20/03/2017 House of Commons


20/03/2017

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we are working with the regional schools commission to make sure they

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will be provision of those who want to study without having to leave the

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borough. We must now move on. Before I called the honourable gentleman,

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the member for Denton and Redditch to ask his urgent question, I would

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emphasise to the house that this question relates to issues

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highlighted by the appointment of the Right Honourable gentleman a

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member of Tatton to the editorship of the London Evening Standard for

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the operation of the advisory committee on business appointments

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and the ministerial code. It is not, repeat not, about the conduct of the

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right Honourable member and I will not countenance supplementary

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questions which are critical of the conduct of the Right Honourable

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member. Order. As the house will be aware, criticisms of the conduct of

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honourable land right honourable members of this house may be made

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only one substantive motions. Urgent question, Mr Andrew Gwynne. Thank

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you. To ask the Prime Minister if she will make a statement on the

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operation of the advisory committee on business appointments and the

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ministerial code in light of the appointment of the Right Honourable

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member for Tatton to the editorship of the London Evening Standard.

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Minister Ben Gummer. , Mr Speaker, I am very grateful indeed. For

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bringing attention to the house. The ministerial code requires that

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former ministers must seek advice from the independent advisory

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committee about any appointments or employment they wish to take up

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within two' years of leaving office. Might Honourable friend left his

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role in government in July last year. Information on advice given to

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him regarding previous appointment has been published on the committee

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website. I understand is particular role mentioned was received by the

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committee on March 13 and is currently being considered. When the

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committee has fully consider this application it will provide its

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advice to my right honourable friend. Until this advice is made

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public that is confidential process although no doubt a matter of

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significant interest to this house. Thank you Mr Speaker and I would

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like to thank you first before granting this urgent question and I

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will seek to adhere to your wish not to refer to the right honourable

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member. This is a matter of great concern as we have seen in the media

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of the weekend. It was addressed to the Prime Minister not with respect

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to the minister but I do appreciate his commitment to ensuring that more

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is done in future to prevent a repeat of the most recent incident.

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The current rules around business appointments were established to the

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suspicion that the decisions and statements of serving ministers

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might be influenced by the hope of future rewards in the form of a job

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offer or other monetary gains. This regarding these rules deeply

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undermines public trust in the democratic process and the trust of

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the work of the member of Parliament and this house itself. It does a

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disservice to those members that respect the trust praised them by

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their constituents who spend every hour of their day fighting for their

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constituents interests. And who ensure that proper attention to the

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representative role of an MP is given. As a vocation to public

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service should require. In 2012 and enquiry into the Cobra suggested it

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should be replaced but the government provided assurances that

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the current system and the ministerial code was robust enough

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to prevent behaviour or actions that may add worse bring this house into

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this weird or further the tragic low standing this profession is sadly

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held on. Yet I am forced here to date to ask the government again how

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they will address another case and to give assurances that the current

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system has not provided yet another opportunity for a conflict of

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interests to be exploited. To hold on outside interest is perhaps

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defensible but to hold several time consuming outside commitments that

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have a deep overlap with the political role of what is best to be

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a full-time commitment is impossible to defend. Will the Minister confirm

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what action the government intends to take against ex-ministers who

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appeared to be in breach of the ministerial code on their failure to

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seek advice from Acoba before accepting an appointment? And will

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he consider his government response to the 2012 review into Acoba and

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provide a stronger system, able to command the confidence of this house

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and the public because it is what we deserve. I think the honourable

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gentleman and I have to say I can see why he took this excuse to drag

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himself away from the Shadow Cabinet awayday... Which I can imagine. I

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know he will be missing with every single cell in his body and that is

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why I will give him the short answer he can return as quickly as

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possible. As the honourable gentleman has rightly said, much has

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already been done in this important area. The Prime Minister revised the

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ministerial code when she took office. It is a matter of the

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concern to her and that is why for the first time the ministerial code

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of p to it the advice to ministers on leaving office about seeking the

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advice and assurances or approbation and indeed sense of Acoba: the

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independent advisory committee on business appointments. But the

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important thing to say about that process is that it is indeed

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independent. And I hope he will not mind there for if I do not make any

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comment about this particular case because they are considering it and

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it would be wrong for me to prejudice their decision to say one

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way or another what my view was or what the government view was. Not

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that we have a view until we have received the independent advice from

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the independent committee. He makes a broader point about employment

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outside this house and about outside interest. He will know that his

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colleagues and also members on this side of the house sitting in the

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committee for standards in Public life will be looking at this matter

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again. It is a matter of ongoing concern to the public widely, it has

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been for many years, and it is something this house will have to

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grapple with in the years ahead which is why I welcome the committee

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looking at it again. And I have no doubt this is something that will

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return to the house at a later point. But the honourable gentleman

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makes a wider point about vocation and it is one I would like to

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address directly. It is a very important matter. Members in this

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house on both sides, no matter whether in opposition or on the

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government benches, in my expense and I'm sure in his as well, come to

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this place almost all of them because they believe in public

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service. And that should inform their decisions, not just about

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their own interest but about the wider interests of democracy and the

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representative system that we seek to represent. And I'm sure that all

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members in the way that they deport themselves today in this discussion

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will bear that in mind. Mr Speaker... When I heard that this

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urgent question had been granted I thought it was important to be here.

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Although unfortunately we have missed the deadline for the Evening

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Standard. In my view, Mr Speaker, this Parliament is enhanced when we

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have people of different experience take part in our robust debate and

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when people who have held senior ministerial office continued to

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contribute to the decisions we have to make. But I will listen to what

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my colleagues have to say in this debate. I'm interested to hear.

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I am not sure there is much more I should or could add to my right

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honourable friend's points. International happiness today, and

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we can see some people that are pretty happy...

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LAUGHTER. But, it does strike me that we have heard it all when we

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get a minister standing up to give a response to a perfectly reasonable

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and sensible question and make a joke about it, when the Honourable

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member thinks it's a matter of mere amusement. You cannot be caught

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treating the House and the people as a load of... This is disgraceful and

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many to know what the government is good to do about it. This morning,

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as with all mornings I had the pleasure of reading assessments do's

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column in the daily record and all I would say is that there is a

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tradition in this House of contributing to newspapers, it is

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important... LAUGHTER And elsewhere, even in the

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assembly in Hollywood. What it is important to remember in this is it

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is not what the Speaker has said of the particulars but in the

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generality of whether members should have interests or employment outside

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of this House. That is why I'm glad that the committee is looking about

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in detail and no doubt members across the House will wish to

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consider the recommendations in dude caught. I draw the House tonight

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attention... The Minister will be aware that Acoba, sponsored by the

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Cabinet office is with in the remit of the public administration and

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constitutional affairs committee of which I am a member, and the

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chairman is abroad. Our committee has an enquiry into the role of

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Acoba which is remaining open and on which which we have not reported and

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our enquiry will take into account these new requirements and we will

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consider what further efforts to take. Will the Minister agree that

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it is important that the relevant committees of this House are able to

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carry out the remit in a copper fashion and make recommendations

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East on evidence? I completely agree with her and she is right to remind

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the House that there is an enquiry at the moment and we will look with

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interest on the enquiry. My honourable friend has already

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contributed to that enquiry and is required will make further

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contribution should the enquiry wish. Could I returned the Minister

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to fill issue of ministerial code, and ask whether he thinks there is

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any need for reform of the code or for enforcement of the code and if

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so what would be the mechanism for doing that? The ministerial code

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determines how ministers should behave and that is serving

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ministers, it does not have a direct impact on ex-ministers, the reason

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she will understand. What it does do is to advise ex-ministers of their

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responsibilities should they leave their position and has been

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toughened up in that respect in the last few months before this current

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discussion happen. It is important that the committee, the advisory

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committee, gives its recommendations before we move on to broader matters

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of reform, because at the moment the questions are predicated on an

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answer that I would not like to predetermine.

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I draw the House's attention to my entry. In considering these matters,

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Mr Speaker, is it not extremely important that the House always

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seeks to attract the widest possible cross-section, including retaining

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the services of those who have held high office? Is it not a matter of

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regret that the first time, I think in my 30 years on enough in this

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House, there is no former Prime Minister in either of the two Houses

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of Parliament? That is the view that this House has traditionally taken,

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and it is for this House, not the government on its own, to make a

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decision in the long term about the balance is wishes to have

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traditionally and to this point this House is determined that it is right

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from members of Parliament to have the opportunity of having a rider

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interact. -- a wider. It is not the meat to say at this point. It is

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important that whatever we are discussing at this juncture... In

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1523, Cardinal Wolsey became the Bishop of Durham, he never visited

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his diocese, what steps is the Minister going to take to make sure

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the honourable members do not stop behaving like medieval clerics

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rather than modern politicians? Thomas Wolsey Lee was a proud boy of

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Ipswich and was proud to go back as often as he could. I have no

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complaints about Thomas Wall Street. I cannot speak for his constituents

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all for his parishioners. What I can say is that it will be for all of

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our constituencies in 2022 judged the means and managing of what we

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discharge our... And it is for us to get electric at this point and put

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ourselves up for re-election on that basis. Is my right honourable friend

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able to tell the House, is he aware that the Cabinet office received

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representations from Her Majesty's opposition about the ink

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compatibility with the role of Chancellor of the extractor...

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LAUGHTER I endeavour in everything I do to be as assiduous as my

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predecessor in my ministerial responsibilities as of yet I have

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not been able to undercut anything of the kind he suggests. The context

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of potential overspending in key marginal seats, and at the same time

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concerns about appointments of MPs in very safe seats, does this not

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show the stark difference between the parties and candidates' approach

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to marginal seats and safe seats and show there is a real problem of

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representations and an issue with first past the post as a system?

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This is a niche interest the Liberal Democrats all of whom have marginal

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seats, I know. But it is important to say that, what I do find

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extraordinary about that question is that there are members on both sides

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of this House who have very safe seats who are incredibly assiduous

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in the way the intent of their constituents, members sitting

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opposite, members behind me who have 60s who are assiduous and it is

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wrong to Castor Spurgeon is unknown. -- he'll have safe seats. Can I

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commend the Minister his judicious handling of this question and can I

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also underlined the importance to all abuzz for respecting

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constitutional principles, is it not the case that is an independent body

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and this needs to be respected. Do not believe in a free pass and

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therefore that proprietors should have the right to appoint who they

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believe is right to be editor without the executive of anybody

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else interfering in that decision and is it not as the case that

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whoever represents the constituencies should be up to its

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voters not to be position to decree? As ever, my right honourable friend

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is very good at making clear the liberties that underpin our

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democracy into often we forget. Those of those who were here at the

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time remember how difficult it was to restore the reputation of this

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House after the expenses scandal. Is there therefore not a wider issue

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here, about the way in which the public look upon what they would

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describe as the "Political class", and the feeling justified or

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otherwise that we are all greedy and on the make, we have got to be

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careful we are not all part of the Saint Roch. The honourable gentleman

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was in this House where in three... I have to say that he will know of

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previous examples where this has happened. I do think it is important

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that we actually judge this situation in the context of whether

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we think that members of Parliament should have employment outside.

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There are arguments on both side and it is important that we do not

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reduce this to an ad hominem attack which would create buried at policy.

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May I gently say to the honourable member that it has never been

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suggested that during the five or six weeks that he was in Copeland as

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Labour Party organiser for the campaign, nobody ever suggested that

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he abandoned or did anything wrong by way of his constituents? Mr

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Speaker, across this House members of all parties worked extremely hard

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and especially when you have the ultimate second job as a minister,

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as the Secretary of State, as Chancellor of the Exchequer and also

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as a Prime Minister, would my right honourable friend agree with that

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anyone who does any of the work in addition to their duties as a member

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of Parliament actually brings huge amounts of experience into this

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chamber that makes all abuzz represent everyone in this country

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even better and would he also agree with me that the ultimate judge on

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this are the constituents who at the ballot box computers out of the do

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not like what we do. I thank my right honourable friend and she is

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right to say that ultimately the judge of our behaviour and

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performance would be constituents. There are very strong arguments to

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allow people to have outside influences and the other way but

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they need to be reconciled with more time and more thought than would be

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deserved at an urgent question. I repeat my earlier point that I

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really do believe that all abuzz duty not just to our own interests

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women make these decisions actually to the wider reputation of our

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democracy. -- that all of us have a duty not just to our own interests.

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At risk of upsetting the new editor of my city's newspaper, I think

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there is an air of complete unreality of some of the exchanges

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this afternoon. The trust of the public in both politicians and media

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has never been so low. What it do to the trust of the public in

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politicians with the idea that people could have a number of roles

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including editing in newspaper, what is it deeper the reputation of media

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in a near our fake news to have someone editing a newspaper who has

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no qualifications to do so? And I would ask the Minister, in relation

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to the question of the honourable member for whole North about

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apprenticeship bonding I know that I want a printed gene bonding in

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London and so would be editor of my local newspaper, but what would the

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right honourable member Bottas and think? We cannot ask ministers to

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speculate about what individual right honourable member 's would

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think. What ever the conflict may be I am the determinant of what is an

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orderly question and I would ask the honourable gentleman to graciously

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accept that I'm trying to do the right thing in balancing different

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considerations, but we must adhere to order. The Minister is a text

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just fell out and he will answer in a way that is orderly and not in a

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way that isn't, I know. I thank the honourable gentleman, he is incisive

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in a way yes his question and I agree with him that we have a

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challenge, all abuzz in raising the reputation of our democratic

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institutions. That all of ours. That would not be served by a minister of

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the Crown coming to the dispatch box on Monday to give a new policy

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announcement just to suit the particular agenda of the day. It is

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a matter for the House to come to a wider consideration of whether they

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think it is right or wrong people to have outside interests, I think

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there are arguments on both sides. In the meantime, all need to

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consider our individual duties to the wider body politic in the way

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that we behave. But he has a justified reputation for his

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devotion and assiduous work that he was on his ministerial duties, as it

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diminished in anyway his ability to serve his constituents? It has not,

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in any way at all. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Will the Minister please

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referred to the advisory committee, the dilemma that exists when a

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former minister is given a particular appointment on the basis

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of his geographical location, but then subsequently secures a further

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appointment which flatly contradicts the interest that he was meant to

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serve but that previous appointment? Pana London standard editor look

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after the Northern Powerhouse? Haase can a. That is not for me to make

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that determination it is but the independent advisory committee and

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they will make a recommendation to my right honourable friend. I know

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he wants me to say something controversial, but it would be wrong

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to undermine the process which is going through at the moment in the

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committee and it would be wrong for me to prejudice that decision by

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saying one thing or the other. Many people in this House have

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second jobs, yours is speak of this House, and you do it assiduously

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while being able to serve your constituents. Could the Minister

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please help me to understand which jobs would be considered acceptable

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by the government or by another statutory body? Many people write

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books, own land and property. Should they therefore sell into monastic

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simplicity and become a political class or should they represent the

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economy and people of this country by maintaining an intact body of

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effort with other people? I congratulate... We must have a fair

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hearing to members on both sides and to the Minister. Earlier members

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were moaning that the Minister needed to speak up a bit. The

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Minister is immensely courteous. The House should be courteous to the

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Minister. My congratulations to my honourable friend the moving himself

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up and speaking order of the debate. We might need an extra bottle of

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water. Thank you. Welcome to the Public Accounts Committee. We are

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here to look at Ambulance Services on the back of a study done by the

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National Audit Office which... It is one this House is right to discuss,

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should do so with time and the dignity, and I would suggest it is

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not the right place to do it now. Is the Minister aware that these are

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roughly the same kind of arguments emanating from both sides of the

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House as they were 40 years ago when we attempted to set up the register?

:26:47.:26:53.

It has not changed except, over the years, there has been a desire by

:26:54.:26:58.

the majority members to ensure that the register and the duties of MPs

:26:59.:27:05.

are strengthened. The real question to be answered now, how can a

:27:06.:27:14.

full-time politician be a full-time editor of the daily newspaper? It is

:27:15.:27:23.

one of the many reasons why Ed I admire the honourable gentleman. He

:27:24.:27:28.

walked out of the pit, stricter displays, and gave an experience to

:27:29.:27:30.

the House of Commons that few people on both benches would be able to

:27:31.:27:35.

provide. It is of enormous rally to this House. I am not in a position

:27:36.:27:39.

to make a judgment that he invites me to make. I would ask that the

:27:40.:27:45.

committee on business interests provide the Independent report first

:27:46.:27:49.

before we judge this particular incident and that he contributes his

:27:50.:27:53.

thoughts to the wider considerations. I believe that there

:27:54.:27:59.

are strong arguments in his favour and strong arguments on the other

:28:00.:28:01.

side and they should be discussed. As my right honourable friend has

:28:02.:28:05.

said, there is a fine balance between those who have outside

:28:06.:28:10.

interests and those who do not. I believe that this House is enriched

:28:11.:28:15.

by those who have outside interests. And I further believe that they do

:28:16.:28:22.

not enhance this House. That may I say to the honourable member, a

:28:23.:28:30.

Labour Party swearword when he talks with his faux outrage? Can I remind

:28:31.:28:31.

him of Tony Blair? Those two words on the one likely to

:28:32.:28:49.

anger the benches opposite the members on our own site. I think it

:28:50.:28:55.

is very difficult to frame this debate by looking at particular

:28:56.:28:58.

examples because we have to look at the generality. There are 650 MPs.

:28:59.:29:05.

Many have different interests outside. Some are in professions and

:29:06.:29:09.

summoned the charitable sector. When we go down this road, we will have

:29:10.:29:13.

to judge which things we judge to be more valuable than others. That is a

:29:14.:29:23.

very difficult path to travel down. Tomorrow, I have meetings in this

:29:24.:29:30.

place from 8:30am until 8:30pm, including two select committees, and

:29:31.:29:33.

we have several ex-ministers chairing committees and doing an

:29:34.:29:39.

excellent job. Is that not where the expertise should be directed, to

:29:40.:29:42.

scrutinising the work of the Executive and chewing a job here and

:29:43.:29:48.

not somewhere else? I am sure that my right honourable friend will

:29:49.:29:50.

continue to contribute to this House. I have got no doubt that he

:29:51.:29:57.

will continue to do so over the months ahead. It is right we all

:29:58.:30:02.

contribute in our own ways, the way we best discharge our talents, and I

:30:03.:30:07.

would hope that would be the same for all MPs. The honourable member

:30:08.:30:16.

for Tatton's honourable friends have all jumped to his defence and used

:30:17.:30:24.

the argument that this interest will help the member state in Parliament.

:30:25.:30:29.

It quite clearly is not contributing to the House. The Minister also says

:30:30.:30:37.

that people standing in the face for re-election but unfortunately,

:30:38.:30:43.

you've got safe seats with voters do not have a choice, so will the

:30:44.:30:49.

government look at this? The former leader of the honourable gentleman's

:30:50.:30:53.

party writes a column for a newspaper. I am not sure... I am not

:30:54.:31:01.

saying that is right or wrong. The reaction suggests they may feel

:31:02.:31:04.

guilty about putting the question. The point is, this is not an easy or

:31:05.:31:10.

binary decision to come to because when is it to March, one, two, five?

:31:11.:31:18.

This is a decision that the House should come to after a long and

:31:19.:31:24.

careful thought and it would be good if people actually expressed in

:31:25.:31:28.

those terms rather than expressing outrage when indeed, on their own

:31:29.:31:31.

side, they have their own members who have outside interests. Given

:31:32.:31:38.

some of the contributions for the benches opposite, it is a shame the

:31:39.:31:43.

honourable member does not still dish up ministerial jobs because a

:31:44.:31:48.

few of them would deserve that. But this issue of public concern is very

:31:49.:31:54.

widespread and disaffection with the political process, I would say, is

:31:55.:31:58.

even more acute in the North of England. What am I to say to my

:31:59.:32:05.

constituents who feel time again that, despite all the talk of the

:32:06.:32:09.

Northern Powerhouse, we had done the London? I share her concern. It is

:32:10.:32:18.

one that together we will have to rebuild. Genuinely, if we conduct

:32:19.:32:26.

politics in a way which is disrespectful in order to get the

:32:27.:32:30.

day's headlines the next day, we will only continue to undermine the

:32:31.:32:37.

politics that we all seek to serve. That is why we need to understand

:32:38.:32:41.

this calmly, dispassionately and make sure we come to the right

:32:42.:32:47.

decision. That is why we are devolving power to Manchester,

:32:48.:32:52.

precisely so we can get that kind of representation she is calling for an

:32:53.:32:58.

as conservatives we are keen to see that devolution happen, and I hope

:32:59.:33:01.

she is happy with that result when it finally comes to pass over the

:33:02.:33:07.

next few months. The minister seize this moment to congratulate all

:33:08.:33:11.

those colleagues on all sides of the House who serve as reservists and

:33:12.:33:17.

practices doctors and nurses? Does this not illustrate the opposition

:33:18.:33:20.

is more concerned with the nature of the employment rather than the

:33:21.:33:25.

employment itself? My honourable friend, my neighbour, is a

:33:26.:33:34.

practising doctor. My honourable friend is a practising nurse. These

:33:35.:33:38.

are two people who bring particular expertise and skills to our chamber,

:33:39.:33:42.

which would not otherwise be there. There are good reasons and arguments

:33:43.:33:47.

for that but there are reasons and arguments to the country. They are

:33:48.:33:50.

balanced and we need to have that discussion and come to a conclusion

:33:51.:33:54.

because, whatever conclusion we come will have profound implications for

:33:55.:34:02.

the way our democracy functions. I do not own any broad rolling acres,

:34:03.:34:08.

sadly. But I do have some skin in the game is the author of the red

:34:09.:34:16.

column entitled pound notes. However, I am concerned, where as I

:34:17.:34:20.

would not wish to attack anybody in this House nor would I be clement is

:34:21.:34:24.

the former leader of my party, I feel the Minister should perhaps

:34:25.:34:27.

have a quiet word with one of his colleagues about the ministerial

:34:28.:34:31.

code and the actual job that Members of Parliament are doing. 20% of the

:34:32.:34:35.

work comes into my office probably should not be done by an MP, so can

:34:36.:34:40.

we get some good out of this sorry business and look at first

:34:41.:34:45.

principles, go back to basics? I agree with much of what the

:34:46.:34:49.

honourable gentleman has said and as ever he speaks a great deal of

:34:50.:34:54.

sense. And a former age, he would've been granted many thousands of acres

:34:55.:35:00.

just for making the point. I declare an interest as a former NCT J

:35:01.:35:10.

qualified journalist and a member of the National Union of Journalists,

:35:11.:35:12.

which I hope the right honourable member of Tampa and will join in

:35:13.:35:19.

short course. Much has been made of the potential political conflict of

:35:20.:35:23.

interest but would they also like to address potential commercial

:35:24.:35:25.

conflicts of interest, especially given the Treasury is one of the

:35:26.:35:28.

biggest spenders and newspaper advertising? Would he published

:35:29.:35:37.

details of that expenditure? I remember the honourable gentleman's

:35:38.:35:41.

contributions to BBC Look East with interest. He is right to say the

:35:42.:35:46.

government spends money on newspaper advertising. It does so

:35:47.:35:49.

independently and as arranged by civil servants. Indeed, a colleague

:35:50.:35:56.

of his asked a Parliamentary question about the nature of the

:35:57.:36:00.

spend of the last few years and I provided the answer, which is in the

:36:01.:36:06.

library. When the former Chancellor Thomas does a surplus in 2020, none

:36:07.:36:11.

of us were expecting him to go about it quite in this manner, but I am

:36:12.:36:15.

concerned that the right honourable member maybe overstretching himself.

:36:16.:36:20.

Will it take account of the European working Time regulations in ensuring

:36:21.:36:25.

he is not damaging women's health by working excessive hours? I am not

:36:26.:36:34.

sure any of us complies faithfully to the European working Time

:36:35.:36:40.

directive. My right honourable friend was an industrious man as

:36:41.:36:43.

Chancellor of the Exchequer. No doubt he will continue to be

:36:44.:36:47.

industrious in whatever form he wishes to take. The Minister said

:36:48.:36:53.

earlier that day by the rumble member had not received the advice

:36:54.:36:58.

was stopped Cani confirm that honourable and right Honourable

:36:59.:37:01.

members are not in breach of the rules by announcing positions until

:37:02.:37:05.

they have received advice? Cani also confirmed they have no teeth to

:37:06.:37:08.

enforce rules that have been breached? It is the act to make

:37:09.:37:16.

recommendations and conditions, and they often enforce conditions. In

:37:17.:37:20.

the period leading up to 2010 and just after, of the 43 ministers who

:37:21.:37:26.

made applications to take outside employment, only 12 were allowed to

:37:27.:37:31.

do so without conditions. They are able to provide conditions. It is

:37:32.:37:35.

for them to judge specifically in this case had they feel the process

:37:36.:37:39.

has been undertaken. They will take into account all the evidence and

:37:40.:37:43.

will publish that on the Internet very soon and honourable lady will

:37:44.:37:47.

be of the seared, as will everyone else. Many people will think that

:37:48.:37:53.

parliamentarians, before the end of this place, should have sufficient

:37:54.:37:57.

life experience. But does the Minister believe they should be an

:37:58.:38:00.

upper limit on the number of outside jobs that MPs are allowed to take?

:38:01.:38:05.

That is something the committee is thinking about and it is entirely

:38:06.:38:12.

right that the House should do so. I want to point out to her that one of

:38:13.:38:17.

the reasons I believe we are in this situation the colleagues of hers and

:38:18.:38:21.

mine have identified, politicians being held in low esteem, is the

:38:22.:38:27.

culture that grew up over the 15 years of immediate answers to

:38:28.:38:32.

stories in the press just in order for the government to show that it

:38:33.:38:37.

was ahead of some media game. That's not the way to get faith and

:38:38.:38:42.

politics or trust in politicians. We need to be considerate and

:38:43.:38:46.

deliberative and think carefully about the problems in front of us,

:38:47.:38:52.

including members of this House who should discuss this dispassionately

:38:53.:38:54.

and calmly and with dignity in the weeks and months ahead.

:38:55.:39:01.

I've only got one job, representing the people of the City of Chester.

:39:02.:39:08.

Can the Minister confirm or comment on the fact that... Should not be

:39:09.:39:15.

accepted formally or announced until they have announced the conditions

:39:16.:39:23.

of that job. I think we'll look at this particular case and make their

:39:24.:39:26.

judgment on it and the process that's happened independently. I

:39:27.:39:29.

think he won't mind if I don't make a point at this stage because it

:39:30.:39:33.

will prejudice what they say. Let's see what they say and we will bend

:39:34.:39:36.

no doubt want to return to the matter, because this house will

:39:37.:39:39.

continue to be interested in it. Thank you. Point of order. Through

:39:40.:39:47.

you Mr Speaker, may I thank the opposition for rating this point. I

:39:48.:39:50.

think they've done a tremendous job in uniting this side of our house

:39:51.:39:54.

behind our right honourable friend the member for Tatham. The

:39:55.:39:59.

honourable gentleman knows perfectly well that is not a point of order,

:40:00.:40:05.

but he's made his own point in his own way and it is on the record. And

:40:06.:40:11.

we'll leave it there. Order. In a moment I shall call Alison Pulis to

:40:12.:40:22.

make and application for leave to propose a debate on an important

:40:23.:40:30.

matter... In a moment I will call if the honourable gentleman would be

:40:31.:40:34.

kind enough to do me the courtesy... I will call Alison to make an

:40:35.:40:37.

application for leave to propose a debate on a specific and important

:40:38.:40:41.

matter that should have urgent consideration under standing order

:40:42.:40:44.

number 24. The honourable member has up to three minutes in which to make

:40:45.:40:51.

such an application. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I seek to propose how

:40:52.:40:55.

should debate an important matter that should have urgent

:40:56.:41:00.

consideration, the introduction of the sex exemption in terms of tax

:41:01.:41:06.

credits, which I will refer to as the rape clause. Since it was

:41:07.:41:14.

proposed in the summer budget 2015I have pursued this matter

:41:15.:41:17.

relentlessly. I have used every means available to me through

:41:18.:41:21.

questions on debates on no fewer than 25 occasions in this house. The

:41:22.:41:24.

Government should by now have had adequate time to either we find or

:41:25.:41:29.

buy my preference abandoned this deeply flawed policy. The reason I

:41:30.:41:33.

am calling for this debate is there are deep gaps which will leave

:41:34.:41:37.

vulnerable women expose. The Government has sought to reassure me

:41:38.:41:41.

many times that women making a claim under the rape clause will be

:41:42.:41:47.

treated sensitively, that they can go through third-party professionals

:41:48.:41:54.

like nurses or social workers. Answers to written Parliamentary

:41:55.:41:56.

questions I have tabled an expose there has been no training, none, in

:41:57.:42:00.

domestic violence or in the application of the policy to these

:42:01.:42:05.

660,000 third-party professionals with the policy due to come into

:42:06.:42:11.

force very soon on the 6th of April. This puts vulnerable women seeking

:42:12.:42:14.

to make a claim presenting herself to a GP, nurse or social worker to

:42:15.:42:18.

reveal her third child was conceived as a result of rape. For that

:42:19.:42:27.

professional to establish this without training, what kind of

:42:28.:42:32.

response can she expect to get Tristram Hunt the Government are

:42:33.:42:35.

still saying today that they will bring forward guidance. When? I

:42:36.:42:39.

remind houses policy goes live on the 6th of April, in the middle of

:42:40.:42:44.

recess. How will we know, as parliamentarians, if the Government

:42:45.:42:47.

has done what it says it will do? I have also had information shared

:42:48.:42:51.

with meats by a member of HMRC staff who wishes to remain anonymous. This

:42:52.:42:55.

member of staff told me the sensitive unit that will deal with

:42:56.:42:59.

rape clause claims will not go live until the 6th of April. Until then

:43:00.:43:03.

HMRC staff are crossing their fingers they don't get enquiries

:43:04.:43:06.

from the public about a sensitive issue for which they have not been

:43:07.:43:12.

trained. Utterly unacceptable. The Government has been dodging scrutiny

:43:13.:43:15.

on this issue from the start, burying this at the back of the 2016

:43:16.:43:19.

budget. Being Fulston to hold a consultation they didn't want to

:43:20.:43:23.

run, sneaking out the response to that consultation during Trump's

:43:24.:43:29.

inauguration and laying statutory instrument three last week to avoid

:43:30.:43:34.

debate in this house. I feel compelled to appeal to you, Mr

:43:35.:43:37.

Speaker, to grant this emergency debate. Women who have faced the

:43:38.:43:41.

worst trauma of their lives, being raped on becoming pregnant as a

:43:42.:43:46.

result, the most serious and dangerous sexual assaults on being

:43:47.:43:50.

forced to relive that trauma just to claim tax credits. It's a despicable

:43:51.:43:54.

invasion of privacy. I think we owe it to these women and their children

:43:55.:44:00.

to hold these ministers to account. Leave to propose a debate on a

:44:01.:44:07.

matter that should have urgent consideration, the introduction of

:44:08.:44:10.

the nonconsensual exemption in terms of tax credits. I've listened

:44:11.:44:13.

carefully to the application from the honourable member but I'm not

:44:14.:44:17.

did this matter is proper to be discussed under standing order

:44:18.:44:21.

number 24. The standing order does not permit me to give my reasons to

:44:22.:44:26.

the House. I shall therefore simply observe that a prayer has been

:44:27.:44:30.

tabled against the regulations and I would hope and anticipate that the

:44:31.:44:38.

usual channels will find time for it to be debated.

:44:39.:44:45.

Order. The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day.

:44:46.:44:50.

Citizens Courts Bill, second reading. I called the Secretary of

:44:51.:45:01.

State for Justice, Liz Truss. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the

:45:02.:45:07.

Bill now be read a second time. This Bill makes the most significant

:45:08.:45:12.

changes to the prisons act 1952 since it past 65 years ago. For the

:45:13.:45:18.

first time it will be clear that the Government isn't just responsible

:45:19.:45:22.

for housing prisoners, it will also be clear that a key purpose of

:45:23.:45:27.

prisons is to reform prisoners and prepare them for their return to the

:45:28.:45:33.

community. This means getting prisoners off drugs, into work and

:45:34.:45:36.

improving their education whilst they are in prison. Together with

:45:37.:45:42.

greater powers for governors, performance tables and sharper

:45:43.:45:46.

inspections, more people will leave prisons preformed on this look cut

:45:47.:45:51.

the 15 billion cost to society of reoffending that we all face every

:45:52.:45:54.

year. I will give way to the honourable gentleman.

:45:55.:45:59.

People want to be angry about prisoners and say it is all their

:46:00.:46:03.

own fault but a large proportion of people in prison have suffered major

:46:04.:46:10.

brain traumas through fights or various other different means.

:46:11.:46:14.

Actually the support that is available in the wider community

:46:15.:46:17.

through the health service can fully rehabilitate them and bring them

:46:18.:46:22.

back into society but the support in prison is still very weak. Will the

:46:23.:46:24.

Government be doing more to tackle that?

:46:25.:46:28.

The honourable member is absolutely right, that many people in prison to

:46:29.:46:34.

suffer from serious issues like the ones he raises. That's why we going

:46:35.:46:38.

to give prison governors to commissioning powers over health

:46:39.:46:43.

services in their prisons, so they can design around the needs of those

:46:44.:46:47.

offenders, helping them get the treatment they need so they can live

:46:48.:46:53.

a law for life once they leaves prison. This Bill will also usher in

:46:54.:46:58.

a new era for our courts, modern sizing a process that remains

:46:59.:47:01.

fundamentally unchanged from the Victorian era. -- modernising

:47:02.:47:07.

process. Our reforms create a system fit for the 21st century. This will

:47:08.:47:11.

provide better protection for vulnerable victims and witnesses, it

:47:12.:47:15.

will improve access to justice for ordinary walking -- working people,

:47:16.:47:20.

will be able to access the courts and a simpler and more efficient

:47:21.:47:23.

way. It will also promote our reputation for global legal

:47:24.:47:27.

excellence on the best place to do business. I will now talk through

:47:28.:47:30.

the detail of the Bill but first I will give way to the honourable

:47:31.:47:34.

gentleman. Can I say I welcome the access to

:47:35.:47:38.

justice proposals contained in the Bill. I would urge her to discuss

:47:39.:47:43.

with the devolved administrations, in particular Northern Ireland,

:47:44.:47:45.

hopefully when we get a government up and running again, that the

:47:46.:47:49.

process there will be rolled out to Northern Ireland that we can share

:47:50.:47:52.

in the expertise and the expense of that system that you have put in

:47:53.:47:56.

place. I thank the honourable member for

:47:57.:48:00.

his point. I understand he's had a demonstration of our system and I

:48:01.:48:03.

look forward to discussing it with him further, about how we can share

:48:04.:48:09.

best practice. Prisons rightly punish those who break the law. But

:48:10.:48:14.

they should be a place of safety and reform, where prisoners can turn

:48:15.:48:19.

their lives around and lead a law for life outside prison. Sadly that

:48:20.:48:24.

is not the case at the moment. The levels of violence in our prisons

:48:25.:48:28.

are too high, as last week's shocking attack on the young officer

:48:29.:48:32.

at Oak Hill shows and I'm sure the thoughts of all of those in this

:48:33.:48:36.

house with him and his family at this very difficult time.

:48:37.:48:41.

We also have very worrying levels of self harm and deaths in custody. The

:48:42.:48:47.

prison safety and reform white paper which I launched in November, set

:48:48.:48:51.

out a clear plan, combining immediate action to increase

:48:52.:48:56.

staffing level and tracking drugs, drones and phones with radical

:48:57.:49:00.

reforms to get offenders off drugs, into work and away from crime for

:49:01.:49:03.

good. I will take some intervention in a minute once I've made a bit of

:49:04.:49:07.

progress. Whilst there is much we can do and are doing operationally,

:49:08.:49:12.

part one of this Bill addresses areas that require primary

:49:13.:49:16.

legislation. First of all the Bill enshrines into law the purpose of

:49:17.:49:22.

prison and it sets out the prisons must aim to Duque four things. First

:49:23.:49:27.

they must protect the public, holding prisoners securely is a core

:49:28.:49:32.

job at the prisons, protecting the public from the risk that offenders

:49:33.:49:36.

pose an prisons must do all they can to prevent security failures.

:49:37.:49:43.

Secondly, prisons must reform and rehabilitate offenders. They must

:49:44.:49:46.

give them the opportunities to allow them to turn their back on crime,

:49:47.:49:51.

which means tackling drug and alcohol addiction. It means tackling

:49:52.:49:55.

the mental health issues. It means giving offenders opportunities to

:49:56.:49:59.

work and get training and apprenticeships whilst there are in

:50:00.:50:02.

prison and also to improve their English and maths and to maintain

:50:03.:50:06.

family ties. I will give way to my honourable friend.

:50:07.:50:10.

I am most grateful to my right honourable friend. May I say how

:50:11.:50:13.

much I welcome this legislation, which seems to me to be going

:50:14.:50:17.

exactly in the right direction, in terms of reforming prisons. But she

:50:18.:50:22.

will also be aware that ultimately the ability to deliver these

:50:23.:50:26.

programmes is going to be intimately dependent on reducing prison

:50:27.:50:30.

overcrowding. Because without it, we've seen on many previous

:50:31.:50:35.

occasions that however good the programmes, they found as the

:50:36.:50:38.

prisons come under strain. Can she keep that in mind and is anything

:50:39.:50:42.

she can tell the House in the course of the second reading of what

:50:43.:50:44.

strategy she might have in mind to try and address that issue?

:50:45.:50:50.

I thank my honourable friend for his question. We have of course held the

:50:51.:50:54.

prison population stable for the last six years. There are some

:50:55.:50:59.

areas, such as sex offences, where we've seen sentences rise and I

:51:00.:51:04.

think that is right, because those are serious crimes that weren't

:51:05.:51:07.

receiving the level of punishment that we would expect. However, as

:51:08.:51:11.

I've said before and I made in the speech a few weeks ago, I think

:51:12.:51:17.

there is more we can do to prevent people committing those crimes that

:51:18.:51:21.

lead to custody, by tackling issues earlier on, whether that is drug

:51:22.:51:25.

addiction, alcohol abuse, whether it is not being in education and

:51:26.:51:29.

training. I look forward to saying more about that in due course. I

:51:30.:51:35.

will give way. I'm grateful to the Lord Chancellor

:51:36.:51:38.

for giving way. Nobody will disagree with the statements she is made

:51:39.:51:44.

relating to clause one of the Bill, they are sensible and sound. She

:51:45.:51:47.

must recognise all the indicators are rising on self harm, assault and

:51:48.:51:52.

every other indicator we have on there are six and a half thousand

:51:53.:51:55.

fewer officers than seven years ago. Could she tell us how many officers

:51:56.:52:00.

she is recruited to date, how many she expects to recruit and how she

:52:01.:52:04.

can keep a prison population as it was in 2010 with few officers?

:52:05.:52:10.

As the honourable gentleman knows we have a programme to recruit 2500

:52:11.:52:14.

additional officers across the estate. I can confirm we've started

:52:15.:52:19.

in ten of the most challenging prisons. We've now successfully

:52:20.:52:24.

secured those complement of officers in those first ten prisons, which we

:52:25.:52:28.

said we would do by the end of March. We now have a record number

:52:29.:52:33.

of officers in training, over 700, but I don't and I it's a challenging

:52:34.:52:39.

task to recruit those officers. But as the honourable gentleman knows

:52:40.:52:43.

from his experience as Prisons Minister, it's vital we do that

:52:44.:52:46.

because it's only by having qualified and skilled officers that

:52:47.:52:48.

we will help turn those lives around. I'm not just interested in

:52:49.:52:53.

numbers. I'm also interested in the career prospects we give officers,

:52:54.:52:57.

the additional training we give officers and that's why we are

:52:58.:53:01.

putting in an additional 2000 senior officer posts across the country.

:53:02.:53:07.

Those will be paid upward of ?30,000 and those will reward officers who

:53:08.:53:13.

got additional training in areas like mental health. But as the

:53:14.:53:15.

honourable gentleman realises, it takes time to recruit and train

:53:16.:53:17.

those officers. But am absolutely determined to do that because

:53:18.:53:21.

alongside these reforms, that is what is going to make the difference

:53:22.:53:25.

on the ground in our prisons, having trained officers that can make a

:53:26.:53:32.

difference. I will give way. I think I can help with an idea. 10%

:53:33.:53:38.

of the prison population, actually it's more like 15%, foreign

:53:39.:53:43.

prisoners. The ones from Albania, Jamaica, Somalia, Nigeria, they make

:53:44.:53:46.

up about 20% of foreign prisoners. Surely we can have arrangements

:53:47.:53:50.

whereby these prisoners are sent back to their own friendly

:53:51.:53:53.

countries, including Commonwealth countries it might help with

:53:54.:53:58.

arrangements for both countries. My honourable friend is absolutely

:53:59.:54:01.

right. I'm pleased to say a record number of foreign offenders were

:54:02.:54:05.

sent back last year, but we are doing even more on this and are

:54:06.:54:08.

making progress. My honourable friend the Prisons Minister is

:54:09.:54:12.

working on that very hard. I will give way to my honourable friend. I

:54:13.:54:17.

am very grateful to the right honourable lady for giving way. Can

:54:18.:54:22.

I also welcomed the Bill, particularly the emphasis that is

:54:23.:54:25.

put under the purpose of prison. She will be aware one of the most

:54:26.:54:28.

successful young offender programmes is that it's run by National Grid,

:54:29.:54:32.

which has been going for many years and they now have 80 partner

:54:33.:54:35.

companies working with them. They have got the reoffending rate down

:54:36.:54:41.

from the average, which is way over 50% to 7%. In particular some of

:54:42.:54:45.

their partner companies have been working really hard with Brixton

:54:46.:54:50.

prison with this release on temporary licence. I understand

:54:51.:54:55.

Brixton has recently been removed from the road to yell regime and is

:54:56.:54:59.

causing some difficulty because there are no other prisons in London

:55:00.:55:04.

that satisfy those criteria. -- ROTL. Which she look into this and

:55:05.:55:08.

think about putting this on the face of the Bill because this ROTL scheme

:55:09.:55:12.

is really working for young offenders. The honourable lady was

:55:13.:55:18.

keen to prove that her intervention was erudite and compressive and in

:55:19.:55:22.

that mission I think the honourable lady has been successful, or even

:55:23.:55:25.

the right honourable lady. I thank my right honourable friend

:55:26.:55:28.

for her point. She is absolutely right that it's by getting employers

:55:29.:55:34.

who want to employ people on the outside and getting them to train

:55:35.:55:39.

offenders on the inside that will help create that path into work that

:55:40.:55:43.

reduces reoffending. I've been to Brixton and seen the work they are

:55:44.:55:48.

doing with offenders, which is fantastic. I know that the questions

:55:49.:55:52.

she posed is already being addressed by my right honourable friend the

:55:53.:55:57.

Prisons Minister. We won the ability for people to be able to get that

:55:58.:56:02.

experience in work, so they can leave prison into a job and lead a

:56:03.:56:07.

lawful life. We are also launching a strategy unemployment, to try and

:56:08.:56:12.

get more employers like National Grid and Simpsons on Holford that

:56:13.:56:16.

already do fantastic work, to sign up to employing those ex-offenders

:56:17.:56:19.

because that benefits all of us. I will give way.

:56:20.:56:25.

She has mentioned already how important staffing is. It is to be

:56:26.:56:33.

welcomed, the roll-out of a 1-6 ratio in public sector prisons. What

:56:34.:56:37.

I do not understand is why that would not apply to private prisons

:56:38.:56:40.

because they deal with the same challenges as those in the public

:56:41.:56:45.

sector. I thank the Honourable lady. I should clarify that what is is a

:56:46.:56:52.

1-6 caseload. What that means is each officer will have

:56:53.:56:56.

responsibility for six offenders, which they are in charge of making

:56:57.:57:01.

sure the offenders are safe but encouraging them to reform while

:57:02.:57:07.

they are imprisoned. I tell her that their head of the prison service is

:57:08.:57:10.

in discussions with the private sector prisons to make sure they

:57:11.:57:15.

also have access to the same level of staffing. We want that to apply

:57:16.:57:21.

in both the private and public sector. I do need to make a bit more

:57:22.:57:25.

progress, otherwise I will not get through this in time. I am feeling

:57:26.:57:31.

generous. I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I am grateful

:57:32.:57:37.

to the Lord Chancellor in giving way. She has set out this aspiration

:57:38.:57:42.

before. I wonder if maybe now she can set out a timescale as to when

:57:43.:57:47.

it will be we will get the ratios and the imbalance between the public

:57:48.:57:50.

and private sector corrected. When will that happen? I can assure the

:57:51.:57:56.

honourable gentleman it is on the same timescale as the public sector

:57:57.:58:00.

programme, so over the next year and a half is when we will deliver that.

:58:01.:58:05.

