Browse content similar to 13/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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A message from the Commons that they disagree to the amendments made by | :00:08. | :00:14. | |
the House of Lords to the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
Bill for which they assign reasons. My Lord I beg to move that the | :00:19. | :00:20. | |
Commons reasons be considered forthwith. The question is that the | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
Commons reasons be considered forthwith. As many of that opinion | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
will stay content. The contrary not content. The content ball have it. | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
I beg to move a motion a that this House does not insist on amendment | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
one to which the other place disagreed for their reason one A. My | :00:44. | :00:51. | |
Lords, now we are past the 70th hour of parliamentary debate on these 137 | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
words let me begin by saying this. The United Kingdom's withdrawal from | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
the European Union is obviously one of the most momentous steps that our | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
nation will take in our lifetimes. I believe that significant | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
opportunities do indeed lie before us. But as someone who voted to | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
remain, I am not deaf to people's concerns and I do not dismiss those | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
concerns as somehow portraying a lack of patriotism. But that | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
decision to leave the European Union has been made and this Bill, this | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
very simple Bill, delivers on that decision. The debate has been one of | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
conviction and passion and has displayed some of the very best | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
qualities of your lordship's house. But despite my best efforts to | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
convince your Lordships' otherwise this little Bill was amended twice. | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
Now we all agreed that this House is perfectly entitled to ask the other | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
place to think again. And the other place has now done that. And debated | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
this again. And once again they have decided to pass this Bill without | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
amendment. The issue at stake in this amendment is very simple. We | :02:04. | :02:11. | |
all agree we want to give certainty for those EU nationals who have made | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
the United Kingdom their home and UK nationals who live in the EU. The | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
disagreement is over how we do that. And the Government's position has | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
been clear from June. We have always said that we want to secure the | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
status of EU citizens here in the UK so long as we get a similar | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
guaranteed for UK citizens in the EU. We believe this approach is fair | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
and reflects the duty of care we have as a government to the 900,000 | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
UK citizens in the EU. My Lords, we need an agreement on this issue | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
quickly and we have tried to get one. However a number of EU member | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
states were not willing to discuss it until we have begun the formal | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
negotiations and that is why my right honourable friend the | :03:01. | :03:01. | |
Secretary of State confirmed over the weekend that we intend this | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
issue to be one of the first to stillbirth. And that is why we want | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
to pass this Bill as possible so we can start negotiating and set about | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
reaching that agreement. -- first to discuss. Even the other place has | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
done as we have asked and thought again and decided to reject this | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
majority of 48. Given all this I would argue, with respect, that this | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
evening is really not the time nor the place to return to the fray and | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
insert terms and conditions to our negotiating condition still listed | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
as the place the Government make a unilateral move as regard the status | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
of EU nationals in the UK. This Bill has only one purpose, the lengthy | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
outcome of the referendum result in June and respect the judgment of the | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
supreme court. Nothing more, nothing less. So I urge this has two pass | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
this Bill unamended and I beg to move. The question is that Bush and | :04:00. | :04:07. | |
Abie agreed to come amendment one, Lord Davies. My Lords, I beg to move | :04:08. | :04:15. | |
and one is the motion to one day, they vowed, do insist on this | :04:16. | :04:23. | |
amendment one. I do so for the following reasons. First, despite | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
the large majority which voted for the amendment to the Bill in this | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
House, the Government has failed not only to make any concessions but it | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
has not even attempted to address the many issues that were raised by | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
noble lord at Committee Stage. Secondly the profound nature of the | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
issue at stake should make us think very carefully before we concede. | :04:50. | :04:56. | |
This debate is not on some arcane technicality or over some petty | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
partisan disagreement. It is about people's lives. It is about whether | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
people will be allowed to live in the country they have made their | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
home with the people for whom they care. Whether they can stay in a job | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
or plan a career, whether their children can remain in the school | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
they know and study with the friends they have made. It is about their | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
futures, homes and families and it is about the fear and misery that is | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
being caused by every further day of uncertainty. Thirdly, we should | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
weigh our decision very carefully because this debate is also about | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
