Browse content similar to 20/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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we are working with the regional schools commission to make sure they | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
will be provision of those who want to study without having to leave the | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
borough. We must now move on. Before I called the honourable gentleman, | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
the member for Denton and Redditch to ask his urgent question, I would | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
emphasise to the house that this question relates to issues | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
highlighted by the appointment of the Right Honourable gentleman a | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
member of Tatton to the editorship of the London Evening Standard for | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
the operation of the advisory committee on business appointments | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
and the ministerial code. It is not, repeat not, about the conduct of the | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
right Honourable member and I will not countenance supplementary | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
questions which are critical of the conduct of the Right Honourable | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
member. Order. As the house will be aware, criticisms of the conduct of | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
honourable land right honourable members of this house may be made | :00:58. | :01:05. | |
only one substantive motions. Urgent question, Mr Andrew Gwynne. Thank | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
you. To ask the Prime Minister if she will make a statement on the | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
operation of the advisory committee on business appointments and the | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
ministerial code in light of the appointment of the Right Honourable | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
member for Tatton to the editorship of the London Evening Standard. | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
Minister Ben Gummer. , Mr Speaker, I am very grateful indeed. For | :01:31. | :01:47. | |
bringing attention to the house. The ministerial code requires that | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
former ministers must seek advice from the independent advisory | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
committee about any appointments or employment they wish to take up | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
within two' years of leaving office. Might Honourable friend left his | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
role in government in July last year. Information on advice given to | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
him regarding previous appointment has been published on the committee | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
website. I understand is particular role mentioned was received by the | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
committee on March 13 and is currently being considered. When the | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
committee has fully consider this application it will provide its | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
advice to my right honourable friend. Until this advice is made | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
public that is confidential process although no doubt a matter of | :02:33. | :02:41. | |
significant interest to this house. Thank you Mr Speaker and I would | :02:42. | :02:43. | |
like to thank you first before granting this urgent question and I | :02:44. | :02:54. | |
will seek to adhere to your wish not to refer to the right honourable | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
member. This is a matter of great concern as we have seen in the media | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
of the weekend. It was addressed to the Prime Minister not with respect | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
to the minister but I do appreciate his commitment to ensuring that more | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
is done in future to prevent a repeat of the most recent incident. | :03:16. | :03:30. | |
The current rules around business appointments were established to the | :03:31. | :03:32. | |
suspicion that the decisions and statements of serving ministers | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
might be influenced by the hope of future rewards in the form of a job | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
offer or other monetary gains. This regarding these rules deeply | :03:42. | :03:49. | |
undermines public trust in the democratic process and the trust of | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
the work of the member of Parliament and this house itself. It does a | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
disservice to those members that respect the trust praised them by | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
their constituents who spend every hour of their day fighting for their | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
constituents interests. And who ensure that proper attention to the | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
representative role of an MP is given. As a vocation to public | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
service should require. In 2012 and enquiry into the Cobra suggested it | :04:23. | :04:34. | |
should be replaced but the government provided assurances that | :04:35. | :04:36. | |
the current system and the ministerial code was robust enough | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
to prevent behaviour or actions that may add worse bring this house into | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
this weird or further the tragic low standing this profession is sadly | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
held on. Yet I am forced here to date to ask the government again how | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
they will address another case and to give assurances that the current | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
system has not provided yet another opportunity for a conflict of | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
interests to be exploited. To hold on outside interest is perhaps | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
defensible but to hold several time consuming outside commitments that | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
have a deep overlap with the political role of what is best to be | :05:21. | :05:30. | |
a full-time commitment is impossible to defend. Will the Minister confirm | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
what action the government intends to take against ex-ministers who | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
appeared to be in breach of the ministerial code on their failure to | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
seek advice from Acoba before accepting an appointment? And will | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
he consider his government response to the 2012 review into Acoba and | :05:49. | :05:57. | |
provide a stronger system, able to command the confidence of this house | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
and the public because it is what we deserve. I think the honourable | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
gentleman and I have to say I can see why he took this excuse to drag | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
himself away from the Shadow Cabinet awayday... Which I can imagine. I | :06:12. | :06:26. | |
know he will be missing with every single cell in his body and that is | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
why I will give him the short answer he can return as quickly as | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
possible. As the honourable gentleman has rightly said, much has | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
already been done in this important area. The Prime Minister revised the | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
ministerial code when she took office. It is a matter of the | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
concern to her and that is why for the first time the ministerial code | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
of p to it the advice to ministers on leaving office about seeking the | :06:58. | :07:06. | |
advice and assurances or approbation and indeed sense of Acoba: the | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
independent advisory committee on business appointments. But the | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
important thing to say about that process is that it is indeed | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
independent. And I hope he will not mind there for if I do not make any | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
comment about this particular case because they are considering it and | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
it would be wrong for me to prejudice their decision to say one | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
way or another what my view was or what the government view was. Not | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
that we have a view until we have received the independent advice from | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
the independent committee. He makes a broader point about employment | :07:38. | :07:45. | |
outside this house and about outside interest. He will know that his | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
colleagues and also members on this side of the house sitting in the | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
committee for standards in Public life will be looking at this matter | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
again. It is a matter of ongoing concern to the public widely, it has | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
been for many years, and it is something this house will have to | :08:02. | :08:03. | |
grapple with in the years ahead which is why I welcome the committee | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
looking at it again. And I have no doubt this is something that will | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
return to the house at a later point. But the honourable gentleman | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
makes a wider point about vocation and it is one I would like to | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
address directly. It is a very important matter. Members in this | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
house on both sides, no matter whether in opposition or on the | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
government benches, in my expense and I'm sure in his as well, come to | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
this place almost all of them because they believe in public | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
service. And that should inform their decisions, not just about | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
their own interest but about the wider interests of democracy and the | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
representative system that we seek to represent. And I'm sure that all | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
members in the way that they deport themselves today in this discussion | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
will bear that in mind. Mr Speaker... When I heard that this | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
urgent question had been granted I thought it was important to be here. | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
Although unfortunately we have missed the deadline for the Evening | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
Standard. In my view, Mr Speaker, this Parliament is enhanced when we | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
have people of different experience take part in our robust debate and | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
when people who have held senior ministerial office continued to | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
contribute to the decisions we have to make. But I will listen to what | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
my colleagues have to say in this debate. I'm interested to hear. | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
I am not sure there is much more I should or could add to my right | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
honourable friend's points. International happiness today, and | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
we can see some people that are pretty happy... | :09:50. | :09:58. | |
LAUGHTER. But, it does strike me that we have heard it all when we | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
get a minister standing up to give a response to a perfectly reasonable | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
and sensible question and make a joke about it, when the Honourable | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
member thinks it's a matter of mere amusement. You cannot be caught | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
treating the House and the people as a load of... This is disgraceful and | :10:20. | :10:27. | |
many to know what the government is good to do about it. This morning, | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
as with all mornings I had the pleasure of reading assessments do's | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
column in the daily record and all I would say is that there is a | :10:38. | :10:39. | |
tradition in this House of contributing to newspapers, it is | :10:40. | :10:46. | |
important... LAUGHTER And elsewhere, even in the | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
assembly in Hollywood. What it is important to remember in this is it | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
is not what the Speaker has said of the particulars but in the | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
generality of whether members should have interests or employment outside | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
of this House. That is why I'm glad that the committee is looking about | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
in detail and no doubt members across the House will wish to | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
consider the recommendations in dude caught. I draw the House tonight | :11:15. | :11:25. | |
attention... The Minister will be aware that Acoba, sponsored by the | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
Cabinet office is with in the remit of the public administration and | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
constitutional affairs committee of which I am a member, and the | :11:34. | :11:41. | |
chairman is abroad. Our committee has an enquiry into the role of | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
Acoba which is remaining open and on which which we have not reported and | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
our enquiry will take into account these new requirements and we will | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
consider what further efforts to take. Will the Minister agree that | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
it is important that the relevant committees of this House are able to | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
carry out the remit in a copper fashion and make recommendations | :12:04. | :12:11. | |
East on evidence? I completely agree with her and she is right to remind | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
the House that there is an enquiry at the moment and we will look with | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
interest on the enquiry. My honourable friend has already | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
contributed to that enquiry and is required will make further | :12:26. | :12:27. | |
contribution should the enquiry wish. Could I returned the Minister | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
to fill issue of ministerial code, and ask whether he thinks there is | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
any need for reform of the code or for enforcement of the code and if | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
so what would be the mechanism for doing that? The ministerial code | :12:45. | :12:52. | |
determines how ministers should behave and that is serving | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
ministers, it does not have a direct impact on ex-ministers, the reason | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
she will understand. What it does do is to advise ex-ministers of their | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
responsibilities should they leave their position and has been | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
toughened up in that respect in the last few months before this current | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
discussion happen. It is important that the committee, the advisory | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
committee, gives its recommendations before we move on to broader matters | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
of reform, because at the moment the questions are predicated on an | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
answer that I would not like to predetermine. | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
I draw the House's attention to my entry. In considering these matters, | :13:32. | :13:39. | |
Mr Speaker, is it not extremely important that the House always | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
seeks to attract the widest possible cross-section, including retaining | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
the services of those who have held high office? Is it not a matter of | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
regret that the first time, I think in my 30 years on enough in this | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
House, there is no former Prime Minister in either of the two Houses | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
of Parliament? That is the view that this House has traditionally taken, | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
and it is for this House, not the government on its own, to make a | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
decision in the long term about the balance is wishes to have | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
traditionally and to this point this House is determined that it is right | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
from members of Parliament to have the opportunity of having a rider | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
interact. -- a wider. It is not the meat to say at this point. It is | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
important that whatever we are discussing at this juncture... In | :14:34. | :14:42. | |
1523, Cardinal Wolsey became the Bishop of Durham, he never visited | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
his diocese, what steps is the Minister going to take to make sure | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
the honourable members do not stop behaving like medieval clerics | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
rather than modern politicians? Thomas Wolsey Lee was a proud boy of | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
Ipswich and was proud to go back as often as he could. I have no | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
complaints about Thomas Wall Street. I cannot speak for his constituents | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
all for his parishioners. What I can say is that it will be for all of | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
our constituencies in 2022 judged the means and managing of what we | :15:18. | :15:25. | |
discharge our... And it is for us to get electric at this point and put | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
ourselves up for re-election on that basis. Is my right honourable friend | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
able to tell the House, is he aware that the Cabinet office received | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
representations from Her Majesty's opposition about the ink | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
compatibility with the role of Chancellor of the extractor... | :15:47. | :15:56. | |
LAUGHTER I endeavour in everything I do to be as assiduous as my | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
predecessor in my ministerial responsibilities as of yet I have | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
not been able to undercut anything of the kind he suggests. The context | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
of potential overspending in key marginal seats, and at the same time | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
concerns about appointments of MPs in very safe seats, does this not | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
show the stark difference between the parties and candidates' approach | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
to marginal seats and safe seats and show there is a real problem of | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
representations and an issue with first past the post as a system? | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
This is a niche interest the Liberal Democrats all of whom have marginal | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
seats, I know. But it is important to say that, what I do find | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
extraordinary about that question is that there are members on both sides | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
of this House who have very safe seats who are incredibly assiduous | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
in the way the intent of their constituents, members sitting | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
opposite, members behind me who have 60s who are assiduous and it is | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
wrong to Castor Spurgeon is unknown. -- he'll have safe seats. Can I | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
commend the Minister his judicious handling of this question and can I | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
also underlined the importance to all abuzz for respecting | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
constitutional principles, is it not the case that is an independent body | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
and this needs to be respected. Do not believe in a free pass and | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
therefore that proprietors should have the right to appoint who they | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
believe is right to be editor without the executive of anybody | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
else interfering in that decision and is it not as the case that | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
whoever represents the constituencies should be up to its | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
voters not to be position to decree? As ever, my right honourable friend | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
is very good at making clear the liberties that underpin our | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
democracy into often we forget. Those of those who were here at the | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
time remember how difficult it was to restore the reputation of this | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
House after the expenses scandal. Is there therefore not a wider issue | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
here, about the way in which the public look upon what they would | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
describe as the "Political class", and the feeling justified or | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
otherwise that we are all greedy and on the make, we have got to be | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
careful we are not all part of the Saint Roch. The honourable gentleman | :18:19. | :18:28. | |
was in this House where in three... I have to say that he will know of | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
previous examples where this has happened. I do think it is important | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
that we actually judge this situation in the context of whether | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
we think that members of Parliament should have employment outside. | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
There are arguments on both side and it is important that we do not | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
reduce this to an ad hominem attack which would create buried at policy. | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
May I gently say to the honourable member that it has never been | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
suggested that during the five or six weeks that he was in Copeland as | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
Labour Party organiser for the campaign, nobody ever suggested that | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
he abandoned or did anything wrong by way of his constituents? Mr | :19:11. | :19:19. | |
Speaker, across this House members of all parties worked extremely hard | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
and especially when you have the ultimate second job as a minister, | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
as the Secretary of State, as Chancellor of the Exchequer and also | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
as a Prime Minister, would my right honourable friend agree with that | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
anyone who does any of the work in addition to their duties as a member | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
of Parliament actually brings huge amounts of experience into this | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
chamber that makes all abuzz represent everyone in this country | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
even better and would he also agree with me that the ultimate judge on | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
this are the constituents who at the ballot box computers out of the do | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
not like what we do. I thank my right honourable friend and she is | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
right to say that ultimately the judge of our behaviour and | :20:12. | :20:13. | |
performance would be constituents. There are very strong arguments to | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
allow people to have outside influences and the other way but | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
they need to be reconciled with more time and more thought than would be | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
deserved at an urgent question. I repeat my earlier point that I | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
really do believe that all abuzz duty not just to our own interests | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
women make these decisions actually to the wider reputation of our | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
democracy. -- that all of us have a duty not just to our own interests. | :20:45. | :20:55. | |
At risk of upsetting the new editor of my city's newspaper, I think | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
there is an air of complete unreality of some of the exchanges | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
this afternoon. The trust of the public in both politicians and media | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
has never been so low. What it do to the trust of the public in | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
politicians with the idea that people could have a number of roles | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
including editing in newspaper, what is it deeper the reputation of media | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
in a near our fake news to have someone editing a newspaper who has | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
no qualifications to do so? And I would ask the Minister, in relation | :21:28. | :21:35. | |
to the question of the honourable member for whole North about | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
apprenticeship bonding I know that I want a printed gene bonding in | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
London and so would be editor of my local newspaper, but what would the | :21:45. | :21:46. | |
right honourable member Bottas and think? We cannot ask ministers to | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
speculate about what individual right honourable member 's would | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
think. What ever the conflict may be I am the determinant of what is an | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
orderly question and I would ask the honourable gentleman to graciously | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
accept that I'm trying to do the right thing in balancing different | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
considerations, but we must adhere to order. The Minister is a text | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
just fell out and he will answer in a way that is orderly and not in a | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
way that isn't, I know. I thank the honourable gentleman, he is incisive | :22:18. | :22:24. | |
in a way yes his question and I agree with him that we have a | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
challenge, all abuzz in raising the reputation of our democratic | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
institutions. That all of ours. That would not be served by a minister of | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
the Crown coming to the dispatch box on Monday to give a new policy | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
announcement just to suit the particular agenda of the day. It is | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
a matter for the House to come to a wider consideration of whether they | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
think it is right or wrong people to have outside interests, I think | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
there are arguments on both sides. In the meantime, all need to | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
consider our individual duties to the wider body politic in the way | :23:01. | :23:10. | |
that we behave. But he has a justified reputation for his | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
devotion and assiduous work that he was on his ministerial duties, as it | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
diminished in anyway his ability to serve his constituents? It has not, | :23:20. | :23:30. | |
in any way at all. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Will the Minister please | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
referred to the advisory committee, the dilemma that exists when a | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
former minister is given a particular appointment on the basis | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
of his geographical location, but then subsequently secures a further | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
appointment which flatly contradicts the interest that he was meant to | :23:50. | :23:57. | |
serve but that previous appointment? Pana London standard editor look | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
after the Northern Powerhouse? Haase can a. That is not for me to make | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
that determination it is but the independent advisory committee and | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
they will make a recommendation to my right honourable friend. I know | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
he wants me to say something controversial, but it would be wrong | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
to undermine the process which is going through at the moment in the | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
committee and it would be wrong for me to prejudice that decision by | :24:24. | :24:24. | |
saying one thing or the other. Many people in this House have | :24:25. | :24:35. | |
second jobs, yours is speak of this House, and you do it assiduously | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
while being able to serve your constituents. Could the Minister | :24:40. | :24:49. | |
please help me to understand which jobs would be considered acceptable | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
by the government or by another statutory body? Many people write | :24:54. | :25:01. | |
books, own land and property. Should they therefore sell into monastic | :25:02. | :25:11. | |
simplicity and become a political class or should they represent the | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
economy and people of this country by maintaining an intact body of | :25:17. | :25:25. | |
effort with other people? I congratulate... We must have a fair | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
hearing to members on both sides and to the Minister. Earlier members | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
were moaning that the Minister needed to speak up a bit. The | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
Minister is immensely courteous. The House should be courteous to the | :25:43. | :25:50. | |
Minister. My congratulations to my honourable friend the moving himself | :25:51. | :25:57. | |
up and speaking order of the debate. We might need an extra bottle of | :25:58. | :26:07. | |
water. Thank you. Welcome to the Public Accounts Committee. We are | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
here to look at Ambulance Services on the back of a study done by the | :26:14. | :26:22. | |
National Audit Office which... It is one this House is right to discuss, | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
should do so with time and the dignity, and I would suggest it is | :26:28. | :26:37. | |
not the right place to do it now. Is the Minister aware that these are | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
roughly the same kind of arguments emanating from both sides of the | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
House as they were 40 years ago when we attempted to set up the register? | :26:47. | :26:53. | |
It has not changed except, over the years, there has been a desire by | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
the majority members to ensure that the register and the duties of MPs | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
are strengthened. The real question to be answered now, how can a | :27:06. | :27:14. | |
full-time politician be a full-time editor of the daily newspaper? It is | :27:15. | :27:23. | |
one of the many reasons why Ed I admire the honourable gentleman. He | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
walked out of the pit, stricter displays, and gave an experience to | :27:29. | :27:30. | |
the House of Commons that few people on both benches would be able to | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
provide. It is of enormous rally to this House. I am not in a position | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
to make a judgment that he invites me to make. I would ask that the | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
committee on business interests provide the Independent report first | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
before we judge this particular incident and that he contributes his | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
thoughts to the wider considerations. I believe that there | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
are strong arguments in his favour and strong arguments on the other | :28:00. | :28:01. | |
side and they should be discussed. As my right honourable friend has | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
said, there is a fine balance between those who have outside | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
interests and those who do not. I believe that this House is enriched | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
by those who have outside interests. And I further believe that they do | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
not enhance this House. That may I say to the honourable member, a | :28:23. | :28:30. | |
Labour Party swearword when he talks with his faux outrage? Can I remind | :28:31. | :28:31. | |
him of Tony Blair? Those two words on the one likely to | :28:32. | :28:49. | |
anger the benches opposite the members on our own site. I think it | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
is very difficult to frame this debate by looking at particular | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
examples because we have to look at the generality. There are 650 MPs. | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
Many have different interests outside. Some are in professions and | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
summoned the charitable sector. When we go down this road, we will have | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
to judge which things we judge to be more valuable than others. That is a | :29:14. | :29:23. | |
very difficult path to travel down. Tomorrow, I have meetings in this | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
place from 8:30am until 8:30pm, including two select committees, and | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
we have several ex-ministers chairing committees and doing an | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
excellent job. Is that not where the expertise should be directed, to | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
scrutinising the work of the Executive and chewing a job here and | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
not somewhere else? I am sure that my right honourable friend will | :29:49. | :29:50. | |
continue to contribute to this House. I have got no doubt that he | :29:51. | :29:57. | |
will continue to do so over the months ahead. It is right we all | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
contribute in our own ways, the way we best discharge our talents, and I | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
would hope that would be the same for all MPs. The honourable member | :30:08. | :30:16. | |
for Tatton's honourable friends have all jumped to his defence and used | :30:17. | :30:24. | |
the argument that this interest will help the member state in Parliament. | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
It quite clearly is not contributing to the House. The Minister also says | :30:30. | :30:37. | |
that people standing in the face for re-election but unfortunately, | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
you've got safe seats with voters do not have a choice, so will the | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
government look at this? The former leader of the honourable gentleman's | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
party writes a column for a newspaper. I am not sure... I am not | :30:54. | :31:01. | |
saying that is right or wrong. The reaction suggests they may feel | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
guilty about putting the question. The point is, this is not an easy or | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
binary decision to come to because when is it to March, one, two, five? | :31:11. | :31:18. | |
This is a decision that the House should come to after a long and | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
careful thought and it would be good if people actually expressed in | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
those terms rather than expressing outrage when indeed, on their own | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
side, they have their own members who have outside interests. Given | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
some of the contributions for the benches opposite, it is a shame the | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
honourable member does not still dish up ministerial jobs because a | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
few of them would deserve that. But this issue of public concern is very | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
widespread and disaffection with the political process, I would say, is | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
even more acute in the North of England. What am I to say to my | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
constituents who feel time again that, despite all the talk of the | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
Northern Powerhouse, we had done the London? I share her concern. It is | :32:10. | :32:18. | |
one that together we will have to rebuild. Genuinely, if we conduct | :32:19. | :32:26. | |
politics in a way which is disrespectful in order to get the | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
day's headlines the next day, we will only continue to undermine the | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
politics that we all seek to serve. That is why we need to understand | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
this calmly, dispassionately and make sure we come to the right | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
decision. That is why we are devolving power to Manchester, | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
precisely so we can get that kind of representation she is calling for an | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
as conservatives we are keen to see that devolution happen, and I hope | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
she is happy with that result when it finally comes to pass over the | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
next few months. The minister seize this moment to congratulate all | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
those colleagues on all sides of the House who serve as reservists and | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
practices doctors and nurses? Does this not illustrate the opposition | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
is more concerned with the nature of the employment rather than the | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
employment itself? My honourable friend, my neighbour, is a | :33:26. | :33:34. | |
practising doctor. My honourable friend is a practising nurse. These | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
are two people who bring particular expertise and skills to our chamber, | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
which would not otherwise be there. There are good reasons and arguments | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
for that but there are reasons and arguments to the country. They are | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
balanced and we need to have that discussion and come to a conclusion | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
because, whatever conclusion we come will have profound implications for | :33:55. | :34:02. | |
the way our democracy functions. I do not own any broad rolling acres, | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
sadly. But I do have some skin in the game is the author of the red | :34:09. | :34:16. | |
column entitled pound notes. However, I am concerned, where as I | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
would not wish to attack anybody in this House nor would I be clement is | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
the former leader of my party, I feel the Minister should perhaps | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
have a quiet word with one of his colleagues about the ministerial | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
code and the actual job that Members of Parliament are doing. 20% of the | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
work comes into my office probably should not be done by an MP, so can | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
we get some good out of this sorry business and look at first | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
principles, go back to basics? I agree with much of what the | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
honourable gentleman has said and as ever he speaks a great deal of | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
sense. And a former age, he would've been granted many thousands of acres | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
just for making the point. I declare an interest as a former NCT J | :35:01. | :35:10. | |
qualified journalist and a member of the National Union of Journalists, | :35:11. | :35:12. | |
which I hope the right honourable member of Tampa and will join in | :35:13. | :35:19. | |
short course. Much has been made of the potential political conflict of | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
interest but would they also like to address potential commercial | :35:24. | :35:25. | |
conflicts of interest, especially given the Treasury is one of the | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
biggest spenders and newspaper advertising? Would he published | :35:29. | :35:37. | |
details of that expenditure? I remember the honourable gentleman's | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
contributions to BBC Look East with interest. He is right to say the | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
government spends money on newspaper advertising. It does so | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
independently and as arranged by civil servants. Indeed, a colleague | :35:50. | :35:56. | |
of his asked a Parliamentary question about the nature of the | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
spend of the last few years and I provided the answer, which is in the | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
library. When the former Chancellor Thomas does a surplus in 2020, none | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
of us were expecting him to go about it quite in this manner, but I am | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
concerned that the right honourable member maybe overstretching himself. | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
Will it take account of the European working Time regulations in ensuring | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
he is not damaging women's health by working excessive hours? I am not | :36:26. | :36:34. | |
sure any of us complies faithfully to the European working Time | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
directive. My right honourable friend was an industrious man as | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer. No doubt he will continue to be | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
industrious in whatever form he wishes to take. The Minister said | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
earlier that day by the rumble member had not received the advice | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
was stopped Cani confirm that honourable and right Honourable | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
members are not in breach of the rules by announcing positions until | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
they have received advice? Cani also confirmed they have no teeth to | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
enforce rules that have been breached? It is the act to make | :37:09. | :37:16. | |
recommendations and conditions, and they often enforce conditions. In | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
the period leading up to 2010 and just after, of the 43 ministers who | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
made applications to take outside employment, only 12 were allowed to | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
do so without conditions. They are able to provide conditions. It is | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
for them to judge specifically in this case had they feel the process | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
has been undertaken. They will take into account all the evidence and | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
will publish that on the Internet very soon and honourable lady will | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
be of the seared, as will everyone else. Many people will think that | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
parliamentarians, before the end of this place, should have sufficient | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
life experience. But does the Minister believe they should be an | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
upper limit on the number of outside jobs that MPs are allowed to take? | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
That is something the committee is thinking about and it is entirely | :38:06. | :38:12. | |
right that the House should do so. I want to point out to her that one of | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
the reasons I believe we are in this situation the colleagues of hers and | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
mine have identified, politicians being held in low esteem, is the | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
culture that grew up over the 15 years of immediate answers to | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
stories in the press just in order for the government to show that it | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
was ahead of some media game. That's not the way to get faith and | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
politics or trust in politicians. We need to be considerate and | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
deliberative and think carefully about the problems in front of us, | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
including members of this House who should discuss this dispassionately | :38:53. | :38:54. | |
and calmly and with dignity in the weeks and months ahead. | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
I've only got one job, representing the people of the City of Chester. | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
Can the Minister confirm or comment on the fact that... Should not be | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
accepted formally or announced until they have announced the conditions | :39:16. | :39:23. | |
of that job. I think we'll look at this particular case and make their | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
judgment on it and the process that's happened independently. I | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
think he won't mind if I don't make a point at this stage because it | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
will prejudice what they say. Let's see what they say and we will bend | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
no doubt want to return to the matter, because this house will | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
continue to be interested in it. Thank you. Point of order. Through | :39:40. | :39:47. | |
you Mr Speaker, may I thank the opposition for rating this point. I | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
think they've done a tremendous job in uniting this side of our house | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
behind our right honourable friend the member for Tatham. The | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
honourable gentleman knows perfectly well that is not a point of order, | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
but he's made his own point in his own way and it is on the record. And | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
we'll leave it there. Order. In a moment I shall call Alison Pulis to | :40:12. | :40:22. | |
make and application for leave to propose a debate on an important | :40:23. | :40:30. | |
matter... In a moment I will call if the honourable gentleman would be | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
kind enough to do me the courtesy... I will call Alison to make an | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
application for leave to propose a debate on a specific and important | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
matter that should have urgent consideration under standing order | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
number 24. The honourable member has up to three minutes in which to make | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
such an application. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I seek to propose how | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
should debate an important matter that should have urgent | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
consideration, the introduction of the sex exemption in terms of tax | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
credits, which I will refer to as the rape clause. Since it was | :41:07. | :41:14. | |
proposed in the summer budget 2015I have pursued this matter | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
relentlessly. I have used every means available to me through | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
questions on debates on no fewer than 25 occasions in this house. The | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
Government should by now have had adequate time to either we find or | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
buy my preference abandoned this deeply flawed policy. The reason I | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
am calling for this debate is there are deep gaps which will leave | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
vulnerable women expose. The Government has sought to reassure me | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
many times that women making a claim under the rape clause will be | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
treated sensitively, that they can go through third-party professionals | :41:48. | :41:54. | |
like nurses or social workers. Answers to written Parliamentary | :41:55. | :41:56. | |
questions I have tabled an expose there has been no training, none, in | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
domestic violence or in the application of the policy to these | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
660,000 third-party professionals with the policy due to come into | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
force very soon on the 6th of April. This puts vulnerable women seeking | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
to make a claim presenting herself to a GP, nurse or social worker to | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
reveal her third child was conceived as a result of rape. For that | :42:19. | :42:27. | |
professional to establish this without training, what kind of | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
response can she expect to get Tristram Hunt the Government are | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
still saying today that they will bring forward guidance. When? I | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
remind houses policy goes live on the 6th of April, in the middle of | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
recess. How will we know, as parliamentarians, if the Government | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
has done what it says it will do? I have also had information shared | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
with meats by a member of HMRC staff who wishes to remain anonymous. This | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
member of staff told me the sensitive unit that will deal with | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
rape clause claims will not go live until the 6th of April. Until then | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
HMRC staff are crossing their fingers they don't get enquiries | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
from the public about a sensitive issue for which they have not been | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
trained. Utterly unacceptable. The Government has been dodging scrutiny | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
on this issue from the start, burying this at the back of the 2016 | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
budget. Being Fulston to hold a consultation they didn't want to | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
run, sneaking out the response to that consultation during Trump's | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
inauguration and laying statutory instrument three last week to avoid | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
debate in this house. I feel compelled to appeal to you, Mr | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
Speaker, to grant this emergency debate. Women who have faced the | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
worst trauma of their lives, being raped on becoming pregnant as a | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
result, the most serious and dangerous sexual assaults on being | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
forced to relive that trauma just to claim tax credits. It's a despicable | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
invasion of privacy. I think we owe it to these women and their children | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
to hold these ministers to account. Leave to propose a debate on a | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
matter that should have urgent consideration, the introduction of | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
the nonconsensual exemption in terms of tax credits. I've listened | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
carefully to the application from the honourable member but I'm not | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
did this matter is proper to be discussed under standing order | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
number 24. The standing order does not permit me to give my reasons to | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
the House. I shall therefore simply observe that a prayer has been | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
tabled against the regulations and I would hope and anticipate that the | :44:31. | :44:38. | |
usual channels will find time for it to be debated. | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
Order. The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day. | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
Citizens Courts Bill, second reading. I called the Secretary of | :44:51. | :45:01. | |
State for Justice, Liz Truss. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
Bill now be read a second time. This Bill makes the most significant | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
changes to the prisons act 1952 since it past 65 years ago. For the | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
first time it will be clear that the Government isn't just responsible | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
for housing prisoners, it will also be clear that a key purpose of | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
prisons is to reform prisoners and prepare them for their return to the | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
community. This means getting prisoners off drugs, into work and | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
improving their education whilst they are in prison. Together with | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
greater powers for governors, performance tables and sharper | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
inspections, more people will leave prisons preformed on this look cut | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
the 15 billion cost to society of reoffending that we all face every | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
year. I will give way to the honourable gentleman. | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
People want to be angry about prisoners and say it is all their | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
own fault but a large proportion of people in prison have suffered major | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
brain traumas through fights or various other different means. | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
Actually the support that is available in the wider community | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
through the health service can fully rehabilitate them and bring them | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
back into society but the support in prison is still very weak. Will the | :46:23. | :46:24. | |
Government be doing more to tackle that? | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
The honourable member is absolutely right, that many people in prison to | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
suffer from serious issues like the ones he raises. That's why we going | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
to give prison governors to commissioning powers over health | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
services in their prisons, so they can design around the needs of those | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
offenders, helping them get the treatment they need so they can live | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
a law for life once they leaves prison. This Bill will also usher in | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
a new era for our courts, modern sizing a process that remains | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
fundamentally unchanged from the Victorian era. -- modernising | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
process. Our reforms create a system fit for the 21st century. This will | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
provide better protection for vulnerable victims and witnesses, it | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
will improve access to justice for ordinary walking -- working people, | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
will be able to access the courts and a simpler and more efficient | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
way. It will also promote our reputation for global legal | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
excellence on the best place to do business. I will now talk through | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
the detail of the Bill but first I will give way to the honourable | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
gentleman. Can I say I welcome the access to | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
justice proposals contained in the Bill. I would urge her to discuss | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
with the devolved administrations, in particular Northern Ireland, | :47:44. | :47:45. | |
hopefully when we get a government up and running again, that the | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
process there will be rolled out to Northern Ireland that we can share | :47:50. | :47:52. | |
in the expertise and the expense of that system that you have put in | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
place. I thank the honourable member for | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
his point. I understand he's had a demonstration of our system and I | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
look forward to discussing it with him further, about how we can share | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
best practice. Prisons rightly punish those who break the law. But | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
they should be a place of safety and reform, where prisoners can turn | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
their lives around and lead a law for life outside prison. Sadly that | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
is not the case at the moment. The levels of violence in our prisons | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
are too high, as last week's shocking attack on the young officer | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
at Oak Hill shows and I'm sure the thoughts of all of those in this | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
house with him and his family at this very difficult time. | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
We also have very worrying levels of self harm and deaths in custody. The | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
prison safety and reform white paper which I launched in November, set | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
out a clear plan, combining immediate action to increase | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
staffing level and tracking drugs, drones and phones with radical | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
reforms to get offenders off drugs, into work and away from crime for | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
good. I will take some intervention in a minute once I've made a bit of | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
progress. Whilst there is much we can do and are doing operationally, | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
part one of this Bill addresses areas that require primary | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
legislation. First of all the Bill enshrines into law the purpose of | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
prison and it sets out the prisons must aim to Duque four things. First | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
they must protect the public, holding prisoners securely is a core | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
job at the prisons, protecting the public from the risk that offenders | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
pose an prisons must do all they can to prevent security failures. | :49:37. | :49:43. | |
Secondly, prisons must reform and rehabilitate offenders. They must | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
give them the opportunities to allow them to turn their back on crime, | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
which means tackling drug and alcohol addiction. It means tackling | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
the mental health issues. It means giving offenders opportunities to | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
work and get training and apprenticeships whilst there are in | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
prison and also to improve their English and maths and to maintain | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
family ties. I will give way to my honourable friend. | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
I am most grateful to my right honourable friend. May I say how | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
much I welcome this legislation, which seems to me to be going | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
exactly in the right direction, in terms of reforming prisons. But she | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
will also be aware that ultimately the ability to deliver these | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
programmes is going to be intimately dependent on reducing prison | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
overcrowding. Because without it, we've seen on many previous | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
occasions that however good the programmes, they found as the | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
prisons come under strain. Can she keep that in mind and is anything | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
she can tell the House in the course of the second reading of what | :50:43. | :50:44. | |
strategy she might have in mind to try and address that issue? | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
I thank my honourable friend for his question. We have of course held the | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
prison population stable for the last six years. There are some | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
areas, such as sex offences, where we've seen sentences rise and I | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
think that is right, because those are serious crimes that weren't | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
receiving the level of punishment that we would expect. However, as | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
I've said before and I made in the speech a few weeks ago, I think | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
there is more we can do to prevent people committing those crimes that | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
lead to custody, by tackling issues earlier on, whether that is drug | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
addiction, alcohol abuse, whether it is not being in education and | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
training. I look forward to saying more about that in due course. I | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
will give way. I'm grateful to the Lord Chancellor | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
for giving way. Nobody will disagree with the statements she is made | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
relating to clause one of the Bill, they are sensible and sound. She | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
must recognise all the indicators are rising on self harm, assault and | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
every other indicator we have on there are six and a half thousand | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
fewer officers than seven years ago. Could she tell us how many officers | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
she is recruited to date, how many she expects to recruit and how she | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
can keep a prison population as it was in 2010 with few officers? | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
As the honourable gentleman knows we have a programme to recruit 2500 | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
additional officers across the estate. I can confirm we've started | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
in ten of the most challenging prisons. We've now successfully | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
secured those complement of officers in those first ten prisons, which we | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
said we would do by the end of March. We now have a record number | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
of officers in training, over 700, but I don't and I it's a challenging | :52:34. | :52:39. | |
task to recruit those officers. But as the honourable gentleman knows | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
from his experience as Prisons Minister, it's vital we do that | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
because it's only by having qualified and skilled officers that | :52:47. | :52:48. | |
we will help turn those lives around. I'm not just interested in | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
