :20:42. | |
and eloquently to this house. If we in this party want is set the | :20:43. | :20:54. | |
record straight for future generations. The atrocities during | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
the trouble from whatever side the Rose was nothing more than words. | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
There is no glory, there is no honour in wives without husbands. No | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
honour in children without a father. Novelli Crier rant bombs that took | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
the lives of men and women within the women of women out shopping. | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
There is no victory in the indiscriminate slaughter of peoples | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
worshipping in church Sunday morning. It is a legacy of men and | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
women who gave their all for freedom and democracy. The honour belongs to | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
those who lead their lives with the sorrow of great flaws but chose not | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
to retaliate. Their valley cries for those who asked for the memory of | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
their loved ones not to be tarnished. Victory belongs to the | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
right-thinking people of Northern Ireland to have chosen to support | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
the rule of law and justice under waiting for us to give them the | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
support they deserve. We remember the truth, we stand to honour those | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
who are falling but we also promise to protect their legacy. | :21:54. | :22:03. | |
Thank you. What a moving speech from the Honourable member. I would like | :22:04. | :22:11. | |
to congratulate the member for Lagan Valley for a very powerful speech | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
that really set the tone for today. I'm really pleased that this debate | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
is happening but I had hoped to have won ourselves but we were not | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
allowed to have it until after the elections falls very well indeed and | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
congratulations to everyone. The whole point is looking for fairness | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
and balance in the way justice is far but what I want to really get | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
across, this is not just a Northern Ireland problem. These were our | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
troops from the whole of the United Kingdom. This is a problem that this | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
house must embrace all the way through. We cannot just say it | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
relies on the legacy to be sorted out at Stormont. Yes, we have a huge | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
part to do at Stormont and all of us want to see it sold us a call really | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
for unity. Everyone pulling together so that we come up with a solution. | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
If we do not have storm in her after this election the duty falls on this | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
house. It falls on all of us to find that right way forward and let's | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
ensure that we do that. I've always wanted all the way through my time | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
to say a huge thank you to all of those who served in Northern | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
Ireland. That's not just the soldiers of the security forces. It | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
is also those in the community. The political. There are mass of people | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
have done so much work and are doing so much work. Those of the people we | :23:32. | :23:39. | |
should be praising. In my own party I've ex-servicemen who are all show | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
the path we've all been through. And particularly anti-Allen who lost his | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
legs and his eyesight in Afghanistan and was one of the greatest heroes | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
we have got to us today is one of our members of the assembly. Someone | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
who's really gritted his teeth and found a way forward. That is the | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
pride that we all must have. I was pleased to see the report being | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
mentioned from the defence committee which the Honourable member for | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
Plymouth had put together. Which has two Riddick recommendations on it | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
but extremely sad to see the way the Government dealt with it. They took | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
it from under him. In the house and wonderful recommendations as to how | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
we should be looking at future investigations. If I have any | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
complaint it is because it only talks future. It be talking about | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
present and future investigations. It is good that this has been closed | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
down bubbly to look at the recommendations that are in that | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
report. There are good ideas there and this how should take them all on | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
board. Last weekend I met someone, a senior officer in the services, who | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
told me that he came home the other day to his house to find that two | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
plainclothes detectives had been knocking out his door asking about | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
the past. His wife naturally was concerned. The children very | :25:12. | :25:19. | |
concerned. Yet that is just one example that is why we're having a | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
debate today. Let's the most of not just that report but the chance that | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
we have got and work together. We've really got to find a way through | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
this. Their rugged mechanisms in place for stop the historic | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
enquiries unit, good idea but we must make sure that does not mean | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
we're looking at cases twice we must, and it would be better to give | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
the same powers to the police force and carry on with what we're doing | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
now but make sure that they have the right powers and resources to carry | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
on and conclude all the matters. We have got to take on board that there | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
is a tarnishing and blackening the security forces continually in | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
Northern Ireland. Always in the papers every week and we do nothing | :26:07. | :26:14. | |
about it from outside. -- from our side. If you follow Sinn Fein of | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
what they have been doing about this nicely to the tarnishing that goes | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
on, they have a continual intention of continually doing down our armed | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
services. There will call them Imperial, they will call them | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
undisciplined, but we know from 250,000 serving their that in most | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
cases they were the most professional. We've got to support | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
them. Got to make sure things are fair. What started was the major | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
Hutchins Case and I'm very pleased to see the whole house pulling | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
together and making sure that we are looking at this. I work in the prime | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
Minster's comments of being their balance and proportion but we've got | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
to do it now. We cannot just keep waiting. We've got to keep going. I | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
know I'm running out of time and I'm happy to give way. | :27:08. | :27:15. | |
Very quickly, surely a political decision allows people sentenced | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
from 125 year to only three was a political decision. It could be made | :27:23. | :27:24. | |
here to sort out this problem. Very much. The Honourable member is | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
right. It is a political decision and we have the chance to make sure | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
that we must not be giving amnesties to the terrorist. We must find a way | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
forward that does not have equivalents. We must find a way | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
forward that resolves at all and it is possible if we'll sit down | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
together and actually do it. We need the truth and justice for the | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
victims and that must be underneath it all the way through. One thing | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
that has bothered me all the way through and I find it uncomfortable. | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
We are written election time here today and been told that we blame it | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
on the Belfast agreement. Belfast, I believe architects of that agreement | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
in this room. The person who proposed the whole motion. We should | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
be working together not attacking each other and it bothers me to hear | :28:16. | :28:24. | |
at times certain members of the party that here with me actually | :28:25. | :28:32. | |
tried to get Jonathan in his book is that they tried to get Tony Blair to | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
write to Ian Paisley at the time to say that they would accept the on | :28:37. | :28:45. | |
the runs and blame it all. I hope that is wrong but I just put that | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
out there because election points where being made today. I get back | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
to my point. Let's all work together and make sure... | :28:53. | :29:01. | |
I would like to thank all the Honourable members who brought this | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
matter board for the bait. I'm going to focus on issues that relate to | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
the IHAT process. Colleagues have fully and eloquently address the | :29:12. | :29:13. | |
situation in relation to Northern Ireland. I was not in this place | :29:14. | :29:22. | |
during the Iraq war or in 2010 when IHAT was established. There are | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
three questions. How got to the point establishing it, what went | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
from the process and where do we go from here. In an earlier debate on a | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
belated topic and Honourable member opposite was no longer in his place | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
set to a colleague of mine the danger of the argument is that the | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
Scottish National Party is turning soldiers from cannon fodder into | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
courtroom fodder. I think that when the Honourable member reflects on | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
that statement you might have regretted the implication is members | :29:48. | :29:54. | |
of our Armed Forces should never be regarded as cannon fodder. It does | :29:55. | :30:02. | |
appear that the last thing... For many members here today, and I am | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
the same, I am very conscious that we ask of Armed Forces to undertake | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
dangerous operations. We may not always agree here with the | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
Government foreign policy or defence strategy but one of the implications | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
of joining the Armed Forces is in part to pass to others the | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
responsibility for deciding who is and who is not an adversarial. Their | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
right to expect the fullest protection we can for people who do | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
a job with commitment and professionalism and they are | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
renowned for that. So they have a right to respect the laws that they | :30:35. | :30:36. | |
are required to be clear. The techniques they are taught to use, | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
the training given and the rules of engagement which they operate under | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
must be in compliance with these laws and they must be kept | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
up-to-date. You hereby grant to this process it seems as though the MoD | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
failed in that aspect of their duty of care. We can endlessly debate the | :30:50. | :30:58. | |
territorial extension versus application of international | :30:59. | :31:00. | |
humanitarian law but in the real world, based on current and past | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
memories of the Armed Forces, you cannot consider this at your leisure | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
if you find a serious allegation made against you. IHAT was set up in | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
a desperate attempt to address that very but it was not the right answer | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
or delivered in the right way. In my constituency I doubt with a case | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
where I had dealt very buggy with a veteran, wasting huge fees also is, | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
sending officers from the South Ringland to Scotland on the wasted | :31:25. | :31:32. | |
journey. The was a clarity about the status and the operated by breaching | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
confidentiality and asking members of the community for his | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
whereabouts, which was unacceptable. Yet not done anything wrong. There | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
is no justification for behaving like some kind of military Sherlock | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
Holmes. There was an ultimate failure for providing pastoral care. | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
I would ask members to reflect white was necessary to put in place such | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
specific resorts as per the Iraq conflict. Is this another of the | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
toxic legacy from the conflict that will disappear over time? It's | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
interesting that with the living changes was the ship from RNP | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
resources to enable police because of a perceived conflict for the RNP | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
carrying out enquiries into their own former cases. Maybe the complex | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
international framework means resources of the kind put in place | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
these to be planned for to make sure it is undertaken with a great deal | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
more professionalism and concern for the well-being of current and former | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
service personnel. Was beaten to the question how we go forward from | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
here. There is an acceptance in the report that the IHAT process has | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
thought of the problems that are caused when many cases foreseeable | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
and avoidable. The first printable that the report recommends to be | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
considered for the future is the importance of the report for service | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
personnel and that goes to the heart of this issue. No one wants to see | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
innocent members of the Armed Forces unfairly accused of wrongdoing. They | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
do a difficult and dangerous job of the most part they do it extremely | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
well. Justice cannot be served as processes are managed in a | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
transparent and expedition way. This important that the MoD accepted that | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
if poor or illegal practices are taught to service personnel the name | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
of needs to step up rather than letting individuals take the blame. | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
Of cases have been disposed of that must be assumed reopening can only | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
occur if compelling evidence is brought forward and similarly, cases | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
should only be opened after ten years and exceptional situations. | :33:31. | :33:32. | |
The decision to outsource the match was an helpful. The blanket closure | :33:33. | :33:39. | |
of IHAT cannot be seen as our primary responses. The desire to | :33:40. | :33:41. | |
distinguish between serious and spurious claims is laudable but no | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
indication has been given about how there can be determined without | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
judicial process. Service personnel deserve to know which judicial | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
process it will be and that choice will be well considered. So action | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
is needed to provide an alternative and avoiding the MOT being allowed | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
to continue with processes that are not independent or transparent. The | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
first solution is just to denigrate from the ECU char because when not | :34:05. | :34:13. | |
prepared, we are potentially copping it with my causing problems. There | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
was a danger of confusing them as what we cannot cannot do in that | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
context. I was disappointed to read that Attorney General's evidence | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
when he confessed to a having no knowledge. Given the history in the | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
badger was attending as a witness that was an extraordinary lack of | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
prepared nests. The Government must not pass responsibility. Differences | :34:41. | :34:47. | |
in interpretation could put our forces and others around them at | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
risk. The Secretary of State for Defence's justification that | :34:53. | :34:54. | |
military advisers that there is a risk of serious the undermining the | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
operational effectiveness of the Armed Forces just does not stack up. | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
It may be unpalatable to them on to the Government, but looking forward, | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
the truth is that that simply means that the MoD rising the defence of | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
human rights and its responsibility to our Armed Forces are they | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
cost-cutting measure. Whatever the solution is, that is no solution at | :35:14. | :35:15. | |
all. Can I start off by thanking everyone | :35:16. | :35:26. | |
that has taken part in the debates today? There have been a number of | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
very powerful speeches and I think a lot of very good points have been | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
made. I am limited by time so I am so they going to cut to some of the | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
observations I wanted to raise coming out of the IHAT issue. None | :35:38. | :35:45. | |
of us want to see members or former members of the Armed Forces treated | :35:46. | :35:56. | |
unfairly. There are a backlog of cases unresolved and many service | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
personnel faced uncertainty over the accusations faced. That is something | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
we're not operable with so we must have adequate resources an | :36:05. | :36:11. | |
investigation of allegations and a system to identify allegations | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
without substance and throw them out, which did not happen initially | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
with IHAT. As I said last year, I would also favour a criminal charge | :36:19. | :36:26. | |
into wasting police time where appropriate, where there have been | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
frivolous allegations made against service personnel is that only | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
served to bog down our investigators, cost taxpayers money | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
and impose suffering on service personnel investigated on spurious | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
grounds. The possibility of pursuing the prosecution of time wasters | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
would prevent unfounded cases being brought and investigated. I also | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
want to comment on the government's decision to derivate from article 25 | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
of the European convention on human rights as a response to the | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
situation that arose with IHAT and has been more widely discussed | :37:05. | :37:13. | |
today. I am concerned that that decision sends the wrong message to | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
the rest of the world about our commitment to human rights. To be | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
clear, I believe that service personnel must be held to the high | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
standards of behaviour that we expect but be fully supported by the | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
MOD where allegations are made. That means being offered proper legal | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
representation and support. Allegations must be taken seriously | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
but equally serious must be the consequences of bringing fictitious | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
cases as many of us suspect may have been the case previously. Finally, | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
on the argument put forward by the honourable member for New Forest | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
East at PMQs yesterday and messed mentioned by the Member for Lagan | :37:51. | :37:58. | |
Valley, regarding the use of a statute of limitation in cases. -- | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
and mentioned by. Certainly, this is a proposal we should look at | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
seriously. It is certainly worth considering and I hope it is | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
something that can be taken for and investigated properly. Justice being | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
done and includes fairness to Armed Forces personnel, who are entitled | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
to due process, answering the allegations made within a reasonable | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
time frame. There will be exceptions and we have to be careful with these | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
issues. The sources have our support and gratitude for difficult work. | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
They are also defending our values. That means that they must live by | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
the same values they defend with such distinction and we must ensure | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
that we look after our personnel and treat them with fairness. It is a | :38:43. | :38:56. | |
privilege to follow the members for Stirling and East Renfrewshire | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
because I think that we are getting close to the conclusion of the | :39:00. | :39:01. | |
debate today and they have widened the scope of it to the entirety of | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
the content of our motion. Once we have a particular and strong view on | :39:07. | :39:13. | |
the history and experience faced in Northern Ireland, there is a wider | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
challenge for government which the motion seeks to address and I am | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
grateful for those comments. I was mildly apprehensive that coming | :39:23. | :39:24. | |
towards the conclusion of this debate I would find myself repeating | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
points already made. Now that I have been bestowed with the | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
responsibility of summing up the debate, my responsibilities happily | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
live with my apprehensions are so I'm keen to summarise what I think | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
has been an important debate. Given the seriousness, not only of this | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
singular issue, but the wide range of complex political dilemmas that | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
we face in Northern Ireland, we have the rare opportunity to have such a | :39:54. | :40:02. | |
wholesome and fulsome debate. On behalf of my party I hope it is in | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
order for me to thank all those members who have dissipated, either | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
through substantive speeches or interventions. Some of the Neuer | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
date, some pointed but all have contributed to the substance and | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
importance of this debate and for that I am grateful. My my honourable | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
friend, the Member for Lagan Valley, I think commenced this debate are | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
superbly. He did so with a level of dignity that befits this issue. But | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
it cuts to the core of the problem and whilst many members, following | :40:35. | :40:41. | |
his contribution, sort to emulate the aspiration that we would have | :40:42. | :40:43. | |
balance in how we deal with legacy cases, very, very few touched on the | :40:44. | :40:53. | |
core of the problem. And I say this in response to the Secretary of | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
State and I am grateful for the contribution that he made but also | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
to the responding minister. Knowing that you will not be able to give a | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
wholesome commitment, but to keep alive in your mind that to solely | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
leave the resolution to this problem with the Stormont House agreement | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
and the legacy resolutions in Northern Ireland continues to allow | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
a veto by those associated with the greater perpetrators of crime and | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
terror in Northern Ireland, and that would be a shame. If we're going to | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
purposely look at balance, and I think is important that government | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
consider carefully and clearly how they are going to address the | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
imbalance of the provisions of the Good Friday agreement, where | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
terrorists and paramilitaries get a get out of jail free card into two | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
years. It is clearly available in public discourse. It was legislated | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
for and endorsed in a referendum but it is wrong. It is imbalanced, | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
imperfect, and iniquitous to those who struggle with the memory of | :42:02. | :42:09. | |
loved ones. So I do hope that that is a conundrum that we are working | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
to address. Similarly, and it has been gone through in great detail, | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
the other scheme. Consecutive governments, not just a Labour | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
government, but that is where it has found its genesis. The Liberal | :42:26. | :42:27. | |
government created a system where they encourage amnesty or | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
terrorists, where those who had extradition orders sought and | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
whenever pursuit. When people were allowed to travel back into the UK | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
without even the fear or prospect of arrest, enquiry, investigation, | :42:41. | :42:50. | |
never mind prosecution. Even the Director of Public Prosecutions in | :42:51. | :42:52. | |
Northern Ireland, much maligned in all of this, helpfully contributed | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
to the Northern Ireland affairs Select Committee enquiry, and | :42:58. | :43:06. | |
highlighted how did a position this was for investigating authorities. | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
And for as long as there is an imbalance in favour of those who | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
perpetrate crime and terrorism in Northern Ireland, this is an issue | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
that we will continue to raise. I think it is brought in to say that | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
out of the enormous contributions that were made, there are former | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
members of Parliament who could have been here but yet are not. The | :43:28. | :43:34. | |
members for West Tyrone, West Belfast and Armagh, and Mid Ulster, | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
they all have a view on how we should deal with soldiers and | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
servicemen in this country. It has put them in the dock and put them in | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
jail. Yet they are not here and they are not making those | :43:51. | :43:52. | |
representations. They enjoy the veto that they have had up until now but | :43:53. | :44:00. | |
I hope that is something which is going to change. The issues that we | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
have dealt with this afternoon to draw on emotion. We saw that from | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
the honourable lady from Seth Doane. We reflected on her personal | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
experience in Northern Ireland. Our experience has crossed Buzaglo | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
divides. The horrors that our community has faced, individuals | :44:23. | :44:24. | |
sitting around me have faced, is real and does not discriminate | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
across political boundaries. When my honourable friend delves into the | :44:31. | :44:41. | |
emotion of the historical issues we have faced in Northern Ireland, I | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
don't think anyone in this chamber lost the importance of this issue. | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
No matter how personally and deeply affected we may have been in the | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
past, it is real today. And that is why in drafting, as a party, a | :44:56. | :45:04. | |
motion in the name of the Member for Lagan Valley, a motion that we hoped | :45:05. | :45:11. | |
would obtain the unanimous agreement of this House, that the government | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
should bring forward measures to make sure that there is balance, | :45:15. | :45:16. | |
that the honourable member for Seth Antrim, who said in his comments | :45:17. | :45:23. | |
that the duty falls on us all to find a way forward, that is the | :45:24. | :45:25. | |
thing we should focus on. -- South Antrim. I'm not going to spend much | :45:26. | :45:34. | |
time focusing on the latter Cameron is of the contribution because I do | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
not think they were worthy to the entirety of this debate or to the | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
sentiment he was expressing himself. -- his latter comments within his | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
distribution. Having probably not fulfilled my obligation in | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
reflecting the contributions of all of those who participated, I think | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
we have had a most useful, a most important and in most timely debate | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
here this afternoon. The onus very much lies with government. What we | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
are talking about this afternoon cannot be dealt with in Northern | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
Ireland, it cannot be dealt with through the Stormont House | :46:10. | :46:17. | |
structures. The challenge is there, but want us there, the desire, the | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
necessity for balance and fairness and equality that is talked about | :46:23. | :46:29. | |
often. That is there with government and I hope the government takes this | :46:30. | :46:38. | |
opportunity to respond. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to begin by | :46:39. | :46:47. | |
thanking the speakers from all sides of the House. Following on from the | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
Member for East Belfast who was very generous in welcoming all of the | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
contributions from the House some differing views. But the generosity | :46:58. | :47:04. | |
I would like to offer is to the people who spoke with passion on | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
this issue. Having been through the Westminster Hall debates, visiting | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
the tearooms, I have received many dozens of letters from MPs and | :47:13. | :47:21. | |
constituents on this matter. And I know that the Member for Lagan | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
Valley, who I've spoken to about this, was also reflected in the | :47:29. | :47:36. | |
Westminster Hall debate. He clearly, very powerfully led that a few weeks | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
ago. This is an incredibly important subject and one which generates that | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
great strength of feeling. I will try to address some of the issues | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
that have been raised. Before I do so, I think it is important that we | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
put on record this government's deep and abiding admiration for the | :48:00. | :48:02. | |
members of our Armed Forces and police, who have served not only | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
Northern Ireland, but in many other arenas as the motion before us today | :48:08. | :48:16. | |
notes. As the Secretary of State make clear, without it sacrifice, | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
putting their lives at risk to protect the people of Northern | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
Ireland from terrorists, willing to kill, bomb and Maine, and to | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
maintain the rule of law, those people have made that huge effort. | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
The peace process itself would quite simply have not acceded without | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
them. It is also the case that the vast majority of the more then | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
250,000 men and women who served in the Royal Ulster Constabulary and | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
the Armed Forces in Northern Ireland during the troubles carried out | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
their duties with exemplary professionalism. However, the rule | :48:53. | :49:00. | |
of law applies to all and must be allowed to take its course | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
independent of government and political interference. | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
Nevertheless, I would like to acknowledge the concern among many | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
veterans about her past events have been investigated in Northern | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
Ireland. The justice system in Northern Ireland is a devolved | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
matter and the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive and | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
assembly. However the government is concerned that the current system, | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
investigating the past, does not reflect the 90% of deaths in the | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
troubles that were caused by terrorists. And overall, | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
disproportionately are focused on the actions of soldiers and police. | :49:41. | :49:47. | |
Reform is needed and in the interests of all, including the | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
victims and survivors who suffered most, that is why the government, | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
this government supports a fool and faithful imitation of the sport | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
house agreement, to bring a new, balanced, and proportionate approach | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
to dealing with Northern Ireland's past, including a new historical | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
investigations unit to take over investigations into outstanding | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
troubles related deaths from the Police Service of Northern Ireland | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
and the police ombudsman. This will include investigations into the | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
murders of nearly 200 soldiers including those killed in the bus | :50:28. | :50:35. | |
bombing and the awful events at Warrenpoint. I would like to turn | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