the integrity of our country. It is about whether we will honour the | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
unequivocal commitment made by the official from leaves campaign that | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
if the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union, the rights of | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
all EU citizens in the UK would be guaranteed. Unlike most other issues | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
arising from the referendum, there is absolutely no dispute about what | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
was promised to EU citizens. During the campaign the vote leaves | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
campaign which was supported by a number of Noble Lords in this House | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
made the following categorical statement. There will be no change | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
present. There were no caveats, no issue of replica city or talk of | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
negotiations. Just eight categorical commitment unilaterally given. And | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
finally, this debate is about the role of this House. President | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
indicates that when the rights of individuals have been threatened, | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
this House has always been robust in its defence of them. I hope we will | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
live up to that president today. So, the facts are clear, a firm and | :07:04. | :07:11. | |
explicit commitment was made by the Vote Leave campaign that rights of | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
EU citizens in the UK would be protected. Parliamentary committees | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
of both houses agreed that a unilateral guaranteed should be | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
provided now. And all the bodies representing British citizens in the | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
EU who have contacted me and many other members of this House have | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
supported that position. It is clear that if we do not insist on or | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
amendment, there is a real possibility that EU citizens in the | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
UK and UK citizens in the EU may not have clarity as to their status for | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
another two years. The Commons exiting the EU Committee rightly | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
described such a situation as unconscionable. I understand the | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
nervousness of some Noble Lords about challenging the elected house | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
on this matter. But to those who argue that this is not the right | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
time for us to insist on or amendment, or this Bill is the wrong | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
place for us to insist, or that president tells us we should do | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
insist, I would respectively argued the contrary. But if your lordship's | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
EU just a sub sub Committee and the House of Commons exiting the EU | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
Committee unanimously agreed that the UK should act unilaterally and | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
that the time to act is now. This Bill is the only place to act if we | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
are to end the debilitating uncertainty that is causing so much | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
distress. The minister says that we have a right to amend the Bill. My | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
Lords, we also have a right to insist on our amendments. And the | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
president tells us that we should. But when issues of important | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
principle or individuals are at stake your Lordships' house can and | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
does insist on its position and necessary repeatedly pushes the | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
issue back to the conference. It did so on the 2014 criminal Justice and | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
Courts Bill and be 2012 legal aid sentencing and punishment of | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
offenders Bill. It did so three times over the 2007 corporate | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
manslaughter and homicide Bill, four times over the 2006 identity cards | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
Bill and five times over the 2005 prevention of terrorism Bill. And it | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
has regularly insisted on amendments to bills went far less was at stake | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
than today. On the powers of the learning and skills Council, with | :09:44. | :09:45. | |
the means by which the chairman of the legal services board has | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
appointed or even on the fitting of retro reflective tape on heavy goods | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
vehicles whatever that is. How then, when the rights of millions of | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
people are on the line, could this has given up at the first attempt? | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
Howell, went clear and unequivocal commitments were made to EU citizens | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
in our country, could this has failed to insist that they are | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
upheld? How, when the integrity of our country is at stake, could this | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
has failed to insist that it is upheld? My Lords, many people will | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
be watching us tonight will stop please them all. But we can show | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
them that no matter the pressures from the media or threats from the | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
Government we are prepared to do what we know to be the right thing. | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
I have no doubt that the right thing is to insist on this amendment. To | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
protect the rights of EU citizens in the UK and in doing so to uphold the | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
honour and integrity of this country. My Lords, I beg to move. | :10:53. | :11:10. | |
The original question was that motion A be agreed to since when | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
motion amendment A1 has been grew to leave out from the House to the end | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
to insert, do insist on its amendment one. The question | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
therefore is that amendment A1 be agreed to. It is not in anyway my | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
intention to repeat the arguments I have used about Brexit in the | :11:32. | :11:33. | |
various sessions we have had over the last few weeks. But there is a | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