numbers. I'm also interested in the career prospects we give officers, | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
the additional training we give officers and that's why we are | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
putting in an additional 2000 senior officer posts across the country. | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
Those will be paid upward of ?30,000 and those will reward officers who | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
got additional training in areas like mental health. But as the | :53:14. | :53:15. | |
honourable gentleman realises, it takes time to recruit and train | :53:16. | :53:17. | |
those officers. But am absolutely determined to do that because | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
alongside these reforms, that is what is going to make the difference | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
on the ground in our prisons, having trained officers that can make a | :53:26. | :53:32. | |
difference. I will give way. I think I can help with an idea. 10% | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
of the prison population, actually it's more like 15%, foreign | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
prisoners. The ones from Albania, Jamaica, Somalia, Nigeria, they make | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
up about 20% of foreign prisoners. Surely we can have arrangements | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
whereby these prisoners are sent back to their own friendly | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
countries, including Commonwealth countries it might help with | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
arrangements for both countries. My honourable friend is absolutely | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
right. I'm pleased to say a record number of foreign offenders were | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
sent back last year, but we are doing even more on this and are | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
making progress. My honourable friend the Prisons Minister is | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
working on that very hard. I will give way to my honourable friend. I | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
am very grateful to the right honourable lady for giving way. Can | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
I also welcomed the Bill, particularly the emphasis that is | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
put under the purpose of prison. She will be aware one of the most | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
successful young offender programmes is that it's run by National Grid, | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
which has been going for many years and they now have 80 partner | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
companies working with them. They have got the reoffending rate down | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
from the average, which is way over 50% to 7%. In particular some of | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
their partner companies have been working really hard with Brixton | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
prison with this release on temporary licence. I understand | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
Brixton has recently been removed from the road to yell regime and is | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
causing some difficulty because there are no other prisons in London | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
that satisfy those criteria. -- ROTL. Which she look into this and | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
think about putting this on the face of the Bill because this ROTL scheme | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
is really working for young offenders. The honourable lady was | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
keen to prove that her intervention was erudite and compressive and in | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
that mission I think the honourable lady has been successful, or even | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
the right honourable lady. I thank my right honourable friend | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
for her point. She is absolutely right that it's by getting employers | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
who want to employ people on the outside and getting them to train | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
offenders on the inside that will help create that path into work that | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
reduces reoffending. I've been to Brixton and seen the work they are | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
doing with offenders, which is fantastic. I know that the questions | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
she posed is already being addressed by my right honourable friend the | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
Prisons Minister. We won the ability for people to be able to get that | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
experience in work, so they can leave prison into a job and lead a | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
lawful life. We are also launching a strategy unemployment, to try and | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
get more employers like National Grid and Simpsons on Holford that | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
already do fantastic work, to sign up to employing those ex-offenders | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
because that benefits all of us. I will give way. | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
She has mentioned already how important staffing is. It is to be | :56:26. | :56:33. | |
welcomed, the roll-out of a 1-6 ratio in public sector prisons. What | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
I do not understand is why that would not apply to private prisons | :56:38. | :56:40. | |
because they deal with the same challenges as those in the public | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
sector. I thank the Honourable lady. I should clarify that what is is a | :56:46. | :56:52. | |
1-6 caseload. What that means is each officer will have | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
responsibility for six offenders, which they are in charge of making | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
sure the offenders are safe but encouraging them to reform while | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
they are imprisoned. I tell her that their head of the prison service is | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
in discussions with the private sector prisons to make sure they | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
also have access to the same level of staffing. We want that to apply | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
in both the private and public sector. I do need to make a bit more | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
progress, otherwise I will not get through this in time. I am feeling | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
generous. I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I am grateful | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
to the Lord Chancellor in giving way. She has set out this aspiration | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
before. I wonder if maybe now she can set out a timescale as to when | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
it will be we will get the ratios and the imbalance between the public | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
and private sector corrected. When will that happen? I can assure the | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
honourable gentleman it is on the same timescale as the public sector | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
programme, so over the next year and a half is when we will deliver that. | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
I will give way to my honourable friend. Thank you for giving way. I | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
commend her for much of what she is doing in this bill. I was just | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
curious as to why, when she makes great pains to stress the importance | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
of mental health and the links with reoffending and the importance of | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
reducing self harm and other issues in prisons, why, when one of the | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
fundamental duties is not to promote and protect the mental health and | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
well-being of prisoners? I know my honourable friend takes a strong | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
interest in this area. I can assure him in terms of the commissioning | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
arrangements for governors, they will get those powers to specify | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
mental health treatment in their own prisons. At the moment, governors | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
have complained to me that mental health services are only available | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
five days a week and that is an issue when someone arrives in the | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
prison at the weekend with serious health issues. What they will be | :58:59. | :59:01. | |
able to do is co-commissioners services. Under the categories of | :59:02. | :59:08. | |
reforming and rehabilitating offenders, we have also announced | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
there will be specific performance metrics and some of those will be | :59:14. | :59:20. | |
covering health issues. We will be saying more about that in due | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
course. It is part of the reform measures we are putting in place and | :59:25. | :59:30. | |
it will be covered in the specific performance agreements that | :59:31. | :59:34. | |
individual prisons have with me as Secretary of State. I will give way | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
on one more occasion and then I will make progress. I'm grateful for | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
giving way. Astin Grange prison in York has the lowest reoffending rate | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
in the country. For two years, the Government has been saying it will | :59:50. | :59:52. | |
close the women's prison. Will the Lord Chancellor look at that again | :59:53. | :59:58. | |
confirmed she will not do that because it is such an excellent | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
prison? I will be happy to that issue and will be launching a new | :00:03. | :00:05. | |
strategy for women offenders about how we can better make sure that we | :00:06. | :00:13. | |
deal with underlying issues, whether that is substance abuse, whether it | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
is issues of abuse and domestic violence, so that we can get a | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
better solution and prevent women from committing the crimes that lead | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
them into custody. We will cover what the honourable lady has | :00:30. | :00:37. | |
specifically mentioned. Also preparing prisoners for life outside | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
prison. As has already been mentioned. Making sure there is | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
sustainable employment, making sure there is a home for the offender to | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
go to is vitally important in reducing reoffending. I will give | :00:53. | :01:03. | |
way. There is a prison in my constituency. They have been | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
pioneers in a programme called jobs, friends and families. Could I ask | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
the minister to have a look at some of the programme is being run by | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
this prison to see if we can incorporate that because it does | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
make a difference to people's lives? I would be very happy to see the | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
details of that scheme. What we are doing in our performance measures | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
and the way we are looking at the governors being empowered is areas | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
like family ties will be included. Governors will be given control of | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
their budget for helping prisoners with their family ties. We have had | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
a report from Lord Farmer, who I am meeting this week to discuss | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
further. As well as having work, a home to go to, having a supportive | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
family, it can be a very important part of rehabilitation. All of those | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
things, the governor needs to look at. What I am setting out is very | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
clear expectations of what prisons should be doing but not how they | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
should do it. I believe it is up to the individual governor to look at | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
what works in their area, what works for the people in that individual | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
prisons, and to be given flexibility to be able to deliver things in an | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
innovative way. That is very important as well. I'll be very | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
clear about the standards we expect that how they do it will be much | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
more down to governors and that is very important. Does the Lord | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
Chancellor agreed that one of the key recommendations of Lord Farmer | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
is going, in itself, if we are able to tackle the links with families, | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
in itself reduce reoffending? He will show that 63% of the children | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
of offenders themselves grow up to offend. Does she agree it is | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
important that we intervene early to ensure that does not actually | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
happen? My honourable friend is absolutely correct on that point. We | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
do have an issue with those children often feeling that they have done | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
something wrong. It is absolutely wrong they should be punished for a | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
crime their parent has committed. I am determined to do what we can to | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
make sure that innovative schemes like storybook dads, which helps to | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
keep a link between father and also mothers and their children, are | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
protected whilst those individuals are in prison. Finally, we also need | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
to maintain a prison environment that is safe and secure. Britain's | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
need to feel safe or staff in prisons. As well as tackling violent | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
incidents and creating the right culture and atmosphere, we need to | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
provide support to probable prisoners and make sure we have | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
sufficient levels of staffing to provide that safety and security. | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
The bill makes clear how I, as Secretary of State, will account to | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
Parliament for progress in reforming offenders that this is the first | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
time. This is the first time that in legislation it will be clear that | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
the Secretary of State is responsible for reforming offenders | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
and the Secretary of State me, will have to report to Parliament about | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
what I do. That is a very important change we will see happening in the | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
culture of our prisons. For the first time there will be | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
accountability at Cabinet level for not just whether or not prisons will | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
be safe, which is important, not just whether or not we are providing | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
enough prison places but whether, whilst those individuals are under | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
the care of the state, whether their lives are being turned around | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
whether they are being reformed and whether they leave prison with | :04:40. | :04:52. | |
better prospects are more likely to lead a | :04:53. | :04:53. | |
law-abiding life? I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I have | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
been listening very closely to this of the debate which has been | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
extremely consensual. There is a great deal of common hope invested | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
in the institution in Wrexham. We are hugely impressed with the staff | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
are picking up on the point she is making, will she report back on a | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
regular basis of the progress of that particular prison? Many of the | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
aspects of the philosophy we are talking about, I think it has been | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
carried forward in practical terms, and it would be extremely important | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
to measure that as time passes. We are looking at the progress made and | :05:34. | :05:42. | |
learning the lessons across our prison estate. The Lord Chancellor | :05:43. | :05:51. | |
is very generous in giving way to me twice that she will be aware that | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
people with autism are disproportionately represented in | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
the criminal justice system. In Feltham, it was the first prison to | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
have accreditation at being autism friendly for that they've found that | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
reduced violence and help people with mental health problems. Many | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
people are going through the accreditation process. Will she give | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
consideration to make sure that all establishments go through this | :06:20. | :06:21. | |
accreditation process because I believe it will deliver a safe | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
environment in prisons for our officers and those that are | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
incarcerated? I thank my honourable friend. I will look at that. I know | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
she has a long accordance standing up for people with autism are making | :06:34. | :06:40. | |
sure they have proper support. I just want to finish the point. We | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
have to move on to the court section of the bill. She is very kind. In | :06:44. | :06:54. | |
the Bill, it says the report has set out the extent to which prisoners | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
are meeting the purpose mentioned in section a one. What happens if the | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
prisons generally do not meet those purposes? What will the Secretary of | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
State do about it? What can she do about it? What will happen if she | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
does nothing about it? My honourable friend, who served as shadow prisons | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
minister, has a very important point to make here. What the bill does, as | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
well as creating a framework for the minister, we are also setting up the | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
new Executive agency, Her Majesty 's prison and probation service from | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
the 1st of April which will focus on the operational management of | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
prisons and probation. We will have new standards so performance | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
measures will appear in performance tables, so the public will feature | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
chance apparently and accountability what is going on in prisons. At the | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
moment we do not know what the employment rate out of a particular | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
prisoners, or how good a prison is at improving English and maths for | :08:00. | :08:08. | |
people the prison or how effective they are at getting people off | :08:09. | :08:10. | |
drugs. Those measures will be published. That will bring much | :08:11. | :08:12. | |
greater scrutiny and accountability for the public. In addition to that, | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
what I'm doing a the powers of the prison inspectorate. But the | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
inspectorate will be able to do, and the Chief inspector in particular it | :08:23. | :08:29. | |
will trigger an urgent response from the Secretary of State in the most | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
serious of cases. If a prisoner is failing to meet those standards, it | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
will mean the Secretary of State must respond within a specific | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
timetable and will have to take action in terms of an action plan to | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
improve that specific prison. At the moment that is not in place. I will | :08:48. | :08:54. | |
give way. I assume this is intended to be visible. If the Secretary of | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
State did not respond within the times suggested, the Government | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
would be appearing in court. They will be given specific powers to | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
make sure it happens will do what the bill also do as it will place | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
the prisons and probation ombudsman on a statutory footing the giving | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
him greater authority and statutory powers in investigating deaths in | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
custody. The bill also supports our efforts to stop drug use and crime | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
enabled by a legal mobile phones. It enables phone network operators to | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
disrupt unlawful use of mobile phones in custody. I will give way | :09:32. | :09:33. | |
to the honourable lady. I just wanted to ask if she could | :09:34. | :09:43. | |
answer very quickly in the case of the prison escape who is | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
accountable? The Governor is accountable for what happens in | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
their prison but ultimately there is a line management structure, through | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
to the head of the prison service and ultimately to the Secretary of | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
State. I'm moving on to the other measures | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
in the Bill. The Bill also supports swifter responses to the effects of | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
psycho reactive substances. What they do with fuel debt and violence | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
and they can have a very severe impact on prisoners help. We rolled | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
out new tests for psychoactive substances last year and we were the | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
first jurisdiction in the world to do that. The Bill also strengthens | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
our ability to keep up with the speed at which the substances | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
evolve. It allows for quick testing for newly identified psychoactive | :10:36. | :10:44. | |
substances based on guidelines in the guidelines. Madam Deputy | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
Speaker, we face challenges in our prisons that will not be solved in | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
weeks or months, but am absolutely determined to turn the situation | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
around. We now have the resources to do that, we are investing an | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
additional ?100 million a year and we have a clear plan to do that. | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
What the measures in this Bill do is provide a structure under which that | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
accountability and scrutiny can take place, so that we can see how our | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
prisons are improving over time. Madam Deputy Speaker, this Bill | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
introduces major reforms to the courts and justice system, which I | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
announced in my joint memorandum with the Lord Chief Justice and | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
senior President of the tribunal 's in September. It will introduce more | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
virtual and online hearings, put in place greater protection for | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
witnesses and victims and provide greater support for excellent judges | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
and magistrates. I want to take a moment to page tribute to the Lord | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
Chief Justice, a great reformer who has spearheaded these reforms and | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
who will retire later this year. I also want to thank the senior | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
President of tribunal rules. Their vision for a caught and tribunal | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
system that is just, proportionate and accessible lies at the very | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
heart of the reforms set out in this Bill. These reforms are a tribute to | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
their tireless work alongside other senior members of the judiciary. I | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
will give way. I'll be half of the Justice select | :12:13. | :12:22. | |
committee associate ourselves with her comments about the Lord Chief | :12:23. | :12:24. | |
Justice. Would she reflect as to whether or not it is passing through | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
the House, this Bill may not give an opportunity to revisit the retiring | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
age of the senior judiciary at 70, which runs against the behaviour of | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
much of the rest of society and our economy. It might be an opportunity | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
to consider. I thank the chairman of the select | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
committee for introducing this hotly debated issue into this discussion | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
about the Bill, which is not, this measure is not part of the Bill. I | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
have had discussions on this issue with the senior judiciary. I don't | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
think there is currently a consensus on that issue, but it's certainly | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
something that I think we should consider in due course, but as I | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
said, at the moment, there is not a consensus on that issue. | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
Yesterday we announced we are bringing forward the roll-out of | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
reforms, allowing rape victims to prerecord their cross-examination, | :13:25. | :13:26. | |
sparing them from the trauma of giving evidence during the trial. | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
This follows successful pilots of these measures for child victims of | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
all crimes. This will not produce the right to a fair trial. During | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
the pilots for vulnerable victims there was no significant change in | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
the conviction rate but what we did see was more early guilty pleas and | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
fewer cracked trials, which means less stress and trauma for all of | :13:48. | :13:55. | |
those participating in the case. I want to praise the determined | :13:56. | :13:57. | |
leadership of the president of the Queen 's bench division and the | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
senior presiding judge. They have been vital to developing the plans | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
for rolling out these provisions for child victims and victims of sexual | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
offences in all Crown Courts. Given in some of our crown courts we have | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
almost 50% of cases are sexual cases, I think this is a very | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
important reform that will help and support people who have to go | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
through this terrible experience and really make improvements in this | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
situation. I will give way. Thank you. This is a very welcome | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
announcement but it will mean more cases will have to be included in | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
the roll-out of section 28 due to be completed by December 20 17. The | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
sexual assault referral centre in Manchester has video link to the | :14:51. | :15:01. | |
court. With the Secretary of State considers the facilitation of this | :15:02. | :15:10. | |
venue? I thank the honourable lady. I am in | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
principle in favour of using alternative venues apart from | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
courts, which can often be conducive to people giving their best possible | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
evidence in a less intimidating environment. It's something I will | :15:26. | :15:27. | |
have to discuss with the senior judiciary. We're working very | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
closely with them on this issue. I am certainly in favour of using | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
places like sexual assault referral centres to make sure we give the | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
best possible support to victims and witnesses in a very difficult time | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
they have to go through. The measures set out in this Bill | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
will further enhance our ability to protect vulnerable witnesses and | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
modernise the courts and tribunal system. Our changes to the system | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
should reflect, should be reflected in better legal support that is | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
focused on early help and representation. That is why we are | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
bringing forward a legal support green paper in early 2018, setting | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
up proposals to update the system of legal support in a modern court | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
system. Less time navigating the system and more legal time spent on | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
giving people legal advice and legal representation. Parts two and three | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
of the Bill will take forward measures relating to procedures in | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
civil, family and criminal matters and the organisation and functions | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
of courts and tribunals. I will talk through each in turn. I will give | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
way. I am most grateful to her for giving | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
way. One of the areas that causes me concern, in terms of representation | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
in court, is matrimonial proceedings, which I think are some | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
of the most difficult, emotional and contentious areas in our courts and | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
where there is very little legal representation that is publicly | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
funded. Is the Lord Chancellor content with the current situation, | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
and which areas to she think needs most attention? | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
If the honourable gentleman is asking me am I content with the | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
current situation, know I am not content. We do need to reform the | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
family justice system. We need to help people get earlier resolution | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
of their, the issues that they have. We need to get better, I think, at | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
helping families, and I'm a big fan of the family Court and the work | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
they do in supporting families. That's why my honourable friend and | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
I will be bringing forward a green paper on family justice, which looks | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
at the system in a holistic way and looks at how we can do things | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
better. Within the family justice system. But I think there are | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
certainly areas of improvement. I do think it's an important step that we | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
are banning the ability of alleged abusers to be able to cross examine | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
their victims in court. This was done in the crown courts in the | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
1990s and we are only now catching up with that in the family courts. I | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
think it is very important that we give family courts the priority in | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
the system that they deserve, because it's very important that we | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
deal with these difficult issues in peoples lives in a sensitive way as | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
possible. This Bill will also make sure that | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
victims and witnesses in the criminal courts receive the support | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
they deserve. It will extend the use of video links and virtual hearings, | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
which have multiple benefits. First of all it will allow victims to be | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
eligible to be taking part in cases without having to meet their | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
religion attacker face-to-face. In future, around 180,000 victims and | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
witnesses a year will have the opportunity to give evidence remote | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
suites, from a convenient location or in advance of the hearing. It | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
will enable more bail hearings to take place through video link and | :19:06. | :19:07. | |
away from the court room, saving time and money. It will increase the | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
efficiency and effectiveness of the overall process, by allowing a | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
number of decisions to be made outside the traditional court room | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
and will save people time in travelling to court, saving around | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
112,000 journeys from prisons to court each year. | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
I will give way. I am most grateful. Again, I support the thrust and | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
intention behind this. In the case of victims, of course, normally | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
victims are the first witness for the prosecution. But where you are | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
dealing with witnesses, is there not a risk, and how are we going to | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
factor in the possibility that the question you may wish to ask the | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
witness is changed by the evidence that precedes the witness giving | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
that evidence? And we're going to have to have a system in place to | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
deal with that if a fair trial processes to be maintained. | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
My honourable friend makes a very important point, that a fair trial | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
is at the heart of our justice system. What we are establishing | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
is... We've already got rules committees, we're establishing a new | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
online rules committee as well, which will be managed by the | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
judiciary. They will look at these issues in detail, to make sure that | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
a fair trial is always paramount in these cases. | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
The Bill will also enable screens to be installed in court and Wales to | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
allow the public to observe virtual hearings from court buildings | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
anywhere in the country. List of all open cases will be published online | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
and results will be made available digitally. This will ensure that | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
justice is done and also that it is seen to be done. The Bill will | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
streamline the pre-trial process and make changes to the way cases are | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
allocated in the crown and Magistrates' Court. Defendants will | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
be able to indicate a plea online in all cases, allowing the courts to | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
make administrative decisions without the need for a hearing. We | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
are also stripping out almost 30,000 unnecessary first hearings for the | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
most serious offences in the Magistrates' Court each year. The | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
Bill will abolish local justice areas, simplifying the structure our | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
Magistrates' Court and removing the bureaucracy and geographical | :21:22. | :21:23. | |
constraints that cause inefficiencies and delays. It will | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
allow those charged with some of the most straightforward | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
non-imprisonable offences to resolve their cases entirely online. I could | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
give the House is an example. A commuter charged with failure to | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
produce a ticket can log onto a website, have all the options | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
clearly explained to them and accept a conviction and pay a set penalty | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
instantly online, without waiting for a magistrates to process their | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
case. My honourable friend will be aware | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
that a number of Magistrates' Courts were closed in preceding years, | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
including the court in Bedford by the justices themselves, despite the | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
best efforts of my honourable friend, the member for Cambridge in | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
north-west. Will these measures help allay my constituents concerns about | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
additional travel for some of those offences they have cause question | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
what will this give them some comfort that their concerns will be | :22:19. | :22:26. | |
allayed? I represent a rural constituency and | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
understand people's concerns about having to travel far. What these | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
hearings will enable people to do is to be able to do more online, so | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
they don't need to travel to court. To be able to use virtual videos. | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
What we've seen is that is reducing travel needs right across the | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
country. Also, if they want to observe a case in another part of | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
the country, they will be able to go into their court with special | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
permission to be able to observe that case, so it should give more | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
access for victims and witnesses to the justice process. I will give | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
way. All these plans for online | :23:07. | :23:14. | |
communication are wonderful. If only you have the ability to get quality | :23:15. | :23:21. | |
broadband. So in parts of my constituency, broadband as low as | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
25% of capability, how on earth are people going to be able to access | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
justice when they cannot possibly do anything online because of appalling | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
broadband? We are doing a lot to improve | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
broadband across the country. The online system is not mandatory. The | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
paper process will be available. But I've been looking recently at | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
virtual hearings taking place across the country and in some areas of the | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
country, like the south-west of England, there is very high take-up | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
of these hearings, because it does help people in rural areas who do | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
have long distances to travel to get caught, to be able to use | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
broadband... The West Country is leading the way at the moment. What | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
we're looking at is how we can encourage courts across the country | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
to do the same thing. I'm very pleased to say that civil justice is | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
at the forefront of our reforms. I was proud to announce a new business | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
and property court last week, with the Lord Chief Justice and the | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
chance of the High Court. These courts are the vanguard of our | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
world-class justice system and making sure that global Britain | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
leads the world in law. They were based in London, Leeds, Bristol, | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
Manchester and Cardiff. And I think they represent the fact that our | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
courts and our commercial courts don't just serve the City of London, | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
which is of course important, but significant regional centres across | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
the country. This Bill introduces a new online court which will enable | :24:53. | :24:54. | |
more people... I promise this is an uncontroversial | :24:55. | :25:07. | |
intervention this time. Does she agree one of the strengths of our | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
commercial courts, as well as the integrity of the Judiciary Committee | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
as the Blatty to enforce judgments worldwide, and that includes within | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
the European Union? Does she accepted his most important in the | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
Brexit negotiations that the ability to force judgments remains a top | :25:24. | :25:32. | |
priority? My honourable friend is correct about that point. As well as | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
making sure that these commercial courts are right across regions of | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
our country, we need to make sure we have mutual enforcement of | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
judgments. We have a commitment to do that as the Government. It is | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
something I have agreed with the Secretary of State for exiting the | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
EU. That is a priority for this government's negotiations. The bill | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
introduces a new online court to enable people to resolve civil | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
claims of up to 25,000 simply and easily online. These online services | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
will increase access to justice. The bill will reform procedures so | :26:10. | :26:17. | |
people can make witness statements rather than statutory declarations | :26:18. | :26:19. | |
in relation to certain traffic and air quality offences in the Crown | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
Court. It means people will not have to go into court to go through the | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
process. It will streamline the attachment of earnings orders, | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
giving the council the same powers as the High Court. We also want our | :26:32. | :26:39. | |
excellent judiciary and magistrates to be better supported on a wet they | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
do. This bill will allow judges and all of our courts in tribunal is to | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
make greater and more effective use of authorised court staff, to assist | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
them with tasks such as dealing with routine applications or ensuring | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
compliance with court directions this will allow our judicially to | :26:58. | :26:59. | |
prioritise their time and expertise on the matter is whether you need it | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
most. The bill will bring the legislative framework for the | :27:06. | :27:07. | |
compliment tribunal system in close alignment with that of the wider | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
tribunal system. It will confirm responsibility for making this usual | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
rules to the Tribunal procedure committee. Employment judges will be | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
able to delegate routine tasks to approach the trade or qualified | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
staff. Overall, these reforms will benefit tribunal users whose cases | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
will be resolved more quickly and proportionately. Madam Deputy | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
Speaker, we have the most highly regarded judiciary in the world. | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
They are a beacon of independence, expertise, commitment to the rule of | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
law. The Lord Chief Justice and I are working closely together to make | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
role for judges and magistrates in a role for judges and magistrates in a | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
transformed and modern justice system. We are putting into place | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
reforms that recognise magistrates as an integral part of the judicial | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
family. The judicial is an important part of our Constitution and its | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
continued independence is vital for the rule of law. We must continue to | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
uphold very high standards and to select its members purely on merit. | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
That means ensuring that people want to apply, that they feel valued, and | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
they have good working conditions. I value the work the judiciary does | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
from the magistrates and tribunals to the High Court and Supreme Court. | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
As Lord Chancellor I am determined to support them in all they do. Part | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
four the bill takes forward measures to ensure our judiciary has the | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
support and opportunities they need for a fulfilling and successful | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
career. This bill will strengthen leadership structures in the | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
judiciary, providing clear career progression for the judges and | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
ensuring we have the widest possible range of talent coming into the | :28:59. | :29:00. | |
judiciary will make it easier to be more flexible, allowing judges to | :29:01. | :29:02. | |
gain experience with different types of cases and helping with career | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
progression. This bill will enable the judicial appointments commission | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
to assist with this selection exercises in other parts of the | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
world, sharing leading expertise within the commission. Part five of | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
the bill tackles the rampant compensation culture that has | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
developed around whiplash claims. Just before she moves on, she said | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
quite rightly how much she values magistrates and the work they do. | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
When can we expect the Government to allow magistrates to send people to | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
prison for 12 months for an offence rather than six months? That is | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
something this government has been promising to do for quite some time. | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
I thank my honourable friend for his dog with support of magistrates will | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
appears right about the fantastic work they do. -- his dog-eared | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
support. I am happy to discuss this with him further. Part five of the | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
bill tackles a rampant compensation culture that has developed around | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
whiplash claims. The numbers of road traffic accident claims are 50% | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
higher than they were ten years ago it was that despite the fact there | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
are fewer accidents and safer cars on our roads. The bill will enable | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
us to introduce a transparent tariff system of fixed proportionate | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
compensation for whiplash claims with an injury duration of up to two | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
years. It will make sure all claims will be supported by good quality, | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
medical evidence, provided by accredited experts. I will give way | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
to the honourable gentleman. I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor. | :30:38. | :30:45. | |
Shouldn't she use this bill to put into place a fairer, more balanced | :30:46. | :30:47. | |
framework, for calculating personal injury compensation lump sum | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
insurance payments following the seismic decision she made on the | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
discount rate a few weeks ago? It will not just potentially raise our | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
constituents insurance premiums vary significantly but for the tax payer, | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
NHS litigation, the Treasury are saying it could add 2 billion as | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
next year and ?1 billion thereafter. Surely there is a better balance | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
this bill could introduce? I thank the honourable gentleman for his | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
point. I can assure him he will not have to wait long. I agree with him | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
that the system needs reform. I'll be bringing forward a consultation | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
before the Easter recess. I look forward to hearing from him in the | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
consultation. I'm grateful for her generosity. Can she tell the Has | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
whether compensation tariff figures for whiplash came from question up | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
what evidence was there for the governor to put these figures in the | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
consultation document? I think the honourable gentleman will have | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
noticed we have changed the figures in response to the consultation | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
document. They were adjudged to have been fair and reasonable for the | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
level of injury we are talking about in this case. Will you give way? Can | :32:00. | :32:12. | |
I ask the Lord Chancellor if she were considered just very slightly | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
widening the definition of whiplash injuries in clause 61 to include | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
injuries to the lower back, as well as the upper back? I thank my | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
honourable friend for that point. That was an issue covered in the | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
consultation. We have brought it back, listening to what people fed | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
through in the consultation. This bill will enter the unfairness of | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
higher premiums for motorists while ensuring fair compensation remains | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
available for genuinely injured claimants. Madam Deputy Speaker... | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
The prison and courts bill will usher in a new modern hero for our | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
prisons, courts and justice system. -- modern era. It will make sure | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
that our prisons are places of reform, so that offenders have the | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
skills they need to return to society, secure employment and turn | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
their back on crime. It will create a courts and tribunal system to | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
protect the most vulnerable and is more straightforward and accessible | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
for all. It will enable the Judiciary Committee the demands of | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
the modern justice system and in harms our reputation for legal | :33:26. | :33:27. | |
excellence around the world. I commend it to the house. The | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
question is that the bill now be read a second time. Richard Bergen. | :33:34. | :33:40. | |
Rank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to start off by echoing the | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
Justice Secretary's and is about the young prison officer, who was | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
attacked in Oak Hill last week. Want to take this opportunity to pay | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
tribute to all our prison officers doing such a good job in such | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
difficult circumstances. Madam Deputy Speaker, I also want to start | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
my contribution by thanking the Secretary of State, who telephoned | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
me the evening before the publication of the bill to discuss | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
its contents with me, and I also want to thank the courts and | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
tribunal 's minister in the same way for meeting with me last week to | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
discuss the bill in further detail. I have only been in this place for a | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
limited amount of time and it is a custom more often honoured in the | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
breach and observance. I was pleased they contact me on this very | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
courteous and informative way. I will also thank the House of Commons | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
library for its borough and clear briefing, which has assisted myself | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
and staff, and doubtless other members and their staff as well. On | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
to the current landscape, Madam Deputy Speaker. Today we are | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
discussing a bill to amend procedures in our prisons and in our | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
courts. This bill was back in the days when the former member for | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
Witney was Prime Minister. The right honourable member for Surrey Hughes | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
was just a secretary and the right honourable member for Tatton could | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
not find time to edit a daily newspaper. Much has changed since | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
then we have waited a long time for this bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, we | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
are not opposed to this bill. Indeed be welcome and support much of the | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
contents of the bill. However, where we disagree, or believe the | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
Government should go further, then we will pursue amendments in | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
committee. This bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, comes at a time of jewel | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
crises. A dangerous and declining prisoner state and thousands of | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
people who have been priced out of access to justice. Let me set out | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
the reasons for these crises and what the bill must offer to make a | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
real difference. In relation to prisons, it has been the Secretary | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
of State's 's fortune to inherit a brief, dominated from day one, by | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
the crisis in our prisons. It is not a crisis of the current Secretary of | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
State's making that is one created by the Conservative government cuts | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
agenda. The statistics often cited in this place but they are worth | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
repeating. Overcrowding in 68% of our prisons, approximately 77,000 | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
prison places, but more than 84,000 people in our prisons. In the 12 | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
months to September 2016, over 25,000 prisoner assault incidents | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
within prisons. The 31% increase on the figure to September 2000 and 15. | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, assaults on prison staff reached 6430. An | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
increase of 82% since 2006 and a 40% increase from the year before. There | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
were more than 37,750 incidents of self harm. This was an increase of | :37:03. | :37:11. | |
61% can compare to September 2006, and a national increase of 23% on | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
the previous year. And, in the 12 months to December 2016, there were | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
354 deaths of prisoners in custody, that of which were self inflicted. | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
It was that government decision to cut 7000 front-line prison officers, | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
which has doubtlessly contributed in large part to the crisis. And that, | :37:37. | :37:45. | |
allied to the disastrous decision to prioritise our probation service, so | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
that effective rehabilitation of offenders has become all but extinct | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
on successive Conservative governments. I am very grateful. I | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
want to support our prison officers and help to protect them. One moment | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
I intend to table later on, during the passage of the bill, is that | :38:05. | :38:11. | |
anybody who is a prisoner, who assaults the prison officer, should | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
no longer be automatically released halfway through their prison | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
sentence. I think that would have a big impact on the prison officers | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
Association. I'm sure they would welcome that may deter some violence | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
we see in the prisons. If I were to table such an amendment but with the | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
honourable member show his support? Thank you for the intervention. We | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
will be in the bill committee looking at ways with my honourable | :38:38. | :38:47. | |
friend, the member for Halifax, and others, and ensuring that we put the | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
safety of our prison officers first and I would argue on par with that | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
of police officers. So, these are all challengers. They are challenges | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
of overcrowding, violence, and failing to reform. All challenges | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
that this bill must confront and surmount. In relation to courts and | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
tribunal is, the bill sets out proposals to modernise the way our | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
courts operate. This, of course, is welcome. I can testify from my own | :39:15. | :39:22. | |
decade as an employment tribunal lawyer, when in bleak house, Dickens | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
complained about the turgid pays, with which courts dealt with cases, | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
he could have been speaking for our age as well as his own. Technology | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
has begun to appear in court rooms in which it was previously, | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
glaringly absent. It is vital, Madam Deputy Speaker, that these | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
innovations do not come at the expense of access to justice. In | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
recent years, when the Conservatives have released documents with the | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
word transforming in the title, it usually has meant shorthand for | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
cutting, diminishing, and failing. Think about transforming legal aid. | :39:58. | :40:06. | |
Think about transforming rehabilitation. Therefore, | :40:07. | :40:07. | |
transforming our justice system, one of the papers which has so | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
influenced this bill, must not result in the same. It was the Lord | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
Chief Justice, Lord Thomas, who said last year, this was his words, our | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
system of justice has become unaffordable to most. So, I am glad | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
that the Secretary of State praised Lord Thomas in her speech full he | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
was certainly correct when he said our system of justice has become | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
unaffordable to most. I would welcome it if the Secretary of State | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
with baby on praising Lord Thomas to agreeing with his analysis of his | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
barriers to access the justice. Lord Thomas said what the honourable | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
gentleman says he said but he will be aware that Lord Thomas is also | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
supportive of all the measures that are proposed in the Bill, in terms | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
of reforms of the courts, particularly in terms of the | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
technology we use to allow access to courts which so many people are | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
saying was going to be denied. He is supportive of all the measures. | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
Thank you for that intervention. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I made | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
clear at the outset of my speech, we are not opposing this Bill at second | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
reading. We welcome a number of the measures in the but think the | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
Government should go further. I hope that The right honourable member | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
will agree with me that reform shouldn't come at the expense of | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
access to justice and if Lord Thomas, we all hold in high esteem, | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
is saying our system of justice has become unaffordable to most, that is | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
something we must in this house on both sides take very seriously. | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
Nothing more poignantly demonstrates what Lord Thomas said about the | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