now to some of the many thoughtful comments made by members of the | :50:40. | :50:41. | |
House. Where I cannot give full details | :50:42. | :50:49. | |
would like to write on some of them because there were some challenging | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
questions and some thought for contributions. The right Honourable | :50:56. | :51:06. | |
gentleman for Ealing North has always given an excellent | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
performance but I know, actually, having spent some time in the house | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
with him, his huge passion for Northern Ireland. Very considered | :51:18. | :51:24. | |
and thoughtful contributions. And actually, somebody who is in | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
forthright in offering me thoughts and exchanging his great knowledge | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
not just in the time I've been in this post but over recent years. And | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
I do PCH 's thoughts and I've bought one particular comment he made about | :51:41. | :51:47. | |
progress in the future requires a settlement of the past I thought was | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
a very, very appropriate thought. And I think it said much of the town | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
on the back of the contribution by the member for Lagan Valley. But at | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
the beginning of the debate talking about that template language that | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
was required in the debates and I thought that was important again. An | :52:10. | :52:19. | |
event in the election period has an opportunity to be unworthy of the | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
South but I think this debate has been very measured and very tempered | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
and I think we all value that contribution for the member from | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
Southdown. My honourable friend the member for Northwest Norwich, | :52:34. | :52:40. | |
Norfolk, my apologies, has inventing my ear on this issue because he is | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
so passionate about this for many many months and I know the | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
leadership is offered to colleagues on my side and on the other side is | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
respected and welcome. One of the points he raised was the fact that | :52:56. | :53:03. | |
the strength of our Armed Forces should be recognised. Quite often we | :53:04. | :53:12. | |
focus upon mistakes and errors and actually those 250,000 people, over | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
30 years were very restrained, made a massive contribution to peace in | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
bringing peace and maintaining peace and maintaining law and order in | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
place quite often that has resulted in chaos. The member for North | :53:27. | :53:34. | |
Antrim also mentioned the issue of 30,000 police officers who regained | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
were very professional in their approach and I have the great | :53:39. | :53:41. | |
privilege of working with many police officers a day who maintain | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
that professionalism. If I move onto the spokesman for the SNP, the | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
member for Edinburgh North and Leith. She talked about education | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
and the duty of those police officers and she raised the issue of | :53:57. | :54:03. | |
the cowardly attack yesterday and will condemn this in the house. This | :54:04. | :54:11. | |
group, this cult of people who are not worthy of living such a | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
wonderful place of Northern Ireland, who are trying to drag it back to | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
that place and that pass which we don't want to return to. Who not | :54:22. | :54:28. | |
only sorts to murder a police officer but actually the impact on | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
the family, the impact on those brave officers that are to go in and | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
actually address that device that was there and the impact on the | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
neighbouring community. We should recognise that massive contribution | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
and we should also just recognise that our security forces and our | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
police will continue to pursue these people and bring them to justice. My | :54:49. | :54:59. | |
honourable friend for Canterbury recognised the balance that was | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
needed actually in trying to address some of the issues and he | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
particularly talked about openly fresh evidence should be brought | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
forward, are only on that response. What to give reassurance on the | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
historical investigations unit. The legislation requiring the HR you | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
will include specific tests that must be met in order that previously | :55:23. | :55:33. | |
completed cases can be reopened for investigation, specifically that new | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
and credible evidence that was not previously available to the | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
authorities is needed before it will open and close cases, suggest to | :55:43. | :55:52. | |
give that reassurance. Will you also except a new element that has been | :55:53. | :55:59. | |
introduced, where there doesn't have to be new evidence possibly claim | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
that there are new ways of looking at the evidence and that is one of | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
three weaknesses in the case he's making. | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
The case is the present system is not appropriate. It is | :56:17. | :56:18. | |
disproportionate and renew the new system. I just laid out the debris | :56:19. | :56:25. | |
get to the point where we can implement the Stormont House | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
Agreement with an assembly that is working and functional then we have | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
an opportunity to address the very points that the honourable gentleman | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
for Canterbury raised in which your believers appropriate. The member | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
for North Belfast North, paid to beat as the Armed Forces as did many | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
others and also commented on the Calgary acts of those who sought to | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
murder a piece of sale yesterday. He raised the bravery. 7000 individuals | :56:52. | :57:00. | |
who were awarded bravery medals as a consequence of their contribution to | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
the operation. And I would also just like to agree with one specific | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
point that he raised which was that this claim that misconduct was rife. | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
The point that he made after that that we won't allow that this | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
history be rewritten and their different narrative, forward. Lots | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
of brave people out there went and serve them sought to bring peace and | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
maintain law and order and there was not rife misconduct in the British | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
forces. There were good people trying very hard to maintain law and | :57:36. | :57:46. | |
order. There had been years and 90% of those that had died had died at | :57:47. | :57:56. | |
the hands of terrorists. The Memphis Southdown have -- the member for | :57:57. | :58:05. | |
Southdown mentioned there should be a positive future for the assembly. | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
And young people wanting help. We all want to make sure we can get to | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
the other side and make that work. The honourable gentleman gave | :58:13. | :58:19. | |
vanishingly emotional speech. He talked about the sick, so I'm | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
tired... He was sick, sour and tired of those attacking the UDR. They | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
were very brave. I came back to my home in Yorkshire and they | :58:32. | :58:38. | |
continued, as many IUC officers did, going home with that threat. Love | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
God to save I've recognise the passion in which she supports them. | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
-- I have got to say. He released his emotions there and we just | :58:50. | :58:56. | |
recognise a good man. The member for Southampton talked about fairness | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
and balance and called for unity and I would say that we will have an | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
obligation, all of us, to make sure we get the other side of the | :59:04. | :59:11. | |
election. And that we seek to make sure we got a working in functioning | :59:12. | :59:19. | |
assembly. I would like to say just to reiterate, this Government | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
commitment to make progress on this issue following the elections next | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
week we'll have a massive obligation. The member for Belfast | :59:30. | :59:33. | |
is that it should not be the people of Northern Ireland and it should be | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
organised. We all want, the Secretary of State herself, we've | :59:39. | :59:40. | |
awkward interests in making this work. We will do anything we can to | :59:41. | :59:48. | |
make that a success. Thank you. The question is as on the order | :59:49. | :59:59. | |
paper. Vote. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
"no". We now come to the backbench business committee debate on | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
unaccompanied children in Greece and Italy. I'm just playing for time | :00:14. | :00:26. | |
while the changeover takes place. Alison McGovern to move the motion. | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
I do. I beg to move the motion as on the order paper relating to | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
unaccompanied children in increase and it's be. The protection of child | :00:35. | :00:43. | |
refugees is not a party political issue. It does not matter on which | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
benches we sit in this house or watercolour rosettes we were on | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
election day. The belief that we have duties and responsibilities to | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
refugee children is not particular to any one political party, to a | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
faction or to an ideology. I would like to start this debate by | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
thanking the other sponsors of the debate, the members for South | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
Cambridge, and for Glasgow North East. And by thanking the backbench | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
business committee for recognising the importance of this issue and the | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
bipartisan nature of the topic in granting us topic the debate today. | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
Just say few days after I presented the application to the committee to | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
secure this debate the Government made an announcement on child | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
refugees and it is there I must start. Let me be clear. The decision | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
to cancel the dubs scheme after admitting only 350 children shames | :01:43. | :01:52. | |
Britain. It must not stand. That amendment, one after a hard fight by | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
activists inside and outside the space was a symbol of recognition | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
from the Government that we can and should do more for those children in | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
need of our help. We all had different views about whether it | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
went far enough but we were united in our belief that we should honour | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
not only our international commitments but also the history and | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
legacy of our country. Lord's dubs of Battersea arrived in Britain a | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
refugee as part of the Kingdom of transport. One of the proudest | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
moments in the history of our country. He himself is living proof | :02:29. | :02:36. | |
that refugees are not a burden to our country or our culture but they | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
are a part of us and a part of the British family. But now this. 350 | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
children and the door slams shut. Only around half the number that one | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
man, the great Sir Nicholas Winton, managed to bring to this country. Is | :02:54. | :03:01. | |
this really it? We're not out of that we were led to believe there | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
would be a least 3000 children. Not enough for me but a good start. I am | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
sure I speak for many when I say I am angry that the Government has let | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
us all down. Worse though is the fate of children in Europe today and | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
thought they were coming to Britain. Children from Syria, Somalia or | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
Darfur or who have told journalists that they now may as well clamber | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
onto lorries to get to safety as they have given up on our country | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
keeping its promises. I'm grateful. She says were led to | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
expect would be least 3000 children. Toshiba called a statement by the | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
then Minister -- does she recall the statement that we will record to | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
settling individuals in the first year with a view to setting up to | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
3000 over the lifetime of this parliament majority of whom would be | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
children. Is it clear why this commitment has been broken? | :04:02. | :04:09. | |
My right honourable friend makes a very good point which I will direct | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
to the Minister. It is his responsibility to answer that | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
question today. The Government have made two arguments to justify this | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
decision and I will talk about pull factors in my contribution. But on | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
local authority capacity. It is not true that there is no space left for | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
dubs children in the care of local authorities would in fact, the Home | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
Office cannot make this claim because they have not even asked | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
about dubs spaces for the future. Take Lewisham, for example. They | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
have said they can take 23 children and they have received just one. So | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
how many places were offered by local authorities for dubs children? | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
Does the Home Office even know? If not they say... How can they say | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
there is no places left and I would like to ask the Minister, will he | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
published the biggest. Will you tell us how many children each local | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
authority is taken so that civil society groups and MPs can work with | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
them to try to get more space is open. This house deserves answers. | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
There is much more to be done working with local authorities to | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
resettle children under the scheme. We cannot and should not give up. | :05:25. | :05:32. | |
Would she like, as I would, and I'm sure other members would, to know | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
from the Government how many people have been allowed to come under the | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
Canada sponsorship scheme or the equivalent of the Canada sponsorship | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
scheme. As I understand it so far to people I been accommodated under the | :05:46. | :05:46. | |
scheme. I thank the honourable gentleman for | :05:47. | :05:57. | |
his question. Again, that question must be answered today by the | :05:58. | :06:05. | |
Minister. Now it is deeply depressing to start a debate that | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
was supposed to be focused on how to build on the Dubs amendment by | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
having to refight the same fight over and over again. Because this | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
debate is really about how we can do more for the many are accompanied | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
child refugees stuck in Greece and Italy. I will give way in just a | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
moment. I know that the Minister will talk about the fantastic | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
support this country offers to refugee camps in North Africa, about | :06:29. | :06:36. | |
how much we spend and that we do not want people to attempt the perilous | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
journey across the sea and I wholeheartedly agree with them. It | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
is right that we do everything possible to keep children out of the | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
hands of people traffickers. Now he wants people, least of all children, | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
boarding those boats and making that crossing, but we must move beyond | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
these generalities. We are talking about desperate individuals and the | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
fact is that hundreds of children do board those boats, they do end up in | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
Greece and Italy and when they arrive, they remain vulnerable to | :07:09. | :07:10. | |
the same traffickers who put them on the boats in the first place. They | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
are exploited physically and often sexually and they are made to see | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
and injury things that no child should ever have to. We know that | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
unaccompanied children are the most at risk and we know that as the | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
conflict continues unabated in Syria and parts of Africa, there are more | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
children arriving in Europe without an adult to look after them. I thank | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
the honourable lady for giving way. She is making a passionate case for | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
her view on this but I represent Dover. Across the channel we have | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
the Calais jungle, the biggest migrant magnet, or with people | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
condemned to live in squalor. They are there with the hope of getting | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
into Britain. The problem is that having a situation where we take | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
people in from Europe to simply -- just simply increases the migrant | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
problem. We know that because we are on the front line. As a member of | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
Parliament who also represents a port area of our country, I pay | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
tribute to all those people who work to keep our borders safe. I will | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
come to the argument that the honourable gentleman makes in just a | :08:21. | :08:31. | |
moment. Some of us last night were lucky enough to attend a screening | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
of Ross Kemp's documentary on Libya's migrant nightmare, a | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
harrowing account of what was going on in Libya at the moment. Would she | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
agreed with me, and I think it should be compulsory viewing for | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
everyone in this House, which she agree that given the amnesty on | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
calculations, with one in for four of those making the journey being | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
children, that it is incumbent on us to show more compassion than we are | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
currently in protecting this most vulnerable group? The honourable | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
gentleman makes a very good point and I am sure many would agree with | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
him. To put it simply, the risk for these children does not end when | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
they reached dry land. The boat may be behind them but the danger is | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
not. And we know that the refugee camps are overflowing with children | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
being left outside cold and alone. In Greece, only half of | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
unaccompanied child refugees are in official shelters and the rest are | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
in squats waiting for applications to be processed. Even if they do | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
find shelter, they are very vulnerable indeed and they simply | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
cannot -- this simply cannot go on. We have a duty to help these | :09:47. | :09:48. | |
children and we must not turn them away. One of the interesting points | :09:49. | :09:56. | |
about this is that some of these children have family in this country | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
and I would be interested to know how the Minister will respond to | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
this. Tell us how many of these children have outstanding | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
applications? Thank you. The honourable gentleman again raises an | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
absolutely crucial question. If by the end of this debate the Minister | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
has not answered his question, I think many of us will be up on our | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
feet demanding cancers. We had made great process working -- great | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
progress working with the French authorities to resettle children | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
under Dubs and the legislation where people have only members living in | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
this country. I welcome the progress made on that front but we're asking | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
Greece and Italy, two countries that are not equipped to deal with | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
refugee flows, to accommodate the vast majority. According to Unicef, | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
last year more than 30,000 unaccompanied children arrived in | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
those two countries alone and this is difficult to say the least for | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
these countries. Problematic for Europe and bad for the children | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
themselves. We know that despite our best efforts, children are still | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
making the journey alone. We know that they are riding in Greece and | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
Germany who were not able to deal with all of them. We know it is in | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
their best interests to be transferred to the UK, but why are | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
we not doing more to help? 30 children arrived in France and Italy | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
last night but just eight transferred to the UK. Their best | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
interests lie in a transfer to the UK. I am grateful to my my | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
honourable friend for giving way and congratulations on a speech of great | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
power. Many of us, particularly in the city constituencies, will have | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
extensive experience of working with former unaccompanied children | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
resident in this company. We know that the lengths of insecurity and | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
uncertainty that prevails before they are able to make a successful | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
application often leaves permanent damage to their mental health. Is it | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
not absolutely essential that we cut through this and provide certainty | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
for as many children as we can as quickly as we can. My friend speaks | :12:11. | :12:19. | |
with great experience and I hope the Minister has listened to what she | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
has said. In fact, if he is prepared to really consider this, he should | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
watch the documentary made by Liverpool footballer, Diane | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
Loughran, about his experience as a refugee, and the uncertainty that he | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
has experienced. I would encourage the Minister to take heed. But no | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
wonder that it has taken the best part of a year for many children's | :12:51. | :12:58. | |
application to be processed, leaving them in the limbo that my friend has | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
just mentioned. There are agencies in Greece and Italy working with | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
these referrals but they will not raise the hopes of children of the | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
process is so dire. The government is today must commit to streamlining | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
the system so that agencies and children have confidence in it and | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
can start making referrals quickly. We know that this can be done | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
because it was done in France were hundreds of applications or | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
processed in a matter of weeks. This situation is just not acceptable and | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
we must do more. Finally, Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to address one | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
particular argument that we hear constantly from the government when | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
we talk about resettling refugees. Alignment we have heard repeatedly. | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
Especially when talking about the Dubs amendment. She says that it | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
encourages people traffickers. It acts as an incentive for perilous | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
journeys. We heard it again today. That it is a draw for migrants. Mr | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
Speaker, I think the government must drop this feeble line of argument | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
once and for all. People are not getting on those boats because of | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
pull factor is, they are doing so because they are fleeing war, | :14:13. | :14:14. | |
poverty, famine and exportation in their own countries. Even a refugee | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
camp in Greece or Italy, dangerous though they are, is safer than the | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
hell they are running away from. We know this, the government knows | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
this. If they do not, they should try to understand the reality. | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
McHattie picture of the ruin of Homs or Aleppo and tell me again about | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
pull factor is. -- look at a picture. See the desperation on the | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
faces of starving people in Yemen or Somalia and explain to me again how | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
Dubs is an incentive. Speak to a child escaping forced servitude as a | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
soldier in Eritrea and repeat again to me that our immigration system is | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
a drop. It isn't, it wasn't and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. I asked | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
the Minister this. Does the government have any hard evidence to | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
support this claim and will he produce it? If they do really | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
believe in the pull factor nonsense, there was only one obvious change | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
that the government could make. Under the current system, children | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
and camps in the region can only be applied -- can only apply to be | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
transferred if they have a parent living in the UK to be reunited | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
with. But for children already in Europe, the rule can apply to | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
extended family, grandparents, siblings or aunts and uncles. Many | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
of these children are orphans. I genuinely thank her for giving way. | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
The idea that pull factor is do not exist just because push factors do | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
exist, does she not realise that that is an inappropriate construct. | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
There can be push factors and pull factor is. They are not mutually | :15:55. | :16:01. | |
exclusive. If the honourable gentleman is accepting that safety | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
-- is suggesting that safety is a pull factor. If he is suggesting | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
that not starving is a pull factor, I agree with them. If he is | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
suggesting that escaping the bombs dropping on a child's head is a pull | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
factor, then I entirely agree with him. To return to the point that I | :16:17. | :16:26. | |
was making, this is a debate that will go on. I think it is right that | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
we have this debate out in the open and members who disagree with me | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
will have the chance to make their case, too. I will not give way | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
because I need to finish now. Many of these children are orphans and | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
they do not have parents that they can be reunited with. But the | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
government is effectively saying that a child in a refugee camp in | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
North Africa, with a grandparent in the UK is not eligible, but if they | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
got on a boat and went to Italy, they would be. That is madness. Will | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
the Minister agree to look again at this and allow children in the | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
region to apply under Dublin to be reunited with their extended family | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
in the UK? Mr Speaker, there are many points, as he has heard from | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
members across this House, there are many points that the Minister must | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
address when he speaks. On Dublin, will he commit to improving the | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
system in Greece and Italy. Will he spent more staff, speed up the | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
processing of applications and work with agencies in those countries to | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
identify eligible children. We commit to allowing double in | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
transfers in the region to extensive transfers in the UK? And on Dubs, | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
will he show us the figures on local authority capacity? Will he at least | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
agreed to monitor capacity and increased numbers were possible? And | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
Wilkie, once and for all, drop the pretence that the main thing driving | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
children onto those boats is our immigration system, rather than war, | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
poverty and famine. Mr Speaker, I started by saying this is not a | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
party but it will issue and I stick by that. This is about British | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
values that we all share and our desire to honour those values across | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
Europe and the world. People are questioning whether we mean what we | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
say when we talk about Britain as a welcoming, open, tolerant and decent | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
country. It is up to us to show that we are who we say we are, that we | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
will live up to the legacy of our past, that we will not turn away | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
from the suffering and desperation of children on our own doorsteps who | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
need our help. The question is as on the order paper. Can I suggest to | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
all members that we have up to nine minutes and if everybody can work to | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
that, everybody will get equal time. The Minister now wants to come in. | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
Thank you very much indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I find | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
vulnerable members for bringing this motion to the House? I am grateful | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
for your agreement to allow me to speak early in this debate. -- can I | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
thank honourable members. I thought it would be hopeful to set up the | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
government's position on this important matter at the outset and I | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
want to correct many of the points already made in this debate and in | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
the media. Britain has a proud record of helping the most | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
vulnerable children fleeing conflict and danger and I would like to | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
underline this government's commitment to supporting, protecting | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
and caring for the most vulnerable asylum seeking and refugee children | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
affected by the migration crisis. I would like to start with one thing. | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
This government is absolutely and fully committed to helping and | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
supporting the most vulnerable children. In the last year, we have | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
provided refuge or other forms of relief to more than 8000 children. | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
In the first two weeks of this month alone, we have resettled more than | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
300 refugees to the UK, half of whom are children. Just today, 80 Syrian | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
refugees arrived in Ulster as part of the Syrian vulnerable Persons | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
scheme. The government has certainly not, as some have suggested, closed | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
its doors. The government strategy is to resettle the most vulnerable | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
refugees directly to other regions. That is how we stop traffickers from | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
exploiting vulnerable people and children affected by conflict. By | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
the end of this Parliament, we will have resettled 20,000 Syrian | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
nationals through our vulnerable persons resettlement schemes, one of | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
the biggest resettlement schemes the country has ever undertaken. And a | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
further 3000 vulnerable children and families from the Middle East and | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
North Africa region will have been settled under the vulnerable | :20:25. | :20:26. | |
children is resettlement scheme. I'm pleased to update the House that | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
over 5400 individuals, slightly more than the one that was mentioned by | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
the honourable member have been resettled under the Syrian | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
vulnerable persons scheme since its expansion in October 20 15. | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
The scheme I was referring to was the | :20:46. | :20:58. | |
Canadian sponsorship scheme. I met with representatives and I was | :20:59. | :21:07. | |
in Jordan visiting refugee camps there and we have a scheme in place | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