question that I must ask to the noble lord. And it is a question the | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
answer to West I think is very important indeed all of us because | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
it it goes to the heart of the earliest intention of the Government | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
to be quite transparent with the House and the public as these Brexit | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
negotiations continue. As they will do for a long time starting | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
presumably in a few days' time. I have not been very successful in | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
getting answers to questions I have asked the Minister in previous | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
sessions on this Bill. I concern with a big thinking it is maybe | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
because I have touched some rather delicate things and potentially | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
embarrassing points but that is not great consolation. I would rather | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
have full and frank answers and I do hope that I have one tonight. But it | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
all my interest but in the interests of the issues I have just raised. | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
The Minister has just told the House today and the Prime Minister and the | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
Minister for Brexit has said on many occasions that it is their intention | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
and original hope to negotiate a deal on the future residency rights | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
of EU citizens here and of British citizens in the remaining part of | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
the EU in advance even giving notice in Article 50, but that proved | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
unfortunately impossible because as other continentals were willing to | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
do that and now the Government would really like to negotiate on that | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
matter, resolve it in advance of negotiations on other general | :13:03. | :13:04. | |
subjects, economic and other difficulties. So that because the | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
quickly. My Lords, my question is this, how can that possibly be | :13:11. | :13:18. | |
cosmic because a negotiation on residency rights of British citizens | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
in the EU or EU citizens here is nothing -- not a negotiation that | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
this can be pursued, it is not a matter for Mr Juncker. Residency | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
issues, the regime regarding persons who are not members were citizens of | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
a member state, but equally not citizens of another member state, or | :13:43. | :13:51. | |
a non-EU state, residency issues, residency requirements, residency | :13:52. | :13:53. | |
regimes throughout the European Union are not a matter for the | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
treaty. They are a matter for each individual member state. Every | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
individual member state has its own residency rules as they are | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
different. What is more, the arguments and the forces would be | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
brought to bear if there is a suggestion of changing those | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
residency rules will be different in each country. So if you want to | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
negotiate the Prime Minister says that as the noble lord has said this | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
evening, in order to negotiate on the particular matter, you have to | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
conduct a separate bilateral negotiation with 27 different | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
countries. And eventually the result of that negotiation has to be | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
ratified by 27 different countries, actually 28 because it is ratified | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
here I hope. That is not something that can be done in a few weeks, but | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
even something that I can be done in a short number of months, it is | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
something that if it had been attempted before, notice was given | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
under Article 50, would have been delayed by many months, the issuing | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
of a notice under Article 50, quite contrary to the Minister said her | :14:54. | :14:55. | |
intention was. That is something which was undertaken immediately we | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
do issuing notice under Article 50 would itself delay the procedures | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
for a very long time. How can it be that in fact the Government thought | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
that this was a way of accelerating progress on the Brexit negotiations? | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
I think that is a question which nobody ever asked. I tried to ask | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
the other day but I wasn't able to capture your Lordships' attention. I | :15:18. | :15:24. | |
ask it now. It is something which is absolutely essential if I think the | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
House is going to achieve a complete picture of what is really going on | :15:30. | :15:30. | |
in this very important area. I want to speak on an issue | :15:31. | :15:43. | |
tangential to the one raised by my noble friend and I rise to ask a | :15:44. | :15:50. | |
couple of simple questions and they are essentially the subject of an | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
amendment that I tabled to the Bill last week and which was subsequently | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
removed when it became clear that the amendment on these matters and | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
my noble friends from the front bench was likely to be carried by | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
the House. My first question is under a mixed agreement association, | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
does a negotiated settlement in the council remain valid as far as the | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
rights of United Kingdom citizens living in Europe are concerned, even | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
if such an agreement was not supported in either your European | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
Parliament or in the parliaments of the nation states? Does it stand | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
alone? And secondly, in the event that we were to take this whole | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
debate on EU and UK citizens rights outside the Article 50 process, | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
which is what essentially my Lords appear to be alluding to, the | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
hurdles of qualified majority voting, the hurdle of a European | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