access to justice than the 70% in reduction of employment tribunal | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
cases following the coalition's introduction of tribunal fees. This | :41:58. | :42:06. | |
committee must provide answers to these problems. Technology alone is | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
not a panacea nor must it be utilised to mask further cuts to | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
public funding. On the subject of whiplash, Madam Deputy Speaker, a | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
key feature of this Bill and which has seen much coverage in recent | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
weeks, is the proposed reform to whiplash claims. Many were pleased | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
that when the Bill appeared it did not include raising the small claims | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
limit for all personal injuries. So the Government can be congratulated | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
for listening on listening a little, but we should be clear that these | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
reforms to whiplash are based on the false premise. We've heard the | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
Secretary of State say today there is a rampant culture, a rampant | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
compensation culture. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is no epidemic of | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
fraudulent claims. The British people are not on the fiddle or on | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
the make in a way that the Government so disparagingly | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
suggests. In relation to prisons, Madam Deputy Speaker... I will do. | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way and the | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
tone of what he is saying is in agreement with much of what's being | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
said and that is welcome. I will say when it comes to whiplash claims, | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
how does he explain the fact that the number of accidents is going | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
down enormously, yet the number of whiplash claims is going up | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
nevertheless, by 50%? Could it have something to do with fraud? | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
Thank you for the intervention. The number of whiplash claims in recent | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
years has reduced. What I would also say this is in recent years and has | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
stud. There is also a duty, a duty upon insurers to defend claims are | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
not pay out if claims are fraudulent. Part one of this Bill... | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
I will do. I'm grateful to my honourable friend | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
for giving way. Could he help me... The Government have made a claim to | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
whiplash proposals will reduce insurance premiums for drivers by | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
around ?40. Has he become aware of any evidence to back up this claim, | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
and if so could he help share it with the committee on the House | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
because we'd be very interested in examining it? | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
Thank you for that intervention. Unfortunately the Government has | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
provided no cast-iron assurances that this saving will be passed on | :44:33. | :44:42. | |
to drivers if it exists at all. I am grateful with my honourable friend. | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
Would he agree it's wrong to penalised people with valid personal | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
injury claims because of possible rises being driven by cowboy claims | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
companies that are cold calling people with suggestions they should | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
make claims no basis in basis in reality in this Bill does nothing to | :45:00. | :45:02. | |
address? I agree with the point my honourable | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
friend makes. They can't be injured people who should be made to pay the | :45:08. | :45:15. | |
price for the behaviour, the minority of unscrupulous companies | :45:16. | :45:17. | |
engaging in the practices she describes. On the subject of | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
prisons, the Secretary of State started her contribution today by | :45:23. | :45:29. | |
explaining how the Bill introduces a statutory purpose to prisons, | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
protecting the public, reforming and rehabilitating offenders, preparing | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
prisoners for life outside prison and maintaining an environment that | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
is safe and secure. Madam Deputy Speaker, of course we agree with | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
those aims. Most people believe that's what prisons are meant to be | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
doing already anyway. But what is also crystal clear is that those | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
things are not happening today. The main problems in prisons cannot be | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
disputed. Violence, drugs, overcrowding and understaffing. To | :46:05. | :46:06. | |
combat those threats effectively we need a plan for order, a plan to | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
reduce the demand and supply of drugs, a plan to manage the prison | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
population and recruit and retain prison officers. So where is any of | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
that in this Bill itself? Where are the practical measures in this Bill | :46:22. | :46:28. | |
to realise those goals? Madam Deputy Speaker, will be returning to this | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
the -- these issues that the committee stage. Can I try to help | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
my honourable friend? There is a theme running through the | :46:39. | :46:40. | |
Government's approach to this. In the prisons in court Bill, the | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
Government's approach to evidence is somewhat cavalier. Most of us would | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
accept there is likely to be a cause-and-effect in cutting 6500 | :46:51. | :46:52. | |
prison officers and only replacing them with 2500 with the introduction | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
of massive employment tribunal claims figures and a lack of access | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
to justice and the Bazaar compensation tariff proposals for | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
whiplash, with no evidence as to where the Government got their | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
figures from just an assertion from the Secretary of State they believe | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
in fair compensation. I believe in Santa Claus as well! | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
Thank you for that intervention. My honourable friend puts it very well | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
indeed. Evidence is required in court and evidence is required in | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
this place. I would submit that there is evidence lacking to back up | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
some of the Government's proposals. I will finish my point and then I | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
will give way. It's simply the case with the Government's review into | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
employment tribunal fees which basically says there was nothing to | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
see here, despite the evidence showing there has been a 70% | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
reduction in cases being brought to employment tribunal. I will give | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
way. I am glad the honourable gentleman | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
is in agreement with so much of what is in this Bill but would he also | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
agree there is a white paper alongside this Bill that does | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
contain a lot of the evidence that he is searching for? | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
Of course we have considered the white paper but the point I made | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
earlier if we will be returning to these practical proposals at the | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
committee stage in attempting to approve the Government's Bill. I | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
would also ask, Madam Deputy Speaker, do the ministers consider | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
the resettlement of prisoners might also be a worthy aim in the Bill? | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
Too many prisoners leave prison without a home to go to. That is a | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
barrier to so many things, including to getting a job. This hampers | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
rehabilitation... I will give way. Is my honourable friend aware of the | :48:40. | :48:46. | |
project which offers a prisoner who is ready to take the step of moving | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
out of drugs, out of the sending, into work, claiming no other | :48:52. | :48:58. | |
benefits and housing benefits. They become a companion, preparing good | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
stew selling a shop, restoring and repairing goods... No real cost | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
other than housing benefit to the state and support for people to | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
absolutely change their lives and it into work. Is that not something you | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
should be following? The project as fantastic work and is the kind of | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
that not only helps turn round the lives of inmates but also helps to | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
protect society. The majority of people who go into prisons come out | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
of our prisons and live next door to all of us. The project helps to give | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
people a stake in society and reduce reoffending. I believe the | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
Government can learn much from such projects. As I was saying, leaving | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
prison without a home to go to is a barrier to so many things, including | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
to getting a job and this hampers peoples and reintegration into | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
society in the way that I mentioned and my honourable friend explained. | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
So the Secretary of State will have overall responsibility for the | :50:01. | :50:03. | |
statutory aims... I will give way. I am so grateful to the honourable | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
gentleman for giving way and welcome his support for many of the | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
provisions of this Bill. Will he also agree with me that the National | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
Grid scheme that was started all those years ago by Doctor Mary | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
Harris is really valuable in finding homes for prisoners? They take | :50:20. | :50:21. | |
prisoners out on temporary licence, they pay them, they find them a job, | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
they have money on the bank and they often find them a home. That is why | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
this programme is so successful. Would he agree with me that really | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
they should be rolled out right across the prison system, | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
particularly as we need about 1.8 million engineers by the year 2020 | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
across the whole of the UK? It is certainly a very worthwhile | :50:46. | :50:48. | |
and welcome programme, which is why I've been arguing that the Bill | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
should specifically referred to this kind of practice. | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
In relation to the Secretary of State having overall responsibility | :50:58. | :50:59. | |
for the statutory aims, I think we do need to know more what this would | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
mean in practice and will the Secretary of State tell us who will | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
decide if the Secretary of State is for filling her response abilities? | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
We welcome the additional powers given to the Inspector of prisons. | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
The inspector's report means little, if not nothing, if their | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
recommendations are simply ignored. The Bill, as we've heard earlier, | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
says the Secretary of State must respond within 90 days. Firstly, it | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
would be interesting to know how that period of time has arrived at, | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
but beyond responding to the report, what else will the Secretary of | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
State be required to do? Because many stakeholders tell me that | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
failure to take any action in response to the report of the | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
independent monitoring board contribute to the prisons crisis. | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
The recent tragic death of Dean Saunders is a sad case of what can | :51:59. | :52:05. | |
go wrong when mental health issues and our prison system collide. So | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
has the Secretary of State considered whether she or prison | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
governors should also be required to respond to those findings? And could | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
the role of the governor be more effectively scrutinised through a | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
system of peer to peer review right across the prison estate, whether | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
public or private? The urgent notification system is welcomed but | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
again, how is the 28 day time limit in which to respond arrived at? And | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
does the concept of urgency not demand a shorter period than that? | :52:37. | :52:43. | |
There have been attempts in the past to put prisons and probation | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
ombudsman on a statutory footing and perhaps that is within reach, but | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
that is all the Bill dials in that regard. So what thought did the | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
Justice Secretary give to expanding, or augmenting its powers? There is | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
nothing in this Bill which addresses the need to improve the experience | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
and care of those who come to prison with mental health problems, or even | :53:09. | :53:14. | |
weather prison is the right place for many of them in the first place. | :53:15. | :53:21. | |
On the subject of communications in prisons and mobile phones, blocking | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
the use of unauthorised mobile phones in our prisons is clearly an | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
urgent task and of course, we fully support it. | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
But other measures would complement this innovation and reduce the trade | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
in mobile phones. Committed and hardened criminals will seek out | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
mobile phones to try to continue their criminal enterprises and | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
activities from inside our prisons. But for those prisoners who just | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
want to phone home or phone a friend, greater access to affordable | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
payphones for monitored calls will help to reduce the demand for | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
mobiles. Currently some prisons have payphones in cells, however most | :54:01. | :54:08. | |
prisons have just payphones on the prison wing and at association time | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
the prisoners end up queueing and may not get to use that phone before | :54:12. | :54:18. | |
their association time is up. I think, Madam Deputy Speaker, better | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
access to affordable payphones, with privacy from other inmates, would | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
reduce the demand for mobile phones. But of course we welcome the | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
Government's measures to block the unauthorised use of mobile phones. | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
Developing and using an effective way of testing for psychoactive | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
substances is also vital. However, that alone won't deal with the | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
demand and supply of those substances. Recent reports from | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
inspectorates have found that overcrowding and a shortage of | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
prison officers means intelligence led drug tests are sadly a rarity. | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
But the best and most effective way of reducing the demand for drugs is | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
to ensure a full and purposeful programme for all prisoners, so that | :55:06. | :55:07. | |
their time in prison is occupied. Many of these problems with which we | :55:08. | :55:17. | |
are now grappling can be linked to the disastrous decision to cut | :55:18. | :55:24. | |
prison officer numbers by 7000, or 30%, since 2010. The public sector | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
pay freeze has made recruitment more difficult and without sufficient | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
numbers of officers in prisons they cannot maintain order, they don't | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
have time to mix with prisoners and gather intelligence. Nor do they | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
have the time to conduct searches, fabric checks of cells or drugs | :55:42. | :55:48. | |
testing. I will give way. In the context of insufficient staff, does | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
he welcomed the establishment of prisons ombudsman with considerable | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
powers, including the power to direct the form of the response to | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
be made by the secretary of state to a report from the ombudsman? It is a | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
considerable power and if we have a strong ombudsman who would be | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
prepared in certain circumstances became necessary to face up to the | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
Secretary of State that is a powerful protection when the | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
ombudsman investigates deaths as deaths as well as other complaints. | :56:17. | :56:18. | |
That is a very important point, of course we | :56:19. | :56:32. | |
support a strong ombudsman we want reassurances that the Secretary of | :56:33. | :56:34. | |
State will not just have to respond to the ombudsman but had to take | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
action on the basis of the findings of the ombudsman. Prison officers | :56:38. | :56:39. | |
that I speak to wants to help offenders turn the lights around, | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
they want more responsibility and to be part of a value profession. They | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
don't want to be viewed as just turn keys but successive Conservative | :56:49. | :56:50. | |
justice secretaries have diminished their role. Away from the Bill, the | :56:51. | :56:57. | |
government has, as mentioned earlier, set out plans for league | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
tables and greater autonomy for prison governors. One wonders why | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
the government are persisting with the league tables idea when it was | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
first dismissed by the Chief Inspector of prisons, Peter Clarke, | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
at the Justice committee in January. The Prison Governors Association | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
have said that league tables will not achieve anything other than to | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
risk demoralising staff and unfairly judging the senior management team. | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
Perhaps that is what prompted the prisons minister to tell the Justice | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
committee it would be performance data. The Prison Governors | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
Association also fears increased governor autonomy coinciding with | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
increased responsibility for the Justice Secretary may result in, | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
heaven forbid, in blame being pushed their way, saying governors are | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
being asked, this is what the Prison Governors Association have said, | :57:52. | :57:53. | |
governors are being asked to sign up to agreements that will become | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
effective in five weeks with insufficient detail on what they | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
will be held account for. The risk is the prison reform Bill will | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
become the prison blame Bill. Further inroads into overcrowding | :58:05. | :58:10. | |
and the chaos could be made by considering who is being remanded | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
and why. Whether some offenders with mental health problems need a | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
different approach and in dealing with a backlog of IPP prisoners. We | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
see insufficient action to address any of these things. We were told, | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, that this bill will transform the lives of the | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
offenders, but just saying that is the case won't make it so because | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
transforming lives means first transforming their system. I want to | :58:37. | :58:43. | |
turn now to the subject of quartz and tribunal 's, which I touched | :58:44. | :58:50. | |
upon earlier. Since 2010 government legal aid cuts have robbed thousands | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
of the legal representation which should be there right. Many of them | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
are those who are most in need of legal representation, people in | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
debt, people claiming welfare benefits, people facing marital | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
breakdown and people facing housing problems, those are just some of the | :59:09. | :59:17. | |
examples. In 2012/13 724,243 civil law cases were funded by legal aid. | :59:18. | :59:24. | |
After the legal aid sentencing and punishment of offenders act that | :59:25. | :59:30. | |
figure plummeted. It plummeted to 258,460, now, I do recognise that | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
some on the benches opposite will toast these figures, as evidence of | :59:36. | :59:41. | |
a job well done, but in reality what else is this bug proof of access to | :59:42. | :59:48. | |
justice denied? The Coalition Government introduced employment | :59:49. | :59:51. | |
tribunal fees and that measure resulted in a 70% reduction in the | :59:52. | :59:57. | |
number of cases brought. The long delayed review that I mentioned | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
earlier essentially concluded that there is nothing to see here, and it | :00:01. | :00:07. | |
said that while there is clear evidence that the fees have | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
discouraged people from bringing claims, there is no conclusive | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
evidence they had been presented -- prevented from doing so. And only | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
illegal treatment by employers flouting the law of the land had | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
reduced by 70%. It is the number of cases that have reduced by 70%, not | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
the number of incidences of illegal treatment. I will give way. Isn't it | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
the case that if someone get something for nothing it is likely | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
they will take it up, and that was the core problem with employment | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
tribunal is, when people had to pay absolutely nothing to get access. It | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
is right if one goes to court that one pays some kind of fee. That is a | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
very useful intervention because it lays clear what the conservative | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
view on access to justice is. The idea of something for nothing. If | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
somebody has not been paid them a national minimum wage, why should | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
they be charged to ensure they get that money back Barack Obama if | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
someone has not been paid their proper wage, if somebody has been | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
discriminated against on grounds of modernity, disability, or pregnancy | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
related discrimination, to say that these are people looking for | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
something for nothing is outrageous and it takes me back to the time | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
when I was an employment lawyer acting for these people that the | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
honourable member dismisses in such a cavalier fashion. I remember the | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
first time I lodged a case after the fees were introduced, I lodged a | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
case and it said on the employment tribunal service website, customer, | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
please enter your cos -- credit card details. Isn't that shameful once we | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
start looking at our citizens attempting to assert their statutory | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
rights, whether it is the right for the minimum wage or not be | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
discriminated against, when we primarily see them as consumers and | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
not citizens attempting to assert rights made in this place and it | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
shows the priorities of our society and our justice system have been | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
warped by this government. I will give way. I am grateful to him, | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
would he agree with me that part of the difference of opinion here, of | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
course, is that some on the opposition benches apparently have | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
overlooked the fact that employment tribunal is a very often brought by | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
people who have no job, they have no income, that is why they are | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
bringing a tribunal case. It is very different from a big commercial | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
dispute where one pays court fees for access to justice. Tribunal fees | :02:38. | :02:47. | |
to people with no job is the substance of the reason they have a | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
tribunal. This is a very important point indeed. People are being | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
charged employment tribunal fees that exceed the underpayment of the | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
wage about which they are complaining, so that really | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
discourages claims. He is failing to mention that this was a policy which | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
was designed, in part, to have more cases conciliators, and now instead | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
of 23,000 cases a year going to a case, 92000 and half of them are | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
resolved, and of course that is free. The objective of the Coalition | :03:24. | :03:33. | |
Government in introducing employment Tribunal fees was to strengthen the | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
hand of employers, including unscrupulous employers, and weaken | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
the hand of the individual employees and that is why it is a policy that | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
from the perspective of the government has worked. That is what | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
it was about, and as for ACAS conciliation, the ACAS conciliation | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
offered now is compulsory conciliation and it isn't the same | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
as the role of ACAS in the past when people have issued an employment | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
tribunal case. There is no professional advice given on the | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
value of the case and just because a claim has been not issued or a match | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
has been discontinued, doesn't mean there has been resolved | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
satisfactorily and both parties on an equal footing. To make it clear, | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
Labour would abolish employment Tribunal fees because Labour | :04:21. | :04:28. | |
believes in access to justice. The honourable member shakes his head. | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
He shakes his head, but the honourable members comments earlier | :04:36. | :04:37. | |
about people looking for something for nothing shows how out of touch | :04:38. | :04:45. | |
here's so I will give way. I am suggesting that the honourable | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
gentleman 's policies giving something for nothing. Morvan | :04:49. | :04:56. | |
implicit in the honourable gentleman 's ill considered comments are the | :04:57. | :05:05. | |
fact that to allow people to seek justice in the employment courts | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
without paying money is something for nothing. That is a disgraceful | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
comment and I look forward to publicising it as widely as we can. | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
The government needs to think again when it comes to employment tribunal | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
fees. If we move from a system where very many cases go to the industrial | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
tribunal, the employment tribunal, to one where most cases are | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
conciliators, what is wrong with that? It is a much easier way for | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
people to get justice? The problem is that the prize that is being paid | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
is the price of access to justice and to ask at least on this side of | :05:49. | :05:56. | |
the house that is unacceptable. Is the government seriously contending | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
that 70% of claims brought before 2013 were somehow fraudulent? If so, | :06:02. | :06:10. | |
that is absolutely outrageous. Can my friend repeat the figures because | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
I thought you said round terms that after these changes there were | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
500,000 fewer cases and the Minister has indicated that 70,000 more cases | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
go to arbitration, that is a big gas and still over 400,000 people who | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
aren't getting access to justice. That is right. That is completely | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
right, and the final point I will make on this subject before I move | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
on to courts and tribunal closures is that employment tribunal fees, | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
the introduction of them, have harmed not only those who would | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
bring a case but it has harmed those who would never dream of bringing a | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
case, the reason being that if their employer knows there is virtue no | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
chance if they break the law of an employee bringing a case against it | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
actually gives a green light to one scrupulous employers because they | :06:58. | :06:59. | |
know that the risk is so much diminished of them being held to | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
account and this goes to the root of what access to Justices. Legal | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
rights are basically worthless if you can't enforce them, if you can't | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
rely on them for reason of lack of resource or any other on the subject | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
of courts and tribunal closures, to government programmes in marked a | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
total of 243 courts and tribunal 's foreclosure and this has obvious and | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
long-lasting effects on the principle of local justice. The cuts | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
have led to an increased number of people forced to represent | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
themselves and as far back as 2014 figures such as the Lord Chief | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
Justice Lord Chief Thomas were warning of the rise of unrepresented | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
litigants, of litigants in person. The Justice committee in 2015 in its | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
report into the impact of this said that the result is that the courts | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
are having to expend more resources to assist litigants in person and | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
require more funding to cope. We know that and we know that litigants | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
in person clog up the system and actually make the court system less | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
efficient. We, members of parliament, know as well that from | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
our advice Sissons at the weekend is that they are full of people who | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
need a lawyer but cannot get one. Ministers seem to treat the | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
involvement of lawyers and potential litigation is fundamentally a bad | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
thing. This misses much of the point. Those honourable members who | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
ever needed to use a lawyer, those who have ever been lawyers | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
themselves, will know the valuable role lawyers play in dissuading | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
clients from ill-advised litigation, from encouraging fair settlement | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
where possible, and settlement that is fair and beneficial to the client | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
and in shortening the length of proceedings in court. To that end, | :08:58. | :09:06. | |
the probation contained in part two of cross-examination of the abuse by | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
the abuse is of course very, very welcome. The stark evidence from | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
groups such as a women's aid is that this gap in the law was being used | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
as a further means of control and a further means of abuse. Yet, despite | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
the fact that we very much welcome this measure, it cannot be left | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
unsaid that the reason that this problem became so pronounced it was | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
because of the government 's legal aid cuts. It is very damaging and | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
profound way that exacerbated a very serious problem. The body of family | :09:41. | :09:49. | |
solicitors make it clear that the impact of this has led to an | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
increase in litigants in person, meaning we have seen a rise in the | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
number of defendants cross-examining those that they have abused. | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
To turn to the subject of modernisation. Few would disagree | :10:03. | :10:11. | |
the court system needs modernising and digitising. Some would say it is | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
in more need of modernisation than this place. But there remains too | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
much paper involvement when technology has made it possible for | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
much documentation to be stored and amended using tablets and the like. | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
Technology alone doesn't demolish barriers to access to justice, it | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
can exacerbate the risks. Madam Deputy Speaker, we favour | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
streamlining justice and reducing unnecessary court hearings and | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
recognise that part two of this Bill seeks to achieve that. But as the | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
chair of the bar Council has warned, the fact that online courts, in his | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
words, might encourage defendants to plead guilty out of convenience when | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
in fact they may not be guilty of an offence in a matter how small, risks | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
injustice. We have to be mindful of that. The Law Society also issued a | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
caution in its briefing on this Bill, saying although we welcome the | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
introduction of these measures as a way to improve efficiency, there are | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
serious risks associated with them in the absence of adequate access to | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
legal advice. Safeguards must be in place to ensure that the defendant | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
is aware of the consequences of indicating that plea in writing and | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
other measures highlighted above. Madam Deputy Speaker, online courts | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
again present the opportunity for a modern and desirable way of using | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
technology to reduce court hearings and deal with preliminary matters | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
and hopefully an efficient way. The Law Society again in its briefing | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
cautions that online convictions should be thoroughly tested and | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
reviewed before being expanded. We therefore hope the Government will | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
be open to amendments which allow for reviews to take place after a | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
specified time, which would seem sensible to do so. Virtual hearings, | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
procedures on papers only and written plea and mode of trial | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
procedures will all need to be reviewed in time. The Government | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
needs to give closer consideration to safeguards and we will seek to | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
achieve those safeguards. In relation to whiplash... The | :12:19. | :12:26. | |
clauses contained in part five of this Bill will have come as a relief | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
to many. The Government has backed away from increasing the small | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
claims limit across personal injury, and that is indeed welcome. But the | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
Government, as we know, sees the personal injury lawyer lurking | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
around every corner. The Minister for courts and tribunals even | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
mistook me for a personal injury lawyer! There is a former personal | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
injury lawyer behind me, although he only has one job now... But the | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
Association of Personal Injury Lawyers made clear in written | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
evidence to the justice committee that even when whiplash statistics | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
are combined with the number of injuries registered by insurers as | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
neck and back injuries there has been, as I said earlier, a | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
significant fall of 11% since 2011-12. There are profound problems | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
which exist with the tariff system proposed. As the Government has | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
accepted, the amount it set out elsewhere are low but too low. | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
Companies -- compensation must be in line with the extent of the injury. | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
When taken together in the increase of the small claims to ?5,000, all | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
victims of road traffic accidents, not only victims of whiplash, would | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
not be entitled to recover legal costs where the compensation does | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
not exceed ?5,000. That will inevitably deter people from | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
accessing legal representation and deter genuine claims. So the | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
Government should consider, Madam Deputy Speaker, ensuring victims of | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
road traffic accidents are able to recover their legal costs. | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
We've heard repeatedly, and it's a subject we touched upon earlier, | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
that the proposals in the Bill will lead to reduced premiums by as much | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
as ?40 a year on average. The Law Society has questioned the accuracy | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
of these figures. It says that the pass rates on which they are | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
predicated are difficult to predict and it is unclear how the 85% | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
savings rate has been calculated. As my honourable friend made the point | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
in his intervention earlier, it's a matter of evidence, or in this case | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
lack of it. Most obviously there is no mechanism by which insurers can | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
be made to pass on any savings to consumers. We hear a lot of insults | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
thrown at the British people about a rampant claims culture, about people | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
being on the make and on the fiddle. We here a lot less about the | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
behaviour of some insurers when it comes to saving to defend weak | :14:58. | :15:05. | |
claims and we hear a lot less about how much the insurance industry are | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
making out of all of this. And only a tiny minority of companies, by the | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
way, insurance companies, have said they will pass on any savings. | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
So, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Government needs to take action to | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
win those guarantees. And to conclude, I will look forward to the | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
remainder of the debate today. As I started by saying, Labour does not | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
oppose the Bill at second reading but we do lament that it lacks so | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
much. I'd suggest that the Bill itself must transform, if the Bill | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
is to transform. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I | :15:42. | :15:53. | |
start by thanking the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State | :15:54. | :16:00. | |
for the courtesy she has shown to me as chair of the select committee, in | :16:01. | :16:02. | |
keeping me appraised as to the progress of this Bill. It is very | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
welcome. Although there have been occasions that when the select | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
committee has come up with constructive criticism or | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
counterintelligence to the Government throughout the | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
ministerial team you engage with this positively. I welcome the deal | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
and the tone of my right honourable friend's speech very much indeed. | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
This is an important Bill and it's important for a number of reasons. | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
Firstly because it deals with some very important topics. Secondly, | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
because it is wide enough in scope to merit acting as a framework for | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
further improvement as we go forward. | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
I will start with prisons, with your permission, but I will confine | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
myself to that. Prisons is obviously the most significant issue that sits | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
upon the right honourable lady's agenda and it is the matter of | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
greatest concern to the Justice select committee. We issued a number | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
of reports in the course of this Parliament, as we did in the | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
previous one, about the situation in our prisons. Let's be blunt, the | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
situation is grim. That is not the doing of my right honourable friend | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
but something that has grown over a number of years and under the watch | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
of governments and different political complexion is as well. We | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
do now need to tackle this as a matter of real urgency. | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
There are a number of factors, no simple reason why we have got into | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
the difficulty we have in our prisons and similarly there is no | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
single silver bullet as to a solution either. One that is in the | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
Bill is a very valuable and worthwhile framework on which to | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
hang a wider suite of reforms. I hope very much that my right | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
honourable friend will take courage to be bold and radical in those | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
reforms. My side of the House should not be | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
afraid of being advocates of prison reform. It is a fundamental and | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
important social cause and I'm proud to be a member of a party that has a | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
long tradition of advocating social reform running back through | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
Wilberforce, through Shaftesbury, through the reforming work of | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
Richard 's cross, his Home Secretary and of others. The right honourable | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
lady takes on the proposals of my right honourable friend the member | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
for Surrey Heath, follows in a radical Tory tradition and it's one | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
I welcome and one we should not be afraid to make the case for. Of | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
course I will give way. He's making available contribution | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
and I agree about the many merits of this Bill. Does he not agree with me | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
it is a missed opportunity, in terms of improving the opportunities for | :18:48. | :18:55. | |
prisoners, improving the deadlock reducing the rates of reoffending by | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
not having improving and protecting the rights, the mental health of | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
prisoners on the front page of the Bill in clause one? | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
It's a perfectly fair point my honourable friend makes. I imagine | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
it's going to be almost impossible to put every single objective upon | :19:14. | :19:15. | |
the face of the Bill and I suspect it will be set by ministers that | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
these are intended to be the broad and overarching objectives. But the | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
issue of mental health in prisons is a most profound and important one. I | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
would have no objection were it to be on the face of the Bill, but | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
equally I think the most important thing is the political goodwill of | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
ministers to ensure that within the frame arc of the Bill, even as it | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
currently stands, it remains a top priority. I hope he and I and others | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
who share this concern across the House will be able to work hard to | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
make sure that is delivered. That is part of the reason that we | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
need to tackle prison reform. Part of what we seek to do is give a | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
legal framework. Part of that itself is in the Bill. The rest of it, in | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
important measures, is set out in the white paper, which was a very | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
significant and progressive document in the right sense of the world. Let | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
me make this point... -- right sense of the word. What we need across the | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
House to recognise is that we must have political will to tackle | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
reform, and that includes creating a climate of public opinion that | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
accepts that political reform is not a soft option, it is not something | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
that is done out of a kind of soft-headed liberalism on doing | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
good... It is done first sound and profound social, moral and ethical | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
reasons and also brings with it real societal and economical benefits. I | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
will give way. Thank you for giving way. As he will | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
be aware, the white paper set out a whole range of proposals to deal | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
with increasing violence, increasing self harm and persistently high | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
levels of reoffending. Given that we know, as he outlined in his remarks, | :21:03. | :21:11. | |
the profound connection between poor mental health of prisoners on those | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
issues, including substance misuse, which is often linked with poor | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
mental health, it does seem very surprising to me that in clause one | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
that is not on the face of this Bill a mention of improving the mental | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
health of prisoners. I suspect my honourable friend will | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
return to that topic as the Bill makes its progress and there may be | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
other opportunities for others to do so as well. Certainly, in the course | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
of our ongoing enquiries into prison reform, the select committee has | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
already taken some evidence in relation to the difficulties of | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
mental health provision. We had practitioners, and give evidence to | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
us recently and that is certainly a topic we will want to return to and | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
I know others may address in the course of this debate. I will give | :21:57. | :21:58. | |
way to my honourable and landed friend. | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
Thank you to my friend for giving way. He mentioned that the need for | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
political will. He is correct in saying so, but if you ask members of | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
the public, both on an individual basis but on a more organised basis, | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
what they think about the current state of our prisons on what they | :22:19. | :22:20. | |
think needs to be done in our justice system, they are much more | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
liberal than politicians give them credit for. We need to be braver and | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
get on with this, rather than allow ourselves to be pushed around by | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
various, shall we say, disobliging organs to the media who want us to | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
be more and more Draconian in the way we deal with prisons. | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
My honourable friend is absolutely right. He moves me very neatly onto | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
the next thing I was almost about to say, because that political will | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
does require us, sometimes, to stand up against the writers of Bellerin | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
headlines and those who actually pose as voices of public opinion but | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
actually seek to be manipulators of it. I'd actually say the truth is in | :23:07. | :23:14. | |
everybody's interest that we reduce reoffending because the more we do | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
that, the fewer victims that are of crime. That is in everybody's case a | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
good right of centre and left of centre case for reform and we shall | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
make it across the House. I will give way to the honourable lady | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
opposite first. Thank you. Would the honourable | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
gentleman agree that one of the ways we could actually dramatically cut | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
reoffending would be if we looked at how many people are revolving door | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
entrance in and out of prison, not because of criminal intent but | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
because of their mental health condition drives them to behave in a | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
way that actually leads them inevitably into the arms of the | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
police, because they are becoming the social workers for the mentally | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
ill, and into the criminal justice system rather than to our | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
psychiatric hospitals that are massively overcrowded and | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
underfunded. The honourable for lady makes a very fair and reasonable | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
point. That is a significant factor. I practised as a criminal lawyer for | :24:13. | :24:20. | |
the better part of 30 years. I both prosecuted undefended, so I had no | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
compunction about sending away people who have committed serious | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
crimes, but equally when I defended people, and when I looked at some of | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
those whom I prosecuted in the course of that career, there were | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
some people who were dangerous, were unpleasant and in some cases | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
downright evil and they deserved to go to prison and is deserved to go | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
to prison for a very long time. There were others who were weak and | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
who were stupid. Some who were greedy and sometimes, particular for | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
those who were greedy, that to deserved punishment and prism is | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
appropriate for that, but there were also those who were weak, who were | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
vulnerable, who found themselves in a situation where they were easily | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
coerced. People who have made a series of errors in the course of | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
their lives. People who suffered either from mental, physical or | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
other illness or real other social pressures around them, and we do | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
have to be much more discriminating and sophisticated in the way in | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
which we deal with defendants in our justice system. | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
I will make this point first and then I will give way to our | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
honourable friend. Present doesn't always work, it works for some | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
people but not for everybody all of the time and we have to be a rave | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
enough to have a political debate to say that and as my honourable | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
learned friend the former Solicitor General rightly says, the public are | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
much more alert and that and realistic about that and much more | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
willing to buy that argument. We just simply need to have the courage | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
to make it. I will give way. I am not entirely sure where my | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
honourable friends go out in an evening during the day, I am not | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
sure lawyers dinner parties reflect public opinion at large, but would | :26:12. | :26:19. | |
my honourable friend accept that since Michael Howard started the | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
trend of sending more people to prison the crime rate has fallen, so | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
what would my honourable friend make about that direct correlation | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
between the prison population going up in the crime rate going down? I | :26:31. | :26:38. | |
rather suspect I have met a broader selection of society then you can | :26:39. | :26:46. | |
meet in the average bookmakers! 's I think we can sometimes have to be | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
prepared to stand up and challenge the stereotypes were ever in the | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
political spectrum they come from. It diminishes the value of prison if | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
we adopt a knee jerk approach to locking people up and throwing away | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
the key is always the best solution in all circumstances. It is for the | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
dangerous. I had no compunction as saying that those involved in the | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
Brinks mat trial in which I was involved deserve to go away to | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
prison for very long times. One was later convicted of murder and a very | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
serious murder indeed and I hope they stay in prison for a very long | :27:24. | :27:30. | |
indeed. Equally those who commit crimes to feed drugs habits aren't | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
not served by lengthy prison sentences, nor to the point the | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
public is not served in the long run because the real difficulty that we | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
face is theirs. We incarcerate more people per hundred thousand of | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
population than virtually any other of our western European comparators. | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
It is more than Spain, more than France, which has a very similar | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
demographic and social logical economic problems and indicators to | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
ourselves. They are a good comparator in many respects. We have | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
over 140 per 100,000 of population, France about 98 per hundred thousand | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
population. I will make this the point before I give way to my | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
honourable friend. We shall bear in mind that our rate of incarceration | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
is practically double that of Germany, a country very similar to | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
ourselves and many other respects. That cannot be because of some | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
inherent greater criminality on the part of the British people, it is | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
simply that we do not perhaps at the moment have a sufficiently | :28:40. | :28:40. | |
sophisticated suite of alternatives to custody to give, if you like, a | :28:41. | :28:49. | |
robust and publicly acceptable alternative so sentences often feel | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
obliged to fall back on custody. Another point about reminded that | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
when people are in custody generally Germany and the Netherlands in | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
particular are able to do a better job of rehabilitation because their | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
reoffending rates are much lower. That is why short sentences, I think | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
the government recognises as much as other, -- commentators, very seldom | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
have a positive effect on the government are right and to be | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
commended in saying that we need to look at prison reform in terms of | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
what happens imprisons and we also need to look at what happens when | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
people come through the great -- Gate and the support they get in the | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
community and also at what diversionary activities can be put | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
in early on when people come into contact with the criminal justice | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
system to make sure they proceed no further down that path. It is a | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
holistic approach and the government is right in that regard. He has been | :29:40. | :29:46. | |
typically gracious and kind, but notwithstanding the point he made, | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
the fact that the matter is that for every 100 -- every 1000 crimes | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
committed in this country only about 19 are sent to prison which is one | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
of the lowest ratios of every single country in the world and perhaps you | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
could tell us which countries have a lower ratio of people get sent to | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
prison per 1000 crimes committed, because that is the best measure of | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
how many criminals we sent to prison, rather than the population | :30:10. | :30:16. | |
percentages. My honourable friend perhaps neglects to say that | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
reporting arrangements are very different in other countries, | :30:21. | :30:22. | |
particular when we deal with younger people in the criminal justice | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
system so the diversion work that is often carried out in those countries | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
in a different way does not give that kind of correlation. I would | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
also point out it is not just in Europe. A number of the states in | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
the United States, which we don't always think, particularly current | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
circumstances, of being a beacon of social progressiveness, are actually | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
more effective than we are in terms of rehabilitation, in terms of | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