I will give way to my honourable friend. Thank you for giving way. I

:58:06.:58:10.

commend her for much of what she is doing in this bill. I was just

:58:11.:58:15.

curious as to why, when she makes great pains to stress the importance

:58:16.:58:20.

of mental health and the links with reoffending and the importance of

:58:21.:58:23.

reducing self harm and other issues in prisons, why, when one of the

:58:24.:58:29.

fundamental duties is not to promote and protect the mental health and

:58:30.:58:34.

well-being of prisoners? I know my honourable friend takes a strong

:58:35.:58:38.

interest in this area. I can assure him in terms of the commissioning

:58:39.:58:42.

arrangements for governors, they will get those powers to specify

:58:43.:58:45.

mental health treatment in their own prisons. At the moment, governors

:58:46.:58:50.

have complained to me that mental health services are only available

:58:51.:58:54.

five days a week and that is an issue when someone arrives in the

:58:55.:58:58.

prison at the weekend with serious health issues. What they will be

:58:59.:59:01.

able to do is co-commissioners services. Under the categories of

:59:02.:59:08.

reforming and rehabilitating offenders, we have also announced

:59:09.:59:13.

there will be specific performance metrics and some of those will be

:59:14.:59:20.

covering health issues. We will be saying more about that in due

:59:21.:59:24.

course. It is part of the reform measures we are putting in place and

:59:25.:59:30.

it will be covered in the specific performance agreements that

:59:31.:59:34.

individual prisons have with me as Secretary of State. I will give way

:59:35.:59:39.

on one more occasion and then I will make progress. I'm grateful for

:59:40.:59:44.

giving way. Astin Grange prison in York has the lowest reoffending rate

:59:45.:59:49.

in the country. For two years, the Government has been saying it will

:59:50.:59:52.

close the women's prison. Will the Lord Chancellor look at that again

:59:53.:59:58.

confirmed she will not do that because it is such an excellent

:59:59.:00:02.

prison? I will be happy to that issue and will be launching a new

:00:03.:00:05.

strategy for women offenders about how we can better make sure that we

:00:06.:00:13.

deal with underlying issues, whether that is substance abuse, whether it

:00:14.:00:18.

is issues of abuse and domestic violence, so that we can get a

:00:19.:00:23.

better solution and prevent women from committing the crimes that lead

:00:24.:00:29.

them into custody. We will cover what the honourable lady has

:00:30.:00:37.

specifically mentioned. Also preparing prisoners for life outside

:00:38.:00:41.

prison. As has already been mentioned. Making sure there is

:00:42.:00:46.

sustainable employment, making sure there is a home for the offender to

:00:47.:00:52.

go to is vitally important in reducing reoffending. I will give

:00:53.:01:03.

way. There is a prison in my constituency. They have been

:01:04.:01:06.

pioneers in a programme called jobs, friends and families. Could I ask

:01:07.:01:10.

the minister to have a look at some of the programme is being run by

:01:11.:01:13.

this prison to see if we can incorporate that because it does

:01:14.:01:15.

make a difference to people's lives? I would be very happy to see the

:01:16.:01:21.

details of that scheme. What we are doing in our performance measures

:01:22.:01:25.

and the way we are looking at the governors being empowered is areas

:01:26.:01:29.

like family ties will be included. Governors will be given control of

:01:30.:01:34.

their budget for helping prisoners with their family ties. We have had

:01:35.:01:38.

a report from Lord Farmer, who I am meeting this week to discuss

:01:39.:01:44.

further. As well as having work, a home to go to, having a supportive

:01:45.:01:50.

family, it can be a very important part of rehabilitation. All of those

:01:51.:01:54.

things, the governor needs to look at. What I am setting out is very

:01:55.:02:00.

clear expectations of what prisons should be doing but not how they

:02:01.:02:04.

should do it. I believe it is up to the individual governor to look at

:02:05.:02:07.

what works in their area, what works for the people in that individual

:02:08.:02:11.

prisons, and to be given flexibility to be able to deliver things in an

:02:12.:02:16.

innovative way. That is very important as well. I'll be very

:02:17.:02:19.

clear about the standards we expect that how they do it will be much

:02:20.:02:23.

more down to governors and that is very important. Does the Lord

:02:24.:02:30.

Chancellor agreed that one of the key recommendations of Lord Farmer

:02:31.:02:36.

is going, in itself, if we are able to tackle the links with families,

:02:37.:02:42.

in itself reduce reoffending? He will show that 63% of the children

:02:43.:02:46.

of offenders themselves grow up to offend. Does she agree it is

:02:47.:02:51.

important that we intervene early to ensure that does not actually

:02:52.:02:55.

happen? My honourable friend is absolutely correct on that point. We

:02:56.:03:01.

do have an issue with those children often feeling that they have done

:03:02.:03:05.

something wrong. It is absolutely wrong they should be punished for a

:03:06.:03:10.

crime their parent has committed. I am determined to do what we can to

:03:11.:03:15.

make sure that innovative schemes like storybook dads, which helps to

:03:16.:03:20.

keep a link between father and also mothers and their children, are

:03:21.:03:23.

protected whilst those individuals are in prison. Finally, we also need

:03:24.:03:29.

to maintain a prison environment that is safe and secure. Britain's

:03:30.:03:34.

need to feel safe or staff in prisons. As well as tackling violent

:03:35.:03:39.

incidents and creating the right culture and atmosphere, we need to

:03:40.:03:42.

provide support to probable prisoners and make sure we have

:03:43.:03:48.

sufficient levels of staffing to provide that safety and security.

:03:49.:03:53.

The bill makes clear how I, as Secretary of State, will account to

:03:54.:03:57.

Parliament for progress in reforming offenders that this is the first

:03:58.:04:02.

time. This is the first time that in legislation it will be clear that

:04:03.:04:07.

the Secretary of State is responsible for reforming offenders

:04:08.:04:11.

and the Secretary of State me, will have to report to Parliament about

:04:12.:04:14.

what I do. That is a very important change we will see happening in the

:04:15.:04:18.

culture of our prisons. For the first time there will be

:04:19.:04:22.

accountability at Cabinet level for not just whether or not prisons will

:04:23.:04:26.

be safe, which is important, not just whether or not we are providing

:04:27.:04:32.

enough prison places but whether, whilst those individuals are under

:04:33.:04:36.

the care of the state, whether their lives are being turned around

:04:37.:04:39.

whether they are being reformed and whether they leave prison with

:04:40.:04:52.

better prospects are more likely to lead a

:04:53.:04:53.

law-abiding life? I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I have

:04:54.:04:56.

been listening very closely to this of the debate which has been

:04:57.:05:00.

extremely consensual. There is a great deal of common hope invested

:05:01.:05:07.

in the institution in Wrexham. We are hugely impressed with the staff

:05:08.:05:11.

are picking up on the point she is making, will she report back on a

:05:12.:05:16.

regular basis of the progress of that particular prison? Many of the

:05:17.:05:21.

aspects of the philosophy we are talking about, I think it has been

:05:22.:05:26.

carried forward in practical terms, and it would be extremely important

:05:27.:05:33.

to measure that as time passes. We are looking at the progress made and

:05:34.:05:42.

learning the lessons across our prison estate. The Lord Chancellor

:05:43.:05:51.

is very generous in giving way to me twice that she will be aware that

:05:52.:05:54.

people with autism are disproportionately represented in

:05:55.:06:02.

the criminal justice system. In Feltham, it was the first prison to

:06:03.:06:06.

have accreditation at being autism friendly for that they've found that

:06:07.:06:11.

reduced violence and help people with mental health problems. Many

:06:12.:06:14.

people are going through the accreditation process. Will she give

:06:15.:06:19.

consideration to make sure that all establishments go through this

:06:20.:06:21.

accreditation process because I believe it will deliver a safe

:06:22.:06:26.

environment in prisons for our officers and those that are

:06:27.:06:29.

incarcerated? I thank my honourable friend. I will look at that. I know

:06:30.:06:33.

she has a long accordance standing up for people with autism are making

:06:34.:06:40.

sure they have proper support. I just want to finish the point. We

:06:41.:06:43.

have to move on to the court section of the bill. She is very kind. In

:06:44.:06:54.

the Bill, it says the report has set out the extent to which prisoners

:06:55.:06:58.

are meeting the purpose mentioned in section a one. What happens if the

:06:59.:07:04.

prisons generally do not meet those purposes? What will the Secretary of

:07:05.:07:10.

State do about it? What can she do about it? What will happen if she

:07:11.:07:16.

does nothing about it? My honourable friend, who served as shadow prisons

:07:17.:07:22.

minister, has a very important point to make here. What the bill does, as

:07:23.:07:28.

well as creating a framework for the minister, we are also setting up the

:07:29.:07:33.

new Executive agency, Her Majesty 's prison and probation service from

:07:34.:07:38.

the 1st of April which will focus on the operational management of

:07:39.:07:42.

prisons and probation. We will have new standards so performance

:07:43.:07:46.

measures will appear in performance tables, so the public will feature

:07:47.:07:50.

chance apparently and accountability what is going on in prisons. At the

:07:51.:07:55.

moment we do not know what the employment rate out of a particular

:07:56.:07:59.

prisoners, or how good a prison is at improving English and maths for

:08:00.:08:08.

people the prison or how effective they are at getting people off

:08:09.:08:10.

drugs. Those measures will be published. That will bring much

:08:11.:08:12.

greater scrutiny and accountability for the public. In addition to that,

:08:13.:08:18.

what I'm doing a the powers of the prison inspectorate. But the

:08:19.:08:22.

inspectorate will be able to do, and the Chief inspector in particular it

:08:23.:08:29.

will trigger an urgent response from the Secretary of State in the most

:08:30.:08:34.

serious of cases. If a prisoner is failing to meet those standards, it

:08:35.:08:38.

will mean the Secretary of State must respond within a specific

:08:39.:08:41.

timetable and will have to take action in terms of an action plan to

:08:42.:08:47.

improve that specific prison. At the moment that is not in place. I will

:08:48.:08:54.

give way. I assume this is intended to be visible. If the Secretary of

:08:55.:09:01.

State did not respond within the times suggested, the Government

:09:02.:09:07.

would be appearing in court. They will be given specific powers to

:09:08.:09:10.

make sure it happens will do what the bill also do as it will place

:09:11.:09:14.

the prisons and probation ombudsman on a statutory footing the giving

:09:15.:09:18.

him greater authority and statutory powers in investigating deaths in

:09:19.:09:23.

custody. The bill also supports our efforts to stop drug use and crime

:09:24.:09:28.

enabled by a legal mobile phones. It enables phone network operators to

:09:29.:09:31.

disrupt unlawful use of mobile phones in custody. I will give way

:09:32.:09:33.

to the honourable lady. I just wanted to ask if she could

:09:34.:09:43.

answer very quickly in the case of the prison escape who is

:09:44.:09:47.

accountable? The Governor is accountable for what happens in

:09:48.:09:51.

their prison but ultimately there is a line management structure, through

:09:52.:09:56.

to the head of the prison service and ultimately to the Secretary of

:09:57.:09:59.

State. I'm moving on to the other measures

:10:00.:10:05.

in the Bill. The Bill also supports swifter responses to the effects of

:10:06.:10:12.

psycho reactive substances. What they do with fuel debt and violence

:10:13.:10:16.

and they can have a very severe impact on prisoners help. We rolled

:10:17.:10:21.

out new tests for psychoactive substances last year and we were the

:10:22.:10:25.

first jurisdiction in the world to do that. The Bill also strengthens

:10:26.:10:29.

our ability to keep up with the speed at which the substances

:10:30.:10:35.

evolve. It allows for quick testing for newly identified psychoactive

:10:36.:10:44.

substances based on guidelines in the guidelines. Madam Deputy

:10:45.:10:48.

Speaker, we face challenges in our prisons that will not be solved in

:10:49.:10:53.

weeks or months, but am absolutely determined to turn the situation

:10:54.:10:56.

around. We now have the resources to do that, we are investing an

:10:57.:11:00.

additional ?100 million a year and we have a clear plan to do that.

:11:01.:11:05.

What the measures in this Bill do is provide a structure under which that

:11:06.:11:11.

accountability and scrutiny can take place, so that we can see how our

:11:12.:11:18.

prisons are improving over time. Madam Deputy Speaker, this Bill

:11:19.:11:22.

introduces major reforms to the courts and justice system, which I

:11:23.:11:26.

announced in my joint memorandum with the Lord Chief Justice and

:11:27.:11:29.

senior President of the tribunal 's in September. It will introduce more

:11:30.:11:34.

virtual and online hearings, put in place greater protection for

:11:35.:11:39.

witnesses and victims and provide greater support for excellent judges

:11:40.:11:42.

and magistrates. I want to take a moment to page tribute to the Lord

:11:43.:11:47.

Chief Justice, a great reformer who has spearheaded these reforms and

:11:48.:11:51.

who will retire later this year. I also want to thank the senior

:11:52.:11:56.

President of tribunal rules. Their vision for a caught and tribunal

:11:57.:12:00.

system that is just, proportionate and accessible lies at the very

:12:01.:12:04.

heart of the reforms set out in this Bill. These reforms are a tribute to

:12:05.:12:08.

their tireless work alongside other senior members of the judiciary. I

:12:09.:12:12.

will give way. I'll be half of the Justice select

:12:13.:12:22.

committee associate ourselves with her comments about the Lord Chief

:12:23.:12:24.

Justice. Would she reflect as to whether or not it is passing through

:12:25.:12:28.

the House, this Bill may not give an opportunity to revisit the retiring

:12:29.:12:34.

age of the senior judiciary at 70, which runs against the behaviour of

:12:35.:12:38.

much of the rest of society and our economy. It might be an opportunity

:12:39.:12:43.

to consider. I thank the chairman of the select

:12:44.:12:47.

committee for introducing this hotly debated issue into this discussion

:12:48.:12:54.

about the Bill, which is not, this measure is not part of the Bill. I

:12:55.:12:59.

have had discussions on this issue with the senior judiciary. I don't

:13:00.:13:03.

think there is currently a consensus on that issue, but it's certainly

:13:04.:13:07.

something that I think we should consider in due course, but as I

:13:08.:13:12.

said, at the moment, there is not a consensus on that issue.

:13:13.:13:18.

Yesterday we announced we are bringing forward the roll-out of

:13:19.:13:24.

reforms, allowing rape victims to prerecord their cross-examination,

:13:25.:13:26.

sparing them from the trauma of giving evidence during the trial.

:13:27.:13:31.

This follows successful pilots of these measures for child victims of

:13:32.:13:34.

all crimes. This will not produce the right to a fair trial. During

:13:35.:13:40.

the pilots for vulnerable victims there was no significant change in

:13:41.:13:43.

the conviction rate but what we did see was more early guilty pleas and

:13:44.:13:47.

fewer cracked trials, which means less stress and trauma for all of

:13:48.:13:55.

those participating in the case. I want to praise the determined

:13:56.:13:57.

leadership of the president of the Queen 's bench division and the

:13:58.:14:04.

senior presiding judge. They have been vital to developing the plans

:14:05.:14:08.

for rolling out these provisions for child victims and victims of sexual

:14:09.:14:13.

offences in all Crown Courts. Given in some of our crown courts we have

:14:14.:14:19.

almost 50% of cases are sexual cases, I think this is a very

:14:20.:14:25.

important reform that will help and support people who have to go

:14:26.:14:28.

through this terrible experience and really make improvements in this

:14:29.:14:31.

situation. I will give way. Thank you. This is a very welcome

:14:32.:14:37.

announcement but it will mean more cases will have to be included in

:14:38.:14:43.

the roll-out of section 28 due to be completed by December 20 17. The

:14:44.:14:50.

sexual assault referral centre in Manchester has video link to the

:14:51.:15:01.

court. With the Secretary of State considers the facilitation of this

:15:02.:15:10.

venue? I thank the honourable lady. I am in

:15:11.:15:16.

principle in favour of using alternative venues apart from

:15:17.:15:20.

courts, which can often be conducive to people giving their best possible

:15:21.:15:25.

evidence in a less intimidating environment. It's something I will

:15:26.:15:27.

have to discuss with the senior judiciary. We're working very

:15:28.:15:31.

closely with them on this issue. I am certainly in favour of using

:15:32.:15:35.

places like sexual assault referral centres to make sure we give the

:15:36.:15:39.

best possible support to victims and witnesses in a very difficult time

:15:40.:15:43.

they have to go through. The measures set out in this Bill

:15:44.:15:47.

will further enhance our ability to protect vulnerable witnesses and

:15:48.:15:50.

modernise the courts and tribunal system. Our changes to the system

:15:51.:15:54.

should reflect, should be reflected in better legal support that is

:15:55.:16:00.

focused on early help and representation. That is why we are

:16:01.:16:04.

bringing forward a legal support green paper in early 2018, setting

:16:05.:16:08.

up proposals to update the system of legal support in a modern court

:16:09.:16:16.

system. Less time navigating the system and more legal time spent on

:16:17.:16:21.

giving people legal advice and legal representation. Parts two and three

:16:22.:16:24.

of the Bill will take forward measures relating to procedures in

:16:25.:16:29.

civil, family and criminal matters and the organisation and functions

:16:30.:16:33.

of courts and tribunals. I will talk through each in turn. I will give

:16:34.:16:38.

way. I am most grateful to her for giving

:16:39.:16:42.

way. One of the areas that causes me concern, in terms of representation

:16:43.:16:47.

in court, is matrimonial proceedings, which I think are some

:16:48.:16:53.

of the most difficult, emotional and contentious areas in our courts and

:16:54.:16:58.

where there is very little legal representation that is publicly

:16:59.:17:03.

funded. Is the Lord Chancellor content with the current situation,

:17:04.:17:07.

and which areas to she think needs most attention?

:17:08.:17:14.

If the honourable gentleman is asking me am I content with the

:17:15.:17:18.

current situation, know I am not content. We do need to reform the

:17:19.:17:23.

family justice system. We need to help people get earlier resolution

:17:24.:17:30.

of their, the issues that they have. We need to get better, I think, at

:17:31.:17:37.

helping families, and I'm a big fan of the family Court and the work

:17:38.:17:41.

they do in supporting families. That's why my honourable friend and

:17:42.:17:47.

I will be bringing forward a green paper on family justice, which looks

:17:48.:17:51.

at the system in a holistic way and looks at how we can do things

:17:52.:17:56.

better. Within the family justice system. But I think there are

:17:57.:18:00.

certainly areas of improvement. I do think it's an important step that we

:18:01.:18:06.

are banning the ability of alleged abusers to be able to cross examine

:18:07.:18:10.

their victims in court. This was done in the crown courts in the

:18:11.:18:14.

1990s and we are only now catching up with that in the family courts. I

:18:15.:18:19.

think it is very important that we give family courts the priority in

:18:20.:18:22.

the system that they deserve, because it's very important that we

:18:23.:18:27.

deal with these difficult issues in peoples lives in a sensitive way as

:18:28.:18:30.

possible. This Bill will also make sure that

:18:31.:18:34.

victims and witnesses in the criminal courts receive the support

:18:35.:18:38.

they deserve. It will extend the use of video links and virtual hearings,

:18:39.:18:42.

which have multiple benefits. First of all it will allow victims to be

:18:43.:18:46.

eligible to be taking part in cases without having to meet their

:18:47.:18:50.

religion attacker face-to-face. In future, around 180,000 victims and

:18:51.:18:56.

witnesses a year will have the opportunity to give evidence remote

:18:57.:18:59.

suites, from a convenient location or in advance of the hearing. It

:19:00.:19:05.

will enable more bail hearings to take place through video link and

:19:06.:19:07.

away from the court room, saving time and money. It will increase the

:19:08.:19:10.

efficiency and effectiveness of the overall process, by allowing a

:19:11.:19:14.

number of decisions to be made outside the traditional court room

:19:15.:19:17.

and will save people time in travelling to court, saving around

:19:18.:19:22.

112,000 journeys from prisons to court each year.

:19:23.:19:26.

I will give way. I am most grateful. Again, I support the thrust and

:19:27.:19:32.

intention behind this. In the case of victims, of course, normally

:19:33.:19:36.

victims are the first witness for the prosecution. But where you are

:19:37.:19:41.

dealing with witnesses, is there not a risk, and how are we going to

:19:42.:19:46.

factor in the possibility that the question you may wish to ask the

:19:47.:19:49.

witness is changed by the evidence that precedes the witness giving

:19:50.:19:53.

that evidence? And we're going to have to have a system in place to

:19:54.:19:58.

deal with that if a fair trial processes to be maintained.

:19:59.:20:01.

My honourable friend makes a very important point, that a fair trial

:20:02.:20:06.

is at the heart of our justice system. What we are establishing

:20:07.:20:11.

is... We've already got rules committees, we're establishing a new

:20:12.:20:16.

online rules committee as well, which will be managed by the

:20:17.:20:19.

judiciary. They will look at these issues in detail, to make sure that

:20:20.:20:24.

a fair trial is always paramount in these cases.

:20:25.:20:28.

The Bill will also enable screens to be installed in court and Wales to

:20:29.:20:33.

allow the public to observe virtual hearings from court buildings

:20:34.:20:37.

anywhere in the country. List of all open cases will be published online

:20:38.:20:41.

and results will be made available digitally. This will ensure that

:20:42.:20:45.

justice is done and also that it is seen to be done. The Bill will

:20:46.:20:49.

streamline the pre-trial process and make changes to the way cases are

:20:50.:20:54.

allocated in the crown and Magistrates' Court. Defendants will

:20:55.:20:58.

be able to indicate a plea online in all cases, allowing the courts to

:20:59.:21:01.

make administrative decisions without the need for a hearing. We

:21:02.:21:07.

are also stripping out almost 30,000 unnecessary first hearings for the

:21:08.:21:11.

most serious offences in the Magistrates' Court each year. The

:21:12.:21:17.

Bill will abolish local justice areas, simplifying the structure our

:21:18.:21:21.

Magistrates' Court and removing the bureaucracy and geographical

:21:22.:21:23.

constraints that cause inefficiencies and delays. It will

:21:24.:21:29.

allow those charged with some of the most straightforward

:21:30.:21:33.

non-imprisonable offences to resolve their cases entirely online. I could

:21:34.:21:36.

give the House is an example. A commuter charged with failure to

:21:37.:21:40.

produce a ticket can log onto a website, have all the options

:21:41.:21:43.

clearly explained to them and accept a conviction and pay a set penalty

:21:44.:21:47.

instantly online, without waiting for a magistrates to process their

:21:48.:21:51.

case. My honourable friend will be aware

:21:52.:21:57.

that a number of Magistrates' Courts were closed in preceding years,

:21:58.:22:02.

including the court in Bedford by the justices themselves, despite the

:22:03.:22:05.

best efforts of my honourable friend, the member for Cambridge in

:22:06.:22:12.

north-west. Will these measures help allay my constituents concerns about

:22:13.:22:15.

additional travel for some of those offences they have cause question

:22:16.:22:18.

what will this give them some comfort that their concerns will be

:22:19.:22:26.

allayed? I represent a rural constituency and

:22:27.:22:29.

understand people's concerns about having to travel far. What these

:22:30.:22:34.

hearings will enable people to do is to be able to do more online, so

:22:35.:22:38.

they don't need to travel to court. To be able to use virtual videos.

:22:39.:22:44.

What we've seen is that is reducing travel needs right across the

:22:45.:22:48.

country. Also, if they want to observe a case in another part of

:22:49.:22:52.

the country, they will be able to go into their court with special

:22:53.:22:55.

permission to be able to observe that case, so it should give more

:22:56.:23:00.

access for victims and witnesses to the justice process. I will give

:23:01.:23:06.

way. All these plans for online

:23:07.:23:14.

communication are wonderful. If only you have the ability to get quality

:23:15.:23:21.

broadband. So in parts of my constituency, broadband as low as

:23:22.:23:28.

25% of capability, how on earth are people going to be able to access

:23:29.:23:32.

justice when they cannot possibly do anything online because of appalling

:23:33.:23:35.

broadband? We are doing a lot to improve

:23:36.:23:40.

broadband across the country. The online system is not mandatory. The

:23:41.:23:44.

paper process will be available. But I've been looking recently at

:23:45.:23:48.

virtual hearings taking place across the country and in some areas of the

:23:49.:23:52.

country, like the south-west of England, there is very high take-up

:23:53.:23:56.

of these hearings, because it does help people in rural areas who do

:23:57.:24:01.

have long distances to travel to get caught, to be able to use

:24:02.:24:05.

broadband... The West Country is leading the way at the moment. What

:24:06.:24:11.

we're looking at is how we can encourage courts across the country

:24:12.:24:14.

to do the same thing. I'm very pleased to say that civil justice is

:24:15.:24:18.

at the forefront of our reforms. I was proud to announce a new business

:24:19.:24:22.

and property court last week, with the Lord Chief Justice and the

:24:23.:24:25.

chance of the High Court. These courts are the vanguard of our

:24:26.:24:29.

world-class justice system and making sure that global Britain

:24:30.:24:34.

leads the world in law. They were based in London, Leeds, Bristol,

:24:35.:24:38.

Manchester and Cardiff. And I think they represent the fact that our

:24:39.:24:44.

courts and our commercial courts don't just serve the City of London,

:24:45.:24:48.

which is of course important, but significant regional centres across

:24:49.:24:52.

the country. This Bill introduces a new online court which will enable

:24:53.:24:54.

more people... I promise this is an uncontroversial

:24:55.:25:07.

intervention this time. Does she agree one of the strengths of our

:25:08.:25:12.

commercial courts, as well as the integrity of the Judiciary Committee

:25:13.:25:16.

as the Blatty to enforce judgments worldwide, and that includes within

:25:17.:25:19.

the European Union? Does she accepted his most important in the

:25:20.:25:23.

Brexit negotiations that the ability to force judgments remains a top

:25:24.:25:32.

priority? My honourable friend is correct about that point. As well as

:25:33.:25:37.

making sure that these commercial courts are right across regions of

:25:38.:25:42.

our country, we need to make sure we have mutual enforcement of

:25:43.:25:46.

judgments. We have a commitment to do that as the Government. It is

:25:47.:25:51.

something I have agreed with the Secretary of State for exiting the

:25:52.:25:55.

EU. That is a priority for this government's negotiations. The bill

:25:56.:26:00.

introduces a new online court to enable people to resolve civil

:26:01.:26:04.

claims of up to 25,000 simply and easily online. These online services

:26:05.:26:09.

will increase access to justice. The bill will reform procedures so

:26:10.:26:17.

people can make witness statements rather than statutory declarations

:26:18.:26:19.

in relation to certain traffic and air quality offences in the Crown

:26:20.:26:22.

Court. It means people will not have to go into court to go through the

:26:23.:26:27.

process. It will streamline the attachment of earnings orders,

:26:28.:26:31.

giving the council the same powers as the High Court. We also want our

:26:32.:26:39.

excellent judiciary and magistrates to be better supported on a wet they

:26:40.:26:43.

do. This bill will allow judges and all of our courts in tribunal is to

:26:44.:26:48.

make greater and more effective use of authorised court staff, to assist

:26:49.:26:53.

them with tasks such as dealing with routine applications or ensuring

:26:54.:26:57.

compliance with court directions this will allow our judicially to

:26:58.:26:59.

prioritise their time and expertise on the matter is whether you need it

:27:00.:27:05.

most. The bill will bring the legislative framework for the

:27:06.:27:07.

compliment tribunal system in close alignment with that of the wider

:27:08.:27:11.

tribunal system. It will confirm responsibility for making this usual

:27:12.:27:17.

rules to the Tribunal procedure committee. Employment judges will be

:27:18.:27:21.

able to delegate routine tasks to approach the trade or qualified

:27:22.:27:25.

staff. Overall, these reforms will benefit tribunal users whose cases

:27:26.:27:30.

will be resolved more quickly and proportionately. Madam Deputy

:27:31.:27:34.

Speaker, we have the most highly regarded judiciary in the world.

:27:35.:27:39.

They are a beacon of independence, expertise, commitment to the rule of

:27:40.:27:43.

law. The Lord Chief Justice and I are working closely together to make

:27:44.:27:47.

role for judges and magistrates in a role for judges and magistrates in a

:27:48.:27:52.

transformed and modern justice system. We are putting into place

:27:53.:27:56.

reforms that recognise magistrates as an integral part of the judicial

:27:57.:28:01.

family. The judicial is an important part of our Constitution and its

:28:02.:28:05.

continued independence is vital for the rule of law. We must continue to

:28:06.:28:10.

uphold very high standards and to select its members purely on merit.

:28:11.:28:16.

That means ensuring that people want to apply, that they feel valued, and

:28:17.:28:21.

they have good working conditions. I value the work the judiciary does

:28:22.:28:25.

from the magistrates and tribunals to the High Court and Supreme Court.

:28:26.:28:29.

As Lord Chancellor I am determined to support them in all they do. Part

:28:30.:28:34.

four the bill takes forward measures to ensure our judiciary has the

:28:35.:28:38.

support and opportunities they need for a fulfilling and successful

:28:39.:28:44.

career. This bill will strengthen leadership structures in the

:28:45.:28:51.

judiciary, providing clear career progression for the judges and

:28:52.:28:58.

ensuring we have the widest possible range of talent coming into the

:28:59.:29:00.

judiciary will make it easier to be more flexible, allowing judges to

:29:01.:29:02.

gain experience with different types of cases and helping with career

:29:03.:29:07.

progression. This bill will enable the judicial appointments commission

:29:08.:29:10.

to assist with this selection exercises in other parts of the

:29:11.:29:15.

world, sharing leading expertise within the commission. Part five of

:29:16.:29:20.

the bill tackles the rampant compensation culture that has

:29:21.:29:26.

developed around whiplash claims. Just before she moves on, she said

:29:27.:29:30.

quite rightly how much she values magistrates and the work they do.

:29:31.:29:34.

When can we expect the Government to allow magistrates to send people to

:29:35.:29:39.

prison for 12 months for an offence rather than six months? That is

:29:40.:29:42.

something this government has been promising to do for quite some time.

:29:43.:29:47.

I thank my honourable friend for his dog with support of magistrates will

:29:48.:29:50.

appears right about the fantastic work they do. -- his dog-eared

:29:51.:29:56.

support. I am happy to discuss this with him further. Part five of the

:29:57.:30:01.

bill tackles a rampant compensation culture that has developed around

:30:02.:30:08.

whiplash claims. The numbers of road traffic accident claims are 50%

:30:09.:30:11.

higher than they were ten years ago it was that despite the fact there

:30:12.:30:15.

are fewer accidents and safer cars on our roads. The bill will enable

:30:16.:30:21.

us to introduce a transparent tariff system of fixed proportionate

:30:22.:30:24.

compensation for whiplash claims with an injury duration of up to two

:30:25.:30:29.

years. It will make sure all claims will be supported by good quality,

:30:30.:30:33.

medical evidence, provided by accredited experts. I will give way

:30:34.:30:37.

to the honourable gentleman. I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor.

:30:38.:30:45.

Shouldn't she use this bill to put into place a fairer, more balanced

:30:46.:30:47.

framework, for calculating personal injury compensation lump sum

:30:48.:30:51.

insurance payments following the seismic decision she made on the

:30:52.:30:55.

discount rate a few weeks ago? It will not just potentially raise our

:30:56.:31:01.

constituents insurance premiums vary significantly but for the tax payer,

:31:02.:31:05.

NHS litigation, the Treasury are saying it could add 2 billion as

:31:06.:31:09.

next year and ?1 billion thereafter. Surely there is a better balance

:31:10.:31:14.

this bill could introduce? I thank the honourable gentleman for his

:31:15.:31:18.

point. I can assure him he will not have to wait long. I agree with him

:31:19.:31:24.

that the system needs reform. I'll be bringing forward a consultation

:31:25.:31:28.

before the Easter recess. I look forward to hearing from him in the

:31:29.:31:35.

consultation. I'm grateful for her generosity. Can she tell the Has

:31:36.:31:40.

whether compensation tariff figures for whiplash came from question up

:31:41.:31:45.

what evidence was there for the governor to put these figures in the

:31:46.:31:48.

consultation document? I think the honourable gentleman will have

:31:49.:31:52.

noticed we have changed the figures in response to the consultation

:31:53.:31:56.

document. They were adjudged to have been fair and reasonable for the

:31:57.:31:59.

level of injury we are talking about in this case. Will you give way? Can

:32:00.:32:12.

I ask the Lord Chancellor if she were considered just very slightly

:32:13.:32:17.

widening the definition of whiplash injuries in clause 61 to include

:32:18.:32:22.

injuries to the lower back, as well as the upper back? I thank my

:32:23.:32:27.

honourable friend for that point. That was an issue covered in the

:32:28.:32:31.

consultation. We have brought it back, listening to what people fed

:32:32.:32:36.

through in the consultation. This bill will enter the unfairness of

:32:37.:32:41.

higher premiums for motorists while ensuring fair compensation remains

:32:42.:32:44.

available for genuinely injured claimants. Madam Deputy Speaker...

:32:45.:32:49.

The prison and courts bill will usher in a new modern hero for our

:32:50.:32:56.

prisons, courts and justice system. -- modern era. It will make sure

:32:57.:33:01.

that our prisons are places of reform, so that offenders have the

:33:02.:33:08.

skills they need to return to society, secure employment and turn

:33:09.:33:13.

their back on crime. It will create a courts and tribunal system to

:33:14.:33:17.

protect the most vulnerable and is more straightforward and accessible

:33:18.:33:21.

for all. It will enable the Judiciary Committee the demands of

:33:22.:33:25.

the modern justice system and in harms our reputation for legal

:33:26.:33:27.

excellence around the world. I commend it to the house. The

:33:28.:33:33.

question is that the bill now be read a second time. Richard Bergen.

:33:34.:33:40.

Rank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to start off by echoing the

:33:41.:33:45.

Justice Secretary's and is about the young prison officer, who was

:33:46.:33:51.

attacked in Oak Hill last week. Want to take this opportunity to pay

:33:52.:33:55.

tribute to all our prison officers doing such a good job in such

:33:56.:34:00.

difficult circumstances. Madam Deputy Speaker, I also want to start

:34:01.:34:05.

my contribution by thanking the Secretary of State, who telephoned

:34:06.:34:09.

me the evening before the publication of the bill to discuss

:34:10.:34:13.

its contents with me, and I also want to thank the courts and

:34:14.:34:17.

tribunal 's minister in the same way for meeting with me last week to

:34:18.:34:23.

discuss the bill in further detail. I have only been in this place for a

:34:24.:34:27.

limited amount of time and it is a custom more often honoured in the

:34:28.:34:33.

breach and observance. I was pleased they contact me on this very

:34:34.:34:37.

courteous and informative way. I will also thank the House of Commons

:34:38.:34:40.

library for its borough and clear briefing, which has assisted myself

:34:41.:34:44.

and staff, and doubtless other members and their staff as well. On

:34:45.:34:49.

to the current landscape, Madam Deputy Speaker. Today we are

:34:50.:34:53.

discussing a bill to amend procedures in our prisons and in our

:34:54.:35:00.

courts. This bill was back in the days when the former member for

:35:01.:35:05.

Witney was Prime Minister. The right honourable member for Surrey Hughes

:35:06.:35:09.

was just a secretary and the right honourable member for Tatton could

:35:10.:35:14.

not find time to edit a daily newspaper. Much has changed since

:35:15.:35:18.

then we have waited a long time for this bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, we

:35:19.:35:23.

are not opposed to this bill. Indeed be welcome and support much of the

:35:24.:35:30.

contents of the bill. However, where we disagree, or believe the

:35:31.:35:34.

Government should go further, then we will pursue amendments in

:35:35.:35:38.

committee. This bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, comes at a time of jewel

:35:39.:35:44.

crises. A dangerous and declining prisoner state and thousands of

:35:45.:35:48.

people who have been priced out of access to justice. Let me set out

:35:49.:35:52.

the reasons for these crises and what the bill must offer to make a

:35:53.:35:58.

real difference. In relation to prisons, it has been the Secretary

:35:59.:36:02.

of State's 's fortune to inherit a brief, dominated from day one, by

:36:03.:36:09.

the crisis in our prisons. It is not a crisis of the current Secretary of

:36:10.:36:14.

State's making that is one created by the Conservative government cuts

:36:15.:36:19.

agenda. The statistics often cited in this place but they are worth

:36:20.:36:25.

repeating. Overcrowding in 68% of our prisons, approximately 77,000

:36:26.:36:30.

prison places, but more than 84,000 people in our prisons. In the 12

:36:31.:36:36.

months to September 2016, over 25,000 prisoner assault incidents

:36:37.:36:42.

within prisons. The 31% increase on the figure to September 2000 and 15.

:36:43.:36:49.

Madam Deputy Speaker, assaults on prison staff reached 6430. An

:36:50.:36:57.

increase of 82% since 2006 and a 40% increase from the year before. There

:36:58.:37:02.

were more than 37,750 incidents of self harm. This was an increase of

:37:03.:37:11.

61% can compare to September 2006, and a national increase of 23% on

:37:12.:37:17.

the previous year. And, in the 12 months to December 2016, there were

:37:18.:37:24.

354 deaths of prisoners in custody, that of which were self inflicted.

:37:25.:37:31.

It was that government decision to cut 7000 front-line prison officers,

:37:32.:37:36.

which has doubtlessly contributed in large part to the crisis. And that,

:37:37.:37:45.

allied to the disastrous decision to prioritise our probation service, so

:37:46.:37:50.

that effective rehabilitation of offenders has become all but extinct

:37:51.:37:53.

on successive Conservative governments. I am very grateful. I

:37:54.:37:59.

want to support our prison officers and help to protect them. One moment

:38:00.:38:04.

I intend to table later on, during the passage of the bill, is that

:38:05.:38:11.

anybody who is a prisoner, who assaults the prison officer, should

:38:12.:38:15.

no longer be automatically released halfway through their prison

:38:16.:38:19.

sentence. I think that would have a big impact on the prison officers

:38:20.:38:24.

Association. I'm sure they would welcome that may deter some violence

:38:25.:38:28.

we see in the prisons. If I were to table such an amendment but with the

:38:29.:38:33.

honourable member show his support? Thank you for the intervention. We

:38:34.:38:37.

will be in the bill committee looking at ways with my honourable

:38:38.:38:47.

friend, the member for Halifax, and others, and ensuring that we put the

:38:48.:38:51.

safety of our prison officers first and I would argue on par with that

:38:52.:38:56.

of police officers. So, these are all challengers. They are challenges

:38:57.:39:01.

of overcrowding, violence, and failing to reform. All challenges

:39:02.:39:05.

that this bill must confront and surmount. In relation to courts and

:39:06.:39:10.

tribunal is, the bill sets out proposals to modernise the way our

:39:11.:39:14.

courts operate. This, of course, is welcome. I can testify from my own

:39:15.:39:22.

decade as an employment tribunal lawyer, when in bleak house, Dickens

:39:23.:39:25.

complained about the turgid pays, with which courts dealt with cases,

:39:26.:39:30.

he could have been speaking for our age as well as his own. Technology

:39:31.:39:34.

has begun to appear in court rooms in which it was previously,

:39:35.:39:40.

glaringly absent. It is vital, Madam Deputy Speaker, that these

:39:41.:39:43.

innovations do not come at the expense of access to justice. In

:39:44.:39:48.

recent years, when the Conservatives have released documents with the

:39:49.:39:52.

word transforming in the title, it usually has meant shorthand for

:39:53.:39:57.

cutting, diminishing, and failing. Think about transforming legal aid.

:39:58.:40:06.

Think about transforming rehabilitation. Therefore,

:40:07.:40:07.

transforming our justice system, one of the papers which has so

:40:08.:40:11.

influenced this bill, must not result in the same. It was the Lord

:40:12.:40:16.

Chief Justice, Lord Thomas, who said last year, this was his words, our

:40:17.:40:21.

system of justice has become unaffordable to most. So, I am glad

:40:22.:40:26.

that the Secretary of State praised Lord Thomas in her speech full he

:40:27.:40:29.

was certainly correct when he said our system of justice has become

:40:30.:40:33.

unaffordable to most. I would welcome it if the Secretary of State

:40:34.:40:37.

with baby on praising Lord Thomas to agreeing with his analysis of his

:40:38.:40:43.

barriers to access the justice. Lord Thomas said what the honourable

:40:44.:40:50.

gentleman says he said but he will be aware that Lord Thomas is also

:40:51.:40:56.

supportive of all the measures that are proposed in the Bill, in terms

:40:57.:41:00.

of reforms of the courts, particularly in terms of the

:41:01.:41:04.

technology we use to allow access to courts which so many people are

:41:05.:41:07.

saying was going to be denied. He is supportive of all the measures.

:41:08.:41:13.

Thank you for that intervention. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I made

:41:14.:41:17.

clear at the outset of my speech, we are not opposing this Bill at second

:41:18.:41:20.

reading. We welcome a number of the measures in the but think the

:41:21.:41:25.

Government should go further. I hope that The right honourable member

:41:26.:41:29.

will agree with me that reform shouldn't come at the expense of

:41:30.:41:34.

access to justice and if Lord Thomas, we all hold in high esteem,

:41:35.:41:37.

is saying our system of justice has become unaffordable to most, that is

:41:38.:41:42.

something we must in this house on both sides take very seriously.

:41:43.:41:46.

Nothing more poignantly demonstrates what Lord Thomas said about the

:41:47.:41:52.

access to justice than the 70% in reduction of employment tribunal

:41:53.:41:57.

cases following the coalition's introduction of tribunal fees. This

:41:58.:42:06.

committee must provide answers to these problems. Technology alone is

:42:07.:42:10.

not a panacea nor must it be utilised to mask further cuts to

:42:11.:42:16.

public funding. On the subject of whiplash, Madam Deputy Speaker, a

:42:17.:42:21.

key feature of this Bill and which has seen much coverage in recent

:42:22.:42:25.

weeks, is the proposed reform to whiplash claims. Many were pleased

:42:26.:42:30.

that when the Bill appeared it did not include raising the small claims

:42:31.:42:35.

limit for all personal injuries. So the Government can be congratulated

:42:36.:42:40.

for listening on listening a little, but we should be clear that these

:42:41.:42:44.

reforms to whiplash are based on the false premise. We've heard the

:42:45.:42:50.

Secretary of State say today there is a rampant culture, a rampant

:42:51.:42:56.

compensation culture. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is no epidemic of

:42:57.:43:00.

fraudulent claims. The British people are not on the fiddle or on

:43:01.:43:04.

the make in a way that the Government so disparagingly

:43:05.:43:09.

suggests. In relation to prisons, Madam Deputy Speaker... I will do.

:43:10.:43:16.

I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way and the

:43:17.:43:19.

tone of what he is saying is in agreement with much of what's being

:43:20.:43:23.

said and that is welcome. I will say when it comes to whiplash claims,

:43:24.:43:26.

how does he explain the fact that the number of accidents is going

:43:27.:43:31.

down enormously, yet the number of whiplash claims is going up

:43:32.:43:37.

nevertheless, by 50%? Could it have something to do with fraud?

:43:38.:43:43.

Thank you for the intervention. The number of whiplash claims in recent

:43:44.:43:46.

years has reduced. What I would also say this is in recent years and has

:43:47.:43:52.

stud. There is also a duty, a duty upon insurers to defend claims are

:43:53.:43:59.

not pay out if claims are fraudulent. Part one of this Bill...

:44:00.:44:03.

I will do. I'm grateful to my honourable friend

:44:04.:44:07.

for giving way. Could he help me... The Government have made a claim to

:44:08.:44:12.

whiplash proposals will reduce insurance premiums for drivers by

:44:13.:44:17.

around ?40. Has he become aware of any evidence to back up this claim,

:44:18.:44:20.

and if so could he help share it with the committee on the House

:44:21.:44:24.

because we'd be very interested in examining it?

:44:25.:44:29.

Thank you for that intervention. Unfortunately the Government has

:44:30.:44:32.

provided no cast-iron assurances that this saving will be passed on

:44:33.:44:42.

to drivers if it exists at all. I am grateful with my honourable friend.

:44:43.:44:47.

Would he agree it's wrong to penalised people with valid personal

:44:48.:44:51.

injury claims because of possible rises being driven by cowboy claims

:44:52.:44:55.

companies that are cold calling people with suggestions they should

:44:56.:44:59.

make claims no basis in basis in reality in this Bill does nothing to

:45:00.:45:02.

address? I agree with the point my honourable

:45:03.:45:07.

friend makes. They can't be injured people who should be made to pay the

:45:08.:45:15.

price for the behaviour, the minority of unscrupulous companies

:45:16.:45:17.

engaging in the practices she describes. On the subject of

:45:18.:45:22.

prisons, the Secretary of State started her contribution today by

:45:23.:45:29.

explaining how the Bill introduces a statutory purpose to prisons,

:45:30.:45:34.

protecting the public, reforming and rehabilitating offenders, preparing

:45:35.:45:38.

prisoners for life outside prison and maintaining an environment that

:45:39.:45:42.

is safe and secure. Madam Deputy Speaker, of course we agree with

:45:43.:45:47.

those aims. Most people believe that's what prisons are meant to be

:45:48.:45:52.

doing already anyway. But what is also crystal clear is that those

:45:53.:45:57.

things are not happening today. The main problems in prisons cannot be

:45:58.:46:04.

disputed. Violence, drugs, overcrowding and understaffing. To

:46:05.:46:06.

combat those threats effectively we need a plan for order, a plan to

:46:07.:46:11.

reduce the demand and supply of drugs, a plan to manage the prison

:46:12.:46:15.

population and recruit and retain prison officers. So where is any of

:46:16.:46:21.

that in this Bill itself? Where are the practical measures in this Bill

:46:22.:46:28.

to realise those goals? Madam Deputy Speaker, will be returning to this

:46:29.:46:33.

the -- these issues that the committee stage. Can I try to help

:46:34.:46:38.

my honourable friend? There is a theme running through the

:46:39.:46:40.

Government's approach to this. In the prisons in court Bill, the

:46:41.:46:44.

Government's approach to evidence is somewhat cavalier. Most of us would

:46:45.:46:50.

accept there is likely to be a cause-and-effect in cutting 6500

:46:51.:46:52.

prison officers and only replacing them with 2500 with the introduction

:46:53.:46:59.

of massive employment tribunal claims figures and a lack of access

:47:00.:47:03.

to justice and the Bazaar compensation tariff proposals for

:47:04.:47:07.

whiplash, with no evidence as to where the Government got their

:47:08.:47:11.

figures from just an assertion from the Secretary of State they believe

:47:12.:47:14.

in fair compensation. I believe in Santa Claus as well!

:47:15.:47:18.

Thank you for that intervention. My honourable friend puts it very well

:47:19.:47:22.

indeed. Evidence is required in court and evidence is required in

:47:23.:47:27.

this place. I would submit that there is evidence lacking to back up

:47:28.:47:30.

some of the Government's proposals. I will finish my point and then I

:47:31.:47:36.

will give way. It's simply the case with the Government's review into

:47:37.:47:40.

employment tribunal fees which basically says there was nothing to

:47:41.:47:43.

see here, despite the evidence showing there has been a 70%

:47:44.:47:48.

reduction in cases being brought to employment tribunal. I will give

:47:49.:47:51.

way. I am glad the honourable gentleman

:47:52.:47:54.

is in agreement with so much of what is in this Bill but would he also

:47:55.:47:58.

agree there is a white paper alongside this Bill that does

:47:59.:48:01.

contain a lot of the evidence that he is searching for?

:48:02.:48:06.

Of course we have considered the white paper but the point I made

:48:07.:48:11.

earlier if we will be returning to these practical proposals at the

:48:12.:48:15.

committee stage in attempting to approve the Government's Bill. I

:48:16.:48:19.

would also ask, Madam Deputy Speaker, do the ministers consider

:48:20.:48:23.

the resettlement of prisoners might also be a worthy aim in the Bill?

:48:24.:48:29.