as part of these 20,000 for community groups to take people to | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
come here. Incidentally, could I confirm, under the dubs proposals if | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
grandparents can show they can care for children than they can come here | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
under Dublin from another EU country. The children must first | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
claim asylum in the country which should be the first set country they | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
reach. Crucially, horror resettlement schemes help ensure | :21:33. | :21:34. | |
that children do not become unaccompanied. They allow children | :21:35. | :21:47. | |
to be resistant with their families. I am grateful for him for setting up | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
the clarity around this issue. I want to be absolutely sure, can you | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
confirm that the Government is still continuing to accept children into | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
this country? As I said, last year we had a | :22:04. | :22:12. | |
roundabout 8000 children and there are 4500 unaccompanied children in | :22:13. | :22:14. | |
local authority care at this moment. We are pledged over to the book -- | :22:15. | :22:27. | |
over 2 million. We want other countries to commit to our amount. | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
With committed over 100 million to help alleviate the crisis. I am | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
proud of the part that we have played in this particular matter. | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
Thank you for holding a surgery for MPs to clarify a point and then his | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
brief but could I do is ask him, does he believe that statement on | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
the seventh of brew was on my mother will love this house on the dubs | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
amendment? I will come onto that and it is | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
important that one reads the dubs amendment and looks at the | :23:06. | :23:07. | |
amendments that were rejected by this house in that regard. Within | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
Europe in 2016 be transferred over 900 unaccompanied asylum seekers to | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
the UK from other European countries including more than 750 from France | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
as part of the UK support of the Calle camp clearance. According to | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
the latest resettlement reports on July 2015, the UK has resettled more | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
people towards the's overall resettlement target than any other | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
EU member states and in an 2016 were transferred almost as many children | :23:39. | :23:45. | |
from within Europe as the entire EU relocation. With UK support Unicef | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
aim rough ride shelter, food, essential supplies for 27,000 | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
children and babies. UK aid to the Red Cross supported activities | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
including family to nutrition and we also funded a secondment of a child | :23:59. | :24:06. | |
is protection specialist to work in Serbia. In Greece who spent ?28 | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
million to support migrants and refugees to keep an such as the | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
UNHCR and the Red Cross. The support has reached more than 250,000 | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
people. Thank you for setting up the fax of | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
this matter. Would he agree that we have to be careful about unintended | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
consequences? The sentiments of the other side of the house are very | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
sincere and our good intentions but is the roadster the hell of the | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
Calle jungle is paved with those kind of attention and we cannot have | :24:42. | :24:49. | |
that kind of squalor existing again. We must be of factors that be | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
created when people make statements which can encourage people to enlist | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
people traffickers. I thank the Minister for giving way. | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
Does he recognise the best selling technique for the smugglers is there | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
is no alternative safe and legal route for children to get to safety | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
in the United Kingdom? The hope onto the Grubman Pozner | :25:17. | :25:23. | |
approaches to help them making that journey. These are not orphaned | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
children. These are children whose parents are sending them forward. | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
One looks at the mortality in the Mediterranean weather children make | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
that journey. Factors encourage people to make those jennies and | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
many people sadly end in a watery grave. -- those journeys. Our fund | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
prioritises unaccompanied and separated children. It provides | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
immediate support alongside legal advice and family reunification were | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
possible. In France we responded to a humour Terry and needs in tandem | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
with a sovereign member state. We continue to closely with the French | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
to address the situation in Dunkirk but both the UK and French | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
Government are clear that migrants in northern France want claim | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
asylum, including children, should do so in France and not risk their | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
lives by attempting to enter the UK illegally. The French Government has | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
made clear commitments to provide migrants who have claimed asylum | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
with appropriate support. Those asylum seeking children close family | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
members in the UK, not just parents, can be transferred here for | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
assessment of their claim. We are fully committed to the timely and | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
efficient operation of the Dublin regulation and we support the | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
principle of family unification. We have engage with partners on this | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
issue and we will continue to do so over the coming weeks and months to | :26:51. | :26:52. | |
ensure that children with close family in the UK can be transferred | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
here for assessment of their asylum claim quickly and safely. We're also | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
working closely with the member states to deliver this. If I could | :27:02. | :27:14. | |
make a bit of progress. Mr Deputy Speaker, I am praised deliberate | :27:15. | :27:22. | |
pleased that the Home Secretary will be writing to counterparts to us for | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
referrals for eligible children to the specified number 350. The basis | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
on which these transfers will be made with published in due course. | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
The Government has always been clear that we want... That we do not want | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
to incentivise perilous journey to Europe, particularly by the most | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
honourable children. It is not and has never been the case, as been | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
suggested, that the Government would accept 3000 children from Europe | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
under 67. I would just make this point because this has been | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
misrepresented on many occasions in the past. It has been suggested that | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
the Government would accept 3000 children from Europe under 60 seven. | :27:58. | :28:06. | |
In fact, parliament voted against such an amendment. The legislation | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
is clear that the Government has the obligation to specify the number of | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
children to be relocated and to relocate back number of children to | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
the UK. That is exactly what we're doing. There is been some suggestion | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
that my lead assessor confirmed that 3000 children would come and be | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
resettled. He was actually referring to the vulnerable children to | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
resettlement scheme and we are committed to bringing 3000 children | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
and their families under that scheme by the end of the parliament. We | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
consulted extensively... Are just need to make stop we consulted | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
extensively with local authorities over several months to arrive at the | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
number of additional children that they could take under 67. This | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
included my predecessor biting, and I've also written to all local | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
authorities, in national want of the event and over ten regional events | :28:57. | :29:05. | |
in every part of England. Over 400 local authority brothers and sisters | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
attended the regional events. In order to help local authorities care | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
for over 4000 children already in their care we have launched a | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
national transfer scheme and significantly increased funding for | :29:18. | :29:19. | |
unaccompanied asylum seeking children. Children by between 20% | :29:20. | :29:26. | |
and 20%. Should be clear that the knot by night 7% is not a target, it | :29:27. | :29:34. | |
is an indication of when it would not be appropriate to transfer for | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
the children to that local authority. | :29:38. | :29:45. | |
I will give way. Several local authorities including Glasgow City | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
Council have spoken to say that they were not consulted on their capacity | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
to house refugees and they do remain ready, able and willing to accept | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
more and shelter more unaccompanied children. Will the Minister clarify | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
if his department regularly re-consult with local authorities to | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
maintain an up-to-date overview of capacity for the children? | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
I engage regularly with local authorities will double their places | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
in Scotland then please make them available for national transfer | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
scheme because we have local authorities in the south of England, | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
particularly in Kent in Croydon, that are running over capacity. If | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
spaces are available for the national transfer scheme. | :30:27. | :30:39. | |
Can I just say, can I take him back to the point he was making about the | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
numbers of staff from the Home Office who are in France and Greece | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
and Italy? I want to ask. What he was saying was that they wanted | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
stuff out there to help with this scheme but at the dinner meeting | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
that we had with him he mentioned there was only one member of the | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
Home Office staff out there. Can I suggest the run more stuff out there | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
then there would be more confidence in the right children being referred | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
under the scheme. We have 115 staff increased at the | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
minute. Not least the successful operation of the Turkey agreement | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
which is preventing children making this perilous journeys. | :31:19. | :31:29. | |
I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way but can I take him back | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
to a point that I made in my honourable friend earlier? Any time | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
how many outstanding applications for children who have got relatives | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
in this country and want to come to this country? | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
I can certainly let him have that number but of course following the | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
clearance of the Calle camp we have accelerated Dublin plate process and | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
the majority of the 750 children everybody across from France work | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
children under the Dublin process. When children think they have a | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
claim under the Dublin procedure what they need to do is claim asylum | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
in the country there are in and therefore they can be fed into the | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
Dublin process will Dobbs is important they do that first. | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
The independent anti-slavery Commissioner visited Italy last year | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
made recommendations and said about the Dublin process that simply the | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
process is not working for children will start their taking too long, | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
combined the back of clear information about how places work in | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
terms of specific updates about the case. It is not working. And we need | :32:33. | :32:40. | |
to ensure that for the benefit of the children networks for the good | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
of them and their relatives. Is there going to be a response to the | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
corner from the independent anti-slavery Commissioner? | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
It is indeed very important that the Dublin process works effectively and | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
also takes into account the safeguarding of the children and | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
shakes do need to be made to ensure that the family connection is a | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
genuine one but also that those children will be cared for and | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
indeed, we have had a number of children admitted under the Dublin | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
protocol where actually that has not worked out and that is why the | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
specified number that was set with local authorities has left some | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
slack in there. 50 places for failed Dublin B locations. We sped back to | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
be a minimum number. The Minister has medical shall point | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
here. That so many children who have come here by asylum or Irish | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
refugees, who are originally put with family members, are actually | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
being part of the trafficking system. And they've ended up being | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
trafficked. His crucial point and I'm glad the Government recognises | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
that. Precisely. Those answer the point | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
that my honourable friend has made before I may take another | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
intervention. That is why the chicks need to be made and it is also why | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
give resources to local authorities ensure that they can themselves | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
check the welfare of the children. I will certainly give way. I wonder | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
if he could give an exact same detailed analysis and responds to | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
the honourable gentleman about how many people have been convicted in | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
the UK for such trafficking in the last year. How many people have been | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
convicted for those offences and also, he wouldn't mind laying out in | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
the House of Commons library for us the evidence, Pat surveys that has | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
led him to emphasise the pool factors. Has there been a survey | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
done of people coming in because I would like to know what the evidence | :34:39. | :34:40. | |
is? Certainly we take the prosecution | :34:41. | :34:47. | |
and detection of people trafficking crime very seriously, particularly | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
working closely with our French colleagues. I was last week in | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
Holland and Belgium meeting with my opposite numbers and we have joint | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
operations at the ports to insure these people trafficking gangs can | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
be arrested and prosecuted and there has been a number of situations | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
where that has happened and I will give the actual numbers but there | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
have been a number of successful prosecutions. | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
I would like to make a bit process if May. Want to talk about the | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
trafficking issue that has been raised. I want to address the issue | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
of trafficking put up must make clear one thing in particular. The | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
Government agrees that is safe legal routes can help combat trafficking. | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
That is why we have six other legal routes by which children can safely | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
come to the United Kingdom. But the migration crisis has shown that | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
factors such as policy changes and political messaging can influence | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
the movement of migrants. There must be reasonable example why around | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
2000 asylum seekers in the EU last year chose Germany and Sweden. And | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
it is important to note they did so after passing through many save | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
countries on the route. But whether it is push or pull factors that | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
motivate these children to come to Europe, it must surely always be | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
within the charred's best interests to enable them to come before the | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
need to make dangerous journey to your about before they become | :36:07. | :36:07. | |
unaccompanied. The government's priority is to | :36:08. | :36:16. | |
focus on the most vulnerable children fleeing conflict and the | :36:17. | :36:24. | |
persecution of the region. Whilst the Minister is just laying out the | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
government's priority is here, can he be clear about what he has said | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
about capacity increase? He says we have 115 staffing increases. Of | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
those, -- staff in Greece. Of those, how many are working on transfers to | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
the UK? I could give you the figures but we have 115 people there. Our | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
work in Calais showed that there are only a handful of children from | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
Syria. I know this motion talks specifically about children from | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
Syria, and she talked about children fleeing Aleppo and horrible | :37:01. | :37:03. | |
situations in Syria. In that case, would she be surprised to note that | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
of the 750 children that came from Calais during equivalence, less than | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
ten came from Syria. That is why I believe we are doing the right thing | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
in going to the refugee camps and working with UNHCR, ruling out | :37:19. | :37:26. | |
similar schemes to the ones that the Australians, Canadians and Americans | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
have been delivering, to enable both children and the most need to come | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
to the UK. If our aim is a country is to help those most in need | :37:35. | :37:36. | |
fleeing conflict and persecution, then the government strategy is the | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
right one. I welcomed the statement last week by the UN High | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
Commissioner for refugees, where he said that in relation to | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
resettlement, the UK is doing very remarkable things. The UK has a | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
proud history of providing protection for those in need and we | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
will continue to play our part in protecting the most vulnerable | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
children affected by the migration crisis. The government has taken | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
significant steps to improve an already come brands of approach to | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
supporting asylum seeking and refugee children. We will continue | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
to work to address the migration crisis and I believe the UK can be | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
proud of its overall contribution to date and proud that we will continue | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
to deliver on the programmes I have described. | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
Can I congratulate my my honourable friend the Member for 1-1 south, the | :38:29. | :38:36. | |
Member for South East Cambridgeshire and others, for securing this | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
important and timely debate. -- the member forward or so. Can I start by | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
welcoming the water government has done to support refugees, the work | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
that has been done to invest in camps in the region, to set up the | :38:49. | :38:59. | |
Syrian vulnerable persons refugee scheme, and also the work that was | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
done last autumn to clear the Calais camp and get children into safety. | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
There has been a lot of important work done including by the Minister | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
that has just spoken and by the Home Secretary is well and we should | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
welcome that. I pay tribute to the work they did with the French | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
authorities in the autumn which got a lot of kids out of deeply | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
dangerous circumstances in Calais and Dunkirk, or very work at huge | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
risks of drafting, getting them into centres, bringing many vulnerable | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
children to this country, and it was Britain doing our bit to help some | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
of the most vulnerable and at risk children. We have examples of | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
teenage girls from Eritrea who have been abused, raped, who have been | :39:45. | :39:52. | |
through terrible ordeals, and who are now safe in schools in Britain. | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
We have examples of 12-year-olds from Afghanistan now safe with | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
foster parents instead of living in terrible conditions in northern | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
France. We have teenagers reunited now with family in the UK rather | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
than living in such a unsafe conditions. But it is because that | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
was working, that partnership between Britain and France was | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
working, that it was so shocking to many of us to hear the announcement | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
the government made on the 8th of February that it was not only | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
causing the thyme scheme but it was also ending the fast-track double in | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
scheme that have made so much difference to so many of those | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
children and teenager's lives. I wonder whether she would agree with | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
me that it did feel when we heard that news that it was against the | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
will of this House and against the members in this House who had | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
debated, voted and in good faith believed that the government was | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
going to do something under the Dubs Amendment. This was cross-party | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
debate and cross-party work and all of us supported the Dubs amendment, | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
just as it was cross-party pressure that got the government to set up | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
the 20,000 Syrian scheme in the first place. I think there has been | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
strong support for this from all sides of the House. That strong | :41:14. | :41:22. | |
support was not simply to help for only six months. That is the real | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
problem with what the government has done. It took them seven months to | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
get the scheme going and it has only been running for six months and the | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
government has decided to pull the plug. I believe that does not go in | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
the spirit of the Dubs amendment that was agreed. I will give way. I | :41:39. | :41:46. | |
thank my honourable friend for giving way and also for the speech | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
she has made. Would she agree that the shock that we feel in this House | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
at the abandonment of the Dubs amendment is echoed in our | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
constituencies and by our constituents? Many of them have | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
written to me specifically about the plight of children who, in a world | :42:05. | :42:14. | |
which is closing the doors on so many different people's migration, | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
that the plight of these children has really inspired constituents | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
around the country. I think my honourable friend what was right. | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
There are many people in the country deeply disappointed by this. It was | :42:27. | :42:33. | |
working. It was saving lives and helping futures. Charities told the | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
Home Affairs Select Committee yesterday that they estimated there | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
had been a drop in the number of children and teenagers trying to get | :42:41. | :42:49. | |
here illegally. We were reducing the dangerous illegal journeys by | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
providing managed work with other countries as well. And that is | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
crucially important to clear the Calais camp, to prevent trafficking | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
and modern slavery, and to prevent dangerous illegal journeys. | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
Ministers have given four reasons, firstly that the French want a | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
closet and local authorities have no capacity, and that they have | :43:17. | :43:18. | |
delivered on the Dubs amendment. Let's take each in turn. Yesterday, | :43:19. | :43:26. | |
the Home Affairs Select Committee heard from one of the Childress | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
Commissioners, and there are four agencies doing important work in | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
Greece and Italy and along the French coast. They were all | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
categoric that this would increase, not reduce, the trafficking risk, | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
increase the number of children and young people who ended up in the | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
arms of traffickers and smugglers gangs, not reduce it by taking away | :43:48. | :43:54. | |
safe and legal routes. The Member for south-east game butcher and I | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
visited Dunkirk in Calais on Monday, and we met 13 and 14-year-olds in | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
Dunkirk who had been in the Calais camps. They had gone into safe | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
accommodation but for all kinds of complicated reasons their claims had | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
been turned down and they had lost hope. They got lost in a system and | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
they were back, now, in Dunkirk, in a dangerous situation. This camp, | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
seriously, I am at a loss to know how this camp is allowed to continue | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
as it has because this has clearly been run by a smuggling gang. There | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
is no doubt about what is happening in this Dunkirk camp. But these two | :44:31. | :44:38. | |
teenage boys were sleeping in a hut with 80 adult men. It was deeply | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
unsafe. When we asked them, they said they felt unsafe. They had gone | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
back there because they had lost hope in the legal system adding them | :44:47. | :44:54. | |
to safety. I will give way. My feeling about this is that is | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
terrible. That is really bad but why are the French not doing anything | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
about it? Why are the French not dealing with that situation? They | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
should be doing it. It is in France. France is not an unsafe country. | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
Lots of people live there are quite safely. So why are we worried about | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
us doing this when it should be the French in that situation? I will say | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
to the honourable member that I think the French should be dealing | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
with the trafficking that is taking place in Dunkirk. Of course they | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
should and should be enforcement work. Frankly, I think other | :45:30. | :45:31. | |
countries need to do so as well because you can be in no doubt that | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
the gang that is operating to take families across from Dunkirk to | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
Britain will also have a lot of operations in Britain as well. There | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
ought to be co-ordinated police action against that trafficking | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
gang. That is absolutely important. But what was working in the autumn | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
was joint action tween Britain and France to get the children into | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
French centres. Some of them were then going into the asylum system in | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
France and into safety in France and rightly so. Some of the others, | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
perhaps the most vulnerable, perhaps those with family in Britain, or | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
getting century in Britain. The teenagers we spoke to said they had | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
family in Britain. They said they had been turned down that they had | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
been given no reason, no piece of paper, nothing in the system to tell | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
them why they had been turned down and as a result, they turned up in | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
Dunkirk, in Calais, and you could see more and more children starting | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
to arrive in Calais and Dunkirk and going back, at risk, pushed by the | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
fact that the legal safe route had been taken away. I will give way. In | :46:38. | :46:46. | |
response to the honourable member, I was with the member in Dunkirk and I | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
came away thoroughly depressed and angry with the French authorities | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
for letting this happen again. It took me a few days to digest what we | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
have seen but I came away feeling that it is not right and they should | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
be doing more but the point is that they are not. And if we do not work | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
further downstream with Greece and Italy, they will continue to come | :47:07. | :47:13. | |
back. Dunkirk is like Groundhog Day, it is Calais two. If they come back, | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
it will be our problem. The honourable member is right and that | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
is why we need to prevent those young people ending up in Calais and | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
Dunkirk in the first place. That means work through Dublin and Dubs, | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
whether it is in France, or better still Greece and Italy to prevent | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
them travelling in the first place, and to have all countries work | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
together to share responsibility for these deeply vulnerable young | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
people. Secondly, and I will make some progress because I am conscious | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
of the time, the French have urged us to stop the template scheme but | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
the evidence from President Hollande is actually the reverse. I am | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
worried that the cooperation we had in the autumn appears to have broken | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
down. Thirdly, they have said that local authorities do not have | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
capacity but the evidence we have heard from local authorities | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
yesterday showed that in fact the Local Government Association said | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
they have been consulted not specifically on Dubs but on the | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
national transfer scheme. We should have more detailed consultations on | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
Dubs. We heard from local councils who wanted to offer more places but | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
actually those places had not been taken up and if local authorities | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
met the 0.0% target that the government has said was appropriate, | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
then they would have 3000 more places on top of those already taken | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
by those who have arrived spontaneously. I will make progress | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
because the Deputy Speaker wants to move on. Fourthly... The government | :48:38. | :48:49. | |
has said that we have met the spirit of the Dubs amendment. I think that | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
is simply not the case. Not only is this not meeting the spirit of the | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
Dubs amendment but also the government is failing again on the | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
Dublin agreement. The double agreement was temporarily to move | :49:03. | :49:10. | |
towards the expedited sesame had in France. Ministers say they will | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
learn from that but they do not seem to be doing so. In answer to the | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
honourable member question from Loughborough, the Minister said that | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
somehow there were 115 people in Greece. The charities told us | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
yesterday that was one person working on child transfers. Only one | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
in Greece. One in Italy and one in France. That is not enough to even | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
reviewed the double in cases that the Home Office says they will | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