meaningful community penalties, and in terms of making sure the Siders | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
is lower. Some of those, I might add, are carried out on the watch of | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
republican governors. There was actually a cost for money base -- | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
case for imprisoning fewer people as well as a social outcomes case so we | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
ought to be prepared to make the case for prison reform is being a | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
very important objective of any government. That is why the bill, I | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
think, is an important step in achieving that and of course there | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
is a lot more that is not in the bill that we need to work on. In | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
terms of the bill itself, the statutory purposes a good one. I | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
honour -- I understand my honourable is friend 's friend point about what | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
goes into it but the balance between safety of the public and the inmate | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
with reform rehabilitation and improvement is I think the | :31:46. | :31:47. | |
overarching set of principles to have. The new duties on the | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
Secretary of State are important and I suspect they are justiciable but | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
nonetheless it is important that we have proper accountability | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
mechanisms. In particular the new power for the Chief Inspector of | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
Prisons, to actually have the right to have a response to his report is | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
especially important. The current Chief Inspector is an excellent | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
appointment. I have had the privilege of shadowing his team when | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
they carried out a prison inspection which happened to be my right | :32:22. | :32:23. | |
honourable friend the Justice Secretary 's local prison at Norwich | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
and I have seen a thorough and professional they are about it but | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
as she will know and the prison principles will know and we know on | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
the select committee, one of the great centres of frustration that he | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
has is that repeatedly in some cases the bulk, not just a few, but the | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
overwhelming majority of his recommendations are not taken on | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
board so the ability to make sure that they are taken and a proper | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
reason is given why not is very important because too many it is the | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
same serial offenders at prisons that come around time and time again | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
who reckon their recommendations are being ignored. This is an important | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
legal step that underpins progress on the point has already been made | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
about the prison probation 's ombudsman and I agree with that | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
entirely. These are, I think, important and welcome measures as | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
far as the prisons and dimension is concerned, as are the issues around | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
new psychoactive substances and interference with mobile phones. | :33:24. | :33:25. | |
These are all important steps forward. In terms of the rest of the | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
bill, the modernisation of court proceedings is important and I think | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
it is valuable. I think is the one thing that really to say is that I | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
hope the government has the bill goes forward will bear in mind some | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
of the caveats raised by practitioners, in particular the bar | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
Council and the Law Society but also criminal bar Association and the | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
criminal solicitors Association to make sure we do not have any | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
unintended consequences. It is important when we are dealing with | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
things that potentially give rise to a conviction online people do have | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
the resource to make an informed decision both in relation to the | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
play and that means of election and so forth. Having access to that is | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
important. It can be very useful to all and I know the judiciary believe | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
it could be a good tool but it is important that we have an informed | :34:12. | :34:20. | |
decision on and the result of guilty pleas online is an obvious one in | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
terms of that. Similarly we need to make sure that when there are | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
virtual hearings taking place there is often a very good case of it but | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
it shouldn't drift in it to being a default position. You do not have | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
that for a trial but you can think of other forms of interlocutory | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
proceedings as well aware that could be appropriate and we need to make | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
sure we do not have too broad a brush approach to that but I think | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
the principle is good and we do not have any problem with it. Looking | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
again at some of the remaining matters, chapter eight, the whole | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
question of dealing with the abuse of the situation with litigants in | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
person and family cases and I think the cases accepted across the piece. | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
It has worked well in the criminal jurisdiction for many years now and | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
I hope when we set up the system in regulations as to how this works | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
there won't be an attempt to overcomplicate or engineer it, if I | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
would urge my right honourable friend to take as far as possible | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
the criminal system to lifted across with adjustments that would seem to | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
be a sensible weight and a point that has been made by practitioners | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
is when advocates are asked to take this on under half of the court, | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
into effect, they take on what is often a very heavy burden because | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
the instructions can be detailed and complex and in my experience in | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
these kind of cases they will frequently change as well by the | :35:38. | :35:48. | |
nature of the person you are dealing with and so it is not an easy task. | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
I hope therefore that the rates of remuneration will not be any worse | :35:52. | :35:53. | |
than you get in the criminal jurisdiction. We want the people | :35:54. | :35:55. | |
undertaking this work. Judicial appointments we have referred to and | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
I think that is important. That it is also important that we bear in | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
mind that leadership roles do need to be recognised, given the | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
difficulty that we are having at the moment in recruiting proper High | :36:05. | :36:11. | |
Court judges. Moving then onto the whole question of part five and | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
whiplash, I don't think we can pretend that there is not an issue, | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
and I will be finishing now, this is the fine a point upon which the | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
select committee is already as evidence and we will want to take | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
some more. They think no one can reasonably pretend there is not an | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
issue around whiplash. There are disputes as to the strength of the | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
evidence and that was the result of the heroes that we had. I'm glad the | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
government has moved to a tariff system rather than an outright | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
prohibition on general damages and I think there is some devil in the | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
detail that we may need to consider as we go along. It is around the | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
definition of what whiplash is, within clause 61 and the subclauses | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
and also at the moment there is a tariff system for breach of | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
statutory duty. One can, of course, and practitioners have raised this | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
with me, envisage a number of circumstances in which it is | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
possible to play both negligence and breach of statutory duty as | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
alternatives, and it might be self-defeating if actually we get a | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
sort of an industry in which people seek always to put in an alternative | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
head of claim to take it immediately out of the pure negligence category. | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
Some careful drafting many to be considered to look at the practical | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
effects as far as that is concerned and above all we also need not to | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
allow this to cause us to take our eye off the ball about the abuse of | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
claims management companies. There is work already being done between | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
the ministry and the Commissioner 's office but a lot of problems stems | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
from the claims management companies so on that basis I wish the bill | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
well and it is an important and valuable bill and I am sure there | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
will be lively and constructive debate going forward and I think | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
myself and other members of the select committee will as appropriate | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
endeavour to assist the government in order to make a good bill better | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
and I wish you well in its passage through the house. In order to be | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
helpful to members we have 19 members wishing to speak, and when | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
we worked that out just roughly, if people can respect themselves to | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
about ten minutes it shouldn't be necessary to put any time limits on. | :38:21. | :38:27. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I had assumed that I would be summing up for the | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
SNP at the end of the debate. Would that be OK with the chair? | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
Absolutely fine if he wants to resume his seat! Harriet Harman. | :38:37. | :38:54. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This bill gives the house, the | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
Secretary of State, and her prisons minister, the chance to do something | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
which should have been done a long time ago, but which is now urgent. | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
That is to end the death toll of suicidal mentally ill people who | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
take their own lives in our prisons. When the state takes someone into | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
custody we have a duty to keep them safe. Their life becomes our | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
responsibility, and yet prisons are not a place of safety. Last year 12 | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
women and 107 men took their own lives while in prison in the custody | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
of the state. The build this government has brought forward | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
affords us the important opportunity to change the law to prevent these | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
tragic deaths and we must seize that opportunity because the problem is | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
urgent and it is growing. We all know the issue of prison reform is | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
not one which brings people out onto the streets or which tops the agenda | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
at election time and unfortunately I wish I could agree with the | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
honourable member who has just spoken, much of which I did agree | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
with him, the chair of the Justice select committee, but when I think | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
it rises up the agenda it is usually not in the cause of liberalising | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
prison regimes but because of demands to make them more Draconian | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
and that makes the job of the Secretary of State and her prisons | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
Minister in any governor -- the government particularly challenging, | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
which is why where it is possible cross-party approach to this is | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
important and why the committee which I have the honour to chair, | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
the joint committee on human rights, which is both cross-party and | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
comprised of members from both this house the House of Lords is | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
conducting an enquiry into suicides in prison. | :40:41. | :40:52. | |
As Mark Saunders, the father of Dean, told committee earlier this | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
month, we don't have capital punishment in this country, yet, | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
when Dean was sent to Chelmsford prison, he was sentenced to death. | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
So, too, it was to die Watlington, whose mother in arms came to | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
Parliament to give evidence to our committee. -- Diane. She set fire to | :41:16. | :41:28. | |
a mattress, was sent to Peterborough prison had to go live. The tragedy | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
of suicide in prison is not new. As the Government acknowledges, it is | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
worsening. Last year, the number of self inflicted death rose by 32%. It | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
is not that this is a new problem, or even one where no one knows what | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
to do. There have, over the years, been numerous weighty reports, which | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
members of this house, members of the House of Lords, judges and many | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
others have contributed to, which have analysed the problems and | :41:59. | :42:06. | |
mapped out solutions. Successive governments have welcomed their | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
proposals, changed policy, a huge new guidelines, but nothing changes | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
except the death toll, which rises. In 1991, we had the wool trouble. In | :42:18. | :42:26. | |
2007, the Corston report. -- Wolf Report. The Bradley report Adalat | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
Andy Harris reports. It's just that we don't -- it is not what we don't | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
know what to do, it's just that we haven't done it. There's no point in | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
having more reviews on new policies or guidance. What is needed is to | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
make sure the changes we all know are needed actually happen in | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
practice. For that to happen, what is needed is a legal framework that | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
will ensure the necessary changes take place because they are required | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
by statute. Reports and guidance, and white papers are not | :43:06. | :43:13. | |
enforceable. And are not... The war is. This is the opportunity to boot | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
into law the changes required. -- law. -- put into law. Because this | :43:20. | :43:29. | |
bill is before we have now, I ask you didn't consider a of new clauses | :43:30. | :43:37. | |
in his in order to put into law the following. There should be a legal | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
maximum of four the number of prisoners at prison officer. When | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
there is not enough staff, sometimes not just two prison officers on a | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
wing of 150 prisoners will stop prisoners remain locked in their | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
cells, medical appointments and educational sessions are missed. | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
They don't get to see the nurse for their medication. Call girl and | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
answers, prison officers then have the time to unlock them for | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
exercise, let alone sit down and get to know the prisoners and, in the | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
vacuum, the worst of the prisoners take charge. Staff become the moral | :44:12. | :44:21. | |
light and defensive, prisoners are at risk. The most vulnerable at | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
risk. You can copy and other people going to prison or the increased the | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
number of prison officers. What the Government has been doing is cutting | :44:30. | :44:37. | |
the number of prison officers while prisoners increase. You can see a | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
clear correlation and in the falling number of prison officers and the | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
high number of prison suicides. I have put the graph 18 week just now, | :44:48. | :44:59. | |
which shows it very clearly. -- graph on a tweet. Unless this | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
changes, death will rise. We need to boot a maximum prison to prison | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
officer ratio. Secondly, a legal maximum time a prisoner can be kept | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
in SL. The governments agree that should be a maximum time prisoners | :45:14. | :45:22. | |
should be locked in their cells. -- cell. It should happen but it | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
doesn't. A legal obligation is required to make sure it does. A | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
legal obligation for the prison service to make sure that each young | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
person, prisoner or adult prisoner with mental health problems has a | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
key worker, whether it's a prison officer or someone else. What | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
matters is that there's an individual the cake was on the | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
ability to bring together all the information from the dagger. -- an | :45:46. | :45:58. | |
individual to bring the information together. Unless it's in the bill, | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
it won't happen. It will remain nothing more than a good intention. | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
Next, unless there's a specified reason that it should be the case, | :46:07. | :46:14. | |
the relatives of a suicidal prisoner should be informed of and invited to | :46:15. | :46:24. | |
take part in the safety reviews. ACCTs. The prisoner should be care | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
about the nose. The family of Dean Saunders says, far from being given | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
the jams to contribute to the measures to be enslaved, it wasn't | :46:35. | :46:41. | |
until the inquest -- the chance to keep him safe. There had been a | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
reviews conducted by Steph who didn't know Dean or anything about | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
him. -- staff. Next, a legal obligation to ensure all young | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
offenders and suicidal prisoners should be able to call a specified | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
ad approved member of their family. One of the most frightening thing is | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
for a prisoner who is suffering the misery and their mental illness is | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
being out of pot with their family. A gas grid, confused, mentally ill | :47:13. | :47:23. | |
prisoner. -- out of touch. Can stand, waiting for a phone call, | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
find their way through numbers. Then technology is perfectly balanced | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
enough now to have suicidal prisoners able to call home. Next, | :47:32. | :47:38. | |
where a prison any to be transferred to a mental hospital, then she'd be | :47:39. | :47:45. | |
a legal maximum time limit between the transfer. -- they are issued B. | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
If they are so ill they can stay in prison, that must happen right away. | :47:50. | :47:58. | |
-- they should be. Under the mental health guidance, that should be no | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
more than 14 days, but it often takes many months. That maximum time | :48:03. | :48:09. | |
limit should be laid down in all. -- law. If the minister said the six | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
things are too detailed and specific for law, I would say, look at the | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
law that apply to education, that apply to health. You will find their | :48:21. | :48:29. | |
legal position for -- provision for ratios, time limits, health | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
treatment. If it's good enough for education and the health service, | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
why not for our prisoners? If the Minister said that these issues | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
don't need to be in law all they can, or already in guidance, I | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
say... They could be in guidance, I say we've done that over and over | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
again and it hasn't worked. Now it's time it must be put into law. If the | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
Minister said these issues are more suitable for regulations and being | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
on the face of the bill, I'm sure I would have no objection to that. | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
Whether they are in primary or secondary legislation is not what | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
matters. What matters is that they should be grouped into law. I never | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
exactly what his civil servants will say when he goes back to his | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
apartment. Label saying it is unnecessary. All they will say it | :49:23. | :49:31. | |
can't be done. I would argue -- may well say. -- all they will say. | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
Being a minister is a great responsibility and relates. I know | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
he's committed to his ministerial role, then I have key will resist | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
the voices that will urge him to do no more than provide over this | :49:46. | :49:52. | |
wretched status quo. I ask the house to help the Minister do what needs | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
to be done by putting these proposed new clauses into the bill. Nothing | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
will bring back Dean Saunders and Diane Watlington, whose heartbroken | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
families gave evidence to Archimedes. Or any of the -- are | :50:08. | :50:20. | |
committees. We, in this house, have the chance to make this Bill Lee | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
Jenning point where we start costing lives. -- where are we stop costing | :50:26. | :50:35. | |
lives. He has an opportunity to make a difference and save lives. I hope | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
he will see that Chen 's and we must make sure he does. -- chance. I | :50:41. | :50:51. | |
congratulate the ministers on putting forward this point and I | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
very much appreciated the informative breathing and technology | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
demonstrations organised by my honourable friend for North East | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
Hertfordshire on the proposed re-forms. They were very helpful. On | :51:05. | :51:12. | |
many points of litigation policy, it moves in a pragmatic way. If I have | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
any overall concerns, they don't relate to general content, but we | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
need to give fuller context to some of its clauses and this I intend to | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
do with a view proposals. On whiplash, we need to keep in mind | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
that the proposals in part five of a policy held in 2010 to reduce a | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
compensation culture that has had a detrimental impact on our society. | :51:38. | :51:46. | |
In MOJ questions in March and today, it seems to question the existence | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
of compensation culture. Frankly, this was an issue which I thought we | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
had positively proven by the time of the last act in 2012, but it seems | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
the issue now is to be re-explained. To start, I would point out that you | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
will notice my honourable friend for Cambridgeshire pointed out earlier | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
that, hello accidents have fallen by 25 design, claims have increased by | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
one third. -- 25%. Incremental measures aimed at reversing this | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
trend. The key problem originated from the dynamic created by the | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
no-win, no fee provisions of Labour's access to justice act 1989, | :52:27. | :52:33. | |
which created an unreal marketplace. Cutting a long story short, by the | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
workings of Labour's act, these have become detached. This is because the | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
client would never directly had to pay any of the fees. So, it followed | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
that they would not care what those these were. Stand-by claims farmers | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
and aggressive gold collars. This was need a further example of Labour | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
supporting a something for nothing system. -- cold callers. To counter | :52:57. | :53:08. | |
this, we ended the accountability of success fees and prevented premiums | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
from the defendant. We moved onto referral fees and addressing cold | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
calling by Agence. We also toughened our care claims handlers. The | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
changes were to reduce insurance premiums by 25%, however it is vital | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
to keep an overall picture of what they congregated situation. For | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
instant, it is considered by the ABI that a lot of whiplash claims are | :53:36. | :53:44. | |
fraudulent. The fraud of figure used at the time was over 5%. I would be | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
interested to hear from the Minister said he believes that insurers are | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
prosecutors have now got the message on this and have opted their game on | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
taking more fraudsters to court. -- upped. I don't think cold calling | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
has been resolved and I want to hear from the Minister whether he has | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
further bosom in this regard. Another important aspect is the | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
small claims and personal injury cases, which is frankly well out of | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
date. All those complaining at the proposals, I would say that this | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
measure is being taken up now, rather than when it was first | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
considered, around 2012, and that shows how God of the Government has | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
been to take one step at a time. I fully support the governments's | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
proposal to increase the RCA limit to ?5,000, including more thoughts | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
before cases are taking. Could the Minister please say whether this | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
would be a requirement for consideration as it is general Small | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
Claims Court back with the use of the tariff not require this? The | :54:47. | :54:55. | |
other injury claims are from ?1000 to only ?2000 rather than ?5,000. My | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
understanding was that if only inflation were to be taken into | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
account, the limit would increase to about ?3000. I appreciate that the | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
change to the small claims limit is a matter for the very legislation | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
rather than in this Bill, there I had the Government might reconsider | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
this level. I recall putting up the general Small Claims Court from | :55:18. | :55:25. | |
?5,000 to ?10,000 and what was said by businesses -- small claims limit. | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
Has been good in practice. I would not attack it to seriously injured | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
accident survivors who need public and legal help, but rather more to | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
the matter of whiplash claims which are of an injuried oration of less | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
than two years and arguably waved through to settlement by insurers | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
who don't want because all other of dealing with each small claim. | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
The average compensation for a six-month injury claim is just under | :55:53. | :56:03. | |
?2000. I support the injury duration proposal but for it not to be taken | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
advantage of their needs to be a better system for organising medical | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
reports. At the moment offers to settle can be made without medical | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
reports, even though in 2014 changes were made to discourage the | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
practice. From now on there will be a ban on settling without medical | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
evidence which I think is to be welcomed. Another related area | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
contributing to the increase in insurance premiums relates to free | :56:28. | :56:36. | |
hire cars loaned out to accident victims. If the government looking | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
at this aspect? The overall saving for these proposals is ?40 per year | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
but this message has been somewhat dilutive by insurers. They are | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
saying that the proposed reduction to -0.75% of the discount rate is | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
applicable to personal injury lump sum payments will result in a | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
significant increase in premium amounts. Insurers are saying this | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
could be up to ?75. I appreciate that the law, not the Lord | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
Chancellor, sets the discount am pleased to see that the government | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
will now consult on and in -- alternative framework but one | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
wonders why the consultation could not have been handled together with | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
the bill. Having said that it is certainly the case that with this | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
bill the government is continuing the increment a bull fight back | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
against compensation culture and I think that is a very good thing. I | :57:27. | :57:33. | |
understand the point is the honourable member is making about | :57:34. | :57:36. | |
the whiplash culture. Does he not appreciate there is an area that the | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
bill does not cover, which is those rogue solicitors who pursue false | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
claims against individuals who have not been involved in car accidents, | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
claiming that they have, and that they had injured individuals, and | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
that it is virtually impossible, like an elderly couple in my | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
constituency, who were harassed therapy, and although there was no | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
evidence of injury the solicitor pursued became and the court threw | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
it out and the solicitors regulatory authority would look at death toll. | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
-- pursue the claim. I agree that Ford is an important part of the | :58:14. | :58:16. | |
overall aspect and the criminal site is not within the bill. I asked the | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
minister earlier if he could address that issue. At the time that was | :58:21. | :58:28. | |
considered that up to 7% of claims are fraudulent and I have now seen | :58:29. | :58:31. | |
that may be less than 1%. That would actually show that has been a | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
dramatic improvement but I would be interested to hear the government | :58:36. | :58:37. | |
view as to whether they accent that and whether they -- what they will | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
do about the 1% if it is that figure. The bill also has a wide | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
variety of proposals in terms of case management and the operation of | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
the courts, all of which taken together well, I believe, make for a | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
much more effective and modern and technology friendly system. Of | :58:54. | :58:56. | |
course the fact that the government is proposing to invest ?1 billion in | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
the courts will do much to assure they remain world-class. There will | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
be less courts but a much better service, I understand by 2022. I | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
hope that some of this money will be used to simplify processes and | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
facilitate nonlawyers ability to navigate the system. Could the | :59:14. | :59:16. | |
minister please give an indication of where the department has got to | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
in terms of using technology to assist litigants in person. In the | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
past technology was often disregarded because it was felt that | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
people did not see its use as delivering good justice as turning | :59:30. | :59:33. | |
up in person. I suggest that this view, particularly with young | :59:34. | :59:37. | |
people, is very out of date. We are moving to a situation where most | :59:38. | :59:38. | |
crime is likely carried out online crime is likely carried out online | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
so I welcome proposals such as to have automatic online convictions | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
with statutory standard penalties for a few criminal offences. I hope | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
this will be shortly reviewed, with the aim of extending the range of | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
offences, likewise enabling claimants to recover money owed | :59:55. | :00:01. | |
entirely online up to ?25,000 will save time and certainly help small | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
businesses. The extension of the use of virtual hearings is to be | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
commended in terms of protecting the vulnerable from those accused of | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
certain crimes, including rape, and also in terms of making justice and | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
efficient. How much more efficient to have police and electronically | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
brought in from the stations online rather than to have them hanging | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
around in court waiting for cases with nothing else to do. Having said | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
that we need good procedural Wilshere to keep the trial is fair, | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
I appreciate, and in some ways the technology is still being developed. | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
I was speaking recently to a criminal district judge who said | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
that he was all in favour of court cameras, except when they didn't | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
work, which was all too frequent for his liking. Apparently private | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
companies who dealt with bridging linkups act strictly to timetables | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
that sometimes do not tie in with the court timings. Are these types | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
of practical issues now going to be ironed out? Of course this will be | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
even more relevant as the act proposes that criminal cases could | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
be conducted virtually, that is where all court participants join | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
the hearing through a live link. The proposal to balance the tech | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
developments with an ability for the public and media tribute virtual | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
courts online is a good safeguard, and a modern reassertion of the old | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
principle that justice needs to be seen to be done. Finally I note that | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
the proposals to reorganise the magistracy and make it a unified | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
judiciary, this is, I believe, exactly right and will provide a | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
similar adaptability when the County Courts were unified and it will | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
actually enhance the concept of the magistrate as a nationally qualified | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
judge, rather than a person tied to a particular bench. I do think that | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
this is a bill that will do much to move our justice system into modern | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
ways of organisation and efficiency. I just want to focus on a number of | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
points in the bill and as my honourable friend for Leeds East | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
said in his opening remarks, the Labour Party will not oppose the | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
bill but that does not mean that we cannot take steps to try and improve | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
from ministers as to what the bill from ministers as to what the bill | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
means in practice, and what the impact of the bill 's provisions | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
mean in practice because like the minister I support the aims of | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
clause one of the bill which says prison is to protect the public, | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
rehabilitate and reform offenders and prepare prisoners for life | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
outside prison and maintain an environment that is safe and secure | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
and nobody can disagree with those objectives, but we do, Madam Deputy | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
Speaker, as indeed my right honourable friend for Camberwell and | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
Peckham said in an excellent speech, there are a number of challenges | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
that the current prison system faces, which are not challenges that | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
have come from nowhere, they have come from deliberate decisions from | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
government policy which the bill has an opportunity to at least look at | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
and potentially rectify. My right honourable friend covered some of | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
the statistics but they are worthy of repetition because we do have a | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
situation whereby now 76 of the prisons in the state, 60%, are | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
overcrowded, and deemed overcrowded by the prisons inspector. We have a | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
position whereby we have an increase of 39% in the number of deaths in | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
prison custody in the last year. We have an increase of 32% in | :03:27. | :03:34. | |
self-inflicted deaths, and we have a massive increase of 22% in the | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
number of self harm incidents reported. We have an increase in the | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
number of assaults on staff and on fellow prisoners by prisoner. If we | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
have an increase in the number of psychoactive substances that have | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
been found in prison. We have an increase in the number of mobile | :03:56. | :03:57. | |
phones that have been found in prison and are therefore getting | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
into prison and we have sadly, as has been mentioned by my honourable | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
friend, a reduction in the number of prison officers by 6335, 20 6% of | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
prison officers falling in their last seven years. These facts do | :04:15. | :04:22. | |
have, in my view, a link. The fact that we have a smaller number of | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
prison officers and we have the same number of prisoners in heaven -- | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
prison, and we had prisoners who for a range of reasons are more | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
difficult and more challenging and have been convicted very often a | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
more violent offences means that impact of the prison officer numbers | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
on those statistics is real and effective. I do not object, in fact | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
I support the aims of clause one of the bill, I think we do need to look | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
at what it means in practice and look to have a white Paper in | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
practice links to those objectives. My right honourable friend for | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
Camberwell and Peckham in that excellent speech has made some very | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
positive suggestions in relation to clause one. Timings in cell are | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
extremely important. We need to look at how we link in and establish | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
mechanisms to recognise and support people who have mental health | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
problems. I would add to her list one of family link and distance from | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
home. In the last 12 months I have had to constituency cases, never | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
mind anything else through being a member of the Justice committee, to | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
constituency cases where constituents of mine from North | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
Wales are in first of all the Isle of Wight, in a prison in the Isle of | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
Wight, and secondly in Norwich. The -- for those who do not know the | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
geography of this, the Isle of Wight is 273 miles from my constituency, | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
11 hours on a train. Knowledge is six hours on a train for my | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
constituency and four point five Hours Drive. -- Norwich. If one of | :05:52. | :05:59. | |
the key purposes is reform and rehabilitation surely contact with | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
family is critical to that achievement. I will give way. And | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
grateful. Will he not agree that those two examples could be | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
replicated, but even worse, when one is dealing with young offenders. | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
There are obviously fewer young offender institution that you often | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
find that youngsters are being passed around in the back of these | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
select boxes for hours and hours and hours after court hours and not get | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
into their final destination ant hill nearly midnight, and that is | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
not a good way to rehabilitate anybody. I support the honourable | :06:34. | :06:40. | |
gentleman 's comments. He will know and I know that these matters are | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
not easy to solve. They are difficult challenges to solve. Key | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
to the debate today is what can we do in relation to the bill to | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
perhaps potentially, as my right honourable friend has said, and the | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
question of family into part of the purpose, the statutory back-up of | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
the bill. I was prisons Minister for two years and one month and I know | :07:02. | :07:02. | |
it is difficult. It is a difficult job and difficult policy | :07:03. | :07:28. | |
to change. There are opportunities for us to look at it. In a time that | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
we have I hope the Minister will reflect on these matters steering | :07:33. | :07:34. | |
committee and look at how we can strengthen the objective is to | :07:35. | :07:36. | |
achieve the objectives of the clause with the actions that are taken. I | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
speak now on behalf of the Justice committee and I welcome the fact | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
that the inspectorate is clause two of the bill is being put on a | :07:43. | :07:44. | |
statutory footing. We recognise that the role in visiting places of | :07:45. | :07:46. | |
detention is now a positive development and we recognise and | :07:47. | :07:48. | |
support that the Chief inspector will have regard to the new | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
statutory purpose in prison and I particularly welcome the fact that | :07:52. | :07:53. | |
the government has to respond to the Chief inspectors recommendation | :07:54. | :07:55. | |
within 28 days if urgent or within 90 days with a general expects in | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
and that we have some scrutiny of what those inspections powers are. I | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
welcome the fact that the prisons and probation ombudsman will also be | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
put on a statutory footing and the clause is between four and 20 do | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
that in an effective way. The minister needs to take into account | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
the fact that the Justice committee has welcomed that and I also put | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
down an aspect of challenge that the government accepted the committee | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
recommendation in finalising the protocol on HMI P inspectorate, that | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
it would look at that protocol and produce a final protocol before this | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
bill was published in second reading and the committee was consulted in | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
January on draft protocol but as far as I am aware so far not one final | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
protocol has been agreed and not a final protocol has been published, | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
so I worked again in this developing discussion say that I welcome the | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
statutory footing but I think it is important that we have publication | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
of that protocol at an early stage so that we can look at that and | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
develop it accordingly. The protocol the Justice committee recommended | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
was over when you go on the relationship between the | :09:13. | :09:14. | |
inspectorate and the Ministry of Justice and it has not yet been | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
published. The draft has been published but we need to see in the | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
context of this debate what the relationship is. | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
I also just want to, given the time, talk a little bit about whiplash | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
because the Justice Committee again... This is a challenge for the | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
Minister and four Government, the Justice Committee listened to the | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
committee of insurers and the Association of legal professionals | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
dealing with whiplash cases. I have the say we were not convinced of the | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
governments's case to date. So I'm convinced where we of the | :09:53. | :09:54. | |
governments's case that we have now established a follow-up enquiry | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
which the Minister will have undoubtedly seen. This will call for | :09:59. | :10:07. | |
evidence on whiplash. We have as for now a full enquiry by the Justice | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
Committee with terms of reference and looking at the definitions of | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
whiplash and the prevalence of road traffic accidents with whiplash | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
related claims. Whether or not the governments's fraudulent whiplash | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
claims claims that up, whether they will regulate -- stack up. And | :10:25. | :10:33. | |
particularly to look at the impact of raising the small claims limit to | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
?5,000 for road traffic accidents/ small claims. While this is not in | :10:40. | :10:50. | |
the bill. Also, the role of claims management companies, which have not | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
really been torched on to date. The challenge for the Minister again is | :10:54. | :11:02. | |
when the committee and report stage that rack touched on. Hopefully | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
influencing that debate looking at these matters, the Minister as to | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
come forward and convince this house that the policy he is bringing | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
forward on a cross-party basis with the Justice Committee meet those | :11:17. | :11:18. | |
objectives because I'm still concerned that the claims the | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
Government has made about savings being passed on to motorists and | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
about the level of fraud in the system are not yet tested to the | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
extent of my satisfaction or indeed by the fact the Justice Committee is | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
looking at these matters to the cross-party Justice Committee which, | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
remember, has a conservative majority in it. The consultation | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
paper attached to this also sets out no rationales at all from employment | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
injuries and building reform of Will lash claims. -- whiplash. They stick | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
to the Chancellor last week and was told that the employment injury | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
aspect would be dealt with by SI at the completion of measures in this | :12:02. | :12:09. | |
bill by whiplash. The aspect of whiplash in the bill is the carrot | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
and the ability for the judge to enhance that by 20%. There is a | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
perfectly separate secondary legislation route for which the | :12:18. | :12:25. | |
small claims limit is raised or can be reduced. -- tariff. It is not in | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
this case. I have said to the Minister that they are not in the | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
bill, there's aspect, but a sense they are linked any sense at the | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
Government's consideration of whiplash and you pretty whiplash | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
will be linked in terms of approach to the... The wind of raising the | :12:45. | :12:56. | |
threshold for small claims limit 's is that it relates ?5,000 full load | :12:57. | :13:05. | |
traffic whiplash related claims. -- for road traffic. And then it is | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
?2000. What I'm saying is that the Justice Committee believes those two | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
matters still have a tangential link and that is why the Justice | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
Committee is looking at these provisions for whiplash as part of | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
the year in, it is linked into that the consideration of the employment | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
levels because they are very much aware that, as well as the potential | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
examination of the governments's case for whiplash, there needs to | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
be, at the same time, an examination of the governments's case for | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
industrial injuries and employment injuries. There are a myriad of | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
cases. I don't think now is the time, I'll do them at a later date, | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
but there are a myriad number of cases where industrial injury claims | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
would be detrimental the impacted by the change in the limit. Whilst that | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
is not directly in the Dell... Well, the Minister doesn't work any things | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
even influence I would again where people in my constituency depend on | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
that level of employment injury support to ensure they get justice | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
at work. --. We will return to that at a later date and the Minister is | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
looking quizzical. You will have an opportunity with my colleagues in | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
the Justice Committee to explain his proposals with those of whiplash in | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
the bill to the Justice Committee in due course. To finalise, I would say | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
this. The bill itself as a direction of travel which I think can be | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
supported and you'd be supported. However, the eve of this Bill is | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
what really matters. There are measures the Government can take to | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
improve the bill, reduce the poor indicators growing in their | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
disparity over the past few years over staffing and the type of | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
measures looking at the issues my right honourable friend and those at | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
the Justice Committee seeks the governments to look at a game. -- | :14:58. | :15:05. | |
again. Thank you. They say what a great pleasure it is to follow on | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
from the honourable gentleman who speaks with considerable authority | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
when he speaks in this house. May I also start off with repairing | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
members to -- referring members to the interest that I'm now a | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
practising solicitor all. I welcome this Bill. I firmly believe that we | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
have one of the finest if not the finest legal systems in the world. I | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
think the measures that are putting this Bill will ensure that we can | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
maintain our prominent position on the global legal system. I would | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
like to start off by making some comments as regard to the court | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
reform proposals. It's important to recognise that, when we talk about | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
access to justice, we don't mean access being in a physical building | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
called a court. That was an argument I had with many colleagues when I | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
was a minister in charge of call and I had to convey the bad news that | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
many courts where to close. -- courts. The member for Huntingdon | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
had to do likewise a few years beforehand. What this bill does is | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
fulfil what we said in that there are different ways of accessing | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
justice and call. -- courts. I always remember what an African | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
justice minister once said to me. He said he wanted to have a justice | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
system in his country whereby the people living in the villages | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
outside the capital city could access justice through their | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
smartphones. The world is moving on and it's good to see that we are | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
keeping pace with technology that goes with it. I particularly welcome | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
parts two and four of the bill, which deal with the court reform | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
measures. In the past, we have concentrated, all the legal system | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
have concentrated rather too much on process and procedure. But I'm very | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
pleased that this Bill puts the court user centre space and ensure | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
that we have a system that is good for them. The changes will mean that | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
the public who use the court will not necessarily mean to -- have to | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
spend huge time, cost or indeed have to spend their time physically | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
waking and hanging around in a court. -- waging. -- waiting. Having | :17:35. | :17:48. | |
hearings where no party is present in the courtroom. They attended by | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
telephone or video conferencing facilities. The provision of | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
evidence by video link is good for victims and witnesses, particularly | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
vulnerable witnesses and it has to be right that we can have prisoners | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
staying in prison from where they give a video evidence, rather than | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
the time, effort and cost of transporting them to court and | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
transporting them back. Which often leads to delay is because they get | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
caught up in traffic delays. Of course, the modern way of having | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
video conferencing facilities means that witnesses can easily give | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
evidence when they are overseas. It also means that lawyers then have to | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
hang around job outside the courtroom, waiting for ever and a | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
day until they get their ten minutes before the judge. For example, for a | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
bail application. What they can now do is that the barristers can do is | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
stay in their offices and the judges in their chambers, and they can | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
simply good a time when they were all speak and they can have their | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
ten minute conversation. And the bail application can go through. The | :19:01. | :19:08. | |
bill proposes that, whether -- where there are low level offences in the | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
majority are, and where offenders are charged with summary only known | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
violent offences, such as not having a TV licence, and where there is a | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
guilty plea, the offenders can be convicted and given standard | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
penalties by use of an online procedure. Effectively, what this | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
means is that people can come from the lottery of their sitting rooms, | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
using their smartphones, deal with access to justice. And deal with | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
these matters online. Of course, it is important to recognise that where | :19:42. | :19:50. | |
people need not guilty then, for them, the majesty of the court still | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
remains and they can have their court cases in the usual way. For | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
civil cases, I welcome the proposal that in civil cases, proclaimed up | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
to ?25,000, there will be simple, online hearings. -- for claims. It | :20:06. | :20:13. | |
is awarded to remember that some cases may have to go online -- | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
off-line. I'm therefore pleased that the bill provides for that and I | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
very much hope that, in this surge towards technological advances, we | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
will never keep that option where, for whatever reason, some cases do | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
have duly dealt with in the usual way and they will be done so. We | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
also have, at present, very complex forms, which are full of legal | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
language. They can be very difficult to deal with. I very much hope that, | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
as they used new forms and get online, that the justice system will | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
use the opportunity to make those forms easier and far more | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
user-friendly. I also hope that the Minister will recognise that not | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
everyone uses modern technology. Some people cannot use it. For | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
example, the elderly and some people who are disabled. I hope the | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
minister will be able to give us an assurance wager that, for those | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
people, it will still remain that there was the opportunity to speak | :21:25. | :21:32. | |
by phone to a person to person meeting as necessary because, | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
otherwise, we are denying access to justice for some people. I would | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