Parliament vote and approval by nation states were to be avoided, | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
that is if they are actually required, and also if we had | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
problems and in the event that a number of European states outside | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
Article 50 were to indicate their support for upholding the indefinite | :17:23. | :17:30. | |
rights of UK citizens living in the EU, would the government in those | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
circumstances be prepared to concede the rights of EU citizens from those | :17:37. | :17:45. | |
same states living in the United Kingdom? That would mean that some | :17:46. | :17:47. | |
states who did not agree would be excluded. The government being able | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
to do so would be reading the hurdles of the European Parliament | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
or votes in national parliaments if they are needed. -- would be | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
removing the hurdles. That approach would lead to an earlier closure on | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
the whole debate, which members are concerned will be dragged out over | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
years. It is all right by Minister saying that UK citizens rights will | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
be top of the agenda but what is worrying some of us is that a | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
victory or a so-called victory in the Council of ministers may not | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
provide the assurances that people want and also that assurances given | :18:29. | :18:39. | |
in private to David Davis that some countries may seek to carry | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
decisions on citizenship into arguments that some countries, who | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
despite the insurance of David Davis, they seek to carry their | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
decisions on citizenship actually into arguments over the contribution | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
that Russian must -- that the United Kingdom must make to wind up costs. | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
It might be that despite all of these Asher and says that | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
governments, nation states in Europe, might say we are going to | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
turn this into an argument about the contributions of Britain and I | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
wonder in that light if the Minister would be prepared to give me a | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
response. -- despite all of these assurances. I have no doubt that | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
Article 50 must be triggered sooner rather than later but I have equally | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
no doubt of the merits of this motion on this particular amendment, | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
I supported it before as did 358 members of this House, a majority of | :19:37. | :19:43. | |
102. Those decisions we take in this House are nicely balanced. This one | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
I suggest is perfectly clear, arguments are compelling no one | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
doubts the need for the EU nationals already lawfully here to remain | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
here, for the sake of health services, the care services, the | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
building industry and so forth and no one doubts that those we most | :20:05. | :20:12. | |
need to stay are starting to bleed away. Remember what Lord Winston | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
said about the medics, read your Times newspaper and a letter from | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
the academics at Oxford today. The government says assurances are | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
unnecessary, in fact no possibility of our ever wanting to deny these | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
people are present rights let alone deport them. And of course logically | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
that is indeed so but as the hammer during of this group shows -- but as | :20:41. | :20:52. | |
the haemorrhage of this group shows, it was said that fairness demands | :20:53. | :21:01. | |
that all expatriates, EU nationals are treated identically so that no | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
assurance should be given to those here until reciprocal assurances are | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
given to our citizens in the other member states. I would give three | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
answers to that suggestion. First, this. As the noble Lord Lord Hani | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
and others pointed out, those representing UK nationals in other | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
EU states positively support our giving this assurance and they | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
believe rightly, I would suggest, that their case would be | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
strengthened, not weakened, by our taking this initiative. As the noble | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
Lord said in committee, a generous gesture freely given will assist in | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
creating a good climate for the start of these negotiations, | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
difficult though they are going to be with the other 27 nations as the | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
noble Lord Lord Davies has emphasised again today but that is | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
reason one. Reason to, the stronger the government point that really no | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
assurance is necessary because EU nationals here are desperately | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
needed for our own economy, health service and so forth and therefore | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
they face no risk of losing these rights anyway, the stronger that | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
argument, the weaker the argument that there is actually any advantage | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
to our citizens abroad in keeping the future of EU nationals here in | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
doubt for the purpose of negotiating our national is' future abroad. In | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
short, even if other member states chose not to allow UK nationals to | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
remain there, and we can understand the case of some of theirs is rather | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
less compelling than our need here to keep EU nationals here, we should | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
still want to keep their nationals here. And thirdly, this. It is | :22:59. | :23:06. | |
hardly the size in -- surprising that other states are refusing to | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
discuss this issue until we actually trigger Article 50 but it is the | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