Too many prisoners leave prison without a home to go to. That is a

:48:30.:48:35.

barrier to so many things, including to getting a job. This hampers

:48:36.:48:39.

rehabilitation... I will give way. Is my honourable friend aware of the

:48:40.:48:46.

project which offers a prisoner who is ready to take the step of moving

:48:47.:48:51.

out of drugs, out of the sending, into work, claiming no other

:48:52.:48:58.

benefits and housing benefits. They become a companion, preparing good

:48:59.:49:04.

stew selling a shop, restoring and repairing goods... No real cost

:49:05.:49:08.

other than housing benefit to the state and support for people to

:49:09.:49:12.

absolutely change their lives and it into work. Is that not something you

:49:13.:49:18.

should be following? The project as fantastic work and is the kind of

:49:19.:49:23.

that not only helps turn round the lives of inmates but also helps to

:49:24.:49:27.

protect society. The majority of people who go into prisons come out

:49:28.:49:31.

of our prisons and live next door to all of us. The project helps to give

:49:32.:49:36.

people a stake in society and reduce reoffending. I believe the

:49:37.:49:40.

Government can learn much from such projects. As I was saying, leaving

:49:41.:49:45.

prison without a home to go to is a barrier to so many things, including

:49:46.:49:50.

to getting a job and this hampers peoples and reintegration into

:49:51.:49:53.

society in the way that I mentioned and my honourable friend explained.

:49:54.:50:00.

So the Secretary of State will have overall responsibility for the

:50:01.:50:03.

statutory aims... I will give way. I am so grateful to the honourable

:50:04.:50:07.

gentleman for giving way and welcome his support for many of the

:50:08.:50:10.

provisions of this Bill. Will he also agree with me that the National

:50:11.:50:14.

Grid scheme that was started all those years ago by Doctor Mary

:50:15.:50:19.

Harris is really valuable in finding homes for prisoners? They take

:50:20.:50:21.

prisoners out on temporary licence, they pay them, they find them a job,

:50:22.:50:26.

they have money on the bank and they often find them a home. That is why

:50:27.:50:32.

this programme is so successful. Would he agree with me that really

:50:33.:50:36.

they should be rolled out right across the prison system,

:50:37.:50:39.

particularly as we need about 1.8 million engineers by the year 2020

:50:40.:50:45.

across the whole of the UK? It is certainly a very worthwhile

:50:46.:50:48.

and welcome programme, which is why I've been arguing that the Bill

:50:49.:50:54.

should specifically referred to this kind of practice.

:50:55.:50:57.

In relation to the Secretary of State having overall responsibility

:50:58.:50:59.

for the statutory aims, I think we do need to know more what this would

:51:00.:51:04.

mean in practice and will the Secretary of State tell us who will

:51:05.:51:10.

decide if the Secretary of State is for filling her response abilities?

:51:11.:51:14.

We welcome the additional powers given to the Inspector of prisons.

:51:15.:51:20.

The inspector's report means little, if not nothing, if their

:51:21.:51:24.

recommendations are simply ignored. The Bill, as we've heard earlier,

:51:25.:51:29.

says the Secretary of State must respond within 90 days. Firstly, it

:51:30.:51:33.

would be interesting to know how that period of time has arrived at,

:51:34.:51:37.

but beyond responding to the report, what else will the Secretary of

:51:38.:51:41.

State be required to do? Because many stakeholders tell me that

:51:42.:51:47.

failure to take any action in response to the report of the

:51:48.:51:53.

independent monitoring board contribute to the prisons crisis.

:51:54.:51:58.

The recent tragic death of Dean Saunders is a sad case of what can

:51:59.:52:05.

go wrong when mental health issues and our prison system collide. So

:52:06.:52:10.

has the Secretary of State considered whether she or prison

:52:11.:52:13.

governors should also be required to respond to those findings? And could

:52:14.:52:19.

the role of the governor be more effectively scrutinised through a

:52:20.:52:22.

system of peer to peer review right across the prison estate, whether

:52:23.:52:28.

public or private? The urgent notification system is welcomed but

:52:29.:52:33.

again, how is the 28 day time limit in which to respond arrived at? And

:52:34.:52:36.

does the concept of urgency not demand a shorter period than that?

:52:37.:52:43.

There have been attempts in the past to put prisons and probation

:52:44.:52:49.

ombudsman on a statutory footing and perhaps that is within reach, but

:52:50.:52:55.

that is all the Bill dials in that regard. So what thought did the

:52:56.:53:00.

Justice Secretary give to expanding, or augmenting its powers? There is

:53:01.:53:03.

nothing in this Bill which addresses the need to improve the experience

:53:04.:53:08.

and care of those who come to prison with mental health problems, or even

:53:09.:53:14.

weather prison is the right place for many of them in the first place.

:53:15.:53:21.

On the subject of communications in prisons and mobile phones, blocking

:53:22.:53:25.

the use of unauthorised mobile phones in our prisons is clearly an

:53:26.:53:30.

urgent task and of course, we fully support it.

:53:31.:53:34.

But other measures would complement this innovation and reduce the trade

:53:35.:53:38.

in mobile phones. Committed and hardened criminals will seek out

:53:39.:53:42.

mobile phones to try to continue their criminal enterprises and

:53:43.:53:46.

activities from inside our prisons. But for those prisoners who just

:53:47.:53:51.

want to phone home or phone a friend, greater access to affordable

:53:52.:53:54.

payphones for monitored calls will help to reduce the demand for

:53:55.:54:00.

mobiles. Currently some prisons have payphones in cells, however most

:54:01.:54:08.

prisons have just payphones on the prison wing and at association time

:54:09.:54:11.

the prisoners end up queueing and may not get to use that phone before

:54:12.:54:18.

their association time is up. I think, Madam Deputy Speaker, better

:54:19.:54:23.

access to affordable payphones, with privacy from other inmates, would

:54:24.:54:26.

reduce the demand for mobile phones. But of course we welcome the

:54:27.:54:32.

Government's measures to block the unauthorised use of mobile phones.

:54:33.:54:38.

Developing and using an effective way of testing for psychoactive

:54:39.:54:42.

substances is also vital. However, that alone won't deal with the

:54:43.:54:47.

demand and supply of those substances. Recent reports from

:54:48.:54:51.

inspectorates have found that overcrowding and a shortage of

:54:52.:54:55.

prison officers means intelligence led drug tests are sadly a rarity.

:54:56.:55:00.

But the best and most effective way of reducing the demand for drugs is

:55:01.:55:05.

to ensure a full and purposeful programme for all prisoners, so that

:55:06.:55:07.

their time in prison is occupied. Many of these problems with which we

:55:08.:55:17.

are now grappling can be linked to the disastrous decision to cut

:55:18.:55:24.

prison officer numbers by 7000, or 30%, since 2010. The public sector

:55:25.:55:28.

pay freeze has made recruitment more difficult and without sufficient

:55:29.:55:32.

numbers of officers in prisons they cannot maintain order, they don't

:55:33.:55:36.

have time to mix with prisoners and gather intelligence. Nor do they

:55:37.:55:41.

have the time to conduct searches, fabric checks of cells or drugs

:55:42.:55:48.

testing. I will give way. In the context of insufficient staff, does

:55:49.:55:53.

he welcomed the establishment of prisons ombudsman with considerable

:55:54.:55:57.

powers, including the power to direct the form of the response to

:55:58.:56:01.

be made by the secretary of state to a report from the ombudsman? It is a

:56:02.:56:06.

considerable power and if we have a strong ombudsman who would be

:56:07.:56:09.

prepared in certain circumstances became necessary to face up to the

:56:10.:56:13.

Secretary of State that is a powerful protection when the

:56:14.:56:16.

ombudsman investigates deaths as deaths as well as other complaints.

:56:17.:56:18.

That is a very important point, of course we

:56:19.:56:32.

support a strong ombudsman we want reassurances that the Secretary of

:56:33.:56:34.

State will not just have to respond to the ombudsman but had to take

:56:35.:56:37.

action on the basis of the findings of the ombudsman. Prison officers

:56:38.:56:39.

that I speak to wants to help offenders turn the lights around,

:56:40.:56:42.

they want more responsibility and to be part of a value profession. They

:56:43.:56:48.

don't want to be viewed as just turn keys but successive Conservative

:56:49.:56:50.

justice secretaries have diminished their role. Away from the Bill, the

:56:51.:56:57.

government has, as mentioned earlier, set out plans for league

:56:58.:57:02.

tables and greater autonomy for prison governors. One wonders why

:57:03.:57:05.

the government are persisting with the league tables idea when it was

:57:06.:57:09.

first dismissed by the Chief Inspector of prisons, Peter Clarke,

:57:10.:57:15.

at the Justice committee in January. The Prison Governors Association

:57:16.:57:18.

have said that league tables will not achieve anything other than to

:57:19.:57:22.

risk demoralising staff and unfairly judging the senior management team.

:57:23.:57:27.

Perhaps that is what prompted the prisons minister to tell the Justice

:57:28.:57:32.

committee it would be performance data. The Prison Governors

:57:33.:57:36.

Association also fears increased governor autonomy coinciding with

:57:37.:57:39.

increased responsibility for the Justice Secretary may result in,

:57:40.:57:46.

heaven forbid, in blame being pushed their way, saying governors are

:57:47.:57:51.

being asked, this is what the Prison Governors Association have said,

:57:52.:57:53.

governors are being asked to sign up to agreements that will become

:57:54.:57:56.

effective in five weeks with insufficient detail on what they

:57:57.:57:59.

will be held account for. The risk is the prison reform Bill will

:58:00.:58:04.

become the prison blame Bill. Further inroads into overcrowding

:58:05.:58:10.

and the chaos could be made by considering who is being remanded

:58:11.:58:14.

and why. Whether some offenders with mental health problems need a

:58:15.:58:17.

different approach and in dealing with a backlog of IPP prisoners. We

:58:18.:58:22.

see insufficient action to address any of these things. We were told,

:58:23.:58:27.

Madam Deputy Speaker, that this bill will transform the lives of the

:58:28.:58:31.

offenders, but just saying that is the case won't make it so because

:58:32.:58:36.

transforming lives means first transforming their system. I want to

:58:37.:58:43.

turn now to the subject of quartz and tribunal 's, which I touched

:58:44.:58:50.

upon earlier. Since 2010 government legal aid cuts have robbed thousands

:58:51.:58:55.

of the legal representation which should be there right. Many of them

:58:56.:59:00.

are those who are most in need of legal representation, people in

:59:01.:59:05.

debt, people claiming welfare benefits, people facing marital

:59:06.:59:08.

breakdown and people facing housing problems, those are just some of the

:59:09.:59:17.

examples. In 2012/13 724,243 civil law cases were funded by legal aid.

:59:18.:59:24.

After the legal aid sentencing and punishment of offenders act that

:59:25.:59:30.

figure plummeted. It plummeted to 258,460, now, I do recognise that

:59:31.:59:35.

some on the benches opposite will toast these figures, as evidence of

:59:36.:59:41.

a job well done, but in reality what else is this bug proof of access to

:59:42.:59:48.

justice denied? The Coalition Government introduced employment

:59:49.:59:51.

tribunal fees and that measure resulted in a 70% reduction in the

:59:52.:59:57.

number of cases brought. The long delayed review that I mentioned

:59:58.:00:00.

earlier essentially concluded that there is nothing to see here, and it

:00:01.:00:07.

said that while there is clear evidence that the fees have

:00:08.:00:11.

discouraged people from bringing claims, there is no conclusive

:00:12.:00:14.

evidence they had been presented -- prevented from doing so. And only

:00:15.:00:19.

illegal treatment by employers flouting the law of the land had

:00:20.:00:25.

reduced by 70%. It is the number of cases that have reduced by 70%, not

:00:26.:00:29.

the number of incidences of illegal treatment. I will give way. Isn't it

:00:30.:00:34.

the case that if someone get something for nothing it is likely

:00:35.:00:38.

they will take it up, and that was the core problem with employment

:00:39.:00:41.

tribunal is, when people had to pay absolutely nothing to get access. It

:00:42.:00:45.

is right if one goes to court that one pays some kind of fee. That is a

:00:46.:00:52.

very useful intervention because it lays clear what the conservative

:00:53.:00:57.

view on access to justice is. The idea of something for nothing. If

:00:58.:01:03.

somebody has not been paid them a national minimum wage, why should

:01:04.:01:06.

they be charged to ensure they get that money back Barack Obama if

:01:07.:01:10.

someone has not been paid their proper wage, if somebody has been

:01:11.:01:14.

discriminated against on grounds of modernity, disability, or pregnancy

:01:15.:01:20.

related discrimination, to say that these are people looking for

:01:21.:01:23.

something for nothing is outrageous and it takes me back to the time

:01:24.:01:30.

when I was an employment lawyer acting for these people that the

:01:31.:01:35.

honourable member dismisses in such a cavalier fashion. I remember the

:01:36.:01:40.

first time I lodged a case after the fees were introduced, I lodged a

:01:41.:01:44.

case and it said on the employment tribunal service website, customer,

:01:45.:01:48.

please enter your cos -- credit card details. Isn't that shameful once we

:01:49.:01:54.

start looking at our citizens attempting to assert their statutory

:01:55.:01:57.

rights, whether it is the right for the minimum wage or not be

:01:58.:02:01.

discriminated against, when we primarily see them as consumers and

:02:02.:02:04.

not citizens attempting to assert rights made in this place and it

:02:05.:02:08.

shows the priorities of our society and our justice system have been

:02:09.:02:13.

warped by this government. I will give way. I am grateful to him,

:02:14.:02:18.

would he agree with me that part of the difference of opinion here, of

:02:19.:02:22.

course, is that some on the opposition benches apparently have

:02:23.:02:24.

overlooked the fact that employment tribunal is a very often brought by

:02:25.:02:29.

people who have no job, they have no income, that is why they are

:02:30.:02:33.

bringing a tribunal case. It is very different from a big commercial

:02:34.:02:37.

dispute where one pays court fees for access to justice. Tribunal fees

:02:38.:02:47.

to people with no job is the substance of the reason they have a

:02:48.:02:52.

tribunal. This is a very important point indeed. People are being

:02:53.:02:56.

charged employment tribunal fees that exceed the underpayment of the

:02:57.:03:01.

wage about which they are complaining, so that really

:03:02.:03:07.

discourages claims. He is failing to mention that this was a policy which

:03:08.:03:14.

was designed, in part, to have more cases conciliators, and now instead

:03:15.:03:19.

of 23,000 cases a year going to a case, 92000 and half of them are

:03:20.:03:23.

resolved, and of course that is free. The objective of the Coalition

:03:24.:03:33.

Government in introducing employment Tribunal fees was to strengthen the

:03:34.:03:38.

hand of employers, including unscrupulous employers, and weaken

:03:39.:03:41.

the hand of the individual employees and that is why it is a policy that

:03:42.:03:45.

from the perspective of the government has worked. That is what

:03:46.:03:52.

it was about, and as for ACAS conciliation, the ACAS conciliation

:03:53.:03:55.

offered now is compulsory conciliation and it isn't the same

:03:56.:03:59.

as the role of ACAS in the past when people have issued an employment

:04:00.:04:03.

tribunal case. There is no professional advice given on the

:04:04.:04:07.

value of the case and just because a claim has been not issued or a match

:04:08.:04:12.

has been discontinued, doesn't mean there has been resolved

:04:13.:04:15.

satisfactorily and both parties on an equal footing. To make it clear,

:04:16.:04:20.

Labour would abolish employment Tribunal fees because Labour

:04:21.:04:28.

believes in access to justice. The honourable member shakes his head.

:04:29.:04:35.

He shakes his head, but the honourable members comments earlier

:04:36.:04:37.

about people looking for something for nothing shows how out of touch

:04:38.:04:45.

here's so I will give way. I am suggesting that the honourable

:04:46.:04:48.

gentleman 's policies giving something for nothing. Morvan

:04:49.:04:56.

implicit in the honourable gentleman 's ill considered comments are the

:04:57.:05:05.

fact that to allow people to seek justice in the employment courts

:05:06.:05:09.

without paying money is something for nothing. That is a disgraceful

:05:10.:05:16.

comment and I look forward to publicising it as widely as we can.

:05:17.:05:21.

The government needs to think again when it comes to employment tribunal

:05:22.:05:27.

fees. If we move from a system where very many cases go to the industrial

:05:28.:05:33.

tribunal, the employment tribunal, to one where most cases are

:05:34.:05:36.

conciliators, what is wrong with that? It is a much easier way for

:05:37.:05:42.

people to get justice? The problem is that the prize that is being paid

:05:43.:05:48.

is the price of access to justice and to ask at least on this side of

:05:49.:05:56.

the house that is unacceptable. Is the government seriously contending

:05:57.:06:01.

that 70% of claims brought before 2013 were somehow fraudulent? If so,

:06:02.:06:10.

that is absolutely outrageous. Can my friend repeat the figures because

:06:11.:06:14.

I thought you said round terms that after these changes there were

:06:15.:06:19.

500,000 fewer cases and the Minister has indicated that 70,000 more cases

:06:20.:06:23.

go to arbitration, that is a big gas and still over 400,000 people who

:06:24.:06:27.

aren't getting access to justice. That is right. That is completely

:06:28.:06:33.

right, and the final point I will make on this subject before I move

:06:34.:06:37.

on to courts and tribunal closures is that employment tribunal fees,

:06:38.:06:41.

the introduction of them, have harmed not only those who would

:06:42.:06:45.

bring a case but it has harmed those who would never dream of bringing a

:06:46.:06:49.

case, the reason being that if their employer knows there is virtue no

:06:50.:06:53.

chance if they break the law of an employee bringing a case against it

:06:54.:06:57.

actually gives a green light to one scrupulous employers because they

:06:58.:06:59.

know that the risk is so much diminished of them being held to

:07:00.:07:02.

account and this goes to the root of what access to Justices. Legal

:07:03.:07:07.

rights are basically worthless if you can't enforce them, if you can't

:07:08.:07:12.

rely on them for reason of lack of resource or any other on the subject

:07:13.:07:19.

of courts and tribunal closures, to government programmes in marked a

:07:20.:07:25.

total of 243 courts and tribunal 's foreclosure and this has obvious and

:07:26.:07:29.

long-lasting effects on the principle of local justice. The cuts

:07:30.:07:36.

have led to an increased number of people forced to represent

:07:37.:07:39.

themselves and as far back as 2014 figures such as the Lord Chief

:07:40.:07:45.

Justice Lord Chief Thomas were warning of the rise of unrepresented

:07:46.:07:49.

litigants, of litigants in person. The Justice committee in 2015 in its

:07:50.:07:56.

report into the impact of this said that the result is that the courts

:07:57.:08:01.

are having to expend more resources to assist litigants in person and

:08:02.:08:05.

require more funding to cope. We know that and we know that litigants

:08:06.:08:12.

in person clog up the system and actually make the court system less

:08:13.:08:17.

efficient. We, members of parliament, know as well that from

:08:18.:08:21.

our advice Sissons at the weekend is that they are full of people who

:08:22.:08:28.

need a lawyer but cannot get one. Ministers seem to treat the

:08:29.:08:31.

involvement of lawyers and potential litigation is fundamentally a bad

:08:32.:08:36.

thing. This misses much of the point. Those honourable members who

:08:37.:08:41.

ever needed to use a lawyer, those who have ever been lawyers

:08:42.:08:45.

themselves, will know the valuable role lawyers play in dissuading

:08:46.:08:50.

clients from ill-advised litigation, from encouraging fair settlement

:08:51.:08:54.

where possible, and settlement that is fair and beneficial to the client

:08:55.:08:57.

and in shortening the length of proceedings in court. To that end,

:08:58.:09:06.

the probation contained in part two of cross-examination of the abuse by

:09:07.:09:10.

the abuse is of course very, very welcome. The stark evidence from

:09:11.:09:14.

groups such as a women's aid is that this gap in the law was being used

:09:15.:09:19.

as a further means of control and a further means of abuse. Yet, despite

:09:20.:09:25.

the fact that we very much welcome this measure, it cannot be left

:09:26.:09:31.

unsaid that the reason that this problem became so pronounced it was

:09:32.:09:34.

because of the government 's legal aid cuts. It is very damaging and

:09:35.:09:40.

profound way that exacerbated a very serious problem. The body of family

:09:41.:09:49.

solicitors make it clear that the impact of this has led to an

:09:50.:09:52.

increase in litigants in person, meaning we have seen a rise in the

:09:53.:09:58.

number of defendants cross-examining those that they have abused.

:09:59.:10:02.

To turn to the subject of modernisation. Few would disagree

:10:03.:10:11.

the court system needs modernising and digitising. Some would say it is

:10:12.:10:15.

in more need of modernisation than this place. But there remains too

:10:16.:10:19.

much paper involvement when technology has made it possible for

:10:20.:10:25.

much documentation to be stored and amended using tablets and the like.

:10:26.:10:30.

Technology alone doesn't demolish barriers to access to justice, it

:10:31.:10:34.

can exacerbate the risks. Madam Deputy Speaker, we favour

:10:35.:10:37.

streamlining justice and reducing unnecessary court hearings and

:10:38.:10:43.

recognise that part two of this Bill seeks to achieve that. But as the

:10:44.:10:48.

chair of the bar Council has warned, the fact that online courts, in his

:10:49.:10:53.

words, might encourage defendants to plead guilty out of convenience when

:10:54.:10:57.

in fact they may not be guilty of an offence in a matter how small, risks

:10:58.:11:01.

injustice. We have to be mindful of that. The Law Society also issued a

:11:02.:11:05.

caution in its briefing on this Bill, saying although we welcome the

:11:06.:11:11.

introduction of these measures as a way to improve efficiency, there are

:11:12.:11:14.

serious risks associated with them in the absence of adequate access to

:11:15.:11:19.

legal advice. Safeguards must be in place to ensure that the defendant

:11:20.:11:23.

is aware of the consequences of indicating that plea in writing and

:11:24.:11:29.

other measures highlighted above. Madam Deputy Speaker, online courts

:11:30.:11:33.

again present the opportunity for a modern and desirable way of using

:11:34.:11:37.

technology to reduce court hearings and deal with preliminary matters

:11:38.:11:42.

and hopefully an efficient way. The Law Society again in its briefing

:11:43.:11:46.

cautions that online convictions should be thoroughly tested and

:11:47.:11:50.

reviewed before being expanded. We therefore hope the Government will

:11:51.:11:57.

be open to amendments which allow for reviews to take place after a

:11:58.:12:01.

specified time, which would seem sensible to do so. Virtual hearings,

:12:02.:12:06.

procedures on papers only and written plea and mode of trial

:12:07.:12:11.

procedures will all need to be reviewed in time. The Government

:12:12.:12:14.

needs to give closer consideration to safeguards and we will seek to

:12:15.:12:18.

achieve those safeguards. In relation to whiplash... The

:12:19.:12:26.

clauses contained in part five of this Bill will have come as a relief

:12:27.:12:30.

to many. The Government has backed away from increasing the small

:12:31.:12:34.

claims limit across personal injury, and that is indeed welcome. But the

:12:35.:12:39.

Government, as we know, sees the personal injury lawyer lurking

:12:40.:12:45.

around every corner. The Minister for courts and tribunals even

:12:46.:12:49.

mistook me for a personal injury lawyer! There is a former personal

:12:50.:12:54.

injury lawyer behind me, although he only has one job now... But the

:12:55.:13:00.

Association of Personal Injury Lawyers made clear in written

:13:01.:13:03.

evidence to the justice committee that even when whiplash statistics

:13:04.:13:09.

are combined with the number of injuries registered by insurers as

:13:10.:13:14.

neck and back injuries there has been, as I said earlier, a

:13:15.:13:19.

significant fall of 11% since 2011-12. There are profound problems

:13:20.:13:23.

which exist with the tariff system proposed. As the Government has

:13:24.:13:28.

accepted, the amount it set out elsewhere are low but too low.

:13:29.:13:33.

Companies -- compensation must be in line with the extent of the injury.

:13:34.:13:37.

When taken together in the increase of the small claims to ?5,000, all

:13:38.:13:42.

victims of road traffic accidents, not only victims of whiplash, would

:13:43.:13:47.

not be entitled to recover legal costs where the compensation does

:13:48.:13:51.

not exceed ?5,000. That will inevitably deter people from

:13:52.:13:54.

accessing legal representation and deter genuine claims. So the

:13:55.:13:59.

Government should consider, Madam Deputy Speaker, ensuring victims of

:14:00.:14:04.

road traffic accidents are able to recover their legal costs.

:14:05.:14:08.

We've heard repeatedly, and it's a subject we touched upon earlier,

:14:09.:14:13.

that the proposals in the Bill will lead to reduced premiums by as much

:14:14.:14:18.

as ?40 a year on average. The Law Society has questioned the accuracy

:14:19.:14:22.

of these figures. It says that the pass rates on which they are

:14:23.:14:25.

predicated are difficult to predict and it is unclear how the 85%

:14:26.:14:30.

savings rate has been calculated. As my honourable friend made the point

:14:31.:14:35.

in his intervention earlier, it's a matter of evidence, or in this case

:14:36.:14:39.

lack of it. Most obviously there is no mechanism by which insurers can

:14:40.:14:44.

be made to pass on any savings to consumers. We hear a lot of insults

:14:45.:14:49.

thrown at the British people about a rampant claims culture, about people

:14:50.:14:52.

being on the make and on the fiddle. We here a lot less about the

:14:53.:14:57.

behaviour of some insurers when it comes to saving to defend weak

:14:58.:15:05.

claims and we hear a lot less about how much the insurance industry are

:15:06.:15:09.

making out of all of this. And only a tiny minority of companies, by the

:15:10.:15:13.

way, insurance companies, have said they will pass on any savings.

:15:14.:15:17.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Government needs to take action to

:15:18.:15:22.

win those guarantees. And to conclude, I will look forward to the

:15:23.:15:29.

remainder of the debate today. As I started by saying, Labour does not

:15:30.:15:33.

oppose the Bill at second reading but we do lament that it lacks so

:15:34.:15:38.

much. I'd suggest that the Bill itself must transform, if the Bill

:15:39.:15:41.

is to transform. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:15:42.:15:53.

start by thanking the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State

:15:54.:16:00.

for the courtesy she has shown to me as chair of the select committee, in

:16:01.:16:02.

keeping me appraised as to the progress of this Bill. It is very

:16:03.:16:07.

welcome. Although there have been occasions that when the select

:16:08.:16:11.

committee has come up with constructive criticism or

:16:12.:16:15.

counterintelligence to the Government throughout the

:16:16.:16:18.

ministerial team you engage with this positively. I welcome the deal

:16:19.:16:22.

and the tone of my right honourable friend's speech very much indeed.

:16:23.:16:26.

This is an important Bill and it's important for a number of reasons.

:16:27.:16:30.

Firstly because it deals with some very important topics. Secondly,

:16:31.:16:34.

because it is wide enough in scope to merit acting as a framework for

:16:35.:16:40.

further improvement as we go forward.

:16:41.:16:45.

I will start with prisons, with your permission, but I will confine

:16:46.:16:49.

myself to that. Prisons is obviously the most significant issue that sits

:16:50.:16:53.

upon the right honourable lady's agenda and it is the matter of

:16:54.:16:58.

greatest concern to the Justice select committee. We issued a number

:16:59.:17:01.

of reports in the course of this Parliament, as we did in the

:17:02.:17:05.

previous one, about the situation in our prisons. Let's be blunt, the

:17:06.:17:11.

situation is grim. That is not the doing of my right honourable friend

:17:12.:17:14.

but something that has grown over a number of years and under the watch

:17:15.:17:17.

of governments and different political complexion is as well. We

:17:18.:17:21.

do now need to tackle this as a matter of real urgency.

:17:22.:17:26.

There are a number of factors, no simple reason why we have got into

:17:27.:17:30.

the difficulty we have in our prisons and similarly there is no

:17:31.:17:33.

single silver bullet as to a solution either. One that is in the

:17:34.:17:37.

Bill is a very valuable and worthwhile framework on which to

:17:38.:17:42.

hang a wider suite of reforms. I hope very much that my right

:17:43.:17:47.

honourable friend will take courage to be bold and radical in those

:17:48.:17:51.

reforms. My side of the House should not be

:17:52.:17:57.

afraid of being advocates of prison reform. It is a fundamental and

:17:58.:18:02.

important social cause and I'm proud to be a member of a party that has a

:18:03.:18:08.

long tradition of advocating social reform running back through

:18:09.:18:12.

Wilberforce, through Shaftesbury, through the reforming work of

:18:13.:18:19.

Richard 's cross, his Home Secretary and of others. The right honourable

:18:20.:18:23.

lady takes on the proposals of my right honourable friend the member

:18:24.:18:28.

for Surrey Heath, follows in a radical Tory tradition and it's one

:18:29.:18:33.

I welcome and one we should not be afraid to make the case for. Of

:18:34.:18:37.

course I will give way. He's making available contribution

:18:38.:18:43.

and I agree about the many merits of this Bill. Does he not agree with me

:18:44.:18:47.

it is a missed opportunity, in terms of improving the opportunities for

:18:48.:18:55.

prisoners, improving the deadlock reducing the rates of reoffending by

:18:56.:18:58.

not having improving and protecting the rights, the mental health of

:18:59.:19:04.

prisoners on the front page of the Bill in clause one?

:19:05.:19:09.

It's a perfectly fair point my honourable friend makes. I imagine

:19:10.:19:13.

it's going to be almost impossible to put every single objective upon

:19:14.:19:15.

the face of the Bill and I suspect it will be set by ministers that

:19:16.:19:20.

these are intended to be the broad and overarching objectives. But the

:19:21.:19:24.

issue of mental health in prisons is a most profound and important one. I

:19:25.:19:28.

would have no objection were it to be on the face of the Bill, but

:19:29.:19:32.

equally I think the most important thing is the political goodwill of

:19:33.:19:36.

ministers to ensure that within the frame arc of the Bill, even as it

:19:37.:19:40.

currently stands, it remains a top priority. I hope he and I and others

:19:41.:19:45.

who share this concern across the House will be able to work hard to

:19:46.:19:48.

make sure that is delivered. That is part of the reason that we

:19:49.:19:54.

need to tackle prison reform. Part of what we seek to do is give a

:19:55.:19:58.

legal framework. Part of that itself is in the Bill. The rest of it, in

:19:59.:20:03.

important measures, is set out in the white paper, which was a very

:20:04.:20:07.

significant and progressive document in the right sense of the world. Let

:20:08.:20:12.

me make this point... -- right sense of the word. What we need across the

:20:13.:20:18.

House to recognise is that we must have political will to tackle

:20:19.:20:22.

reform, and that includes creating a climate of public opinion that

:20:23.:20:27.

accepts that political reform is not a soft option, it is not something

:20:28.:20:33.

that is done out of a kind of soft-headed liberalism on doing

:20:34.:20:40.

good... It is done first sound and profound social, moral and ethical

:20:41.:20:45.

reasons and also brings with it real societal and economical benefits. I

:20:46.:20:49.

will give way. Thank you for giving way. As he will

:20:50.:20:53.

be aware, the white paper set out a whole range of proposals to deal

:20:54.:20:57.

with increasing violence, increasing self harm and persistently high

:20:58.:21:02.

levels of reoffending. Given that we know, as he outlined in his remarks,

:21:03.:21:11.

the profound connection between poor mental health of prisoners on those

:21:12.:21:15.

issues, including substance misuse, which is often linked with poor

:21:16.:21:18.

mental health, it does seem very surprising to me that in clause one

:21:19.:21:22.

that is not on the face of this Bill a mention of improving the mental

:21:23.:21:26.

health of prisoners. I suspect my honourable friend will

:21:27.:21:31.

return to that topic as the Bill makes its progress and there may be

:21:32.:21:34.

other opportunities for others to do so as well. Certainly, in the course

:21:35.:21:39.

of our ongoing enquiries into prison reform, the select committee has

:21:40.:21:43.

already taken some evidence in relation to the difficulties of

:21:44.:21:48.

mental health provision. We had practitioners, and give evidence to

:21:49.:21:51.

us recently and that is certainly a topic we will want to return to and

:21:52.:21:56.

I know others may address in the course of this debate. I will give

:21:57.:21:58.

way to my honourable and landed friend.

:21:59.:22:02.

Thank you to my friend for giving way. He mentioned that the need for

:22:03.:22:07.

political will. He is correct in saying so, but if you ask members of

:22:08.:22:13.

the public, both on an individual basis but on a more organised basis,

:22:14.:22:18.

what they think about the current state of our prisons on what they

:22:19.:22:20.

think needs to be done in our justice system, they are much more

:22:21.:22:26.

liberal than politicians give them credit for. We need to be braver and

:22:27.:22:30.

get on with this, rather than allow ourselves to be pushed around by

:22:31.:22:37.

various, shall we say, disobliging organs to the media who want us to

:22:38.:22:40.

be more and more Draconian in the way we deal with prisons.

:22:41.:22:44.

My honourable friend is absolutely right. He moves me very neatly onto

:22:45.:22:50.

the next thing I was almost about to say, because that political will

:22:51.:22:55.

does require us, sometimes, to stand up against the writers of Bellerin

:22:56.:22:59.

headlines and those who actually pose as voices of public opinion but

:23:00.:23:06.

actually seek to be manipulators of it. I'd actually say the truth is in

:23:07.:23:14.

everybody's interest that we reduce reoffending because the more we do

:23:15.:23:18.

that, the fewer victims that are of crime. That is in everybody's case a

:23:19.:23:23.

good right of centre and left of centre case for reform and we shall

:23:24.:23:26.

make it across the House. I will give way to the honourable lady

:23:27.:23:29.

opposite first. Thank you. Would the honourable

:23:30.:23:33.

gentleman agree that one of the ways we could actually dramatically cut

:23:34.:23:37.

reoffending would be if we looked at how many people are revolving door

:23:38.:23:44.

entrance in and out of prison, not because of criminal intent but

:23:45.:23:47.

because of their mental health condition drives them to behave in a

:23:48.:23:52.

way that actually leads them inevitably into the arms of the

:23:53.:23:56.

police, because they are becoming the social workers for the mentally

:23:57.:24:00.

ill, and into the criminal justice system rather than to our

:24:01.:24:03.

psychiatric hospitals that are massively overcrowded and

:24:04.:24:08.

underfunded. The honourable for lady makes a very fair and reasonable

:24:09.:24:12.

point. That is a significant factor. I practised as a criminal lawyer for

:24:13.:24:20.

the better part of 30 years. I both prosecuted undefended, so I had no

:24:21.:24:23.

compunction about sending away people who have committed serious

:24:24.:24:28.

crimes, but equally when I defended people, and when I looked at some of

:24:29.:24:31.

those whom I prosecuted in the course of that career, there were

:24:32.:24:37.

some people who were dangerous, were unpleasant and in some cases

:24:38.:24:41.

downright evil and they deserved to go to prison and is deserved to go

:24:42.:24:45.

to prison for a very long time. There were others who were weak and

:24:46.:24:50.

who were stupid. Some who were greedy and sometimes, particular for

:24:51.:24:56.

those who were greedy, that to deserved punishment and prism is

:24:57.:24:59.

appropriate for that, but there were also those who were weak, who were

:25:00.:25:04.

vulnerable, who found themselves in a situation where they were easily

:25:05.:25:09.

coerced. People who have made a series of errors in the course of

:25:10.:25:14.

their lives. People who suffered either from mental, physical or

:25:15.:25:17.

other illness or real other social pressures around them, and we do

:25:18.:25:22.

have to be much more discriminating and sophisticated in the way in

:25:23.:25:26.

which we deal with defendants in our justice system.

:25:27.:25:31.

I will make this point first and then I will give way to our

:25:32.:25:37.

honourable friend. Present doesn't always work, it works for some

:25:38.:25:40.

people but not for everybody all of the time and we have to be a rave

:25:41.:25:45.

enough to have a political debate to say that and as my honourable

:25:46.:25:50.

learned friend the former Solicitor General rightly says, the public are

:25:51.:25:54.

much more alert and that and realistic about that and much more

:25:55.:25:57.

willing to buy that argument. We just simply need to have the courage

:25:58.:26:04.

to make it. I will give way. I am not entirely sure where my

:26:05.:26:07.

honourable friends go out in an evening during the day, I am not

:26:08.:26:11.

sure lawyers dinner parties reflect public opinion at large, but would

:26:12.:26:19.

my honourable friend accept that since Michael Howard started the

:26:20.:26:22.

trend of sending more people to prison the crime rate has fallen, so

:26:23.:26:27.

what would my honourable friend make about that direct correlation

:26:28.:26:30.

between the prison population going up in the crime rate going down? I

:26:31.:26:38.

rather suspect I have met a broader selection of society then you can

:26:39.:26:46.

meet in the average bookmakers! 's I think we can sometimes have to be

:26:47.:26:51.

prepared to stand up and challenge the stereotypes were ever in the

:26:52.:26:55.

political spectrum they come from. It diminishes the value of prison if

:26:56.:27:00.

we adopt a knee jerk approach to locking people up and throwing away

:27:01.:27:06.

the key is always the best solution in all circumstances. It is for the

:27:07.:27:10.

dangerous. I had no compunction as saying that those involved in the

:27:11.:27:14.

Brinks mat trial in which I was involved deserve to go away to

:27:15.:27:18.

prison for very long times. One was later convicted of murder and a very

:27:19.:27:23.

serious murder indeed and I hope they stay in prison for a very long

:27:24.:27:30.

indeed. Equally those who commit crimes to feed drugs habits aren't

:27:31.:27:34.

not served by lengthy prison sentences, nor to the point the

:27:35.:27:39.

public is not served in the long run because the real difficulty that we

:27:40.:27:44.

face is theirs. We incarcerate more people per hundred thousand of

:27:45.:27:47.

population than virtually any other of our western European comparators.

:27:48.:27:52.

It is more than Spain, more than France, which has a very similar

:27:53.:27:57.

demographic and social logical economic problems and indicators to

:27:58.:28:01.

ourselves. They are a good comparator in many respects. We have

:28:02.:28:07.

over 140 per 100,000 of population, France about 98 per hundred thousand

:28:08.:28:11.

population. I will make this the point before I give way to my

:28:12.:28:18.

honourable friend. We shall bear in mind that our rate of incarceration

:28:19.:28:23.

is practically double that of Germany, a country very similar to

:28:24.:28:27.

ourselves and many other respects. That cannot be because of some

:28:28.:28:33.

inherent greater criminality on the part of the British people, it is

:28:34.:28:39.

simply that we do not perhaps at the moment have a sufficiently

:28:40.:28:40.

sophisticated suite of alternatives to custody to give, if you like, a

:28:41.:28:49.

robust and publicly acceptable alternative so sentences often feel

:28:50.:28:54.

obliged to fall back on custody. Another point about reminded that

:28:55.:28:58.

when people are in custody generally Germany and the Netherlands in

:28:59.:29:03.

particular are able to do a better job of rehabilitation because their

:29:04.:29:06.

reoffending rates are much lower. That is why short sentences, I think

:29:07.:29:11.

the government recognises as much as other, -- commentators, very seldom

:29:12.:29:14.

have a positive effect on the government are right and to be

:29:15.:29:18.

commended in saying that we need to look at prison reform in terms of

:29:19.:29:21.

what happens imprisons and we also need to look at what happens when

:29:22.:29:24.

people come through the great -- Gate and the support they get in the

:29:25.:29:28.

community and also at what diversionary activities can be put

:29:29.:29:33.

in early on when people come into contact with the criminal justice

:29:34.:29:35.

system to make sure they proceed no further down that path. It is a

:29:36.:29:39.

holistic approach and the government is right in that regard. He has been

:29:40.:29:46.

typically gracious and kind, but notwithstanding the point he made,

:29:47.:29:50.

the fact that the matter is that for every 100 -- every 1000 crimes

:29:51.:29:54.

committed in this country only about 19 are sent to prison which is one

:29:55.:29:57.

of the lowest ratios of every single country in the world and perhaps you

:29:58.:30:01.

could tell us which countries have a lower ratio of people get sent to

:30:02.:30:04.

prison per 1000 crimes committed, because that is the best measure of

:30:05.:30:09.

how many criminals we sent to prison, rather than the population

:30:10.:30:16.

percentages. My honourable friend perhaps neglects to say that

:30:17.:30:20.

reporting arrangements are very different in other countries,

:30:21.:30:22.

particular when we deal with younger people in the criminal justice

:30:23.:30:26.

system so the diversion work that is often carried out in those countries

:30:27.:30:31.

in a different way does not give that kind of correlation. I would

:30:32.:30:35.

also point out it is not just in Europe. A number of the states in

:30:36.:30:40.

the United States, which we don't always think, particularly current

:30:41.:30:44.

circumstances, of being a beacon of social progressiveness, are actually

:30:45.:30:49.

more effective than we are in terms of rehabilitation, in terms of

:30:50.:30:54.

meaningful community penalties, and in terms of making sure the Siders

:30:55.:30:59.

is lower. Some of those, I might add, are carried out on the watch of

:31:00.:31:02.

republican governors. There was actually a cost for money base --

:31:03.:31:07.

case for imprisoning fewer people as well as a social outcomes case so we

:31:08.:31:11.

ought to be prepared to make the case for prison reform is being a

:31:12.:31:15.

very important objective of any government. That is why the bill, I

:31:16.:31:21.

think, is an important step in achieving that and of course there

:31:22.:31:24.

is a lot more that is not in the bill that we need to work on. In

:31:25.:31:27.

terms of the bill itself, the statutory purposes a good one. I

:31:28.:31:32.

honour -- I understand my honourable is friend 's friend point about what

:31:33.:31:38.

goes into it but the balance between safety of the public and the inmate

:31:39.:31:45.

with reform rehabilitation and improvement is I think the

:31:46.:31:47.

overarching set of principles to have. The new duties on the

:31:48.:31:54.

Secretary of State are important and I suspect they are justiciable but

:31:55.:31:57.

nonetheless it is important that we have proper accountability

:31:58.:32:03.

mechanisms. In particular the new power for the Chief Inspector of

:32:04.:32:06.

Prisons, to actually have the right to have a response to his report is

:32:07.:32:12.

especially important. The current Chief Inspector is an excellent

:32:13.:32:16.

appointment. I have had the privilege of shadowing his team when

:32:17.:32:21.

they carried out a prison inspection which happened to be my right

:32:22.:32:23.

honourable friend the Justice Secretary 's local prison at Norwich

:32:24.:32:27.

and I have seen a thorough and professional they are about it but

:32:28.:32:32.

as she will know and the prison principles will know and we know on

:32:33.:32:35.

the select committee, one of the great centres of frustration that he

:32:36.:32:39.

has is that repeatedly in some cases the bulk, not just a few, but the

:32:40.:32:45.

overwhelming majority of his recommendations are not taken on

:32:46.:32:49.

board so the ability to make sure that they are taken and a proper

:32:50.:32:53.

reason is given why not is very important because too many it is the

:32:54.:32:57.

same serial offenders at prisons that come around time and time again

:32:58.:33:01.

who reckon their recommendations are being ignored. This is an important

:33:02.:33:05.

legal step that underpins progress on the point has already been made

:33:06.:33:08.

about the prison probation 's ombudsman and I agree with that

:33:09.:33:13.

entirely. These are, I think, important and welcome measures as

:33:14.:33:18.

far as the prisons and dimension is concerned, as are the issues around

:33:19.:33:23.

new psychoactive substances and interference with mobile phones.

:33:24.:33:25.

These are all important steps forward. In terms of the rest of the

:33:26.:33:30.

bill, the modernisation of court proceedings is important and I think

:33:31.:33:34.

it is valuable. I think is the one thing that really to say is that I

:33:35.:33:37.

hope the government has the bill goes forward will bear in mind some

:33:38.:33:40.

of the caveats raised by practitioners, in particular the bar

:33:41.:33:45.

Council and the Law Society but also criminal bar Association and the

:33:46.:33:48.

criminal solicitors Association to make sure we do not have any

:33:49.:33:51.

unintended consequences. It is important when we are dealing with

:33:52.:33:54.

things that potentially give rise to a conviction online people do have

:33:55.:33:58.

the resource to make an informed decision both in relation to the

:33:59.:34:03.

play and that means of election and so forth. Having access to that is

:34:04.:34:08.

important. It can be very useful to all and I know the judiciary believe

:34:09.:34:11.

it could be a good tool but it is important that we have an informed

:34:12.:34:20.

decision on and the result of guilty pleas online is an obvious one in

:34:21.:34:24.

terms of that. Similarly we need to make sure that when there are

:34:25.:34:27.

virtual hearings taking place there is often a very good case of it but

:34:28.:34:33.

it shouldn't drift in it to being a default position. You do not have

:34:34.:34:36.

that for a trial but you can think of other forms of interlocutory

:34:37.:34:40.

proceedings as well aware that could be appropriate and we need to make

:34:41.:34:45.

sure we do not have too broad a brush approach to that but I think

:34:46.:34:48.

the principle is good and we do not have any problem with it. Looking

:34:49.:34:53.

again at some of the remaining matters, chapter eight, the whole

:34:54.:34:57.

question of dealing with the abuse of the situation with litigants in

:34:58.:35:01.

person and family cases and I think the cases accepted across the piece.

:35:02.:35:05.

It has worked well in the criminal jurisdiction for many years now and

:35:06.:35:09.

I hope when we set up the system in regulations as to how this works

:35:10.:35:12.

there won't be an attempt to overcomplicate or engineer it, if I

:35:13.:35:16.

would urge my right honourable friend to take as far as possible

:35:17.:35:20.

the criminal system to lifted across with adjustments that would seem to

:35:21.:35:23.

be a sensible weight and a point that has been made by practitioners

:35:24.:35:27.

is when advocates are asked to take this on under half of the court,

:35:28.:35:30.

into effect, they take on what is often a very heavy burden because

:35:31.:35:34.

the instructions can be detailed and complex and in my experience in

:35:35.:35:37.

these kind of cases they will frequently change as well by the

:35:38.:35:48.

nature of the person you are dealing with and so it is not an easy task.

:35:49.:35:51.

I hope therefore that the rates of remuneration will not be any worse

:35:52.:35:53.

than you get in the criminal jurisdiction. We want the people

:35:54.:35:55.

undertaking this work. Judicial appointments we have referred to and

:35:56.:35:58.

I think that is important. That it is also important that we bear in

:35:59.:36:01.

mind that leadership roles do need to be recognised, given the

:36:02.:36:04.

difficulty that we are having at the moment in recruiting proper High

:36:05.:36:11.