also urged the Minister to ensure that the technological advances that | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
we speak of are such that they are not rendered redundant. Very soon. | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
Advances in technology that we have are so vast that millions of pounds | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
spent to date can suddenly be spent on a system that is outdated in a | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
year or two. I very much I that even ensure his civil servants tried to | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
have a technological system which well how Al for easy adaptation to | :22:14. | :22:22. | |
more when and how they arise. -- will allow for. And that I had a | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
good cost. Part four of the bill, along with schedule 15, deals with | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
the judiciary and the judicial appointments commission. There are | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
various references to senior judicial appointments. I wish to | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
make a general point as regards to appointments. To be absolutely | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
clear, I believe, and I think most people do, that all judicial | :22:48. | :22:49. | |
appointments should be made on merit. That is crucial. That being | :22:50. | :23:00. | |
said, it is fair to say that we still need to make serious advances | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
in terms of having more women, more disabled people, more people from | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
ethnic minorities, more people from a variety of backgrounds, who hold | :23:10. | :23:16. | |
senior judicial positions. And I very much hope that the Ministry of | :23:17. | :23:24. | |
Justice and the judiciary and the judicial appointments commission, | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
will ensure that we continue to have a judicial system that is reflective | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
of the country at large. Sadly, there are still people who believe | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
that it is a question of the old boy network as to whether one gets | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
promoted to senior levels. It is a question of whether they belong to | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
the right dining clubs, golf club, whether they went to the right | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
school or the right university. And there are some people who simply | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
don't read full their names for senior positions -- put forward. | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
Because that is what they believe. Of course, much advance has been | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
made but I very much hope we will to persuade the candidates that they | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
should put themselves forward if they do believe that they may not | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
get through because of the old boy network. | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
The I am mindful of time, as far as prisons are concerned I welcome | :24:21. | :24:30. | |
section 21 that allows public communication providers to block the | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
use of unauthorised mobile phones in prisons. Frankly it is absurd that | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
this has not been done earlier, and it is high time that it was done. I | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
also welcome the provisions in section 22 that allow more powers to | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
test for psychoactive substances in prisons so that prison authorities | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
are able to respond quickly to new drugs. In prisons people are put | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
there because they have to be punished. We all recognise that it | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
is important that we have a regime of education and training so that | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
those individuals, when they are outside again, can play a useful | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
role to society. We rightly talk about education and training, but I | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
think we should talk as much about the health of those prisoners. | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
Particularly mental health. Colleagues from both sides of the | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
house had made reference to mental illness and I very much hope that | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
the minister will be able to give us assurances that it is an issue that | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
he will ensure is looked into to ensure that people who are genuinely | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
unwell, and suffering from mental illnesses, get the treatment that | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
they require in prison. I conclude by simply saying that I welcome this | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
bill and I am particularly pleased that notwithstanding some of the | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
differences that we have on the political divide, nonetheless there | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
was much that we agree on, and I wish the bill well as it progresses | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
through to eventual Royal assent. Thank you. I also welcome much of | :26:13. | :26:22. | |
the contents of this bill and I am very pleased to follow the | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
honourable member for North West Cambridgeshire and I particularly | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
endorse the comments he made in relation to judicial diversity. This | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
is a far reaching piece of legislation although as far as | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
prison reform in particular is concerned we have two into quite a | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
lot of the detail from the white Paper because as others have said, | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
the bill is relatively thin and I'm detailed but like others I very much | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
welcome the establishment of a new statutory purpose for prisons and I | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
also hope that as we take the bill through this house and the other | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
place that there will be opportunities to strengthen and | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
extend it. The Prison Reform Trust have suggested that the statutory | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
purpose should make explicit reference to standards of fairness | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
and decency and, given the problems that we face in our prisons today, | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
the exceptional amount of time that prisoners are landing in cells, | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
engaged, not engaged in purposeful activity, the disturbances that have | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
put in prison and staff safety at risk and the appalling mentor health | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
of many of those in our prisons, I very strongly endorse the need for a | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
purpose that captures those elements of fairness and decency. Like many | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
honourable members who have spoken today I expressed particular concern | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
and the need for good mental health care. At least three or 4% of | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
prisoners have a psychotic illness and 1014% a major depressive illness | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
and up to two thirds a personality disorder according to the Royal | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
College of psychiatrists and many prisoners are so unwell that prison | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
is utterly the wrong place to treat them. I have seen this very starkly | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
in handling a constituency case in the last few months, a case that is | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
really showing that the system doesn't work to ensure that | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
prisoners mental health is paramount. It is a case of a young | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
man accused of a very serious offences and who has been on remand | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
in Manchester prison since before Christmas. He is seriously psychotic | :28:23. | :28:29. | |
and prison is probably not the right price for him to have ever been sent | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
to and yet for months on no secure hospital bed has been found where he | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
can be securely and appropriately cared for so I very strongly endorse | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
the call of my right honourable friend from Camberwell and Peckham | :28:45. | :28:46. | |
that we should have statutory time limits in the bill in relation to | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
the length of time that someone who is so unwell could be kept in | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
prison. I think it is a very important measure that we need to | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
take to ensure parity of esteem between mental health and physical | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
health exist in our prisons, as it does more widely in our health care | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
system. We also know that women in custody have a high incidence of | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
mental health problems and this year we mark tenth anniversary of | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
Baroness Corston 's seminal report into women in custody and a real | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
opportunity I think to make a step change in the way the deal with | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
women in the penal system. The Justice Secretary said that she | :29:24. | :29:25. | |
intends to bring forward a strategy in relation to women in the next few | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
weeks and I very much look forward to looking at that and debating with | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
the government. Can I say to ministers, I hope that the | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
government will take this opportunity not simply to build more | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
new women's prisons far from home and too large to provide the right | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
regime for the particular needs of women. Baroness Corston suggested | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
the need for small and local secure units, not prisons, but those that | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
very particularly catered for the needs of women and this is such an | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
important and once in a generation chance for ministers to transform | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
the next gen are -- nature of the women's estate and I hope they will | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
not miss this opportunity. I am also concerned that the government seems | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
intent on new, large male prisons which I understand will have a | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
population of 2000 prisoners but there are evidence of small prisons | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
doing better according to the centre of social justice and the Prison | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
Reform Trust that showed that prisons with fewer than 400 | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
prisoners were more likely to form well than those with 800 and the | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
National Audit Office had a 2018 report that showed small prisons had | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
better ratings. What we don't know is whether there is a difference in | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
reoffending rates between small and large prisons and I would be | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
grateful to hear of anyone in the house can enlighten me on that. If | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
we don't have that information can I very strongly urge ministers to | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
conduct a programme of research to understand that. What we do know, | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
and my right honourable friend referred to this in detail is the | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
importance of family contact and incarceration a long way from home | :31:03. | :31:04. | |
naturally makes that more difficult and according to a 2008 study for | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
the Ministry of Justice family contact reduces recidivism by 39%, | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
that is a substantial reduction. A joint report from Her Majesty 's | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
Inspectorate of prisons and the youth Justice board found that boys | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
who suffered from emotional or mental health problems were less | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
likely to usually have a visitor at least once a week from family and | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
friends than those without mental health problems and yet half of | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
women and one quarter of many on remand receive no family visits. | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
Concentrating prisoners in larger prisons further from home, covering | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
large geographical areas will work against family contact which can | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
make such a difference and I will give away. I totally and utterly | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
endorse all of this speech, that sets out so tragically the fact of | :31:51. | :31:57. | |
women in prison and the difficulties of maintaining their family contact | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
and how often their children end up in care, or farmed out to family | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
members, who can't travel the long distance, particular view a Welsh | :32:10. | :32:11. | |
woman and you have to travel into England to get to see your mum in | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
prison and actually damages the family cohesion that we know is so | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
vital in terms of rehabilitation. I completely agree with my honourable | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
friend and we know that in particular for women in custody, it | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
is women who are usually the main carers of children and the | :32:29. | :32:30. | |
consequences can be devastating, not just for those women but for the | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
children who ought to be our paramount consideration. I support | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
calls which have been put forward by the prison rights and care trust | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
among others that it should be a requirement among sentences to | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
specifically ask about provision for the children of parents who are | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
about to be sentenced to custody, particularly to know where they will | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
spend our first night as their parent faces incarceration. Finally | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
on presents, Madam Deputy Speaker, if we're serious about prison reform | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
I believe we have to face the fact that our fundamental problem is | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
sentencing policy. We incarcerate too many people who don't need to be | :33:06. | :33:06. | |
there and it cost a great deal of and on release too many | :33:07. | :33:23. | |
resume offending. I could not agree more with the Lord Chief Justice -- | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
Lord Chief Justice who told the select committee last year that the | :33:27. | :33:28. | |
focus needs to be more rigorous more demanding effective community | :33:29. | :33:30. | |
penalties but those penalties must be available and sentences must have | :33:31. | :33:32. | |
knowledge and confidence in them and that cuts to budgets and | :33:33. | :33:34. | |
presentencing reports and problems with community rehabilitation. I | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
want to comment very briefly on the extensive proposals in the bill in | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
relation to core performance and I have a life interest as a member of | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
the magistrates Association. I recognise the opportunities that | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
modern technology can offer to an official court system but I echo | :33:57. | :33:58. | |
concerns about how vulnerable users will fare in a virtual system. The | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
virtual courts pilot of several years ago offers us very little | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
reassurance, and the impact assessment that the government has | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
produced to accompany this bill tells us nearly nothing. There are | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
real concerns, highlighted by transforming justice amongst others, | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
about the lack of access to legal advice, the impact on lawyer/ client | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
relationships and the intra- act on sentencing, it seems there maybe | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
some inflationary the fairness of the process, public perception and | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
the cost to the public purse, which the impact assessment is quite vague | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
about. I share the concerns of the magistrates Association and others | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
regarding the use of online courts in relation to remand and sentencing | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
vulnerable young people. Significant numbers of those imprisoned have low | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
levels of literacy, numerous seats, or suffer from learning disabilities | :34:53. | :34:54. | |
and they struggled to present their case in the best possible light. | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
They may agree to their case been dealt with in writing or online | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
because it is quick and it gets it over with and it is suggested to | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
them by a police officer in a police station, but that does not | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
necessarily serve the best interests of justice. I also understand the | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
arguments which the honourable member for Huntingdon who is not | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
currently in the chambermaid about the loss of the local justice area | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
being an opportunity for a unified registry and judiciary, but I would | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
say there are advantages as well to local justice, and as the justice | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
select committee identified on its report on the magistrates state last | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
year, the loss of the local justice area must not mean losing the | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
leadership, the peer support, which helps the bench to function | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
collectively more effectively and efficiently, and I hope the Minister | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
will be able to reassure us. May I conclude with a couple of the marks | :35:46. | :35:53. | |
on the other reforms? I endorse the concerns about proposals on whiplash | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
in a small plate to attend I really regret the government hasn't taken | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
the opportunity to be much more assertive in its approach to | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
tackling the aggressive marketing practice of some of the claims | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
management companies. I also endorsed the concerns raised by my | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
right honourable friend in relation to the rise in the single claims | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
limit impact it may have on have on workers on relatively low-paid | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
employment with modest claims for accidents at work and could now find | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
themselves unable to access the legal advice that enables them to | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
make claims successfully and the trade union of which I am a member | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
has offered a number of examples where relatively minor accidents, | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
but which are significant to those on minimum wage jobs, would not have | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
secured compensation under the changes that the government | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
proposes, because of the lack of access to legal help for them to | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
pursue their cases. Can I finally say that I am also concerned about | :36:52. | :36:59. | |
one aspect of the proposals to move responsibility for employment | :37:00. | :37:01. | |
tribunal 's to the Ministry of Justice and in doing so I hope we | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
will not lose the real value that comes from having expert tribunal is | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
made up of representatives of employers and of trade unions and | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
employees as well as the trained judiciary. Like other speakers, I | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
welcome this Bill, there is much to progress in it at that I look | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
forward to seeing developed, but I hope that ministers will take very | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
seriously the concerns that are being expressed, to ensure that the | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
justice system we are so proud of in this country remains the best in the | :37:33. | :37:34. | |
world are the most modern in the world as a result of the reforms | :37:35. | :37:42. | |
being brought forward. They I begin by declaring an interest, not just | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
on the subject that we are discussing, but that I am a trustee | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
of the Prison Reform Trust and a patron of a charity called unlock, | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
these two charities are concerned with criminal Justice in prisons in | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
particular and I am also on the advisory board of the Samaritans. | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
Much of what has been discussed this evening of course touches upon the | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
work of the Samaritans. There are now literally tens of millions of | :38:08. | :38:15. | |
calls made to Samaritans offices every year. The fact that it is | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
difficult for prisoners to get access to telephones and the fact | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
that the suicide rate in prison is very high, there were 119 last year, | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
as I understand it, who took their own lives in prison, suggests to me | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
that this is not a subject that we can just push aside lightly as | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
something which is just one of the consequences of going to prison. I | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
think that all of us need to concentrate quite carefully on what | :38:48. | :38:56. | |
we say and what we do in relation to reducing the levels of self harm and | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
suicide in prison, and I hope that my right honourable friend, the | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
Minister of State, will be able to respond positively in relation to | :39:07. | :39:15. | |
that at the end of the debate. It is uncontroversial I think that our | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
prisons are violent and overcrowded and understaffed, now, what we do | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
about it is a difficult question to answer because the politics about | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
the criminal justice system in this regard is about sentencing. The | :39:31. | :39:32. | |
politics is not about prisons. Really a consensual view... A | :39:33. | :39:44. | |
reasonably consensual view at that what we think what is to be done in | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
prisons, what ought to be done for prisoners and what ought to be done | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
to protect the public. But the issue of sentencing is acutely | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
controversial politically. Whereas the Right honourable lady full | :40:03. | :40:10. | |
Camberwell asked the Government why we can do it for education, then why | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
can we not do it, regulate or create a re-gene which regulates prisons? | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
Welcome the answer is that knows of the British public, not all, what a | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
great portion of them either have children of their own or no of | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
children and take a personal and direct interest in school. -- | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
regime. When it comes to prisons, very viewable of know people who go | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
to prison. Very few of us know about what goes on in prisons. It is a | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
secret world and I've often said that the more that prisons are | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
opened up to the public... Not in a ridiculous way, but in a sensible | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
way, then the better the debate about prisons and the better the | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
debate about that aspect of the criminal justice system would be. | :41:02. | :41:09. | |
Yes. I thank my right honourable and learn that friends. Would he agree | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
with me, notwithstanding what he said, that it is possible fraud to | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
look from an overly liberal approach to sentencing but to support an | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
innovative approach to tackling things to social bonds what we have | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
seen at Peterborough prison. I did have an Ireland with that at all. It | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
seems to me that the argument for making our prisons work. -- | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
argument. As a whole bottle victims of crime and the prisoners is not | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
just a moral argument, it is a political argument. It is also an | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
economic argument. We push hundreds of millions of pounds into the | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
criminal justice system. And into the prison system. What we do with | :41:58. | :42:05. | |
that investment? Reproduce failure. Every prisoner thousands were a | :42:06. | :42:16. | |
business. -- reproduce failure full -- we produce. If the prison was a | :42:17. | :42:25. | |
bitterness, we push millions into the factory and what do we get out | :42:26. | :42:35. | |
of it, but 65% barrier? -- business. Things break safety by that of the | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
time. -- failure. I would get sacked by investor would go elsewhere. That | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
is economic argument. It happens to be bolstered by a moral and a | :42:47. | :42:54. | |
liberal argument. I do not... The money we spend on prisons is not | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
well spent, because it does not produce a leather rate of | :42:59. | :43:00. | |
reoffending and it does not teach people to read or write so they can | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
get jobs. -- lower. It doesn't guarantee that people who come out | :43:08. | :43:15. | |
of prison, 95% of 85,000 people during the welcome our and if we put | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
them into prison, and I sat as a judge for 25 years and good plenty | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
of people into prison for perfectly good reasons, but if they come out | :43:25. | :43:27. | |
of prison still addicted to drugs, still mentally ill, still unable to | :43:28. | :43:35. | |
read or write, still incapable of getting a job, and then they | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
reoffend because they have no other ambition and what to do what they | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
always done, which is to commit crime, then what am I doing sensibly | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
with the public's money? Not much. It seems to me that there should be | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
a perfectly straightforward economic consensus and forget whether I a | :43:56. | :44:03. | |
liberal concerned... Yes. My honourable friend fresher the end I | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
of course belong to the same political party. We take... Eloise | :44:07. | :44:14. | |
rather better at it and more expert than I, we take an issue embracing. | :44:15. | :44:24. | |
But I do come back to the serious point I make and that is that this | :44:25. | :44:33. | |
will argument has to be made. Yes. The honourable gentleman is making a | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
very important point, but will he accept that there is a compromise | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
between him and the honourable member for Shipley, which is that | :44:40. | :44:46. | |
if... He is correct, if we are more successful at rehabilitating | :44:47. | :44:48. | |
lower-level offenders, it leaves more space for us to lock up more | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
serious offenders for longer, therefore satisfying the public's | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
need far more severe sentences for violent and serious crime. I do | :44:57. | :45:03. | |
agree with that and, as I say, I have sent plenty of people to prison | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
for a very long period of time and... I wish we were able to make | :45:09. | :45:17. | |
sure that those who don't need to go to prison, or need to be sent to | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
other places, like mental hospitals, could be dealt with in a more | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
sensible and productive and efficient and effective way. It's | :45:28. | :45:29. | |
not an argument about whether criminals are good people and we | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
should love them dearly. It is about doing what is best for all of us to | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
ensure that the money that comes from the taxes on the money spent on | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
the health service, on education is properly devoted and directed | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
towards getting these people better so they don't do it a game. Those | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
people who have their houses burnt want to ensure the business got and | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
stopped, and dealt with. -- again. They also want to make sure they | :45:59. | :46:05. | |
don't do it again. If all we do is be this conveyor belt, we are | :46:06. | :46:07. | |
achieving nothing, but wasting money. The real crux of the problem | :46:08. | :46:16. | |
at our prisons that we face at the moment, and it is not a problem we | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
face at the moment, is that of overcrowding. -- it is a problem. | :46:21. | :46:33. | |
Roll the prisons of -- I would have a lot of prisons, young offender | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
institutes and such when I was in my previous role and it was abundantly | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
clear and then as it is now that our prisoner state is roughly | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
overcrowded. Battling very overcrowded. You cannot | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
rehabilitate, read formal adequately protect the public prepare prisoners | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
for life outside. -- all prepared. Unless you deal with the problem of | :46:58. | :47:04. | |
overcrowding. -- or prepare. My honourable friend is very aware of | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
that and my honourable friend the minister of prisons is fully aware | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
of that. They have been inside prisons and know what is going on. | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
They have do deal with the arithmetic of how to work out how to | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
spend the money in the most sensible way, subject to the demands of the | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
Treasury. The task they have is a difficult one. The aim is that she | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
has written onto the face of the bill are good ones. What I would | :47:30. | :47:37. | |
like to see in six months' time, in a year or in a suitable time after | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
this bill has been implemented is not that we simply get told that all | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
is well from the Secretary of State or from the chief Inspector, but | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
that we see real, practical advance. It is one thing to write down things | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
on the face of the bill, it is another thing to make sure they | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
happen. We must deal, most centrally, it seems to me, with the | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
hideous problem of overcrowding. With overcrowding, new get sentenced | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
to prison in Canterbury Crown Court, you are sent for that night to | :48:12. | :48:18. | |
Canterbury prison... All the newest prison to that. You end up in | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
Norwich, but having been in via makes them, Lewes, somewhere on the | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
Isle of Wight, somewhere in Dorset, Devon, Bristol, East Midlands, West | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
Midlands and eventually you end up in Norwich, when they are released | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
miles away from your family. You have no records following in a | :48:42. | :48:50. | |
seamless way. This is a plea that I have opted time after time, at a | :48:51. | :48:57. | |
time over the last 10-15 years. Ministers on the front bench, it | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
doesn't matter what Parliament dot-mac party is in charge of the | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
governments, it is a sensible thing to say, but unfortunately because of | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
the politics in sentencing not being in the issue of prisoners, little is | :49:13. | :49:21. | |
done about it. I really do hope that, on this occasion, with this | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
new Secretary of State for Justice, we will see in advance whereby it | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
won't take another 65 years for a new prison bill to look at this | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
question, because they won't need one. It will be in a few years that | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
we will see a reduction in the prison numbers, and increase in the | :49:40. | :49:47. | |
levels of reform and reduction in the levels of reoffending. So that | :49:48. | :49:55. | |
the public and the taxpayers that my honourable friend and I want to | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
protect, both engines of their pocket and their safety, are | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
improved and improved to the advantage of us all. -- both in | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
terms of. I hope I'm actually going to be able to bring some great chair | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
to the Right Honourable member for Harborough, because I'm proud to say | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
that one prison that has developed a world-class suite of rehabilitation | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
interventions to reduce reoffending is part prison. -- cheer. In my | :50:28. | :50:35. | |
Bridgend constituency. I have to say this is largely thanks to the | :50:36. | :50:43. | |
leadership of the prison director. -- Park Prison. And he had of the | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
family intervention unit and his team of staff and volunteers and the | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
most important part of all, with clear partnerships with local | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
organisations within the community that establishes Park Prison. That | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
has led to the rehabilitation work with family and making it, not only | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
possible, but successful. Let me talk first of all about the | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
invisible walls Wales programme. It was set up in 2012, funded for four | :51:14. | :51:21. | |
years by the gigawatt read, Bridgend Council, Barnardos Wales and the | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
Welsh Centre for crime and social justice. -- big lottery. Not money | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
from the Ministry of Justice, but from Wales, from organisations | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
within Wales worried about reoffending. The free call aims of | :51:35. | :51:44. | |
the invisible walls Wales meet all fall of the bill. -- all four points | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
of the bell. It is a free bet family intervention unit aimed at Lorraine | :51:51. | :51:57. | |
reoffending, intergenerational offending and bridging community | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
cohesion. This finding transform the way family engagement takes place in | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
part prison. The environment of prison visits has been fundamentally | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
revamped and, in a bold step, the prison visit Hall has been made to | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
feel more like a community centre, rather than the prison. Across the | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
prison estate, 48% of prisoners receive regular family contact. But | :52:27. | :52:34. | |
in Park, thanks to a small change, that has now risen to 69%. The | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
evidence as we all now shows that those who maintain links with their | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
family in prison are 52% less likely to reoffend. 90% of prisoners at the | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
start of Invisible Walls Wales were misusing drugs and alcohol. This | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
fell to 24% by the end of the project. There were particular | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
benefits for the children of prisoners. By the end, 30% reduction | :53:05. | :53:11. | |
of children having school attainment and attendance issues. 91% of the | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
children had appropriate peer relationships. In June of last year, | :53:17. | :53:25. | |
the work at Park was declared as innovative, radical and probably the | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
best they have seen in the UK. Their work has been exported | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
internationally to prisons in the Netherlands, Uganda and Australia. | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
The president of multi has visited to see what they can learn and Park | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
has been the first prison in the EU to achieve an investors in families | :53:44. | :53:50. | |
Charter Mark. This week, Park's head is easy at the International | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
coalition for the children of prisoners in New Zealand. Park | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
represent a global heart of excellence, especially when we | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
consider that we are expecting evidence to show that reoffending | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
rates amongst high-risk families is to reduce, from 80% to 10%. A 10% | :54:10. | :54:17. | |
reoffending rate. The results speak for themselves. Before the changes, | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
physical changes to the visitors all men family members and children who | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
previously once a week saw destruction and violence in the | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
minister's Hall, now Park have had one incident in six years. | :54:35. | :54:43. | |
Facilitating positive family engagement becomes all the more | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
important when six out of ten boys with fathers in prison will end up | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
incarcerated themselves. We need to place more emphasis on family | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
engagement as tools of reform. We have all said that, but Park | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
actually makes it possible. I cannot tell you how many ways Park has | :55:04. | :55:11. | |
changed lives. Mark, or one the Platinum award, the highest | :55:12. | :55:18. | |
possible, in 1916 in a prison trust awards. This award attracts entries | :55:19. | :55:26. | |
from around the UK and abroad. Park has submitted one of the top three | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
entries to the trust and the chief executive of the trust said HM MP | :55:32. | :55:40. | |
Park is an outstanding example of a testament to the outstanding staff | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
at the prison. They turn prisoners latent potential into concrete | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
achievements and it reflects the fact that G4S across all of its | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
establishments take the arts seriously as a way of learning and | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
rehabilitation. Many members will know of the Hay literary festival in | :55:58. | :56:04. | |
Wales but you might not know about hey in the Park, where the Hay | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
Festival takes place at the same time as hay in the Park and the | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
literary arts festival encourages prisoners to write and present their | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
artworks and sometimes the presenters at the Hay Festival come | :56:18. | :56:25. | |
to Park to talk to prisoners. Schools now going to the prison to | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
work with dads, helping with their reasoning and understanding of | :56:32. | :56:33. | |
educational jargon and developing the listening and reasoning skills | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
children's education. Schools are children's education. Schools are | :56:38. | :56:40. | |
need to support children affected by need to support children affected by | :56:41. | :56:47. | |
a parental imprisonment. Contact details are provided to schools so | :56:48. | :56:49. | |
that if there are issues in the school they can go to the prison and | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
ask for information and advice prisoners are helped in improving | :56:55. | :57:02. | |
their children's literacy and numerous sea and at the same time | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
build their own literacy and numerous sea skills. Building | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
parents confidence in parenting and teaching them how to do it while | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
incarcerated really makes a difference in their life of that | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
family and of that prisoner once they leave. Fathers insider focuses | :57:19. | :57:27. | |
on intensive group work on parental responsibility for the children's | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
education, development and well-being, using drama, education | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
and games and portfolios. There is a Duke of Edinburgh leadership pilot | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
there where fathers gain the opportunity to gain a Duke of | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
Edinburgh leadership qualification while ensuring their children or | :57:43. | :57:44. | |
siblings through different sections siblings through different sections | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
of the Bronze award. There is a beaver Scouts group, the first in | :57:49. | :57:56. | |
any prison in the UK, for prisoners and their children. The baby steps | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
programme gives innovative antenatal education to parents before the baby | :58:01. | :58:08. | |
is born, so that parents know how to parent. They have developed an | :58:09. | :58:16. | |
introductory booklet that enables a robust risk assessment so that | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
prisoners who may be violent are identified and steps can be put in | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
place immediately to reduce that violence. New arrivals are screened | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
for discriminatory views and prisoners found to have contravened | :58:33. | :58:33. | |
the prisoners inclusion policy are | :58:34. | :58:40. | |
required to extend the diversity training programme with set action | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
is fed into their sentence plan. I have talked earlier about the work | :58:46. | :58:55. | |
were Park, but it only works if Park prison works in advance of a | :58:56. | :58:58. | |
prisoners discharge to make sure that the prisoner is ready, ready | :58:59. | :59:05. | |
for the change, ready for the responsibility, ready to move into | :59:06. | :59:11. | |
work, to build a new life, to change from going back to the old patterns, | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
the old friendship group, the old offending, and the behaviour that | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
led to offending before they moved to become a companion in one of the | :59:22. | :59:31. | |
Emmaus homes. Can I ask the secretary of state to also work with | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
the Department for Work and Pensions because the new proposals in | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
relation to change to access to relation to change to access to | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
housing benefit will damage the Emmaus scheme because companions | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
only have, the only income they have, is that housing benefit, and | :59:49. | :59:51. | |
that makes it possible for Emmaus to continue its work. I know that time | :59:52. | :59:58. | |
is running short, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I have to say that | :59:59. | :00:05. | |
money is not anything -- everything. Skilled and dedicated prison | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
officers, partnership working outside the prison, and maintaining | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
the family link is vital to rehabilitation, but so is taking | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
risks and trying new innovative ideas that don't fit the traditional | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
view of punitive sentencing. It is not a soft option. Knowing you lose | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
contact with your children if you take drugs, nor is having a child | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
tell you about their bedwetting and their bullying that they face | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
because their father is imprisoned, nor is having to face your own | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
illiteracy and numerous sea, the way your offending has damaged your | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
community and your family life. I had the Secretary of State will | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
visit Park and see the work that they did there, and can I just say | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
that I hope she has the same sort of look on her face as her predecessor | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
when he came to Park and he spoke to one of my prisoners about his | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
educational experience there and this young man said he had dropped | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
him, it wasn't going to take him him, it wasn't going to take him | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
anywhere, and now Park are given a chance, not only to do his GCSEs, | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
but he was doing a degree, and he was asked in what? And he said | :01:28. | :01:35. | |
philosophy. Now, if Britain can take people through degrees in philosophy | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
that is the sort of changes in that is the sort of changes in | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
people's lives that I hope this bill is going to be able to produce. It | :01:45. | :01:55. | |
is a privilege to follow the honourable member for Bridgend who | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
is a expert on prison reform and I think what you said about HMP Park | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
was incredibly informative and moving and I really was interested | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
to hear what she said about Park supporting families, which is | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
something that can be rolled out in other prisons as well. I would like | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
to declare an interest as a former criminal barrister who had defended | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
and prosecuted and I would like to pay tribute to the Lord Chancellor | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
and Secretary of State, my Norfolk neighbour, for the work she has done | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
in preparing this bill and her ministerial team because they have | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
been indefatigable in putting together what is a very impressive | :02:32. | :02:40. | |
bill, but it appears that what the honourable member for Leeds East | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
said does command a great deal of consensus. On the prisons, though | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
obviously of the crisis, and a number of Right honourable and | :02:51. | :02:52. | |
honourable colleagues have alluded to this crisis and I do certainly | :02:53. | :03:01. | |
have a great deal of concern myself because last year, in the 12 months | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
to December 2016 there were 25,000 prison assault incidents. A 31% | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
increase on the previous year, and furthermore there were 6430 assaults | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
on prison staff, in which 761 were serious. Furthermore, as we heard | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
from the right honourable and Leonard member for Peckham, that | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
there were 37,750 self harm incidents, and 354 prisons died in | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
prison whilst in custody and only 5% of those deaths were due to natural | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
causes. There is obviously a crisis and although what is encouraging in | :03:43. | :03:50. | |
some ways is that the number of prisoners testing policy for drugs | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
has actually come down, there has been a very big increase in the use | :03:55. | :04:03. | |
of NPS, new psychiatric substances. I'm very pleased indeed that the | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
Chancellor of state is adding measures in this bill to Abbey NPS | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
into existing testing powers that is sensible. I welcome what she's doing | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
regarding mobile telephony because there are far too many illegal | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
mobile phones prisons. When it comes to NPS, Madam Deputy Speaker, I was | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
struck when I went around Wayland prison recently in Mid Norfolk that | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
the number of prisoners who actually are getting access to spice and | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
these other NPS and it is having a devastating affect on the management | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
prisons. I saw recently that in HMP Forest bank there was a death of a | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
prisoner on January 29 from a Spice overdose and it was actually the | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
16th death across the prison if they join the course of that month, | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
January this year. One prisoner who was recently released from Forest | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
bank said that half of the prisoners on the staff and the other half | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
spend the whole day trying to keep away from those prisoners who are on | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
the staff. We have a real problem. I heard when I visited a particular | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
prison, I would tell you which one it is, because I don't want to | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
embarrass the governor, but the governor said that he was very keen | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
to create a drugs free wing, and I just find it incredible the lack of | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
ambition, our prisoners should be -- al prisons should be drug-free, as | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
simple as that. How does it coming? The prisoners don't bring drugs in I | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
don't believe that the visitors bring drugs in, so they are coming | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
the wire and our coming in on drones or on supply vehicles and I am sorry | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
to say that there may well be a small number of corrupt prison | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
officers but a very significant amount of drugs, in particular, | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
these new psychotic substances, psychoactive substances are getting | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
into how prisons and causing a great deal of mayhem, misery, and in some | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
cases death as well. I really would urge the secretary of state and the | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
Lord Chancellor and her team to do all she can to keep up the pressure | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
to make our prisons entirely drugs free. I do agree with my right | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
honourable learner friend who said there are in many ways to many | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
people in prisons. I think there are not enough people in prison who have | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
done certain things wrong and committed horrendous crimes and I | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
think they should be imprisoned for longer but I do feel strongly that | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
there are some people in prison who should not be there and am worried | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
that there are more and more prisoners aged 50 plus and many more | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
prisoners over 65 at the moment and this is partly due, as the secretary | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
of state conceded, the extra number of convictions for child abuse | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
crimes. I certainly don't underestimate the seriousness of | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
these crimes and no one can claim for one moment that these are | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
victimless crimes, there are victims of these crimes and the perpetrators | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
need to be punished, but I do agree with Simon Bailey, the chief Coast | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
of love Europe who is the lead on this subject, when he said that | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
there are some people who actually help prison and I do think there | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
have been too overzealous prosecutions of some of these people | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
who should actually be given help to wean them off their dreadful habits. | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
A number of colleagues have mentioned the mentally ill in our | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
prison estate and that includes the honourable member for Stretford at | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
and my honourable friend for North West Cambridgeshire and Bromley and | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
Chislehurst and certainly the good doctor from Ipswich. It is very | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
worrying that 4% of prisoners have psychotic illness, 14% suffer a | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
major depressive illness and nearly two thirds have some form of | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
personality disorder. I want to make a suggestion to the secretary of | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
state as to how we could make some progress this because I do believe | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
that there is an alternative to that there is an alternative to | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
prison for some of those people suffering from serious mental ill | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
health, and that is to be found in the mental health treatment | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
requirement. What concerns me is that this can be added to a | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
community or suspended sentence after a conviction, but only 0.5% of | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
community sentences in 2016 included in MH TR. Why is that? May be the | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
prison minister could look at that and elaborate further on it because | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
I think that significant progress could be made on that front and I am | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
glad that the secretary of state is nodding. I also raised the point | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
regarding foreign prisoners and I do regarding foreign prisoners and I do | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
of our prison population of 84,000 of our prison population of 84,000 | :08:53. | :09:01. | |
307, at that last week, just under 10,000 of those prisoners are | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
foreign prisoners. I haven't done the maths but I think that is about | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
16% and of course some of them are European and there is a difficulty | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
of the problem in terms of ensuring that they are deported back because | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
we have to have the arrangements in place and of course in Europe that | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
doesn't normally happen but there are a number of countries like | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
Albania, Jamaica, Pakistan, India, Somalia, unfortunately, and Nigeria, | :09:26. | :09:33. | |
roughly 3.5% of all the foreign prisoners come from Nigeria, a | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
staggering 5.3% come from Jamaica, and I really do believe that the | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
prisons minister and his team and officials must try to do more to | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
quit this problem. Why aren't there reciprocal arrangements in place and | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
better arrangements in place and why are we working with Jamaican | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
government and the Nigerian government to improve their prisons? | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
Why are we doing the same in Somalia? As far as I understand it | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
the new government there have complete control of most of the | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
urban areas and the prisons are so surely something it could be done | :10:06. | :10:07. | |
there. Is. I was going to say something | :10:08. | :10:16. | |
about call but I think there are a lot of colleagues who are trying to | :10:17. | :10:25. | |
his beak. -- I will conclude. To speak. Things can be discussed at | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
report stage or in committee. We have this Bill. It is a bill that | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
commends a great deal of concern from across the house, across all | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
parties. As it a time, the Government's energy will be directed | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
over the next few months and years on Brexit and the challenging | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
negotiations going on with that, the governments still have time to stand | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
to and bring in a really important bill. Let's hope that a really good | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
bill Can the made better still and committee. It's an honour to follow | :10:59. | :11:07. | |
the honourable member, he gave a very articulate speech. I'm grateful | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
to speak on this debate any second reading of the prisons and courts | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
bell ad of joining the committee stages of the bill of the next few | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
weeks. The White Paper was published last year and I welcome the Forest | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
today many of the steps being taken to get to grips with the challenges | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
of our present and the justice system more widely. Greater scrutiny | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
and more transparency are positive steps, but when thinking about our | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
prison system, a few others have made this point. This will only | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
succeed once we have come randomly got to grips with safety in our | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
prisons. Without an effectively functioning prison systems, one that | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
is reform at its very core. When appearing before the Justice select | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
committee back lashed year, the probation said that self harm, debt | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
in custody are pointing in the wrong direction and using my role as | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
constructively as possible to make sure the bell goes far enough, as | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
the last improving those numbers. Partly due to a number of | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
high-profile incidents, members will be aware of what has now become | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
institutionalised in the justice system. When giving evidence to the | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
justify committee, baby Minister and CEO of the National offender | :12:28. | :12:29. | |
management service were in agreement that overcrowding has been a problem | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
for the last decade. Battling both the. There has been a rise from | :12:35. | :12:43. | |
43,019 90s lead to just over... The number of uniformed prisoners Tasker | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
has increased. Following the closure of 18 prisons since 2010, the | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
prisoner estate has seen a reduction of several thousand places at a time | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
when prisoners are increasing. There are plans to extension at existing | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
sites but these measures will not alleviate overcrowding within this | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
Parliament or the next. Overcrowding is a problem and 59% of prisons, 80 | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
out of 116 establishments. My nearest prison is one of the most | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
overcrowded any country the Prison Reform Trust is shown to accommodate | :13:21. | :13:34. | |
600 men, but it's populated at 71% of its intended capacity. What is | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
the impact on the conditions within? We have already heard from | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
colleagues and statistics Ronnie has a common library that show that the | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
number of prisoner on prisoner assaults increased by 31% on the | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
previous year with just over 25,000 recorded incidents. There they | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
nearly 35,000 incidents of self harm, a 61% increase on 2006, and | :13:56. | :14:02. | |
any 12 months to December 20 16, deaths in custody. 54% of those | :14:03. | :14:11. | |
self-inflicted and 1% by homicide. A report revealed there were more than | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
42 incidents of violence within prison establishments every day. | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
Given the numbers that we measure effectiveness and safety pointing in | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
the wrong direction, it is perhaps surprising that we have seen a | :14:25. | :14:32. | |
reduction in prison officers. Prisons have enclosed in that time, | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
but the population is still increased, in fact, eating at an | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
all-time high in 2011. By any analysis of ratios, the number of | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
officers were shown to be inadequate to meet the challenges. -- peaking. | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
I support the call in looking at ways we can introduce radios into | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