UK's decision to pursue Brexit, sensible or not, obviously there are | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
different views on that, but it is that decision which has precipitated | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
this crisis, created this uncertainty, the insecurity felt by | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
this group. We can and should, I suggest, and lay their fears at the | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
same time as we trigger Article 50. This clause will not delay it. The | :23:38. | :23:46. | |
noble lord knows I agree with much of what he is saying but that is not | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
the issue tonight. The issue tonight is whether we recognise our | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
constitutional limitations and whether we fly in the face of what | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
the Commons, having been given the opportunity to reconsider, has now | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
decided emphatically and as a great constitutionalist, which the noble | :24:06. | :24:07. | |
Lord is, I would think he would agree with that. Of course I agree, | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
I have never previously voted against government ping-pong. I | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
don't know how often my noble friend plays ping-pong but is it so | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
exceptional to keep a rally going beyond two strokes? I would suggest | :24:27. | :24:39. | |
not. I suggest we do it. I support the amendment. The amendment that | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
was carried in this House a few days ago was by a huge majority on a near | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
record turnout of noble Lords in that division. It appears to me that | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
very little attempt has been made, if any, to meet the points that were | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
made in this chamber the government has relied on its power to get a | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
whipped vote through anti-steam roller this through the stop the | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
government could have accepted this or they could have come and met us | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
but they have not done so. -- and steam roller this through. Regarding | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
the government seeking other countries in the European Union to | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
agree to the status of UK citizens first, what if they don't? What if | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
they don't, do we then pick out European citizens that are here? Is | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
that the logic of the argument? If it is, is that acceptable to this | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
House? My Lords, the noble Lord Lord Bridges said this is a debate of | :25:38. | :25:44. | |
conviction and of passion. Yes it is a debate of conviction and | :25:45. | :25:46. | |
convictions do not change just because they have been beaten by a | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
whipped vote in another place. They don't get kicked into touch. My | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
conviction still stands and however others will do tonight, mine will | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
stand in the division lobby. I added my name to and spoke in favour of | :26:01. | :26:08. | |
and voted for the original amendment and I believe that the arguments | :26:09. | :26:10. | |
that were advanced in support of that amendment were correct and | :26:11. | :26:17. | |
remain so today. The fact that the government has chosen to force | :26:18. | :26:19. | |
through the Bill in its unamended form doesn't change my view on that. | :26:20. | :26:27. | |
It is perhaps worthy of noting as was noted by the noble Lord that | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
although one of the arguments put forward was concern by the | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
government, concern about the status of UK citizens in the rest of the | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
European Union, much of the support for the amendment have come from | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
those UK nationals who felt the amendment living in the European | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
Union who felt that our amendment was in their interests. Now, my | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
Lords, I only speak because I feel I cannot keep silence the night. In | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
view of all the communications one has received from people asking one | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
to insist on this particular amendment. But I feel that I have to | :27:10. | :27:17. | |
say openly and publicly that I cannot support continued insistence, | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
which in different circumstances I would have been tempted so to do. To | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
do so is possibly to delay the process of invoking Article 50, | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
which would not be in the interest of the European Union or indeed the | :27:35. | :27:42. | |
United Kingdom and indeed if I accept, and of course I accept, from | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
the noble lord the minister, it could delay the start of | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
negotiations to safeguard the interests of EU citizens here and UK | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
citizens in the European Union. But I would, my Lords, make one comment. | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
Which is applicable to the second amendment moved tonight. I hope that | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
the government and those with in it who favour a quick, Haj Brexit | :28:11. | :28:18. | |
appreciate -- hard Brexit that the referendum, whilst expressing the | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
will of the people, did not give them a blank cheque as to how to | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
implement it and that the answer to any question or criticism cannot be | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
an allegation that the questioner is trying to thwart the will of the | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
people and somehow acting undemocratically. It is neither an | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
answer to the question nor is it true. Many of us who at this time at | :28:40. | :28:47. | |
least have to accept the inevitability of the referendum and | :28:48. | :28:50. | |
Brexit want to maintain closest possible links with the European | :28:51. | :28:59. | |
Union. My Lords, there are many ways to... Take you out into the street | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
and it is perfectly possible to want to be nearer to Millbank or the | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
Westminster Underground. There are valid reasons for choosing either | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
but there is not much wisdom in choosing to leap out at the -- of | :29:12. | :29:18. | |
the nearest first-floor window. Those of us who believe we were | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