Court judges. Moving then onto the whole question of part five and

:36:12.:36:15.

whiplash, I don't think we can pretend that there is not an issue,

:36:16.:36:19.

and I will be finishing now, this is the fine a point upon which the

:36:20.:36:22.

select committee is already as evidence and we will want to take

:36:23.:36:27.

some more. They think no one can reasonably pretend there is not an

:36:28.:36:30.

issue around whiplash. There are disputes as to the strength of the

:36:31.:36:35.

evidence and that was the result of the heroes that we had. I'm glad the

:36:36.:36:39.

government has moved to a tariff system rather than an outright

:36:40.:36:43.

prohibition on general damages and I think there is some devil in the

:36:44.:36:46.

detail that we may need to consider as we go along. It is around the

:36:47.:36:51.

definition of what whiplash is, within clause 61 and the subclauses

:36:52.:36:57.

and also at the moment there is a tariff system for breach of

:36:58.:37:02.

statutory duty. One can, of course, and practitioners have raised this

:37:03.:37:05.

with me, envisage a number of circumstances in which it is

:37:06.:37:09.

possible to play both negligence and breach of statutory duty as

:37:10.:37:12.

alternatives, and it might be self-defeating if actually we get a

:37:13.:37:16.

sort of an industry in which people seek always to put in an alternative

:37:17.:37:20.

head of claim to take it immediately out of the pure negligence category.

:37:21.:37:25.

Some careful drafting many to be considered to look at the practical

:37:26.:37:30.

effects as far as that is concerned and above all we also need not to

:37:31.:37:35.

allow this to cause us to take our eye off the ball about the abuse of

:37:36.:37:40.

claims management companies. There is work already being done between

:37:41.:37:44.

the ministry and the Commissioner 's office but a lot of problems stems

:37:45.:37:49.

from the claims management companies so on that basis I wish the bill

:37:50.:37:53.

well and it is an important and valuable bill and I am sure there

:37:54.:37:56.

will be lively and constructive debate going forward and I think

:37:57.:37:59.

myself and other members of the select committee will as appropriate

:38:00.:38:03.

endeavour to assist the government in order to make a good bill better

:38:04.:38:06.

and I wish you well in its passage through the house. In order to be

:38:07.:38:11.

helpful to members we have 19 members wishing to speak, and when

:38:12.:38:17.

we worked that out just roughly, if people can respect themselves to

:38:18.:38:20.

about ten minutes it shouldn't be necessary to put any time limits on.

:38:21.:38:27.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I had assumed that I would be summing up for the

:38:28.:38:31.

SNP at the end of the debate. Would that be OK with the chair?

:38:32.:38:36.

Absolutely fine if he wants to resume his seat! Harriet Harman.

:38:37.:38:54.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This bill gives the house, the

:38:55.:38:58.

Secretary of State, and her prisons minister, the chance to do something

:38:59.:39:01.

which should have been done a long time ago, but which is now urgent.

:39:02.:39:07.

That is to end the death toll of suicidal mentally ill people who

:39:08.:39:11.

take their own lives in our prisons. When the state takes someone into

:39:12.:39:15.

custody we have a duty to keep them safe. Their life becomes our

:39:16.:39:21.

responsibility, and yet prisons are not a place of safety. Last year 12

:39:22.:39:25.

women and 107 men took their own lives while in prison in the custody

:39:26.:39:32.

of the state. The build this government has brought forward

:39:33.:39:35.

affords us the important opportunity to change the law to prevent these

:39:36.:39:40.

tragic deaths and we must seize that opportunity because the problem is

:39:41.:39:46.

urgent and it is growing. We all know the issue of prison reform is

:39:47.:39:50.

not one which brings people out onto the streets or which tops the agenda

:39:51.:39:54.

at election time and unfortunately I wish I could agree with the

:39:55.:39:58.

honourable member who has just spoken, much of which I did agree

:39:59.:40:04.

with him, the chair of the Justice select committee, but when I think

:40:05.:40:08.

it rises up the agenda it is usually not in the cause of liberalising

:40:09.:40:12.

prison regimes but because of demands to make them more Draconian

:40:13.:40:15.

and that makes the job of the Secretary of State and her prisons

:40:16.:40:22.

Minister in any governor -- the government particularly challenging,

:40:23.:40:25.

which is why where it is possible cross-party approach to this is

:40:26.:40:28.

important and why the committee which I have the honour to chair,

:40:29.:40:32.

the joint committee on human rights, which is both cross-party and

:40:33.:40:36.

comprised of members from both this house the House of Lords is

:40:37.:40:40.

conducting an enquiry into suicides in prison.

:40:41.:40:52.

As Mark Saunders, the father of Dean, told committee earlier this

:40:53.:40:59.

month, we don't have capital punishment in this country, yet,

:41:00.:41:04.

when Dean was sent to Chelmsford prison, he was sentenced to death.

:41:05.:41:09.

So, too, it was to die Watlington, whose mother in arms came to

:41:10.:41:15.

Parliament to give evidence to our committee. -- Diane. She set fire to

:41:16.:41:28.

a mattress, was sent to Peterborough prison had to go live. The tragedy

:41:29.:41:33.

of suicide in prison is not new. As the Government acknowledges, it is

:41:34.:41:37.

worsening. Last year, the number of self inflicted death rose by 32%. It

:41:38.:41:44.

is not that this is a new problem, or even one where no one knows what

:41:45.:41:49.

to do. There have, over the years, been numerous weighty reports, which

:41:50.:41:54.

members of this house, members of the House of Lords, judges and many

:41:55.:41:58.

others have contributed to, which have analysed the problems and

:41:59.:42:06.

mapped out solutions. Successive governments have welcomed their

:42:07.:42:10.

proposals, changed policy, a huge new guidelines, but nothing changes

:42:11.:42:17.

except the death toll, which rises. In 1991, we had the wool trouble. In

:42:18.:42:26.

2007, the Corston report. -- Wolf Report. The Bradley report Adalat

:42:27.:42:31.

Andy Harris reports. It's just that we don't -- it is not what we don't

:42:32.:42:37.

know what to do, it's just that we haven't done it. There's no point in

:42:38.:42:42.

having more reviews on new policies or guidance. What is needed is to

:42:43.:42:45.

make sure the changes we all know are needed actually happen in

:42:46.:42:52.

practice. For that to happen, what is needed is a legal framework that

:42:53.:42:58.

will ensure the necessary changes take place because they are required

:42:59.:43:05.

by statute. Reports and guidance, and white papers are not

:43:06.:43:13.

enforceable. And are not... The war is. This is the opportunity to boot

:43:14.:43:19.

into law the changes required. -- law. -- put into law. Because this

:43:20.:43:29.

bill is before we have now, I ask you didn't consider a of new clauses

:43:30.:43:37.

in his in order to put into law the following. There should be a legal

:43:38.:43:41.

maximum of four the number of prisoners at prison officer. When

:43:42.:43:45.

there is not enough staff, sometimes not just two prison officers on a

:43:46.:43:49.

wing of 150 prisoners will stop prisoners remain locked in their

:43:50.:43:53.

cells, medical appointments and educational sessions are missed.

:43:54.:43:57.

They don't get to see the nurse for their medication. Call girl and

:43:58.:44:03.

answers, prison officers then have the time to unlock them for

:44:04.:44:06.

exercise, let alone sit down and get to know the prisoners and, in the

:44:07.:44:11.

vacuum, the worst of the prisoners take charge. Staff become the moral

:44:12.:44:21.

light and defensive, prisoners are at risk. The most vulnerable at

:44:22.:44:25.

risk. You can copy and other people going to prison or the increased the

:44:26.:44:29.

number of prison officers. What the Government has been doing is cutting

:44:30.:44:37.

the number of prison officers while prisoners increase. You can see a

:44:38.:44:42.

clear correlation and in the falling number of prison officers and the

:44:43.:44:47.

high number of prison suicides. I have put the graph 18 week just now,

:44:48.:44:59.

which shows it very clearly. -- graph on a tweet. Unless this

:45:00.:45:04.

changes, death will rise. We need to boot a maximum prison to prison

:45:05.:45:09.

officer ratio. Secondly, a legal maximum time a prisoner can be kept

:45:10.:45:13.

in SL. The governments agree that should be a maximum time prisoners

:45:14.:45:22.

should be locked in their cells. -- cell. It should happen but it

:45:23.:45:26.

doesn't. A legal obligation is required to make sure it does. A

:45:27.:45:29.

legal obligation for the prison service to make sure that each young

:45:30.:45:34.

person, prisoner or adult prisoner with mental health problems has a

:45:35.:45:38.

key worker, whether it's a prison officer or someone else. What

:45:39.:45:42.

matters is that there's an individual the cake was on the

:45:43.:45:45.

ability to bring together all the information from the dagger. -- an

:45:46.:45:58.

individual to bring the information together. Unless it's in the bill,

:45:59.:46:01.

it won't happen. It will remain nothing more than a good intention.

:46:02.:46:06.

Next, unless there's a specified reason that it should be the case,

:46:07.:46:14.

the relatives of a suicidal prisoner should be informed of and invited to

:46:15.:46:24.

take part in the safety reviews. ACCTs. The prisoner should be care

:46:25.:46:31.

about the nose. The family of Dean Saunders says, far from being given

:46:32.:46:34.

the jams to contribute to the measures to be enslaved, it wasn't

:46:35.:46:41.

until the inquest -- the chance to keep him safe. There had been a

:46:42.:46:48.

reviews conducted by Steph who didn't know Dean or anything about

:46:49.:46:54.

him. -- staff. Next, a legal obligation to ensure all young

:46:55.:46:57.

offenders and suicidal prisoners should be able to call a specified

:46:58.:47:02.

ad approved member of their family. One of the most frightening thing is

:47:03.:47:08.

for a prisoner who is suffering the misery and their mental illness is

:47:09.:47:12.

being out of pot with their family. A gas grid, confused, mentally ill

:47:13.:47:23.

prisoner. -- out of touch. Can stand, waiting for a phone call,

:47:24.:47:28.

find their way through numbers. Then technology is perfectly balanced

:47:29.:47:31.

enough now to have suicidal prisoners able to call home. Next,

:47:32.:47:38.

where a prison any to be transferred to a mental hospital, then she'd be

:47:39.:47:45.

a legal maximum time limit between the transfer. -- they are issued B.

:47:46.:47:49.

If they are so ill they can stay in prison, that must happen right away.

:47:50.:47:58.

-- they should be. Under the mental health guidance, that should be no

:47:59.:48:02.

more than 14 days, but it often takes many months. That maximum time

:48:03.:48:09.

limit should be laid down in all. -- law. If the minister said the six

:48:10.:48:14.

things are too detailed and specific for law, I would say, look at the

:48:15.:48:20.

law that apply to education, that apply to health. You will find their

:48:21.:48:29.

legal position for -- provision for ratios, time limits, health

:48:30.:48:33.

treatment. If it's good enough for education and the health service,

:48:34.:48:37.

why not for our prisoners? If the Minister said that these issues

:48:38.:48:43.

don't need to be in law all they can, or already in guidance, I

:48:44.:48:48.

say... They could be in guidance, I say we've done that over and over

:48:49.:48:52.

again and it hasn't worked. Now it's time it must be put into law. If the

:48:53.:48:58.

Minister said these issues are more suitable for regulations and being

:48:59.:49:03.

on the face of the bill, I'm sure I would have no objection to that.

:49:04.:49:07.

Whether they are in primary or secondary legislation is not what

:49:08.:49:10.

matters. What matters is that they should be grouped into law. I never

:49:11.:49:16.

exactly what his civil servants will say when he goes back to his

:49:17.:49:22.

apartment. Label saying it is unnecessary. All they will say it

:49:23.:49:31.

can't be done. I would argue -- may well say. -- all they will say.

:49:32.:49:36.

Being a minister is a great responsibility and relates. I know

:49:37.:49:39.

he's committed to his ministerial role, then I have key will resist

:49:40.:49:45.

the voices that will urge him to do no more than provide over this

:49:46.:49:52.

wretched status quo. I ask the house to help the Minister do what needs

:49:53.:49:57.

to be done by putting these proposed new clauses into the bill. Nothing

:49:58.:50:04.

will bring back Dean Saunders and Diane Watlington, whose heartbroken

:50:05.:50:07.

families gave evidence to Archimedes. Or any of the -- are

:50:08.:50:20.

committees. We, in this house, have the chance to make this Bill Lee

:50:21.:50:25.

Jenning point where we start costing lives. -- where are we stop costing

:50:26.:50:35.

lives. He has an opportunity to make a difference and save lives. I hope

:50:36.:50:40.

he will see that Chen 's and we must make sure he does. -- chance. I

:50:41.:50:51.

congratulate the ministers on putting forward this point and I

:50:52.:50:55.

very much appreciated the informative breathing and technology

:50:56.:50:58.

demonstrations organised by my honourable friend for North East

:50:59.:51:04.

Hertfordshire on the proposed re-forms. They were very helpful. On

:51:05.:51:12.

many points of litigation policy, it moves in a pragmatic way. If I have

:51:13.:51:17.

any overall concerns, they don't relate to general content, but we

:51:18.:51:22.

need to give fuller context to some of its clauses and this I intend to

:51:23.:51:26.

do with a view proposals. On whiplash, we need to keep in mind

:51:27.:51:32.

that the proposals in part five of a policy held in 2010 to reduce a

:51:33.:51:37.

compensation culture that has had a detrimental impact on our society.

:51:38.:51:46.

In MOJ questions in March and today, it seems to question the existence

:51:47.:51:50.

of compensation culture. Frankly, this was an issue which I thought we

:51:51.:51:54.

had positively proven by the time of the last act in 2012, but it seems

:51:55.:51:59.

the issue now is to be re-explained. To start, I would point out that you

:52:00.:52:05.

will notice my honourable friend for Cambridgeshire pointed out earlier

:52:06.:52:11.

that, hello accidents have fallen by 25 design, claims have increased by

:52:12.:52:16.

one third. -- 25%. Incremental measures aimed at reversing this

:52:17.:52:22.

trend. The key problem originated from the dynamic created by the

:52:23.:52:26.

no-win, no fee provisions of Labour's access to justice act 1989,

:52:27.:52:33.

which created an unreal marketplace. Cutting a long story short, by the

:52:34.:52:38.

workings of Labour's act, these have become detached. This is because the

:52:39.:52:42.

client would never directly had to pay any of the fees. So, it followed

:52:43.:52:46.

that they would not care what those these were. Stand-by claims farmers

:52:47.:52:52.

and aggressive gold collars. This was need a further example of Labour

:52:53.:52:56.

supporting a something for nothing system. -- cold callers. To counter

:52:57.:53:08.

this, we ended the accountability of success fees and prevented premiums

:53:09.:53:12.

from the defendant. We moved onto referral fees and addressing cold

:53:13.:53:18.

calling by Agence. We also toughened our care claims handlers. The

:53:19.:53:25.

changes were to reduce insurance premiums by 25%, however it is vital

:53:26.:53:30.

to keep an overall picture of what they congregated situation. For

:53:31.:53:35.

instant, it is considered by the ABI that a lot of whiplash claims are

:53:36.:53:44.

fraudulent. The fraud of figure used at the time was over 5%. I would be

:53:45.:53:49.

interested to hear from the Minister said he believes that insurers are

:53:50.:53:52.

prosecutors have now got the message on this and have opted their game on

:53:53.:53:57.

taking more fraudsters to court. -- upped. I don't think cold calling

:53:58.:54:03.

has been resolved and I want to hear from the Minister whether he has

:54:04.:54:06.

further bosom in this regard. Another important aspect is the

:54:07.:54:11.

small claims and personal injury cases, which is frankly well out of

:54:12.:54:15.

date. All those complaining at the proposals, I would say that this

:54:16.:54:19.

measure is being taken up now, rather than when it was first

:54:20.:54:23.

considered, around 2012, and that shows how God of the Government has

:54:24.:54:29.

been to take one step at a time. I fully support the governments's

:54:30.:54:34.

proposal to increase the RCA limit to ?5,000, including more thoughts

:54:35.:54:40.

before cases are taking. Could the Minister please say whether this

:54:41.:54:43.

would be a requirement for consideration as it is general Small

:54:44.:54:46.

Claims Court back with the use of the tariff not require this? The

:54:47.:54:55.

other injury claims are from ?1000 to only ?2000 rather than ?5,000. My

:54:56.:55:00.

understanding was that if only inflation were to be taken into

:55:01.:55:04.

account, the limit would increase to about ?3000. I appreciate that the

:55:05.:55:09.

change to the small claims limit is a matter for the very legislation

:55:10.:55:13.

rather than in this Bill, there I had the Government might reconsider

:55:14.:55:17.

this level. I recall putting up the general Small Claims Court from

:55:18.:55:25.

?5,000 to ?10,000 and what was said by businesses -- small claims limit.

:55:26.:55:30.

Has been good in practice. I would not attack it to seriously injured

:55:31.:55:34.

accident survivors who need public and legal help, but rather more to

:55:35.:55:38.

the matter of whiplash claims which are of an injuried oration of less

:55:39.:55:42.

than two years and arguably waved through to settlement by insurers

:55:43.:55:46.

who don't want because all other of dealing with each small claim.

:55:47.:55:52.

The average compensation for a six-month injury claim is just under

:55:53.:56:03.

?2000. I support the injury duration proposal but for it not to be taken

:56:04.:56:06.

advantage of their needs to be a better system for organising medical

:56:07.:56:10.

reports. At the moment offers to settle can be made without medical

:56:11.:56:14.

reports, even though in 2014 changes were made to discourage the

:56:15.:56:18.

practice. From now on there will be a ban on settling without medical

:56:19.:56:23.

evidence which I think is to be welcomed. Another related area

:56:24.:56:27.

contributing to the increase in insurance premiums relates to free

:56:28.:56:36.

hire cars loaned out to accident victims. If the government looking

:56:37.:56:41.

at this aspect? The overall saving for these proposals is ?40 per year

:56:42.:56:46.

but this message has been somewhat dilutive by insurers. They are

:56:47.:56:52.

saying that the proposed reduction to -0.75% of the discount rate is

:56:53.:56:57.

applicable to personal injury lump sum payments will result in a

:56:58.:57:01.

significant increase in premium amounts. Insurers are saying this

:57:02.:57:06.

could be up to ?75. I appreciate that the law, not the Lord

:57:07.:57:10.

Chancellor, sets the discount am pleased to see that the government

:57:11.:57:13.

will now consult on and in -- alternative framework but one

:57:14.:57:16.

wonders why the consultation could not have been handled together with

:57:17.:57:19.

the bill. Having said that it is certainly the case that with this

:57:20.:57:23.

bill the government is continuing the increment a bull fight back

:57:24.:57:26.

against compensation culture and I think that is a very good thing. I

:57:27.:57:33.

understand the point is the honourable member is making about

:57:34.:57:36.

the whiplash culture. Does he not appreciate there is an area that the

:57:37.:57:41.

bill does not cover, which is those rogue solicitors who pursue false

:57:42.:57:46.

claims against individuals who have not been involved in car accidents,

:57:47.:57:50.

claiming that they have, and that they had injured individuals, and

:57:51.:57:56.

that it is virtually impossible, like an elderly couple in my

:57:57.:58:00.

constituency, who were harassed therapy, and although there was no

:58:01.:58:03.

evidence of injury the solicitor pursued became and the court threw

:58:04.:58:07.

it out and the solicitors regulatory authority would look at death toll.

:58:08.:58:13.

-- pursue the claim. I agree that Ford is an important part of the

:58:14.:58:16.

overall aspect and the criminal site is not within the bill. I asked the

:58:17.:58:20.

minister earlier if he could address that issue. At the time that was

:58:21.:58:28.

considered that up to 7% of claims are fraudulent and I have now seen

:58:29.:58:31.

that may be less than 1%. That would actually show that has been a

:58:32.:58:35.

dramatic improvement but I would be interested to hear the government

:58:36.:58:37.

view as to whether they accent that and whether they -- what they will

:58:38.:58:42.

do about the 1% if it is that figure. The bill also has a wide

:58:43.:58:46.

variety of proposals in terms of case management and the operation of

:58:47.:58:49.

the courts, all of which taken together well, I believe, make for a

:58:50.:58:53.

much more effective and modern and technology friendly system. Of

:58:54.:58:56.

course the fact that the government is proposing to invest ?1 billion in

:58:57.:59:01.

the courts will do much to assure they remain world-class. There will

:59:02.:59:05.

be less courts but a much better service, I understand by 2022. I

:59:06.:59:09.

hope that some of this money will be used to simplify processes and

:59:10.:59:13.

facilitate nonlawyers ability to navigate the system. Could the

:59:14.:59:16.

minister please give an indication of where the department has got to

:59:17.:59:20.

in terms of using technology to assist litigants in person. In the

:59:21.:59:24.

past technology was often disregarded because it was felt that

:59:25.:59:29.

people did not see its use as delivering good justice as turning

:59:30.:59:33.

up in person. I suggest that this view, particularly with young

:59:34.:59:37.

people, is very out of date. We are moving to a situation where most

:59:38.:59:38.

crime is likely carried out online crime is likely carried out online

:59:39.:59:43.

so I welcome proposals such as to have automatic online convictions

:59:44.:59:47.

with statutory standard penalties for a few criminal offences. I hope

:59:48.:59:51.

this will be shortly reviewed, with the aim of extending the range of

:59:52.:59:54.

offences, likewise enabling claimants to recover money owed

:59:55.:00:01.

entirely online up to ?25,000 will save time and certainly help small

:00:02.:00:04.

businesses. The extension of the use of virtual hearings is to be

:00:05.:00:09.

commended in terms of protecting the vulnerable from those accused of

:00:10.:00:13.

certain crimes, including rape, and also in terms of making justice and

:00:14.:00:17.

efficient. How much more efficient to have police and electronically

:00:18.:00:21.

brought in from the stations online rather than to have them hanging

:00:22.:00:23.

around in court waiting for cases with nothing else to do. Having said

:00:24.:00:28.

that we need good procedural Wilshere to keep the trial is fair,

:00:29.:00:33.

I appreciate, and in some ways the technology is still being developed.

:00:34.:00:36.

I was speaking recently to a criminal district judge who said

:00:37.:00:40.

that he was all in favour of court cameras, except when they didn't

:00:41.:00:44.

work, which was all too frequent for his liking. Apparently private

:00:45.:00:48.

companies who dealt with bridging linkups act strictly to timetables

:00:49.:00:52.

that sometimes do not tie in with the court timings. Are these types

:00:53.:00:55.

of practical issues now going to be ironed out? Of course this will be

:00:56.:01:00.

even more relevant as the act proposes that criminal cases could

:01:01.:01:04.

be conducted virtually, that is where all court participants join

:01:05.:01:08.

the hearing through a live link. The proposal to balance the tech

:01:09.:01:11.

developments with an ability for the public and media tribute virtual

:01:12.:01:15.

courts online is a good safeguard, and a modern reassertion of the old

:01:16.:01:19.

principle that justice needs to be seen to be done. Finally I note that

:01:20.:01:26.

the proposals to reorganise the magistracy and make it a unified

:01:27.:01:30.

judiciary, this is, I believe, exactly right and will provide a

:01:31.:01:35.

similar adaptability when the County Courts were unified and it will

:01:36.:01:39.

actually enhance the concept of the magistrate as a nationally qualified

:01:40.:01:43.

judge, rather than a person tied to a particular bench. I do think that

:01:44.:01:49.

this is a bill that will do much to move our justice system into modern

:01:50.:01:55.

ways of organisation and efficiency. I just want to focus on a number of

:01:56.:02:01.

points in the bill and as my honourable friend for Leeds East

:02:02.:02:04.

said in his opening remarks, the Labour Party will not oppose the

:02:05.:02:07.

bill but that does not mean that we cannot take steps to try and improve

:02:08.:02:11.

from ministers as to what the bill from ministers as to what the bill

:02:12.:02:15.

means in practice, and what the impact of the bill 's provisions

:02:16.:02:21.

mean in practice because like the minister I support the aims of

:02:22.:02:26.

clause one of the bill which says prison is to protect the public,

:02:27.:02:30.

rehabilitate and reform offenders and prepare prisoners for life

:02:31.:02:33.

outside prison and maintain an environment that is safe and secure

:02:34.:02:37.

and nobody can disagree with those objectives, but we do, Madam Deputy

:02:38.:02:42.

Speaker, as indeed my right honourable friend for Camberwell and

:02:43.:02:46.

Peckham said in an excellent speech, there are a number of challenges

:02:47.:02:49.

that the current prison system faces, which are not challenges that

:02:50.:02:55.

have come from nowhere, they have come from deliberate decisions from

:02:56.:02:59.

government policy which the bill has an opportunity to at least look at

:03:00.:03:04.

and potentially rectify. My right honourable friend covered some of

:03:05.:03:08.

the statistics but they are worthy of repetition because we do have a

:03:09.:03:13.

situation whereby now 76 of the prisons in the state, 60%, are

:03:14.:03:19.

overcrowded, and deemed overcrowded by the prisons inspector. We have a

:03:20.:03:22.

position whereby we have an increase of 39% in the number of deaths in

:03:23.:03:26.

prison custody in the last year. We have an increase of 32% in

:03:27.:03:34.

self-inflicted deaths, and we have a massive increase of 22% in the

:03:35.:03:39.

number of self harm incidents reported. We have an increase in the

:03:40.:03:45.

number of assaults on staff and on fellow prisoners by prisoner. If we

:03:46.:03:51.

have an increase in the number of psychoactive substances that have

:03:52.:03:55.

been found in prison. We have an increase in the number of mobile

:03:56.:03:57.

phones that have been found in prison and are therefore getting

:03:58.:04:02.

into prison and we have sadly, as has been mentioned by my honourable

:04:03.:04:07.

friend, a reduction in the number of prison officers by 6335, 20 6% of

:04:08.:04:14.

prison officers falling in their last seven years. These facts do

:04:15.:04:22.

have, in my view, a link. The fact that we have a smaller number of

:04:23.:04:26.

prison officers and we have the same number of prisoners in heaven --

:04:27.:04:29.

prison, and we had prisoners who for a range of reasons are more

:04:30.:04:33.

difficult and more challenging and have been convicted very often a

:04:34.:04:37.

more violent offences means that impact of the prison officer numbers

:04:38.:04:41.

on those statistics is real and effective. I do not object, in fact

:04:42.:04:46.

I support the aims of clause one of the bill, I think we do need to look

:04:47.:04:51.

at what it means in practice and look to have a white Paper in

:04:52.:04:55.

practice links to those objectives. My right honourable friend for

:04:56.:04:59.

Camberwell and Peckham in that excellent speech has made some very

:05:00.:05:04.

positive suggestions in relation to clause one. Timings in cell are

:05:05.:05:08.

extremely important. We need to look at how we link in and establish

:05:09.:05:12.

mechanisms to recognise and support people who have mental health

:05:13.:05:17.

problems. I would add to her list one of family link and distance from

:05:18.:05:22.

home. In the last 12 months I have had to constituency cases, never

:05:23.:05:26.

mind anything else through being a member of the Justice committee, to

:05:27.:05:30.

constituency cases where constituents of mine from North

:05:31.:05:34.

Wales are in first of all the Isle of Wight, in a prison in the Isle of

:05:35.:05:39.

Wight, and secondly in Norwich. The -- for those who do not know the

:05:40.:05:43.

geography of this, the Isle of Wight is 273 miles from my constituency,

:05:44.:05:48.

11 hours on a train. Knowledge is six hours on a train for my

:05:49.:05:51.

constituency and four point five Hours Drive. -- Norwich. If one of

:05:52.:05:59.

the key purposes is reform and rehabilitation surely contact with

:06:00.:06:02.

family is critical to that achievement. I will give way. And

:06:03.:06:07.

grateful. Will he not agree that those two examples could be

:06:08.:06:13.

replicated, but even worse, when one is dealing with young offenders.

:06:14.:06:17.

There are obviously fewer young offender institution that you often

:06:18.:06:20.

find that youngsters are being passed around in the back of these

:06:21.:06:26.

select boxes for hours and hours and hours after court hours and not get

:06:27.:06:30.

into their final destination ant hill nearly midnight, and that is

:06:31.:06:33.

not a good way to rehabilitate anybody. I support the honourable

:06:34.:06:40.

gentleman 's comments. He will know and I know that these matters are

:06:41.:06:44.

not easy to solve. They are difficult challenges to solve. Key

:06:45.:06:47.

to the debate today is what can we do in relation to the bill to

:06:48.:06:51.

perhaps potentially, as my right honourable friend has said, and the

:06:52.:06:57.

question of family into part of the purpose, the statutory back-up of

:06:58.:07:01.

the bill. I was prisons Minister for two years and one month and I know

:07:02.:07:02.

it is difficult. It is a difficult job and difficult policy

:07:03.:07:28.

to change. There are opportunities for us to look at it. In a time that

:07:29.:07:32.

we have I hope the Minister will reflect on these matters steering

:07:33.:07:34.

committee and look at how we can strengthen the objective is to

:07:35.:07:36.

achieve the objectives of the clause with the actions that are taken. I

:07:37.:07:39.

speak now on behalf of the Justice committee and I welcome the fact

:07:40.:07:42.

that the inspectorate is clause two of the bill is being put on a

:07:43.:07:44.

statutory footing. We recognise that the role in visiting places of

:07:45.:07:46.

detention is now a positive development and we recognise and

:07:47.:07:48.

support that the Chief inspector will have regard to the new

:07:49.:07:51.

statutory purpose in prison and I particularly welcome the fact that

:07:52.:07:53.

the government has to respond to the Chief inspectors recommendation

:07:54.:07:55.

within 28 days if urgent or within 90 days with a general expects in

:07:56.:07:58.

and that we have some scrutiny of what those inspections powers are. I

:07:59.:08:04.

welcome the fact that the prisons and probation ombudsman will also be

:08:05.:08:11.

put on a statutory footing and the clause is between four and 20 do

:08:12.:08:14.

that in an effective way. The minister needs to take into account

:08:15.:08:18.

the fact that the Justice committee has welcomed that and I also put

:08:19.:08:24.

down an aspect of challenge that the government accepted the committee

:08:25.:08:31.

recommendation in finalising the protocol on HMI P inspectorate, that

:08:32.:08:35.

it would look at that protocol and produce a final protocol before this

:08:36.:08:41.

bill was published in second reading and the committee was consulted in

:08:42.:08:44.

January on draft protocol but as far as I am aware so far not one final

:08:45.:08:49.

protocol has been agreed and not a final protocol has been published,

:08:50.:08:54.

so I worked again in this developing discussion say that I welcome the

:08:55.:08:57.

statutory footing but I think it is important that we have publication

:08:58.:09:03.

of that protocol at an early stage so that we can look at that and

:09:04.:09:09.

develop it accordingly. The protocol the Justice committee recommended

:09:10.:09:12.

was over when you go on the relationship between the

:09:13.:09:14.

inspectorate and the Ministry of Justice and it has not yet been

:09:15.:09:18.

published. The draft has been published but we need to see in the

:09:19.:09:21.

context of this debate what the relationship is.

:09:22.:09:25.

I also just want to, given the time, talk a little bit about whiplash

:09:26.:09:31.

because the Justice Committee again... This is a challenge for the

:09:32.:09:35.

Minister and four Government, the Justice Committee listened to the

:09:36.:09:42.

committee of insurers and the Association of legal professionals

:09:43.:09:45.

dealing with whiplash cases. I have the say we were not convinced of the

:09:46.:09:52.

governments's case to date. So I'm convinced where we of the

:09:53.:09:54.

governments's case that we have now established a follow-up enquiry

:09:55.:09:58.

which the Minister will have undoubtedly seen. This will call for

:09:59.:10:07.

evidence on whiplash. We have as for now a full enquiry by the Justice

:10:08.:10:10.

Committee with terms of reference and looking at the definitions of

:10:11.:10:15.

whiplash and the prevalence of road traffic accidents with whiplash

:10:16.:10:20.

related claims. Whether or not the governments's fraudulent whiplash

:10:21.:10:24.

claims claims that up, whether they will regulate -- stack up. And

:10:25.:10:33.

particularly to look at the impact of raising the small claims limit to

:10:34.:10:39.

?5,000 for road traffic accidents/ small claims. While this is not in

:10:40.:10:50.

the bill. Also, the role of claims management companies, which have not

:10:51.:10:53.

really been torched on to date. The challenge for the Minister again is

:10:54.:11:02.

when the committee and report stage that rack touched on. Hopefully

:11:03.:11:05.

influencing that debate looking at these matters, the Minister as to

:11:06.:11:12.

come forward and convince this house that the policy he is bringing

:11:13.:11:16.

forward on a cross-party basis with the Justice Committee meet those

:11:17.:11:18.

objectives because I'm still concerned that the claims the

:11:19.:11:21.

Government has made about savings being passed on to motorists and

:11:22.:11:26.

about the level of fraud in the system are not yet tested to the

:11:27.:11:31.

extent of my satisfaction or indeed by the fact the Justice Committee is

:11:32.:11:34.

looking at these matters to the cross-party Justice Committee which,

:11:35.:11:39.

remember, has a conservative majority in it. The consultation

:11:40.:11:43.

paper attached to this also sets out no rationales at all from employment

:11:44.:11:49.

injuries and building reform of Will lash claims. -- whiplash. They stick

:11:50.:11:55.

to the Chancellor last week and was told that the employment injury

:11:56.:12:01.

aspect would be dealt with by SI at the completion of measures in this

:12:02.:12:09.

bill by whiplash. The aspect of whiplash in the bill is the carrot

:12:10.:12:12.

and the ability for the judge to enhance that by 20%. There is a

:12:13.:12:17.

perfectly separate secondary legislation route for which the

:12:18.:12:25.

small claims limit is raised or can be reduced. -- tariff. It is not in

:12:26.:12:29.

this case. I have said to the Minister that they are not in the

:12:30.:12:36.

bill, there's aspect, but a sense they are linked any sense at the

:12:37.:12:39.

Government's consideration of whiplash and you pretty whiplash

:12:40.:12:44.

will be linked in terms of approach to the... The wind of raising the

:12:45.:12:56.

threshold for small claims limit 's is that it relates ?5,000 full load

:12:57.:13:05.

traffic whiplash related claims. -- for road traffic. And then it is

:13:06.:13:10.

?2000. What I'm saying is that the Justice Committee believes those two

:13:11.:13:14.

matters still have a tangential link and that is why the Justice

:13:15.:13:19.

Committee is looking at these provisions for whiplash as part of

:13:20.:13:23.

the year in, it is linked into that the consideration of the employment

:13:24.:13:26.

levels because they are very much aware that, as well as the potential

:13:27.:13:29.

examination of the governments's case for whiplash, there needs to

:13:30.:13:34.

be, at the same time, an examination of the governments's case for

:13:35.:13:38.

industrial injuries and employment injuries. There are a myriad of

:13:39.:13:45.

cases. I don't think now is the time, I'll do them at a later date,

:13:46.:13:49.

but there are a myriad number of cases where industrial injury claims

:13:50.:13:53.

would be detrimental the impacted by the change in the limit. Whilst that

:13:54.:13:59.

is not directly in the Dell... Well, the Minister doesn't work any things

:14:00.:14:03.

even influence I would again where people in my constituency depend on

:14:04.:14:07.

that level of employment injury support to ensure they get justice

:14:08.:14:12.

at work. --. We will return to that at a later date and the Minister is

:14:13.:14:16.

looking quizzical. You will have an opportunity with my colleagues in

:14:17.:14:20.

the Justice Committee to explain his proposals with those of whiplash in

:14:21.:14:23.

the bill to the Justice Committee in due course. To finalise, I would say

:14:24.:14:29.

this. The bill itself as a direction of travel which I think can be

:14:30.:14:34.

supported and you'd be supported. However, the eve of this Bill is

:14:35.:14:38.

what really matters. There are measures the Government can take to

:14:39.:14:44.

improve the bill, reduce the poor indicators growing in their

:14:45.:14:49.

disparity over the past few years over staffing and the type of

:14:50.:14:52.

measures looking at the issues my right honourable friend and those at

:14:53.:14:57.

the Justice Committee seeks the governments to look at a game. --

:14:58.:15:05.

again. Thank you. They say what a great pleasure it is to follow on

:15:06.:15:09.

from the honourable gentleman who speaks with considerable authority

:15:10.:15:13.

when he speaks in this house. May I also start off with repairing

:15:14.:15:18.

members to -- referring members to the interest that I'm now a

:15:19.:15:24.

practising solicitor all. I welcome this Bill. I firmly believe that we

:15:25.:15:30.

have one of the finest if not the finest legal systems in the world. I

:15:31.:15:34.

think the measures that are putting this Bill will ensure that we can

:15:35.:15:38.

maintain our prominent position on the global legal system. I would

:15:39.:15:44.

like to start off by making some comments as regard to the court

:15:45.:15:50.

reform proposals. It's important to recognise that, when we talk about

:15:51.:15:56.

access to justice, we don't mean access being in a physical building

:15:57.:16:02.

called a court. That was an argument I had with many colleagues when I

:16:03.:16:07.

was a minister in charge of call and I had to convey the bad news that

:16:08.:16:14.

many courts where to close. -- courts. The member for Huntingdon

:16:15.:16:18.

had to do likewise a few years beforehand. What this bill does is

:16:19.:16:25.

fulfil what we said in that there are different ways of accessing

:16:26.:16:30.

justice and call. -- courts. I always remember what an African

:16:31.:16:34.

justice minister once said to me. He said he wanted to have a justice

:16:35.:16:38.

system in his country whereby the people living in the villages

:16:39.:16:43.

outside the capital city could access justice through their

:16:44.:16:47.

smartphones. The world is moving on and it's good to see that we are

:16:48.:16:51.

keeping pace with technology that goes with it. I particularly welcome

:16:52.:16:55.

parts two and four of the bill, which deal with the court reform

:16:56.:17:01.

measures. In the past, we have concentrated, all the legal system

:17:02.:17:06.

have concentrated rather too much on process and procedure. But I'm very

:17:07.:17:11.

pleased that this Bill puts the court user centre space and ensure

:17:12.:17:17.

that we have a system that is good for them. The changes will mean that

:17:18.:17:23.

the public who use the court will not necessarily mean to -- have to

:17:24.:17:30.

spend huge time, cost or indeed have to spend their time physically

:17:31.:17:34.

waking and hanging around in a court. -- waging. -- waiting. Having

:17:35.:17:48.

hearings where no party is present in the courtroom. They attended by

:17:49.:17:53.

telephone or video conferencing facilities. The provision of

:17:54.:17:59.

evidence by video link is good for victims and witnesses, particularly

:18:00.:18:02.

vulnerable witnesses and it has to be right that we can have prisoners

:18:03.:18:06.

staying in prison from where they give a video evidence, rather than

:18:07.:18:11.

the time, effort and cost of transporting them to court and

:18:12.:18:16.

transporting them back. Which often leads to delay is because they get

:18:17.:18:21.

caught up in traffic delays. Of course, the modern way of having

:18:22.:18:26.

video conferencing facilities means that witnesses can easily give

:18:27.:18:31.

evidence when they are overseas. It also means that lawyers then have to

:18:32.:18:37.

hang around job outside the courtroom, waiting for ever and a

:18:38.:18:40.

day until they get their ten minutes before the judge. For example, for a

:18:41.:18:46.

bail application. What they can now do is that the barristers can do is

:18:47.:18:52.

stay in their offices and the judges in their chambers, and they can

:18:53.:18:56.

simply good a time when they were all speak and they can have their

:18:57.:19:00.

ten minute conversation. And the bail application can go through. The

:19:01.:19:08.

bill proposes that, whether -- where there are low level offences in the

:19:09.:19:11.

majority are, and where offenders are charged with summary only known

:19:12.:19:18.

violent offences, such as not having a TV licence, and where there is a

:19:19.:19:22.

guilty plea, the offenders can be convicted and given standard

:19:23.:19:25.

penalties by use of an online procedure. Effectively, what this

:19:26.:19:31.

means is that people can come from the lottery of their sitting rooms,

:19:32.:19:36.

using their smartphones, deal with access to justice. And deal with

:19:37.:19:41.

these matters online. Of course, it is important to recognise that where

:19:42.:19:50.

people need not guilty then, for them, the majesty of the court still

:19:51.:19:53.

remains and they can have their court cases in the usual way. For

:19:54.:20:00.

civil cases, I welcome the proposal that in civil cases, proclaimed up

:20:01.:20:05.

to ?25,000, there will be simple, online hearings. -- for claims. It

:20:06.:20:13.

is awarded to remember that some cases may have to go online --

:20:14.:20:19.

off-line. I'm therefore pleased that the bill provides for that and I

:20:20.:20:23.

very much hope that, in this surge towards technological advances, we

:20:24.:20:30.

will never keep that option where, for whatever reason, some cases do

:20:31.:20:33.

have duly dealt with in the usual way and they will be done so. We

:20:34.:20:40.

also have, at present, very complex forms, which are full of legal

:20:41.:20:46.

language. They can be very difficult to deal with. I very much hope that,

:20:47.:20:52.

as they used new forms and get online, that the justice system will

:20:53.:20:57.

use the opportunity to make those forms easier and far more

:20:58.:21:04.

user-friendly. I also hope that the Minister will recognise that not

:21:05.:21:10.

everyone uses modern technology. Some people cannot use it. For

:21:11.:21:15.

example, the elderly and some people who are disabled. I hope the

:21:16.:21:20.

minister will be able to give us an assurance wager that, for those

:21:21.:21:24.

people, it will still remain that there was the opportunity to speak

:21:25.:21:32.

by phone to a person to person meeting as necessary because,

:21:33.:21:35.

otherwise, we are denying access to justice for some people. I would

:21:36.:21:41.

also urged the Minister to ensure that the technological advances that

:21:42.:21:45.

we speak of are such that they are not rendered redundant. Very soon.

:21:46.:21:52.

Advances in technology that we have are so vast that millions of pounds

:21:53.:21:59.

spent to date can suddenly be spent on a system that is outdated in a

:22:00.:22:07.

year or two. I very much I that even ensure his civil servants tried to

:22:08.:22:13.

have a technological system which well how Al for easy adaptation to

:22:14.:22:22.

more when and how they arise. -- will allow for. And that I had a

:22:23.:22:26.

good cost. Part four of the bill, along with schedule 15, deals with

:22:27.:22:30.

the judiciary and the judicial appointments commission. There are

:22:31.:22:35.

various references to senior judicial appointments. I wish to

:22:36.:22:40.

make a general point as regards to appointments. To be absolutely

:22:41.:22:47.

clear, I believe, and I think most people do, that all judicial

:22:48.:22:49.

appointments should be made on merit. That is crucial. That being

:22:50.:23:00.

said, it is fair to say that we still need to make serious advances

:23:01.:23:06.

in terms of having more women, more disabled people, more people from

:23:07.:23:09.

ethnic minorities, more people from a variety of backgrounds, who hold

:23:10.:23:16.

senior judicial positions. And I very much hope that the Ministry of

:23:17.:23:24.

Justice and the judiciary and the judicial appointments commission,

:23:25.:23:27.

will ensure that we continue to have a judicial system that is reflective

:23:28.:23:34.

of the country at large. Sadly, there are still people who believe

:23:35.:23:40.

that it is a question of the old boy network as to whether one gets

:23:41.:23:44.

promoted to senior levels. It is a question of whether they belong to

:23:45.:23:49.

the right dining clubs, golf club, whether they went to the right

:23:50.:23:53.

school or the right university. And there are some people who simply

:23:54.:23:57.

don't read full their names for senior positions -- put forward.

:23:58.:24:02.

Because that is what they believe. Of course, much advance has been

:24:03.:24:06.

made but I very much hope we will to persuade the candidates that they

:24:07.:24:10.

should put themselves forward if they do believe that they may not

:24:11.:24:13.

get through because of the old boy network.

:24:14.:24:20.

The I am mindful of time, as far as prisons are concerned I welcome

:24:21.:24:30.

section 21 that allows public communication providers to block the

:24:31.:24:35.

use of unauthorised mobile phones in prisons. Frankly it is absurd that

:24:36.:24:39.

this has not been done earlier, and it is high time that it was done. I

:24:40.:24:46.

also welcome the provisions in section 22 that allow more powers to

:24:47.:24:51.

test for psychoactive substances in prisons so that prison authorities

:24:52.:24:55.

are able to respond quickly to new drugs. In prisons people are put

:24:56.:25:02.

there because they have to be punished. We all recognise that it

:25:03.:25:07.

is important that we have a regime of education and training so that

:25:08.:25:13.

those individuals, when they are outside again, can play a useful

:25:14.:25:18.

role to society. We rightly talk about education and training, but I

:25:19.:25:24.

think we should talk as much about the health of those prisoners.

:25:25.:25:29.

Particularly mental health. Colleagues from both sides of the

:25:30.:25:32.

house had made reference to mental illness and I very much hope that

:25:33.:25:37.

the minister will be able to give us assurances that it is an issue that

:25:38.:25:42.

he will ensure is looked into to ensure that people who are genuinely

:25:43.:25:48.

unwell, and suffering from mental illnesses, get the treatment that

:25:49.:25:53.

they require in prison. I conclude by simply saying that I welcome this

:25:54.:25:59.

bill and I am particularly pleased that notwithstanding some of the

:26:00.:26:03.

differences that we have on the political divide, nonetheless there

:26:04.:26:08.

was much that we agree on, and I wish the bill well as it progresses

:26:09.:26:12.

through to eventual Royal assent. Thank you. I also welcome much of

:26:13.:26:22.

the contents of this bill and I am very pleased to follow the

:26:23.:26:27.

honourable member for North West Cambridgeshire and I particularly

:26:28.:26:30.

endorse the comments he made in relation to judicial diversity. This

:26:31.:26:33.

is a far reaching piece of legislation although as far as

:26:34.:26:36.

prison reform in particular is concerned we have two into quite a

:26:37.:26:40.

lot of the detail from the white Paper because as others have said,

:26:41.:26:44.

the bill is relatively thin and I'm detailed but like others I very much

:26:45.:26:49.

welcome the establishment of a new statutory purpose for prisons and I

:26:50.:26:53.

also hope that as we take the bill through this house and the other

:26:54.:26:57.

place that there will be opportunities to strengthen and

:26:58.:27:01.

extend it. The Prison Reform Trust have suggested that the statutory

:27:02.:27:05.

purpose should make explicit reference to standards of fairness

:27:06.:27:09.

and decency and, given the problems that we face in our prisons today,

:27:10.:27:14.

the exceptional amount of time that prisoners are landing in cells,

:27:15.:27:19.

engaged, not engaged in purposeful activity, the disturbances that have

:27:20.:27:24.

put in prison and staff safety at risk and the appalling mentor health

:27:25.:27:28.

of many of those in our prisons, I very strongly endorse the need for a

:27:29.:27:31.

purpose that captures those elements of fairness and decency. Like many

:27:32.:27:36.

honourable members who have spoken today I expressed particular concern

:27:37.:27:41.

and the need for good mental health care. At least three or 4% of

:27:42.:27:46.

prisoners have a psychotic illness and 1014% a major depressive illness

:27:47.:27:49.

and up to two thirds a personality disorder according to the Royal

:27:50.:27:55.