this Bill. I welcome the decision announced in the White Paper to | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
recruit 2500 more prison officers and I'm glad the Secretary of State | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
could tell more about the recruitment process. 400 more prison | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
officers have been recruited for the ten most challenging prisons. I had | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
been at the well be able to go further and outlining the next steps | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
of recruitment of those further 2100 posts. Then it to that, the CEO | :15:14. | :15:24. | |
confirmed in November that the rates are prison officers are leaving in | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
the first year is 13.5% and has been as high as 16% in the last three | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
airs. I'm interested to know the Secretary of State has factored this | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
in when recruiting new offices. -- years. If 13% lead, that will be 54% | :15:38. | :15:47. | |
we will need to find. -- 54 we need to find. I don't want to just make | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
the case of capacity, but also the case for my amendments that will | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
although prison officer safety, which I believe is an area this Bill | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
to go much further in. As Sarah articulately outlined by my | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
honourable friend, who big about having just two officers to consider | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
a wing of more than 150 prisoners, you can appreciate a sense of being | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
at them as when you think about those powers. -- as so. We need to | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
make sure prisoners are safe at work so they don't believe. Colleagues | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
will be aware that, since having an eye opening experience of shadowing | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
a police officer in my constituency, I have campaigned for greater | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
protection for emergency service workers and prison officers are no | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
less deserving. Everybody by the prison officers Association ruled | :16:39. | :16:40. | |
that eight staff members are assaulted every day and in 2010, | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
there are 24 sexual assault against prison staff. It is just | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
unacceptable. According to section eight of the prison act 1952, prison | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
officers, while acting as such, have all the powers and protection of a | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
police constable. Where our soldiers, where evidence reports, | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
the prosecutor has a choice of pursuing common assault charges | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
under section 39 of the criminal Justice act or I thought police | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
charges under section 89 of the police act 1996. Assault is an | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
offence that carries a maximum of 24 weeks of cost to deal service 30 | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
nude teen resolution can be most common outcome. Ireland share the | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
details now but I recommend the prison violence. How he doesn't have | :17:29. | :17:42. | |
to get? -- 30 weeks of resolution. Projecting prison officers. I will | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
give way. Can I commend the work she has done on this and with regard to | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
police officers, it is very much appreciated by them. As she talks | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
about the number of us all on prison officers going up, is she aware the | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
number of extra days given prison officer assault by a prisoner is | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
going down? The average number of extra days for a prisoner assault on | :18:03. | :18:12. | |
a prison officer was 25 years ago. Was 20 five years ago. Would you | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
agree that is inadequate? It is more now. I believe you are quite right | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
and I think the pressures of overcrowding are starting to reflect | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
in those sentences handed out within prisons that do not serve as a | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
proper deterrent. I would be more than welcome to consider that point | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
and others in the committee stages of the Dell. This is why I'm calling | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
on the governments to consider making it an aggravating factor to | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
us all a credit prison officer under existing, assaults, GBH, ABH and | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
malicious wounding charges. That would give the judiciary more | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
flexibility when considering sentencing. Sentencing must be about | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
an effective deterrent. As they just said, not about exacerbating | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
conditions in prison at ensuring there is a real incentive not to | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
assault officers. Further to this, the practice of parting where you | :19:03. | :19:11. | |
are thrown at a prison officer as a means of assaulting, and it seems to | :19:12. | :19:13. | |
be Dean L prison officers in be Dean L prison officers in | :19:14. | :19:15. | |
particular who are singled out for this treatment. -- female. It is | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
horrific. Charges must be brought to every individual involved. There is | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
no wonder there was a 13.5% dropout rate when you look at what the | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
Basque prison officers do face every day they go to work. -- what we ask. | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
The second part is about spitting, it hobbles bitching blood and | :19:39. | :19:47. | |
saliva, but it can also have life changing legal consequences or | :19:48. | :19:58. | |
disease. I aim to... From an offender that battered her many as | :19:59. | :20:00. | |
you try to arrest him. At the moment, if a prison officer or | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
emergency service worker is that ad, they can only take a sample when | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
given permission. Needless to say, most prisoners deliberately seek to | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
inflict the maximum distress on a prison officer and declined to | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
prison officer at all staff member prison officer at all staff member | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
no option but to take and try viral treatment or weight. In Raleigh, | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
refusal to provide blood sample result in a fine and gusto deal | :20:31. | :20:38. | |
sentence -- Australia. -- Oslo deal. We should all this, punishing by | :20:39. | :20:47. | |
fine or custodial sentence. -- custodial. This would stop them from | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
having to go through a six-month ordeal waiting to see if anything is | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
more serious. I want to tackle this at the committee stage of the Bill | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
and Ted the Government will work with the need measures. I also | :20:59. | :21:08. | |
wanted to behave... Raise. -- to the governments. We will be seeking to | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
build support for this change and amend the bill to that effect, and I | :21:16. | :21:17. | |
will be supporting in in doing so. will be supporting in in doing so. | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
Turning to the court section of the bill, I have been particularly | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
animated, shall we say, about the closure of both the Magistrates' | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
Court and the county and family Court in my constituency. I'm | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
grateful that the honourable member for Hertfordshire has sought to keep | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
me informed about this Bill, knowing that the provision of justice is | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
something I'm particularly passionate about. Having attended a | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
meeting about this, there's a lodge to the optimistic about. Except that | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
when starting from a position of what is best practice around | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
supporting vulnerable victims through the justice system giving | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
evidence, there are old-fashioned court settlement buildings are from | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
just not up to the job. In Halifax, having accepted some of the reason | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
for the closing of the court in order to facilitate this revolution | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
in access from justice, to make provision more acceptable than ever | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
before and accessible, the courts have closed and people simply have | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
the travel much further than ever before to attend the same | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
old-fashioned court buildings and use the same outdated systems. With | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
a six-year roll out, and it is the would forward to seeing, like | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
stewing in Halifax is that there is the massive step backwards in the | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
meantime. Engaging with his progress, I accept differences they | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
need to court and Ascot for a merge, cost saving and full tribunal for | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
services. I went to visit Kent Police and I bought the Government's | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
argument. Not for lack of trying, I felt to engage in them with working | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
with me on how technology you be used for the benefit of my | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
constituents and deliberate justice system that is fit for purpose. I'm | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
really grateful that the Chief Executive of the Majesty 's Court | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
tribunal system offered to meet with me to discuss this further. | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
Following similar pleas I made. I do genuinely had that we get a new | :23:15. | :23:21. | |
technology in place to mitigate some of the closures in Halifax. I | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
genuinely welcome the move to introduce modern technology into the | :23:25. | :23:26. | |
justice system where vulnerable victims can record their statement | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
just ones to save paying repetition, that is only a good thing, cutting | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
down time spent by police officers in court where justice can be | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
accessed on an iPad any front room, that would be fantastic. My dining | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
committee can outline example is aware, closures can let daylight | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
which discovered that has failed to bridge and work towards practical | :23:51. | :23:52. | |
measures of delivering a better service as soon as possible. In | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
conclusion, I'm looking forward to examining and debating this bill in | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
more detail. I'd welcome many measures within it. This is a | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
situation that is so pressing and pretty desperate in some of our | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
prisons. The pressure to get this right and do so quickly is weighing | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
on our all. In particular, I hope you work quickly to areas of | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
prisoner safety and with the recruitment and retention pressures | :24:20. | :24:21. | |
facing the Government, I hope it is something that we will be receptive | :24:22. | :24:23. | |
to. It is a pleasure to follow the | :24:24. | :24:32. | |
honourable lady, the member for Halifax, and to follow so many other | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
experts are spoken in this debate already. It is a pleasure to also | :24:37. | :24:44. | |
speak so early in this debate and I'm grateful to have caught. In | :24:45. | :24:52. | |
particular for a bill that commands cross-party support, at least is | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
this second reading stage, there is much to commend itself within this | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
bill, and touch on aspects. I warmly welcome the areas on whiplash on the | :25:02. | :25:08. | |
strengthening of regulations in relation to whiplash injuries and | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
also call procedure when new technologies are to be introduced | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
and I was pleased to hear from the Secretary of State a few moments ago | :25:15. | :25:16. | |
when she spoke and opened this debate that the courts in the | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
south-west of England are doing so well in relation to technology and | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
it is a pleasure to hear that the courts in that part of the world, in | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
my part of the world, are doing so well. I am going to focus my very | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
brief remarks in relation to prisons and prisons reform. I am delighted | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
to see that the purpose prisons is being fed out on the face of the | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
bill and tee-macro of them importantly so. Reform and | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
rehabilitation of offenders, secondly repairing prisoners for | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
life outside of prison. Many people have set out their concerns within | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
the prison system so far but none, I think I have dwelt at length on the | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
reoffending statistics. They have remained stubbornly high. The young | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
offenders the reoffending rates are close to 70%, at 68.7%. For those | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
who are sentenced to less than a year in prison the reoffending rates | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
are at 60%, and the overall offending rates are just under 45%, | :26:23. | :26:30. | |
44.7%. It also comes at a cost, cost of ?15 billion per year. That is not | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
the overall cost of reoffending, that is solely in respect of | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
reoffending in relation to those who have been in prison, so it is | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
absolutely right that we put on the face of the bill the necessity to | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
reform and rehabilitate offenders. These statistics that I have just | :26:53. | :27:00. | |
read out compared badly to some of our international counterparts. It | :27:01. | :27:02. | |
is worth reflecting on those countries that do particularly well. | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
Denmark, for example, has a reoffending rate of 29%. Iceland and | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
Singapore 27%, but Norway leads the feed -- field with the reoffending | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
rate of 20%. I accent that the legal jurisdictions and some of those | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
countries are very different from our own but it is worth reflecting | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
where there is good practice and seeing what we can learn from that | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
and in that regard I was particularly pleased to have visited | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
again offenders institution in Norway, just outside of Bergen. I | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
think prisons in Norway unfairly have been compared to holiday camps | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
by some, and by the media in our country no less. With reoffending | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
rates at 20% I think it would be churlish to ignore that, and where | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
there are good examples that we can learn from countries such as Norway | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
I think we should try and learned those lessons. I will give way. | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
Would my honourable friend agree that there are also examples of good | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
practice in this country as well. I visited a project in my constituency | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
where they are working with offenders, providing routes into | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
employment and men touring and counselling skills and an | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
extraordinary range of opportunities and their reoffending rates are just | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
4%, does he agree we should have the practical examples in this country | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
and rolled out more widely? I absolutely agree and I am grateful | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
for that intervention and it is clear that that scheme is doing an | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
excellent job in her constituency and we had from the honourable | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
member for bridge end of the good work that is going on in Park | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
presents, and that is being rolled out internationally. We ourselves | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
can learn from institutions in our country or from a pure and -- | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
abroad, and I think we should be big enough brave enough to learners | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
lessons and adopt good practice and roll it out across the country. I am | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
very grateful for that intervention on that point. The two principles | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
that I learned from my visit to the young offenders institution in | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
Norway were in relation to staff ratios and also in relation officer | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
training. Their police officers are all either graduates or have had a | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
two-year training programme so I was particularly pleased to hear from | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
the Secretary of State in her opening that we are recruiting more | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
prison officers and that there is more that is being done to improve | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
the training of our own prison officers as well. Indeed, I learned | :29:31. | :29:37. | |
earlier on today they unlocked graduates scheme that is a two-year | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
programme and I warmly welcome it and I am pleased to see the Minister | :29:42. | :29:49. | |
in agreement to that. I'm grateful to my honourable friend. On the | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
analysis of reoffending rates, would you comment on the need of those | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
that you know from a similar professional background, not to go | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
out of prison and into the arms of drugs dealers and further | :30:01. | :30:02. | |
reoffending but into the arms of a loved one where there is an ongoing | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
family relationship where with that connection that can be ongoing | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
support not to reoffend? I am grateful for the intervention. I was | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
going to touch on it later but I may as well deal | :30:15. | :30:29. | |
with it now. Honourable members from both sides of the house have | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
mentioned the importance of that. The honourable lady, a member for | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
Bridgend, who was not in a place, mentioned a 51% of reduction on | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
reoffending which was not a figure I had seen that I would be grateful to | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
know where that figure came from. The member for Stretford mentioned | :30:42. | :30:43. | |
at 39% figure and that is from research that the Ministry of | :30:44. | :30:45. | |
Justice themselves conducted and instigated in 2008 and I have seen | :30:46. | :30:47. | |
that figure but I am interested in both. My honourable friend is | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
absolutely right, we should indeed look at that and I would like to | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
challenge the minister to see if this is something that could and | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
should perhaps be on the face of the bill. For the purposes of prisons | :31:00. | :31:07. | |
that are set out in clause one, I would ask the Minister to consider | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
whether close family or family relationships or some sort of | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
wedding like that could and should be put on the face of the bill and I | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
was pleased to see and hear announced by the Secretary of State | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
that Lord Farmer has been looking at this particular area and I know he | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
will bring his great expertise, and we eagerly anticipate the | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
publication of his report. I also had the opportunity to visit with my | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
honourable friend the member for Hexham, who has been in the chamber | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
for much of this debate, and is in the chamber now, Her Majesty 's | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
prison holding Lee, which is a reform prison and to see the work | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
that goes on there. When reform prisons were initially launched I | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
certainly questioned how they would make a difference, what empowering | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
governors actually meant on the ground, but there were two examples | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
that the governor gave to me which made clear the impact that reform | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
prisons and giving greater autonomy to prison governors can have. There | :32:05. | :32:11. | |
are small examples but they paint a bigger picture and they have a big | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
impact, certainly in Coldingham A. Firstly each and every prison at | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
their works. We had an opportunity to see around the vast factories | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
that were there, they had printing presses and the like all setup. As a | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
result of the flexibility given to the governor, the governor was able | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
to increase the food allowance from under ?2 to in excess of ?2. It | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
seemed like a small uplift but it was in recognition of the fact that | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
each and every prisoner was working and it made a dramatic difference to | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
the morale of the prisoners if nothing else. The second example was | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
the appointment of a key position where the government simply would | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
not have been able to afford without having flexibility within the budget | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
and the autonomy as governor in order to prioritise funds where they | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
saw fit. Those two examples, I believe small examples, that brought | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
home to me the importance of giving governors autonomy and greater | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
authority as well. There is one other area that was foreshadowed in | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
the White Paper and that was on recent temporary licence and these | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
schemes are sometimes criticised. It is sometimes criticised even from | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
our own benches possibly that prisoners can be released early from | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
a sentence and it is often highlighted about a risk to the | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
public, and I agree with those concerns, and it is right to | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
highlight them, but it is also right where property challenge them as | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
well. In fact being released on temporary licence has in excess of | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
99% success rate. In 2015 there are 162 failures, and what is the | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
definition of a failure? The definition of a failure as a | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
prisoner who has breached his or her terms of release, committed a | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
further offence or failed to turn up on time, but that equates to 49 out | :34:10. | :34:19. | |
of 100,000, less than .5% and if you translate that into the reoffending | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
statistics, I think we would all be pleased with those. I warmly support | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
the measures that our governors will be having greater autonomy and how | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
to roll out and prioritise the release on temporary licence. I am | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
conscious that there are other experts who are waiting to speak so | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
suffice it to say that I warmly welcome the measures set out in the | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
bill and I fully support and I'm pleased to see that it has | :34:46. | :34:53. | |
cross-party support as well. It is a pleasure to follow my | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
honourable friend. I have been disappointed in listening to the | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
debate to hear at present being disparaged so much, when actually | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
prisoners pretty place. I think it is worth pointing out according to | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
the Ministry of Justice own figures the longer people spend in prison | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
the less likely they are to reoffend. The latest figures from | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
the Ministry of Justice released in November 2016 show that while 60% of | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
those released from a sentence of less than 12 months ago on to | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
reoffend, those who have served a sentence of between 12 months and | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
four years, the reoffending rate is 37%, and those who serve a sentence | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
of four years to ten years, the reoffending rate is 24.7%, and those | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
who serve sentences of ten years and more, is 15.6%. But in determinant | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
sentences, the reoffending rate for those people released is 11.4%. | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
Prison clearly are not the problem because the longer people are | :35:56. | :35:57. | |
spending in their the less likely they are to reoffend, perhaps the | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
problem is they are not spending long enough in prison, that seems to | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
me to be the lesson from those figures. I have some sympathy with | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
part of what the honourable gentleman is saying but would he | :36:09. | :36:10. | |
accept that underneath those statistics that he has told us | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
about, he is ignoring the nature of the offence, so for instance there | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
are quite a lot of people serving very long sentences for murders, | :36:19. | :36:29. | |
crimes of passion, that they may have committed only once in their | :36:30. | :36:31. | |
life and are unlikely to go on to commit again. In any event, whether | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
they go to prison or not. The problem with that is if we take the | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
one to serve less than 12 months, if my honourable friend looks at the | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
figures he will find that it is very difficult to be sent to prison for a | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
first offence, for a short sentence. People who eventually are given | :36:44. | :36:45. | |
short prison sentences have been given community sentence after | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
community sentence after community sentence, and they have all worked, | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
and the reason these people end up in prison on a short sentences | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
because the courts eventually say they have no other option than to | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
send them to prison because every other means of intervention has | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
failed. The reoffending rate for that cohort of people who end up in | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
prison on community sentences was 100%, said the fact that they have a | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
reoffending rates when they leave prison of 60% is a greater triumph. | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
I haven't got time to give away again. That is a greater triumph | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
than shown by the community sentence for that cohort of people who end up | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
in prison. The bill contains provisions to toughen up the current | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
provision regarding the use of mobile phones and I am sick to death | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
of seeing pictures of smiling criminals from within prison cells, | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
surrounded by all kinds of creature comforts and ill gotten gains, | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
courtesy of the use of mobile phones in prison. More concerning should be | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
the use of phones to intimidate or it threaten victims or ensure the | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
continuation of their crimes and so I welcome the steps the government | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
are trying to take to deal with that particular scourge. I do have some | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
concerns about extending the use of video links in certain cases, and | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
I'm certainly not comfortable people using video commitment in all kinds | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
of venues that are not courts and I shall certainly listen to the points | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
made by those promoting this technology, but sometimes in the | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
interest of justice saving a few pennies should not be the overriding | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
factor. We also need to be very careful that when trying to protect | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
victims we do not affect the scales of justice and end up with a | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
situation where it is difficult for defendants to have a fair trial. | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
Having a fair trial should be of paramount importance, just as | :38:31. | :38:32. | |
dealing with those who are found guilty in an appropriate way is also | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
essential. I am also not overly keen by the sound of the online | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
conviction process, so I will be listening with interest to the types | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
of offences this might cover. I know the magistrates Association have | :38:48. | :38:49. | |
concerns about this as well and I hope they will be carefully | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
considered. I am also concerned about the abolition of the local | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
justice areas. These organised magistrates with their work in | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
geographical locations and I understand some work can be done in | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
different areas but there was something to be said for the | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
argument that justice should be dispensed locally and I hope you | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
don't end up with a situation where all kind of cases are being heard | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
randomly all over the country for no good reason. I have a bit of a | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
concern about the judicial appointments and this drive for | :39:21. | :39:21. | |
diversity. Surely we should be interested in | :39:22. | :39:30. | |
recruiting the best people? Surely it should be irrelevant whether they | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
are men or women, black or white, Christian or Muslim, gay or | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
straight. Surely we want the best person for the job, whether, | :39:39. | :39:46. | |
irrespective, that is what equality means in this day and age. But is | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
because they happen to the gay quarter box. Let's stick to | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
appointing people on merit alone and ignoring other relevant factors | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
about them. I want to focus in my brief contribution on what is | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
missing from the bill. That is more important than in the bill. I would | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
like to see, when prisoners are given a sentence, all the sentence | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
given by the court is served but they certainly should not be | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
automatically released halfway through their prison sentence, as is | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
the case at the moment. It was a scandal when introduced. The | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
Conservative Party were a public when the last Labour government | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
introduced it but now we think it is wonderful to the market release | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
people halfway through the sentence respectively of how badly they | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
behave in prison. This is a point I want to focus on because I will | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
certainly be tabling an amendment is later stage of this bill to make | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
sure anybody who is a prisoner assaults a prison officer cannot be | :40:49. | :40:50. | |
released halfway through their prison sentence automatically. We | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
got to have some proper punishment for assaulting prison officers. It's | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
the least was in officers deserve, that kind of support and one of the | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
reasons we have this breakdown of order is because prisoners now | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
doesn't matter how badly they behave, they will be released | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
halfway through the sentence and all we have our extra days given for | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
assault on prison officers. As I indicated to the honourable The Deep | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
Halifax who has done a great job on this and she should be commended | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
greatly all the work she has done, the average number of extra days | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
given for a sexed -- assaulting prison officers was 20 days and last | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
year it was 16 days. That is utterly unacceptable. I am sure the prison | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
officers Association will welcome the government saying, we accept the | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
case that if you're a prisoner and you assault a prison officer, your | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
opportunity for automatic early release halfway through the sentence | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
will be ended and your position will be judged on whether or not you are | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
perceived to be released out into the public. Very quickly, thank you | :41:58. | :42:06. | |
to Deputy Speaker. I prison sentences should be the equivalent | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
of someone that does that outside of prison at the very least. I am very | :42:12. | :42:19. | |
grateful for My Honourable Friend or his support. I only need each more | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
and then I will be in business, so I will put my horrible friend Boz | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
Magnin down as a likely supporter of my amendment. The House of Commons | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
library briefing paper confirms there were 6,000 for hundred and 30 | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
assaults on prison staff, 761 of which are considered serious. This | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
was an 82% rise on the number of assaults on staff in the thousand | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
and six and a 40% increase on 2015. As in officers have a very hard and | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
at times dangerous job and I am sick of hearing about pathetic editions | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
of the sentences for prisoners who sold them and so I hope the | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
government will do with this issue in the remaining stages of the bill. | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
I would also like to see an amendment to limit the use of fixed | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
term recalls because when prisoners are released early, they don't even | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
go back to serve the remainder of their sentence when they are | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
convicted of a further crime. They just go back for 28 days, what I | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
consider to be a mini break, back in the present, where they can usually | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
keep an eye on the kernel activities in prison knowing they will be sent | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
back the 28 days. I hope this is something the government will deal | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
with as well. Something else I would recommend is given consideration is | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
to make judges accountable for their decisions. Where they don't hand | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
down custodial sentences which would be justifiable and possibly even | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
expected and where the offender then goes on to reoffend. I don't think | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
any to see what the consequences of this information should be but it | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
should be clear to many that where a judge consistently allows offenders | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
to avoid prison and those offenders go on to make other sufferers as a | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
result of their continuing crime spree, they should be accountable to | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
the judge and they should be consequences for that judge as well. | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
I would also like to table an amendment to allow magistrates of | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
the sentence people to prison up to 12 months for one offence included | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
six months. We have a lot in place to do that, it needs a commencement | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
date. The government have been promising this for years now and | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
still haven't got round to doing it. Perhaps the Minister can tell us | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
when he intends to activate this particular part of government | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
policy. I would also like to recommend increasing the age of | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
magistrates and judges to 75 and will be tabling an amendment to that | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
effect as well. From the 1st of December 2016, the age limit for | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
jurors was increased to 75 and I can't see any difference being able | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
to tell difference between a juror being able to see the guilt or | :44:56. | :45:04. | |
innocence and surely that rationale applies to both. Finally, I am not a | :45:05. | :45:12. | |
fan of release on temporary licence. If prisons are only serving half of | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
their sentence, believes they can do is but half in prison rather than | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
being released in advance of the half they are automatically released | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
from and it is ludicrous to have time out of prison, countered as | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
time in prison and I am considering tabling amendments on this. I will | :45:32. | :45:38. | |
not give way because I want to give other people the chance to speak. I | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
would also like to place on record my continued interest in seeing male | :45:43. | :45:44. | |
and female offenders treated equally by the courts. They are not only for | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
sentencing purposes but in all aspects of the Criminal Justice | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
System as I think it has been increased that women are treated | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
more leniently than men currently for every single category of | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
offence, man is my lucky to be sent to prison and a woman and in the | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
interest of equality, this matter needs to be looked at. I am | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
delighted, I want to see that where we should be looking after women in | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
the kernel justice system is by the abolition of sharia councils which | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
terribly discriminate against women and yet the government sits idly by | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
and allows that to continue, which is a disgrace in this country. On a | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
final point, on a more positive note, I notice the Secretary of | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
State for Justice and she said last month, the wrong way to address the | :46:36. | :46:37. | |
problem would be to shorten sentences or release offenders | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
earlier, that would be reckless and endanger the public. It would | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
restrict the freedom of the independent judicially to choose the | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
most appropriate sentence for each offender. I couldn't agree more, she | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
is on the right lines and she sticks to that principle, she will be doing | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
OK and I hope to be able to support this bill by strengthening its inner | :46:57. | :47:08. | |
meaning stages. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, it is a privilege, as | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
always, to follow my humble friend, the member for Shipley, and I look | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
very much the supporting him in some of those amendments that he put | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
forward and foreshadowed in his speech. I must, at the outset of my | :47:23. | :47:31. | |
remarks, draw the House's attention to my entries in the registers of | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
members interests as I am on the role of visitors, a nonprofit | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
dissing solicitor now but earlier on in my career, I had the conduct of | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
many personal injury matters and it is on the issue of part five of this | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
bill, which deals with whiplash, which I want to restrict my remarks. | :47:53. | :47:59. | |
There are some things to commend in this Bill and the welcome, but the | :48:00. | :48:08. | |
one area where I do have concerns with the proposals relating to | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
whiplash. Of course, it is completely understandable that the | :48:14. | :48:21. | |
government would want to try and root out fraudulent whiplash claims | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
and I'm sure everybody would agree with that, but I'm not convinced | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
that the proposals which I set out in part five will assist in that. | :48:33. | :48:40. | |
Now, I welcome the fact that the government has abandoned some of its | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
more extreme proposals but were contained within the consultation | :48:44. | :48:50. | |
paper, but we have nevertheless finished up with a set of proposals | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
which I very much doubt will have the desired effect. There is no | :48:57. | :49:04. | |
doubt that if fraudulent claims are submitted and not spotted, then as | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
we result of the damages which are paid out, that will have the effect | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
of increasing premiums. It is perfectly clear that that is the | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
case. But I am not convinced that the way to reduce premiums is to | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
artificially restrict the level of damages payable to someone who is | :49:24. | :49:30. | |
found liable for the tort of negligence. This has nothing to do | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
with controlling public expenditure. It is all about, we are told, | :49:37. | :49:46. | |
rooting out false, fraudulent claims and trying, as a consequence | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
thereof, to reduce insurance premiums. I would put forward the | :49:50. | :49:57. | |
suggestion that if the government is really keen to reduce insurance | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
premiums are one way to do it would be to reduce the insurance premium | :50:03. | :50:09. | |
tax. It seems to me to be rather perverse that we should be taxing | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
those who seek to do the right thing. I can understand the argument | :50:16. | :50:23. | |
for taxing goods or behaviour which are perceived and not be bad, but | :50:24. | :50:30. | |
it's less easy to understand the rationale of taxing those who seek | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
to do the right thing by protecting themselves and taking care of their | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
future by taking out insurance. Of course, there are already received | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
yours in place to reduce the potential for fraudulent claims | :50:47. | :50:53. | |
being successful. I am all in favour of taking the strongest possible | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
action to root out those who try to deceive and con the system. But I | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
think perhaps we should have given more time for the existing measures | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
which it is not many years since they were introduced, to give them | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
more time to work, and there is already evidence that they are | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
working. Number of whiplash claims as reported to the compensation | :51:18. | :51:30. | |
recovery unit at the DWP has fallen from 511,111 in 2010 and 2011 to | :51:31. | :51:42. | |
330,003 and 65 in 2015 and 2016. The expression that we use is whiplash | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
related road traffic offences because some of them are described, | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
it is true, as upper torso strain caused by shunt by vehicle. Now, | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
that is a whiplash related claim. It wouldn't count as a whiplash claim | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
but we think they are the same thing so we reckon the figures show a 50% | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
increase over the last ten years the time when road traffic accidents | :52:09. | :52:15. | |
generally have been falling. Clearly there are issues around the | :52:16. | :52:22. | |
definition of what actually constitutes a whiplash injury. The | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
fact remains that in the definition of whiplash used by the sea are you, | :52:26. | :52:35. | |
it shows a 34% fall between 2010, 2011 and 2015, 20 16. So, regardless | :52:36. | :52:48. | |
of the number of claims, if it is valid appropriate damages that | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
should be paid. The introduction of tariffs will have a number of | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
effects, particularly when combined with the proposed increase in the | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
small claims which I accepted not within this Bill, but as is | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
foreshadowed in the proposals put forward by the government. The first | :53:11. | :53:17. | |
effect would be that the level of damages will hardly ever be correct | :53:18. | :53:24. | |
and the government recognised this in the provisions that they are | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
proposing. It is a rather clumsy way to try and finesse the basic scheme, | :53:29. | :53:37. | |
recognising that the damages will not be the appropriate level. There | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
will, I think, be inevitably an increase in the number of litigants | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
in person and that raises questions as to how the courts will hope with | :53:50. | :53:57. | |
that and whether or not, for example, the portal which I | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
understand is being proposed should be the mechanism by which the system | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
is accessed, is actually intended for use by litigants in person. | :54:11. | :54:16. | |
Claims management companies, of course, will have a good day as they | :54:17. | :54:24. | |
look to expand their operations in the light of these proposals and I | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
fear that there will inevitably be an increase in the number of | :54:29. | :54:36. | |
nuisance telephone calls. And if Government feel that insurance | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
premiums are a problem, that is by nothing compared with the problem of | :54:41. | :54:48. | |
nuisance telephone calls and I am sure I'm not alone amongst MPs in | :54:49. | :54:57. | |
being able to say that from my own in-box of e-mails, I hardly ever get | :54:58. | :55:04. | |
a complaint about I shurns premiums ---ence shurns premiums, whereas I | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
get many calls about the number of nuisance telephone calls. The other | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
problem that there will be as a result of the introduction of | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
tariffs is it will mean that the same will attract different level of | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
compensation dependant on whether the injury was suffered as the | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
result of a road traffic accident or in the workplace. Now, I am not sure | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
how that can be justified. But I look forward to hearing the | :55:39. | :55:45. | |
explanation as to how that could be justified to the injured person. | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
There will ineve thely also be a transfer of cases from qualified | :55:52. | :56:01. | |
legal practitioners to companies and thousands of high street practises | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
will face closures, or at the very least job losses. There will also be | :56:08. | :56:18. | |
unintended consequences. Such as, for example, access to justice have | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
pointed out an injured party would be entitled to ?3725 for a neck | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
injury lasting 24 months under the small claims track, but ?6750 for a | :56:32. | :56:40. | |
neck injury lasting just one month longer outside the small claims | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
track. So there will actually be an inaccepty for the small minority who | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
-- incentive for the small minority who do try and play the system to | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
exaggerate their claims. In summary, why should the vast majority of | :56:54. | :57:00. | |
innocent, law-abiding citizens be penalised for the actions of the | :57:01. | :57:03. | |
dishonest few? Thank you very much. I welcome this | :57:04. | :57:16. | |
bill which is at the heart of preventing more crime and keeping | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
the public safe. Prisons are the end of the line for maintaining law and | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
order in this country and we expect an awful lot of them. Of course | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
prevention is always better than cure. We need to redouble our | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
efforts cracking down on drugs which so often leads to a life of crime. | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
We need to continue to provide more and more ladders of opportunity for | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
people to engage in legitimate, worthwhile and rewarding study and | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
work. And of course, rehabilitation in prison cannot take place unless | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
the environment is both safe and secure and it is absolutely right | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
that those words appear on page one of the bill. Now, if we are to | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
reform and rehabilitate offenders and prepare prisoners for life | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
outside prison, there are a number of areas we need to focus on. Many | :58:07. | :58:13. | |
prisoners arrive in prison with serious mental health issues and | :58:14. | :58:16. | |
making sure the best mental health care is available must be at the | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
heart of the prison regime. And I welcome the moves towards joint | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
commissioning, so that prison governors are more involved with the | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
mental health care being delivered within their prisons. I was | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
delighted that the current Secretary of State agreed to take forward the | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
review to keep prisoner relationships and family healthy and | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
strong where it is safe to do so. Some prisons like in bridge end, as | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
we heard from the wonderful speech from the lady from bridge end are | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
doing this work well. If prisons are to be places of reform, we cannot | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
ignore the reality that will support a relationship with at least one | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
person is often indispensable to prisons to get through the sentence | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
well and achieve rehabilitation. It's not only family members who can | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
provide this. Other supportive relationships can make a | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
significance... Will my friend give way? Yes. I thank my honourable | :59:19. | :59:24. | |
friend for giving way. There's been huge advances by Jim Davidson's | :59:25. | :59:30. | |
charity, Care after Combat with military veterans, supported be I | :59:31. | :59:33. | |
the Government. These men -- supported by the Government. These | :59:34. | :59:37. | |
mentors, over 50, have gone into prisons. Have been friendly with | :59:38. | :59:42. | |
prisoners and put them on the road to decent rehabilitation. It is a | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
great charity and I am grateful for the work done for the military. I | :59:47. | :59:49. | |
couldn't agree more with my honourable friend. I met Jim | :59:50. | :59:55. | |
Davidson on a number of occasions and I thoroughly commend the work of | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
care After Combat throughout the Prison Service.fyly work which | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
brings prisoners face-to-face with their enduring responsibility to | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
families left in the community is indispensable to the culture we need | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
to develop in our system. I welcome the commitment by the ministry of | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
jus fis to measure the qual -- justice to measure the equality of | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
relationships. During family relationships lead to many prisons | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
being able to access accommodation on release, which would otherwise be | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
unavailable to them if those relationships had broken down. | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
I think there's a huge amount of consensus about maintaining family | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
relationships for prisons. Would he agree that it should be that we | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
should not remove family contact as a penalty, where other forms of | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
sanction are available for other forms of bad behaviour. It is unfair | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
to the family members and defeating the object that the honourable | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
member has talked about, about maintaining contact with their | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
families. I very much share the sentiments of the honourable lady. | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
My instincts are with her on this issue. I will say, having talked | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
extensively to prison officers about this issue, on occasions they have | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
limited levers that they can use. I am with her. I think the family | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
relationships are really important. And are often, you know, powerful | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
forces for good to about dhully help the prison -- to actually help the | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
prisons achieve what they are trying to achieve. Accommodation is the | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
base camp of rehabilitation. We are unlikely to make any progress | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
without it. It is concerning that some local authorities are frankly | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
discriminatory towards ex-offenders. Ex-offenders should not be given | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
preferential treatment, but neither should they be treated worse than | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
others seeking accommodation. And I hope that Her Majesty's prison and | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
Probation Service, as it will be called on 1st April, will look at | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
the cost of prisoners phoning home. Many who have mobile phones have | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
them in order to speak to their wives, husbands, partners and | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
children. We need to make sure there's good access to legitimate | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
use of prison telephones, which are affordable and available to prisons. | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
I am a fan of the prison voice mail initiative, which is spreading in | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
our prisons. A daughter managed to leave a message of her first violin | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
piece for her father to hear on a prison voice mail, for example. I am | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
concerned that innocent family members... Of course I will give | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
way. I thank my honourable friend for the elabration of the points | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
that he's making on this important subject. Would he agree on the issue | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
of housing and released prisoners that many prisoners do suggestle to | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
get on -- struggle to get on to the housing list in various local | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
authorities? What would he suggest as a way to incense tiez local | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
authorities to try and give priority need to those prisoners who have | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
served their sentence and need a bit of support to prevent them getting | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
into homelessness? Well, I What I would say is that at the very least | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
we just need fairness across the system. And what concerns me is some | :03:08. | :03:15. | |
local authorities the who just have a blanket approach of telling | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
ex-offenders to wait a couple of years... One second, when I have | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
finished responding. My local authority has a very good policy. | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
They are concerned about anti-social behaviour. They don't mind if you | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
are an ex-offender or not, they want to know you are a good tenant. So | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
long as you are a good tenant they don't discriminate against you. On | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
this point will he welcome, like me, the third reading of the | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
homelessness reduction bill, where there'll be the duty to provide | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
advisory services from local authorities to those who have been | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
in prefon? Does he -- who have previous ln been in prison? So many | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
things we want to do, education, keeping family links strong, depend | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
naturally on having somewhere to live. I am concerned that innocent | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
family members of off fenders are unfairly penalised by insurance | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
companies, either withdrawing insurance cover, or making it | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
expensive. In some cases this happens while the prisoner is in | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
prison. It is hard to see how there will be an additional risk to the | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
insurer in those cases. The Ministry of Justice needs to make its views | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
clear about this issue. I am grateful to the Salvation Army for | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
highlighting this issue in the recent edition of their what Sean. | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
The previous secretary -- of their magazine. The previous Secretary of | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
State was right to get prison education reviewed. We need much | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
better baseline assessment of levels of literacy, numeracy and other key | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
skills on arrival in prison and real determination not to waste a single | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
day in prison, making progress in those areas. We also need a culture | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
change, so that prisons become places of education across the whole | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
establishment. And one of the ways to achieve this is through much | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
greater use of mentors. For example, with the Shannon trust reading | :05:22. | :05:29. | |
schemes or by using numeracy schemes like one-to-one maths. Some of our | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
best governors, like at Wandsworth, have accelerated this progress and | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
formalised the mentoring arrangements with prisoners who have | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
level three qualifications and are able to help other prisoners. The | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
Ministry of Justice is to be commended for realising the vital | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