correct in passing this amendment and asking the other place to think | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
again will not be pressured into acquiescence by continued | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
allegations that our actions are undemocratic, ignore the people or | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
are disloyal. I have to say my Lords from these benches and my point of | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
view about the European Union, we don't need lessons in loyalty from | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
some, not all, I accept, whose history on the issues of Europe make | :29:47. | :29:57. | |
them experts in disloyalty. I would like to put my name to the amendment | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
that has been rejected by the Commons which we are now debating | :30:01. | :30:07. | |
another amendment on. My position is identical to the noble Lord. I have | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
not moved from my belief in a unilateral statement by the British | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
government would be best for the United Kingdom and best for our | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
citizens in the rest of Europe. But like the noble Lord I am not sure | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
this is the moment to return the ball. But if I may just say to the | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
noble lord the Minister, I have many dealings over the years with the | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
noble lady Baroness Thatcher, mainly on budgetary issues, which were | :30:38. | :30:38. | |
quite stressful. On one occasion when I persuaded her | :30:39. | :30:48. | |
to follow a tactic that I suggested would be the best and she was | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
doubtful about, she looked up and she said, OK, but you had better be | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
right. Well, that is what I say to the Government because their choice | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
of a transactional approach could end in tears and then we will be | :31:02. | :31:09. | |
back here. May I just very briefly come in, as your Lordships' know I | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
voted for the amendments that the Committee Stage, but for the reasons | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
advanced by my noble friend Lord Bowness and for the advanced | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
primates Lord Cormack and Lord Hani I shall not be supporting this | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
moment. I think it has time to come to accept the House of Commons view. | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
There has been a great deal of weeping and gnashing of gums on | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
these issues in recent weeks and months. I don't like the Government | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
policy on this either. It appears to be if we can't help everyone we | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
won't help anyone. Nevertheless, my Lords, we have asked the other place | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
to think again. They have fought again. They have not taken our | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
advice and roll now I believe is not to insist. Front bench. Front bench. | :32:01. | :32:13. | |
I don't want to repeat what I said and I have been listening to people. | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
Some of us who object to the amendments, it isn't because we lack | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
sympathy, understanding or compassion. We did it simply because | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
we thought there was a confusion of process with substance. The second | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
thing that we object to is this which appeared in the Government | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
paper 6.2. It says well we are members of the EU the rights of EU | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
nationals living in the UK and UK nationals living in the EU remain | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
unchanged, as provided for both in the EU free movement directive | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
Article 16 of 2004... And in UK law. Those who have continuously and | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
lawfully been in a country for at least five years automatically have | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
a permanent right to reside. And at the time of Brexit, if that happens | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
and I'm sure it'll happen, EU law will be incorporated into British | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
law. It will be quite a tough thing for the Government went there has | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
been this, to argue that those who have been here for more than five | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
years do not have a right to reside and what it has been passed on the | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
other guys will have to argue again, as far as I am concerned, I came | :33:38. | :33:45. | |
here running from means of torture and difficulty of nearly 50 years I | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
was levelling under the travel document, as a student I was | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
prevented from working, so I know the difficulties. But when I sit | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
here and I think of the members who said that the other side isn't the | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
only one who is right, I think we should all find a language which | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
talks about people as people, they are being used as a bargaining chip, | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
that can't be right, because that casts aspersions who are arguing the | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
other way. And so, my Lords, I think the time has come for us to decide, | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
and I will find it difficult if we want a quick resolution to the EU | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
citizens who are living in this country to continue with further | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
delay as tricking the article as quickly as possible. -- triggering. | :34:41. | :34:49. | |
May I thank the Minister for his rather unfortunate task of having to | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
bring to us the regrettable decision of the Commons on the rights of EU | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
nationals living here, many of course married to Brits with | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
British-born children and possibly no right to remain after Brexit | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
date. This has by a majority of 102 at the Commons to do two very easy | :35:07. | :35:14. | |
things and it asks for both pragmatic and ethical reasons. One | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
was to make it clear to EU citizens whether Brits abroad or Europeans | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
here should not be treated as bargaining chips, to be traded off | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
against each other. The House felt strongly that these families who had | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