College of psychiatrists and many prisoners are so unwell that prison

:27:56.:27:58.

is utterly the wrong place to treat them. I have seen this very starkly

:27:59.:28:04.

in handling a constituency case in the last few months, a case that is

:28:05.:28:08.

really showing that the system doesn't work to ensure that

:28:09.:28:13.

prisoners mental health is paramount. It is a case of a young

:28:14.:28:18.

man accused of a very serious offences and who has been on remand

:28:19.:28:22.

in Manchester prison since before Christmas. He is seriously psychotic

:28:23.:28:29.

and prison is probably not the right price for him to have ever been sent

:28:30.:28:35.

to and yet for months on no secure hospital bed has been found where he

:28:36.:28:39.

can be securely and appropriately cared for so I very strongly endorse

:28:40.:28:44.

the call of my right honourable friend from Camberwell and Peckham

:28:45.:28:46.

that we should have statutory time limits in the bill in relation to

:28:47.:28:49.

the length of time that someone who is so unwell could be kept in

:28:50.:28:55.

prison. I think it is a very important measure that we need to

:28:56.:28:58.

take to ensure parity of esteem between mental health and physical

:28:59.:29:02.

health exist in our prisons, as it does more widely in our health care

:29:03.:29:07.

system. We also know that women in custody have a high incidence of

:29:08.:29:10.

mental health problems and this year we mark tenth anniversary of

:29:11.:29:16.

Baroness Corston 's seminal report into women in custody and a real

:29:17.:29:19.

opportunity I think to make a step change in the way the deal with

:29:20.:29:23.

women in the penal system. The Justice Secretary said that she

:29:24.:29:25.

intends to bring forward a strategy in relation to women in the next few

:29:26.:29:29.

weeks and I very much look forward to looking at that and debating with

:29:30.:29:34.

the government. Can I say to ministers, I hope that the

:29:35.:29:37.

government will take this opportunity not simply to build more

:29:38.:29:42.

new women's prisons far from home and too large to provide the right

:29:43.:29:47.

regime for the particular needs of women. Baroness Corston suggested

:29:48.:29:51.

the need for small and local secure units, not prisons, but those that

:29:52.:29:54.

very particularly catered for the needs of women and this is such an

:29:55.:29:59.

important and once in a generation chance for ministers to transform

:30:00.:30:02.

the next gen are -- nature of the women's estate and I hope they will

:30:03.:30:06.

not miss this opportunity. I am also concerned that the government seems

:30:07.:30:12.

intent on new, large male prisons which I understand will have a

:30:13.:30:17.

population of 2000 prisoners but there are evidence of small prisons

:30:18.:30:20.

doing better according to the centre of social justice and the Prison

:30:21.:30:23.

Reform Trust that showed that prisons with fewer than 400

:30:24.:30:26.

prisoners were more likely to form well than those with 800 and the

:30:27.:30:32.

National Audit Office had a 2018 report that showed small prisons had

:30:33.:30:37.

better ratings. What we don't know is whether there is a difference in

:30:38.:30:40.

reoffending rates between small and large prisons and I would be

:30:41.:30:44.

grateful to hear of anyone in the house can enlighten me on that. If

:30:45.:30:47.

we don't have that information can I very strongly urge ministers to

:30:48.:30:50.

conduct a programme of research to understand that. What we do know,

:30:51.:30:57.

and my right honourable friend referred to this in detail is the

:30:58.:31:02.

importance of family contact and incarceration a long way from home

:31:03.:31:04.

naturally makes that more difficult and according to a 2008 study for

:31:05.:31:09.

the Ministry of Justice family contact reduces recidivism by 39%,

:31:10.:31:14.

that is a substantial reduction. A joint report from Her Majesty 's

:31:15.:31:17.

Inspectorate of prisons and the youth Justice board found that boys

:31:18.:31:21.

who suffered from emotional or mental health problems were less

:31:22.:31:24.

likely to usually have a visitor at least once a week from family and

:31:25.:31:28.

friends than those without mental health problems and yet half of

:31:29.:31:32.

women and one quarter of many on remand receive no family visits.

:31:33.:31:37.

Concentrating prisoners in larger prisons further from home, covering

:31:38.:31:41.

large geographical areas will work against family contact which can

:31:42.:31:44.

make such a difference and I will give away. I totally and utterly

:31:45.:31:50.

endorse all of this speech, that sets out so tragically the fact of

:31:51.:31:57.

women in prison and the difficulties of maintaining their family contact

:31:58.:32:02.

and how often their children end up in care, or farmed out to family

:32:03.:32:09.

members, who can't travel the long distance, particular view a Welsh

:32:10.:32:11.

woman and you have to travel into England to get to see your mum in

:32:12.:32:15.

prison and actually damages the family cohesion that we know is so

:32:16.:32:21.

vital in terms of rehabilitation. I completely agree with my honourable

:32:22.:32:25.

friend and we know that in particular for women in custody, it

:32:26.:32:28.

is women who are usually the main carers of children and the

:32:29.:32:30.

consequences can be devastating, not just for those women but for the

:32:31.:32:34.

children who ought to be our paramount consideration. I support

:32:35.:32:40.

calls which have been put forward by the prison rights and care trust

:32:41.:32:43.

among others that it should be a requirement among sentences to

:32:44.:32:47.

specifically ask about provision for the children of parents who are

:32:48.:32:50.

about to be sentenced to custody, particularly to know where they will

:32:51.:32:54.

spend our first night as their parent faces incarceration. Finally

:32:55.:32:58.

on presents, Madam Deputy Speaker, if we're serious about prison reform

:32:59.:33:02.

I believe we have to face the fact that our fundamental problem is

:33:03.:33:05.

sentencing policy. We incarcerate too many people who don't need to be

:33:06.:33:06.

there and it cost a great deal of and on release too many

:33:07.:33:23.

resume offending. I could not agree more with the Lord Chief Justice --

:33:24.:33:26.

Lord Chief Justice who told the select committee last year that the

:33:27.:33:28.

focus needs to be more rigorous more demanding effective community

:33:29.:33:30.

penalties but those penalties must be available and sentences must have

:33:31.:33:32.

knowledge and confidence in them and that cuts to budgets and

:33:33.:33:34.

presentencing reports and problems with community rehabilitation. I

:33:35.:33:41.

want to comment very briefly on the extensive proposals in the bill in

:33:42.:33:48.

relation to core performance and I have a life interest as a member of

:33:49.:33:53.

the magistrates Association. I recognise the opportunities that

:33:54.:33:56.

modern technology can offer to an official court system but I echo

:33:57.:33:58.

concerns about how vulnerable users will fare in a virtual system. The

:33:59.:34:03.

virtual courts pilot of several years ago offers us very little

:34:04.:34:07.

reassurance, and the impact assessment that the government has

:34:08.:34:10.

produced to accompany this bill tells us nearly nothing. There are

:34:11.:34:16.

real concerns, highlighted by transforming justice amongst others,

:34:17.:34:19.

about the lack of access to legal advice, the impact on lawyer/ client

:34:20.:34:25.

relationships and the intra- act on sentencing, it seems there maybe

:34:26.:34:29.

some inflationary the fairness of the process, public perception and

:34:30.:34:32.

the cost to the public purse, which the impact assessment is quite vague

:34:33.:34:38.

about. I share the concerns of the magistrates Association and others

:34:39.:34:41.

regarding the use of online courts in relation to remand and sentencing

:34:42.:34:48.

vulnerable young people. Significant numbers of those imprisoned have low

:34:49.:34:52.

levels of literacy, numerous seats, or suffer from learning disabilities

:34:53.:34:54.

and they struggled to present their case in the best possible light.

:34:55.:34:57.

They may agree to their case been dealt with in writing or online

:34:58.:35:01.

because it is quick and it gets it over with and it is suggested to

:35:02.:35:04.

them by a police officer in a police station, but that does not

:35:05.:35:07.

necessarily serve the best interests of justice. I also understand the

:35:08.:35:12.

arguments which the honourable member for Huntingdon who is not

:35:13.:35:16.

currently in the chambermaid about the loss of the local justice area

:35:17.:35:22.

being an opportunity for a unified registry and judiciary, but I would

:35:23.:35:25.

say there are advantages as well to local justice, and as the justice

:35:26.:35:30.

select committee identified on its report on the magistrates state last

:35:31.:35:34.

year, the loss of the local justice area must not mean losing the

:35:35.:35:38.

leadership, the peer support, which helps the bench to function

:35:39.:35:42.

collectively more effectively and efficiently, and I hope the Minister

:35:43.:35:45.

will be able to reassure us. May I conclude with a couple of the marks

:35:46.:35:53.

on the other reforms? I endorse the concerns about proposals on whiplash

:35:54.:35:56.

in a small plate to attend I really regret the government hasn't taken

:35:57.:36:01.

the opportunity to be much more assertive in its approach to

:36:02.:36:04.

tackling the aggressive marketing practice of some of the claims

:36:05.:36:08.

management companies. I also endorsed the concerns raised by my

:36:09.:36:14.

right honourable friend in relation to the rise in the single claims

:36:15.:36:19.

limit impact it may have on have on workers on relatively low-paid

:36:20.:36:22.

employment with modest claims for accidents at work and could now find

:36:23.:36:26.

themselves unable to access the legal advice that enables them to

:36:27.:36:32.

make claims successfully and the trade union of which I am a member

:36:33.:36:36.

has offered a number of examples where relatively minor accidents,

:36:37.:36:39.

but which are significant to those on minimum wage jobs, would not have

:36:40.:36:44.

secured compensation under the changes that the government

:36:45.:36:47.

proposes, because of the lack of access to legal help for them to

:36:48.:36:51.

pursue their cases. Can I finally say that I am also concerned about

:36:52.:36:59.

one aspect of the proposals to move responsibility for employment

:37:00.:37:01.

tribunal 's to the Ministry of Justice and in doing so I hope we

:37:02.:37:04.

will not lose the real value that comes from having expert tribunal is

:37:05.:37:10.

made up of representatives of employers and of trade unions and

:37:11.:37:14.

employees as well as the trained judiciary. Like other speakers, I

:37:15.:37:20.

welcome this Bill, there is much to progress in it at that I look

:37:21.:37:24.

forward to seeing developed, but I hope that ministers will take very

:37:25.:37:28.

seriously the concerns that are being expressed, to ensure that the

:37:29.:37:32.

justice system we are so proud of in this country remains the best in the

:37:33.:37:34.

world are the most modern in the world as a result of the reforms

:37:35.:37:42.

being brought forward. They I begin by declaring an interest, not just

:37:43.:37:47.

on the subject that we are discussing, but that I am a trustee

:37:48.:37:50.

of the Prison Reform Trust and a patron of a charity called unlock,

:37:51.:37:54.

these two charities are concerned with criminal Justice in prisons in

:37:55.:37:58.

particular and I am also on the advisory board of the Samaritans.

:37:59.:38:03.

Much of what has been discussed this evening of course touches upon the

:38:04.:38:07.

work of the Samaritans. There are now literally tens of millions of

:38:08.:38:15.

calls made to Samaritans offices every year. The fact that it is

:38:16.:38:19.

difficult for prisoners to get access to telephones and the fact

:38:20.:38:26.

that the suicide rate in prison is very high, there were 119 last year,

:38:27.:38:32.

as I understand it, who took their own lives in prison, suggests to me

:38:33.:38:37.

that this is not a subject that we can just push aside lightly as

:38:38.:38:42.

something which is just one of the consequences of going to prison. I

:38:43.:38:47.

think that all of us need to concentrate quite carefully on what

:38:48.:38:56.

we say and what we do in relation to reducing the levels of self harm and

:38:57.:39:03.

suicide in prison, and I hope that my right honourable friend, the

:39:04.:39:06.

Minister of State, will be able to respond positively in relation to

:39:07.:39:15.

that at the end of the debate. It is uncontroversial I think that our

:39:16.:39:18.

prisons are violent and overcrowded and understaffed, now, what we do

:39:19.:39:22.

about it is a difficult question to answer because the politics about

:39:23.:39:30.

the criminal justice system in this regard is about sentencing. The

:39:31.:39:32.

politics is not about prisons. Really a consensual view... A

:39:33.:39:44.

reasonably consensual view at that what we think what is to be done in

:39:45.:39:48.

prisons, what ought to be done for prisoners and what ought to be done

:39:49.:39:55.

to protect the public. But the issue of sentencing is acutely

:39:56.:40:02.

controversial politically. Whereas the Right honourable lady full

:40:03.:40:10.

Camberwell asked the Government why we can do it for education, then why

:40:11.:40:14.

can we not do it, regulate or create a re-gene which regulates prisons?

:40:15.:40:21.

Welcome the answer is that knows of the British public, not all, what a

:40:22.:40:26.

great portion of them either have children of their own or no of

:40:27.:40:32.

children and take a personal and direct interest in school. --

:40:33.:40:37.

regime. When it comes to prisons, very viewable of know people who go

:40:38.:40:42.

to prison. Very few of us know about what goes on in prisons. It is a

:40:43.:40:48.

secret world and I've often said that the more that prisons are

:40:49.:40:54.

opened up to the public... Not in a ridiculous way, but in a sensible

:40:55.:40:58.

way, then the better the debate about prisons and the better the

:40:59.:41:01.

debate about that aspect of the criminal justice system would be.

:41:02.:41:09.

Yes. I thank my right honourable and learn that friends. Would he agree

:41:10.:41:13.

with me, notwithstanding what he said, that it is possible fraud to

:41:14.:41:18.

look from an overly liberal approach to sentencing but to support an

:41:19.:41:24.

innovative approach to tackling things to social bonds what we have

:41:25.:41:30.

seen at Peterborough prison. I did have an Ireland with that at all. It

:41:31.:41:36.

seems to me that the argument for making our prisons work. --

:41:37.:41:40.

argument. As a whole bottle victims of crime and the prisoners is not

:41:41.:41:47.

just a moral argument, it is a political argument. It is also an

:41:48.:41:52.

economic argument. We push hundreds of millions of pounds into the

:41:53.:41:57.

criminal justice system. And into the prison system. What we do with

:41:58.:42:05.

that investment? Reproduce failure. Every prisoner thousands were a

:42:06.:42:16.

business. -- reproduce failure full -- we produce. If the prison was a

:42:17.:42:25.

bitterness, we push millions into the factory and what do we get out

:42:26.:42:35.

of it, but 65% barrier? -- business. Things break safety by that of the

:42:36.:42:40.

time. -- failure. I would get sacked by investor would go elsewhere. That

:42:41.:42:46.

is economic argument. It happens to be bolstered by a moral and a

:42:47.:42:54.

liberal argument. I do not... The money we spend on prisons is not

:42:55.:42:58.

well spent, because it does not produce a leather rate of

:42:59.:43:00.

reoffending and it does not teach people to read or write so they can

:43:01.:43:07.

get jobs. -- lower. It doesn't guarantee that people who come out

:43:08.:43:15.

of prison, 95% of 85,000 people during the welcome our and if we put

:43:16.:43:20.

them into prison, and I sat as a judge for 25 years and good plenty

:43:21.:43:24.

of people into prison for perfectly good reasons, but if they come out

:43:25.:43:27.

of prison still addicted to drugs, still mentally ill, still unable to

:43:28.:43:35.

read or write, still incapable of getting a job, and then they

:43:36.:43:39.

reoffend because they have no other ambition and what to do what they

:43:40.:43:43.

always done, which is to commit crime, then what am I doing sensibly

:43:44.:43:48.

with the public's money? Not much. It seems to me that there should be

:43:49.:43:55.

a perfectly straightforward economic consensus and forget whether I a

:43:56.:44:03.

liberal concerned... Yes. My honourable friend fresher the end I

:44:04.:44:06.

of course belong to the same political party. We take... Eloise

:44:07.:44:14.

rather better at it and more expert than I, we take an issue embracing.

:44:15.:44:24.

But I do come back to the serious point I make and that is that this

:44:25.:44:33.

will argument has to be made. Yes. The honourable gentleman is making a

:44:34.:44:36.

very important point, but will he accept that there is a compromise

:44:37.:44:39.

between him and the honourable member for Shipley, which is that

:44:40.:44:46.

if... He is correct, if we are more successful at rehabilitating

:44:47.:44:48.

lower-level offenders, it leaves more space for us to lock up more

:44:49.:44:53.

serious offenders for longer, therefore satisfying the public's

:44:54.:44:56.

need far more severe sentences for violent and serious crime. I do

:44:57.:45:03.

agree with that and, as I say, I have sent plenty of people to prison

:45:04.:45:08.

for a very long period of time and... I wish we were able to make

:45:09.:45:17.

sure that those who don't need to go to prison, or need to be sent to

:45:18.:45:21.

other places, like mental hospitals, could be dealt with in a more

:45:22.:45:27.

sensible and productive and efficient and effective way. It's

:45:28.:45:29.

not an argument about whether criminals are good people and we

:45:30.:45:35.

should love them dearly. It is about doing what is best for all of us to

:45:36.:45:38.

ensure that the money that comes from the taxes on the money spent on

:45:39.:45:43.

the health service, on education is properly devoted and directed

:45:44.:45:47.

towards getting these people better so they don't do it a game. Those

:45:48.:45:53.

people who have their houses burnt want to ensure the business got and

:45:54.:45:58.

stopped, and dealt with. -- again. They also want to make sure they

:45:59.:46:05.

don't do it again. If all we do is be this conveyor belt, we are

:46:06.:46:07.

achieving nothing, but wasting money. The real crux of the problem

:46:08.:46:16.

at our prisons that we face at the moment, and it is not a problem we

:46:17.:46:20.

face at the moment, is that of overcrowding. -- it is a problem.

:46:21.:46:33.

Roll the prisons of -- I would have a lot of prisons, young offender

:46:34.:46:39.

institutes and such when I was in my previous role and it was abundantly

:46:40.:46:45.

clear and then as it is now that our prisoner state is roughly

:46:46.:46:47.

overcrowded. Battling very overcrowded. You cannot

:46:48.:46:51.

rehabilitate, read formal adequately protect the public prepare prisoners

:46:52.:46:57.

for life outside. -- all prepared. Unless you deal with the problem of

:46:58.:47:04.

overcrowding. -- or prepare. My honourable friend is very aware of

:47:05.:47:09.

that and my honourable friend the minister of prisons is fully aware

:47:10.:47:12.

of that. They have been inside prisons and know what is going on.

:47:13.:47:15.

They have do deal with the arithmetic of how to work out how to

:47:16.:47:20.

spend the money in the most sensible way, subject to the demands of the

:47:21.:47:24.

Treasury. The task they have is a difficult one. The aim is that she

:47:25.:47:29.

has written onto the face of the bill are good ones. What I would

:47:30.:47:37.

like to see in six months' time, in a year or in a suitable time after

:47:38.:47:40.

this bill has been implemented is not that we simply get told that all

:47:41.:47:47.

is well from the Secretary of State or from the chief Inspector, but

:47:48.:47:51.

that we see real, practical advance. It is one thing to write down things

:47:52.:47:55.

on the face of the bill, it is another thing to make sure they

:47:56.:48:00.

happen. We must deal, most centrally, it seems to me, with the

:48:01.:48:04.

hideous problem of overcrowding. With overcrowding, new get sentenced

:48:05.:48:11.

to prison in Canterbury Crown Court, you are sent for that night to

:48:12.:48:18.

Canterbury prison... All the newest prison to that. You end up in

:48:19.:48:25.

Norwich, but having been in via makes them, Lewes, somewhere on the

:48:26.:48:31.

Isle of Wight, somewhere in Dorset, Devon, Bristol, East Midlands, West

:48:32.:48:35.

Midlands and eventually you end up in Norwich, when they are released

:48:36.:48:41.

miles away from your family. You have no records following in a

:48:42.:48:50.

seamless way. This is a plea that I have opted time after time, at a

:48:51.:48:57.

time over the last 10-15 years. Ministers on the front bench, it

:48:58.:49:02.

doesn't matter what Parliament dot-mac party is in charge of the

:49:03.:49:07.

governments, it is a sensible thing to say, but unfortunately because of

:49:08.:49:12.

the politics in sentencing not being in the issue of prisoners, little is

:49:13.:49:21.

done about it. I really do hope that, on this occasion, with this

:49:22.:49:24.

new Secretary of State for Justice, we will see in advance whereby it

:49:25.:49:30.

won't take another 65 years for a new prison bill to look at this

:49:31.:49:35.

question, because they won't need one. It will be in a few years that

:49:36.:49:39.

we will see a reduction in the prison numbers, and increase in the

:49:40.:49:47.

levels of reform and reduction in the levels of reoffending. So that

:49:48.:49:55.

the public and the taxpayers that my honourable friend and I want to

:49:56.:49:58.

protect, both engines of their pocket and their safety, are

:49:59.:50:04.

improved and improved to the advantage of us all. -- both in

:50:05.:50:11.

terms of. I hope I'm actually going to be able to bring some great chair

:50:12.:50:18.

to the Right Honourable member for Harborough, because I'm proud to say

:50:19.:50:24.

that one prison that has developed a world-class suite of rehabilitation

:50:25.:50:27.

interventions to reduce reoffending is part prison. -- cheer. In my

:50:28.:50:35.

Bridgend constituency. I have to say this is largely thanks to the

:50:36.:50:43.

leadership of the prison director. -- Park Prison. And he had of the

:50:44.:50:46.

family intervention unit and his team of staff and volunteers and the

:50:47.:50:52.

most important part of all, with clear partnerships with local

:50:53.:50:59.

organisations within the community that establishes Park Prison. That

:51:00.:51:03.

has led to the rehabilitation work with family and making it, not only

:51:04.:51:09.

possible, but successful. Let me talk first of all about the

:51:10.:51:13.

invisible walls Wales programme. It was set up in 2012, funded for four

:51:14.:51:21.

years by the gigawatt read, Bridgend Council, Barnardos Wales and the

:51:22.:51:27.

Welsh Centre for crime and social justice. -- big lottery. Not money

:51:28.:51:32.

from the Ministry of Justice, but from Wales, from organisations

:51:33.:51:34.

within Wales worried about reoffending. The free call aims of

:51:35.:51:44.

the invisible walls Wales meet all fall of the bill. -- all four points

:51:45.:51:50.

of the bell. It is a free bet family intervention unit aimed at Lorraine

:51:51.:51:57.

reoffending, intergenerational offending and bridging community

:51:58.:52:04.

cohesion. This finding transform the way family engagement takes place in

:52:05.:52:09.

part prison. The environment of prison visits has been fundamentally

:52:10.:52:14.

revamped and, in a bold step, the prison visit Hall has been made to

:52:15.:52:19.

feel more like a community centre, rather than the prison. Across the

:52:20.:52:26.

prison estate, 48% of prisoners receive regular family contact. But

:52:27.:52:34.

in Park, thanks to a small change, that has now risen to 69%. The

:52:35.:52:41.

evidence as we all now shows that those who maintain links with their

:52:42.:52:45.

family in prison are 52% less likely to reoffend. 90% of prisoners at the

:52:46.:52:52.

start of Invisible Walls Wales were misusing drugs and alcohol. This

:52:53.:52:58.

fell to 24% by the end of the project. There were particular

:52:59.:53:04.

benefits for the children of prisoners. By the end, 30% reduction

:53:05.:53:11.

of children having school attainment and attendance issues. 91% of the

:53:12.:53:16.

children had appropriate peer relationships. In June of last year,

:53:17.:53:25.

the work at Park was declared as innovative, radical and probably the

:53:26.:53:30.

best they have seen in the UK. Their work has been exported

:53:31.:53:33.

internationally to prisons in the Netherlands, Uganda and Australia.

:53:34.:53:38.

The president of multi has visited to see what they can learn and Park

:53:39.:53:43.

has been the first prison in the EU to achieve an investors in families

:53:44.:53:50.

Charter Mark. This week, Park's head is easy at the International

:53:51.:53:55.

coalition for the children of prisoners in New Zealand. Park

:53:56.:54:00.

represent a global heart of excellence, especially when we

:54:01.:54:04.

consider that we are expecting evidence to show that reoffending

:54:05.:54:09.

rates amongst high-risk families is to reduce, from 80% to 10%. A 10%

:54:10.:54:17.

reoffending rate. The results speak for themselves. Before the changes,

:54:18.:54:23.

physical changes to the visitors all men family members and children who

:54:24.:54:29.

previously once a week saw destruction and violence in the

:54:30.:54:34.

minister's Hall, now Park have had one incident in six years.

:54:35.:54:43.

Facilitating positive family engagement becomes all the more

:54:44.:54:48.

important when six out of ten boys with fathers in prison will end up

:54:49.:54:52.

incarcerated themselves. We need to place more emphasis on family

:54:53.:54:57.

engagement as tools of reform. We have all said that, but Park

:54:58.:55:03.

actually makes it possible. I cannot tell you how many ways Park has

:55:04.:55:11.

changed lives. Mark, or one the Platinum award, the highest

:55:12.:55:18.

possible, in 1916 in a prison trust awards. This award attracts entries

:55:19.:55:26.

from around the UK and abroad. Park has submitted one of the top three

:55:27.:55:31.

entries to the trust and the chief executive of the trust said HM MP

:55:32.:55:40.

Park is an outstanding example of a testament to the outstanding staff

:55:41.:55:44.

at the prison. They turn prisoners latent potential into concrete

:55:45.:55:49.

achievements and it reflects the fact that G4S across all of its

:55:50.:55:52.

establishments take the arts seriously as a way of learning and

:55:53.:55:57.

rehabilitation. Many members will know of the Hay literary festival in

:55:58.:56:04.

Wales but you might not know about hey in the Park, where the Hay

:56:05.:56:08.

Festival takes place at the same time as hay in the Park and the

:56:09.:56:12.

literary arts festival encourages prisoners to write and present their

:56:13.:56:17.

artworks and sometimes the presenters at the Hay Festival come

:56:18.:56:25.

to Park to talk to prisoners. Schools now going to the prison to

:56:26.:56:31.

work with dads, helping with their reasoning and understanding of

:56:32.:56:33.

educational jargon and developing the listening and reasoning skills

:56:34.:56:37.

children's education. Schools are children's education. Schools are

:56:38.:56:40.

need to support children affected by need to support children affected by

:56:41.:56:47.

a parental imprisonment. Contact details are provided to schools so

:56:48.:56:49.

that if there are issues in the school they can go to the prison and

:56:50.:56:54.

ask for information and advice prisoners are helped in improving

:56:55.:57:02.

their children's literacy and numerous sea and at the same time

:57:03.:57:06.

build their own literacy and numerous sea skills. Building

:57:07.:57:09.

parents confidence in parenting and teaching them how to do it while

:57:10.:57:15.

incarcerated really makes a difference in their life of that

:57:16.:57:18.

family and of that prisoner once they leave. Fathers insider focuses

:57:19.:57:27.

on intensive group work on parental responsibility for the children's

:57:28.:57:30.

education, development and well-being, using drama, education

:57:31.:57:35.

and games and portfolios. There is a Duke of Edinburgh leadership pilot

:57:36.:57:38.

there where fathers gain the opportunity to gain a Duke of

:57:39.:57:42.

Edinburgh leadership qualification while ensuring their children or

:57:43.:57:44.

siblings through different sections siblings through different sections

:57:45.:57:48.

of the Bronze award. There is a beaver Scouts group, the first in

:57:49.:57:56.

any prison in the UK, for prisoners and their children. The baby steps

:57:57.:58:00.

programme gives innovative antenatal education to parents before the baby

:58:01.:58:08.

is born, so that parents know how to parent. They have developed an

:58:09.:58:16.

introductory booklet that enables a robust risk assessment so that

:58:17.:58:22.

prisoners who may be violent are identified and steps can be put in

:58:23.:58:26.

place immediately to reduce that violence. New arrivals are screened

:58:27.:58:32.

for discriminatory views and prisoners found to have contravened

:58:33.:58:33.

the prisoners inclusion policy are

:58:34.:58:40.

required to extend the diversity training programme with set action

:58:41.:58:45.

is fed into their sentence plan. I have talked earlier about the work

:58:46.:58:55.

were Park, but it only works if Park prison works in advance of a

:58:56.:58:58.

prisoners discharge to make sure that the prisoner is ready, ready

:58:59.:59:05.

for the change, ready for the responsibility, ready to move into

:59:06.:59:11.

work, to build a new life, to change from going back to the old patterns,

:59:12.:59:16.

the old friendship group, the old offending, and the behaviour that

:59:17.:59:21.

led to offending before they moved to become a companion in one of the

:59:22.:59:31.

Emmaus homes. Can I ask the secretary of state to also work with

:59:32.:59:35.

the Department for Work and Pensions because the new proposals in

:59:36.:59:38.

relation to change to access to relation to change to access to

:59:39.:59:43.

housing benefit will damage the Emmaus scheme because companions

:59:44.:59:48.

only have, the only income they have, is that housing benefit, and

:59:49.:59:51.

that makes it possible for Emmaus to continue its work. I know that time

:59:52.:59:58.

is running short, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I have to say that

:59:59.:00:05.

money is not anything -- everything. Skilled and dedicated prison

:00:06.:00:10.

officers, partnership working outside the prison, and maintaining

:00:11.:00:17.

the family link is vital to rehabilitation, but so is taking

:00:18.:00:20.

risks and trying new innovative ideas that don't fit the traditional

:00:21.:00:24.

view of punitive sentencing. It is not a soft option. Knowing you lose

:00:25.:00:30.

contact with your children if you take drugs, nor is having a child

:00:31.:00:35.

tell you about their bedwetting and their bullying that they face

:00:36.:00:40.

because their father is imprisoned, nor is having to face your own

:00:41.:00:45.

illiteracy and numerous sea, the way your offending has damaged your

:00:46.:00:52.

community and your family life. I had the Secretary of State will

:00:53.:00:55.

visit Park and see the work that they did there, and can I just say

:00:56.:00:59.

that I hope she has the same sort of look on her face as her predecessor

:01:00.:01:06.

when he came to Park and he spoke to one of my prisoners about his

:01:07.:01:12.

educational experience there and this young man said he had dropped

:01:13.:01:18.

him, it wasn't going to take him him, it wasn't going to take him

:01:19.:01:22.

anywhere, and now Park are given a chance, not only to do his GCSEs,

:01:23.:01:27.

but he was doing a degree, and he was asked in what? And he said

:01:28.:01:35.

philosophy. Now, if Britain can take people through degrees in philosophy

:01:36.:01:40.

that is the sort of changes in that is the sort of changes in

:01:41.:01:44.

people's lives that I hope this bill is going to be able to produce. It

:01:45.:01:55.

is a privilege to follow the honourable member for Bridgend who

:01:56.:01:58.

is a expert on prison reform and I think what you said about HMP Park

:01:59.:02:04.

was incredibly informative and moving and I really was interested

:02:05.:02:09.

to hear what she said about Park supporting families, which is

:02:10.:02:11.

something that can be rolled out in other prisons as well. I would like

:02:12.:02:17.

to declare an interest as a former criminal barrister who had defended

:02:18.:02:20.

and prosecuted and I would like to pay tribute to the Lord Chancellor

:02:21.:02:25.

and Secretary of State, my Norfolk neighbour, for the work she has done

:02:26.:02:28.

in preparing this bill and her ministerial team because they have

:02:29.:02:31.

been indefatigable in putting together what is a very impressive

:02:32.:02:40.

bill, but it appears that what the honourable member for Leeds East

:02:41.:02:43.

said does command a great deal of consensus. On the prisons, though

:02:44.:02:50.

obviously of the crisis, and a number of Right honourable and

:02:51.:02:52.

honourable colleagues have alluded to this crisis and I do certainly

:02:53.:03:01.

have a great deal of concern myself because last year, in the 12 months

:03:02.:03:06.

to December 2016 there were 25,000 prison assault incidents. A 31%

:03:07.:03:13.

increase on the previous year, and furthermore there were 6430 assaults

:03:14.:03:19.

on prison staff, in which 761 were serious. Furthermore, as we heard

:03:20.:03:24.

from the right honourable and Leonard member for Peckham, that

:03:25.:03:31.

there were 37,750 self harm incidents, and 354 prisons died in

:03:32.:03:38.

prison whilst in custody and only 5% of those deaths were due to natural

:03:39.:03:42.

causes. There is obviously a crisis and although what is encouraging in

:03:43.:03:50.

some ways is that the number of prisoners testing policy for drugs

:03:51.:03:54.

has actually come down, there has been a very big increase in the use

:03:55.:04:03.

of NPS, new psychiatric substances. I'm very pleased indeed that the

:04:04.:04:08.

Chancellor of state is adding measures in this bill to Abbey NPS

:04:09.:04:12.

into existing testing powers that is sensible. I welcome what she's doing

:04:13.:04:16.

regarding mobile telephony because there are far too many illegal

:04:17.:04:22.

mobile phones prisons. When it comes to NPS, Madam Deputy Speaker, I was

:04:23.:04:25.

struck when I went around Wayland prison recently in Mid Norfolk that

:04:26.:04:32.

the number of prisoners who actually are getting access to spice and

:04:33.:04:38.

these other NPS and it is having a devastating affect on the management

:04:39.:04:44.

prisons. I saw recently that in HMP Forest bank there was a death of a

:04:45.:04:49.

prisoner on January 29 from a Spice overdose and it was actually the

:04:50.:04:52.

16th death across the prison if they join the course of that month,

:04:53.:04:57.

January this year. One prisoner who was recently released from Forest

:04:58.:05:01.

bank said that half of the prisoners on the staff and the other half

:05:02.:05:05.

spend the whole day trying to keep away from those prisoners who are on

:05:06.:05:11.

the staff. We have a real problem. I heard when I visited a particular

:05:12.:05:15.

prison, I would tell you which one it is, because I don't want to

:05:16.:05:18.

embarrass the governor, but the governor said that he was very keen

:05:19.:05:23.

to create a drugs free wing, and I just find it incredible the lack of

:05:24.:05:28.

ambition, our prisoners should be -- al prisons should be drug-free, as

:05:29.:05:33.

simple as that. How does it coming? The prisoners don't bring drugs in I

:05:34.:05:36.

don't believe that the visitors bring drugs in, so they are coming

:05:37.:05:41.

the wire and our coming in on drones or on supply vehicles and I am sorry

:05:42.:05:44.

to say that there may well be a small number of corrupt prison

:05:45.:05:49.

officers but a very significant amount of drugs, in particular,

:05:50.:05:56.

these new psychotic substances, psychoactive substances are getting

:05:57.:05:59.

into how prisons and causing a great deal of mayhem, misery, and in some

:06:00.:06:06.

cases death as well. I really would urge the secretary of state and the

:06:07.:06:10.

Lord Chancellor and her team to do all she can to keep up the pressure

:06:11.:06:13.

to make our prisons entirely drugs free. I do agree with my right

:06:14.:06:19.

honourable learner friend who said there are in many ways to many

:06:20.:06:23.

people in prisons. I think there are not enough people in prison who have

:06:24.:06:28.

done certain things wrong and committed horrendous crimes and I

:06:29.:06:30.

think they should be imprisoned for longer but I do feel strongly that

:06:31.:06:33.

there are some people in prison who should not be there and am worried

:06:34.:06:38.

that there are more and more prisoners aged 50 plus and many more

:06:39.:06:44.

prisoners over 65 at the moment and this is partly due, as the secretary

:06:45.:06:49.

of state conceded, the extra number of convictions for child abuse

:06:50.:06:54.

crimes. I certainly don't underestimate the seriousness of

:06:55.:06:58.

these crimes and no one can claim for one moment that these are

:06:59.:07:01.

victimless crimes, there are victims of these crimes and the perpetrators

:07:02.:07:06.

need to be punished, but I do agree with Simon Bailey, the chief Coast

:07:07.:07:09.

of love Europe who is the lead on this subject, when he said that

:07:10.:07:16.

there are some people who actually help prison and I do think there

:07:17.:07:21.

have been too overzealous prosecutions of some of these people

:07:22.:07:24.

who should actually be given help to wean them off their dreadful habits.

:07:25.:07:28.

A number of colleagues have mentioned the mentally ill in our

:07:29.:07:31.

prison estate and that includes the honourable member for Stretford at

:07:32.:07:37.

and my honourable friend for North West Cambridgeshire and Bromley and

:07:38.:07:44.

Chislehurst and certainly the good doctor from Ipswich. It is very

:07:45.:07:49.

worrying that 4% of prisoners have psychotic illness, 14% suffer a

:07:50.:07:53.

major depressive illness and nearly two thirds have some form of

:07:54.:07:57.

personality disorder. I want to make a suggestion to the secretary of

:07:58.:08:01.

state as to how we could make some progress this because I do believe

:08:02.:08:04.

that there is an alternative to that there is an alternative to

:08:05.:08:09.

prison for some of those people suffering from serious mental ill

:08:10.:08:13.

health, and that is to be found in the mental health treatment

:08:14.:08:18.

requirement. What concerns me is that this can be added to a

:08:19.:08:23.

community or suspended sentence after a conviction, but only 0.5% of

:08:24.:08:27.

community sentences in 2016 included in MH TR. Why is that? May be the

:08:28.:08:33.

prison minister could look at that and elaborate further on it because

:08:34.:08:37.

I think that significant progress could be made on that front and I am

:08:38.:08:42.

glad that the secretary of state is nodding. I also raised the point

:08:43.:08:46.

regarding foreign prisoners and I do regarding foreign prisoners and I do

:08:47.:08:52.

of our prison population of 84,000 of our prison population of 84,000

:08:53.:09:01.

307, at that last week, just under 10,000 of those prisoners are

:09:02.:09:04.

foreign prisoners. I haven't done the maths but I think that is about

:09:05.:09:10.

16% and of course some of them are European and there is a difficulty

:09:11.:09:13.

of the problem in terms of ensuring that they are deported back because

:09:14.:09:16.

we have to have the arrangements in place and of course in Europe that

:09:17.:09:19.

doesn't normally happen but there are a number of countries like

:09:20.:09:25.

Albania, Jamaica, Pakistan, India, Somalia, unfortunately, and Nigeria,

:09:26.:09:33.

roughly 3.5% of all the foreign prisoners come from Nigeria, a

:09:34.:09:37.

staggering 5.3% come from Jamaica, and I really do believe that the

:09:38.:09:41.

prisons minister and his team and officials must try to do more to

:09:42.:09:45.

quit this problem. Why aren't there reciprocal arrangements in place and

:09:46.:09:49.

better arrangements in place and why are we working with Jamaican

:09:50.:09:52.

government and the Nigerian government to improve their prisons?

:09:53.:09:57.

Why are we doing the same in Somalia? As far as I understand it

:09:58.:10:00.

the new government there have complete control of most of the

:10:01.:10:05.

urban areas and the prisons are so surely something it could be done

:10:06.:10:07.

there. Is. I was going to say something

:10:08.:10:16.

about call but I think there are a lot of colleagues who are trying to

:10:17.:10:25.

his beak. -- I will conclude. To speak. Things can be discussed at

:10:26.:10:29.

report stage or in committee. We have this Bill. It is a bill that

:10:30.:10:34.

commends a great deal of concern from across the house, across all

:10:35.:10:39.

parties. As it a time, the Government's energy will be directed

:10:40.:10:44.

over the next few months and years on Brexit and the challenging

:10:45.:10:48.

negotiations going on with that, the governments still have time to stand

:10:49.:10:54.

to and bring in a really important bill. Let's hope that a really good

:10:55.:10:58.

bill Can the made better still and committee. It's an honour to follow

:10:59.:11:07.

the honourable member, he gave a very articulate speech. I'm grateful

:11:08.:11:11.

to speak on this debate any second reading of the prisons and courts

:11:12.:11:14.

bell ad of joining the committee stages of the bill of the next few

:11:15.:11:19.

weeks. The White Paper was published last year and I welcome the Forest

:11:20.:11:23.

today many of the steps being taken to get to grips with the challenges

:11:24.:11:27.

of our present and the justice system more widely. Greater scrutiny

:11:28.:11:31.

and more transparency are positive steps, but when thinking about our

:11:32.:11:36.

prison system, a few others have made this point. This will only

:11:37.:11:40.

succeed once we have come randomly got to grips with safety in our

:11:41.:11:45.

prisons. Without an effectively functioning prison systems, one that

:11:46.:11:51.

is reform at its very core. When appearing before the Justice select

:11:52.:11:56.

committee back lashed year, the probation said that self harm, debt

:11:57.:12:03.

in custody are pointing in the wrong direction and using my role as

:12:04.:12:06.

constructively as possible to make sure the bell goes far enough, as

:12:07.:12:11.

the last improving those numbers. Partly due to a number of

:12:12.:12:17.

high-profile incidents, members will be aware of what has now become

:12:18.:12:22.

institutionalised in the justice system. When giving evidence to the

:12:23.:12:27.

justify committee, baby Minister and CEO of the National offender

:12:28.:12:29.

management service were in agreement that overcrowding has been a problem

:12:30.:12:34.

for the last decade. Battling both the. There has been a rise from

:12:35.:12:43.

43,019 90s lead to just over... The number of uniformed prisoners Tasker

:12:44.:12:50.

has increased. Following the closure of 18 prisons since 2010, the

:12:51.:12:57.

prisoner estate has seen a reduction of several thousand places at a time

:12:58.:13:01.

when prisoners are increasing. There are plans to extension at existing

:13:02.:13:05.

sites but these measures will not alleviate overcrowding within this

:13:06.:13:10.

Parliament or the next. Overcrowding is a problem and 59% of prisons, 80

:13:11.:13:17.

out of 116 establishments. My nearest prison is one of the most

:13:18.:13:20.

overcrowded any country the Prison Reform Trust is shown to accommodate

:13:21.:13:34.

600 men, but it's populated at 71% of its intended capacity. What is

:13:35.:13:37.

the impact on the conditions within? We have already heard from

:13:38.:13:41.

colleagues and statistics Ronnie has a common library that show that the

:13:42.:13:47.

number of prisoner on prisoner assaults increased by 31% on the

:13:48.:13:52.

previous year with just over 25,000 recorded incidents. There they

:13:53.:13:55.

nearly 35,000 incidents of self harm, a 61% increase on 2006, and

:13:56.:14:02.

any 12 months to December 20 16, deaths in custody. 54% of those

:14:03.:14:11.

self-inflicted and 1% by homicide. A report revealed there were more than

:14:12.:14:15.

42 incidents of violence within prison establishments every day.

:14:16.:14:20.

Given the numbers that we measure effectiveness and safety pointing in

:14:21.:14:24.

the wrong direction, it is perhaps surprising that we have seen a

:14:25.:14:32.

reduction in prison officers. Prisons have enclosed in that time,

:14:33.:14:36.

but the population is still increased, in fact, eating at an

:14:37.:14:42.

all-time high in 2011. By any analysis of ratios, the number of

:14:43.:14:46.

officers were shown to be inadequate to meet the challenges. -- peaking.

:14:47.:14:51.

I support the call in looking at ways we can introduce radios into

:14:52.:14:55.

this Bill. I welcome the decision announced in the White Paper to

:14:56.:14:59.

recruit 2500 more prison officers and I'm glad the Secretary of State

:15:00.:15:02.

could tell more about the recruitment process. 400 more prison

:15:03.:15:06.

officers have been recruited for the ten most challenging prisons. I had

:15:07.:15:10.

been at the well be able to go further and outlining the next steps

:15:11.:15:13.

of recruitment of those further 2100 posts. Then it to that, the CEO

:15:14.:15:24.

confirmed in November that the rates are prison officers are leaving in

:15:25.:15:28.

the first year is 13.5% and has been as high as 16% in the last three

:15:29.:15:33.

airs. I'm interested to know the Secretary of State has factored this

:15:34.:15:37.

in when recruiting new offices. -- years. If 13% lead, that will be 54%

:15:38.:15:47.

we will need to find. -- 54 we need to find. I don't want to just make

:15:48.:15:51.

the case of capacity, but also the case for my amendments that will

:15:52.:15:56.

although prison officer safety, which I believe is an area this Bill

:15:57.:16:02.

to go much further in. As Sarah articulately outlined by my

:16:03.:16:06.

honourable friend, who big about having just two officers to consider

:16:07.:16:10.

a wing of more than 150 prisoners, you can appreciate a sense of being

:16:11.:16:13.

at them as when you think about those powers. -- as so. We need to

:16:14.:16:20.

make sure prisoners are safe at work so they don't believe. Colleagues

:16:21.:16:25.

will be aware that, since having an eye opening experience of shadowing

:16:26.:16:30.

a police officer in my constituency, I have campaigned for greater

:16:31.:16:34.

protection for emergency service workers and prison officers are no

:16:35.:16:38.

less deserving. Everybody by the prison officers Association ruled

:16:39.:16:40.

that eight staff members are assaulted every day and in 2010,

:16:41.:16:46.

there are 24 sexual assault against prison staff. It is just

:16:47.:16:50.

unacceptable. According to section eight of the prison act 1952, prison

:16:51.:16:55.

officers, while acting as such, have all the powers and protection of a

:16:56.:17:02.

police constable. Where our soldiers, where evidence reports,

:17:03.:17:05.

the prosecutor has a choice of pursuing common assault charges

:17:06.:17:08.

under section 39 of the criminal Justice act or I thought police

:17:09.:17:11.

charges under section 89 of the police act 1996. Assault is an

:17:12.:17:18.

offence that carries a maximum of 24 weeks of cost to deal service 30

:17:19.:17:22.

nude teen resolution can be most common outcome. Ireland share the

:17:23.:17:28.

details now but I recommend the prison violence. How he doesn't have

:17:29.:17:42.

to get? -- 30 weeks of resolution. Projecting prison officers. I will

:17:43.:17:46.

give way. Can I commend the work she has done on this and with regard to

:17:47.:17:49.

police officers, it is very much appreciated by them. As she talks

:17:50.:17:54.

about the number of us all on prison officers going up, is she aware the

:17:55.:17:58.

number of extra days given prison officer assault by a prisoner is

:17:59.:18:02.

going down? The average number of extra days for a prisoner assault on

:18:03.:18:12.

a prison officer was 25 years ago. Was 20 five years ago. Would you

:18:13.:18:19.

agree that is inadequate? It is more now. I believe you are quite right

:18:20.:18:23.

and I think the pressures of overcrowding are starting to reflect

:18:24.:18:26.

in those sentences handed out within prisons that do not serve as a

:18:27.:18:31.

proper deterrent. I would be more than welcome to consider that point

:18:32.:18:34.

and others in the committee stages of the Dell. This is why I'm calling

:18:35.:18:39.

on the governments to consider making it an aggravating factor to

:18:40.:18:43.

us all a credit prison officer under existing, assaults, GBH, ABH and

:18:44.:18:48.

malicious wounding charges. That would give the judiciary more

:18:49.:18:52.

flexibility when considering sentencing. Sentencing must be about

:18:53.:18:56.

an effective deterrent. As they just said, not about exacerbating

:18:57.:18:59.

conditions in prison at ensuring there is a real incentive not to

:19:00.:19:02.

assault officers. Further to this, the practice of parting where you

:19:03.:19:11.

are thrown at a prison officer as a means of assaulting, and it seems to

:19:12.:19:13.

be Dean L prison officers in be Dean L prison officers in

:19:14.:19:15.

particular who are singled out for this treatment. -- female. It is

:19:16.:19:21.

horrific. Charges must be brought to every individual involved. There is

:19:22.:19:29.

no wonder there was a 13.5% dropout rate when you look at what the

:19:30.:19:32.