importance of making sure that prisoners leave prison with a job to | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
go to. Now, this is a huge challenge and we are a long way from achieving | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
it. But no longer is purposeful activity | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
just to be about keeping prisoners occupied. Worthwhile as that is. | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
Work and training in prison needs to be related to getting and keeping a | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
job on release. And I welcome the focus on prison apprenticeships. I | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
hope there'll be more properly focussed release on temporary | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
license as the decline from 529,000 incidents to 333,000 in 2015, is a | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
great concern. And it will be good to have an | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
update on how Government and the wider public sector are doing with | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
the ban the box initiative. Companies like Boots, Barclays, core | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
rillyian, land securities, Virgin Trains and many others are leading | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
the way and we need other firms to join them and we need to bring | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
employers who are not as enlightened up to the mark. I am very pleased to | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
see that the bill does not alter the statutory provision set out in the | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
prison act 1952. Now chaplains play an important role in prisons and | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
recent research on Catholic prisoners found over 90% trusted | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
their chaplain. The cost of accommodation for clergy can lead to | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
vacancies and I hope the Churches will look at some shared | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
appointments making use of existing housing or invest further in housing | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
for this important ministry. I am extremely grateful to the benefactor | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
who has provided at no cost to the pub lib purse thousands of - - | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
public purse of thousands of the copies for the devotional guide for | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
prisoners. Chaplains should be aware of this excellent free resource. I | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
believe it will have a significant impact in our prisons and beyond, | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
given the links between rehabilitation and redemption. ... | :07:54. | :08:03. | |
If we video have a Probation Service working hand in hand with our | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
prisons. I hope that the Probation Service | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
will look to inspiring examples of what can be done by initiatives like | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
jobs, friends and houses in Blackpool. It is an initiative | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
between Lancashire Police and Blackpool Council and is providing | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
construction skills training, accommodation, employment, | :08:28. | :08:29. | |
friendship, r, as well as strengthening the well being of | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
those it serves in practical ways. I have explained the model to the | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
Chief Constable and crime commissioner in Bedfordshire and | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
senior judges in Luton. I hope they will be inspired to have such an | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
initiative in my own county. It is an honour to follow the | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
distinguished former prisons minister and like him, I would like | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
to combine my remarks to pass one of the bill but I'm tempted by the | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
presence of My Honourable Friend, the courts and tribunals minister | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
because of my permission, I'd like to thank him for a very enjoyable | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
hour that I spend in his company last week, piloting the excellent | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
provisions of part two and part four of this Bill. I was able, during | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
that hour, to both apply the divorce and apply for probate, but that | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
which were, I'm glad to say, fictitious elements which pleased my | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
husband and parents. It was a mercifully short, easy and painless | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
application process and one that is warmly to be welcomed and I commend | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
him for all his work on this. The prisons and courts Bill is a note of | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
hope in the fairly dark places that are our prisons. It is very welcome, | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
but in its scope and content. I follow such a line of distinguished | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
speakers that I'd like to confine myself, if I can, the three points. | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
The first is the abilities in. 99% of prisoners are released, whether | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
the member for Shipley approves of that or not, they are members of our | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
community yet over 50% of released prisoners go on to commit further | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
offences. It is in all of our interests to break the cycle of | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
reoffending and do what we can to be ability of them. As the Lord | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
Chancellor herself told us earlier, currently the only legislation we | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
have to build on is the prisons Act of 1952 which was itself a | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
consolidating piece of piecemeal legislation which gives prisons one | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
rule and one role only, to hold those sentenced by the courts. Much | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
good work has been done by those in the sector for many years to stop | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
prisons simply warehousing offenders. It's so well, that the | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
provisions included in clause one of the bill establishes the first time | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
a much broader statutory purpose which emphasises reforming and | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
rehabilitating offenders, preparing prisoners for life outside prison | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
and maintaining an environment that is safe and secure. It is clear and | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
unequivocal in its purpose and it provides a point of focus for all | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
who work in the prison community. The Minister will have noted the | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
considerable pressure from both sides of this House during the | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
course of this debate to incorporate mental health in some way on the | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
face of the bill. These provisions will be supplemented by new | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
standards for governance, increasing their autonomy is essential if we | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
want to see genuine improvements. I know from the many conversations | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
I've had with the governor in my constituency that giving him greater | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
control, particularly in the decisions on hiring staff, will in | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
itself be transformative. The Bill lays out clearly Secretary of State | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
's personal accountability for the prison system and I was very | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
interested to hear the exchange with my Right Honourable Friend, the | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
member for Beaconsfield earlier, but on experience but ministers of law | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
would lead me to believe this will be as simple and my previous | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
experience as a civil servant would encourage me to see the Secretary of | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
State is being brave, though I mean that in a good way, rather than a | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
negative way. In taking the power upon herself. Personally I am very | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
comfortable with judges considering whether or not a filling prison | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
should be considered by the courts but I welcome the fact that the Lord | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
Chancellor is taking these powers upon herself with the very first | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
time. I think that's a real proof of how clearly she feels this is | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
important. The bill also contains welcome requirements on the Lord | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
Chancellor to respond to but the ombudsman. Clause one of the bill | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
also adds to the remote of Her Majesty 's Inspectorate of prisons | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
and puts the prisons and probation ombudsman on a statutory footing, | :13:07. | :13:08. | |
this is something for which the Justice committee has been calling | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
for some years. Secondly, the bill brings in new powers of the rising | :13:14. | :13:22. | |
Republican locations providers to disrupt the use of lawful mobile | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
phones in prisons. We know that in 2016, nearly 13,000 mobile phones | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
and Sim cards were found in prisons, almost double that that were found | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
three years previously. A recent Channel format documentary showed | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
viewers how easily they can be brought in by visitors who concealed | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
them in Mars bars for example. The prevalence of mobile phones presents | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
a real security risk by increasing the amount of organised crime that | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
can be carried out on a daily basis in prison. It's absolutely critical | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
that we deal with this. But powers in this Bill will lead to real | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
change. Thirdly, alongside the increase in mobile phones, we've | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
seen a horrific rise in the use of psychoactive substances. We don't | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
have recorded incidence before 2015. In 2015 there was 1385 instances of | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
these drugs being used. We don't have the updated figures sadly that | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
we know that these drugs are everywhere in prisons. Indeed many | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
prisons have a drug-free way and assume that the rest of the prison | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
is not drug-free. They present a real problem and represent a | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
deterioration in behaviour in prisons which decent rest goes to | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
show. These drugs make prisoners more aggressive and threat other is, | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
and depressed, and thus a real threat to themselves. The safety of | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
our prison officers is a sensual. MPS are making that increasingly | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
more difficult to ensure. Prison officers need to have the power to | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
test for these drugs as well as any new ones which we subsequently | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
identify. I welcome the provision in the bill to do exactly this. No | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
longer will secondary legislation be needed to rush to keep up with new | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
drugs as they appear. I'm aware from my conversations with her that the | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
Lord Chancellor wants to go down in history as strong prison reformer. | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
I'm looking forward, as are my colleagues on the Justice committee, | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
to seeing real change in prisons under her stewardship. It's a great | :15:30. | :15:39. | |
pleasure to speak in this debate. I intend to focus on part one as well. | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
As stated in the prisons Bill, we must aim to protect the public, | :15:44. | :15:50. | |
rehabilitating offenders and prepare prisoners outside life and minty in | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
an environment that is safe and secure. I have great pleasure in | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
sitting on the joint committee for human rights and under the excellent | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
chairmanship of the Right Honourable ember of Camberwell and Peckham. | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
Within the committee, I have been appointed to the role of raconteur | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
on mental health and our Christian credit being about self-inflicted | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
deaths in prisons based on the Harris report of 2015. Like my Right | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
Honourable Friend said earlier, I've been very conscious that we have had | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
reports such as the 1NI21, Corston report in 2007 on women in prisons | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
and then of course more recently, the Harris report in 2015 on suicide | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
and young prisoners. All of these excellent reports have merit and | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
have been welcomed yet we still find ourselves in the situation where | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
more people are digging their lives in prison, 12 women and 107 men in | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
the last year alone. In my role, I've visited many prisons and the | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
first point to note is that prison should be, and is a case of | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
punishment. It does however have its challenges and response abilities | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
within human rights. I would like to explore a few of these. For me, it | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
seems strong leadership is vital as good practice needs to come from the | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
top and then cascade through the system. I welcomed the proposed | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
increase in numbers of prison officers as it is undeniable that | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
system is stretched. We must make sure the proper training is given to | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
these new officers but we also need to consider existing officers who | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
may for example become demoralised in their work and ensure they are | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
aware and adhere to new standards whilst being fully supported and | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
trained with your expectations. It will necessitate Arik cultural | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
change, a change of attitude and behaviour which requires investment, | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
not just that increasing staffing levels. I will give a simple example | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
that is nothing about money, disco factors. In one prison with hard | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
evidence where an orange file is used if you are suspected of having | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
a mental health issue. Of course no one wants to be branded as having | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
issues and so prisoners are reluctant to seek medical help in | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
case others see them with the orange folder. With a little forethought, | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
there is a simple solution around good practice. Why not use a file | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
the same colour as any other is like no extra cost but it would deal | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
sensitively with the prisoners needs. My first visit our prison, I | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
was struck by the amount of banging on doors in cells and at one point, | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
it was so unbearably loud with the prisoners striking the wall with his | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
Chair and shouting at the top of his voice. What concerned me though was | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
that the cell was shared. Imagine being the person who had to share | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
that sell with someone kicking off like that and imagine the impact | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
that would have on your own lobbying? At that time, I asked the | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
officer what the problem was. They said it was because the yard time | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
had been stopped because of the weather. I asked them how often that | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
happened and they said it happened a lot. Also pointing out that some | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
prisoners would kick off at night, waking up the whole floor. Nobody | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
gets any sleep and the next day, they are all irritable. The problem | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
just goes on. We must ensure that enough exercise and association time | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
is given and other time in the cell must not be excessive. I welcome the | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
fact that more officers will make this possible but please, please, we | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
must consider time outside of the cell, even if it is raining, as | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
frustration and anger is clear if this is not allowed. There's a lot | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
that needs to be done and I welcome the bill as it seeks to reform and | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
rehabilitate offenders but let us not underestimate the challenge of | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
the culture that exists in the prisons. Let's not deny the fact | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
that drugs are available, but there is a workforce that needs | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
reinvigorating, but a gang culture exists and that for some, it is just | :19:58. | :20:05. | |
a way of life. I've heard examples. I will give way. I thank My | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
Honourable Friend for the compelling points but given that suicide rates | :20:13. | :20:14. | |
are now at their highest since records began in the late 70s, would | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
she agree that the best way to address the many important points | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
she has made would be to make sure the mental and physical needs of | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
prisoners are met is on the face of the bill as part of the purpose of | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
prison? Thank you for the intervention. I am going to come | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
onto suggestions that I have next. I've heard examples of returnees | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
walking through the doors and winking at officers and saying, it's | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
me again. Equally, I've heard harrowing stories of prisoners with | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
and all health issues and learning disabilities who have no idea why | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
they are there. Of course they will find themselves in prison with | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
mental health issues for several reasons. It could be triggered for | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
example by the use of new psychotic substances, there be an existing | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
condition with drugs or alcohol, may be an unidentified health issue and | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
there is increasing evidence that veterans are entering the prison | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
system with mental health issues, often with too much pride to admit | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
there is a problem, ultimately taking their own life. Organisations | :21:25. | :21:31. | |
such as care after combat are working to tackle this and we need | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
to identify this before such tragedy occurs, educating officers and | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
others on these issues. We must insure that a mental health | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
assessment is thoroughly carried out on arrival and then is ongoing. But | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
we have good, strong leadership, that we increase our investment in | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
terms of people, resources and training, but existing officers are | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
reinvigorated and trained and that exercise time and association time | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
is guaranteed, always. That departments work together with a key | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
worker to bring them together and that families need to be involved, | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
police have to be involved. Time between termination of a mental | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
illness and transfer to a mental health hospital should be as certain | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
as possible. The student body Speaker, I could speak for longer on | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
this but at the heart of this, we must remember people like Dean | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
Saunders who was not a hardened criminal. His family didn't know | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
what to expect from prison but they knew that he had mental health | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
issues. When he admitted, he was denied treatment. In the words of | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
his mother, he was in there for 2.5 weeks with no medication, no | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
support, no family support. They took all his rights away from him, | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
everything. Previously, he had tried to take his own life at home. His | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
mother said, we fought and saved him that night at home but part of both | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
wishes we haven't because all we did was to get locked away for 2.5 weeks | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
on his own with no support and no family contact. He just suffered for | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
2.5 weeks until they let him do it again. At least if he had done it at | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
home, we would have been with him. So, Mr Deputy Speaker, I welcome | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
these reforms. You need these reforms. Instead of talking about | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
what we should do, we must do something. I am learning to love my | :23:34. | :23:42. | |
place in the pecking order in this building. First of all, I get to | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
hear splendid debates like the one we've had this evening in their | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
entirety and in particular the thoughtful and moving speech of my | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
friend, a member for Derby North. Also because by my maths, I have one | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
hour so I hope you're sitting, to be! Mr Lumpy Speaker, four years as | :24:03. | :24:11. | |
did the mayor for policing taught me everything I needed to know about | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
the dreary cycle of despair which our Criminal Justice System had | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
become. The endless merry-go-round of the same people going through the | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
hands of the same organisation 's year in, year out. | :24:26. | :24:36. | |
I am extremely pleased to welcome the bill today. My four years at | :24:37. | :24:43. | |
City Hall left me broadly with two frustrations that I wanted to share | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
with you this evening because I think they have some bearing on the | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
bill. The first is that while there are attempts, there have been | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
attempts at rehabilitation before in the criminal justice system, hopely | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
not as -- hopefully not as ambition as the honourable lady, too often | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
the money was spread too thin. The jam in a fen niet world will be | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
spread across the estates to the effect that the marginal difference | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
that that programme might make would be hardly noticeable. When you look | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
at the research into rehabilitation programmes tried over the past 30 | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
years not many have made a difference above 2 or 3%. Much has | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
been explained away by the characteristics of the people they | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
have been dealing. So, while this bill is extremely welcome, I approve | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
whole heartedly towards the bias of rehabilitation in part one of the | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
bill. While I know much of the radicalism of the bill is in the | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
White Paper, I would urge her to think about where she puts her | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
resources. For my money, the earlier you spend it, the better. By | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
spending money on offenders between 18-25, you'll get much more bank for | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
your buck than spending it sadly on somebody over 25. The truth about | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
crime is that generally people either grow out of it or they become | :26:09. | :26:15. | |
embroiled in it. That is why the bulk tend to be under 25. That is | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
where we should spend the money. If we had endless money you would | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
obviously spread it. But we don't. That was my first frustration. My | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
second was the small sentences often handed out for very, very serious | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
crimes. We would have individuals convicted of nonfatal stabbings | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
given four years. Out after 24 months. It is a disgrace and not a | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
significant deterrent, as we learnt in London, to the commissioner of | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
those kind of crimes. They were let out that early because of the | :26:54. | :26:55. | |
pressure on the system because of the numbers in the system. Again and | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
again I would get the message back that the police and the CPS were | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
nervous about putting cases in front of the courts because of the | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
pressure upon prisons and often that the youth estate was struggling to | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
take the people they should be taking, particularly given that they | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
often had to separate individuals because of gang affiliation. Now | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
that means we need to clear out some space. In short, my view is, we're | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
locking up far too many of the wrong people and not locking up the right | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
people for long enough. There are lots and lots of clever, smart | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
technology-based disposal these days available for low-level offending. | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
Tagging and testing, which we should push hard and put into effect in | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
this country in a much more enthusiastic way so we can clear | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
space in our prisons for longer sentences for those convicted, | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
particularly of serious, I have lent crime. -- violent crime. On the | :27:50. | :27:57. | |
second part of the bill, the courts second, I welcome the reforms and | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
the use of technology because we know there are two deterrents to | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
committing crime T first is probability of getting caught. That | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
is down to the skill of the police. The second is the certainty of | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
sentences and the swiftness. Criminals who are caught and then | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
put before the courts swiftly, certain in the knowledge they will | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
be convicted and they know what their sentence is going to be are | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
more likely to be deterred. Anything that brings about swift justice is | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
to be welcome. Overall the bill is heading in the right direction. | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
There are three areas I would like to Secretary of State to consider, | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
welcoming amendments from me. The first is about the Probation | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
Service. I have long held the view that we will make very little | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
progress on rehabilitation of offenders outside of prison until | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
the police get involved. For my money probation should be an arnl of | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
policing. Offender management, taking place in the community should | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
be done by the police. Not only would that be more effective, they | :29:05. | :29:12. | |
have personnel 24 hours a day in those communities, monitoring those | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
offenders but also it would yield enormous savings. At the moment, | :29:17. | :29:23. | |
there are double estates, double chief executives, double HC and more | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
often than not they are sitting in the same meeting talking about the | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
same individual. Giving the probation to the police, letting | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
them manage offenders in the way they are supposed to would be a huge | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
step forward. If you consider the health service, if we separated GPs | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
into a different department from hospitals, everybody would think we | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
were mad. Yet we put the police and the criminals who they are managing | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
in the secure state, when they come out of the secure estate, in | :29:56. | :29:57. | |
different departments. Bringing probation back I think would be an | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
enormous improvement and signal a step change in offender management | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
on the streets that would make a huge difference. It would also save | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
money. The two other amendments I guess are of less significance, but | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
might help the Lord Chancellor with her budget. The first is to do with | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
Coroner's Courts. I don't know how she voted in the bill when we had it | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
here, but I am a proponent of assisted dying. Supported it for a | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
long time. I think it is the next great liberal cause for this | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
country. But there is a wrinkle in the law which causes unnecessary | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
distress to those who travel overseas for the purposes of seeking | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
assistance to take their own life. At the moment, if you return from | :30:47. | :30:53. | |
Switzerland having taken your family with your remains, then there is no | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
inquest and you can scatter the ashes and go about your business in | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
privacy. If however you wish to repatriate the body, at the moment, | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
because the death is deemed to be uncertain, the Coroner has an | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
obligation to open an inquest that may then be an autopsy, a criminal | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
investigation will follow. But a prosecution won't. Because the CPS | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
have already given guidance that they will not pursue prosecutions of | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
people who have travelled overseas for the purposes of asis cysted -- | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
assisted suicide. An amend the the bill which would allow Coroners the | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
same discretion they have in this country for those deaths where they | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
are satisfied that is the purpose that the person travelled overseas | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
and allowing people to bring bodies back for burial in the UK would both | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
save time and money for Coroner's Courts because there are several | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
hundred of these people now. And it would also avoid enormous distress | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
for families who quite naturally want to fulfil the wishes. But fear | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
prosecution and fear the inquest, so therefore undergo cremation | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
overseas. It is a small adjustment to an inconsistentsy in the law | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
between prosecution by the CPS and what the Coroner is obliged to do | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
which would relief a huge amount of distress. The third amendment, which | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
I hope the Lord Chancellor will consider, is to do with charging for | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
testing of alcohol and drugs. She maybe aware that some years ago I, | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
from outside this place, managed to get alcohol abstinence orders on to | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
the statute book. It was a huge battle in this House and the House | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
of Lords, but in the end we beat the then Lord Chancellor, the member for | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
Rushcliffe; who objected to offenders where alcohol had been | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
part of their offence being compelled to be sober for three or | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
six months. Anyway, we got this on the statute book. But one of the | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
items the Government would not allow in this scheme is that offenders in | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
a scheme that works overseas are charged for their testing, when they | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
urn up to be tested they pay in the US it is a $1 a test. It changes the | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
psychology of testing. It means that the offenders who are undergoing | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
testing of their sweat, their urine, their breath - whatever it might be, | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
take more responsibility for their own sob bri etty, for their | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
investing in their own freedom because this avoids a prison | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
sentence. It means they maintain contact with their families. They | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
keep their job. But they are sober for three or six months. If they | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
have to invest a small amount in it, it means they take responsibility, | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
but B, it means the scheme itself is self-funding. Therefore Police and | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
Crime Commissioners who I have to say have not taken up this proposal, | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
despite fantastic results in Croydon, where it was tried, will | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
have just the business case to do it. It will be a source of funding | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
for them. Would he also agree with me that one of the things that | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
contributes to the success of these schemes overseases is the immediacy | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
of the consequences. In other words if they fail the test then they are | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
immediately taken back into custody. She's right. We at City Hall found | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
this disposal in South Dakota, where it had taken off like wildfire. The | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
judges loved it. Rates incredibly low. Compliance rating up in the | :34:36. | :34:43. | |
high 90s. It was all based on this notion, that, yes, justice was swift | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
and certain. If they contravened the rules of the scheme. But also that | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
offenders were taking responsibility for their own punishment, if you | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
like. They felt invested in it. They, every time they reached for a | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
drink, they had to decide whether they wanted to stay out of prison or | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
not. And as a result, it's been enormously successful there and is | :35:06. | :35:07. | |
spreading across the whole of the United States. We have the power | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
here. It just needs this small adjustment of allowing the police or | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
the courts, whoever, to charge offenders a nom malamount for their | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
testing. That would be the money they were spending on booze or | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
drugs, if it is drugs testing. Allow them to invest in their own | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
rehabilitation and make progress. I welcome this bill. It is a | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
refreshing step in the right direction. Of breaking this dreadful | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
merry-go-round, with which I lived for far too long. Thank you, Mr | :35:40. | :35:49. | |
Deputy Speaker. I would like to refer the House, solicitor | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
qualifying in England and Wales and Scotland. I would like to pay | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
tribute to the people on the front line of what some describe as a | :35:58. | :36:04. | |
prison crisis. But the front line prison officers have had to deal | :36:05. | :36:11. | |
with the brunt of much of the under-resourcing, the psychoactive | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
substances, the violence in prisons. We should make it clear we owe them | :36:15. | :36:23. | |
a sincere debt of... They will feel more crucial in the jobs which will | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
be crucial to allow us to develop a more rehab billive society. It has | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
been an excellent debate today. I would like to touch on a few | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
contributions before I touch on one or two sections of the bill which | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
are of interest to us and these benches. It was kicked off by the | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
chair of the justice Select Committee. A gentleman who I have | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
grown very fond of in my shortly less than two years in this House. | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
But when you have a Tory chair of the Justice Committee telling a Tory | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
front bench that the situation is grim, I think we should all listen. | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
But he struck a very constructive tone. As he always does. He | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
described some of the more progressive measures in the White | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
Paper, in the bill, as radical Tory proposals. Actually thought they | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
were moving in the other direction towards progression. But | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
nevertheless, I take his point completely. I think he, very, very | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
hot on what was a real political problem in prison reform. That is | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
the climate of public opinion. This notion it is unpopular to say, or to | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
be inferred we are somehow being soft on crime if we are motivated to | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
making sure prisons receive funding, rehabilitation to life when they | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
come out and if the Lord Chancellor is willing to take up that batting, | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
then she gets great praise from me. It is not an easy political decision | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
to make. I wish her all the best in fighting that political climate. If | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
she can change it, then I'll be a fan. My friend outlined, as usual, | :37:54. | :38:03. | |
with great clarity the statistics that corroborate the chairman of the | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
justice Select Committee that the position is grim. I think he struck | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
an excellent tone. Very constructive, which does not belie | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
his two years as a prison minister. He made the point as the Labour | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
front bench did, just because there are elements of this bill we think | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
can be improved, doesn't necessarily mean we don't agree with the general | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
thrust of the bill. That is something can say on behalf of my | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
party that we welcome for the most part the measures in this bill. The | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
member for the Stretford tackled one of the most difficult issues head | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
on, I thought. And she, unlike many, was willing to address the subject | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
of prison numbers in our prisons. And whilst we can beef up | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
recruitment and we can beef up the prison officers, I agree with her, | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
that perhaps we should look at ways for not filling our prisons with | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
people who are there needlessly. She spoke with passion when she spoke | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
about the situation for women and mental illness as well. I agree | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
there are so many people in prisons that ought not to be there and it's | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
not the right place for them to be rehabilitated. She was very brave | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
and be commended for striking that tone. The honourable member made an | :39:19. | :39:28. | |
excellent moral case very well for prisons being rehabilitating | :39:29. | :39:30. | |
organisations. He said, the principals contained in the face of | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
the bill, perhaps lardable. The difference between principals and | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
actions driving those principals through how the prison estate | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
operates. That is a challenge that we will all have to face. I think | :39:44. | :39:44. | |
he's right to say it. The Honorourable Member for | :39:45. | :39:58. | |
Bridgend. If any member did not hear the Honorourable Member for Bridgend | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
speech, I suggest they look it up with haste. It was incredible and | :40:03. | :40:10. | |
you talked about Parc prison in Bridgend, 69% of prisoners having | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
regular family contact, 10% reoffending rate and many others | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
should the sticks, and my proposal to the Lord Chancellor is, we should | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
scrap this bill and devolve management across these islands to | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
the offices of My Honourable Friend the Bridgend. If we can do what Parc | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
prison is doing across the UK, we will have made enormous progress in | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
making a prisons fit for purpose. My Honourable Friend, the member of the | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
Shipley, perhaps he should visit Parc prison, I think that would be | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
an incredibly enlightening experience and if I could be a fly | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
on the wall in that visit, I would pay serious, serious money to see | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
that. He made a typically robust but unusually brief contribution and I | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
think, to be fair, there were parts of his speech that were more | :41:03. | :41:04. | |
balanced on his reputation would dictate. When he talks about assault | :41:05. | :41:11. | |
on prison officers and being prevented from early release, it's | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
very, very difficult to disagree with that. There's not much of My | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
Honourable Friend from Shipley that at least do agree with but that one, | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
it's very difficult to disagree with that. Here are prison officers who | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
face the brunt of what I described the consequences of his dirty and | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
they deserve more protection and that is a way we could protect them, | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
that proposal would certainly have my ear. Finally, My Honourable | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
Friend, my colleague from the Justice committee, the member of | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
Banbury, like her, they pay to be to the present Courts Minister for a | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
very interesting and comprehensive one hour pilot we had the digital | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
scheme last week and like her, I was able to apply the divorce and issue | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
an astronomical claim on my wife all at the flick of a button. I am sure | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
everybody will be blighted to learn that it was fictitious. One thing | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
that occurred to me and perhaps the Minister would give me some | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
attention so I could describe it to him? Issues to be an opportunity | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
within digital constructions of case management files online and the | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
legal profession want thank you for saying this but relates the costs. | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
One of the huge criticisms of the legal profession is that costs can | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
be inflated but if we have a digital system where we can see step-by-step | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
is happening at every case, it may well Act as a skeleton on which | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
standard assessment for costs could be based. The legal profession will | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
not be delighted that I see that but it strikes me as being sensible, but | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
we could have that framework in place, and if that is a consequence | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
of the digitisation of the court system, again I will be very | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
pleased. But Adobe Speaker, I wish to make some comments on part one of | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
the bill which is in relation to prisons. It is establishing a | :43:03. | :43:09. | |
statutory purchase the prisons with principles that should guide our | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
illustration of the prison estate. It belies what I think is the real | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
issue in prisons which is not contained in the bill for | :43:20. | :43:21. | |
understandable reasons and that is the lack of resource and the lack of | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
staff. Government, quite rightly, is embarking on a recruitment campaign | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
to recruit 2,500 net officers into the prison estate. I've heard | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
various figures of what the gross figure would have to be to get to | :43:36. | :43:44. | |
that net figure, somewhere between 1,000 or closer to 8,000. I would | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
like to know how were getting on with that recruitment drive. I was | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
intrigued yet worry to hear a statement from the Lord Chancellor | :43:55. | :43:56. | |
in her opening speech which I'm sure was erroneous when she mentioned the | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
progress being made in the ten prisons that we've identified for | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
additional static resource. Contrary to that position, we've received a | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
letter from the prisons minister and it outlined as the 31st of December | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
last year, six months into the recruitment drive, four those | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
prisons had your staff numbers in the six months before. It may well | :44:19. | :44:27. | |
be that things had been superseded in the next ten weeks. If that is | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
the case, I will be grateful for some clarity on that. I want these | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
results resources to be beat up so we can do the job properly. One of | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
those prisons that was ecstatic at the end of last year was Wandsworth. | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
I was lucky enough to visit Wandsworth with the Justice | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
committee before its recruitment drive started and you did not need | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
to spend long in Wandsworth before you became acutely aware of what the | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
problems were. We had meetings with representatives of the inmates, | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
meetings with percentages of the officers and when you got 15 prison, | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
convicted criminals telling you that we need more prison officers, I | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
think that is worth listening to you. Clearly, many think it wouldn't | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
be in their interest to have more prison officer is but these people | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
would be locked in a cell for 23 and 24 hours, they were not getting | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
visits and that frustration was building up the cause many of the | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
problems that we've seen over the last few months. I asked the | :45:29. | :45:40. | |
question about existing staff because clearly it's sensible to | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
recruit more staff. But what happens to the existing staff? Has been a | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
pay rise for part of the estate. I would ask the Lord Chancellor and | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
ministers to consider what that doors to the morale of the rest of | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
the estate. This discontentment is not confined to certain prisons, | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
this is across the board entirely and we must be very careful when we | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
give incentives to one part of the prison officer population but not | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
the other parts. Is there a danger it could exacerbate the problem? I | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
say all of them deserve a pay rise and I see all of them deserve their | :46:17. | :46:25. | |
rules to be professionalised. It would be great if we could have that | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
update on progress and one of the points about prison numbers which I | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
haven't heard mention today but I think it's worth mentioning is that | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
prisons have 500 left governors and what they had seven years ago, not | :46:38. | :46:45. | |
only 7,000 is staff and part of this bill quite rightly in my view place | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
or responsibility on governors. We've heard lots about recruitment | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
drives officers and staff but nothing about the recruitment drive | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
governors. Is there a recruitment drive to secure more governors, | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
given the extra responsibility that this bill will rightly, in my view, | :47:01. | :47:07. | |
pistol upon them? Mr Deputy Speaker, this bill extends to Scotland in the | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
sense that it will create a framework for the reserve tribunal | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
's remaining in Scotland and the most part, that means the | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
immigration detention centres and tribunals we have there. In that | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
context, we welcome these proposals but Scotland is a smaller | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
jurisdiction, we don't have the same claims management culture that seems | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
to prevail in England and Wales at least haven't had the same problem | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
with our prisons but it's not in our interest but that to continue to be | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
exacerbated and we wish the minister and his team all the very best in | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
helping that. In Scotland, Her Majesty 's Chief Inspector of | :47:44. | :47:45. | |
prisons is responsible for the monitoring of Scotland's 15 prisons | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
and in 2016, the inspection found that Scotland fulfils its response | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
abilities to a high degree. The Scottish prison service has a bold | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
vision to unlock the potential of everyone in prison and seek to | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
transform their lives. The stated intention is to provide services | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
that will transform the lives of the people in our care so they can | :48:08. | :48:09. | |
fulfil their potential to become responsible citizens are something I | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
think most people will agree with. I've also had the privilege of | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
visiting a prison in my own constituency, Dumfries prison. I | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
could not emphasise enough the difference between what I saw at | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
Dumfries and Wandsworth. Dumfries doesn't have the category of | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
dangerous prisoners, it doesn't have the population but Wandsworth House | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
but it is officially resourced and all of the staff there are | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
completely motivated to transforming the lives of the prisoners that were | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
there. At Wandsworth I can fully describe the officers as ashen | :48:44. | :48:50. | |
faced. It is as if they lost hope. The Justice select committee was | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
before them but they didn't see that as an avenue to change things, it | :48:54. | :48:55. | |
was a hopeless situation they felt they found themselves in but I know | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
the front bench acknowledge that. In Scotland, we do not agree with the | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
principle of private prisons. We think private prisons are for-profit | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
and not the Republic safety. In the Justice committee, we have had | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
evidence from but the governors of private prisons and the governors of | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
public prisons and I've been struck by the differences in the evidence | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
that they've given in relation to private prisoners, he's governors | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
are bound by contract and they are not motivated in the slightest to | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
come in front of the committee and explain that they are having | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
problems. Not sure if he's aware that the prison he has just praised | :49:36. | :49:41. | |
the rooftops is privately run. No, I'm not aware of that but it seems | :49:42. | :49:48. | |
as if it is my bible team running the prison. I doubt whether these | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
policies would have come from G4S and are much likely to have come | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
from My Honourable Friend's constituency. If that is the case, I | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
don't seek to be contentious, I stand to be corrected. That's why I | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
have suggested to the Justice committee that we look at this issue | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
to examine the effects of this, of private prisons vis-a-vis the public | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
sector. If the Honorourable Member is correct, that inquiry will bring | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
out those details and I will forward to the point where we can have that | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
reasonable and constructive political free discussion. Having | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
heard from the former justice minister that it is a private | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
prison, I think from the Honourable Lady from Bridgend who may well | :50:34. | :50:35. | |
confirm it, will he reconsider his party 's position? Is not for me to | :50:36. | :50:42. | |
consider my parties position, I am just a foot soldier of my parties | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
movement. However, what I will say is that we will be led by the | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
evidence and the evidence from any future inquiry of public prisons | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
versus private prison gives me a different impression, then of course | :50:58. | :50:59. | |
I will be led by the evidence, not the politics, as the honourable | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
gentleman has clearly be led by his. I do consider the Honourable Friend | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
-- the honourable gentleman, my friend. I would suggest the Justice | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
committee visit parks prison because I have to say leadership there from | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
the director is essential. Things only work if you have leadership, if | :51:21. | :51:28. | |
you have policy staff and if you have a whole organisational approach | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
and commitment to change and I'm sure you would be delighted at what | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
you found there and I have to admit, my staff and my office and myself | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
can take no responsibility for the wonderful work that they do. We can | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
only supported. I reciprocate her views for various reasons. I would | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
be delighted if the Chair of the Justice select committee would agree | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
to visit Park prison and I would be even more delighted if the | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
Honorourable Member for Shipley and join us so I could take photographs | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
of his ever-changing complexity seeing the benefits. I am very | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
grateful, the honourable gentleman might be surprised that I have | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
visited lots of prisons and one of my favourite visit was to Grendon | :52:15. | :52:21. | |
prison which is a therapeutic prison and was one of the prisons I was | :52:22. | :52:23. | |
most impressed with my visit there. One thing I learned was all the | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
things that we will find terrible about being a prison. Most things | :52:28. | :52:34. | |
that we would find easy in prison, most prisoners find difficult and it | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
taught me that we should look prisons through the eyes of the | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
prisoners, not through our own perspective of what might work or | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
might not work in a prison. He has cultivated a very unfair reputation. | :52:49. | :52:58. | |
Nevertheless, as I said, he did make some pragmatic points and if this | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
element of enlightenment about is the process, as we do in these | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
benches, we would welcome that arduous process. Mr Deputy Speaker, | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
one final point or two because I'm conscious that you want to hear what | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
the have to say. The Honourable Friend touched upon it in terms of | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
prisoner numbers. Scotland is not immune to having an inordinately | :53:23. | :53:24. | |
high prison publishing. We don't hide from that fact, we do, but we | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
are committed to challenging the basis upon that arises and we are | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
committed to examining the effect of this short sentences. Had a | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
presumption against short sentences, we are consulting further on that | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
and will be led by the evidence. I was delighted to hear the Chair of | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
the Justice select committee at the close of the remarks likely touch on | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
short sentences and perhaps him and I can work together in having the | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
community look at the issue because I believe the cycle of having the | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
violence and reoffending is not assisted in any way, shape or form | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
by particularly young people going in and out of prison for one, two, | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
three months of a time. Effective community payback orders, but they | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
are in touch with the committee, face the consequences and did with | :54:11. | :54:13. | |
the other aspects of the behaviour, which be a much more efficient | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
process to go down. I am conscious of time, Mr Speaker, I would touch | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
on the other two or three parts of the bill but I was about to touch on | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