review. The double cases that were turned down. I do not see how they | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
are going to review those cases it none of those children have the | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
paperwork or have been given any formal response as to why their case | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
has been turned down, and they have no response by which to apply to | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
have a case reviewed. Mr Debbie Speaker, the government has done | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
some good things, don't rip it up. -- Mr Deputy Speaker. There is what | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
some of the child refugees we have helped asset. | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
Many of us have been traded like groups of cattle among smugglers, | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
many of us know someone who has died. Another said, smuggling people | :50:13. | :50:20. | |
and sexually abusing children, the smugglers are ruling not nice | :50:21. | :50:29. | |
people. We have been preventing some of the illegal and dangerous routes. | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
It is only a limited part of the refugee crisis but it is about | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
Britain doing its bit. It was about Britain being better than this. It | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
was something that we were proud of and we really urge the Minister to | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
reopen the Dubs scheme, have a proper Government progress -- | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
process and let Britain help refugees again. Mr Deputy Speaker. | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
30,000 unaccompanied children entered Greece and Italy last year. | :51:03. | :51:10. | |
Are we simply to leave them there? While this great country with a | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
tradition of offering asylum over hundreds of years to those who are | :51:14. | :51:21. | |
fleeing persecution stands back and washes its hands of their fate was | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
to mark I do not believe that it is in the interests of this country, | :51:28. | :51:35. | |
its reputation internationally, its moral sense of self worth and | :51:36. | :51:43. | |
dignity, for us simply to stand back and say, "That is not our problem, | :51:44. | :51:52. | |
it is yours". I completely accept that great work has been done in the | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
region to assist those in this plight. But I do not believe that we | :51:59. | :52:06. | |
can afford, as a nation, the damage to our reputation that is currently, | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
as I understand it, happening throughout Europe, by being seen to | :52:11. | :52:18. | |
fail and fall down upon the obligations, modest as they are, | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
that we have undertaken in international law and otherwise to | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
assist with the plight of unaccompanied children in Europe. | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
Now as I understand it, Mr Deputy Speaker, the Dublin regulation | :52:34. | :52:41. | |
requires us, as a matter of law, to deal in the first instance with any | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
application for asylum that is made by a child who has family receiving | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
international protection in this country. That is an international | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
law obligation. And it is incumbent upon us, incumbent upon this house, | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
incumbent upon this Government to ensure that that obligation is not | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
simply paid lip service to but is made practical and effective, and I | :53:10. | :53:18. | |
can only be done, Mr Deputy Speaker, if we reach out into those tens of | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
thousands in Greece and Italy and we look actively to find those who are | :53:25. | :53:31. | |
in titles to be here under international law and whom this | :53:32. | :53:34. | |
Government on the half of this house and this nation has promised to deal | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
with them because it is our obligation. I fear for the | :53:40. | :53:47. | |
reputation of this country that assumes an obligation and does not | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
provide the means to make that obligation real. Would the | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
honourable gentleman give way? Yes I will. He is making an immensely | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
powerful speech. And does he agree with me that it isn't just our legal | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
obligation but actually the moral obligation that we have two refugees | :54:07. | :54:16. | |
to give them refuge? That is one of our best defences against the | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
tyrants, the bullies, the terrorists that would oppose the values that | :54:22. | :54:28. | |
Britain stands for? I agree with the honourable lady, I do. But let us | :54:29. | :54:36. | |
leave aside arguments of conscience and compassion. Let us concentrate | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
upon our legal obligations. I say that to the honourable lady not | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
because I disavow or reduce the importance of the moral arguments, | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
but moral arguments do not always appeal in the same light to | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
everybody. The arguments of pull factors that are sometimes used, the | :54:55. | :55:02. | |
push and pull factors, surround this problem with what I quite understand | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
our difficult equations and judgments as to the practicalities | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
and complexities of whether we should take children or not take | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
children. But you know there are sometimes when you can surround the | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
problem with a web of complication. And there are some times when I | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
would prefer to be a fly than a spider. And the plight of a child is | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
one of them. When you have the plight of a child, it transcends | :55:31. | :55:37. | |
these kinds of complexities of pull factors and push factors. Nobody is | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
suggesting for a moment that we should take every single one of the | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
30,000 children a year who enter Greece and Italy, we are taking a | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
modest view. And all the Dubs amendment meant was that we should | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
take a modest view. And those of us on this side of the house who voted | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
for that amendment did believe that we would take a modest view but I do | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
not believe that we believed that it would be 350 only. So let me return | :56:06. | :56:13. | |
to the question of our obligations. It is not in the interests of our | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
reputation as a country to be seen to be a nation that is parsimonious | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
and mean-spirited in the fulfilment of what is an obligation. So we | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
should have in Greece and Italy now not this valiant single lady, Miss | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
Malahide, who seems to be doing tremendous work, we should have | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
dozens of Home Office officials actively looking and searching for | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
those children who it is our legal obligation to find and to process. I | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
give way to my right honourable friend. The dispiriting and a | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
pressing issue is that back on the 21st of April when the then Minister | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
for immigration explained to us that there would be teams supporting | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
vulnerable groups such as foldable children and those trained to tackle | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
people trafficking, this would ensure... Now with the situation | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
from the Red Cross that it is taking some ten months to progress a | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
child's case. It is a legal responsibility that it should be | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
about protecting the vulnerable and not getting them through to Turkey. | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
I agree with my honourable friend. It is our duty to process these | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
children. It is our Judy to deal with those children who have | :57:34. | :57:43. | |
connections... Our duty to be able to find these children. And I do not | :57:44. | :57:51. | |
accept for a moment that a single person dealing with this is | :57:52. | :57:53. | |
sufficient to make our obligation effective. So I agree with my | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
honourable friend. I agree that we should be doing much more in Greece | :58:00. | :58:07. | |
and Italy, not to take many thousands of children but simply to | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
interpret our legal Judy in the spirit and manner that this country | :58:12. | :58:18. | |
ought to be interpreting it, namely making it real, practical and | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
effective. It is the cruellest of Charente is to acknowledge an | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
obligation and not to carry out that obligation with a full heart and | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
with a full sense of responsibility. So I say to the Minister from this | :58:31. | :58:38. | |
side of the house, let him not think that all of us on this side of the | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
house, and I don't believe properly interpreted many of us on this side | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
of the house would take the approach of feeling that we should stand | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
aside and do nothing, for those children who are arriving in Greece | :58:51. | :58:59. | |
and Italy. I do not believe that that is our party or this side of | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
the house's averaged problem. I ask the Minister to do more for those | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
children in Greece and Italy, to make practical and effective the | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
international law obligations that we have, whether it be under Dubs or | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
whether it be under Dublin, we need to be seen to do more. The plight of | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
the child, wherever that child is, be it in Europe or the it in the | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
Middle East, is much more important both morally and legally than the | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
kinds of arguments that are sometimes deployed about pull | :59:30. | :59:35. | |
factors and push factors. Suffer the little children and for bid them not | :59:36. | :59:42. | |
to come unto me. APPLAUSE | :59:43. | :59:50. | |
You all want to get in, I can't have everybody clapping all we will not | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
get to the end Ericsson will be so many good speeches. Thank you Mr | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
Deputy Speaker. And let me first congratulate the members who managed | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
to secure this most appropriate rate. A very passionate speech from | :00:02. | :00:11. | |
the member for West Devon and previous speakers made. We reveal | :00:12. | :00:19. | |
who we truly are in the face of adversity as we are now facing the | :00:20. | :00:27. | |
worst refugee crisis since World War II, it is now time to show to | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
ourselves and to the world who we are. Are we going to show that the | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
UK is shameless, heartless and faceless? Are we going to show that | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
our previous commitments mean nothing to us? Yesterday three of my | :00:45. | :00:58. | |
constituents, aged ten, aged nine and aged nine, to attend a primary | :00:59. | :01:08. | |
school in my constituency, came to Parliament with a letter for the | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
Prime Minister about the Dubs children. They said," let us take | :01:13. | :01:22. | |
them in so they are not in danger. These children appealed to the | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
simple decency of humanity, that this Government appears to have | :01:28. | :01:37. | |
forgotten. If they can see how we should act, why can't the | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
Government? I call on that Government to reconsider their | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
decision to close the Dubs scheme at 350 children and to at least return | :01:49. | :01:56. | |
to the original commitment of 3000 children. The announcement that the | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
Dubs scheme would limit itself to the transfer of only 350 children is | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
in breach -- a breach of faith of this Government's commitment to | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
match the scale of the refugee crisis in Europe. Whilst the | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
Government have been dangerous in their bilateral financial | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
contributions to the crisis in Syria, they should not forget the | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
crisis in Europe. 95,000 unaccompanied, incredibly vulnerable | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
children are currently estimated to be stranded across Europe. Such a | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
betrayal of our commitment will undermine our relationship with | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
other European countries. Such a small-minded and selfish action | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
undermines the Government's promises that the UK will continue to be part | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
of a European and global community that seeks international solutions | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
to international problems, in which every country must play a role. I | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
would like to ask the Home Office what conversations they have had | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
with the French, Italian and Greek governments and how they have | :03:17. | :03:24. | |
reacted to the decision to take such a small number of children. We have | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
a commitment to our shared humanity and to the ideals of human rights to | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
do all in our power to help those who are faced with abuse and extreme | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
deprivation. We cannot turn our backs on those in need, claiming | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
that it is not our responsibility. We cannot go to our selfish | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
instincts, that we do not have enough to help, we cannot surrender | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
to fear by declaring that it is too difficult. A spokeswoman for the | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
campaign group has pointed out that the Government's claimed that local | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
councils are too stretched to accommodate more refugees is based | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
upon threadbare figures that are nine months out of date. The | :04:18. | :04:26. | |
Government claimed that the 217 councils responsible in the UK for | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
children cannot even handle two each. This is underestimating the | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
capabilities of those selfless men and women who devote their lives to | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
public service. My own counsel, Ealing, along with the council | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
leader of Hammersmith and Fulham are just a view of those who have | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
already called upon the Government to reconsider. Britain's proud | :04:50. | :05:08. | |
tradition of providing shelter to those who are most in need. It is | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
crucial that we do not think about this problem is simply numbers on a | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
page. Whilst 3000 might not look that different to 350, when written | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
down, we must remember that each number is a child that faces the | :05:23. | :05:31. | |
dangers of overcrowded, makeshift camps across Europe. Each number is | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
a child that faces the dangers of child prostitution rings, | :05:37. | :05:38. | |
exploitation by human traffickers, the threat of rape and abuse, | :05:39. | :05:46. | |
starvation and disease. It is deeply concerning that the Home Secretary | :05:47. | :05:47. | |
talks about pull factors. Incentivising children to come to | :05:48. | :06:00. | |
Europe. There is no evidence for this argument in the investigative | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
work carried out by numerous agencies and NGOs including Unicef, | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
save the children and citizens UK safe passage. In fact it is when | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
safe and legal routes to the UK are dropped that traffickers delete... | :06:20. | :06:32. | |
Instead, children are left with an awful choice between risking their | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
lives by attempting to jump aboard lorries like the 14-year-old boy who | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
was killed last year, or to rely upon human traffickers. By | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
restricting safe and legal routes the government encourages people | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
traffickers and the reports by save the children show the horrors of | :06:53. | :07:02. | |
these institutions, with children as young as 13 forced into prostitution | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
to earn their passage. In preparation for this debate, I spoke | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
with someone who was brought over on the transports in the late 1930s. He | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
impressed upon me the importance of thinking about the worth and | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
potential of every human life, and that every life wasted is a huge | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
loss to humanity. He stressed that the vast majority of children who | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
arrived in England were from disadvantaged background and arrived | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
in the UK with very little, and many were unable to speak English. He | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
asked us to look at what they have been able to achieve. Lord Dubs | :07:43. | :07:50. | |
himself is an example, but he also told me how he personally met two | :07:51. | :08:00. | |
Nobel Prize winners among the children who arrived, including | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
business owners and numerous doctors. It is crucial for the | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
government is to continue their commitment to the Dublin regulations | :08:10. | :08:11. | |
and I would like to ask the government had the intent to uphold | :08:12. | :08:19. | |
this and? -- how they intend to uphold this commitment. I apologise | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
for taking a little extra time, but in order to show to the world and to | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
ourselves that the UK is a caring and compassionate society that | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
values human life, we need to reopen the Dubs amendment and commit to | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
rescuing more refugees stranded in Italy and Greece. Thank you. There | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
have been some very passionate speeches and I am sure very | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
heartfelt views but I think we ought to look back at reality and exactly | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
what is happening. Some people just did not listen to what the Minister | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
had to say. They did not listen to the statistics you give us to say | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
who was being brought into this country. The numbers of people being | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
brought into this country. I have not been to Dunkirk or to Calais, I | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
had not been to Greece or Italy. I have not seen the refugees but I | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
have been to Jordan and I had been to Turkey. I have seen those camps | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
that those children and adults are living in. Nobody in their right | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
mind wants to be in a refugee camp. It is not somewhere any of us want | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
to go. It could be us at some point, we might need to do that but I hope | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
not. Any country in the world could find themselves in that situation. | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
Given the situation the Syrian people are in, which is desperate, | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
they are in a pretty safe place in those refugee camps. They are being | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
fed, they are being given a health service and the children are being | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
given an education. In fact in Jordan, but many people do not | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
realise is that the Jordanian government has said that any child | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
on Jordanian soil, whatever nationality, because they have | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
Palestinian refugees as well as others, will receive the same | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
education that their own children are receiving. This is not the case | :10:19. | :10:27. | |
for trafficked children, taken across the continent to come to | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
Britain. Because they have been trafficked they are out of education | :10:32. | :10:33. | |
and they do not have a health service. They should have been | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
settled in the refugee camps. Because they are getting a pretty | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
good deal there. The interesting thing is that they as Raff camp is | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
not fooled. There is plenty of space there. -- the Asfar camp. I mean | :10:48. | :10:58. | |
this very respectfully to my my honourable friend, I agree | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
completely with her but the problem is you are reacting too late. These | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
families had already made the journey to Greece and Italy and they | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
are there already. If we do not contribute to that, can she tell me | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
who will take responsibility for them? Well, my honourable friend | :11:12. | :11:19. | |
makes an interesting point but does she not recognise that France, Italy | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
and Greece are safe countries? They are not Nazi Germany, where Lord | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
Dubs came from. He escaped from being murdered. These children and | :11:32. | :11:39. | |
families are not under threat of murder, they are in safe countries | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
that the governments of those countries should be respecting and | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
dealing with, and there are all sorts of international rules to | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
oversee that. If I can go back to the Syrian refugee camps in Jordan, | :11:51. | :11:59. | |
the Rizwan camp there, the Asrat camp, and every building there has | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
been provided by IKEA. Nobody gives them credit for supporting so many | :12:05. | :12:12. | |
of these refugees, or all these solar panels, all of which have been | :12:13. | :12:20. | |
given by IKEA from the region to help these young people. But we are | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
providing a lot of the education. We are providing a lot of the health | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
service. We have provided the boreholes. I will not give way | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
because I do not have long. We have provided the boreholes to provide | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
safe water for these people who are there. They are safe. I believe that | :12:39. | :12:46. | |
we should be saying to people, stay there. Why would they want to come | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
here when they can speak their own language, and they do not need to | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
learn English? Why is it that these people are being pulled two Calais | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
and Dunkirk and other places, which they are? And it is all right saying | :13:00. | :13:06. | |
that they have come but they came recently. They were cleared in | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
France, as the member opposite said. He was an agreement out there with | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
those refugees were sorted out. More have come since then. Many more have | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
come. I do not believe that you can say there is no pull factor. I'm | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
sorry I will not give way because I have not to speak. I believe we | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
should be supporting those camps and Britain has done its bit. ?2.3 | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
billion is not insignificant. I think we should be proud of the | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
money that we put in there. I think we should be proud that we have | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
protected those people. There is on rule of law in those camps. It is | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
not perfect but it is not perfect here either. We do need to provide | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
as much as we can to keep the people in the region. Most Syrians want to | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
go home once it is safe to do so. If they come here, they will not be | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
able to go home as easily, so I would like to say that although I | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
understand the sentiments of what people are saying, we should stop | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
being so sentimental and we should actually be looking at what the best | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
thing to do for these families is, which is to keep them in the region. | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
And that is what this government is doing. I am quite shocked to hear | :14:30. | :14:40. | |
the last comments about sentimentality. I will start as King | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
the House a very simple question. What must it be like to be a child | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
refugee? To deal with sentimentality, let's try that. Can | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
any of us actually imagine the mental and physical trauma of | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
escaping your home country under fear of persecution. Departure from | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
the home is in voluntary and abrupt. It involves crossing deserts, | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
mountains and seas. It can involve being confronted with additional | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
conflict over the journey. Going without basics like food, water and | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
shelter. Escaping by sea brings additional hardships like the loss | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
of other partnerships, witnessing loved ones drown, fear. -- the loss | :15:21. | :15:29. | |
of other passengers. When they reach their final destination, the risks | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
continued and in many places worsen. Vulnerable children are at the | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
greatest risk of trafficking. Neglect, sexual abuse and | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
exportation. I have heard about refugee camps being quite adequate, | :15:42. | :15:52. | |
but in the informal refugee camps, 90% of people do not have an | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
adequate place to sleep, like a tent, and there is little in the way | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
of washing facilities. Many find themselves in detention centres, | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
where they live and sleep in crowded, dirty, rat infested cells, | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
often without mattresses, deprived of basic sanitation, hygiene and | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
privacy. It has been reported that some boys are even turning to | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
prostitution to keep themselves alive. If I am sentimental for | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
bringing this up, then I am very proud to be so because these are the | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
basic facts of what is going on in some of the worst refugee centres. | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
And if we're talking about Greece, and them being rat infested with no | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
mattresses, whose fault is that? That is Greece's fault and they | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
should be helping those children. The simple fact of the matter, the | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
world is a small place and we all belong in it. It is one human being. | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
We need to recognise that we need to support partners abroad. Can I make | :16:53. | :17:03. | |
it clear that we have spent ?28 million in Greece to support | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
migrants and refugees through partners like the UNHCR and the | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
international organisation for migration, and the Red Cross. This | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
support has reached 250,000 people in Greece. And I thank the Minister | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
for raising that point. I think that figure is something to be saluted. | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
It is very important but that is not what we are discussing today. We are | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
discussing refugees coming to this country. According to Unicef, over | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
30,000 unaccompanied children fleeing war and persecution game by | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
sea to greet and Italy last year. Only eight were transferred to the | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
UK where they had family links. Only eight. Our country is simply failing | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
to play a part in caring for the children. They are turning -- | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
returning to the Dubs amendment, last year we were told by David | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
Cameron that a specified number of vulnerable refugee children would be | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
given a home here as part of the Dubs amendment. Lord Dubs, who as we | :17:59. | :18:07. | |
know was himself rescued from Nazi persecution and brought to the UK in | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
1939, ... I'm happy to give way. I thank my my honourable friend for | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
giving away and he has given way very generously compared to the | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
previous speaker. Does he agree that the refusal of the government to | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
live up to what people expected the Dubs amendment to do is not only a | :18:30. | :18:31. | |
betrayal of the thousands of children who are unable to come here | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
but also of the many hundreds of thousands of our own constituents | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
who wrote to us, who campaigned, who signed a petition and expected the | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
government to live up to the commitment they were campaigning | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
for? They never matters made a powerful point and I agree with him | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
completely. Some of the e-mails I had leading up to the debates today | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
were saying at the very same thing. Given the situation, it emerges that | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
we are only taking 350 children including 200 from Calais. We were | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
told today by the Minister that the door is still open. Frankly, the | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
admission is that it has been slammed shut. Even the timing of | :19:14. | :19:22. | |
ditching the dubs scheme was appalling. The scheme was dismissed | :19:23. | :19:31. | |
on the eve of the last parliamentary recess, which was condemned by Lord | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
Dubs, who said that the news was buried while most eyes were focused | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
on the Brexit debacle. In a statement, the Home Secretary | :19:40. | :19:41. | |
claimed that the scheme created a pull factor for unaccompanied | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
children which has been touched on several times today, increasing | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
their risk of falling into the hand of traffickers. She said, we do not | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
want to incentivise journeys to Europe. Why would you say that? Why | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
on earth would you be thinking that we only have pull factor is, when we | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
have discussed the push factors? The real message that my constituents | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
are getting is that this is not in my backyard. In actual fact, there | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
is no evidence for this to be the case. Relocation services provide | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
safe and legal groups to the UK for those seeking asylum and in actual | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
fact they disrupt the people traffickers who seek to profit from | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
smuggling desperate people across borders. I would urge the Minister | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
to not only allow the Dubs scheme to continue so the UK receives at least | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
3000 unaccompanied refugees but also to include the total number of | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
refugees under the Syrian Vulnerable Persons Scheme. Let me remind this | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
House that Scotland is not fooled. The Scottish Government has always | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
said that it is willing to take its fair share of refugees and has | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
called on the UK Government time and time again to increase its efforts | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
to respond to this humanitarian crisis. This stands is cross-party | :20:55. | :20:56. | |
and has wide public support. The people of this country believe | :20:57. | :21:12. | |
we can do more and clearly should be doing more to help these desperate, | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
unaccompanied children. Pointing out the sample of my own constituency, | :21:18. | :21:26. | |
Argyll Bute have settled dozens of Syrian refugees and their families | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
very successfully. They are among many others stand ready to do more. | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
I thank my honourable friend and agree. Another thing that may not be | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
known about Scotland, we were told about as being a mongrel nation, | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
people made up from all over the world and I completely share your | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
point, and it actually touches on my next point which is public figures | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
signing an open letter to the Prime Minister, branding the decision on | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
the Dubs scheme, and I quote, the early shameful and human rights | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
charities have been united in their condemnation. This decision to | :22:06. | :22:13. | |
reduce access to unaccompanied refugee children, they have argued | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
they don't have the money, but the real reason is the Government had | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
not consulted councils broadly about the scheme in the first place. In | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
London alone at least eight councillors signed an open letter | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
urging Theresa May to consider the decision to take this lifeline away | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
from refugees. Councils across the country are ready to step up. Order. | :22:36. | :22:43. | |
Order. We will take the intervention but can I very gently say to the | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
minister, he spoke earlier, which is not the norm in these debates and | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
ordinarily to be deprecated, this may be an exception, he spoke at | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
considerable length, possibly to the benefit of the house, the honourable | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
gentleman should not now constantly intervene. This is a debate for | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