as a result of our forthcoming exit suddenly found their own lives on | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
hold given the uncertainty over their future should have their | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
rights secured as soon as possible, but without holding one group's | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
interest hostage for those of another group. Secondly we called on | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
the Prime Minister to act unilaterally in the one area under | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
her control and to say to EU nationals we will ensure you | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
continue to have the rights you expected when you arrived even after | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
we withdraw from the EU. We did it because of the cause of those | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
affected and also of their employers fear the loss of valuable | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
colleagues, some 25,000 from the health service alone now thinking of | :36:13. | :36:20. | |
leaving. The Government and the Commons have rejected Oracle, though | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
I absolve the Brexit Committee who unanimously felt that the Government | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
should act unilaterally on this. And the only reason for the rejection is | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
that it is not a matter that needs to be dealt with in the Bill. | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
Presumably the Government have no other rational for saying to those | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
here, you must wait to know about your future until the 27 have agreed | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
how they will treat UK nationals. But that could take months if not | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
years. We are hearing from Brussels that although citizens rights will | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
be high on the negotiator's agenda it could take years for the final | :36:59. | :37:05. | |
deal as I believe Liam Fox and David Davies confirmed yesterday | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
reflecting on the normal practice of nothing is agreed until everything | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
is agreed. We regret this delay and we lay the blame for this hiatus | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
fairly and squarely at the door of number ten. But we will also | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
campaign for an early resolution to the plight of those caught up in the | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
legal Neverland not of their making. And we will continue to press the | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
Government to move on this and to provide the certainty of our | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
amendments sought. Albeit maybe by other, perhaps I should say | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
imaginative parliamentary roots, a number of which are already under | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
consideration. Because the people concerned cannot wait until March | :37:50. | :37:57. | |
the 20 19th hear their fate -- March 20 19. Turning to the Liberal | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
Democrat amendment, we do not think this is irresponsible move. It is | :38:02. | :38:08. | |
not one that we could support. This has's of Uganda by a majority of | :38:09. | :38:20. | |
102, is clear -- this has's view. As the mover of the original motion, no | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
one in this has will doubt my support, but our view has been | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
rejected in the elected House of Commons and it is clear that the | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
Government is not for turning. On behalf of the opposition I say to | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
the people concerned, we are not giving up on new. We will pursue | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
your interests -- on new. We will pursue your distance in other ways | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
and I will take no lessons from the Liberal Democrats! Who confessed to | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
me outside the chamber that this is appealing to their core vote and | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
they are piling on members because of it. So we are here to move the | :39:01. | :39:09. | |
amendment to help them make members. Well, that may be suitable for them, | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
that is not taking this House is a legislative body seriously. And more | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
than that, they are falsely raising people's hopes when they know that | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
this government in the Commons, despite my best endeavours and | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
others are not going to change their mind, so they should think hard | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
about what they are doing to those people whose expectations they are | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
raising, which will not be fulfilled. I worry that they are | :39:42. | :39:48. | |
also making a bit of a mockery of the House if they think we will vote | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
on this like they did last week in the safe knowledge that others will | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
vote the other way and it would be carried. I also wonder even more | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
about what it does to the decision we took. The Lords majority of 102 | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
is bound to shrink. We know that the House, we have heard it already, | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
does not have the appetite to send this back given the majority in the | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
Commons which was higher than before. So instead of us being able | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
to go out from this on the high level of saying by 102 we think the | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
Government is wrong, instead of that, you would have either a lower | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
vote or a lower vote an hour later if it ping-pong is and the way I | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
played ping-pong I never even get it back once! But instead of saying | :40:38. | :40:46. | |
that we ended up on the side of those EU nationals here with the | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
majority of 102, we are going to have a lower vote either now or | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
later on. So, my Lords, it will be I am sure with enormous regret, not so | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
much on behalf of the side of the chamber, but on behalf of the 3 | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
million people who are looking for us and to ask for some help it is a | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
regret to me, the Government's position. I don't think it is | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
correct or moral, ethical, I don't even think it is clever | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