because I am keen to hear the front bench's sum up but I wish the | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
ministers and the Lord Chancellor well. It did her ambition to be | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
known as a great prison reformer, this is a decent start and if she is | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
determined to tackle the public perception mess, then I wish the | :54:40. | :54:40. | |
very best in that endeavour. I refer to my relevant entry in the | :54:41. | :54:53. | |
register that I am a non-practicing barrister. I thank members on all | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
sides for the quality of the debate we've had on this bill at second | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
reading. There is much in the bill that the opposition can support. Not | :55:03. | :55:09. | |
least, the very welcome prohibition of cross-examination of victims by | :55:10. | :55:16. | |
alleged in the family courts. Something which was raised a couple | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
of months ago by the member for Hove. We welcome innovation. We will | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
be seeking to amend this bill in committee to embed the principals of | :55:26. | :55:32. | |
justice and fairness and to ensure that innovations can with safeguards | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
and appropriate statutory reviews. Indeed, our approach on this bill of | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
holding the Government to account of not giving the Government a blank | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
cheque was summed up by the contributions made on this side of | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
the House. I commend the work that is done by my Right Honourable | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
friend the member for camber well and Peckham on her chairs. She spoke | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
about suicides in our prisons. My honourable friend, the member for | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
Halifax, who I commend on her campaign for protections for | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
emergency workers, including our prison officers and her speaking up | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
for local justice in Halifax. Halifax could have no finer voice | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
speaking for that than the honourable lady. I am grateful to my | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
honourable friend the member for Stretford, who spoke very movingly | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
about mental health in our prisons, something which has come up in a | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
number of contributions and the number of women in custody in our | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
prisons today in 2017. I am grateful too to the contribution of my Right | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
Honourable friend who drew on his extensive experience and in | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
particular highlighted the issue of having prisoners in our prisons far, | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
too far away from home. I also commend and am grateful for the | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
contribution of my honourable friend the member for Bridgeend. It was | :56:54. | :57:00. | |
great great to her about Her Majesty Charter Mark it has received. I am | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
grateful to the member for Southampton north-west, who made a | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
number of useful and important interventions as the debate | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
progressed. But, Mr Speaker, in terms of the success of this bill, | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
it is difficult at times not to draw the conclusion that factors outside | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
it are going to be at least as important, if not more important, | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
than what is actually within the bill. We are all in favour of | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
rehabilitation and reducing the re-offending rate. 2, 500 extra | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
prison officers are welcome. But that does not compensate for the 6, | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
500 that have been lost since 2010. At the same time, we are in favour | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
of modernisation of our court's system. But the courts to legal aid | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
have meant there are far more it will gants in person within our | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
courts system. Similarly, Mr Speaker, there are measures on | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
employment tribunals in this bill, but it does nothing to take away the | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
ideological vandalism that is the employment tribunal fees that were | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
introduced in 2013. We welcome online courts. But those online | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
courts should not be at the expense of local justice. They should be a | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
compliment to it. And in relation to the measures on small claims, I | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
never thought I would find myself at this dispatch box agreeing the | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
honourable gentleman for Barry North, but I think he was entirely | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
right when he said that if you want to tackle fraudulent claims the way | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
to do it is not to penalise everybody who brings legitimate | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
claims. Now, the way, Mr Speaker, that we will judge this bill is on | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
whether it can actually deliver. Prisons are at the centrepiece of | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
the bill. And we know of the problems of violence, of | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
overcrowding, of drugs and a shortage of prison officers. And the | :58:53. | :58:59. | |
Government has to tackle this. Mr Speaker, as it tackles it, the Lord | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
Chancellor said in her opening remarks about turning the situation | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
around. When I heard that, I have to remind members opposite they have | :59:08. | :59:12. | |
been in power for seven years. I have a confession to make at this | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
point, Mr Speaker, that I have actually been reading recently the | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
memoirs of the Right Honourable member for Rushcliffe. I was very | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
interested as to what he said about his time as Justice Secretary. And | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
he says this about when the party opposite came into power, in | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
coalition, in 2010. He said he consulted the Conservative Party | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
website as to what their justice policy actually was. But he was | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
somewhat disappointed because he said it was based on and I quote | :59:42. | :59:48. | |
"trying to respond to the various campaigns in the tabloid press. | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
Thereafter I did not consult my party's website again." Probably | :59:54. | :59:56. | |
good advice for the ministers opposite. He also said this about | :59:57. | :00:03. | |
his successor, as Justice Secretary. "When Chris gral gral took over from | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
me as -- Grayling took over from me he was not interested in reforming | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
the prison system in a liberal sis rve fashion nor reducing the prison | :00:15. | :00:23. | |
population." Inevitably... : He had to return to seek more savings from | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
the legal aid system. He revived the disastrous proposals for criminal | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
legal aid, which dragged him into prolonged and unsuccessful | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
controversy during much of his term of office. That the criminal legal | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
aid changes were disastrous is something I entirely agree with The | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
Right Honourable member for Rushcliffe about. It is those cuts | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
that have produced a false economy because of the proliferation of it | :00:52. | :00:59. | |
will gants in person in our -- litigants in person in our courts. | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
It puts the success of measures such as live and virtual courts at risk. | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
Because one of the risks of course in that situation is that the person | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
appearing in court isn't able to follow or understand the hearing. | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
That might be a challenge in a virtual court with a lawyer present. | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
It is an even greater challenge in a situation where there are litigants | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
in person. The Government has to be clear and careful that actually | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
virtual courts are managed properly going forward and don't end up | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
costing more money than they save. Similarly, I would place on record | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
some caution about the idea of on-line guilty pleas. While I can | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
see an argument for it in terms of very simple offences, like motoring | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
offences that are readily understood, nonetheless, there has | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
to be situation where the defend knows and -- defendant knows and | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
understanding their right to legal advice and also understands too | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
their right to challenge the charge. Because one thing that an online | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
plea takes away is that opportunity that sometimes comes later in | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
prosecutions before our courts, when different charges are ultimately | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
preferred by the Crown Prosecution Service. To be the thin end of the | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
wedge to extend them to complex offences. We must not lose sight of | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
the fact we are meant to have a criminal justice system that is open | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
and visible to the public. But nowhere perhaps is the problem of | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
what's outside this bill of what's not in this bill summed up than in | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
the case of the employment tribunal fees. Which, with issue fee and | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
hearing fee can reach ?1, 200. 00. A fee that if anyone has been | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
subjected to discrimination or unfair dismissal, is going to be | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
extremely hard to find. And there was a debate, which I heard earlier | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
in the opening speeches, about the effect that this has had. But I | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
quote the justice Select Committee in this regard. I commend the work | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
of the chair of the justice Select Committee who makes such an | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
important contribution to the debate on justice in this House. What | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
happened after their introduction in July 2013 and I quote, "An | :03:30. | :03:38. | |
undisputed and drop in the number of cases approaching 70%." The minister | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
made a point earlier, intervening on my honourable friend, the member for | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
Leeds East. Let me quote what the justice Select Committee says about | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
that. "We heard a considerable amount of evidence that far from | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
encouraging early conciliation and resolution of disputes, employment | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
tribunal fees were having the opposite effect. Because there was | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
no incentive for an employer to settle cases where the claimant | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
might have difficulty raising the fee." And therein lies the crux of | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
the problem. And I heard many contributions from the benches | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
opposite. I have to say the one that will really reverberate on | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
employment tribunal fees is the one made by the honourable member for | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
Huntingdon. Who when my member for Leeds East talked act the need to | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
abolish these fees, what was it that was said that they would encourage | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
something for nothing. Well, let me say this openly, anyone who has | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
suffered discrimination at work has been subjected to an unfair | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
dismissal. They do not seek something for nothing. They seek | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
access to justice and to assert their legal rights. | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
The honourable gentleman must tell me which other type of application | :04:55. | :05:02. | |
you don't pay a fee for? Why is it only employment tribunals that he | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
doesn't want fees to be paid for? Because they are the very people who | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
don't have the money to take the cases. I mean, the honourable | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
gentleman's sort of so far from reality and with the greatest of | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
respect to the honourable gentleman, who made some other useful | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
contributions in his speech, if you're in a hole I suggest you stop | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
digging. His contribution does not get better with any number of | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
remarks he makes on it. That brings many eto the final part of this -- | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
brings many eto the final part of whiplash claims because I said I | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
agree with the member for Bury North, the way to deal with fraud is | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
not to increase the limit on this way. On whiplash, as everything | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
else, we will judge this bill and look to amend it in committee and | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
what it does on access to justice. That is the principal on which this | :05:56. | :05:57. | |
bill has to be judged. We've had an excellent debate. I | :05:58. | :06:11. | |
would like to start by congratulating this esteemed and | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
experienced group of speakers. The chairman of the Select Committee, my | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
honourable friend for Bromley and Chislehurst, former Justice | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
Minister, my honourable friend for Huntingdon, my honourable friend for | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
Northwest Cambs and other successful candidate. Well, he was actually, he | :06:28. | :06:36. | |
had my job. My honourable friend, Right Honourable friend for | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
Harborough, who did this as a Shadow Minister, North West Norfolk, who | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
has been a minister in this department. South West Bedfordshire, | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
former prison minister and I would like to congratulate my honourable | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
friends for Banbury, Derby North, mid-Dorset and Poole, who have all | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
given excellent contributions to this debate and I will comment on | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
some other speeches which I thought were generally very thoughtful and | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
it is obvious there is a great deal of support for this bill. As the | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
Secretary of State outlined at the beginning of this debate, these are | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
vital provisions. If we're to make the justice system fit for the 21st | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
century. We are talking about a major reform of prisons and a very | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
important set of changes to the law about the courts, which will | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
underpin the transformation programme that's going on at the | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
moment and which has the support of the senior judiciary. And I just | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to those who work in our | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
prisons, courts and the wider justice system. Their commitment to | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
public service and care of those most vulnerable in society is | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
inspiring. And I know many of them will be following this bill and know | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
that it means a lot for their work. Before addressing some specific | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
matters, I just wanted to clarify that this bill does do some | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
important things and also doesn't do some things which might have been | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
suggested. So, I mean the provisions in this bill mean better access to | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
justice. Simpler resolution of cases for people. And it is important to | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
reiterate that the bill has been prepared with extensive user testing | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
consultation, with those affected by the measures. Access to justice will | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
not be compromised by this bill. Sacred principals of open justice | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
and the rule of law will be protected in a modern system that | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
reflects how people access public services in the 21st century. A good | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
deal was said, I think supporting the idea of having the statutory | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
purpose of prisons in this bill. For the first time, not just housing the | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
prisoner, but actually having to keep the person safe, keep the | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
public safe, reform, rehabilitation and preparing people for a life | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
outside prisons. And this framework, this new framework, is there and | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
everything follows from it. Contracts, the information that is | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
spread in terms of best practise, training, and of course, as The | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
Right Honourable lady said, in a very thoughtful speech, it is | :09:22. | :09:30. | |
important to prepare the prisoner for release, other members, brej | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
end, the honourable -- bridge end, the honourable lady referred to the | :09:36. | :09:37. | |
importance of the family, of accommodation. These things are | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
there in these, in this purpose. So, when we talk about reform and | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
rehabilitation of offenders, we're talking about tackling their mental | :09:48. | :09:49. | |
health We're talking about housing | :09:50. | :09:58. | |
accommodation, good contacts with their family and so it's all in | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
their order of course the Right Honourable lady was making the | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
point, and haven't got much time I'm afraid, she was making the point and | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
I think this is right, that we might want to look to see if there was a | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
solution in secondary legislation as well as primary that might reinforce | :10:15. | :10:16. | |
some of the important point is that she was making. The prison rules are | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
a secondary legislation, they do contain a lot of detail already | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
about the way in which prisoners should be treated and so it is | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
certainly possible to look at those issues and I will certainly do that. | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
The Prison Reform Trust were mentioned by the Honourable Lady for | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
Stratford and Urmston and their suggestion that we should add a | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
fairness and decency to the statutory purpose. It is right that | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
these are important considerations in running prisons but I do think we | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
need to remember that there is already an interlacing of a legal | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
obligations which apply in prisons and so, as the Right Honourable lady | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
was mentioning with the background with the joint committee on human | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
rights, there are basic human rights, articles two, 38 which apply | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
to the way in which prisoners are treated. Health and safety | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
legislation, the duty of care which comes through the law of tort. So I | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
think that it would be wrong to think that there isn't protection | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
already but certainly, this is something that we can examine | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
further in committee. And so, I would like to also picture but My | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
Honourable Friend the Derby North who has done so much as a raconteur | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
on this issue of deaths in prison for the JC H R. Now, what happens if | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
the present doesn't need the purpose set out in no? A question asked by | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
my Right Honourable Friend for harbour and others. Of course, the | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
purpose of prisons is there and it is underpinned by the duty of the | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
inspectorate to inspect against the purpose and aims and it is also | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
protected by the Secretary of State having to respond. I wouldn't say | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
that it is impossible that a case could be mounted for judicial review | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
because to say that is to press the case too far but I think it would | :12:18. | :12:24. | |
only be the case where an individual prison totally ignored or | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
disregarded the purpose or something of that sort, but it would be | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
grounded, or possibly it could be considered as a factor in another | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
case where other aspects were being raised. I was asked by the | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
honourable, the Right Honourable gentleman for Dylan about the update | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
on each MIP's protocol with MoJ. I again pay to be to his experience in | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
this area. Earlier this year, a draft protocol was shared with the | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
JAC and other bodies. The final protocol will be available very | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
shortly and I can promise it will be there before the committee stage. | :13:02. | :13:15. | |
Very shortly. Imminently! I could say a lot about family engagement. | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
The former review looks very much at that and it is very well understood | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
that to maintain family relationships is a key element in | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
trying to set a prisoner on the straight and narrow and is very | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
important in terms of revalidation. The honourable gentleman for Leeds | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
East asked about the time limits for responding to inspection reports. | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
The point to be made is that action will be taken from day one of an | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
urgent notification by the chief inspector, so there will be | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
immediate energy brought to bear and of course 28 days is the appropriate | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
period in a really urgent case of that sort. The Law Society concerns | :14:03. | :14:10. | |
safeguard online conviction. Defenders must opt into the new | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
procedure and it will be proper warnings available and immediate | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
clear that the defendant once to challenge the case in any way, if | :14:19. | :14:25. | |
the defendant once to argue that the time to pay is needed for a | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
financial penalty, or it should be lower because of circumstances, then | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
all these things will be made clear, and the bill also provides that in | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
the event of a mistake for what ever reason, there will be the | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
possibility of setting aside the conviction or the sentence in order | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
to have the matter dealt with in the traditional way, but I'm sure we | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
will discuss this more in committee. Certainly, the idea is to have those | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
protections in place. The question of whiplash. My Honourable Friend | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
for Huntington asked about fraud cases and how successful they are in | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
terms of successful prosecution and so on. The insurance industry data | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
shows in 2015 there were 70,000 cases of insurance fraud worth ?800 | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
million. In addition, the City of London Police insurance fraud | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
enforcement department has secured over 200 prosecutions in the last | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
four years, resulting in over 100 years worth of jail time for | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
insurance fraudsters. The answer is, a lot of action is being taken on | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
that. In terms of the overall case on whiplash, what is being said is | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
that over a 10-year period, when we have seen the number of road traffic | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
accidents falling, where we've seen car safety improving, we had more | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
than 50% increase in the number of whiplash related cases. Now, these | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
cases are obviously to some extent exaggerated, some may be fraudulent, | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
but the fact is, no government could ignore those sorts of statistics to | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
not take action in such a case. What the government has done is not to | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
take extreme options but to go for moderate options like a tariff of | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
damages for these very minor cases. If it is a serious case of whiplash, | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
where the damage would be substantial, then this tariff | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
doesn't apply. For cases where the pain and suffering is less than two | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
years and other minor nature. Against that background, to have | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
that sort of tired is surely a reasonable approach. As far as the | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
cases are concerned, if there's any of exceptional IT, there is a | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
provision to uplift, so we see that this is an approach that is | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
proportionate to the scale of the problem. In terms of the issue of | :16:56. | :17:09. | |
violence against police or prison officers, which was raised by My | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
Honourable Friend for Shipley, I would not totally agree with him | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
about this because I think if there is genuinely balanced against a | :17:19. | :17:19. | |
hard-working and dedicated prison officer, he has been assaulted, it | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
is an offence and I think we should go further than My Honourable Friend | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
suggests. I think that person should be prosecuted in the court for that | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
offence and violence and that he should face swift justice and the | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
court should give the verbal penalty, which is right for that | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
offence. So I wouldn't be there as saying, it's a question of him | :17:46. | :17:47. | |
serving his full-time for the original offence, I would say, he | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
should serve the full-time for a serious offence of attacking a | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
prison officer and so, I take a slightly different view to My | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
Honourable Friend on that. Can I explain at the moment while, with | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
all the assaults with God on prison officers, the average number of | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
extra time that visitors spent in prison for a folding a prison | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
officer is 16 days, which frankly is pathetic and insulting. My | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
Honourable Friend is looking at something different, he's looking at | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
adjudications within the prison for an offence of some sort but that's | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a situation where | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
somebody's been assaulted, they should be going to the court. It | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
shouldn't be an internal education if it is a serious matter and they | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
should be taken to court and they should have the law. So that's the | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
approach which I would take although I would be interested to discuss it | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
further in committee. So, Mr Speaker, as a result of this bill, | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
prisons will be safer, they will be places of reform. Our courts will | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
provide straightforward access for all users. There will be stronger | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
confidence in the justice system. We will enhance our Google reputation. | :19:04. | :19:13. | |
This is a bold form of justice and I commend it to the House. The | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
question is, the bill will be read a second time. The eyes have it, the | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
eyes have it. The money resolution. The carry-over | :19:23. | :19:37. | |
motion to be moved forward. The question is as on the order | :19:38. | :20:09. | |
paper. The ayeses to the right -- ayes toll | :20:10. | :30:36. | |
the right 180. The noes to the left, 13. | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
THE SPEAKER: The ayes to the right, 180. The noes to the left, 13. The | :30:44. | :30:52. | |
ayes have it. We come to the adjournment to move. The question | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
is, that this House do not adjourn. Mr Hendry. | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am grateful for this opportunity to debate the | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
Universal Credit full service roll out in the Highlands. In my | :31:08. | :31:14. | |
constituency, there was a pilot area for this programme before it went to | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
full service. I was very weary of the progress of that. But I was told | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
at the time this would give an opportunity to iron out all of the | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
problems, all of the difficulties and make sure there were none when | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
it came to full service roll-out. I am afraid, Mr Speaker, that that was | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
not the case and the problems have not been ironed out and this is | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
actually causing pain, anxiety and hardship for people in my | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
constituency. Now, what I hope to achieve from this debate is | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
obviously to highlight the issues, to offer some solutions to the | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
minister and to hopefully get the minister to accept that there is a | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
need to pause this harmless roll-out just now. The intention with | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
Universal Credit, I am sure, was not to cause this type of difficulty. I | :32:06. | :32:12. | |
am sure the minister is not intent on punishing people by continuing | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
with the programme as it is. And I hope that an outcome, as I say, is | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
an understand from the minister of the problems that exist and a | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
commitment to take action. Now, on that subject, I am grateful to the | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
minister for his letter, which he wrotd to me on the 14th March | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
responding to my very detailed letter and I think it is important | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
in order to make sure that there is clarity that I refer to a number of | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
points in that letter during my contribution this evening. He said | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
that, in his response, that we are building and developing the | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
Universal Credit service all the time T well, building and | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
development by definition means that it is not completed. It is | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
incomplete. I would contend at the moment it is unfit for use. You | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
wouldn't build and develop a house and during that building and | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
development period allow somebody to live in it. It is tantamount to what | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
it is happening to my constituents. It is dangerous to their health. We | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
have, in my constituency office alone, over 100 cases of Universal | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
Credit issues. That's just us. That is not the other agencies that are | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
involved. It is not the countless many, many more who are not getting | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
any help at all. Don't know where to turn at the moment. Someone who has | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
contacted us is a constituent of mine called Ian. He waited six weeks | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
without any money. He had to eat at a food bank. He had to go days | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
without electricity, all with a two year old living in his house. That's | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
not acceptable. But he didn't even get any explanation about why that | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
had happened. Now the Palestinester says, in his letter, I recognise | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
that inverness Jobcentre Plus covers a large geographical area and many | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
live some distance. Claimants are required to submit evidence, for | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
example childcare cost receipts to the Jobcentre before the end of the | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
assessment period. Well, submitting evidence isn't that easy, as we | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
found out. Another of my constituents, Jean, had to travel to | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
Inverness to hand in her childcare vouchers. A public transport journey | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
an hour-and-a-half each way. A three-hour round trip. It would have | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
been bad enough if she had put in the vouchers and that was the end of | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
it. They lost the data. She had to make several more trips and it is | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
still not resolved. It is not acceptable. Those issues are not | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
available for people to upload online. You cannot, you have to | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
actually, people actually have to hand in these vouchers to the | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
Jobcentre. Now, why is it not possible for them to go to another | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
local authority location and actually take care of that business | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
there? There should be far more flexibility in the system. The | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
minister went on to say that Universal Credit designed as a | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
digital service to be accessed on line. That is as I pointed out not | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
complete. He said, if people are having difficulty they can use an O | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
345 number and an raters will offer to call a customer back if concerns | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
are raised over the cost of the call. Again, you know, when you | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
actually look at the digital by design issue, there is a big gap. | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
There are 17% of people in the Highlands who never have used the | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
internet. And there are also big areas of... I am happy to give way. | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
My constituency of East Lothian was the first in Scotland to implement | :35:53. | :35:59. | |
the full service roll-out. Has he had the experience that so many | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
clients either lack access to IT equipment, or were inexperienced in | :36:05. | :36:11. | |
it that they had to seek help from the CAB, from local library staff, | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
from local social security staff. The result being that the full | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
service roll-out can only be implemented be I the addition of | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
massive amount of staff time from all those bodies? | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
I absolutely agree with my honourable friend. I will make some | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
more comments and an example of that in a moment. For those people who | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
are suffer from digital exclusion, that's not the end of the problem | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
because 0345 number is in effect a premium phone line. Another | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
constituent, Claire, in tears in my office because she'd used her last | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
?20 for credit for her mobile phone and she was held on the phone for 30 | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
minutes waiting to get through. When the call was evented dhully | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
answered, having used -- eventually answered having used up all that | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
credit, she was promised a call-back that never came. Two days later she | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
appeared in our office. We phoned and it took 34 minutes to get | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
through to get an answer on that case. | :37:14. | :37:15. | |
Now the minister said to me that our latest data, this is what he said, | :37:16. | :37:25. | |
our latest day data from February shows an answer time of eight to | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
nine minutes. More resource is definitely required. That is a big | :37:30. | :37:31. | |
change from the written answer that I had. It is an admission of an | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
increasing time, even if it is not accurate because on 16th December I | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
wrote to the minister to ask what the average call time was and I was | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
told three minutes and 27 seconds. That is not correct even by the | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
minister's own response. But the Citizens Advice office and my office | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
decided to undertake an experiment where we timed to calls coming | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
through. It took 28 minutes on average to get through to that line. | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
Now, there is a requirement for a free 0800 support line. I hope the | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
minister will take that on board. He also said in his letter there is no | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
support, sorry, he said in reply to my claim that there was no support | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
line for agencies or more MPs and he said, as I mentioned earlier | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
Universal Credit is designed to be accessed on line and it is a once | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
and done service. It might be once and done for the DWP, but it is not | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
once and done for the constituents who are under pressure. I am happy | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
to give way. Last week, at the joint meeting of | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
the Scottish Parliament social security and Westminster's first | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
committees, a representative from inclusion Scotland described the DWP | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
by having a digital by default approach. It penalises people with | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
sensory impairments and learning difficulties, apart from those who | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
are not computer-literate. Should it be possible to contact the DWP by | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
whatever means is most appropriate to claimants' circumstances? I do | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
believe, as I said that that, once and done approach is for the DWP, | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
not for the outcomes of constituents. I've gree entirely | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
with my honourable -- I agree entirely with my honourable friend. | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
A support line would create delays and confusion. I have news for the | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
minister, there is already a great deal of confusion and there are an | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
awful lot of delays which are causing people problems with that. | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
He goes on to say this is a complex issue and research shows that many | :39:40. | :39:48. | |
people are coming onto universal credit with pre-existing arrears. | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
What the minister could perhaps do is tell it to a constituent of mine, | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
John, who lived for three years in the same House. When transferred to | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
universal credit, he was waiting for 12 weeks for his support. That was | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
too long a wait for his landlord and the notice was served eviction frame | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
to move out. The landlord was nice to my constituent about it just | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
explained that she herself could not possibly wait because she was | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
getting into financial difficulties in return. Landlords are awaiting an | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
average of ten weeks and many are losing patience. Many landlords are | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
now putting into their Windows, no universal credit because they don't | :40:32. | :40:39. | |
want to take the risk. Alvin housing society have a 22% arrears level | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
with tenants who are not on universal credit. Tenants with | :40:45. | :40:54. | |
universal credit or 100% almost with album Housing Society. The average | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
claimant in the Highlands is ?900. The Highland Council 's arrears | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
themselves, through universal credit, are up 82% since September, | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
now nearly ?1 million and just in case the minister is wondering, | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
Highland Council deducted previous arrears from that that is 100% down | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
to universal credit. That is going to affect services. Unless something | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
is done about it. The Minister says that we'd taken a number of steps to | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
prevent claimants, volley into arrears. I could also point to my | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
constituent, Gavin, in a moment but I will say that the six-week wait | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
for claims actually puts people in arrears by default, by definition if | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
you're waiting for the money to come through, you're not paying your rent | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
and are already in arrears. My constituent, Gavin, his rent is ?175 | :41:53. | :42:00. | |
per week. Under the old system, he got ?168 in housing allowance, 20 | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
had to find ?7 from his other entitlements. Not an easy job if | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
you're on benefits but doable. Now onto universal credit, he gets ?60 a | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
week. Even if he doesn't eat, if he doesn't turn on the power, if he | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
doesn't do anything, if he said still, he cannot pay his rent. He is | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
automatically in arrears. Finally, the minister advises me to go to | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
look at details for the payment process which can be found in the | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
third party creditor supplier handbag and that is dated March | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
2015, two years ago. It is out of date and the information the UK | :42:43. | :42:44. | |
Government are getting at the moment to defend their position is | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
similarly out of date. There are other issues and I could spend a lot | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
of time going through lots more cases to give examples but I'm | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
hoping the Minister will take one of the many invitations to come to my | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
constituency to hear from people, the tear from the agencies and super | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
himself and here for himself which reveals of people. One, Mr Speaker, | :43:07. | :43:14. | |
which is damning, is the issue with Macmillan Cancer care, that they | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
have raised. Sometimes when somebody is terminally ill, they choose not | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
to get the diagnosis directly to them because they just don't want to | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
know. They want to live out their lives as they choose. Mr Speaker, | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
universal credit forces the claimant to declare themselves in order to | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
get the entitlement so therefore they must be told in order to make | :43:38. | :43:44. | |
the claim to be put into a work group. Two things are wrong there. | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
First, it is wrong they should have to do that and I hope the minister | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
will take early action to sort that but certainly, why would they be put | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
into a workgroup, there is no need for them to go into any workgroup. | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
What needs to be done? The Scottish Government will use the 15%, the | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
small amount of power for our welfare system that they have no | :44:05. | :44:13. | |
control over this. All the Minister can ask them to do is to put more | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
money to cover UK Government issues here. The citizens advice bureau | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
asked for an additional single nonrefundable payment to bridge the | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
six weeks between going on to universal credit from the standard | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
system. The UK Government to give choice housing element to be paid | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
direct or as part of a single payment. They too are calling for | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
free helplines and they want the job centre support for those who are | :44:43. | :44:49. | |
lacking in computer skills. Mr Speaker, the universal credit roll | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
out can only be described as shambolic and it is punishing | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
families. The disabled, the unemployed and the most vulnerable. | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
There is a damning utterly of failure, confusion, heartache, | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
indignity and a crashing drive towards increased poverty in the | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
universal credit system. This includes long delays in payments, | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
short payments, lost sick notes and childcare receipts, misplaced | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
documents, failure to respond and confusion between departments. The | :45:23. | :45:29. | |
universal roll out should be halted until it is fixed. The UK Government | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
needs to bring in additional flexibility people to be able to | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
receive what they need in order to survive and there needs to be an | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
acknowledgement of this in an effort to fix and compensate the Highland | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
Council rent arrears that have been run up today. Thank you. Thank you, | :45:48. | :45:55. | |
Mr Speaker. I'd like to congratulate the Honorourable Member for | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
Inverness and Strathspey for securing the debate on this | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
important after and bringing his feedback and critique to the floor | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
of the House today. Mr Speaker, I do recognise the concerns that have | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
been raised and I'd like to reassure him that work is already underway to | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
improve delivery. Today presents an opportunity to share with the House | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
some of the ways in which the DWP has sought and is seeking to resolve | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
obstacles on this ground-breaking project. Mr Speaker, there are now | :46:26. | :46:34. | |
some 477 people on universal credit 2000 of them are in the honourable | :46:35. | :46:36. | |
gentleman was my constituency. You would expect a programme of this | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
magnitude, there have been challenges but I do want to assure | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
Honorourable Members that were working quickly to do with them to | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
ensure it is delivered safely and surgery. Irony lies specifically | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
that the Honorourable Member has encountered a number of universal | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
credit claimants who have had issues with the service and I am aware he | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
has already been a discussion with the DWP district manager for North | :47:02. | :47:09. | |
of Scotland. I do acknowledge also what he says in outlining locations | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
when things have gone wrong, if something has been displayed and so | :47:16. | :47:18. | |
on and for those occasions, I am sorry. I commend what he is doing, | :47:19. | :47:25. | |
both for and with local organisations in his constituents, | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
bringing together local stakeholders, trying to address | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
details, helping people solve problems is important to ensuring | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
the safe delivery of this historic reform. The honourable gentleman has | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
spoken of the diligence, commitment and work ethic of our key | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
stakeholders, local partners and staff and Mr Speaker, I echo that. | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
The King ahead the other Highland echoes that are due to roll out | :47:47. | :47:53. | |
credit service, are in the limitation strategy is underway and | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
we will soon be having a conversation at a more local level. | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
The remaining job centre sites or blind to the Highland Council area | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
will roll out in July 2017 and as part of the fermentation activities, | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
have an external plan to ensure all those involved have a proper | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
overview of universal credit before it arrives at the job centre. I | :48:15. | :48:23. | |
welcome his words in recognising the issue and I think that is the right | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
thing to do. I wonder if, before the roll-out that he is proposing | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
continues into the rest of the Highlands, will he take up my offer | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
of coming to visit to speak to the organisations locally and understand | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
directly what is happening to claimants in my constituency? Mr | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
Speaker, let me thank him for that offer, and I do welcome the | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
opportunity to speak with local organisations throughout the | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
country. By most recent visit to a job centre was this morning and I | :48:58. | :48:59. | |
plan to make another one on Thursday. There are several hundred | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
job centres throughout the country and my aim is to try and represent | :49:07. | :49:15. | |
beat and critique to help our understanding of these issues going | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
forward. I also welcome the cliquish and I have had with him in that | :49:19. | :49:25. | |
regard. Mr Speaker, we established the dedicated team of employer and | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
partnership staff who are deployed to engage directly with stakeholders | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
including local authorities and landlords to insure their is a | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
joined up approach to supporting universal credit claimants. I do | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
know that housing arrears or an area of concern, which is why that is | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
readily subject to discussion in our Highland operational forum. | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
Discussing the issues in this way has led to effective troubleshooting | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
measures. To begin with, we're embarking on its Pacific piece of | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
work to monitor Highland Council cases with housing costs to try and | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
establish the root causes of any delays in the process. I do | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
appreciate the concern that exists around rent arrears and it's an | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
issue I know matters to a lot of people. The reality is, there's a | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
lot of complex and overlapping factors at play. The roll-out of | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
universal credit is by no means the sole factor contributed to arrears. | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
Consider for a moment that according to the latest report published by | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
the National Federation for ALM those, over three quarters of their | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
tenants who have fallen into arrears were already behind with their rent | :50:31. | :50:33. | |
before commencing their universal credit claim. Some of the rent | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
arrears are clearly a chubby table to the charging policies of | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
landlords that can create book arrears from the outset of the | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
tenancy. This is a simple definitional point. A landlord that | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
previously charged rent on a weekly basis will appear to be missing rent | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
payments under the new system which pays claimants housing costs on a | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
monthly cycle in arrears. We think there are the reasons for this | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
change. Became the division is to create a welfare system that more | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
closely welcomes -- mirrors the world of work. Our research shows | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
the majority of gamers are comfortable managing their own | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
budgets and furthermore we know after four months, the proportionate | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
claimants who were in arrears at the start of their claim, fell by a | :51:19. | :51:25. | |
third. Ultimately, I want to make sure I cover the points but if there | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
is still time at the end, I will of course. Many people are coming on | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
the universal credit with pre-existing arrears is contributing | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
to the overall went arrears issue. Let me reassure the House that there | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
are safeguards in place claimants including advances, budgeting | :51:42. | :51:43. | |
support and tenet of payment arrangements. Research shows over | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
time, claimants successfully reduced their careers. This work goes | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
hand-in-hand with our work on improving the of claimants by the | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
end of the first assessment period. This includes providing the customer | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
journey, improving the payment of housing costs, improving indications | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
the landlords and local authorities, and stream running the way | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
information is verified. The project team are regularly monitoring the | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
timeliness of payments and if they identify delays, they take action | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
quickly. There is a positive trend in the honourable gentleman was my | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
constituency with the begin the improvements and timeliness month on | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
month. I recognise rural areas such as the Highlands make this | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
particular challenges. There were concerns raised by colleagues | :52:30. | :52:32. | |
regarding the pace of roll-out. We listen to those concerns and in | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
tandem with a buoyant local labour market, we made the decision to | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
adjust the roll-out's schedule at remaining Highland site. We moved | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
the role of state for the remaining Highland sites back from November 20 | :52:44. | :52:52. | |
16th to July 2017. And aware also that some claimants have reported a | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
face increased travel times to meet with their workload the handover | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
documentation. In response we have made changes to the design of | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
universal credit digital service so that before the end of this year, | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
claimants will be able to upload certain evidence to the online | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
system. Claimants can deliver evidence at any time during the | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
monthly assessment period. This gives claimants valuable leeway to | :53:16. | :53:24. | |
find a continue way or make use of the postal service. Although | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
universal credit is orientated around claimants making use of the | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
online service, claimants can also telephone the service centre for | :53:35. | :53:36. | |
help and support to exchange information. I want to reiterate | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
that this service does not involve claimants having to dial a premium | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
rate number. Ofcom regular issue is require all phone providers to treat | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
colds to 03 numbers, the same as a call to a normal home or business | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
landline. If claimants remain concerned about the cost of calling, | :53:57. | :54:03. | |
they can ask to be called back. I recognise that his constituents have | :54:04. | :54:05. | |
also reported excessive waiting times on these calls. We do | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
recognise that improvements can be made in this area and that is why we | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
have omitted additional resources to reducing waiting times. The latest | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
data shows claimants are now awaiting a maximum of eight or nine | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
minutes before the call is answered. With even more resources being | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
invested throughout March, the support telephony services, I do | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
feel confident that the long waiting times will become a thing of the | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
past. I was also pleased to know that an agreement has been reached | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
at a local level to the satisfaction of the honourable gentleman in | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
connection with the case of one of his constituents experiencing | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
particular problems with delivering evidence to the Department regarding | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
their childcare costs, involving the constituent posting their fixation | :54:53. | :55:00. | |
and also sending by e-mail. I know many members have expressed concern | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
about the procedures under universal credit that determine whether an MP | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
can access the personal details of their constituents. If not already | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
aware, I would draw the Honorourable Members attention to the statement | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
on the 13th of this month where he agrees that the arrangements that | :55:22. | :55:28. | |
exist in the legacy benefits can continue within universal credit. | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
This will ensure that MPs are able to Act quickly on the half of their | :55:33. | :55:40. | |
constituents and I hope that members will feel assured of this. | :55:41. | :55:42. |