backbench members and that must be understood. While Theresa May is | :23:05. | :23:13. | |
closing the door to unaccompanied refugee children, she is still | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
opening the door to Donald Trump. The potential visit to the UK by | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
President Trump is estimated to cost over ?10 million. The most expensive | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
state visit in history. If there is a concern about local authority | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
funding, there is part of the solution. Cancel the exorbitant, | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
unwanted and undeserved presidential state visit and give the money to | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
local authorities. This will send a message to everyone that refugees | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
are welcome in our country regardless of where or what their | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
background is. This is a choice. Which side of history does the Prime | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
Minister wished to be an. Does she wish to Warmley welcome refugees to | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
the country or does she, like Trump, one to turn her back on those | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
fleeing persecution? In his first week as president, he issued a ban | :24:03. | :24:16. | |
on refugees into the US. Who do unaccompanied children in Greece and | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
Italy turn to? The mental and physical health of those children is | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
deteriorating and they are despondent and broken. This will | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
create a vacuum that will be filled by exploitation and people | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
smugglers, the only option the children now have. These children | :24:32. | :24:40. | |
are treated like a statistic. If the Government turned its back, it is | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
partly responsible when these children go missing. What must it | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
like to be a child refugee? None of us in this chamber can come close to | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
imagining the fear, terror, on ability, loneliness. I therefore | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
urge the Government to continue the Dubs scheme and to do the right | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
thing and look to increase the number of refugees overall. To do | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
otherwise is shameful and will not be forgotten. Nicky Morgan. Thank | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
you Romanchuk did Mr Speaker to calling me to speak in this | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
important debate. I want to congratulate the honourable | :25:20. | :25:21. | |
gentleman on his speed but also pay particular tribute to the honourable | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
member forward roll south for her speech and also to my colleague and | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
honourable friend the member for South Cambridgeshire for her work on | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
this and her fearless attitude towards making sure that ministers | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
are left in no doubt about the strength of her feelings on this. I | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
also want to pay tribute to my honourable friend, the member for | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
Torrejon West Devon who I thought spoke incredibly powerfully in this | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
debate. Mr Speaker, I think, as we've already heard, more than | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
30,000 unaccompanied children have arrived by the in Greece and Italy | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
in 2016 but only eight of them were transferred to the UK for family | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
reunification. I am told that none were transferred under the Dubs | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
scheme. As the minister set out, the Government has been generous in | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
supporting refugees and those seeking asylum from overseas, but | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
the fact that his speech was a series of numbers skewed everything | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
else. I think it tends to suggest why there is confusion and concern | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
over this debate. There are lots of schemes, there are lots of numbers | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
and I think the Government could help by being much clearer about how | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
many people are coming here to the UK under which scheme and perhaps | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
this is not the right place, the chamber, but perhaps it is something | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
that ministers can write to colleagues about on all sides of the | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
house and continue to keep us updated on. One of the examples of | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
that confusion is the numbers of members of staff from the Home | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
Office that are in Greece and Italy. If you give them one number in | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
meetings, another number has been given today and I think it would be | :27:02. | :27:03. | |
helpful if the house was clearer about the numbers involved. The | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
honourable member my noble friend talked about the responsibilities of | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
Greece and Italy. But the point is that there are hundreds of children | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
who have a legal right to be in the UK who have had to continue their | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
journey alone as a result of experience in further trauma | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
including trafficking, sexual exploitation, forced labour and | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
freezing and unsanitary conditions, because of the bureaucratic and long | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
waiting times, often over a year, that they have experienced. But as | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
we've also heard, in Calais, the UK did manage to deal with large | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
numbers of children in a short period of time. That shows that when | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
the political will is there, it is possible to make the systems work. I | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
think the Minister has also said and I think it would again be helpful if | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
we were clearer and minder standing is that the Dubs scheme has not been | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
terminated but that the number has been set for this year. If that is | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
the case and the Dubs scheme is going to continue, that is something | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
to be welcomed but again something that should be clarified, not just | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
for the member of -- benefit of members here but for those outside | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
this house who showed great interest, compassion, concern and | :28:19. | :28:20. | |
care for what is happening to the Dubs scheme. I think also we would | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
like to call for the Government to consult on local authorities for | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
up-to-date numbers on capacity for transfers and to agree on going | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
capacity for looking after unaccompanied children and the | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
Government should do it every financial year rather than just as a | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
one-off. Thank you, I'm listening very carefully to the honourable | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
lady. She does agree with me that the money follows the child, so the | :28:49. | :28:57. | |
local authority gets paid for it? I didn't think that came across with | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
the gentleman who spoke for the Scottish National Party. My | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
honourable friend is right to say that the money does follow the | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
child, as I understand it, there is money there. We know that local | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
authorities are under financial pressure but there is a significant | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
amount of money that follows each child, so local authorities should | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
have the resources. What I was going on since to say it that it would be | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
helped lift the Government would publish the numbers of children each | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
local authority has already agreed to accept so that members of | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
Parliament, communities and NGOs and other charities can work with those | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
authorities to see if the number of places can be increased. I would | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
urge the Minister to use members of Parliament with an interest in this. | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
I know from my time in Government that sometimes officials are | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
reluctant to involve members of Parliament as constituent members of | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
Parliament but we are able to ask the questions of local councillors, | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
of local authorities, I'm sorry the Minister is not listening at the | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
moment but perhaps he will cut the transcript instead and really use | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
members of Parliament to interrogate their local authorities about the | :30:04. | :30:05. | |
capacity they are offered, whether they can offer more and what more we | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
can do to get messages back to the Home Office. If there are queries | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
and questions and a reluctance on the part of local authorities to get | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
involved in the schemes. I want to pay particular tribute to the | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
charity in my constituency who have long worked with unaccompanied | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
asylum seeking children and refugees and I really hope that their ex-BT | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
's and I'm sure there are many other charities like them across the | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
country, is being used in these situations. But I fear that that is | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
not the case and again it is up to minister to challenge the Department | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
to say there are others in this country with expertise, let's use | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
them to respond to those particular crisis and their need. It was | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
mentioned again by honourable members that there are individuals | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
in our constituencies who wanted to step forward to help and see more | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
being done to make use of their desire to help. I also want to very | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
quickly... Yes, of course I will. To raise again the issue of money | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
following the placement, evidence suggests that the amount of money | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
that follows a child is around 50%, so it's not true to say that it | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
fully reimburses counsel for the investments they make. I den think I | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
said it fully reimbursed them but there is money following the child. | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
I have to say I would argue, I have had some pretty strenuous arguments | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
with local authorities both at our local member of Parliament and as a | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
minister and sometimes interpretation of whether there is | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
sufficient money can be variant. But let's have that debate and work out | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
what the numbers should be, let's not just accept what local | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
authorities say. Mr Speaker, I just want to move on to what we can do to | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
help Greece and Italy deal with the issue of unaccompanied children on | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
their shores. I think there's more we can do or the Government can do | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
to fulfil the spirit and letter of the Dubs Amendment and we need to | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
work with the other at ease in Greece and Italy to set out clearly | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
the Dubs scheme, the criteria, the numbers that need to be clarified so | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
that authorities in those countries know exactly what the UK is able to | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
offer and we have the people on the ground to do so. Mr Speaker, there | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
is a danger in this debate and I think the honourable member for | :32:26. | :32:27. | |
Ealing Southall talked about this when he said talking about numbers, | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
but we're actually talking about people, we're talking about young | :32:33. | :32:34. | |
people who have their futures ahead of them. I think a number talked | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
about this being a smaller world, which is a challenge we know from | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
many of our constituents, but there are people with stories at the heart | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
of this. Firstly, Unicef contacted me today to give me an example of a | :32:48. | :32:55. | |
16-year-old Afghan child with a degenerative bone condition who | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
could potentially be eligible for the Dubs scheme. Doctors in Greece | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
advised that he needs urgent treatment although the specialist | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
treatment cannot be given until he has finished growing in Greece, but | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
could be given with a paediatric doctor here in the UK. This | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
highlights the point of the Dubs Amendment, helping extremely | :33:17. | :33:28. | |
vulnerable children. Unicef are working with a boy who was forced to | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
flee Afghanistan when his parents were killed by the Taliban for being | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
numbers of an ethnic group. Brother has since passed away on the | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
journey. I'm going to perhaps disagree with the member for West | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
Devon on this because I do think there is scope in this debate to | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
think about our moral obligations and our compassion. I know as a | :33:50. | :34:00. | |
parent, we said let's hope the situation we are fleeing from never | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
arises here. Of course we hope that but we have to think it might and as | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
a parent I would hope my child is offered safety and that is what this | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
is about. Thank you. Thank you for securing this very timely debate. Mr | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
Speaker, today not only do I speak from a position of experience, | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
having fostered a young Afghan refugee and also having provided | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
support and lodgings for a number of refugees without parents, I speak as | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
a member of the opposition and a member of the home affairs Select | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
Committee, which only yesterday took evidence from NGOs and senior | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
leaders working in this area. The presented was shocking and the work | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
of the leader for Hammersmith and Fulham Council, Councillor Stephen | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
Collins, stuck with me. He described to us his understanding of refugee | :34:53. | :34:54. | |
camps in Europe. He described them as they colour -- the closest thing | :34:55. | :35:02. | |
to hell for a child. Another young man told me many stories to try to | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
get me to understand the level of desperation they experienced. I do | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
not believe we can comprehend what that level of desperation must feel | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
like. So for me, the way to try and understand this was to imagine what | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
it must be like to be in the closest thing to hell what it must be like | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
to be alone, to be away from everything you've ever known, to | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
wonder if your family are still alive, to wonder about the things | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
you've left behind. And still to be so sure whether there is a light at | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
the end of this tunnel. -- so unsure whether there is a light at the end | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
of the tunnel. How must those children feel to flee one hell for | :35:44. | :35:52. | |
another, to experience potential rape, abuse and exploitation. All | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
this against a backdrop of a journey that has witnessed many lose their | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
lives before you. This is the reality, Mr Speaker. This is about | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
people. Mr Speaker, I stand here today as an extremely blessed | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
individual, knowing my children are safe, save from bombs, safe from | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
being shot at, safe from being raped, safe from being exploited and | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
trafficked. But sadly this is not the reality for all. So what has the | :36:19. | :36:25. | |
response from a country like ours, Great Britain, been to this crisis? | :36:26. | :36:33. | |
Our Government passing the Dubs Amendment, it is not based on -- it | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
is based on morality. We also heard the French agencies | :36:40. | :39:50. | |
reporting that they work from about 7900 people transferred, the point | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
for Jordan was about 2000. We heard from others and I will talk to you | :39:57. | :40:08. | |
about that... Happy to give way. I thank the honourable lady for giving | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
way and she is making a very powerful speech. Does she agree with | :40:12. | :40:20. | |
me that the language from many in the Government is completely wrong? | :40:21. | :40:30. | |
This is an opportunity to take refugees, child refugees and develop | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
them for the rest of the world. Thank you for that comment and I | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
absolutely agree. The deputy executive director of Unicef had | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
this to say when we were talking about the business model of | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
trafficking. There is one way to destroy the business model and that | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
is to provide safe and legal routes to children. They turn to people | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
traffickers when they have no other option. There are many ways to | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
prevent children being vulnerable to paid smugglers of people | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
trafficking, when smuggling becomes unaffordable from countries of | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
origin, which is to do with investing our developer assistance | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
money to prevent children from being in that position in the first place. | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
Once children have arrived in Europe we know they would only turn to | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
traffickers when there is no system working for them and when they have | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
lost faith and hope and been let down and not able to trust the | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
advice they are getting and do not have any advice whatsoever. The | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
cancellation of the Dubs scheme is a good win for the people traffickers, | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
there is money to be made because children will try to get to their | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
families or to places of safety in one way or another. Mr Speaker, to | :41:50. | :41:56. | |
me what this comes down to is we have a choice. We have a choice, we | :41:57. | :42:04. | |
have a choice to do something or to do nothing. We will never grasp or | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
comprehend the lack of choices that these children have. And what I will | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
say to discover governor is this. Commit, commit to what we actually | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
pass in this house. Don't just pay lip service, don't just change | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
direction and say this rogue run will continue as it is, because | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
turning our backs on the 90% of children that we committed to help | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
is beyond a disgrace. What we have done was not enough then, is not | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
enough now, and we must do more. Thank you. Can I ask everybody to | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
try to help each other? If people can stick to seven minutes, that's | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
great, but it is not an obligation at this stage, there is no fixed | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
limit, and I can understand the member who is about to speak and has | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
had no notice may feel aggrieved and he must make his own judgment and | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
will not be stopped -- must not be stopped. Thank you, Mr Speaker, I | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
shall keep this to only an hour! LAUGHTER | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
No, I appreciate you putting a time limit on it and I congratulate the | :43:10. | :43:24. | |
honourable member for this debate. Trafficking is the area I have most | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
expertise and would like to touch on from perhaps a different angle. | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
There was some comment earlier on about not enough money being given | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
to councils for unaccompanied children. I think the figures are | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
this year that ?41,610 is given from central Government to local governor | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
for an unaccompanied child and I think that has gone up by 20% or 30% | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
in the last year. I don't think it's fair to say the problem, if there is | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
one, relates to money. Can I say at the outset, Mr Speaker, and I do not | :43:55. | :44:03. | |
in any way suggest that anybody who doesn't agree with my views doesn't | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
care for the children come but I've been looking at this problem of | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
vulnerable children who have been trafficked since 2005. When we had | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
Anthony Steen in this house, he used to talk endlessly about human | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
trafficking when nobody would even accept that it existed. And I had | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
the great honour to follow him as chairman of the all-party group in | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
2005. And I have to say that we lag behind looking after and dealing | :44:35. | :44:45. | |
with human trafficking, up until the coalition Government. I would say | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
one of his greatest legacies is what he did for human trafficking and the | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
setting up of the Modern Slavery Act. The fact that we now have an | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
independent commissioner who is there to challenge what the | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
Government does. I have to say the Home Secretary at the time used to | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
annoy me enormously because she would not get on and do what she | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
wanted -- what we wanted. But what she did, she checked it all out, she | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
worked it all out and then she did it to the latter. And now the Prime | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
Minister seems to be doing that in another field that I would like to | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
press on with. But the issue have is an exceptionally, gated. Human | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
traffickers are the most evil people in the world. -- exceptionally | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
complicated. They do not care for one minute about vulnerable | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
children, they do not care about human life. They are quite happy to | :45:41. | :45:48. | |
cut the finger off a child who is relative, the older child, the | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
mother in fact is in this country being trafficked. They have no | :45:52. | :46:01. | |
hesitation in executing victims in front of others to terrify them. But | :46:02. | :46:09. | |
they worked out they can make far more money rather than gun-running | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
from human trafficking. I've always taken the view that the best way to | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
deal with this is to stop the trafficking rather than look after | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
the victims afterwards. And we have worked across Europe to do this. I | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
have travelled throughout Europe and across parts of the world to see how | :46:30. | :46:36. | |
the best ways of dealing with this. And one of the countries that | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
actually led before we lead on human trafficking was in fact Italy. So we | :46:41. | :46:48. | |
have to say to ourselves, how do you stop these traffickers? Traffickers | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
only operate because there is a demand. I think the previous Prime | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
Minister was absolutely right when he said we look after vulnerable | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
people close in the region to where they come from. And I think the | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
figure is something like, for every 3000 unaccompanied children we could | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
look after here, the equivalent money could look after 800,000. | :47:17. | :47:24. | |
We've not got to worry about... We've got to worry about the | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
numbers, it's incredible. If you look after them in the region, there | :47:29. | :47:35. | |
is no need to be trafficked. The ardent, is there a safe route? There | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
is a safe route. We're taking 20,000 or more... And that is the way to do | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
it. Now, I can understand the feeling about unaccompanied children | :47:47. | :47:56. | |
in Europe. The problem is, they are in safe countries. Greece, Italy and | :47:57. | :48:04. | |
France are completely safe... I'm sorry, because of Mr Speaker, I | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
really apologise... This is an issue we should be debating all day. But I | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
just want to make the point, that is where the help should be, and we are | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
putting money into other European countries should be putting money in | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
and we should have first class and still it is in Italy and Greece. And | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
I know in Italy they know how to do it, because they have done it. | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
I just want to make very briefly in conclusion the one area that worries | :48:31. | :48:38. | |
me enormously. And that was mentioned by the Minister in his | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
opening remarks. It is children that we bring over here, thinking that | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
they have a relative. They bring them over, they go to these people. | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
They are not relatives, they are part of the trafficking gangs. And | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
if they then go into prostitution, or they go into servitude, we have | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
to deal with that. And the one thing I would ask the Minister to go away | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
and check up on and perhaps let the House no Adelaide to stage is how | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
many of those children that we have admitted, how many of them are still | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
safe? So will let the House no at a later stage. Let's find out that | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
figure before we bang on about ringing more children in. Thank you, | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
it is a pleasure to follow the member for Wellingborough because I | :49:28. | :49:29. | |
disagree with him passionately on his approach to this particular | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
amendment. But I respected as commitment to tackling trafficking. | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
And I think that echoes what my colleagues from Wirral South said. | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
This is not a partisan issue. There are members that feel strongly about | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
this issue on all sides of the House. I feel strongly because, and | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
I want to quote the words of the Halton, a well-known refugee | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
advocate in America. He said that refugees in body misery and | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
suffering and force us to confront herbal chaos and evil. In the time | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
allocated to me, I want to argue that they force us to confront | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
something about ourselves and our nationhood. That is why I disagree | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
with the approach advocated by the member for Wellingborough. In | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
particular, I want to talk about what has happened to the Dubbs | :50:15. | :50:24. | |
scheme says about us as a country. The member for Derbyshire talked | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
about having no experience of visiting the European refugee camps. | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
I spent a bit of time in Calais last summer. I have not been to Greece or | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
Italy, I do not know what the Minister has done in terms of | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
visits. We know that many refugees have come to Europe, and we know | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
that there are 2500 children in Greece, 1000 of them are sleeping | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
rough. We know there are widespread reports that the poor quality and | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
conditions of the children and their families are living in, and just how | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
few have been transferred here to the UK, even though they have family | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
links here. The same is also true in Italy, where thousands of children | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
are passing through the camps, and there are widespread reports of | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
human rights abuses of those children in those camps, and yet | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
again, just three have been reunited with family here. And I know this | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
member talks about Greece and Italy and indeed France. I don't think we | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
should forget the children who are travelling through Europe. | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
Fundamentally, the Dubbs scheme was about children who are in Europe. In | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
particular, what our responsibility as part of Europe, as part of the | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
modern world, would be to those children alongside our European | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
counterparts. This is a debate, we all taking part in it will probably | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
get abuse on Twitter and Facebook. Sometimes we do have to advocate | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
what may seem like an unpopular opinion. I am saddened that it is an | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
unpopular opinion in this country that we should do our bit. But that | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
is the debate that we are having today. When our politics might feel | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
so futile, fundamentally children should not suffer. I agree with the | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
member for West Devon about that. The Dubbs amendment when we passed | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
it was the best of this House. It was the best of that agreement that | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
no matter how unpopular the issue might seem to be on social media, in | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
our hearts and in our heads we knew it was the right thing to do. That | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
is why closing it prematurely is the wrong thing to do. It is the wrong | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
thing to do because there is no evidence base that closing it | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
prematurely will do justice to those children and their needs. There is | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
no evidence base about Bush or indeed pull factors in this process. | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
There is only supposition. But we all know we are not talking about a | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
migrant crisis, we are talking about a refugee crisis, it is back because | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
people are fleeing persecution in this world, 60 million of them, and | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
we should call it a refugee crisis, not pretending it is the same as | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
people coming here wanting to work. Above all, we should ask ourselves | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
why when in committee this Government wrote down proposals to | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
treat these jobs and by the UN Convention on the rights of the | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
child, closing the Dubbs scheme made us take us forward in our moral | :53:16. | :53:18. | |
purpose rather than backwards, it did not. The member for Mid | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
Derbyshire talks about other countries and their | :53:23. | :53:24. | |
responsibilities, she is right, I agree with her. France, Germany, | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
Italy should all be doing more. Because one country is not doing | :53:29. | :53:31. | |
enough to does not absolve us are doing the bit that we could do, that | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
is the problem. How can we looked Turkey in the eye when they are | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
taking 2.8 million Syrian refugees, and yet only 3000 have come to | :53:41. | :53:47. | |
Europe in the last year alone. Above all, the promise of Dubbs is what we | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
should speak up for. Because we all over children got on buses to go to | :53:52. | :53:53. | |
centres on a promise and a pledge from the British authorities to | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
treat them barely. Not to then find two days later sneaked out a Home | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
Office guidelines saying that some of them would not even be considered | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
at all because of their nationality, not because of their needs. To see | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
them languishing in Dunkirk because they have lost all hope, that is not | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
British. That is not a popular opinion that we should uphold. So | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
why will join with other members of this House in tabling amendments to | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
the children and social work bill to try and reopen the scheme, to try to | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
hold this Government to account to what we promised we would do one | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