Basque prison officers do face every day they go to work. -- what we ask.

:19:33.:19:38.

The second part is about spitting, it hobbles bitching blood and

:19:39.:19:47.

saliva, but it can also have life changing legal consequences or

:19:48.:19:58.

disease. I aim to... From an offender that battered her many as

:19:59.:20:00.

you try to arrest him. At the moment, if a prison officer or

:20:01.:20:06.

emergency service worker is that ad, they can only take a sample when

:20:07.:20:11.

given permission. Needless to say, most prisoners deliberately seek to

:20:12.:20:15.

inflict the maximum distress on a prison officer and declined to

:20:16.:20:18.

prison officer at all staff member prison officer at all staff member

:20:19.:20:24.

no option but to take and try viral treatment or weight. In Raleigh,

:20:25.:20:30.

refusal to provide blood sample result in a fine and gusto deal

:20:31.:20:38.

sentence -- Australia. -- Oslo deal. We should all this, punishing by

:20:39.:20:47.

fine or custodial sentence. -- custodial. This would stop them from

:20:48.:20:52.

having to go through a six-month ordeal waiting to see if anything is

:20:53.:20:55.

more serious. I want to tackle this at the committee stage of the Bill

:20:56.:20:58.

and Ted the Government will work with the need measures. I also

:20:59.:21:08.

wanted to behave... Raise. -- to the governments. We will be seeking to

:21:09.:21:15.

build support for this change and amend the bill to that effect, and I

:21:16.:21:17.

will be supporting in in doing so. will be supporting in in doing so.

:21:18.:21:22.

Turning to the court section of the bill, I have been particularly

:21:23.:21:26.

animated, shall we say, about the closure of both the Magistrates'

:21:27.:21:30.

Court and the county and family Court in my constituency. I'm

:21:31.:21:35.

grateful that the honourable member for Hertfordshire has sought to keep

:21:36.:21:39.

me informed about this Bill, knowing that the provision of justice is

:21:40.:21:42.

something I'm particularly passionate about. Having attended a

:21:43.:21:48.

meeting about this, there's a lodge to the optimistic about. Except that

:21:49.:21:52.

when starting from a position of what is best practice around

:21:53.:21:55.

supporting vulnerable victims through the justice system giving

:21:56.:22:00.

evidence, there are old-fashioned court settlement buildings are from

:22:01.:22:05.

just not up to the job. In Halifax, having accepted some of the reason

:22:06.:22:09.

for the closing of the court in order to facilitate this revolution

:22:10.:22:13.

in access from justice, to make provision more acceptable than ever

:22:14.:22:16.

before and accessible, the courts have closed and people simply have

:22:17.:22:19.

the travel much further than ever before to attend the same

:22:20.:22:24.

old-fashioned court buildings and use the same outdated systems. With

:22:25.:22:27.

a six-year roll out, and it is the would forward to seeing, like

:22:28.:22:31.

stewing in Halifax is that there is the massive step backwards in the

:22:32.:22:36.

meantime. Engaging with his progress, I accept differences they

:22:37.:22:42.

need to court and Ascot for a merge, cost saving and full tribunal for

:22:43.:22:49.

services. I went to visit Kent Police and I bought the Government's

:22:50.:22:53.

argument. Not for lack of trying, I felt to engage in them with working

:22:54.:22:58.

with me on how technology you be used for the benefit of my

:22:59.:23:01.

constituents and deliberate justice system that is fit for purpose. I'm

:23:02.:23:05.

really grateful that the Chief Executive of the Majesty 's Court

:23:06.:23:09.

tribunal system offered to meet with me to discuss this further.

:23:10.:23:14.

Following similar pleas I made. I do genuinely had that we get a new

:23:15.:23:21.

technology in place to mitigate some of the closures in Halifax. I

:23:22.:23:24.

genuinely welcome the move to introduce modern technology into the

:23:25.:23:26.

justice system where vulnerable victims can record their statement

:23:27.:23:33.

just ones to save paying repetition, that is only a good thing, cutting

:23:34.:23:37.

down time spent by police officers in court where justice can be

:23:38.:23:41.

accessed on an iPad any front room, that would be fantastic. My dining

:23:42.:23:46.

committee can outline example is aware, closures can let daylight

:23:47.:23:50.

which discovered that has failed to bridge and work towards practical

:23:51.:23:52.

measures of delivering a better service as soon as possible. In

:23:53.:23:57.

conclusion, I'm looking forward to examining and debating this bill in

:23:58.:24:01.

more detail. I'd welcome many measures within it. This is a

:24:02.:24:06.

situation that is so pressing and pretty desperate in some of our

:24:07.:24:09.

prisons. The pressure to get this right and do so quickly is weighing

:24:10.:24:14.

on our all. In particular, I hope you work quickly to areas of

:24:15.:24:19.

prisoner safety and with the recruitment and retention pressures

:24:20.:24:21.

facing the Government, I hope it is something that we will be receptive

:24:22.:24:23.

to. It is a pleasure to follow the

:24:24.:24:32.

honourable lady, the member for Halifax, and to follow so many other

:24:33.:24:36.

experts are spoken in this debate already. It is a pleasure to also

:24:37.:24:44.

speak so early in this debate and I'm grateful to have caught. In

:24:45.:24:52.

particular for a bill that commands cross-party support, at least is

:24:53.:24:55.

this second reading stage, there is much to commend itself within this

:24:56.:25:01.

bill, and touch on aspects. I warmly welcome the areas on whiplash on the

:25:02.:25:08.

strengthening of regulations in relation to whiplash injuries and

:25:09.:25:11.

also call procedure when new technologies are to be introduced

:25:12.:25:14.

and I was pleased to hear from the Secretary of State a few moments ago

:25:15.:25:16.

when she spoke and opened this debate that the courts in the

:25:17.:25:19.

south-west of England are doing so well in relation to technology and

:25:20.:25:24.

it is a pleasure to hear that the courts in that part of the world, in

:25:25.:25:27.

my part of the world, are doing so well. I am going to focus my very

:25:28.:25:32.

brief remarks in relation to prisons and prisons reform. I am delighted

:25:33.:25:38.

to see that the purpose prisons is being fed out on the face of the

:25:39.:25:45.

bill and tee-macro of them importantly so. Reform and

:25:46.:25:49.

rehabilitation of offenders, secondly repairing prisoners for

:25:50.:25:55.

life outside of prison. Many people have set out their concerns within

:25:56.:25:59.

the prison system so far but none, I think I have dwelt at length on the

:26:00.:26:05.

reoffending statistics. They have remained stubbornly high. The young

:26:06.:26:11.

offenders the reoffending rates are close to 70%, at 68.7%. For those

:26:12.:26:17.

who are sentenced to less than a year in prison the reoffending rates

:26:18.:26:22.

are at 60%, and the overall offending rates are just under 45%,

:26:23.:26:30.

44.7%. It also comes at a cost, cost of ?15 billion per year. That is not

:26:31.:26:36.

the overall cost of reoffending, that is solely in respect of

:26:37.:26:41.

reoffending in relation to those who have been in prison, so it is

:26:42.:26:45.

absolutely right that we put on the face of the bill the necessity to

:26:46.:26:52.

reform and rehabilitate offenders. These statistics that I have just

:26:53.:27:00.

read out compared badly to some of our international counterparts. It

:27:01.:27:02.

is worth reflecting on those countries that do particularly well.

:27:03.:27:07.

Denmark, for example, has a reoffending rate of 29%. Iceland and

:27:08.:27:13.

Singapore 27%, but Norway leads the feed -- field with the reoffending

:27:14.:27:20.

rate of 20%. I accent that the legal jurisdictions and some of those

:27:21.:27:23.

countries are very different from our own but it is worth reflecting

:27:24.:27:27.

where there is good practice and seeing what we can learn from that

:27:28.:27:31.

and in that regard I was particularly pleased to have visited

:27:32.:27:34.

again offenders institution in Norway, just outside of Bergen. I

:27:35.:27:40.

think prisons in Norway unfairly have been compared to holiday camps

:27:41.:27:44.

by some, and by the media in our country no less. With reoffending

:27:45.:27:51.

rates at 20% I think it would be churlish to ignore that, and where

:27:52.:27:56.

there are good examples that we can learn from countries such as Norway

:27:57.:27:59.

I think we should try and learned those lessons. I will give way.

:28:00.:28:05.

Would my honourable friend agree that there are also examples of good

:28:06.:28:09.

practice in this country as well. I visited a project in my constituency

:28:10.:28:13.

where they are working with offenders, providing routes into

:28:14.:28:17.

employment and men touring and counselling skills and an

:28:18.:28:21.

extraordinary range of opportunities and their reoffending rates are just

:28:22.:28:25.

4%, does he agree we should have the practical examples in this country

:28:26.:28:29.

and rolled out more widely? I absolutely agree and I am grateful

:28:30.:28:33.

for that intervention and it is clear that that scheme is doing an

:28:34.:28:36.

excellent job in her constituency and we had from the honourable

:28:37.:28:39.

member for bridge end of the good work that is going on in Park

:28:40.:28:44.

presents, and that is being rolled out internationally. We ourselves

:28:45.:28:50.

can learn from institutions in our country or from a pure and --

:28:51.:28:54.

abroad, and I think we should be big enough brave enough to learners

:28:55.:28:56.

lessons and adopt good practice and roll it out across the country. I am

:28:57.:29:00.

very grateful for that intervention on that point. The two principles

:29:01.:29:05.

that I learned from my visit to the young offenders institution in

:29:06.:29:08.

Norway were in relation to staff ratios and also in relation officer

:29:09.:29:14.

training. Their police officers are all either graduates or have had a

:29:15.:29:19.

two-year training programme so I was particularly pleased to hear from

:29:20.:29:22.

the Secretary of State in her opening that we are recruiting more

:29:23.:29:25.

prison officers and that there is more that is being done to improve

:29:26.:29:30.

the training of our own prison officers as well. Indeed, I learned

:29:31.:29:37.

earlier on today they unlocked graduates scheme that is a two-year

:29:38.:29:41.

programme and I warmly welcome it and I am pleased to see the Minister

:29:42.:29:49.

in agreement to that. I'm grateful to my honourable friend. On the

:29:50.:29:52.

analysis of reoffending rates, would you comment on the need of those

:29:53.:29:57.

that you know from a similar professional background, not to go

:29:58.:30:00.

out of prison and into the arms of drugs dealers and further

:30:01.:30:02.

reoffending but into the arms of a loved one where there is an ongoing

:30:03.:30:06.

family relationship where with that connection that can be ongoing

:30:07.:30:11.

support not to reoffend? I am grateful for the intervention. I was

:30:12.:30:14.

going to touch on it later but I may as well deal

:30:15.:30:29.

with it now. Honourable members from both sides of the house have

:30:30.:30:32.

mentioned the importance of that. The honourable lady, a member for

:30:33.:30:35.

Bridgend, who was not in a place, mentioned a 51% of reduction on

:30:36.:30:38.

reoffending which was not a figure I had seen that I would be grateful to

:30:39.:30:41.

know where that figure came from. The member for Stretford mentioned

:30:42.:30:43.

at 39% figure and that is from research that the Ministry of

:30:44.:30:45.

Justice themselves conducted and instigated in 2008 and I have seen

:30:46.:30:47.

that figure but I am interested in both. My honourable friend is

:30:48.:30:50.

absolutely right, we should indeed look at that and I would like to

:30:51.:30:54.

challenge the minister to see if this is something that could and

:30:55.:30:59.

should perhaps be on the face of the bill. For the purposes of prisons

:31:00.:31:07.

that are set out in clause one, I would ask the Minister to consider

:31:08.:31:10.

whether close family or family relationships or some sort of

:31:11.:31:14.

wedding like that could and should be put on the face of the bill and I

:31:15.:31:18.

was pleased to see and hear announced by the Secretary of State

:31:19.:31:21.

that Lord Farmer has been looking at this particular area and I know he

:31:22.:31:26.

will bring his great expertise, and we eagerly anticipate the

:31:27.:31:31.

publication of his report. I also had the opportunity to visit with my

:31:32.:31:35.

honourable friend the member for Hexham, who has been in the chamber

:31:36.:31:39.

for much of this debate, and is in the chamber now, Her Majesty 's

:31:40.:31:44.

prison holding Lee, which is a reform prison and to see the work

:31:45.:31:49.

that goes on there. When reform prisons were initially launched I

:31:50.:31:53.

certainly questioned how they would make a difference, what empowering

:31:54.:31:56.

governors actually meant on the ground, but there were two examples

:31:57.:32:00.

that the governor gave to me which made clear the impact that reform

:32:01.:32:04.

prisons and giving greater autonomy to prison governors can have. There

:32:05.:32:11.

are small examples but they paint a bigger picture and they have a big

:32:12.:32:18.

impact, certainly in Coldingham A. Firstly each and every prison at

:32:19.:32:23.

their works. We had an opportunity to see around the vast factories

:32:24.:32:26.

that were there, they had printing presses and the like all setup. As a

:32:27.:32:32.

result of the flexibility given to the governor, the governor was able

:32:33.:32:38.

to increase the food allowance from under ?2 to in excess of ?2. It

:32:39.:32:43.

seemed like a small uplift but it was in recognition of the fact that

:32:44.:32:46.

each and every prisoner was working and it made a dramatic difference to

:32:47.:32:49.

the morale of the prisoners if nothing else. The second example was

:32:50.:32:55.

the appointment of a key position where the government simply would

:32:56.:33:00.

not have been able to afford without having flexibility within the budget

:33:01.:33:05.

and the autonomy as governor in order to prioritise funds where they

:33:06.:33:12.

saw fit. Those two examples, I believe small examples, that brought

:33:13.:33:15.

home to me the importance of giving governors autonomy and greater

:33:16.:33:21.

authority as well. There is one other area that was foreshadowed in

:33:22.:33:25.

the White Paper and that was on recent temporary licence and these

:33:26.:33:30.

schemes are sometimes criticised. It is sometimes criticised even from

:33:31.:33:36.

our own benches possibly that prisoners can be released early from

:33:37.:33:41.

a sentence and it is often highlighted about a risk to the

:33:42.:33:44.

public, and I agree with those concerns, and it is right to

:33:45.:33:47.

highlight them, but it is also right where property challenge them as

:33:48.:33:52.

well. In fact being released on temporary licence has in excess of

:33:53.:33:59.

99% success rate. In 2015 there are 162 failures, and what is the

:34:00.:34:02.

definition of a failure? The definition of a failure as a

:34:03.:34:06.

prisoner who has breached his or her terms of release, committed a

:34:07.:34:09.

further offence or failed to turn up on time, but that equates to 49 out

:34:10.:34:19.

of 100,000, less than .5% and if you translate that into the reoffending

:34:20.:34:23.

statistics, I think we would all be pleased with those. I warmly support

:34:24.:34:27.

the measures that our governors will be having greater autonomy and how

:34:28.:34:34.

to roll out and prioritise the release on temporary licence. I am

:34:35.:34:37.

conscious that there are other experts who are waiting to speak so

:34:38.:34:40.

suffice it to say that I warmly welcome the measures set out in the

:34:41.:34:45.

bill and I fully support and I'm pleased to see that it has

:34:46.:34:53.

cross-party support as well. It is a pleasure to follow my

:34:54.:34:58.

honourable friend. I have been disappointed in listening to the

:34:59.:35:03.

debate to hear at present being disparaged so much, when actually

:35:04.:35:09.

prisoners pretty place. I think it is worth pointing out according to

:35:10.:35:13.

the Ministry of Justice own figures the longer people spend in prison

:35:14.:35:17.

the less likely they are to reoffend. The latest figures from

:35:18.:35:20.

the Ministry of Justice released in November 2016 show that while 60% of

:35:21.:35:24.

those released from a sentence of less than 12 months ago on to

:35:25.:35:28.

reoffend, those who have served a sentence of between 12 months and

:35:29.:35:32.

four years, the reoffending rate is 37%, and those who serve a sentence

:35:33.:35:37.

of four years to ten years, the reoffending rate is 24.7%, and those

:35:38.:35:44.

who serve sentences of ten years and more, is 15.6%. But in determinant

:35:45.:35:50.

sentences, the reoffending rate for those people released is 11.4%.

:35:51.:35:55.

Prison clearly are not the problem because the longer people are

:35:56.:35:57.

spending in their the less likely they are to reoffend, perhaps the

:35:58.:36:00.

problem is they are not spending long enough in prison, that seems to

:36:01.:36:05.

me to be the lesson from those figures. I have some sympathy with

:36:06.:36:08.

part of what the honourable gentleman is saying but would he

:36:09.:36:10.

accept that underneath those statistics that he has told us

:36:11.:36:14.

about, he is ignoring the nature of the offence, so for instance there

:36:15.:36:18.

are quite a lot of people serving very long sentences for murders,

:36:19.:36:29.

crimes of passion, that they may have committed only once in their

:36:30.:36:31.

life and are unlikely to go on to commit again. In any event, whether

:36:32.:36:34.

they go to prison or not. The problem with that is if we take the

:36:35.:36:37.

one to serve less than 12 months, if my honourable friend looks at the

:36:38.:36:40.

figures he will find that it is very difficult to be sent to prison for a

:36:41.:36:43.

first offence, for a short sentence. People who eventually are given

:36:44.:36:45.

short prison sentences have been given community sentence after

:36:46.:36:49.

community sentence after community sentence, and they have all worked,

:36:50.:36:52.

and the reason these people end up in prison on a short sentences

:36:53.:36:55.

because the courts eventually say they have no other option than to

:36:56.:36:58.

send them to prison because every other means of intervention has

:36:59.:37:03.

failed. The reoffending rate for that cohort of people who end up in

:37:04.:37:09.

prison on community sentences was 100%, said the fact that they have a

:37:10.:37:13.

reoffending rates when they leave prison of 60% is a greater triumph.

:37:14.:37:17.

I haven't got time to give away again. That is a greater triumph

:37:18.:37:21.

than shown by the community sentence for that cohort of people who end up

:37:22.:37:27.

in prison. The bill contains provisions to toughen up the current

:37:28.:37:30.

provision regarding the use of mobile phones and I am sick to death

:37:31.:37:35.

of seeing pictures of smiling criminals from within prison cells,

:37:36.:37:38.

surrounded by all kinds of creature comforts and ill gotten gains,

:37:39.:37:43.

courtesy of the use of mobile phones in prison. More concerning should be

:37:44.:37:47.

the use of phones to intimidate or it threaten victims or ensure the

:37:48.:37:51.

continuation of their crimes and so I welcome the steps the government

:37:52.:37:55.

are trying to take to deal with that particular scourge. I do have some

:37:56.:37:59.

concerns about extending the use of video links in certain cases, and

:38:00.:38:03.

I'm certainly not comfortable people using video commitment in all kinds

:38:04.:38:07.

of venues that are not courts and I shall certainly listen to the points

:38:08.:38:10.

made by those promoting this technology, but sometimes in the

:38:11.:38:13.

interest of justice saving a few pennies should not be the overriding

:38:14.:38:17.

factor. We also need to be very careful that when trying to protect

:38:18.:38:22.

victims we do not affect the scales of justice and end up with a

:38:23.:38:25.

situation where it is difficult for defendants to have a fair trial.

:38:26.:38:30.

Having a fair trial should be of paramount importance, just as

:38:31.:38:32.

dealing with those who are found guilty in an appropriate way is also

:38:33.:38:38.

essential. I am also not overly keen by the sound of the online

:38:39.:38:41.

conviction process, so I will be listening with interest to the types

:38:42.:38:47.

of offences this might cover. I know the magistrates Association have

:38:48.:38:49.

concerns about this as well and I hope they will be carefully

:38:50.:38:52.

considered. I am also concerned about the abolition of the local

:38:53.:38:57.

justice areas. These organised magistrates with their work in

:38:58.:39:00.

geographical locations and I understand some work can be done in

:39:01.:39:03.

different areas but there was something to be said for the

:39:04.:39:06.

argument that justice should be dispensed locally and I hope you

:39:07.:39:08.

don't end up with a situation where all kind of cases are being heard

:39:09.:39:14.

randomly all over the country for no good reason. I have a bit of a

:39:15.:39:20.

concern about the judicial appointments and this drive for

:39:21.:39:21.

diversity. Surely we should be interested in

:39:22.:39:30.

recruiting the best people? Surely it should be irrelevant whether they

:39:31.:39:35.

are men or women, black or white, Christian or Muslim, gay or

:39:36.:39:38.

straight. Surely we want the best person for the job, whether,

:39:39.:39:46.

irrespective, that is what equality means in this day and age. But is

:39:47.:39:52.

because they happen to the gay quarter box. Let's stick to

:39:53.:39:56.

appointing people on merit alone and ignoring other relevant factors

:39:57.:40:02.

about them. I want to focus in my brief contribution on what is

:40:03.:40:06.

missing from the bill. That is more important than in the bill. I would

:40:07.:40:13.

like to see, when prisoners are given a sentence, all the sentence

:40:14.:40:18.

given by the court is served but they certainly should not be

:40:19.:40:22.

automatically released halfway through their prison sentence, as is

:40:23.:40:26.

the case at the moment. It was a scandal when introduced. The

:40:27.:40:29.

Conservative Party were a public when the last Labour government

:40:30.:40:33.

introduced it but now we think it is wonderful to the market release

:40:34.:40:36.

people halfway through the sentence respectively of how badly they

:40:37.:40:40.

behave in prison. This is a point I want to focus on because I will

:40:41.:40:44.

certainly be tabling an amendment is later stage of this bill to make

:40:45.:40:48.

sure anybody who is a prisoner assaults a prison officer cannot be

:40:49.:40:50.

released halfway through their prison sentence automatically. We

:40:51.:40:56.

got to have some proper punishment for assaulting prison officers. It's

:40:57.:40:59.

the least was in officers deserve, that kind of support and one of the

:41:00.:41:05.

reasons we have this breakdown of order is because prisoners now

:41:06.:41:09.

doesn't matter how badly they behave, they will be released

:41:10.:41:13.

halfway through the sentence and all we have our extra days given for

:41:14.:41:20.

assault on prison officers. As I indicated to the honourable The Deep

:41:21.:41:23.

Halifax who has done a great job on this and she should be commended

:41:24.:41:27.

greatly all the work she has done, the average number of extra days

:41:28.:41:34.

given for a sexed -- assaulting prison officers was 20 days and last

:41:35.:41:37.

year it was 16 days. That is utterly unacceptable. I am sure the prison

:41:38.:41:42.

officers Association will welcome the government saying, we accept the

:41:43.:41:46.

case that if you're a prisoner and you assault a prison officer, your

:41:47.:41:50.

opportunity for automatic early release halfway through the sentence

:41:51.:41:54.

will be ended and your position will be judged on whether or not you are

:41:55.:41:57.

perceived to be released out into the public. Very quickly, thank you

:41:58.:42:06.

to Deputy Speaker. I prison sentences should be the equivalent

:42:07.:42:11.

of someone that does that outside of prison at the very least. I am very

:42:12.:42:19.

grateful for My Honourable Friend or his support. I only need each more

:42:20.:42:25.

and then I will be in business, so I will put my horrible friend Boz

:42:26.:42:29.

Magnin down as a likely supporter of my amendment. The House of Commons

:42:30.:42:34.

library briefing paper confirms there were 6,000 for hundred and 30

:42:35.:42:39.

assaults on prison staff, 761 of which are considered serious. This

:42:40.:42:43.

was an 82% rise on the number of assaults on staff in the thousand

:42:44.:42:49.

and six and a 40% increase on 2015. As in officers have a very hard and

:42:50.:42:52.

at times dangerous job and I am sick of hearing about pathetic editions

:42:53.:42:56.

of the sentences for prisoners who sold them and so I hope the

:42:57.:43:01.

government will do with this issue in the remaining stages of the bill.

:43:02.:43:06.

I would also like to see an amendment to limit the use of fixed

:43:07.:43:09.

term recalls because when prisoners are released early, they don't even

:43:10.:43:12.

go back to serve the remainder of their sentence when they are

:43:13.:43:15.

convicted of a further crime. They just go back for 28 days, what I

:43:16.:43:20.

consider to be a mini break, back in the present, where they can usually

:43:21.:43:26.

keep an eye on the kernel activities in prison knowing they will be sent

:43:27.:43:30.

back the 28 days. I hope this is something the government will deal

:43:31.:43:34.

with as well. Something else I would recommend is given consideration is

:43:35.:43:37.

to make judges accountable for their decisions. Where they don't hand

:43:38.:43:42.

down custodial sentences which would be justifiable and possibly even

:43:43.:43:46.

expected and where the offender then goes on to reoffend. I don't think

:43:47.:43:51.

any to see what the consequences of this information should be but it

:43:52.:43:56.

should be clear to many that where a judge consistently allows offenders

:43:57.:43:59.

to avoid prison and those offenders go on to make other sufferers as a

:44:00.:44:03.

result of their continuing crime spree, they should be accountable to

:44:04.:44:07.

the judge and they should be consequences for that judge as well.

:44:08.:44:11.

I would also like to table an amendment to allow magistrates of

:44:12.:44:15.

the sentence people to prison up to 12 months for one offence included

:44:16.:44:20.

six months. We have a lot in place to do that, it needs a commencement

:44:21.:44:23.

date. The government have been promising this for years now and

:44:24.:44:28.

still haven't got round to doing it. Perhaps the Minister can tell us

:44:29.:44:33.

when he intends to activate this particular part of government

:44:34.:44:38.

policy. I would also like to recommend increasing the age of

:44:39.:44:41.

magistrates and judges to 75 and will be tabling an amendment to that

:44:42.:44:45.

effect as well. From the 1st of December 2016, the age limit for

:44:46.:44:51.

jurors was increased to 75 and I can't see any difference being able

:44:52.:44:55.

to tell difference between a juror being able to see the guilt or

:44:56.:45:04.

innocence and surely that rationale applies to both. Finally, I am not a

:45:05.:45:12.

fan of release on temporary licence. If prisons are only serving half of

:45:13.:45:16.

their sentence, believes they can do is but half in prison rather than

:45:17.:45:21.

being released in advance of the half they are automatically released

:45:22.:45:25.

from and it is ludicrous to have time out of prison, countered as

:45:26.:45:31.

time in prison and I am considering tabling amendments on this. I will

:45:32.:45:38.

not give way because I want to give other people the chance to speak. I

:45:39.:45:42.

would also like to place on record my continued interest in seeing male

:45:43.:45:44.

and female offenders treated equally by the courts. They are not only for

:45:45.:45:50.

sentencing purposes but in all aspects of the Criminal Justice

:45:51.:45:55.

System as I think it has been increased that women are treated

:45:56.:45:58.

more leniently than men currently for every single category of

:45:59.:46:02.

offence, man is my lucky to be sent to prison and a woman and in the

:46:03.:46:05.

interest of equality, this matter needs to be looked at. I am

:46:06.:46:11.

delighted, I want to see that where we should be looking after women in

:46:12.:46:16.

the kernel justice system is by the abolition of sharia councils which

:46:17.:46:19.

terribly discriminate against women and yet the government sits idly by

:46:20.:46:24.

and allows that to continue, which is a disgrace in this country. On a

:46:25.:46:29.

final point, on a more positive note, I notice the Secretary of

:46:30.:46:35.

State for Justice and she said last month, the wrong way to address the

:46:36.:46:37.

problem would be to shorten sentences or release offenders

:46:38.:46:41.

earlier, that would be reckless and endanger the public. It would

:46:42.:46:45.

restrict the freedom of the independent judicially to choose the

:46:46.:46:48.

most appropriate sentence for each offender. I couldn't agree more, she

:46:49.:46:53.

is on the right lines and she sticks to that principle, she will be doing

:46:54.:46:56.

OK and I hope to be able to support this bill by strengthening its inner

:46:57.:47:08.

meaning stages. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, it is a privilege, as

:47:09.:47:12.

always, to follow my humble friend, the member for Shipley, and I look

:47:13.:47:16.

very much the supporting him in some of those amendments that he put

:47:17.:47:22.

forward and foreshadowed in his speech. I must, at the outset of my

:47:23.:47:31.

remarks, draw the House's attention to my entries in the registers of

:47:32.:47:35.

members interests as I am on the role of visitors, a nonprofit

:47:36.:47:42.

dissing solicitor now but earlier on in my career, I had the conduct of

:47:43.:47:46.

many personal injury matters and it is on the issue of part five of this

:47:47.:47:52.

bill, which deals with whiplash, which I want to restrict my remarks.

:47:53.:47:59.

There are some things to commend in this Bill and the welcome, but the

:48:00.:48:08.

one area where I do have concerns with the proposals relating to

:48:09.:48:13.

whiplash. Of course, it is completely understandable that the

:48:14.:48:21.

government would want to try and root out fraudulent whiplash claims

:48:22.:48:26.

and I'm sure everybody would agree with that, but I'm not convinced

:48:27.:48:32.

that the proposals which I set out in part five will assist in that.

:48:33.:48:40.

Now, I welcome the fact that the government has abandoned some of its

:48:41.:48:43.

more extreme proposals but were contained within the consultation

:48:44.:48:50.

paper, but we have nevertheless finished up with a set of proposals

:48:51.:48:56.

which I very much doubt will have the desired effect. There is no

:48:57.:49:04.

doubt that if fraudulent claims are submitted and not spotted, then as

:49:05.:49:07.

we result of the damages which are paid out, that will have the effect

:49:08.:49:13.

of increasing premiums. It is perfectly clear that that is the

:49:14.:49:17.

case. But I am not convinced that the way to reduce premiums is to

:49:18.:49:23.

artificially restrict the level of damages payable to someone who is

:49:24.:49:30.

found liable for the tort of negligence. This has nothing to do

:49:31.:49:36.

with controlling public expenditure. It is all about, we are told,

:49:37.:49:46.

rooting out false, fraudulent claims and trying, as a consequence

:49:47.:49:49.

thereof, to reduce insurance premiums. I would put forward the

:49:50.:49:57.

suggestion that if the government is really keen to reduce insurance

:49:58.:50:02.

premiums are one way to do it would be to reduce the insurance premium

:50:03.:50:09.

tax. It seems to me to be rather perverse that we should be taxing

:50:10.:50:15.

those who seek to do the right thing. I can understand the argument

:50:16.:50:23.

for taxing goods or behaviour which are perceived and not be bad, but

:50:24.:50:30.

it's less easy to understand the rationale of taxing those who seek

:50:31.:50:35.

to do the right thing by protecting themselves and taking care of their

:50:36.:50:41.

future by taking out insurance. Of course, there are already received

:50:42.:50:46.

yours in place to reduce the potential for fraudulent claims

:50:47.:50:53.

being successful. I am all in favour of taking the strongest possible

:50:54.:50:58.

action to root out those who try to deceive and con the system. But I

:50:59.:51:03.

think perhaps we should have given more time for the existing measures

:51:04.:51:08.

which it is not many years since they were introduced, to give them

:51:09.:51:13.

more time to work, and there is already evidence that they are

:51:14.:51:17.

working. Number of whiplash claims as reported to the compensation

:51:18.:51:30.

recovery unit at the DWP has fallen from 511,111 in 2010 and 2011 to

:51:31.:51:42.

330,003 and 65 in 2015 and 2016. The expression that we use is whiplash

:51:43.:51:46.

related road traffic offences because some of them are described,

:51:47.:51:51.

it is true, as upper torso strain caused by shunt by vehicle. Now,

:51:52.:51:58.

that is a whiplash related claim. It wouldn't count as a whiplash claim

:51:59.:52:02.

but we think they are the same thing so we reckon the figures show a 50%

:52:03.:52:08.

increase over the last ten years the time when road traffic accidents

:52:09.:52:15.

generally have been falling. Clearly there are issues around the

:52:16.:52:22.

definition of what actually constitutes a whiplash injury. The

:52:23.:52:25.

fact remains that in the definition of whiplash used by the sea are you,

:52:26.:52:35.

it shows a 34% fall between 2010, 2011 and 2015, 20 16. So, regardless

:52:36.:52:48.

of the number of claims, if it is valid appropriate damages that

:52:49.:52:53.

should be paid. The introduction of tariffs will have a number of

:52:54.:52:59.

effects, particularly when combined with the proposed increase in the

:53:00.:53:04.

small claims which I accepted not within this Bill, but as is

:53:05.:53:10.

foreshadowed in the proposals put forward by the government. The first

:53:11.:53:17.

effect would be that the level of damages will hardly ever be correct

:53:18.:53:24.

and the government recognised this in the provisions that they are

:53:25.:53:28.

proposing. It is a rather clumsy way to try and finesse the basic scheme,

:53:29.:53:37.

recognising that the damages will not be the appropriate level. There

:53:38.:53:43.

will, I think, be inevitably an increase in the number of litigants

:53:44.:53:49.

in person and that raises questions as to how the courts will hope with

:53:50.:53:57.

that and whether or not, for example, the portal which I

:53:58.:54:04.

understand is being proposed should be the mechanism by which the system

:54:05.:54:10.

is accessed, is actually intended for use by litigants in person.

:54:11.:54:16.

Claims management companies, of course, will have a good day as they

:54:17.:54:24.

look to expand their operations in the light of these proposals and I

:54:25.:54:28.

fear that there will inevitably be an increase in the number of

:54:29.:54:36.

nuisance telephone calls. And if Government feel that insurance

:54:37.:54:40.

premiums are a problem, that is by nothing compared with the problem of

:54:41.:54:48.

nuisance telephone calls and I am sure I'm not alone amongst MPs in

:54:49.:54:57.

being able to say that from my own in-box of e-mails, I hardly ever get

:54:58.:55:04.

a complaint about I shurns premiums ---ence shurns premiums, whereas I

:55:05.:55:10.

get many calls about the number of nuisance telephone calls. The other

:55:11.:55:15.

problem that there will be as a result of the introduction of

:55:16.:55:21.

tariffs is it will mean that the same will attract different level of

:55:22.:55:27.

compensation dependant on whether the injury was suffered as the

:55:28.:55:32.

result of a road traffic accident or in the workplace. Now, I am not sure

:55:33.:55:38.

how that can be justified. But I look forward to hearing the

:55:39.:55:45.

explanation as to how that could be justified to the injured person.

:55:46.:55:51.

There will ineve thely also be a transfer of cases from qualified

:55:52.:56:01.

legal practitioners to companies and thousands of high street practises

:56:02.:56:07.

will face closures, or at the very least job losses. There will also be

:56:08.:56:18.

unintended consequences. Such as, for example, access to justice have

:56:19.:56:24.

pointed out an injured party would be entitled to ?3725 for a neck

:56:25.:56:31.

injury lasting 24 months under the small claims track, but ?6750 for a

:56:32.:56:40.

neck injury lasting just one month longer outside the small claims

:56:41.:56:45.

track. So there will actually be an inaccepty for the small minority who

:56:46.:56:49.

-- incentive for the small minority who do try and play the system to

:56:50.:56:53.

exaggerate their claims. In summary, why should the vast majority of

:56:54.:57:00.

innocent, law-abiding citizens be penalised for the actions of the

:57:01.:57:03.

dishonest few? Thank you very much. I welcome this

:57:04.:57:16.

bill which is at the heart of preventing more crime and keeping

:57:17.:57:21.

the public safe. Prisons are the end of the line for maintaining law and

:57:22.:57:25.

order in this country and we expect an awful lot of them. Of course

:57:26.:57:28.

prevention is always better than cure. We need to redouble our

:57:29.:57:33.

efforts cracking down on drugs which so often leads to a life of crime.

:57:34.:57:38.

We need to continue to provide more and more ladders of opportunity for

:57:39.:57:43.

people to engage in legitimate, worthwhile and rewarding study and

:57:44.:57:48.

work. And of course, rehabilitation in prison cannot take place unless

:57:49.:57:52.

the environment is both safe and secure and it is absolutely right

:57:53.:57:56.

that those words appear on page one of the bill. Now, if we are to

:57:57.:58:03.

reform and rehabilitate offenders and prepare prisoners for life

:58:04.:58:06.

outside prison, there are a number of areas we need to focus on. Many

:58:07.:58:13.

prisoners arrive in prison with serious mental health issues and

:58:14.:58:16.

making sure the best mental health care is available must be at the

:58:17.:58:20.

heart of the prison regime. And I welcome the moves towards joint

:58:21.:58:24.

commissioning, so that prison governors are more involved with the

:58:25.:58:28.

mental health care being delivered within their prisons. I was

:58:29.:58:33.

delighted that the current Secretary of State agreed to take forward the

:58:34.:58:39.

review to keep prisoner relationships and family healthy and

:58:40.:58:43.

strong where it is safe to do so. Some prisons like in bridge end, as

:58:44.:58:48.

we heard from the wonderful speech from the lady from bridge end are

:58:49.:58:51.

doing this work well. If prisons are to be places of reform, we cannot

:58:52.:58:57.

ignore the reality that will support a relationship with at least one

:58:58.:59:02.

person is often indispensable to prisons to get through the sentence

:59:03.:59:08.

well and achieve rehabilitation. It's not only family members who can

:59:09.:59:13.

provide this. Other supportive relationships can make a

:59:14.:59:18.

significance... Will my friend give way? Yes. I thank my honourable

:59:19.:59:24.

friend for giving way. There's been huge advances by Jim Davidson's

:59:25.:59:30.

charity, Care after Combat with military veterans, supported be I

:59:31.:59:33.

the Government. These men -- supported by the Government. These

:59:34.:59:37.

mentors, over 50, have gone into prisons. Have been friendly with

:59:38.:59:42.

prisoners and put them on the road to decent rehabilitation. It is a

:59:43.:59:46.

great charity and I am grateful for the work done for the military. I

:59:47.:59:49.

couldn't agree more with my honourable friend. I met Jim

:59:50.:59:55.

Davidson on a number of occasions and I thoroughly commend the work of

:59:56.:00:01.

care After Combat throughout the Prison Service.fyly work which

:00:02.:00:05.

brings prisoners face-to-face with their enduring responsibility to

:00:06.:00:09.

families left in the community is indispensable to the culture we need

:00:10.:00:14.

to develop in our system. I welcome the commitment by the ministry of

:00:15.:00:19.

jus fis to measure the qual -- justice to measure the equality of

:00:20.:00:24.

relationships. During family relationships lead to many prisons

:00:25.:00:28.

being able to access accommodation on release, which would otherwise be

:00:29.:00:33.

unavailable to them if those relationships had broken down.

:00:34.:00:39.

I think there's a huge amount of consensus about maintaining family

:00:40.:00:42.

relationships for prisons. Would he agree that it should be that we

:00:43.:00:47.

should not remove family contact as a penalty, where other forms of

:00:48.:00:50.

sanction are available for other forms of bad behaviour. It is unfair

:00:51.:00:55.

to the family members and defeating the object that the honourable

:00:56.:00:59.

member has talked about, about maintaining contact with their

:01:00.:01:02.

families. I very much share the sentiments of the honourable lady.

:01:03.:01:06.

My instincts are with her on this issue. I will say, having talked

:01:07.:01:11.

extensively to prison officers about this issue, on occasions they have

:01:12.:01:15.

limited levers that they can use. I am with her. I think the family

:01:16.:01:18.

relationships are really important. And are often, you know, powerful

:01:19.:01:25.

forces for good to about dhully help the prison -- to actually help the

:01:26.:01:29.

prisons achieve what they are trying to achieve. Accommodation is the

:01:30.:01:33.

base camp of rehabilitation. We are unlikely to make any progress

:01:34.:01:39.

without it. It is concerning that some local authorities are frankly

:01:40.:01:43.

discriminatory towards ex-offenders. Ex-offenders should not be given

:01:44.:01:46.

preferential treatment, but neither should they be treated worse than

:01:47.:01:52.

others seeking accommodation. And I hope that Her Majesty's prison and

:01:53.:01:56.

Probation Service, as it will be called on 1st April, will look at

:01:57.:02:01.

the cost of prisoners phoning home. Many who have mobile phones have

:02:02.:02:05.

them in order to speak to their wives, husbands, partners and

:02:06.:02:08.

children. We need to make sure there's good access to legitimate

:02:09.:02:12.

use of prison telephones, which are affordable and available to prisons.

:02:13.:02:16.

I am a fan of the prison voice mail initiative, which is spreading in

:02:17.:02:20.

our prisons. A daughter managed to leave a message of her first violin

:02:21.:02:25.

piece for her father to hear on a prison voice mail, for example. I am

:02:26.:02:29.

concerned that innocent family members... Of course I will give

:02:30.:02:33.

way. I thank my honourable friend for the elabration of the points

:02:34.:02:37.

that he's making on this important subject. Would he agree on the issue

:02:38.:02:42.

of housing and released prisoners that many prisoners do suggestle to

:02:43.:02:47.

get on -- struggle to get on to the housing list in various local

:02:48.:02:51.

authorities? What would he suggest as a way to incense tiez local

:02:52.:02:55.

authorities to try and give priority need to those prisoners who have

:02:56.:02:58.

served their sentence and need a bit of support to prevent them getting

:02:59.:03:03.

into homelessness? Well, I What I would say is that at the very least

:03:04.:03:07.

we just need fairness across the system. And what concerns me is some

:03:08.:03:15.

local authorities the who just have a blanket approach of telling

:03:16.:03:19.

ex-offenders to wait a couple of years... One second, when I have

:03:20.:03:24.

finished responding. My local authority has a very good policy.

:03:25.:03:28.

They are concerned about anti-social behaviour. They don't mind if you

:03:29.:03:32.

are an ex-offender or not, they want to know you are a good tenant. So

:03:33.:03:38.

long as you are a good tenant they don't discriminate against you. On

:03:39.:03:42.

this point will he welcome, like me, the third reading of the

:03:43.:03:48.

homelessness reduction bill, where there'll be the duty to provide

:03:49.:03:51.

advisory services from local authorities to those who have been

:03:52.:03:56.

in prefon? Does he -- who have previous ln been in prison? So many

:03:57.:04:02.

things we want to do, education, keeping family links strong, depend

:04:03.:04:05.

naturally on having somewhere to live. I am concerned that innocent

:04:06.:04:12.

family members of off fenders are unfairly penalised by insurance

:04:13.:04:16.

companies, either withdrawing insurance cover, or making it

:04:17.:04:23.

expensive. In some cases this happens while the prisoner is in

:04:24.:04:28.

prison. It is hard to see how there will be an additional risk to the

:04:29.:04:33.

insurer in those cases. The Ministry of Justice needs to make its views

:04:34.:04:38.

clear about this issue. I am grateful to the Salvation Army for

:04:39.:04:43.

highlighting this issue in the recent edition of their what Sean.

:04:44.:04:48.

The previous secretary -- of their magazine. The previous Secretary of

:04:49.:04:52.

State was right to get prison education reviewed. We need much

:04:53.:04:58.

better baseline assessment of levels of literacy, numeracy and other key

:04:59.:05:02.

skills on arrival in prison and real determination not to waste a single

:05:03.:05:07.

day in prison, making progress in those areas. We also need a culture

:05:08.:05:12.

change, so that prisons become places of education across the whole

:05:13.:05:16.

establishment. And one of the ways to achieve this is through much

:05:17.:05:21.

greater use of mentors. For example, with the Shannon trust reading

:05:22.:05:29.

schemes or by using numeracy schemes like one-to-one maths. Some of our

:05:30.:05:36.

best governors, like at Wandsworth, have accelerated this progress and

:05:37.:05:40.

formalised the mentoring arrangements with prisoners who have

:05:41.:05:43.

level three qualifications and are able to help other prisoners. The

:05:44.:05:48.

Ministry of Justice is to be commended for realising the vital

:05:49.:05:51.

importance of making sure that prisoners leave prison with a job to

:05:52.:05:56.

go to. Now, this is a huge challenge and we are a long way from achieving

:05:57.:05:59.

it. But no longer is purposeful activity

:06:00.:06:05.

just to be about keeping prisoners occupied. Worthwhile as that is.

:06:06.:06:10.

Work and training in prison needs to be related to getting and keeping a

:06:11.:06:15.

job on release. And I welcome the focus on prison apprenticeships. I

:06:16.:06:19.

hope there'll be more properly focussed release on temporary

:06:20.:06:27.

license as the decline from 529,000 incidents to 333,000 in 2015, is a

:06:28.:06:30.

great concern. And it will be good to have an

:06:31.:06:35.

update on how Government and the wider public sector are doing with

:06:36.:06:41.

the ban the box initiative. Companies like Boots, Barclays, core

:06:42.:06:45.

rillyian, land securities, Virgin Trains and many others are leading

:06:46.:06:50.

the way and we need other firms to join them and we need to bring

:06:51.:06:54.

employers who are not as enlightened up to the mark. I am very pleased to

:06:55.:07:00.

see that the bill does not alter the statutory provision set out in the

:07:01.:07:07.

prison act 1952. Now chaplains play an important role in prisons and

:07:08.:07:12.

recent research on Catholic prisoners found over 90% trusted

:07:13.:07:17.

their chaplain. The cost of accommodation for clergy can lead to

:07:18.:07:21.

vacancies and I hope the Churches will look at some shared

:07:22.:07:25.

appointments making use of existing housing or invest further in housing

:07:26.:07:30.

for this important ministry. I am extremely grateful to the benefactor

:07:31.:07:34.

who has provided at no cost to the pub lib purse thousands of - -

:07:35.:07:39.

public purse of thousands of the copies for the devotional guide for

:07:40.:07:43.

prisoners. Chaplains should be aware of this excellent free resource. I

:07:44.:07:48.

believe it will have a significant impact in our prisons and beyond,

:07:49.:07:53.

given the links between rehabilitation and redemption. ...