year ago. To not let the Minister get away with claiming that it was | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
in the small print that we would leave these children languishing in | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
the mud, that we would abandon children in Italy and in Greece. To | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
not listen to the French authorities when they say, no, we think this | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
scheme should continue, or indeed the UK is trafficking commissioner, | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
who confirmed that he knows of cases that the Dubbs case Amendment has | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
helped. Children who were being exploited to our now safe. Because | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
we cannot be confident that there are not more of those children. Just | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
as we cannot be confident there a lot more local authorities who will | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
step up to the plate. Indeed, when I spoke to my own local authority | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
today, I was proud of the work that they are doing to take refugees and | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
their commitment to work with other local authorities. Minister, we have | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
to confront the fact that our nation has to do its bit alongside other | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
European nations. And we can either be followers will lead us in that | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
process. Now, whatever the membership -- the member for Mid | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
Derbyshire has to tell herself to sleep at night, let us not decry | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
these children but stand up for them. That is what will keep them | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
safe and do justice to this House and this country. Heidi Alexander I | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
think you, Mr Speaker. I would like if I made you take us back. In April | :55:43. | :55:50. | |
last year, in response to the national outcry following the | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
dreadful and unforgettable image of poor little Aylan Kurdi washed up so | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
limply on the beach, this Government made a commitment in legislation to | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
help some of the thousands of unaccompanied children who had | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
escaped persecution and water and made it European shores. The Dubbs | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
legislation was a complimentary but critically unique part of our | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
response to the humanitarian crisis, that was sweeping across Europe. As | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
a continent, we must acknowledge that we did not responds swiftly | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
enough to this mass migration. Millions of people made perilous | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
journeys, but it means that they are here now. I remember visiting the | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
Greek island of Lesbos in January with Mike honourable friend for | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
Eastbourne last year. And weeping with disbelief at the hundreds and | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
hundreds of abandoned life jackets. Yours for 20 euros. Courtesy of your | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
friendly local traffic. Fakes, of course. I remember na vely | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
commenting that some of them were branded, at least they were real. | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
Oh, no, they are still fake. They just offer premium because they look | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
more authentic. What kind of parallel universe had I landed in? | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
At that time, anywhere between 3000 and 9000 of the refugees were | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
arriving daily in Greece, still financially on its knees, it was in | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
chaos. Despite the overwhelming challenge, the Greek people could | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
not have been more hospitable. Local restauranteurs delivering food to | :57:20. | :57:21. | |
the queues of very cold but patient refugees. I'll never forget the | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
sight of a young mother, using a hand to sweep of the dirt off her | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
blanket but her family were sitting on. Just a few carrier bags and her | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
blanket, that was all she had in the world, but it was her home and she | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
was keeping it clean. A woman and her baby, a little pink lipstick on | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
her lips, dirty face and dirty clothes but she was still very | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
proudly still a woman. And although I sought similar images to Calais in | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
the spring and summer, I'm ashamed to say that because of the euphoria | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
of refugees finally being transferred to save centres, those | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
images for me had started to fade, and I'm ashamed. The media has been | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
very quick to replace those images with all things Brexit and Trump. | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
When I look back at the kick is a bright day of camp demolition | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
approached, our Government rose abruptly. And worked hand-in-hand | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
with the French authorities to identify and processed at speed | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
children with family reunification right or those who might be suitable | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
for Dubbs. Mistakes were made, and it is undeniable that some of the | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
age assessments were wrong. But that is a theatre of the Russian and | :58:32. | :58:34. | |
urgency of the situation, not a reason to change our policy -- that | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
is a symptom of the rush and urgency. We took 200 Dubbs children | :58:38. | :58:44. | |
from France. A great start. Why oh why are we here today to debate the | :58:45. | :58:52. | |
Government's decision. I am so proud of the 2.3 billion commitment to aid | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
in the region and the 23,000 refugees we have welcomed from their | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
too. But the glow of pride in those other commitments should not as all | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
so brightly that it disguises the separate but very real commitment we | :59:06. | :59:11. | |
made in Dubbs. Let's not be blinded. Dubbs was the final jigsaw piece in | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
refugee response, offering sanctuary to children who had lost everything | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
and were already in Europe. We were sensible, we wisely set a cut-off | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
date so the offer would only extend to those who had come before the | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
turkey- EU deal in March. And we all agreed that this was critical to | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
ensure a swell of new did not come. Crude though it was, the Turkey deal | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
worked and floated a Greek islands reduced significantly. But Greece | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
could not and still cannot cope with the level of those who had already | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
arrived. Dubbs recognised this, and enshrined in law a promise to ease | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
the burden on and sanctuary to children who are born rebel. Those | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
children are no less honourable now, so why are we turning our backs on | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
them? Ministers will say they are worried about the poll factor. | :00:00. | :00:04. | |
Firstly, we have this debate when we debated Dubbs last year, and we | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
accept the evidence of the NGOs and their expertise that this would not | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
exacerbate a poll. Clearly, the opposite is true. Having finally | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
encouraged children to trust volunteers and authorities and coax | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
them on those coaches to go to the centres in Calais, we now propose to | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
whip the system away from them. When you cannot trust western governments | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
whose welcoming arms you have sought, is it any surprise that the | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
smiling face of the traffic is the only place left to turn? I believe | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
opening the Dubbs scheme and then shutting it so rapidly will actually | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
cause more harm, and a greater pull through southern Europe towards | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
Calais and then to our shores. In Dunkirk on Monday this week, the | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
member for Pontefract and Castleford and I heard first-hand from | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
youngsters who had absconded from the safety of those regional centres | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
because they heard about the imminent closure of the scheme. | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
Desperation clouds judgment and makes for poor choices. Choices that | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
leads straight into the hands of traffickers and prostitution. | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
Closing Dubbs so abruptly will give the traffic is the greatest | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
promotional opportunity they could ever ask for. We have never invested | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
fully in a structured approach to Dublin processing in Europe, with | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
scant Home Office personnel available in France, and only one | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
single person in Greece and another in Italy. Refugees showed us their | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
paperwork on Monday. Nothing at all in writing from the Home Office is | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
given to them. Basic Asylum rights information is provided in French, | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
despite the very first item in the document saying that that person | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
cannot speak French. We can and we must do better than this. Putting | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
Dubbs to one side, Dublin legislation is a proactive duty | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
already incumbent upon us to assist with family reunification. I am | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
pleased the Government has recently agreed to read but the case work of | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
children in France who were turned down on the first attempt. -- review | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
the case work. We need to hear about an improved process with dedicated | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
Home Office staff, translators and the commissioning organisations like | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
safe passage and the Red Cross who know what they are doing. So far it | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
has taken, as we have heard, on average ten months to transfer just | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
nine children from Greece and two from Italy, and I'm ashamed to say | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
not a single one under Dubbs. My visit to Dunkirk on Monday, as I | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
told the House, so depressed me. It was a horrid repetition of | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
everything I had seen in Calais in the summer. I don't want us to feed | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
that vicious cycle. I feel it is sensible to restrict our activities | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
in France to establishing a high performing Dublin system. 30,000 | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
unaccompanied children arrived in Greece and Italy last year. 1000 of | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
them went in shelters, and the same number sleep on the streets, plus | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
thousands more in Italy. Pommy, it is Greece and Italy where we should | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
focus our dubs attention -- for me. I want to focus on the capacity of | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
local authorities, that is the main basis for the Government's argument. | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
They say they consulted and local authorities can only take 150 more. | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
Even as I was writing this speech last night, I had a text message | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
from an old St Albans councillor friend, texted been to say that his | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
council had just backed a motion to uphold the Dubbs Amendment. All | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
across the country, have you noticed, councils are stepping | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
forward to say that they can do more. Councillor David Somers of the | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
Local Government Association told the Home Affairs Select Committee | :03:38. | :03:39. | |
just yesterday that only 20 councils across the UK have met their 0.07% | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
target. Lewisham has offered 23 places, but so far only been sent | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
one child. Birmingham could take 79 more, Bristol ten more, my own | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
Cambridge, currently at 61, hopes to reach its full quote of 93. Hammers | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
with an full-on, after visiting the Calais camp at their offer to the | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
Home Office for an additional 15 beyond their commitment -- | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
Hammersmith and Fulham. They have 13 spaces filled have been asking the | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
Home Office repeatedly for more, but have experienced resistance from | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
Home Office officials. This evidence suggests a lack of capacity has not | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
been proven. As we know, it will be challenged in the courts. Evidence I | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
have taken from the LGA suggests that councils were written to once. | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
All councils, regardless of whether they were district, unity or county, | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
there have been no follow-up. Leadership is needed like never | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
before. What kind of country we? What kind of Government we? The | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
country I know and love is outward looking, it is proud and welcoming, | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
and above all it is sharing. We have talked a lot recently about being a | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
friend to Europe post-Brexit. I'll tell you what, actions speak louder | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
than words. Let's step up, by that partner, that our European | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
neighbours need. We must carry on to our local authorities and ask again | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
and again. This humanitarian crisis will not end neatly at the end of | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
this financial year, neither must our compassion. If we are | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
unsuccessful today, I have already tabled an amendment to the | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
children's social welfare bill, which will return soon. There is | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
substantial cross-party support behind this debate. As long as | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
Europe is under pressure to find homes for the most honourable | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
casualties of war and persecution, we must keep asking what more can we | :05:29. | :05:39. | |
do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm very keen to speak from an Ulster | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
Unionists point of view, but may I congratulate the members who have | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
raised the matter today. I very much agree with the points that were | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
made. The points made by the previous Speaker. I'm going to be | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
shot. I was very keen -- I'm going to be sure. I was keen to learn how | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
much the Government was doing, and pleased to see it was ?2.3 billion. | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
Very pleased to be supporting the vulnerable person resettlement | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
programme. And to know that there were 4500 coming to the UK with 300 | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
coming to Northern Ireland. And the Ulster Unionists are clear that we | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
in Northern Ireland must do our bit. And we need to be more included in | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
it. I know we are in the middle of elections at the moment. But we need | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
to be involved to make sure that we are sharing. I was disappointed, | :06:34. | :06:45. | |
having listened to why we needn't have supported things here because | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
the Dubbs Amendment was coming through, to then find it being | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
dropped. And reading through, thinking of our British values and | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
looking after people and helping, it should have come back to the House | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
for a debate. We have touched on it a bit today. So that we can all | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
learn more about trafficking and how we can help people. All I have seen | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
in my brief time here are the camps in Kurdistan in northern Iraq, and | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
impressed by how they run but appalled by the fact that they are | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
people who have years before they get back to their homes, there was a | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
tent for a family of six. Most families were eight or 12. | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
Incredibly well looked after, but they showed as the same thing, we | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
have got to come as a country, be compassionate. I feel that by | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
dropping the Dubbs recommend went, we have not done what we promised | :07:34. | :07:42. | |
and we must do it. We have got to have compassion, we have got to be | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
helping people and keep working at it. Let's do what we should as | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
British people and help look after everyone else. Thank you. Thank you, | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
Mr Speaker. I was supposed to take part in this debate, congratulations | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
in securing it. At the heart of the debate is the key question, have we | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
done enough for child refugees? Have we show our compassion? And the | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
answer now, and always, is and will be, no, not yet. It's not about | :08:12. | :08:21. | |
saying, well, we're just going to do this amount to comply with our | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
interpretation of the law and see if that's enough and move on. It's | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
about wanting to do the maximum for those most vulnerable, those | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
refugees who need our support. That can happen in all manners of ways, | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
not just through compliance or Dublin or aid obligations or | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
resettlement. Indeed, the care for those who come irregularly on to our | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
shores. In all manner of ways we can show our compassion. The Home | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
Secretary was right when in October in the party conference speech, | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
which perhaps didn't get much publicity, she said, compassion has | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
no borders. She's right, compassion has no borders. That is something we | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
will hold onto. Compassion is not the preserve of any one political | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
party, it is not the preserve of backbenchers or indeed ministers. I | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
understand the difficult job there is to do on the complexities. We all | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
care about these honourable people. It is how we can practically deliver | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
this. The Government has a good record, everyone has said around the | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
2.3 billion international aid effort, about the 8000 unaccompanied | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
children that have come through last year that have been cared for. Many | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
of those indeed through the VPR Syrians scheme. But what I | :09:38. | :09:39. | |
particularly commend the Government for is that they haven't focused on | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
the numbers. They have been focused on the issues of safety and | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
vulnerability. Whether that is indeed in the UK, whether it is the | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
value for our pound goes well in Syria, the Middle East, the North | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
African region, or indeed in Europe as well. That is where the focus has | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
been. That is why every time and cross-party pressure the Government | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
has moved from the 200 VPR scheme to a 20,000 VPR scheme. And that was | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
despite some pushback from some people, it moved because we looked. | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
We are not going to pick a number, we are looking at how far we can go. | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
We are opening the door to look at how we can respond to issues of | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
vulnerability and safety. That is why I welcome the Government's Conte | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
approach. We are on a journey, we don't know what will happen next. -- | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
continued approach. We have really dish up role. An international | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
leadership role, I do want to touch on it briefly. -- we have a | :10:38. | :10:46. | |
leadership role. I think we must keep the door open to the refugee | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
crisis. It is why I welcomed last April and May how the Government | :10:50. | :10:51. | |
responded to the call from the public and elsewhere, 3000 child | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
refugees. What was our response to that particular 3000 number? The | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
charities recognised, it was an arbitrary number but it mobilised | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
as, quite rightly, wanted the Government to do more. The | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
Government responded and said, yes, we will take 3000 more vulnerable | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
children. We will take them from the Middle East, North Africa region. | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
That is the largest resettlement avid, the largest internationally | :11:15. | :11:16. | |
that focuses on children and those at risk. The Government wanted to go | :11:17. | :11:24. | |
further. What the Government did was respond to the very wonderful, | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
credible campaign, led by Lord dubs, that led eventually to the section | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
67 Immigration Act. The focus of response was commendable because it | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
was practical. It recognised that the issue of numbers when it comes | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
to those in Europe is not the best way to approach things. It can in | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
refugee camps particularly, the police and North African region, | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
when we are in Europe it is, skated in partnership with our French and | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
Italian and Greek neighbours. It is a complicated issue, and it has to | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
be worked practically with them and also with local authorities will | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
stop that is why I supported very much when we ended up with a revised | :12:00. | :12:01. | |
amendment. It is a practical approach and it is | :12:02. | :12:09. | |
what the Prime Minister, when the Prime Minister said, the previous | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
Prime Minister said that the scheme is about those at risk of | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
trafficking or exploitation and they will be prioritised for resettlement | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
and existing family reunion routes will be accelerated. He said the | :12:25. | :12:26. | |
government was not putting a fixed number of arrivals deliberately but | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
we will work with local authorities to determine how many children would | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
be resettled. I took that to be a practical way of moving is forward. | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
I did not expect those numbers to be 350 and I don't think that was what | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
was in any members of Parliament's minds. It was practical and that is | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
why the Home Secretary, in writing to honourable friends, said the | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
scheme has not closed as reported by some, we were obliged by the | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
immigration act to put a specific member on children we would take | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
based on consultation with local authorities about their capacity and | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
this is the number we have published and we will be working with -- | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
increase, Italy and France to transfer further children. We are | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
clear that the hide these numbers are children and it is vital we get | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
the balance right between enabling eligible children to come to the UK | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
as quickly as possible and ensuring local authorities have the capacity | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
to host them and provide them with the support they need. Mike Leigh | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
interpretation of that and the reality is that the government can | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
have whatever interpretation they want, we have is a matter of | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
stature, with no revision, no sunset clause, notes extra bill come into | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
Parliament saying it doesn't apply any more, the amendment still stands | :13:44. | :13:51. | |
but let's call it the Cameron scheme, that had a particular | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
cut-off, the 20th of March 2006 but the government is at liberty to | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
change that but what is in statute is our response blitzed to work with | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
local authorities to come up with the right figure. The government is | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
still open, it had its own time at that needs to be reset and it is | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
open and needs to go wider, maybe wider than the commitment which is | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
statutory into an offering places across local authorities. That would | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
offer 4000 more spaces. I would urge the government to go back as the | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
independent commission has said. He asked the government, and his letter | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
says this clearly, that he would welcome greater transparency on the | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
crucial issue of capacity will stop he would encourage the government to | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
go back and show the door could be wide open and the urges the | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
government to ensure that when it goes and focuses in terms of Greece | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
and Italy, that it publishes of the commissioner said, breadth of | :14:57. | :14:58. | |
criteria on all forms of modern slavery. When one looks in Italy, it | :14:59. | :15:07. | |
is said that there are 3000 unaccompanied Nigerian children who | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
arrived last year. Most of them have already been victims of trafficking. | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
And where is their destination? It is to the UK. We are taking a lead | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
in terms of modern slavery, the Prime Minister is taking a lead, she | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
wanted to find this out. We have a responsibility to these women and | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
children and I want to see the government taking those | :15:31. | :15:32. | |
responsibilities seriously, is keeping the Dubs amendment open and | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
resetting in Italy where the turkey deal has no relevance and ensure it | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
is open to take the responsibility to keep on that part of | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
vulnerability and safety for these child refugees. Mr Speaker, it is | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
also a pleasure to take part in this important debate. I will vote last | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
year on the Dubs amendment was one of my biggest tests in parliament | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
since the election will stop on the morning of the vote as I constructed | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
and drafted and published my position on why I was going to be | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
supporting the government on the issue yet sitting through the whole | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
of the actual debate listening to the arguments put forward by members | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
from both sides of the house, I changed my mind. I ended up voting | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
with the amendments, such is the power of this place, much to the | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
frustration, I appreciate, the government whips. Although the | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
government won the boat that evening, shortly afterwards his | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
tells us that they've changed their position and accept that the amended | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
version of the Dubs amendment -- after the vote. We have now seen the | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
announcement that we will take 150 more children under the Dubs | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
amendment. I must say how sad and disappointed I was to hear this. The | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
government does have a very proud record when it comes to the response | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
to the events in Syria and the wider region. We have pledged over ?2.3 | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
billion in aid, the largest ever humanitarian response to a single | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
crisis, second only to the US. And thanks to the good will of the | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
British people and indeed local authorities up and down the country | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
in the last year alone we have provided refuge and other forms of | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
leave to more than 8000 children. Yet this doesn't mean we can ignore | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
the crisis currently happening in Italy in Greece, across Europe, we | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
cannot say job done, pull up the drawbridge on Dubs and leave | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
vulnerable children at risk on the continent. There are two main that | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
have been put forward by those keen for the UK to do less to help. The | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
first is that local authorities do not have the capacity for more | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
children. Even if this is the case, it is no reason not to re-consult | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
with them regularly and allow them to take in children when they can. | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
As I understand it, the last consultation took in June 2016. We | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
all know the Dubs amendment did not specify numbers but it did mandate | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
the government to consult with local authorities as to their capacity to | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
support unaccompanied child refugees. Yet across the UK there | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
are 217 upper tier and unitary local authorities all with responsibility | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
for children's services. The 400 Dubs children don't even equipped to | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
two unaccompanied children per council so I would challenge anyone | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
making bids claimed that it reflect actual capacity. The second argument | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
is that this scheme, or schemes like it can act as a pull factor for | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
children intent on coming to the UK -- the United Kingdom. The | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
anti-slavery Commissioner published a statement on these issues this | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
afternoon, saying that he felt the Dubs amendment had had exactly the | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
opposite effect of being a pull factor and had actually meant that | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
fewer people were pulled to the UK by the traffickers. I think the | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
Honourable lady for her intervention and I will come onto this exact | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
point because I agree. I think focusing on the pull factor of 20 -- | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
ignores the power of push factors. These children are not economic | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
migrants, seeking to come to the UK with the hope of making more money, | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
they are refugees fleeing conflict, persecution, poverty, fear and | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
desperation, putting themselves in grave danger. Because there is a | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
very small chance that a safer life exists across the Mediterranean. We | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
have heard this factor mentioned a lot in the debate last year on the | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
Dubs amendment but the newest incarnation of the argument, that | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
children move within Europe in the hope of being brought to Britain, in | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
my view it simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. When the government | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
introduced the scheme, they introduced a cut-off date of the | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
20th of March and that meant it only applied to children already in | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
Europe so how could it possibly serve as an incentive or a pull | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
factor? As I mentioned, there has been remarkable work by the | :20:05. | :20:16. | |
Department for International Development in the countries | :20:17. | :20:18. | |
surrounding Syria and in the war zones around the world. We know that | :20:19. | :20:20. | |
that has played an important role in discouraging people from travelling | :20:21. | :20:22. | |
to Europe. Most importantly, safe and legal routes to the UK encourage | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
children to engage with the local authorities and this is the point, | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
rather than throwing in their lot with people traffickers in the hope | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
of being smuggled into the UK. I'm told, and I expect this is the point | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
she is making, that there is an total evidence, and I have heard it | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