:07:54.:08:03.

If we video have a Probation Service working hand in hand with our

:08:04.:08:07.

prisons. I hope that the Probation Service

:08:08.:08:11.

will look to inspiring examples of what can be done by initiatives like

:08:12.:08:16.

jobs, friends and houses in Blackpool. It is an initiative

:08:17.:08:22.

between Lancashire Police and Blackpool Council and is providing

:08:23.:08:27.

construction skills training, accommodation, employment,

:08:28.:08:29.

friendship, r, as well as strengthening the well being of

:08:30.:08:33.

those it serves in practical ways. I have explained the model to the

:08:34.:08:40.

Chief Constable and crime commissioner in Bedfordshire and

:08:41.:08:44.

senior judges in Luton. I hope they will be inspired to have such an

:08:45.:08:47.

initiative in my own county. It is an honour to follow the

:08:48.:08:55.

distinguished former prisons minister and like him, I would like

:08:56.:08:59.

to combine my remarks to pass one of the bill but I'm tempted by the

:09:00.:09:03.

presence of My Honourable Friend, the courts and tribunals minister

:09:04.:09:07.

because of my permission, I'd like to thank him for a very enjoyable

:09:08.:09:10.

hour that I spend in his company last week, piloting the excellent

:09:11.:09:17.

provisions of part two and part four of this Bill. I was able, during

:09:18.:09:23.

that hour, to both apply the divorce and apply for probate, but that

:09:24.:09:27.

which were, I'm glad to say, fictitious elements which pleased my

:09:28.:09:34.

husband and parents. It was a mercifully short, easy and painless

:09:35.:09:40.

application process and one that is warmly to be welcomed and I commend

:09:41.:09:46.

him for all his work on this. The prisons and courts Bill is a note of

:09:47.:09:50.

hope in the fairly dark places that are our prisons. It is very welcome,

:09:51.:09:55.

but in its scope and content. I follow such a line of distinguished

:09:56.:10:00.

speakers that I'd like to confine myself, if I can, the three points.

:10:01.:10:05.

The first is the abilities in. 99% of prisoners are released, whether

:10:06.:10:11.

the member for Shipley approves of that or not, they are members of our

:10:12.:10:17.

community yet over 50% of released prisoners go on to commit further

:10:18.:10:21.

offences. It is in all of our interests to break the cycle of

:10:22.:10:25.

reoffending and do what we can to be ability of them. As the Lord

:10:26.:10:29.

Chancellor herself told us earlier, currently the only legislation we

:10:30.:10:32.

have to build on is the prisons Act of 1952 which was itself a

:10:33.:10:37.

consolidating piece of piecemeal legislation which gives prisons one

:10:38.:10:41.

rule and one role only, to hold those sentenced by the courts. Much

:10:42.:10:46.

good work has been done by those in the sector for many years to stop

:10:47.:10:50.

prisons simply warehousing offenders. It's so well, that the

:10:51.:10:55.

provisions included in clause one of the bill establishes the first time

:10:56.:11:02.

a much broader statutory purpose which emphasises reforming and

:11:03.:11:05.

rehabilitating offenders, preparing prisoners for life outside prison

:11:06.:11:09.

and maintaining an environment that is safe and secure. It is clear and

:11:10.:11:15.

unequivocal in its purpose and it provides a point of focus for all

:11:16.:11:19.

who work in the prison community. The Minister will have noted the

:11:20.:11:23.

considerable pressure from both sides of this House during the

:11:24.:11:25.

course of this debate to incorporate mental health in some way on the

:11:26.:11:32.

face of the bill. These provisions will be supplemented by new

:11:33.:11:36.

standards for governance, increasing their autonomy is essential if we

:11:37.:11:40.

want to see genuine improvements. I know from the many conversations

:11:41.:11:45.

I've had with the governor in my constituency that giving him greater

:11:46.:11:49.

control, particularly in the decisions on hiring staff, will in

:11:50.:11:55.

itself be transformative. The Bill lays out clearly Secretary of State

:11:56.:11:59.

's personal accountability for the prison system and I was very

:12:00.:12:02.

interested to hear the exchange with my Right Honourable Friend, the

:12:03.:12:07.

member for Beaconsfield earlier, but on experience but ministers of law

:12:08.:12:12.

would lead me to believe this will be as simple and my previous

:12:13.:12:17.

experience as a civil servant would encourage me to see the Secretary of

:12:18.:12:21.

State is being brave, though I mean that in a good way, rather than a

:12:22.:12:27.

negative way. In taking the power upon herself. Personally I am very

:12:28.:12:33.

comfortable with judges considering whether or not a filling prison

:12:34.:12:38.

should be considered by the courts but I welcome the fact that the Lord

:12:39.:12:43.

Chancellor is taking these powers upon herself with the very first

:12:44.:12:47.

time. I think that's a real proof of how clearly she feels this is

:12:48.:12:54.

important. The bill also contains welcome requirements on the Lord

:12:55.:12:57.

Chancellor to respond to but the ombudsman. Clause one of the bill

:12:58.:13:01.

also adds to the remote of Her Majesty 's Inspectorate of prisons

:13:02.:13:06.

and puts the prisons and probation ombudsman on a statutory footing,

:13:07.:13:08.

this is something for which the Justice committee has been calling

:13:09.:13:13.

for some years. Secondly, the bill brings in new powers of the rising

:13:14.:13:22.

Republican locations providers to disrupt the use of lawful mobile

:13:23.:13:27.

phones in prisons. We know that in 2016, nearly 13,000 mobile phones

:13:28.:13:31.

and Sim cards were found in prisons, almost double that that were found

:13:32.:13:38.

three years previously. A recent Channel format documentary showed

:13:39.:13:41.

viewers how easily they can be brought in by visitors who concealed

:13:42.:13:44.

them in Mars bars for example. The prevalence of mobile phones presents

:13:45.:13:50.

a real security risk by increasing the amount of organised crime that

:13:51.:13:53.

can be carried out on a daily basis in prison. It's absolutely critical

:13:54.:13:59.

that we deal with this. But powers in this Bill will lead to real

:14:00.:14:04.

change. Thirdly, alongside the increase in mobile phones, we've

:14:05.:14:09.

seen a horrific rise in the use of psychoactive substances. We don't

:14:10.:14:15.

have recorded incidence before 2015. In 2015 there was 1385 instances of

:14:16.:14:20.

these drugs being used. We don't have the updated figures sadly that

:14:21.:14:23.

we know that these drugs are everywhere in prisons. Indeed many

:14:24.:14:29.

prisons have a drug-free way and assume that the rest of the prison

:14:30.:14:36.

is not drug-free. They present a real problem and represent a

:14:37.:14:40.

deterioration in behaviour in prisons which decent rest goes to

:14:41.:14:44.

show. These drugs make prisoners more aggressive and threat other is,

:14:45.:14:51.

and depressed, and thus a real threat to themselves. The safety of

:14:52.:14:54.

our prison officers is a sensual. MPS are making that increasingly

:14:55.:14:58.

more difficult to ensure. Prison officers need to have the power to

:14:59.:15:03.

test for these drugs as well as any new ones which we subsequently

:15:04.:15:07.

identify. I welcome the provision in the bill to do exactly this. No

:15:08.:15:11.

longer will secondary legislation be needed to rush to keep up with new

:15:12.:15:17.

drugs as they appear. I'm aware from my conversations with her that the

:15:18.:15:20.

Lord Chancellor wants to go down in history as strong prison reformer.

:15:21.:15:25.

I'm looking forward, as are my colleagues on the Justice committee,

:15:26.:15:29.

to seeing real change in prisons under her stewardship. It's a great

:15:30.:15:39.

pleasure to speak in this debate. I intend to focus on part one as well.

:15:40.:15:43.

As stated in the prisons Bill, we must aim to protect the public,

:15:44.:15:50.

rehabilitating offenders and prepare prisoners outside life and minty in

:15:51.:15:53.

an environment that is safe and secure. I have great pleasure in

:15:54.:15:56.

sitting on the joint committee for human rights and under the excellent

:15:57.:16:00.

chairmanship of the Right Honourable ember of Camberwell and Peckham.

:16:01.:16:05.

Within the committee, I have been appointed to the role of raconteur

:16:06.:16:08.

on mental health and our Christian credit being about self-inflicted

:16:09.:16:11.

deaths in prisons based on the Harris report of 2015. Like my Right

:16:12.:16:17.

Honourable Friend said earlier, I've been very conscious that we have had

:16:18.:16:24.

reports such as the 1NI21, Corston report in 2007 on women in prisons

:16:25.:16:30.

and then of course more recently, the Harris report in 2015 on suicide

:16:31.:16:35.

and young prisoners. All of these excellent reports have merit and

:16:36.:16:39.

have been welcomed yet we still find ourselves in the situation where

:16:40.:16:44.

more people are digging their lives in prison, 12 women and 107 men in

:16:45.:16:50.

the last year alone. In my role, I've visited many prisons and the

:16:51.:16:53.

first point to note is that prison should be, and is a case of

:16:54.:16:59.

punishment. It does however have its challenges and response abilities

:17:00.:17:02.

within human rights. I would like to explore a few of these. For me, it

:17:03.:17:08.

seems strong leadership is vital as good practice needs to come from the

:17:09.:17:11.

top and then cascade through the system. I welcomed the proposed

:17:12.:17:17.

increase in numbers of prison officers as it is undeniable that

:17:18.:17:20.

system is stretched. We must make sure the proper training is given to

:17:21.:17:25.

these new officers but we also need to consider existing officers who

:17:26.:17:29.

may for example become demoralised in their work and ensure they are

:17:30.:17:34.

aware and adhere to new standards whilst being fully supported and

:17:35.:17:39.

trained with your expectations. It will necessitate Arik cultural

:17:40.:17:43.

change, a change of attitude and behaviour which requires investment,

:17:44.:17:50.

not just that increasing staffing levels. I will give a simple example

:17:51.:17:54.

that is nothing about money, disco factors. In one prison with hard

:17:55.:17:59.

evidence where an orange file is used if you are suspected of having

:18:00.:18:04.

a mental health issue. Of course no one wants to be branded as having

:18:05.:18:08.

issues and so prisoners are reluctant to seek medical help in

:18:09.:18:11.

case others see them with the orange folder. With a little forethought,

:18:12.:18:16.

there is a simple solution around good practice. Why not use a file

:18:17.:18:20.

the same colour as any other is like no extra cost but it would deal

:18:21.:18:23.

sensitively with the prisoners needs. My first visit our prison, I

:18:24.:18:29.

was struck by the amount of banging on doors in cells and at one point,

:18:30.:18:34.

it was so unbearably loud with the prisoners striking the wall with his

:18:35.:18:39.

Chair and shouting at the top of his voice. What concerned me though was

:18:40.:18:44.

that the cell was shared. Imagine being the person who had to share

:18:45.:18:48.

that sell with someone kicking off like that and imagine the impact

:18:49.:18:51.

that would have on your own lobbying? At that time, I asked the

:18:52.:18:56.

officer what the problem was. They said it was because the yard time

:18:57.:19:00.

had been stopped because of the weather. I asked them how often that

:19:01.:19:04.

happened and they said it happened a lot. Also pointing out that some

:19:05.:19:09.

prisoners would kick off at night, waking up the whole floor. Nobody

:19:10.:19:14.

gets any sleep and the next day, they are all irritable. The problem

:19:15.:19:20.

just goes on. We must ensure that enough exercise and association time

:19:21.:19:24.

is given and other time in the cell must not be excessive. I welcome the

:19:25.:19:28.

fact that more officers will make this possible but please, please, we

:19:29.:19:33.

must consider time outside of the cell, even if it is raining, as

:19:34.:19:36.

frustration and anger is clear if this is not allowed. There's a lot

:19:37.:19:41.

that needs to be done and I welcome the bill as it seeks to reform and

:19:42.:19:46.

rehabilitate offenders but let us not underestimate the challenge of

:19:47.:19:50.

the culture that exists in the prisons. Let's not deny the fact

:19:51.:19:53.

that drugs are available, but there is a workforce that needs

:19:54.:19:57.

reinvigorating, but a gang culture exists and that for some, it is just

:19:58.:20:05.

a way of life. I've heard examples. I will give way. I thank My

:20:06.:20:12.

Honourable Friend for the compelling points but given that suicide rates

:20:13.:20:14.

are now at their highest since records began in the late 70s, would

:20:15.:20:19.

she agree that the best way to address the many important points

:20:20.:20:23.

she has made would be to make sure the mental and physical needs of

:20:24.:20:28.

prisoners are met is on the face of the bill as part of the purpose of

:20:29.:20:34.

prison? Thank you for the intervention. I am going to come

:20:35.:20:38.

onto suggestions that I have next. I've heard examples of returnees

:20:39.:20:44.

walking through the doors and winking at officers and saying, it's

:20:45.:20:49.

me again. Equally, I've heard harrowing stories of prisoners with

:20:50.:20:53.

and all health issues and learning disabilities who have no idea why

:20:54.:20:57.

they are there. Of course they will find themselves in prison with

:20:58.:21:00.

mental health issues for several reasons. It could be triggered for

:21:01.:21:05.

example by the use of new psychotic substances, there be an existing

:21:06.:21:12.

condition with drugs or alcohol, may be an unidentified health issue and

:21:13.:21:18.

there is increasing evidence that veterans are entering the prison

:21:19.:21:21.

system with mental health issues, often with too much pride to admit

:21:22.:21:24.

there is a problem, ultimately taking their own life. Organisations

:21:25.:21:31.

such as care after combat are working to tackle this and we need

:21:32.:21:38.

to identify this before such tragedy occurs, educating officers and

:21:39.:21:43.

others on these issues. We must insure that a mental health

:21:44.:21:47.

assessment is thoroughly carried out on arrival and then is ongoing. But

:21:48.:21:52.

we have good, strong leadership, that we increase our investment in

:21:53.:21:56.

terms of people, resources and training, but existing officers are

:21:57.:22:02.

reinvigorated and trained and that exercise time and association time

:22:03.:22:07.

is guaranteed, always. That departments work together with a key

:22:08.:22:11.

worker to bring them together and that families need to be involved,

:22:12.:22:16.

police have to be involved. Time between termination of a mental

:22:17.:22:22.

illness and transfer to a mental health hospital should be as certain

:22:23.:22:26.

as possible. The student body Speaker, I could speak for longer on

:22:27.:22:29.

this but at the heart of this, we must remember people like Dean

:22:30.:22:34.

Saunders who was not a hardened criminal. His family didn't know

:22:35.:22:38.

what to expect from prison but they knew that he had mental health

:22:39.:22:42.

issues. When he admitted, he was denied treatment. In the words of

:22:43.:22:47.

his mother, he was in there for 2.5 weeks with no medication, no

:22:48.:22:53.

support, no family support. They took all his rights away from him,

:22:54.:22:58.

everything. Previously, he had tried to take his own life at home. His

:22:59.:23:03.

mother said, we fought and saved him that night at home but part of both

:23:04.:23:09.

wishes we haven't because all we did was to get locked away for 2.5 weeks

:23:10.:23:14.

on his own with no support and no family contact. He just suffered for

:23:15.:23:20.

2.5 weeks until they let him do it again. At least if he had done it at

:23:21.:23:26.

home, we would have been with him. So, Mr Deputy Speaker, I welcome

:23:27.:23:29.

these reforms. You need these reforms. Instead of talking about

:23:30.:23:33.

what we should do, we must do something. I am learning to love my

:23:34.:23:42.

place in the pecking order in this building. First of all, I get to

:23:43.:23:48.

hear splendid debates like the one we've had this evening in their

:23:49.:23:52.

entirety and in particular the thoughtful and moving speech of my

:23:53.:23:56.

friend, a member for Derby North. Also because by my maths, I have one

:23:57.:24:02.

hour so I hope you're sitting, to be! Mr Lumpy Speaker, four years as

:24:03.:24:11.

did the mayor for policing taught me everything I needed to know about

:24:12.:24:17.

the dreary cycle of despair which our Criminal Justice System had

:24:18.:24:21.

become. The endless merry-go-round of the same people going through the

:24:22.:24:25.

hands of the same organisation 's year in, year out.

:24:26.:24:36.

I am extremely pleased to welcome the bill today. My four years at

:24:37.:24:43.

City Hall left me broadly with two frustrations that I wanted to share

:24:44.:24:46.

with you this evening because I think they have some bearing on the

:24:47.:24:52.

bill. The first is that while there are attempts, there have been

:24:53.:24:57.

attempts at rehabilitation before in the criminal justice system, hopely

:24:58.:25:03.

not as -- hopefully not as ambition as the honourable lady, too often

:25:04.:25:08.

the money was spread too thin. The jam in a fen niet world will be

:25:09.:25:14.

spread across the estates to the effect that the marginal difference

:25:15.:25:18.

that that programme might make would be hardly noticeable. When you look

:25:19.:25:23.

at the research into rehabilitation programmes tried over the past 30

:25:24.:25:27.

years not many have made a difference above 2 or 3%. Much has

:25:28.:25:31.

been explained away by the characteristics of the people they

:25:32.:25:35.

have been dealing. So, while this bill is extremely welcome, I approve

:25:36.:25:42.

whole heartedly towards the bias of rehabilitation in part one of the

:25:43.:25:45.

bill. While I know much of the radicalism of the bill is in the

:25:46.:25:50.

White Paper, I would urge her to think about where she puts her

:25:51.:25:54.

resources. For my money, the earlier you spend it, the better. By

:25:55.:25:59.

spending money on offenders between 18-25, you'll get much more bank for

:26:00.:26:05.

your buck than spending it sadly on somebody over 25. The truth about

:26:06.:26:08.

crime is that generally people either grow out of it or they become

:26:09.:26:15.

embroiled in it. That is why the bulk tend to be under 25. That is

:26:16.:26:21.

where we should spend the money. If we had endless money you would

:26:22.:26:25.

obviously spread it. But we don't. That was my first frustration. My

:26:26.:26:32.

second was the small sentences often handed out for very, very serious

:26:33.:26:38.

crimes. We would have individuals convicted of nonfatal stabbings

:26:39.:26:42.

given four years. Out after 24 months. It is a disgrace and not a

:26:43.:26:48.

significant deterrent, as we learnt in London, to the commissioner of

:26:49.:26:53.

those kind of crimes. They were let out that early because of the

:26:54.:26:55.

pressure on the system because of the numbers in the system. Again and

:26:56.:26:59.

again I would get the message back that the police and the CPS were

:27:00.:27:03.

nervous about putting cases in front of the courts because of the

:27:04.:27:07.

pressure upon prisons and often that the youth estate was struggling to

:27:08.:27:11.

take the people they should be taking, particularly given that they

:27:12.:27:14.

often had to separate individuals because of gang affiliation. Now

:27:15.:27:18.

that means we need to clear out some space. In short, my view is, we're

:27:19.:27:23.

locking up far too many of the wrong people and not locking up the right

:27:24.:27:27.

people for long enough. There are lots and lots of clever, smart

:27:28.:27:33.

technology-based disposal these days available for low-level offending.

:27:34.:27:37.

Tagging and testing, which we should push hard and put into effect in

:27:38.:27:41.

this country in a much more enthusiastic way so we can clear

:27:42.:27:46.

space in our prisons for longer sentences for those convicted,

:27:47.:27:49.

particularly of serious, I have lent crime. -- violent crime. On the

:27:50.:27:57.

second part of the bill, the courts second, I welcome the reforms and

:27:58.:28:02.

the use of technology because we know there are two deterrents to

:28:03.:28:07.

committing crime T first is probability of getting caught. That

:28:08.:28:11.

is down to the skill of the police. The second is the certainty of

:28:12.:28:14.

sentences and the swiftness. Criminals who are caught and then

:28:15.:28:20.

put before the courts swiftly, certain in the knowledge they will

:28:21.:28:24.

be convicted and they know what their sentence is going to be are

:28:25.:28:30.

more likely to be deterred. Anything that brings about swift justice is

:28:31.:28:34.

to be welcome. Overall the bill is heading in the right direction.

:28:35.:28:39.

There are three areas I would like to Secretary of State to consider,

:28:40.:28:43.

welcoming amendments from me. The first is about the Probation

:28:44.:28:46.

Service. I have long held the view that we will make very little

:28:47.:28:52.

progress on rehabilitation of offenders outside of prison until

:28:53.:28:56.

the police get involved. For my money probation should be an arnl of

:28:57.:29:01.

policing. Offender management, taking place in the community should

:29:02.:29:04.

be done by the police. Not only would that be more effective, they

:29:05.:29:12.

have personnel 24 hours a day in those communities, monitoring those

:29:13.:29:16.

offenders but also it would yield enormous savings. At the moment,

:29:17.:29:23.

there are double estates, double chief executives, double HC and more

:29:24.:29:29.

often than not they are sitting in the same meeting talking about the

:29:30.:29:32.

same individual. Giving the probation to the police, letting

:29:33.:29:35.

them manage offenders in the way they are supposed to would be a huge

:29:36.:29:40.

step forward. If you consider the health service, if we separated GPs

:29:41.:29:46.

into a different department from hospitals, everybody would think we

:29:47.:29:49.

were mad. Yet we put the police and the criminals who they are managing

:29:50.:29:55.

in the secure state, when they come out of the secure estate, in

:29:56.:29:57.

different departments. Bringing probation back I think would be an

:29:58.:30:02.

enormous improvement and signal a step change in offender management

:30:03.:30:06.

on the streets that would make a huge difference. It would also save

:30:07.:30:11.

money. The two other amendments I guess are of less significance, but

:30:12.:30:18.

might help the Lord Chancellor with her budget. The first is to do with

:30:19.:30:24.

Coroner's Courts. I don't know how she voted in the bill when we had it

:30:25.:30:30.

here, but I am a proponent of assisted dying. Supported it for a

:30:31.:30:33.

long time. I think it is the next great liberal cause for this

:30:34.:30:38.

country. But there is a wrinkle in the law which causes unnecessary

:30:39.:30:42.

distress to those who travel overseas for the purposes of seeking

:30:43.:30:46.

assistance to take their own life. At the moment, if you return from

:30:47.:30:53.

Switzerland having taken your family with your remains, then there is no

:30:54.:30:57.

inquest and you can scatter the ashes and go about your business in

:30:58.:31:04.

privacy. If however you wish to repatriate the body, at the moment,

:31:05.:31:08.

because the death is deemed to be uncertain, the Coroner has an

:31:09.:31:12.

obligation to open an inquest that may then be an autopsy, a criminal

:31:13.:31:17.

investigation will follow. But a prosecution won't. Because the CPS

:31:18.:31:22.

have already given guidance that they will not pursue prosecutions of

:31:23.:31:27.

people who have travelled overseas for the purposes of asis cysted --

:31:28.:31:33.

assisted suicide. An amend the the bill which would allow Coroners the

:31:34.:31:37.

same discretion they have in this country for those deaths where they

:31:38.:31:41.

are satisfied that is the purpose that the person travelled overseas

:31:42.:31:45.

and allowing people to bring bodies back for burial in the UK would both

:31:46.:31:50.

save time and money for Coroner's Courts because there are several

:31:51.:31:54.

hundred of these people now. And it would also avoid enormous distress

:31:55.:31:59.

for families who quite naturally want to fulfil the wishes. But fear

:32:00.:32:06.

prosecution and fear the inquest, so therefore undergo cremation

:32:07.:32:11.

overseas. It is a small adjustment to an inconsistentsy in the law

:32:12.:32:15.

between prosecution by the CPS and what the Coroner is obliged to do

:32:16.:32:20.

which would relief a huge amount of distress. The third amendment, which

:32:21.:32:24.

I hope the Lord Chancellor will consider, is to do with charging for

:32:25.:32:31.

testing of alcohol and drugs. She maybe aware that some years ago I,

:32:32.:32:38.

from outside this place, managed to get alcohol abstinence orders on to

:32:39.:32:41.

the statute book. It was a huge battle in this House and the House

:32:42.:32:45.

of Lords, but in the end we beat the then Lord Chancellor, the member for

:32:46.:32:51.

Rushcliffe; who objected to offenders where alcohol had been

:32:52.:32:55.

part of their offence being compelled to be sober for three or

:32:56.:33:00.

six months. Anyway, we got this on the statute book. But one of the

:33:01.:33:05.

items the Government would not allow in this scheme is that offenders in

:33:06.:33:09.

a scheme that works overseas are charged for their testing, when they

:33:10.:33:13.

urn up to be tested they pay in the US it is a $1 a test. It changes the

:33:14.:33:18.

psychology of testing. It means that the offenders who are undergoing

:33:19.:33:22.

testing of their sweat, their urine, their breath - whatever it might be,

:33:23.:33:27.

take more responsibility for their own sob bri etty, for their

:33:28.:33:32.

investing in their own freedom because this avoids a prison

:33:33.:33:36.

sentence. It means they maintain contact with their families. They

:33:37.:33:40.

keep their job. But they are sober for three or six months. If they

:33:41.:33:45.

have to invest a small amount in it, it means they take responsibility,

:33:46.:33:50.

but B, it means the scheme itself is self-funding. Therefore Police and

:33:51.:33:55.

Crime Commissioners who I have to say have not taken up this proposal,

:33:56.:33:59.

despite fantastic results in Croydon, where it was tried, will

:34:00.:34:03.

have just the business case to do it. It will be a source of funding

:34:04.:34:09.

for them. Would he also agree with me that one of the things that

:34:10.:34:13.

contributes to the success of these schemes overseases is the immediacy

:34:14.:34:16.

of the consequences. In other words if they fail the test then they are

:34:17.:34:23.

immediately taken back into custody. She's right. We at City Hall found

:34:24.:34:30.

this disposal in South Dakota, where it had taken off like wildfire. The

:34:31.:34:35.

judges loved it. Rates incredibly low. Compliance rating up in the

:34:36.:34:43.

high 90s. It was all based on this notion, that, yes, justice was swift

:34:44.:34:47.

and certain. If they contravened the rules of the scheme. But also that

:34:48.:34:53.

offenders were taking responsibility for their own punishment, if you

:34:54.:34:56.

like. They felt invested in it. They, every time they reached for a

:34:57.:35:00.

drink, they had to decide whether they wanted to stay out of prison or

:35:01.:35:05.

not. And as a result, it's been enormously successful there and is

:35:06.:35:07.

spreading across the whole of the United States. We have the power

:35:08.:35:12.

here. It just needs this small adjustment of allowing the police or

:35:13.:35:17.

the courts, whoever, to charge offenders a nom malamount for their

:35:18.:35:20.

testing. That would be the money they were spending on booze or

:35:21.:35:25.

drugs, if it is drugs testing. Allow them to invest in their own

:35:26.:35:29.

rehabilitation and make progress. I welcome this bill. It is a

:35:30.:35:32.

refreshing step in the right direction. Of breaking this dreadful

:35:33.:35:39.

merry-go-round, with which I lived for far too long. Thank you, Mr

:35:40.:35:49.

Deputy Speaker. I would like to refer the House, solicitor

:35:50.:35:52.

qualifying in England and Wales and Scotland. I would like to pay

:35:53.:35:57.

tribute to the people on the front line of what some describe as a

:35:58.:36:04.

prison crisis. But the front line prison officers have had to deal

:36:05.:36:11.

with the brunt of much of the under-resourcing, the psychoactive

:36:12.:36:14.

substances, the violence in prisons. We should make it clear we owe them

:36:15.:36:23.

a sincere debt of... They will feel more crucial in the jobs which will

:36:24.:36:29.

be crucial to allow us to develop a more rehab billive society. It has

:36:30.:36:33.

been an excellent debate today. I would like to touch on a few

:36:34.:36:37.

contributions before I touch on one or two sections of the bill which

:36:38.:36:40.

are of interest to us and these benches. It was kicked off by the

:36:41.:36:45.

chair of the justice Select Committee. A gentleman who I have

:36:46.:36:48.

grown very fond of in my shortly less than two years in this House.

:36:49.:36:53.

But when you have a Tory chair of the Justice Committee telling a Tory

:36:54.:36:56.

front bench that the situation is grim, I think we should all listen.

:36:57.:37:00.

But he struck a very constructive tone. As he always does. He

:37:01.:37:04.

described some of the more progressive measures in the White

:37:05.:37:08.

Paper, in the bill, as radical Tory proposals. Actually thought they

:37:09.:37:12.

were moving in the other direction towards progression. But

:37:13.:37:15.

nevertheless, I take his point completely. I think he, very, very

:37:16.:37:21.

hot on what was a real political problem in prison reform. That is

:37:22.:37:24.

the climate of public opinion. This notion it is unpopular to say, or to

:37:25.:37:30.

be inferred we are somehow being soft on crime if we are motivated to

:37:31.:37:36.

making sure prisons receive funding, rehabilitation to life when they

:37:37.:37:40.

come out and if the Lord Chancellor is willing to take up that batting,

:37:41.:37:45.

then she gets great praise from me. It is not an easy political decision

:37:46.:37:50.

to make. I wish her all the best in fighting that political climate. If

:37:51.:37:53.

she can change it, then I'll be a fan. My friend outlined, as usual,

:37:54.:38:03.

with great clarity the statistics that corroborate the chairman of the

:38:04.:38:06.

justice Select Committee that the position is grim. I think he struck

:38:07.:38:10.

an excellent tone. Very constructive, which does not belie

:38:11.:38:13.

his two years as a prison minister. He made the point as the Labour

:38:14.:38:17.

front bench did, just because there are elements of this bill we think

:38:18.:38:21.

can be improved, doesn't necessarily mean we don't agree with the general

:38:22.:38:24.

thrust of the bill. That is something can say on behalf of my

:38:25.:38:29.

party that we welcome for the most part the measures in this bill. The

:38:30.:38:35.

member for the Stretford tackled one of the most difficult issues head

:38:36.:38:40.

on, I thought. And she, unlike many, was willing to address the subject

:38:41.:38:46.

of prison numbers in our prisons. And whilst we can beef up

:38:47.:38:50.

recruitment and we can beef up the prison officers, I agree with her,

:38:51.:38:56.

that perhaps we should look at ways for not filling our prisons with

:38:57.:39:01.

people who are there needlessly. She spoke with passion when she spoke

:39:02.:39:05.

about the situation for women and mental illness as well. I agree

:39:06.:39:08.

there are so many people in prisons that ought not to be there and it's

:39:09.:39:14.

not the right place for them to be rehabilitated. She was very brave

:39:15.:39:18.

and be commended for striking that tone. The honourable member made an

:39:19.:39:28.

excellent moral case very well for prisons being rehabilitating

:39:29.:39:30.

organisations. He said, the principals contained in the face of

:39:31.:39:37.

the bill, perhaps lardable. The difference between principals and

:39:38.:39:40.

actions driving those principals through how the prison estate

:39:41.:39:43.

operates. That is a challenge that we will all have to face. I think

:39:44.:39:44.

he's right to say it. The Honorourable Member for

:39:45.:39:58.

Bridgend. If any member did not hear the Honorourable Member for Bridgend

:39:59.:40:02.

speech, I suggest they look it up with haste. It was incredible and

:40:03.:40:10.

you talked about Parc prison in Bridgend, 69% of prisoners having

:40:11.:40:14.

regular family contact, 10% reoffending rate and many others

:40:15.:40:19.

should the sticks, and my proposal to the Lord Chancellor is, we should

:40:20.:40:23.

scrap this bill and devolve management across these islands to

:40:24.:40:27.

the offices of My Honourable Friend the Bridgend. If we can do what Parc

:40:28.:40:34.

prison is doing across the UK, we will have made enormous progress in

:40:35.:40:39.

making a prisons fit for purpose. My Honourable Friend, the member of the

:40:40.:40:45.

Shipley, perhaps he should visit Parc prison, I think that would be

:40:46.:40:49.

an incredibly enlightening experience and if I could be a fly

:40:50.:40:53.

on the wall in that visit, I would pay serious, serious money to see

:40:54.:40:56.

that. He made a typically robust but unusually brief contribution and I

:40:57.:41:02.

think, to be fair, there were parts of his speech that were more

:41:03.:41:04.

balanced on his reputation would dictate. When he talks about assault

:41:05.:41:11.

on prison officers and being prevented from early release, it's

:41:12.:41:15.

very, very difficult to disagree with that. There's not much of My

:41:16.:41:19.

Honourable Friend from Shipley that at least do agree with but that one,

:41:20.:41:22.

it's very difficult to disagree with that. Here are prison officers who

:41:23.:41:27.

face the brunt of what I described the consequences of his dirty and

:41:28.:41:32.

they deserve more protection and that is a way we could protect them,

:41:33.:41:36.

that proposal would certainly have my ear. Finally, My Honourable

:41:37.:41:41.

Friend, my colleague from the Justice committee, the member of

:41:42.:41:47.

Banbury, like her, they pay to be to the present Courts Minister for a

:41:48.:41:51.

very interesting and comprehensive one hour pilot we had the digital

:41:52.:41:55.

scheme last week and like her, I was able to apply the divorce and issue

:41:56.:41:59.

an astronomical claim on my wife all at the flick of a button. I am sure

:42:00.:42:06.

everybody will be blighted to learn that it was fictitious. One thing

:42:07.:42:10.

that occurred to me and perhaps the Minister would give me some

:42:11.:42:14.

attention so I could describe it to him? Issues to be an opportunity

:42:15.:42:20.

within digital constructions of case management files online and the

:42:21.:42:25.

legal profession want thank you for saying this but relates the costs.

:42:26.:42:29.

One of the huge criticisms of the legal profession is that costs can

:42:30.:42:33.

be inflated but if we have a digital system where we can see step-by-step

:42:34.:42:37.

is happening at every case, it may well Act as a skeleton on which

:42:38.:42:41.

standard assessment for costs could be based. The legal profession will

:42:42.:42:44.

not be delighted that I see that but it strikes me as being sensible, but

:42:45.:42:48.

we could have that framework in place, and if that is a consequence

:42:49.:42:52.

of the digitisation of the court system, again I will be very

:42:53.:42:57.

pleased. But Adobe Speaker, I wish to make some comments on part one of

:42:58.:43:02.

the bill which is in relation to prisons. It is establishing a

:43:03.:43:09.

statutory purchase the prisons with principles that should guide our

:43:10.:43:14.

illustration of the prison estate. It belies what I think is the real

:43:15.:43:19.

issue in prisons which is not contained in the bill for

:43:20.:43:21.

understandable reasons and that is the lack of resource and the lack of

:43:22.:43:27.

staff. Government, quite rightly, is embarking on a recruitment campaign

:43:28.:43:32.

to recruit 2,500 net officers into the prison estate. I've heard

:43:33.:43:35.

various figures of what the gross figure would have to be to get to

:43:36.:43:44.

that net figure, somewhere between 1,000 or closer to 8,000. I would

:43:45.:43:50.

like to know how were getting on with that recruitment drive. I was

:43:51.:43:54.

intrigued yet worry to hear a statement from the Lord Chancellor

:43:55.:43:56.

in her opening speech which I'm sure was erroneous when she mentioned the

:43:57.:44:00.

progress being made in the ten prisons that we've identified for

:44:01.:44:05.

additional static resource. Contrary to that position, we've received a

:44:06.:44:08.

letter from the prisons minister and it outlined as the 31st of December

:44:09.:44:15.

last year, six months into the recruitment drive, four those

:44:16.:44:18.

prisons had your staff numbers in the six months before. It may well

:44:19.:44:27.

be that things had been superseded in the next ten weeks. If that is

:44:28.:44:31.

the case, I will be grateful for some clarity on that. I want these

:44:32.:44:35.

results resources to be beat up so we can do the job properly. One of

:44:36.:44:41.

those prisons that was ecstatic at the end of last year was Wandsworth.

:44:42.:44:44.

I was lucky enough to visit Wandsworth with the Justice

:44:45.:44:48.

committee before its recruitment drive started and you did not need

:44:49.:44:53.

to spend long in Wandsworth before you became acutely aware of what the

:44:54.:44:58.

problems were. We had meetings with representatives of the inmates,

:44:59.:45:02.

meetings with percentages of the officers and when you got 15 prison,

:45:03.:45:08.

convicted criminals telling you that we need more prison officers, I

:45:09.:45:13.

think that is worth listening to you. Clearly, many think it wouldn't

:45:14.:45:17.

be in their interest to have more prison officer is but these people

:45:18.:45:21.

would be locked in a cell for 23 and 24 hours, they were not getting

:45:22.:45:25.

visits and that frustration was building up the cause many of the

:45:26.:45:28.

problems that we've seen over the last few months. I asked the

:45:29.:45:40.

question about existing staff because clearly it's sensible to

:45:41.:45:47.

recruit more staff. But what happens to the existing staff? Has been a

:45:48.:45:52.

pay rise for part of the estate. I would ask the Lord Chancellor and

:45:53.:45:55.

ministers to consider what that doors to the morale of the rest of

:45:56.:45:58.

the estate. This discontentment is not confined to certain prisons,

:45:59.:46:03.

this is across the board entirely and we must be very careful when we

:46:04.:46:07.

give incentives to one part of the prison officer population but not

:46:08.:46:12.

the other parts. Is there a danger it could exacerbate the problem? I

:46:13.:46:16.

say all of them deserve a pay rise and I see all of them deserve their

:46:17.:46:25.

rules to be professionalised. It would be great if we could have that

:46:26.:46:28.

update on progress and one of the points about prison numbers which I

:46:29.:46:31.

haven't heard mention today but I think it's worth mentioning is that

:46:32.:46:37.

prisons have 500 left governors and what they had seven years ago, not

:46:38.:46:45.

only 7,000 is staff and part of this bill quite rightly in my view place

:46:46.:46:50.

or responsibility on governors. We've heard lots about recruitment

:46:51.:46:53.

drives officers and staff but nothing about the recruitment drive

:46:54.:46:57.

governors. Is there a recruitment drive to secure more governors,

:46:58.:47:00.

given the extra responsibility that this bill will rightly, in my view,

:47:01.:47:07.

pistol upon them? Mr Deputy Speaker, this bill extends to Scotland in the

:47:08.:47:11.

sense that it will create a framework for the reserve tribunal

:47:12.:47:14.

's remaining in Scotland and the most part, that means the

:47:15.:47:18.

immigration detention centres and tribunals we have there. In that

:47:19.:47:22.

context, we welcome these proposals but Scotland is a smaller

:47:23.:47:25.

jurisdiction, we don't have the same claims management culture that seems

:47:26.:47:29.

to prevail in England and Wales at least haven't had the same problem

:47:30.:47:34.

with our prisons but it's not in our interest but that to continue to be

:47:35.:47:38.

exacerbated and we wish the minister and his team all the very best in

:47:39.:47:43.

helping that. In Scotland, Her Majesty 's Chief Inspector of

:47:44.:47:45.

prisons is responsible for the monitoring of Scotland's 15 prisons

:47:46.:47:50.

and in 2016, the inspection found that Scotland fulfils its response

:47:51.:47:54.

abilities to a high degree. The Scottish prison service has a bold

:47:55.:47:59.

vision to unlock the potential of everyone in prison and seek to

:48:00.:48:04.

transform their lives. The stated intention is to provide services

:48:05.:48:07.

that will transform the lives of the people in our care so they can

:48:08.:48:09.

fulfil their potential to become responsible citizens are something I

:48:10.:48:15.

think most people will agree with. I've also had the privilege of

:48:16.:48:19.

visiting a prison in my own constituency, Dumfries prison. I

:48:20.:48:23.

could not emphasise enough the difference between what I saw at

:48:24.:48:29.

Dumfries and Wandsworth. Dumfries doesn't have the category of

:48:30.:48:33.

dangerous prisoners, it doesn't have the population but Wandsworth House

:48:34.:48:36.

but it is officially resourced and all of the staff there are

:48:37.:48:39.

completely motivated to transforming the lives of the prisoners that were

:48:40.:48:43.

there. At Wandsworth I can fully describe the officers as ashen

:48:44.:48:50.

faced. It is as if they lost hope. The Justice select committee was

:48:51.:48:53.

before them but they didn't see that as an avenue to change things, it

:48:54.:48:55.

was a hopeless situation they felt they found themselves in but I know

:48:56.:49:01.

the front bench acknowledge that. In Scotland, we do not agree with the

:49:02.:49:06.

principle of private prisons. We think private prisons are for-profit

:49:07.:49:12.

and not the Republic safety. In the Justice committee, we have had

:49:13.:49:15.

evidence from but the governors of private prisons and the governors of

:49:16.:49:18.

public prisons and I've been struck by the differences in the evidence

:49:19.:49:23.

that they've given in relation to private prisoners, he's governors

:49:24.:49:28.

are bound by contract and they are not motivated in the slightest to

:49:29.:49:31.

come in front of the committee and explain that they are having

:49:32.:49:35.

problems. Not sure if he's aware that the prison he has just praised

:49:36.:49:41.

the rooftops is privately run. No, I'm not aware of that but it seems

:49:42.:49:48.

as if it is my bible team running the prison. I doubt whether these

:49:49.:49:54.

policies would have come from G4S and are much likely to have come

:49:55.:49:57.

from My Honourable Friend's constituency. If that is the case, I

:49:58.:50:02.

don't seek to be contentious, I stand to be corrected. That's why I

:50:03.:50:05.

have suggested to the Justice committee that we look at this issue

:50:06.:50:09.

to examine the effects of this, of private prisons vis-a-vis the public

:50:10.:50:13.

sector. If the Honorourable Member is correct, that inquiry will bring

:50:14.:50:19.

out those details and I will forward to the point where we can have that

:50:20.:50:22.

reasonable and constructive political free discussion. Having

:50:23.:50:29.

heard from the former justice minister that it is a private

:50:30.:50:33.

prison, I think from the Honourable Lady from Bridgend who may well

:50:34.:50:35.

confirm it, will he reconsider his party 's position? Is not for me to

:50:36.:50:42.

consider my parties position, I am just a foot soldier of my parties

:50:43.:50:47.

movement. However, what I will say is that we will be led by the

:50:48.:50:51.

evidence and the evidence from any future inquiry of public prisons

:50:52.:50:57.

versus private prison gives me a different impression, then of course

:50:58.:50:59.

I will be led by the evidence, not the politics, as the honourable

:51:00.:51:05.

gentleman has clearly be led by his. I do consider the Honourable Friend

:51:06.:51:11.

-- the honourable gentleman, my friend. I would suggest the Justice

:51:12.:51:14.

committee visit parks prison because I have to say leadership there from

:51:15.:51:20.

the director is essential. Things only work if you have leadership, if

:51:21.:51:28.

you have policy staff and if you have a whole organisational approach

:51:29.:51:32.

and commitment to change and I'm sure you would be delighted at what

:51:33.:51:36.

you found there and I have to admit, my staff and my office and myself

:51:37.:51:42.

can take no responsibility for the wonderful work that they do. We can

:51:43.:51:49.

only supported. I reciprocate her views for various reasons. I would

:51:50.:51:54.

be delighted if the Chair of the Justice select committee would agree

:51:55.:51:58.

to visit Park prison and I would be even more delighted if the

:51:59.:52:01.

Honorourable Member for Shipley and join us so I could take photographs

:52:02.:52:06.

of his ever-changing complexity seeing the benefits. I am very

:52:07.:52:10.

grateful, the honourable gentleman might be surprised that I have

:52:11.:52:14.

visited lots of prisons and one of my favourite visit was to Grendon

:52:15.:52:21.

prison which is a therapeutic prison and was one of the prisons I was

:52:22.:52:23.

most impressed with my visit there. One thing I learned was all the

:52:24.:52:27.

things that we will find terrible about being a prison. Most things

:52:28.:52:34.

that we would find easy in prison, most prisoners find difficult and it

:52:35.:52:39.

taught me that we should look prisons through the eyes of the

:52:40.:52:44.

prisoners, not through our own perspective of what might work or

:52:45.:52:48.

might not work in a prison. He has cultivated a very unfair reputation.

:52:49.:52:58.

Nevertheless, as I said, he did make some pragmatic points and if this

:52:59.:53:02.

element of enlightenment about is the process, as we do in these

:53:03.:53:07.

benches, we would welcome that arduous process. Mr Deputy Speaker,

:53:08.:53:12.

one final point or two because I'm conscious that you want to hear what

:53:13.:53:18.

the have to say. The Honourable Friend touched upon it in terms of

:53:19.:53:22.

prisoner numbers. Scotland is not immune to having an inordinately

:53:23.:53:24.

high prison publishing. We don't hide from that fact, we do, but we

:53:25.:53:28.

are committed to challenging the basis upon that arises and we are

:53:29.:53:32.

committed to examining the effect of this short sentences. Had a

:53:33.:53:37.

presumption against short sentences, we are consulting further on that

:53:38.:53:40.

and will be led by the evidence. I was delighted to hear the Chair of

:53:41.:53:43.

the Justice select committee at the close of the remarks likely touch on

:53:44.:53:48.

short sentences and perhaps him and I can work together in having the

:53:49.:53:51.

community look at the issue because I believe the cycle of having the

:53:52.:53:55.

violence and reoffending is not assisted in any way, shape or form

:53:56.:53:59.

by particularly young people going in and out of prison for one, two,

:54:00.:54:05.

three months of a time. Effective community payback orders, but they

:54:06.:54:10.

are in touch with the committee, face the consequences and did with

:54:11.:54:13.

the other aspects of the behaviour, which be a much more efficient

:54:14.:54:18.

process to go down. I am conscious of time, Mr Speaker, I would touch

:54:19.:54:23.

on the other two or three parts of the bill but I was about to touch on

:54:24.:54:26.

because I am keen to hear the front bench's sum up but I wish the

:54:27.:54:30.

ministers and the Lord Chancellor well. It did her ambition to be

:54:31.:54:35.

known as a great prison reformer, this is a decent start and if she is

:54:36.:54:39.

determined to tackle the public perception mess, then I wish the

:54:40.:54:40.

very best in that endeavour. I refer to my relevant entry in the

:54:41.:54:53.

register that I am a non-practicing barrister. I thank members on all

:54:54.:54:58.

sides for the quality of the debate we've had on this bill at second

:54:59.:55:02.

reading. There is much in the bill that the opposition can support. Not

:55:03.:55:09.

least, the very welcome prohibition of cross-examination of victims by

:55:10.:55:16.

alleged in the family courts. Something which was raised a couple

:55:17.:55:19.

of months ago by the member for Hove. We welcome innovation. We will

:55:20.:55:25.

be seeking to amend this bill in committee to embed the principals of

:55:26.:55:32.

justice and fairness and to ensure that innovations can with safeguards

:55:33.:55:35.

and appropriate statutory reviews. Indeed, our approach on this bill of

:55:36.:55:40.

holding the Government to account of not giving the Government a blank

:55:41.:55:44.

cheque was summed up by the contributions made on this side of

:55:45.:55:48.

the House. I commend the work that is done by my Right Honourable

:55:49.:55:55.

friend the member for camber well and Peckham on her chairs. She spoke

:55:56.:56:00.

about suicides in our prisons. My honourable friend, the member for

:56:01.:56:05.