from NGOs and charities, that suggest that when children are | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
transferred from the Calais Campbell! Jungle to the UK, | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
spontaneous arrivals by legal means almost simply stopped -- the Calais | :20:50. | :20:59. | |
Jungle. I would suggest that it is better that scared and vulnerable | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
children with a shocking lack of information as to their rights are | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
encouraged to engage with the formal system in the hope of safe transfer | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
rather than risking their lives. I'm concerned that if we reduce those | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
formal paths to a silent in the UK, children will be just playing into | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
the hands of -- we will be playing into the hands of people smugglers. | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
Talking to charities that have worked with children in the camps of | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
northern France, there are countless stories of children who, hearing | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
they will not be relocated to the UK, have returned from safe | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
children's centres to the squalor of camps like that outside Dunkirk, in | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
order to find illicit routes into Britain. Safe location schemes mean | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
that the Home Office can assess whether it is in the best interests | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
of the child to be brought here and to ensure that the most vulnerable, | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
or those with a family in the UK, are taken to safety, and encourage | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
others to claim asylum in France. The Dubs amendment's pack -- passage | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
into legislation marked an acknowledgement that we have a duty | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
to do better than this. We can do better than this, and I urge the | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
Government to reconsider, to keep the scheme open and to continue to | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
consult with local authorities. We cannot let it end here. Thank you, | :22:20. | :22:27. | |
Mr Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to speak in this | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
important debate this afternoon and commend the member for Wirral South | :22:32. | :22:33. | |
for securing it this afternoon. Three years ago I had the | :22:34. | :22:42. | |
opportunity to go to Turkey to visit a refugee camp very close to the | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
Syrian border. What struck me then was not just the size of the camp at | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
that this felt like the start of something much longer and much more | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
protracted. And I recall those talks and chats with families who all they | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
wanted to do, Mr Speaker, was get back to their home in Syria. And | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
then, three years later, last year, as a member of the IGC select | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
committee, with my friend the honourable member for Mid | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
Derbyshire, I went to Jordan and Lebanon, and to visit refugees and | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
some of the host communities. And again, I was struck by the size of | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
those camps, the vulnerability of those people, but also the sheer | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
amount of work that was going in to support them, and rightly so, and | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
the huge amount of effort that is put into that by the host | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
communities, host countries and the International donors, too. I want to | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
touch firstly on the UK response, therefore, to the Syrian crisis, in | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
broad terms, and the migration crisis, a response which I think we | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
and the British people should be proud of, given the scale of the | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
challenge. To date, DFI D has allocated ?2.3 billion in response | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
to the Syria crisis. The UK is the second largest bilateral donor to | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
the humanitarian response in Syria since it began in 2012, and one of | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
the few EU countries to commit to 0.7%. Between February 2012 and | :24:12. | :24:21. | |
August 2016, figures show that in Syria and the region, UKAEA has | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
included providing over 21 million individual monthly rations, in | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
excess of 6.5 million relief packages, over 6 million vaccines, | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
plus help -- health support and grants and vouchers. And that is not | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
it. Between October 2005 and December 2016, the UK has given | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
support to refugees and migrants during the Mediterranean crisis, | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
many not from Syria but from other countries which has included meals | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
to refugees in migrant camps in Greece and Serbia, included relief | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
items such as blankets, temporary beds, hygiene kits to refugees and | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
migrants coming across Europe, as well as health care, emergency first | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
aid, protection and prevention is, legal support and assistance. I am | :25:10. | :25:17. | |
proud of all the work that goes on, and the staff that work often in | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
very difficult situations, and the international NGO community. But it | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
is vital in this approach that we have a balanced manner, targeting | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
support to help the most vulnerable, but also working closely with local | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
authorities. Because after all, Mr Speaker, they are ultimately those | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
who resettle and provide a home and, crucially, the support for these | :25:43. | :25:44. | |
vulnerable individuals. As we often hear, we know of the pressures that | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
local authorities are under. I looked up some figures on foster | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
families and found that we do a lot of work in government to encourage | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
families to come forward and foster children, but we still need to do | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
more. And that is an existing challenge that we are ready face. | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
This government agreed to resettle 20,000 Syrians during the course of | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
this Parliament. To settle 3000 children and their families from the | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
wider region. And in the UK we have also granted asylum, or another form | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
of leave, to over 8000 children. Our resettlement programme is the | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
biggest in Europe. And the Government has also transferred over | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
900 children from Europe, including more than 750 from France. It's my | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
belief, Mr Speaker, that this is crucial work, and work that the | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
Government is dedicated to doing and committed to doing and to | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
continuing, through Dublin, through the Dubs amendment, under the VC RS, | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
under the Syrian vulnerable persons resettlement programme. But it is | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
also vital that we do not create a strong incentive for refugees to | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
undertake that dangerous journey across the Mediterranean and put | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
themselves in the hands of people traffickers. And I know this is | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
something that perhaps we do not all share the same opinion on. But for | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
me, I look at the figures of 2015, in what was probably the biggest | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
movement of people since the Second World War. I do not have the | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
statistics for 2016 but I am sure that the challenge of fragile | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
states, conflict affected countries and regions remains. Through some of | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
the work that I do with the IGC select committee, we have seen many | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
examples of it, through committee work and some of the visits we have | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
been fortunate to undertake. We also heard this week, Mr Speaker, about | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
the prospect of serious famine across Africa, too. That is in | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
addition to high youth unemployment in some countries. These are all | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
extra factors that I believe are at the moment driving migration. It is | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
not something that has just happened, but has been happening for | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
some time. I do not blame any young person for taking the initiative and | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
wanting to make a better life for themselves. But it is important that | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
when they do that, they do it for the right reasons, and that there is | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
safe passage available for those who are entitled to that safe passage. | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
So I am very conscious of time, so I am just going to wind up by saying | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
all of this highlights, to me, some of the challenges we face in the | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
modern world today. And as well as looking to seek the short-term | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
solutions that we do through humanitarian aid, through schemes | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
that the Home Office is undertaking now, we must also use all the other | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
means at our disposal to tackle some of these problems at source. That | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
means using the FCO and our diplomacy skills and influence | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
across the world. It also means using the Department for | :28:52. | :28:53. | |
International Development and the aid budget, not just to provide | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
humanitarian aid to those who need it most, but also to tackle things | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
like economic development, things like developing livelihoods. It is | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
only in that way, and working to reduce conflict and instability, | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
that we will ever, I think, really get to the bottom of some of these | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
very deep rooted challenges we face today. | :29:15. | :29:21. | |
Just before I call the honourable gentleman, I should remind the house | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
that the debate must finish no later than 6:25pm. And some may think | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
there is merit in it finishing slightly before them. So I would | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
appeal to the honourable gentleman and the right honourable lady to | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
take account of the wish of the honourable lady for Wirral South, | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
who opened the debate, to have a number of minutes to conclude it. | :29:45. | :29:51. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I start by saying, like other honourable | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
members, I genuinely welcome all the good work the Government has done | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
and continues to do in terms of resettlement and aid. But the | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
winding down of the dubs scheme is a deeply misguided decision, and it | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
flies so far in the evidence -- in the face of the evidence that it is | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
scandalous. For those reasons, I congratulate the securing of this | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
debate and the opportunity to hold the Government to account. We have | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
heard many fine speeches today already. If anyone really wants to | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
understand why it is such a misguided and scandalous decision, I | :30:27. | :30:28. | |
would urge them to read the transcript of the compelling | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
evidence that the home Affairs Select Committee heard yesterday | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
from Unicef, safe passage, save the children, The Children's Society, | :30:39. | :30:40. | |
representatives of local government and Scotland's children's | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
Commissioner. To use the words of Tambe Lee, the last of the | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
witnesses, the limits placed on the number of transfers is a shameful | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
step back from an already weak UK response to the plight of migrant | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
children stranded in Europe. I distinguish the situation as regards | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
Europe from the help the government has provided in the region. We agree | :31:01. | :31:02. | |
with the children's Commissioner, and not only do we think that Dobbs | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
should be reinstated and expanded but stronger and faster procedures | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
for transfers and union rules and processes. One person in each of | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
Greece or Italy transferring seven or eight people each year is not | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
remotely in the ballpark of what Parliament expected. All of that is | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
affected in this motion which we support. The evidence of the | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
witnesses yesterday is that the scheme is a modest scheme. It is | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
modest but very significant and unique contribution to dealing with | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
the migration crisis facing Europe. It is completely the right thing to | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
do. It is worth reiterating why this is such a precious prize. Conditions | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
for too many of the over 100,000 unaccompanied chair -- child | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
refugees in Europe are appalling. Those in Greece, 2300, more than | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
half are living in tens with no heating, freezing conditions, lack | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
of hot water, inadequate medical care, violence and mistreatment. | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
Dubs, alongside other schemes, can make sure that stops happening and | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
make our fair contribution towards that effort. That is what we are | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
pushing for. If it is not us that does this, how can we say any other | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
country should step up and take their share? Most impressively, | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
witnesses yesterday utterly dismantled the two tenuous reasons | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
given for phasing the scheme out. First, the honourable member for | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
Cambridgeshire South has said that it is wrong for the Home Secretary | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
to argue that it plays into the hands of people traffickers. The | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
opposite is the case. Ending Dubs would be a boon for people | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
traffickers. That was the opinion of Unicef, safe passage, save the | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
children and the International rescue committee. We heard in the | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
last speech that the anti-slavery Commissioner has published a similar | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
report. It begs the question, Mr Speaker, did the Government take | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
advice from their own independent expert before reaching that | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
decision? Based on what we understand this afternoon and the | :33:05. | :33:06. | |
letter referred to earlier, he would give them absolutely contrary advice | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
to what the government has decided to do. The second argument made by | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
the Government foreclosing the scheme is of course a about local | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
government capacity. Witnesses yesterday were absolutely clear that | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
it is not fair to argue that local authorities have capacity for 400 | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
and that is the end of the story. On the contrary, there can be | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
significant more capacity and we were reminded that even if we just | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
look at the Government's own 0.7% target in terms of the National | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
transfer scheme, that leaves capacity for 4000. But to talk about | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
what is existing capacity misses the point, because as the children's | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
Commissioner pointed out, the question we should ask is, what | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
additional capacity can we create, what investment and time is needed | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
to ensure we are in a position to take our fair share? The question is | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
not how much can we comfortably handle now, but how much do we need | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
to do, to invest, if we are to do our fair share? The 3000 in the | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
original Dubs amendment was not plucked out of thin air but was a | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
careful calculation by save the children using the EU relocation | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
formula to decide what our fair share of the estimated number of | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
children in Europe at that time would be. The number of children in | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
Europe is now roughly three times that so even if we stuck to the | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
original 3000 it is still a modest contribution and underestimates the | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
number we would rightly be expected to take. Instead of dodging | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
responsibilities, more than ever we need to live up to them. As we | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
heard, the First Minister said Scotland is ready to play its part | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
and next week will be hosting another roundtable in response to | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
the situation. Yesterday we heard that local government in England and | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
Wales is prepared to get involved. Based on yesterday's session and | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
briefings from other organisations like Amnesty and the International | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
Red Cross, there is an abundance of expertise and ideas and proposals, | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
not only about how to continue Dubs alongside Dublin, but how to expand | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
it and make it work better and faster, not just in France, but | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
Italy, Greece, Bulgaria and the Balkans West at -- such schemes are | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
needed. The Government should be working with NGOs, local government | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
and other public body -- bodies who are prepared to make this happen. | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
This motion reflects a very strong track record on international aid to | :35:33. | :35:35. | |
countries around Syria and I praise that, but that is not some down | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
payment that allows us to wash our hands of the sponsor the city for | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
hosting our share of refugees. All of the good work risks being | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
overshadowed in years ahead by the intransigence of the Home Office in | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
this regard. If we think hypothetically, if 100,000 | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
unaccompanied children arrived up the Thames in the UK, the Home | :36:00. | :36:01. | |
Office would take a different approach. It would not say, we will | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
deal with this and take some aid from Europe. They would expect other | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
countries to step up to the plate, so we should take the same approach. | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
The minister received credit for the action in respect of Calais, action | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
which their predecessors had dodged for too long, which meant the | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
process was unnecessarily messy. But that showed that with investment and | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
political will significant progress can be achieved and lives changed. | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
We should stick to those instincts, reader in consultation with local | :36:35. | :36:36. | |
authorities, abandon the myths and make policy based on evidence. | :36:37. | :36:45. | |
Expand the Dubs schemes, improve Dublin and family reunion processes. | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
If it does so, it will be showing respect for this parliament, will | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
command respect from the public, show solidarity with our European | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
neighbours and most importantly it will save children from exploitation | :36:57. | :37:04. | |
and abuse. Diane Abbott. I would like to begin by congratulating | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
members for Wirral South and others in securing this important debate | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
and to acknowledge that we have heard some very powerful speeches | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
this afternoon from, amongst others, the member for Wirral South, Ealing, | :37:15. | :37:24. | |
Southall, Mid Derbyshire, Dundee West, Loughborough, Bradford West, | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
the member for whom informed the house that she had actually fostered | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
refugee children which, I think, gives what she has to say some | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
significance. The member for South Cambridgeshire, the member for | :37:40. | :37:48. | |
infield, and others. And most members, on all sides of the house, | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
from all parties, have made it abundantly clear this afternoon that | :37:56. | :38:04. | |
the Government, in effectively closing the Dubs scheme, after a | :38:05. | :38:11. | |
mere 350 children, we believe the government has fallen far short of | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
what members in both houses thought they were voting for. | :38:15. | :38:21. | |
All I have listened to this debate today and I have heard very powerful | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
presentations from many people across the house and I think what | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
this debate is -- distilled down to is to clear things, one, what do we | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
want to look like to the rest of the world? What example to be want to | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
set and what country do we want to be? | :38:41. | :38:42. | |
Do you agree with that? I would agree, it is about, particularly | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
post-Brexit, what sort of Britain are we? Genuinely outward looking | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
internationalist humanist country or are we a country that is seeking | :38:53. | :39:01. | |
ways to avoid its moral obligations? I must begin by acknowledging the | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
investment and exemplary work in the refugees that have stayed in camps | :39:08. | :39:09. | |
in the region and I visited those camps. But this debate today is | :39:10. | :39:17. | |
about the same refugee children and others who are in mainland Europe. | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
Some members today and sadly the Minister have spoken as if, if we | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
pretend that those tens of thousands of child refugees already in Europe | :39:30. | :39:37. | |
somehow don't exist, they don't matter, that they will disappear. I | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
must bring the focus of the house to the tens of thousands of children on | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
mainland Europe. And I would content that in narrowing the safe and legal | :39:50. | :39:58. | |
rights from Europe for these refugee children, the government runs the | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
risk of acting as a marketing manager for people traffickers. I | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
have visited the caps in France and Greece, these children may be in | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
safe countries as some members have said, but they are in horrible | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
conditions. And this is despite the best efforts and the personal | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
kindness... I have to make progress and this is despite... I have | :40:24. | :40:31. | |
listened with a lot of care to all of the speeches by members on both | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
in order to make time for my in order to make time for my | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
honourable friend. Carreon, carry on. I have visited the camps in | :40:42. | :40:50. | |
France and Greece, and these children may be in the said | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
countries but they are in horrible conditions. This is despite the fact | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
that so many local people do the best to be kind and helpful. And I | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
would argue, far from the argument of some members in this house, this | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
argument that if you provide safe and legal writs from Europe, this is | :41:10. | :41:10. | |
some kind of incentive. No one has some kind of incentive. No one has | :41:11. | :41:19. | |
visited those camps and look those families in the high -- no one who | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
has visited those camps and looks those families and children in the | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
eye and possibly argue that they have come to Europe on some sort of | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
John and can be easily turned back. These are families and young people | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
who have risked their lives and seen people die crossing the Sahara, and | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
then risked their lives again crossing the Mediterranean. Of | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
course it is true that the French government should have done more in | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
the past and it is because the French were so slow originally to | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
register refugees of all ages that so many set their hearts on the UK. | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
But letters be realistic about the conditions facing refugees in | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
Europe. Increased the conditions facing asylum seekers were so dire | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
that as long ago as 2011 the ECR ruled unlawful to send people back | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
there. Only last year in December the European Commission finally | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
decided that sufficient improvements had been made to other EU member | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
states to start sending people back to Greece. But how far have | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
conditions improved really? I am not so sure they have. Last month just | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
weeks after the commission said it was appropriate to send people the | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
were reports that the migrants in an overcrowded camp had died within ten | :42:36. | :42:44. | |
days of each other. It is not the immediate core -- immediate | :42:45. | :42:46. | |
was carbon monoxide poisoning with was carbon monoxide poisoning with | :42:47. | :42:48. | |
men sharing overcrowded tents inhaling toxic fumes from the | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
heaters they had been forced to use in the harsh temperatures. When the | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
number of new arrivals reached its highest ever level last year | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
conditions may have been worse still. Recent measures requiring the | :43:03. | :43:11. | |
Italian authorities to take a new arrivals have led to shocking abuses | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
according to Amnesty International. They documented cases where the | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
police used beatings and electric shocks to force compliance from | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
fingerprints to be taken. Say these fingerprints to be taken. Say these | :43:24. | :43:30. | |
countries are technically safe, but don't say conditions in these | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
justified. Closing off one of the justified. Closing off one of the | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
safe legal rights for children to go from mainland Europe to this country | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
where they have relatives or other appropriate legal reasons to come. | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
And at the question of local government capacity, we have heard | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
that David Simons from the local government Association said that the | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
Home Office child refugee funding to councils only covers 15% of the | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
funding costs, this is a serious matter. When so many local | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
and Conservative are under terrible and Conservative are under terrible | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
funding pressure. There has been very limited consultation with local | :44:17. | :44:18. | |
authorities and all the evidence says that given more time, and | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
councils would step up to provide councils would step up to provide | :44:26. | :44:28. | |
accommodation for the child refugees. The lack of capacity, | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
absolute lack of capacity by local authorities are simply not been | :44:35. | :44:42. | |
proven. It is... Thank you for giving way. To point out local | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
authorities receive 10p per year for each unaccompanied child under 16, | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
slightly more than 15% of the cost of doing that. I can only listen to | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
the local government Association and base it on the covers 15% of funding | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
costs. My point is this. It is all too easy to say that in closing off | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
roads whether it is the dog schemes are Dublin, causing offers refugee | :45:09. | :45:15. | |
children in Europe you are acting in their best interests, that somehow | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
they will go back, that somehow the fact that we are indeed doing good | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
work in the region offsets the fact that children are being left in | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
squalor and at the mercy of people traffickers on the continent of | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
Europe. It is all too easy but it is not right. The hallmark of a country | :45:33. | :45:41. | |
is the fairness and the justice and humanity with which it treats the | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
most vulnerable and who could be more for removal at this time and | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
refugee children? So I joined my voice with the voice of so many | :45:53. | :45:54. | |
members on both sides of this house members on both sides of this house | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
who are pleading with the government even at this late stage to fulfil | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
the hopes and expectations that members both in this house and in | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
the other place had when they voted for the amendment, we are pleading | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
with the government to fulfil not just its legal obligations but its | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
moral obligations and hacks to save the tens and thousands of refugee | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
people still, refugee children still on the continent of Europe, save | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
them from the squalor, save them from the people traffickers, save | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
them from exploitation and above all perhaps save this country's good | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
name and reputation. To wind up the debate I call Alison | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
McGovern. Thank you. I began this great by | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
explaining it was a cross-party debate because the fate of refugees | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
in a world because that belongs to no one political party, no one | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
ideology, no one faction and the remainder of that opinion having | :47:02. | :47:02. | |
listened to the contributions from listened to the contributions from | :47:03. | :47:09. | |
fact, along with a member from fact, along with a member from | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
Hackney has shown great courage herself in recent weeks, the member | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
for Walthamstow, the member for Pontefract in Castleford, and in | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
Bradford West, Mr Speaker, made be deeply proud to be a Labour Party | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
member has a little bit. However, in listening to the member for South | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
Cambridge courage and West Devon, Colchester, Loughborough, Dundee | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
West, cover North in Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch I felt proud of my | :47:38. | :47:45. | |
country. However, the minister decided that he would seek to speak | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
at the beginning of this debate. And an understanding that he wished to | :47:50. | :47:52. | |
do so personally I hope he was going to set the tone of this debate by | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
making some new announcement, by giving some new that perhaps might | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
soul is filled. Unfortunately Mr soul is filled. Unfortunately Mr | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
Speaker the opposite was the case. I remain still with unanswered | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
questions. We suspect we do not have enough staff in Greece to process | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
Minister has said he would write Minister has said he would write | :48:21. | :48:22. | |
your that point from which I am grateful. We still don't really know | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
the true picture of local authority capacity, to accept new child | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
refugees under the DOS amendment, although members right across this | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
house have pointed to examples of their own council leaders have said | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
quite clearly unequivocally they can do more. So the Minister must, must | :48:42. | :48:50. | |
make a proper formal assessment and either raid or perhaps my friends | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
the chair of the select committee or place that information in the house | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
or some other public way. But finally and most importantly, he | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
should commit to a proper reopening of the dog scheme, given we have | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
clear evidence that there is widespread support for the scheme | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