Halifax, who I commend on her campaign for protections for

:56:06.:56:09.

emergency workers, including our prison officers and her speaking up

:56:10.:56:13.

for local justice in Halifax. Halifax could have no finer voice

:56:14.:56:17.

speaking for that than the honourable lady. I am grateful to my

:56:18.:56:22.

honourable friend the member for Stretford, who spoke very movingly

:56:23.:56:26.

about mental health in our prisons, something which has come up in a

:56:27.:56:29.

number of contributions and the number of women in custody in our

:56:30.:56:34.

prisons today in 2017. I am grateful too to the contribution of my Right

:56:35.:56:40.

Honourable friend who drew on his extensive experience and in

:56:41.:56:44.

particular highlighted the issue of having prisoners in our prisons far,

:56:45.:56:49.

too far away from home. I also commend and am grateful for the

:56:50.:56:53.

contribution of my honourable friend the member for Bridgeend. It was

:56:54.:57:00.

great great to her about Her Majesty Charter Mark it has received. I am

:57:01.:57:04.

grateful to the member for Southampton north-west, who made a

:57:05.:57:09.

number of useful and important interventions as the debate

:57:10.:57:12.

progressed. But, Mr Speaker, in terms of the success of this bill,

:57:13.:57:17.

it is difficult at times not to draw the conclusion that factors outside

:57:18.:57:20.

it are going to be at least as important, if not more important,

:57:21.:57:24.

than what is actually within the bill. We are all in favour of

:57:25.:57:31.

rehabilitation and reducing the re-offending rate. 2, 500 extra

:57:32.:57:36.

prison officers are welcome. But that does not compensate for the 6,

:57:37.:57:42.

500 that have been lost since 2010. At the same time, we are in favour

:57:43.:57:46.

of modernisation of our court's system. But the courts to legal aid

:57:47.:57:50.

have meant there are far more it will gants in person within our

:57:51.:57:56.

courts system. Similarly, Mr Speaker, there are measures on

:57:57.:57:59.

employment tribunals in this bill, but it does nothing to take away the

:58:00.:58:04.

ideological vandalism that is the employment tribunal fees that were

:58:05.:58:08.

introduced in 2013. We welcome online courts. But those online

:58:09.:58:13.

courts should not be at the expense of local justice. They should be a

:58:14.:58:19.

compliment to it. And in relation to the measures on small claims, I

:58:20.:58:23.

never thought I would find myself at this dispatch box agreeing the

:58:24.:58:26.

honourable gentleman for Barry North, but I think he was entirely

:58:27.:58:30.

right when he said that if you want to tackle fraudulent claims the way

:58:31.:58:35.

to do it is not to penalise everybody who brings legitimate

:58:36.:58:40.

claims. Now, the way, Mr Speaker, that we will judge this bill is on

:58:41.:58:45.

whether it can actually deliver. Prisons are at the centrepiece of

:58:46.:58:49.

the bill. And we know of the problems of violence, of

:58:50.:58:52.

overcrowding, of drugs and a shortage of prison officers. And the

:58:53.:58:59.

Government has to tackle this. Mr Speaker, as it tackles it, the Lord

:59:00.:59:03.

Chancellor said in her opening remarks about turning the situation

:59:04.:59:07.

around. When I heard that, I have to remind members opposite they have

:59:08.:59:12.

been in power for seven years. I have a confession to make at this

:59:13.:59:16.

point, Mr Speaker, that I have actually been reading recently the

:59:17.:59:20.

memoirs of the Right Honourable member for Rushcliffe. I was very

:59:21.:59:25.

interested as to what he said about his time as Justice Secretary. And

:59:26.:59:30.

he says this about when the party opposite came into power, in

:59:31.:59:35.

coalition, in 2010. He said he consulted the Conservative Party

:59:36.:59:38.

website as to what their justice policy actually was. But he was

:59:39.:59:41.

somewhat disappointed because he said it was based on and I quote

:59:42.:59:48.

"trying to respond to the various campaigns in the tabloid press.

:59:49.:59:53.

Thereafter I did not consult my party's website again." Probably

:59:54.:59:56.

good advice for the ministers opposite. He also said this about

:59:57.:00:03.

his successor, as Justice Secretary. "When Chris gral gral took over from

:00:04.:00:09.

me as -- Grayling took over from me he was not interested in reforming

:00:10.:00:14.

the prison system in a liberal sis rve fashion nor reducing the prison

:00:15.:00:23.

population." Inevitably... : He had to return to seek more savings from

:00:24.:00:29.

the legal aid system. He revived the disastrous proposals for criminal

:00:30.:00:33.

legal aid, which dragged him into prolonged and unsuccessful

:00:34.:00:36.

controversy during much of his term of office. That the criminal legal

:00:37.:00:42.

aid changes were disastrous is something I entirely agree with The

:00:43.:00:45.

Right Honourable member for Rushcliffe about. It is those cuts

:00:46.:00:51.

that have produced a false economy because of the proliferation of it

:00:52.:00:59.

will gants in person in our -- litigants in person in our courts.

:01:00.:01:05.

It puts the success of measures such as live and virtual courts at risk.

:01:06.:01:10.

Because one of the risks of course in that situation is that the person

:01:11.:01:17.

appearing in court isn't able to follow or understand the hearing.

:01:18.:01:21.

That might be a challenge in a virtual court with a lawyer present.

:01:22.:01:25.

It is an even greater challenge in a situation where there are litigants

:01:26.:01:31.

in person. The Government has to be clear and careful that actually

:01:32.:01:34.

virtual courts are managed properly going forward and don't end up

:01:35.:01:39.

costing more money than they save. Similarly, I would place on record

:01:40.:01:44.

some caution about the idea of on-line guilty pleas. While I can

:01:45.:01:49.

see an argument for it in terms of very simple offences, like motoring

:01:50.:01:53.

offences that are readily understood, nonetheless, there has

:01:54.:01:58.

to be situation where the defend knows and -- defendant knows and

:01:59.:02:03.

understanding their right to legal advice and also understands too

:02:04.:02:07.

their right to challenge the charge. Because one thing that an online

:02:08.:02:11.

plea takes away is that opportunity that sometimes comes later in

:02:12.:02:16.

prosecutions before our courts, when different charges are ultimately

:02:17.:02:19.

preferred by the Crown Prosecution Service. To be the thin end of the

:02:20.:02:27.

wedge to extend them to complex offences. We must not lose sight of

:02:28.:02:32.

the fact we are meant to have a criminal justice system that is open

:02:33.:02:37.

and visible to the public. But nowhere perhaps is the problem of

:02:38.:02:41.

what's outside this bill of what's not in this bill summed up than in

:02:42.:02:48.

the case of the employment tribunal fees. Which, with issue fee and

:02:49.:02:56.

hearing fee can reach ?1, 200. 00. A fee that if anyone has been

:02:57.:03:00.

subjected to discrimination or unfair dismissal, is going to be

:03:01.:03:06.

extremely hard to find. And there was a debate, which I heard earlier

:03:07.:03:10.

in the opening speeches, about the effect that this has had. But I

:03:11.:03:14.

quote the justice Select Committee in this regard. I commend the work

:03:15.:03:19.

of the chair of the justice Select Committee who makes such an

:03:20.:03:23.

important contribution to the debate on justice in this House. What

:03:24.:03:29.

happened after their introduction in July 2013 and I quote, "An

:03:30.:03:38.

undisputed and drop in the number of cases approaching 70%." The minister

:03:39.:03:43.

made a point earlier, intervening on my honourable friend, the member for

:03:44.:03:47.

Leeds East. Let me quote what the justice Select Committee says about

:03:48.:03:52.

that. "We heard a considerable amount of evidence that far from

:03:53.:03:57.

encouraging early conciliation and resolution of disputes, employment

:03:58.:04:00.

tribunal fees were having the opposite effect. Because there was

:04:01.:04:05.

no incentive for an employer to settle cases where the claimant

:04:06.:04:09.

might have difficulty raising the fee." And therein lies the crux of

:04:10.:04:16.

the problem. And I heard many contributions from the benches

:04:17.:04:20.

opposite. I have to say the one that will really reverberate on

:04:21.:04:23.

employment tribunal fees is the one made by the honourable member for

:04:24.:04:29.

Huntingdon. Who when my member for Leeds East talked act the need to

:04:30.:04:32.

abolish these fees, what was it that was said that they would encourage

:04:33.:04:39.

something for nothing. Well, let me say this openly, anyone who has

:04:40.:04:42.

suffered discrimination at work has been subjected to an unfair

:04:43.:04:46.

dismissal. They do not seek something for nothing. They seek

:04:47.:04:50.

access to justice and to assert their legal rights.

:04:51.:04:54.

The honourable gentleman must tell me which other type of application

:04:55.:05:02.

you don't pay a fee for? Why is it only employment tribunals that he

:05:03.:05:06.

doesn't want fees to be paid for? Because they are the very people who

:05:07.:05:10.

don't have the money to take the cases. I mean, the honourable

:05:11.:05:15.

gentleman's sort of so far from reality and with the greatest of

:05:16.:05:20.

respect to the honourable gentleman, who made some other useful

:05:21.:05:25.

contributions in his speech, if you're in a hole I suggest you stop

:05:26.:05:29.

digging. His contribution does not get better with any number of

:05:30.:05:33.

remarks he makes on it. That brings many eto the final part of this --

:05:34.:05:39.

brings many eto the final part of whiplash claims because I said I

:05:40.:05:42.

agree with the member for Bury North, the way to deal with fraud is

:05:43.:05:47.

not to increase the limit on this way. On whiplash, as everything

:05:48.:05:51.

else, we will judge this bill and look to amend it in committee and

:05:52.:05:55.

what it does on access to justice. That is the principal on which this

:05:56.:05:57.

bill has to be judged. We've had an excellent debate. I

:05:58.:06:11.

would like to start by congratulating this esteemed and

:06:12.:06:14.

experienced group of speakers. The chairman of the Select Committee, my

:06:15.:06:19.

honourable friend for Bromley and Chislehurst, former Justice

:06:20.:06:23.

Minister, my honourable friend for Huntingdon, my honourable friend for

:06:24.:06:27.

Northwest Cambs and other successful candidate. Well, he was actually, he

:06:28.:06:36.

had my job. My honourable friend, Right Honourable friend for

:06:37.:06:41.

Harborough, who did this as a Shadow Minister, North West Norfolk, who

:06:42.:06:44.

has been a minister in this department. South West Bedfordshire,

:06:45.:06:49.

former prison minister and I would like to congratulate my honourable

:06:50.:06:56.

friends for Banbury, Derby North, mid-Dorset and Poole, who have all

:06:57.:07:00.

given excellent contributions to this debate and I will comment on

:07:01.:07:04.

some other speeches which I thought were generally very thoughtful and

:07:05.:07:07.

it is obvious there is a great deal of support for this bill. As the

:07:08.:07:11.

Secretary of State outlined at the beginning of this debate, these are

:07:12.:07:16.

vital provisions. If we're to make the justice system fit for the 21st

:07:17.:07:22.

century. We are talking about a major reform of prisons and a very

:07:23.:07:28.

important set of changes to the law about the courts, which will

:07:29.:07:31.

underpin the transformation programme that's going on at the

:07:32.:07:34.

moment and which has the support of the senior judiciary. And I just

:07:35.:07:38.

want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to those who work in our

:07:39.:07:43.

prisons, courts and the wider justice system. Their commitment to

:07:44.:07:48.

public service and care of those most vulnerable in society is

:07:49.:07:52.

inspiring. And I know many of them will be following this bill and know

:07:53.:07:58.

that it means a lot for their work. Before addressing some specific

:07:59.:08:02.

matters, I just wanted to clarify that this bill does do some

:08:03.:08:05.

important things and also doesn't do some things which might have been

:08:06.:08:09.

suggested. So, I mean the provisions in this bill mean better access to

:08:10.:08:15.

justice. Simpler resolution of cases for people. And it is important to

:08:16.:08:20.

reiterate that the bill has been prepared with extensive user testing

:08:21.:08:24.

consultation, with those affected by the measures. Access to justice will

:08:25.:08:29.

not be compromised by this bill. Sacred principals of open justice

:08:30.:08:33.

and the rule of law will be protected in a modern system that

:08:34.:08:38.

reflects how people access public services in the 21st century. A good

:08:39.:08:44.

deal was said, I think supporting the idea of having the statutory

:08:45.:08:50.

purpose of prisons in this bill. For the first time, not just housing the

:08:51.:08:54.

prisoner, but actually having to keep the person safe, keep the

:08:55.:09:00.

public safe, reform, rehabilitation and preparing people for a life

:09:01.:09:06.

outside prisons. And this framework, this new framework, is there and

:09:07.:09:13.

everything follows from it. Contracts, the information that is

:09:14.:09:17.

spread in terms of best practise, training, and of course, as The

:09:18.:09:21.

Right Honourable lady said, in a very thoughtful speech, it is

:09:22.:09:30.

important to prepare the prisoner for release, other members, brej

:09:31.:09:35.

end, the honourable -- bridge end, the honourable lady referred to the

:09:36.:09:37.

importance of the family, of accommodation. These things are

:09:38.:09:42.

there in these, in this purpose. So, when we talk about reform and

:09:43.:09:47.

rehabilitation of offenders, we're talking about tackling their mental

:09:48.:09:49.

health We're talking about housing

:09:50.:09:58.

accommodation, good contacts with their family and so it's all in

:09:59.:10:01.

their order of course the Right Honourable lady was making the

:10:02.:10:05.

point, and haven't got much time I'm afraid, she was making the point and

:10:06.:10:09.

I think this is right, that we might want to look to see if there was a

:10:10.:10:14.

solution in secondary legislation as well as primary that might reinforce

:10:15.:10:16.

some of the important point is that she was making. The prison rules are

:10:17.:10:22.

a secondary legislation, they do contain a lot of detail already

:10:23.:10:27.

about the way in which prisoners should be treated and so it is

:10:28.:10:32.

certainly possible to look at those issues and I will certainly do that.

:10:33.:10:38.

The Prison Reform Trust were mentioned by the Honourable Lady for

:10:39.:10:42.

Stratford and Urmston and their suggestion that we should add a

:10:43.:10:45.

fairness and decency to the statutory purpose. It is right that

:10:46.:10:49.

these are important considerations in running prisons but I do think we

:10:50.:10:54.

need to remember that there is already an interlacing of a legal

:10:55.:10:59.

obligations which apply in prisons and so, as the Right Honourable lady

:11:00.:11:03.

was mentioning with the background with the joint committee on human

:11:04.:11:08.

rights, there are basic human rights, articles two, 38 which apply

:11:09.:11:13.

to the way in which prisoners are treated. Health and safety

:11:14.:11:18.

legislation, the duty of care which comes through the law of tort. So I

:11:19.:11:22.

think that it would be wrong to think that there isn't protection

:11:23.:11:26.

already but certainly, this is something that we can examine

:11:27.:11:32.

further in committee. And so, I would like to also picture but My

:11:33.:11:35.

Honourable Friend the Derby North who has done so much as a raconteur

:11:36.:11:41.

on this issue of deaths in prison for the JC H R. Now, what happens if

:11:42.:11:48.

the present doesn't need the purpose set out in no? A question asked by

:11:49.:11:51.

my Right Honourable Friend for harbour and others. Of course, the

:11:52.:11:57.

purpose of prisons is there and it is underpinned by the duty of the

:11:58.:12:01.

inspectorate to inspect against the purpose and aims and it is also

:12:02.:12:07.

protected by the Secretary of State having to respond. I wouldn't say

:12:08.:12:10.

that it is impossible that a case could be mounted for judicial review

:12:11.:12:17.

because to say that is to press the case too far but I think it would

:12:18.:12:24.

only be the case where an individual prison totally ignored or

:12:25.:12:27.

disregarded the purpose or something of that sort, but it would be

:12:28.:12:31.

grounded, or possibly it could be considered as a factor in another

:12:32.:12:34.

case where other aspects were being raised. I was asked by the

:12:35.:12:40.

honourable, the Right Honourable gentleman for Dylan about the update

:12:41.:12:48.

on each MIP's protocol with MoJ. I again pay to be to his experience in

:12:49.:12:52.

this area. Earlier this year, a draft protocol was shared with the

:12:53.:12:56.

JAC and other bodies. The final protocol will be available very

:12:57.:13:01.

shortly and I can promise it will be there before the committee stage.

:13:02.:13:15.

Very shortly. Imminently! I could say a lot about family engagement.

:13:16.:13:20.

The former review looks very much at that and it is very well understood

:13:21.:13:25.

that to maintain family relationships is a key element in

:13:26.:13:30.

trying to set a prisoner on the straight and narrow and is very

:13:31.:13:38.

important in terms of revalidation. The honourable gentleman for Leeds

:13:39.:13:43.

East asked about the time limits for responding to inspection reports.

:13:44.:13:48.

The point to be made is that action will be taken from day one of an

:13:49.:13:53.

urgent notification by the chief inspector, so there will be

:13:54.:13:57.

immediate energy brought to bear and of course 28 days is the appropriate

:13:58.:14:02.

period in a really urgent case of that sort. The Law Society concerns

:14:03.:14:10.

safeguard online conviction. Defenders must opt into the new

:14:11.:14:13.

procedure and it will be proper warnings available and immediate

:14:14.:14:18.

clear that the defendant once to challenge the case in any way, if

:14:19.:14:25.

the defendant once to argue that the time to pay is needed for a

:14:26.:14:29.

financial penalty, or it should be lower because of circumstances, then

:14:30.:14:33.

all these things will be made clear, and the bill also provides that in

:14:34.:14:37.

the event of a mistake for what ever reason, there will be the

:14:38.:14:40.

possibility of setting aside the conviction or the sentence in order

:14:41.:14:44.

to have the matter dealt with in the traditional way, but I'm sure we

:14:45.:14:49.

will discuss this more in committee. Certainly, the idea is to have those

:14:50.:14:55.

protections in place. The question of whiplash. My Honourable Friend

:14:56.:15:02.

for Huntington asked about fraud cases and how successful they are in

:15:03.:15:09.

terms of successful prosecution and so on. The insurance industry data

:15:10.:15:15.

shows in 2015 there were 70,000 cases of insurance fraud worth ?800

:15:16.:15:21.

million. In addition, the City of London Police insurance fraud

:15:22.:15:25.

enforcement department has secured over 200 prosecutions in the last

:15:26.:15:30.

four years, resulting in over 100 years worth of jail time for

:15:31.:15:34.

insurance fraudsters. The answer is, a lot of action is being taken on

:15:35.:15:39.

that. In terms of the overall case on whiplash, what is being said is

:15:40.:15:46.

that over a 10-year period, when we have seen the number of road traffic

:15:47.:15:50.

accidents falling, where we've seen car safety improving, we had more

:15:51.:15:57.

than 50% increase in the number of whiplash related cases. Now, these

:15:58.:16:03.

cases are obviously to some extent exaggerated, some may be fraudulent,

:16:04.:16:10.

but the fact is, no government could ignore those sorts of statistics to

:16:11.:16:15.

not take action in such a case. What the government has done is not to

:16:16.:16:18.

take extreme options but to go for moderate options like a tariff of

:16:19.:16:25.

damages for these very minor cases. If it is a serious case of whiplash,

:16:26.:16:30.

where the damage would be substantial, then this tariff

:16:31.:16:35.

doesn't apply. For cases where the pain and suffering is less than two

:16:36.:16:39.

years and other minor nature. Against that background, to have

:16:40.:16:42.

that sort of tired is surely a reasonable approach. As far as the

:16:43.:16:46.

cases are concerned, if there's any of exceptional IT, there is a

:16:47.:16:51.

provision to uplift, so we see that this is an approach that is

:16:52.:16:55.

proportionate to the scale of the problem. In terms of the issue of

:16:56.:17:09.

violence against police or prison officers, which was raised by My

:17:10.:17:13.

Honourable Friend for Shipley, I would not totally agree with him

:17:14.:17:18.

about this because I think if there is genuinely balanced against a

:17:19.:17:19.

hard-working and dedicated prison officer, he has been assaulted, it

:17:20.:17:25.

is an offence and I think we should go further than My Honourable Friend

:17:26.:17:29.

suggests. I think that person should be prosecuted in the court for that

:17:30.:17:35.

offence and violence and that he should face swift justice and the

:17:36.:17:39.

court should give the verbal penalty, which is right for that

:17:40.:17:45.

offence. So I wouldn't be there as saying, it's a question of him

:17:46.:17:47.

serving his full-time for the original offence, I would say, he

:17:48.:17:50.

should serve the full-time for a serious offence of attacking a

:17:51.:17:55.

prison officer and so, I take a slightly different view to My

:17:56.:18:03.

Honourable Friend on that. Can I explain at the moment while, with

:18:04.:18:06.

all the assaults with God on prison officers, the average number of

:18:07.:18:10.

extra time that visitors spent in prison for a folding a prison

:18:11.:18:15.

officer is 16 days, which frankly is pathetic and insulting. My

:18:16.:18:19.

Honourable Friend is looking at something different, he's looking at

:18:20.:18:22.

adjudications within the prison for an offence of some sort but that's

:18:23.:18:28.

not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a situation where

:18:29.:18:31.

somebody's been assaulted, they should be going to the court. It

:18:32.:18:35.

shouldn't be an internal education if it is a serious matter and they

:18:36.:18:38.

should be taken to court and they should have the law. So that's the

:18:39.:18:43.

approach which I would take although I would be interested to discuss it

:18:44.:18:48.

further in committee. So, Mr Speaker, as a result of this bill,

:18:49.:18:53.

prisons will be safer, they will be places of reform. Our courts will

:18:54.:18:58.

provide straightforward access for all users. There will be stronger

:18:59.:19:03.

confidence in the justice system. We will enhance our Google reputation.

:19:04.:19:13.

This is a bold form of justice and I commend it to the House. The

:19:14.:19:18.

question is, the bill will be read a second time. The eyes have it, the

:19:19.:19:22.

eyes have it. The money resolution. The carry-over

:19:23.:19:37.

motion to be moved forward. The question is as on the order

:19:38.:20:09.

paper. The ayeses to the right -- ayes toll

:20:10.:30:36.

the right 180. The noes to the left, 13.

:30:37.:30:43.

THE SPEAKER: The ayes to the right, 180. The noes to the left, 13. The

:30:44.:30:52.

ayes have it. We come to the adjournment to move. The question

:30:53.:30:58.

is, that this House do not adjourn. Mr Hendry.

:30:59.:31:03.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am grateful for this opportunity to debate the

:31:04.:31:07.

Universal Credit full service roll out in the Highlands. In my

:31:08.:31:14.

constituency, there was a pilot area for this programme before it went to

:31:15.:31:18.

full service. I was very weary of the progress of that. But I was told

:31:19.:31:22.

at the time this would give an opportunity to iron out all of the

:31:23.:31:26.

problems, all of the difficulties and make sure there were none when

:31:27.:31:31.

it came to full service roll-out. I am afraid, Mr Speaker, that that was

:31:32.:31:35.

not the case and the problems have not been ironed out and this is

:31:36.:31:40.

actually causing pain, anxiety and hardship for people in my

:31:41.:31:45.

constituency. Now, what I hope to achieve from this debate is

:31:46.:31:49.

obviously to highlight the issues, to offer some solutions to the

:31:50.:31:54.

minister and to hopefully get the minister to accept that there is a

:31:55.:31:59.

need to pause this harmless roll-out just now. The intention with

:32:00.:32:05.

Universal Credit, I am sure, was not to cause this type of difficulty. I

:32:06.:32:12.

am sure the minister is not intent on punishing people by continuing

:32:13.:32:16.

with the programme as it is. And I hope that an outcome, as I say, is

:32:17.:32:21.

an understand from the minister of the problems that exist and a

:32:22.:32:24.

commitment to take action. Now, on that subject, I am grateful to the

:32:25.:32:28.

minister for his letter, which he wrotd to me on the 14th March

:32:29.:32:34.

responding to my very detailed letter and I think it is important

:32:35.:32:38.

in order to make sure that there is clarity that I refer to a number of

:32:39.:32:43.

points in that letter during my contribution this evening. He said

:32:44.:32:49.

that, in his response, that we are building and developing the

:32:50.:32:52.

Universal Credit service all the time T well, building and

:32:53.:32:55.

development by definition means that it is not completed. It is

:32:56.:33:00.

incomplete. I would contend at the moment it is unfit for use. You

:33:01.:33:05.

wouldn't build and develop a house and during that building and

:33:06.:33:08.

development period allow somebody to live in it. It is tantamount to what

:33:09.:33:12.

it is happening to my constituents. It is dangerous to their health. We

:33:13.:33:18.

have, in my constituency office alone, over 100 cases of Universal

:33:19.:33:22.

Credit issues. That's just us. That is not the other agencies that are

:33:23.:33:27.

involved. It is not the countless many, many more who are not getting

:33:28.:33:31.

any help at all. Don't know where to turn at the moment. Someone who has

:33:32.:33:37.

contacted us is a constituent of mine called Ian. He waited six weeks

:33:38.:33:42.

without any money. He had to eat at a food bank. He had to go days

:33:43.:33:47.

without electricity, all with a two year old living in his house. That's

:33:48.:33:53.

not acceptable. But he didn't even get any explanation about why that

:33:54.:33:58.

had happened. Now the Palestinester says, in his letter, I recognise

:33:59.:34:04.

that inverness Jobcentre Plus covers a large geographical area and many

:34:05.:34:10.

live some distance. Claimants are required to submit evidence, for

:34:11.:34:13.

example childcare cost receipts to the Jobcentre before the end of the

:34:14.:34:18.

assessment period. Well, submitting evidence isn't that easy, as we

:34:19.:34:22.

found out. Another of my constituents, Jean, had to travel to

:34:23.:34:29.

Inverness to hand in her childcare vouchers. A public transport journey

:34:30.:34:34.

an hour-and-a-half each way. A three-hour round trip. It would have

:34:35.:34:39.

been bad enough if she had put in the vouchers and that was the end of

:34:40.:34:44.

it. They lost the data. She had to make several more trips and it is

:34:45.:34:48.

still not resolved. It is not acceptable. Those issues are not

:34:49.:34:53.

available for people to upload online. You cannot, you have to

:34:54.:34:57.

actually, people actually have to hand in these vouchers to the

:34:58.:35:01.

Jobcentre. Now, why is it not possible for them to go to another

:35:02.:35:06.

local authority location and actually take care of that business

:35:07.:35:11.

there? There should be far more flexibility in the system. The

:35:12.:35:15.

minister went on to say that Universal Credit designed as a

:35:16.:35:19.

digital service to be accessed on line. That is as I pointed out not

:35:20.:35:24.

complete. He said, if people are having difficulty they can use an O

:35:25.:35:29.

345 number and an raters will offer to call a customer back if concerns

:35:30.:35:33.

are raised over the cost of the call. Again, you know, when you

:35:34.:35:37.

actually look at the digital by design issue, there is a big gap.

:35:38.:35:41.

There are 17% of people in the Highlands who never have used the

:35:42.:35:46.

internet. And there are also big areas of... I am happy to give way.

:35:47.:35:52.

My constituency of East Lothian was the first in Scotland to implement

:35:53.:35:59.

the full service roll-out. Has he had the experience that so many

:36:00.:36:04.

clients either lack access to IT equipment, or were inexperienced in

:36:05.:36:11.

it that they had to seek help from the CAB, from local library staff,

:36:12.:36:15.

from local social security staff. The result being that the full

:36:16.:36:19.

service roll-out can only be implemented be I the addition of

:36:20.:36:23.

massive amount of staff time from all those bodies?

:36:24.:36:26.

I absolutely agree with my honourable friend. I will make some

:36:27.:36:30.

more comments and an example of that in a moment. For those people who

:36:31.:36:34.

are suffer from digital exclusion, that's not the end of the problem

:36:35.:36:40.

because 0345 number is in effect a premium phone line. Another

:36:41.:36:45.

constituent, Claire, in tears in my office because she'd used her last

:36:46.:36:49.

?20 for credit for her mobile phone and she was held on the phone for 30

:36:50.:36:55.

minutes waiting to get through. When the call was evented dhully

:36:56.:37:00.

answered, having used -- eventually answered having used up all that

:37:01.:37:05.

credit, she was promised a call-back that never came. Two days later she

:37:06.:37:10.

appeared in our office. We phoned and it took 34 minutes to get

:37:11.:37:13.

through to get an answer on that case.

:37:14.:37:15.

Now the minister said to me that our latest data, this is what he said,

:37:16.:37:25.

our latest day data from February shows an answer time of eight to

:37:26.:37:29.

nine minutes. More resource is definitely required. That is a big

:37:30.:37:31.

change from the written answer that I had. It is an admission of an

:37:32.:37:37.

increasing time, even if it is not accurate because on 16th December I

:37:38.:37:41.

wrote to the minister to ask what the average call time was and I was

:37:42.:37:45.

told three minutes and 27 seconds. That is not correct even by the

:37:46.:37:51.

minister's own response. But the Citizens Advice office and my office

:37:52.:37:57.

decided to undertake an experiment where we timed to calls coming

:37:58.:38:02.

through. It took 28 minutes on average to get through to that line.

:38:03.:38:07.

Now, there is a requirement for a free 0800 support line. I hope the

:38:08.:38:11.

minister will take that on board. He also said in his letter there is no

:38:12.:38:15.

support, sorry, he said in reply to my claim that there was no support

:38:16.:38:21.

line for agencies or more MPs and he said, as I mentioned earlier

:38:22.:38:24.

Universal Credit is designed to be accessed on line and it is a once

:38:25.:38:28.

and done service. It might be once and done for the DWP, but it is not

:38:29.:38:32.

once and done for the constituents who are under pressure. I am happy

:38:33.:38:36.

to give way. Last week, at the joint meeting of

:38:37.:38:42.

the Scottish Parliament social security and Westminster's first

:38:43.:38:47.

committees, a representative from inclusion Scotland described the DWP

:38:48.:38:51.

by having a digital by default approach. It penalises people with

:38:52.:38:56.

sensory impairments and learning difficulties, apart from those who

:38:57.:39:01.

are not computer-literate. Should it be possible to contact the DWP by

:39:02.:39:06.

whatever means is most appropriate to claimants' circumstances? I do

:39:07.:39:11.

believe, as I said that that, once and done approach is for the DWP,

:39:12.:39:15.

not for the outcomes of constituents. I've gree entirely

:39:16.:39:21.

with my honourable -- I agree entirely with my honourable friend.

:39:22.:39:25.

A support line would create delays and confusion. I have news for the

:39:26.:39:30.

minister, there is already a great deal of confusion and there are an

:39:31.:39:35.

awful lot of delays which are causing people problems with that.

:39:36.:39:39.

He goes on to say this is a complex issue and research shows that many

:39:40.:39:48.

people are coming onto universal credit with pre-existing arrears.

:39:49.:39:55.

What the minister could perhaps do is tell it to a constituent of mine,

:39:56.:39:58.

John, who lived for three years in the same House. When transferred to

:39:59.:40:04.

universal credit, he was waiting for 12 weeks for his support. That was

:40:05.:40:09.

too long a wait for his landlord and the notice was served eviction frame

:40:10.:40:14.

to move out. The landlord was nice to my constituent about it just

:40:15.:40:17.

explained that she herself could not possibly wait because she was

:40:18.:40:23.

getting into financial difficulties in return. Landlords are awaiting an

:40:24.:40:27.

average of ten weeks and many are losing patience. Many landlords are

:40:28.:40:31.

now putting into their Windows, no universal credit because they don't

:40:32.:40:39.

want to take the risk. Alvin housing society have a 22% arrears level

:40:40.:40:44.

with tenants who are not on universal credit. Tenants with

:40:45.:40:54.

universal credit or 100% almost with album Housing Society. The average

:40:55.:41:01.

claimant in the Highlands is ?900. The Highland Council 's arrears

:41:02.:41:05.

themselves, through universal credit, are up 82% since September,

:41:06.:41:12.

now nearly ?1 million and just in case the minister is wondering,

:41:13.:41:15.

Highland Council deducted previous arrears from that that is 100% down

:41:16.:41:21.

to universal credit. That is going to affect services. Unless something

:41:22.:41:27.

is done about it. The Minister says that we'd taken a number of steps to

:41:28.:41:31.

prevent claimants, volley into arrears. I could also point to my

:41:32.:41:37.

constituent, Gavin, in a moment but I will say that the six-week wait

:41:38.:41:44.

for claims actually puts people in arrears by default, by definition if

:41:45.:41:47.

you're waiting for the money to come through, you're not paying your rent

:41:48.:41:52.

and are already in arrears. My constituent, Gavin, his rent is ?175

:41:53.:42:00.

per week. Under the old system, he got ?168 in housing allowance, 20

:42:01.:42:06.

had to find ?7 from his other entitlements. Not an easy job if

:42:07.:42:12.

you're on benefits but doable. Now onto universal credit, he gets ?60 a

:42:13.:42:17.

week. Even if he doesn't eat, if he doesn't turn on the power, if he

:42:18.:42:22.

doesn't do anything, if he said still, he cannot pay his rent. He is

:42:23.:42:27.

automatically in arrears. Finally, the minister advises me to go to

:42:28.:42:31.

look at details for the payment process which can be found in the

:42:32.:42:37.

third party creditor supplier handbag and that is dated March

:42:38.:42:42.

2015, two years ago. It is out of date and the information the UK

:42:43.:42:44.

Government are getting at the moment to defend their position is

:42:45.:42:50.

similarly out of date. There are other issues and I could spend a lot

:42:51.:42:54.

of time going through lots more cases to give examples but I'm

:42:55.:42:58.

hoping the Minister will take one of the many invitations to come to my

:42:59.:43:02.

constituency to hear from people, the tear from the agencies and super

:43:03.:43:06.

himself and here for himself which reveals of people. One, Mr Speaker,

:43:07.:43:14.

which is damning, is the issue with Macmillan Cancer care, that they

:43:15.:43:17.

have raised. Sometimes when somebody is terminally ill, they choose not

:43:18.:43:22.

to get the diagnosis directly to them because they just don't want to

:43:23.:43:26.

know. They want to live out their lives as they choose. Mr Speaker,

:43:27.:43:32.

universal credit forces the claimant to declare themselves in order to

:43:33.:43:37.

get the entitlement so therefore they must be told in order to make

:43:38.:43:44.

the claim to be put into a work group. Two things are wrong there.

:43:45.:43:48.

First, it is wrong they should have to do that and I hope the minister

:43:49.:43:51.

will take early action to sort that but certainly, why would they be put

:43:52.:43:56.

into a workgroup, there is no need for them to go into any workgroup.

:43:57.:43:59.

What needs to be done? The Scottish Government will use the 15%, the

:44:00.:44:04.

small amount of power for our welfare system that they have no

:44:05.:44:13.

control over this. All the Minister can ask them to do is to put more

:44:14.:44:18.

money to cover UK Government issues here. The citizens advice bureau

:44:19.:44:23.

asked for an additional single nonrefundable payment to bridge the

:44:24.:44:30.

six weeks between going on to universal credit from the standard

:44:31.:44:34.

system. The UK Government to give choice housing element to be paid

:44:35.:44:38.

direct or as part of a single payment. They too are calling for

:44:39.:44:42.

free helplines and they want the job centre support for those who are

:44:43.:44:49.

lacking in computer skills. Mr Speaker, the universal credit roll

:44:50.:44:55.

out can only be described as shambolic and it is punishing

:44:56.:45:00.

families. The disabled, the unemployed and the most vulnerable.

:45:01.:45:04.

There is a damning utterly of failure, confusion, heartache,

:45:05.:45:09.

indignity and a crashing drive towards increased poverty in the

:45:10.:45:12.

universal credit system. This includes long delays in payments,

:45:13.:45:19.

short payments, lost sick notes and childcare receipts, misplaced

:45:20.:45:22.

documents, failure to respond and confusion between departments. The

:45:23.:45:29.

universal roll out should be halted until it is fixed. The UK Government

:45:30.:45:34.

needs to bring in additional flexibility people to be able to

:45:35.:45:37.

receive what they need in order to survive and there needs to be an

:45:38.:45:42.

acknowledgement of this in an effort to fix and compensate the Highland

:45:43.:45:47.

Council rent arrears that have been run up today. Thank you. Thank you,

:45:48.:45:55.

Mr Speaker. I'd like to congratulate the Honorourable Member for

:45:56.:46:00.

Inverness and Strathspey for securing the debate on this

:46:01.:46:04.

important after and bringing his feedback and critique to the floor

:46:05.:46:09.

of the House today. Mr Speaker, I do recognise the concerns that have

:46:10.:46:12.

been raised and I'd like to reassure him that work is already underway to

:46:13.:46:17.

improve delivery. Today presents an opportunity to share with the House

:46:18.:46:22.

some of the ways in which the DWP has sought and is seeking to resolve

:46:23.:46:25.

obstacles on this ground-breaking project. Mr Speaker, there are now

:46:26.:46:34.

some 477 people on universal credit 2000 of them are in the honourable

:46:35.:46:36.

gentleman was my constituency. You would expect a programme of this

:46:37.:46:41.

magnitude, there have been challenges but I do want to assure

:46:42.:46:44.

Honorourable Members that were working quickly to do with them to

:46:45.:46:49.

ensure it is delivered safely and surgery. Irony lies specifically

:46:50.:46:52.

that the Honorourable Member has encountered a number of universal

:46:53.:46:57.

credit claimants who have had issues with the service and I am aware he

:46:58.:47:01.

has already been a discussion with the DWP district manager for North

:47:02.:47:09.

of Scotland. I do acknowledge also what he says in outlining locations

:47:10.:47:15.

when things have gone wrong, if something has been displayed and so

:47:16.:47:18.

on and for those occasions, I am sorry. I commend what he is doing,

:47:19.:47:25.

both for and with local organisations in his constituents,

:47:26.:47:29.

bringing together local stakeholders, trying to address

:47:30.:47:32.

details, helping people solve problems is important to ensuring

:47:33.:47:36.

the safe delivery of this historic reform. The honourable gentleman has

:47:37.:47:40.

spoken of the diligence, commitment and work ethic of our key

:47:41.:47:43.

stakeholders, local partners and staff and Mr Speaker, I echo that.

:47:44.:47:46.

The King ahead the other Highland echoes that are due to roll out

:47:47.:47:53.

credit service, are in the limitation strategy is underway and

:47:54.:47:56.

we will soon be having a conversation at a more local level.

:47:57.:48:01.

The remaining job centre sites or blind to the Highland Council area

:48:02.:48:06.

will roll out in July 2017 and as part of the fermentation activities,

:48:07.:48:11.

have an external plan to ensure all those involved have a proper

:48:12.:48:14.

overview of universal credit before it arrives at the job centre. I

:48:15.:48:23.

welcome his words in recognising the issue and I think that is the right

:48:24.:48:29.

thing to do. I wonder if, before the roll-out that he is proposing

:48:30.:48:33.

continues into the rest of the Highlands, will he take up my offer

:48:34.:48:37.

of coming to visit to speak to the organisations locally and understand

:48:38.:48:40.

directly what is happening to claimants in my constituency? Mr

:48:41.:48:46.

Speaker, let me thank him for that offer, and I do welcome the

:48:47.:48:51.

opportunity to speak with local organisations throughout the

:48:52.:48:57.

country. By most recent visit to a job centre was this morning and I

:48:58.:48:59.

plan to make another one on Thursday. There are several hundred

:49:00.:49:06.

job centres throughout the country and my aim is to try and represent

:49:07.:49:15.

beat and critique to help our understanding of these issues going

:49:16.:49:18.

forward. I also welcome the cliquish and I have had with him in that

:49:19.:49:25.

regard. Mr Speaker, we established the dedicated team of employer and

:49:26.:49:31.

partnership staff who are deployed to engage directly with stakeholders

:49:32.:49:34.

including local authorities and landlords to insure their is a

:49:35.:49:37.

joined up approach to supporting universal credit claimants. I do

:49:38.:49:41.

know that housing arrears or an area of concern, which is why that is

:49:42.:49:45.

readily subject to discussion in our Highland operational forum.

:49:46.:49:49.

Discussing the issues in this way has led to effective troubleshooting

:49:50.:49:54.

measures. To begin with, we're embarking on its Pacific piece of

:49:55.:49:58.

work to monitor Highland Council cases with housing costs to try and

:49:59.:50:02.

establish the root causes of any delays in the process. I do

:50:03.:50:05.

appreciate the concern that exists around rent arrears and it's an

:50:06.:50:08.

issue I know matters to a lot of people. The reality is, there's a

:50:09.:50:13.

lot of complex and overlapping factors at play. The roll-out of

:50:14.:50:16.

universal credit is by no means the sole factor contributed to arrears.

:50:17.:50:22.

Consider for a moment that according to the latest report published by

:50:23.:50:26.

the National Federation for ALM those, over three quarters of their

:50:27.:50:30.

tenants who have fallen into arrears were already behind with their rent

:50:31.:50:33.

before commencing their universal credit claim. Some of the rent

:50:34.:50:37.

arrears are clearly a chubby table to the charging policies of

:50:38.:50:42.

landlords that can create book arrears from the outset of the

:50:43.:50:45.

tenancy. This is a simple definitional point. A landlord that

:50:46.:50:51.

previously charged rent on a weekly basis will appear to be missing rent

:50:52.:50:55.

payments under the new system which pays claimants housing costs on a

:50:56.:50:59.

monthly cycle in arrears. We think there are the reasons for this

:51:00.:51:03.

change. Became the division is to create a welfare system that more

:51:04.:51:08.

closely welcomes -- mirrors the world of work. Our research shows

:51:09.:51:11.

the majority of gamers are comfortable managing their own

:51:12.:51:14.

budgets and furthermore we know after four months, the proportionate

:51:15.:51:18.

claimants who were in arrears at the start of their claim, fell by a

:51:19.:51:25.

third. Ultimately, I want to make sure I cover the points but if there

:51:26.:51:29.

is still time at the end, I will of course. Many people are coming on

:51:30.:51:32.

the universal credit with pre-existing arrears is contributing

:51:33.:51:36.

to the overall went arrears issue. Let me reassure the House that there

:51:37.:51:41.

are safeguards in place claimants including advances, budgeting

:51:42.:51:43.

support and tenet of payment arrangements. Research shows over

:51:44.:51:49.

time, claimants successfully reduced their careers. This work goes

:51:50.:51:52.

hand-in-hand with our work on improving the of claimants by the

:51:53.:51:57.

end of the first assessment period. This includes providing the customer

:51:58.:52:02.

journey, improving the payment of housing costs, improving indications

:52:03.:52:05.

the landlords and local authorities, and stream running the way

:52:06.:52:08.

information is verified. The project team are regularly monitoring the

:52:09.:52:12.

timeliness of payments and if they identify delays, they take action

:52:13.:52:16.

quickly. There is a positive trend in the honourable gentleman was my

:52:17.:52:20.

constituency with the begin the improvements and timeliness month on

:52:21.:52:25.

month. I recognise rural areas such as the Highlands make this

:52:26.:52:29.

particular challenges. There were concerns raised by colleagues

:52:30.:52:32.

regarding the pace of roll-out. We listen to those concerns and in

:52:33.:52:36.

tandem with a buoyant local labour market, we made the decision to

:52:37.:52:40.

adjust the roll-out's schedule at remaining Highland site. We moved

:52:41.:52:43.

the role of state for the remaining Highland sites back from November 20

:52:44.:52:52.

16th to July 2017. And aware also that some claimants have reported a

:52:53.:52:58.

face increased travel times to meet with their workload the handover

:52:59.:53:01.

documentation. In response we have made changes to the design of

:53:02.:53:05.

universal credit digital service so that before the end of this year,

:53:06.:53:08.

claimants will be able to upload certain evidence to the online

:53:09.:53:12.

system. Claimants can deliver evidence at any time during the

:53:13.:53:15.

monthly assessment period. This gives claimants valuable leeway to

:53:16.:53:24.

find a continue way or make use of the postal service. Although

:53:25.:53:28.

universal credit is orientated around claimants making use of the

:53:29.:53:34.

online service, claimants can also telephone the service centre for

:53:35.:53:36.

help and support to exchange information. I want to reiterate

:53:37.:53:41.

that this service does not involve claimants having to dial a premium

:53:42.:53:47.

rate number. Ofcom regular issue is require all phone providers to treat

:53:48.:53:52.

colds to 03 numbers, the same as a call to a normal home or business

:53:53.:53:56.

landline. If claimants remain concerned about the cost of calling,

:53:57.:54:03.

they can ask to be called back. I recognise that his constituents have

:54:04.:54:05.

also reported excessive waiting times on these calls. We do

:54:06.:54:10.

recognise that improvements can be made in this area and that is why we

:54:11.:54:14.

have omitted additional resources to reducing waiting times. The latest

:54:15.:54:18.

data shows claimants are now awaiting a maximum of eight or nine

:54:19.:54:22.

minutes before the call is answered. With even more resources being

:54:23.:54:26.

invested throughout March, the support telephony services, I do

:54:27.:54:30.

feel confident that the long waiting times will become a thing of the

:54:31.:54:36.

past. I was also pleased to know that an agreement has been reached

:54:37.:54:40.

at a local level to the satisfaction of the honourable gentleman in

:54:41.:54:43.

connection with the case of one of his constituents experiencing

:54:44.:54:47.

particular problems with delivering evidence to the Department regarding

:54:48.:54:52.

their childcare costs, involving the constituent posting their fixation

:54:53.:55:00.

and also sending by e-mail. I know many members have expressed concern

:55:01.:55:04.

about the procedures under universal credit that determine whether an MP

:55:05.:55:09.

can access the personal details of their constituents. If not already

:55:10.:55:14.

aware, I would draw the Honorourable Members attention to the statement

:55:15.:55:21.

on the 13th of this month where he agrees that the arrangements that

:55:22.:55:28.

exist in the legacy benefits can continue within universal credit.

:55:29.:55:32.

This will ensure that MPs are able to Act quickly on the half of their

:55:33.:55:40.

constituents and I hope that members will feel assured of this.

:55:41.:55:42.

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