and that local authorities can and will accept more children. There is | :49:13. | :49:19. | |
no cause for this limit of 350, whatever the rights and wrongs of | :49:20. | :49:21. | |
what was said to who, where and when, as many members have said | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
nobody went into this debate thinking that this was the number | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
that we were going to accept and the Minister must commit to a properly | :49:32. | :49:39. | |
opening of Dubbs. I have no wish to detain out any further, I want to | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
conclude by saying that there are very clear practical reasons why | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
turning away from refugees is a bad idea. Whether it is the impact of | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
that message on people in poorer countries who are more likely to | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
turn to the siren voices, extremists and terrorists but we do not stand | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
up to the -- if we do not stand up for the values we say we believe in | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
whether that is wider consequences of poverty that leads to conflict in | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
the first place, turning away from refugees from a practical | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
perspective is just not in our national interest. I remain of the | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
view Mr Speaker, having met refugees myself, I remain of the view that | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
the average British person who thinks about probably these issues | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
for no more than a couple of minutes every month or so, if they met | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
refugee and saw what those of us in this house have seen then they would | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
feel absolutely clear that they wanted to help, none of them | :50:43. | :50:44. | |
eternally. And yet just now our world is caught | :50:45. | :50:57. | |
up in the oldest of stories, that when times are hard, extreme | :50:58. | :51:00. | |
politicians turn up and tell ordinary working people to blame | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
foreigners, rather than see the truth, that people who become | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
refugees are just like us. So the way forward for the Government now | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
is clear, reopened Dubs, get more staff to Greece, get children to | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
safety. Mr Speaker, until they do so, I and my colleagues from all | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
parties will be back here time and again. Order, the question is as on | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
the order paper. As many as are of that opinion, say I. Of the | :51:30. | :51:41. | |
contrary, say no. The division is deferred until Wednesday the 1st of | :51:42. | :51:49. | |
March. Order. We come now to the adjournment. The whip to move. I beg | :51:50. | :52:02. | |
to move the house do now adjourned. The question is that this House do | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
now adjourn. May I appealed to members who might be leaving the | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
chamber, quite unaccountably, in the light of the parliamentary feast | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
that remains to be consumed, to do so quickly and quietly. The question | :52:16. | :52:22. | |
is that this House do now adjourn. Mr Dennis Skinner. Thank you very | :52:23. | :52:31. | |
much, Mr Speaker, for allowing this debate today, because it's a very | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
important subject about HS2 in my constituency. I remember quite | :52:37. | :52:44. | |
clearly the statement that was made by the then Secretary of State for | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
Transport, announcing a for the North. And I asked him then whether | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
it would be going to Derbyshire Dales. And of course, the answer was | :52:57. | :53:03. | |
no. But one thing was certain, it was going through the very heavily | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
populated eastern side of Derbyshire. And that meant there was | :53:07. | :53:17. | |
going to be some trouble. And sure enough, during the course of the | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
past few months, I have been trying to deal with that trouble in parts | :53:21. | :53:33. | |
of Bolsover, meeting people. One industrial estate owned by a firm | :53:34. | :53:40. | |
including -- employing nearly 100 people, where the line goes straight | :53:41. | :53:47. | |
through its factory. Little did I know, however, that in the course of | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
the past few weeks, a decision was made that was going to supersede | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
everything that I thought about HS2. And that was the decision by Mr | :54:01. | :54:07. | |
Higgins, in charge of HS2, who decided that it would be a good idea | :54:08. | :54:13. | |
that in Sheffield, that is built on seven hills, to have a station in | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
the middle of Sheffield. A station pot in a moment. A station that is a | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
dead-end station, which means that the trains go in and come out the | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
same way. Whereas previously it was going to be where the old steel | :54:30. | :54:37. | |
industry was, now called Meadowhall, a massive shopping area that was a | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
flat area. Most of us assumed that Meadowhall would be the ideal spot. | :54:45. | :54:52. | |
At this point I will give way to my honourable friend. I thank my | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
honourable friend forgiving way. We have a similar situation in | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
Coventry. If you look at Warwickshire, it will desecrate | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
Warwickshire, affect a lock of villagers. Many people in Coventry | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
who could be affected by this will not get any compensation. The | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
Elliott family, for example, are in that situation. More importantly, | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
Coventry could lose out on investment, and that could happen to | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
the honourable gentleman's constituency. I have no doubt that | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
Birmingham is favoured because it is part of that newfangled powerhouse. | :55:31. | :55:37. | |
Whereas Coventry is not regarded as such. In my area, it means the | :55:38. | :55:44. | |
powerhouse is basically Sheffield. Therefore, they requested from Mr | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
David Higgins that they wanted a station in the city built on seven | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
hills, and they got one. Little did I realise that although I was doing | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
meetings about the HS2 and voting against it, the truth is that it was | :56:00. | :56:09. | |
like a bombshell. And it meant that this argument about localism versus | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
powerhouses means that the powerhouse wins every time. It's | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
preposterous that they didn't even consider what would happen in | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
Derbyshire the moment that they designated Sheffield as a station. | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
And that meant the whole line had to be redrawn. And the result was that | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
another line had to be found, through Derbyshire, and the net | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
result was that it's going through the middle of Newton, a small | :56:44. | :56:50. | |
village in my area, where more than 30 houses will be demolished, the | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
parish council is going to be cut in half, and the net result is all | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
because of the Sheffield decision. I'm not the only one that has had an | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
adjournment debates like this. This is the third that we have had about | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
this particular business of Sheffield. The reason why my right | :57:12. | :57:19. | |
honourable friend the member for Doncaster North was on his feet the | :57:20. | :57:25. | |
other Monday talking about what was happening when the route moves from | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
the station, not Meadowhall, towards his constituency of Doncaster North. | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
That means it is going to go through Mexborough and destroy houses there | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
as well. And the reason why my right honourable friend the member for | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
Rother Valley, who sits up there, got a -- an adjournment debate a few | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
weeks before was based upon the same matter. Sheffield had got the | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
station, and therefore they were going to go through a village called | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
Bramley and several others in his area, and the result is going to be | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
havoc for all those areas. Doncaster North, Rother Valley, and now | :58:11. | :58:18. | |
Derbyshire. And that is why the speaker gave us the adjournment | :58:19. | :58:25. | |
debate, because he knows that it's a very important issue. And I remember | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
that when I read the debate, the minister concerned referred to the | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
fact that when he was interjected upon, right at the very end, by my | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
right honourable friend, the ex-leader of the Labour Party, when | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
he asked him whether Meadowhall was still viable, on the table, the | :58:47. | :58:53. | |
minister said, yes. Now, I hope that is the case, because he, Higgins and | :58:54. | :59:02. | |
all the rest of them, the Secretary of State, have got to get their | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
heads together and stop this nonsense of allowing the station in | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
Sheffield. This is going to create more havoc than Hitler did in the | :59:12. | :59:17. | |
Second World War in our area. My father used to tell me as a little | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
kid, we will go and have a look at that big hole. The bomb dropped last | :59:22. | :59:27. | |
night. And it used to be near the railway line but it never hit it. | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
Why did they want to hit it, because it was diverted into two lines, won | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
the middle line and one the other line. I have to say to the Minister, | :59:37. | :59:47. | |
has he ever considered the idea of starting at Oulton, going straight | :59:48. | :59:54. | |
up the line that there already? It's used for traffic going to | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
Nottingham, and also for freight. And it could then connect up to the | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
Midland line, and therefore Newton would not be affected whatsoever. In | :00:07. | :00:12. | |
other words, it would be a slow line, like it is now, believe me. | :00:13. | :00:19. | |
All those 30 minutes have gone. Can you remember the 30 minutes when | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
they announced it? The business people will be able to get to London | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
30 minutes quicker, and they are going to spend... Well, the current | :00:28. | :00:36. | |
cost is ?78 billion. I know if I had got ?78 billion when I was in | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
government, I would have given a lot of it to the National Health Service | :00:41. | :00:47. | |
and some mortar social care. And I would have electrification of the | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
Sheffield line. -- some more to social care. Why don't they do that? | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
And if they do that with the Sheffield to London Midland line, | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
then they get the benefit of what would be applicable if they had HS2. | :01:01. | :01:09. | |
I thank my honourable friend forgiving way. It is an interesting | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
point because High Speed Rail Bill affect the frequency on the West | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
Coast Main Line, for example. Secondly, nobody knows exactly what | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
High Speed Rail Bill would cost in terms of passenger fares. That has | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
never been spilled out before. It could affect us in a number of ways | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
in Coventry but he was quite right when he mentioned Birmingham as the | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
regional capital. The benefits will go to Birmingham, and more | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
importantly, to get Birmingham on board, they will establish a skills | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
college. There are enough skills in the West Midlands and the East | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
Midlands to fulfil that objective. I absolutely agree with my honourable | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
friend. He has been with me in the lobbies when we have voted, but | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
little did I know when I was voting that I would be later on arguing | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
this case for the beleaguered people of Newton. It is horrific, when you | :02:02. | :02:10. | |
think about it. Here they were, playing no part in the HS2 argument. | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
Suddenly, a decision was made by Mr Higgins, no doubt supported by the | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
ministers concerned, who announced the Sheffield station. And the net | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
result is that we have these two lines, one the slow track that finds | :02:28. | :02:35. | |
its way through the middle of Newton and then joins the track later on. | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
It is a nonsense. The very idea that they thought they needed a branch | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
line when they could have carried on and gone straight through to | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
Sheffield on the Midland line. It is almost unbelievable that the | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
Government has fallen into this trap. And that is why I am pleased | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
that this morning I was able to say to the Secretary of State, today in | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
Question Time, whether he would meet the Newton people. Because as you | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
can imagine, immediately they found out that they were in the firing | :03:09. | :03:16. | |
line, they had a group of people immediately set to the task of | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
finding out what was going to happen and trying to make sure that it is | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
prevented. When I went there the other week, there were more than 300 | :03:26. | :03:34. | |
people in the hall, 150 people standing. It is a tiny village, but | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
this is the enormity of their response. And they kept the doors | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
open to the people on the streets to hear what was taking place. It was | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
the biggest meeting I have had since the general election, and it was all | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
done on the spur of the moment. So I ask the minister concerned that we | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
want to bring these people down, and they will ask the Minister, very | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
sensibly, about ensuring that instead of going to Newton, that the | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
train carries on and joins the Midland line on its way to | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
Sheffield. It will not make any difference about the time, because, | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
quite frankly, it is going to lose time on that route anyway. But it | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
means that the Government would not have two develop a branch line | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
called the Newton spur, that turns off to the left. That would not have | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
to be done. But the most sensible thing is for electrification of the | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
Midland line, and we are home and dry and would probably get trains | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
today travelling even faster. So I want the Minister to be able to | :05:01. | :05:08. | |
report to the Secretary of State about this discussion today, because | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
it can be resolved. But they do have two ensure that the Meadowhall idea | :05:15. | :05:23. | |
is continued with. And it means not only resolving the problem in | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
Newton, but it also means resolving the problem in Mexborough. It could | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
also solve the problem in Bramley, in Rother Valley as well. Those are | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
the things, in my opinion, that he could do most sensibly to solve this | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
problem. Have I done Court of an hour? -- quarter of an hour? I have | :05:45. | :05:56. | |
got two minutes. I hope that the Minister will take on board | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
everything I have said today. I have not tried to hide the facts. | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
Everything I have said in this chamber today has been based upon | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
the knowledge I have obtained going to the meetings with my Newton | :06:11. | :06:19. | |
colleagues, who believe they have a storm to deal with. And it came out | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
of the blue. Never realising that it would be a problem. So you will have | :06:26. | :06:33. | |
a fast line going on to Meadowhall, the slow line dwindling its way. | :06:34. | :06:40. | |
Let's keep it away from Newton. Thank you very much. Let's hope | :06:41. | :06:42. | |
there is a satisfactory conclusion. honourable gentleman for securing | :06:43. | :06:57. | |
this debate on high-speed rail? Apologies for being crooked but I | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
will get through the next quarter of an hour. Through programmes such as | :07:01. | :07:08. | |
HS2 this government is investing in world-class infrastructure to ensure | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
that the UK can seize the opportunities and compete on a | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
global stage. HS2 I believe is a great project, it will increase | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
capacity or congested railways, filled with passengers and freight. | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
It will improve connections between the biggest cities in the regions, | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
generate jobs and skills in economic growth and help us to Billy Connolly | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
that works right across the country. Even if you never travelled by train | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
you stand to benefit from fewer lorries on the road, from the | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
thousands of local jobs and apprenticeships that can be created | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
25,000 private-sector jobs just to 25,000 private-sector jobs just to | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
build a railway and 3000 to operate it wanted opens. It has been | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
estimated that there will be 100,000 new jobs created by HS2, 70% of | :07:55. | :08:02. | |
which will be outside London. Of course the rich to South Yorkshire | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
is not yet decided. The honourable gentleman asked is the medal while | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
options still open? It is. We have not made a decision. We are | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
consulting on this matter and consulting until that closes, which | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
is on mastermind. Then we will be reviewing submissions before making | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
any final decisions. The original 2013 consultation proposed serving | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
South Yorkshire with the route along the writer Valley and a new HS2 | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
station about six commenters from the Sheffield city centre. Since | :08:40. | :08:41. | |
consultation the opinion of local consultation the opinion of local | :08:42. | :08:43. | |
people about the best location has been divided. That is a fairly clear | :08:44. | :08:51. | |
understatement. This has made a decision about how HS2 can best | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
serve the region very challenging and the fact is that Mac and the | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
fact is rounding the decision are balanced. I have met with colleagues | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
and residents from South Yorkshire and will continue to do so. Since | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
that time the happy new developments since 2013 including the northern | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
powerhouse real for fast and frequent services in city centres | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
across the North. In light of these developments and the feedback | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
received in response to the 2013 consultation HS2 Ltd continues to | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
consider a range of options in as to how HS2 can best serve South | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
integrity of its service for a integrity of its service for a | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
larger markets across the North of England. As a result of this work | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
David Higgins recommended the main north-south road should follow a | :09:38. | :09:38. | |
more easterly alignment. There are more easterly alignment. There are | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
some 70 Congo between Derbyshire and West Yorkshire which we refer to as | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
the enemy team route. A main point for colour matter which could be | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
built off the HS2 mainline. Enabling HS2 trains to run into the city | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
centre along the existing network. The honourable gentleman mentioned | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
the line that has been indeed considered but it has also been | :10:08. | :10:09. | |
considered not suitable for high-speed trains, the line is | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
within a flood plain and would need to be elevated through a viaduct. We | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
would have to divert the existing uses of that line into other new | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
facilities so it has indeed been considered. As I say, no final | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
decision... I will. This is vital to our meeting that he will have later | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
with the Secretary of State for Transport. He said that the wash | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
line could not be considered will not be considered. The truth is that | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
it goes to Taunton the HS2 and then it goes to Taunton the HS2 and | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
proceeds to Meadowhall. Under the proceeds to Meadowhall. Under | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
present arrangements there would be present arrangements there would be | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
the spare line that would go through Newton and clean out at least 30 | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
houses. Thus the honourable gentleman realise what he is saying? | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
That he thinks that South Yorkshire can be dealt with but Newton will | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
demolished surely because they do demolished surely because they do | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
not have the wherewithal to deal with that wash line which has | :11:21. | :11:28. | |
traffic on it now? What I'm saying is that the wash line has been | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
considered but a decision has not been made. We are reviewing all of | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
the options which has been made clear. This consultation is a live | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
consultation and will be running through until the 9th of March. We | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
will come on to talk about Newton in just a moment. The approach that has | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
been put forward by Sir David Higgins would allow trains to serve | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
Chesterfield directly and there would be further benefits to | :12:02. | :12:03. | |
neighbouring parts of Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. Sir David also | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
identified in his report the potential to create a connection | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
back onto the HS2 mainline broth of Sheffield, basically creating | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
therefore he looked rather than a spur to serve the city to enable | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
services stopping at Sheffield Midland to stop at destinations | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
further north. We propose any team that has additional benefits and | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
that it affects far fewer properties and generates less noise and | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
less congested, avoiding businesses less congested, avoiding businesses | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
and the risk from the legacy of mining. The honourable death and has | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
from his constituency -- expressing from his constituency -- expressing | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
their concern about the impact of this new route on communities. Today | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
in this debate he has obviously highlighted the issues regarding the | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
Newton community. Members of the committee of concerns about the | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
roads and property values and roads and property values and | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
condensation screen -- conversation schemes. He raised the issue is | :13:04. | :13:12. | |
transport questions today and it is important to meet with local | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
residents. I have met with many have saw as the Secretary of State and he | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
will continue to do so. This government considers it | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
important to listen to the concerns of residents about the proposed HS2 | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
wrote which is why HS2 Ltd has engaged closely and continues to | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
engage with the people of South Yorkshire to understand the | :13:34. | :13:34. | |
concerns. The current phase to be concerns. The current phase to be | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
rude refinement consultation is addressing issues directly raised by | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
local residents that includes the location of the pose, where to put | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
viaducts, infrastructure property impact. We have seen from other | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
stages in the development of this project that as the consultations | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
have taken place the refinements of them followed so these are genuine | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
open consultations and changes are being made. The consultation | :14:05. | :14:14. | |
exercise as information events along the route, and residents can get | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
information on the project. These events have been widely attended. We | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
have at engineers and bimetal consultants, and property experts | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
attending. The entire HS2 project has benefited from engagement with | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
the committees along the line of the commutes I hope I can assure the | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
honourable gentleman in the house that the government and HS2 Ltd are | :14:36. | :14:44. | |
listing. Will be labelled and give way? It is | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
not a question of listening? The minister does not understand that | :14:51. | :14:52. | |
this small village of Newton is going to be decimated as a result of | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
Higgins making the decision. I want to know whether there will not only | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
be consultations but has the minister got the power to sack | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
Higgins for coming up with this preposterous idea of a brand swine | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
resulting in Newton being wrecked as a result of that? I will not agree | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
that people should be sacked for coming up with ideas. That is | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
clearly not a sensible way forward in any kind of policy development so | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
we were a agree on that point. I am aware of how challenging this is the | :15:32. | :15:33. | |
communities along the line of the rich. That is why I have met with | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
them, my colleagues have met with them and we wish to emphasise that | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
we do recognise and empathise with the difficult decisions they find | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
themselves in. We're looking at five residential properties in the | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
directorate of the Newton and I further seven properties have | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
potential. We have tried to design potential. We have tried to design | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
the HS2 reawaken eyes the effects of -- minimise the effects on people | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
across the road but it is impossible to build such a large piece of | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
infrastructure without an impact. The construction and operation of | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
any major structure project has the potential to cause substantial | :16:17. | :16:18. | |
changes to the surrounding neighbourhoods and environments and | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
it is also the impact of the line in construction, such as the dust, | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
construction phase. We are acutely construction phase. We are acutely | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
aware of this and whatever we... In one moment I will indeed. Whenever | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
properties are being considered I am acutely aware that we're not just | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
dealing with a financial investment, people invest more than money in | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
treating a home and this is not something we would take away from | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
anyone like this I have also the theory in respect of the communities | :16:52. | :16:52. | |
along the line of the road. I thank along the line of the road. I thank | :16:53. | :17:02. | |
the Minister forbiddingly. Have constituents who have found | :17:03. | :17:04. | |
accommodation does not cover them so they will lose the value of their | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
homes but the question really is this, what discussions has he had | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
with the select committee on high-speed rail? Has he taken on | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
board any suggestions? That he had any discussions about this? MS with | :17:16. | :17:23. | |
many colleagues and included the members of the site committee on it | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
so I have indeed done so. Let me address a little bit about some of | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
the work that HS2 is doing in lazy with communities. We recognise fully | :17:34. | :17:42. | |
with the cover cases people are facing at the very challenging. The | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
plate, the concern and anxiety, Philip Sanders. HS2 Ltd is fully | :17:47. | :17:54. | |
committed to working with everyone to drop a comment about the job | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
package of measures to address local impact in construction. Construction | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
activity would be included in that. They provided information on the | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
plans to mitigate noise and other environmental issues. This | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
information is all available on the HS2 Ltd website. Examples of | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
mitigation could be the various environmental interventions, trees, | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
hedgerows, Franks -- shrubs, performs etc. HS2 has also provided | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
on property con -- compensation on property con -- compensation | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
schemes for residents. We have written to directly affected | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
residents to inform them of the specific impact on the property, and | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
the options available to them. Options include the need to sell | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
are required to demonstrate they are required to demonstrate they | :18:41. | :18:42. | |
have a compelling reason to sell the property. And at the unable to do so | :18:43. | :18:52. | |
or must is likely substantially reduced price. If that is accepted | :18:53. | :18:59. | |
then the government will buy the property at the full on bloated | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
market value. HS2 I recognise is a project that has divided opinion but | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
it has been through this house and been recognised to go forward with | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
huge majorities, and the same in other place. We have run in HS2 the | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
largest public consultation in British government history. | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
Throughout the lifetime of the scheme we have sought to listen to | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
communities and take on board the comments and concerns at every | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
stage. That will continue. It will continue with the honourable | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
gentleman in the residents that he represents. HS2 is already having an | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
impact. Local authorities and Empress -- enterprise partnerships | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
are giving up for HS2 under and growth strategies, supported by the | :19:45. | :19:45. | |
UK Government to maximise the UK Government to maximise the | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
benefits of HS2 in the areas. Regions can start to benefit from | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
HS2 long before it is built simply by starting to work on their | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
long-term plans for regeneration and development to bring in investment | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
and businesses. I have met with council leaders in Birmingham and | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
Manchester and Leeds at all have highlighted how this will be a | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
fantastic list for the cities and regions and opportunities will flow | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
from it. HS2 is working with businesses across the UK including | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
many small and medium-sized firms to ensure they are well prepared to bid | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
for contracts to reap the benefits. We have had a supply road show, I | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
spoke at an event in Aberdeen. You could argue a long way from the line | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
of route. There are many businesses in that area that have high levels | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
of skills in steel platform construction and other engineering | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
matters and we wanted to see this as a project from the UK for the UK and | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
we want you to participate. HS2 is going ahead. It has heard | :20:51. | :21:03. | |
Royal assent just today. We have to recognise that the next questions | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
are how we minimise disruption during the build, maximise the | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
opportunities it presents, whilst working hard to resolving | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
outstanding questions and treat all residents affected with the dignity, | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
transparency and courtesy they demand. It is not simply about | :21:19. | :21:27. | |
improving transport. HS2 is about building a much better | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
infrastructure network across the country, and to create from that an | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
economic legacy fit for future generations. The question is that | :21:34. | :21:44. | |
this House do now adjourn. Order, order. | :21:45. | :21:48. |