negotiations. However we accept the view of the elected house but we | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
won't rest after the night. We will be back urging the Government to | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
allay the fears of people caught in this limbo. I would like to thank | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
those who have contributed to this short debate and once again many of | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
your Lordships' have spoken with great passion. After so many hours | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
of debate I fear that there is very little I can say without repeating | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
myself and travelling over well worn ground so I will be quick and brief. | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
I would start by reiterating once again that the Government's position | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
on this issue is very clear. We do want to secure the status of the UK | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
just so long as we can do so while guaranteeing the position of UK | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
citizens to whom we have a responsibility across the European | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
Union. We cannot and we should not seek to do one without the other. | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
All 4 million people matter. As the assurances given to EU nationals | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
here today, let me repeat what I said previously in debates. Nothing | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
changes in terms of their status until we have left the EU. Nothing | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
can change without the approval of Parliament and the Government will | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
continue to respect its obligations under the ECA chart. This is held by | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
the Government and now by the other place and I would like to remind | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
your Lordships' of the European partners are saying. Many of them | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
have made it clear that they too want a speedy agreement but once we | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
have studied the negotiations. Indeed the bullish premise has said | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
of course these guarantees a group Polish Prime Minister said these | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
would need to be reciprocal. Also British citizens living in other | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
states of European Union would have. We agreement as soon as possible and | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
I believe we are in a good position to do just that. Just last Friday, | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
the lead negotiator for the European Parliament told the BBC that the | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
issue of EU citizens' rights post Brexit should be addressed and I | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
quote before we talk about anything else. And on the matters raised by | :43:26. | :43:32. | |
Lord Davies and Lord Campbell savours I would highlight the words | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
of my honourable friend the Secretary of State who said earlier | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
this afternoon and the other place that the Government would aim to get | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
all member states, the commission and the council in an exchange of | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
letters to explain what they read the right of EU citizens are and | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
will be once the E in the UK has left the EU, once an agreement has | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
been reached in negotiations. The process of ratification, this is a | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
matter for negotiation but it is the Government's intention to have this | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
agreement concluded by the end of the two years. Our commitment to | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
seeking an agreement is clear but the Government will not be able to | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
set about securing the strip Sepracor guarantee until we have | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
passed the Bill and trickled article 30. So I would urge your Lordships' | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
to let this Bill go through unamended and not to prolong the | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
passing of this Bill is lead Prime Minister can indeed trigger article | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
that the ANSI B certainty we all want to offer both European and UK | :44:27. | :44:35. | |
citizens. -- uncertainty. I thank the noble lord to have taken part in | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
this debate. I pay tribute to the noble lord Lord Cormack for the | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
principled advocacy he has undertaken on behalf of this issue | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
but I must confess I cannot follow the constitutional argument that he | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
has made that somehow we cannot insist to the elected house or in | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
deed that other noble lord 's have made. I could understand that if | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
this has never did insist, I could understand if the noble lord Lord | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
Cormack never voted to insist against the will of the elected | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
house, but he knows that is not the case so I wonder why on this issue | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
of such vital importance to so many people we should not. | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
Perhaps I can answer him. We do agree on the fundamentals of the | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
issue that this is a constitutional matter and what is the point of | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
prolonging a time sensitive Bill on which the fortunes of so many do | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
ultimately depend, merely to have the satisfaction of being soundly | :45:42. | :45:49. | |
beaten in the lobbies? Whether we are soundly beaten in the lobby is a | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
matter for noble Lords in this House, it is not a matter for Lord | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
Cormack. I seek to put my argument and I hope to convince people. | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
Nonetheless, as I have said, I pay tribute to the advocacy he has given | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
so far and to all the noble Lords who have made this issue a crucial | :46:07. | :46:15. | |
one. I am sorry that the government continues to refuse to do the right | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
sings, my Lords, and I am sorry that they have hailed to make any | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
concessions or indeed to answer any of the questions that we will put to | :46:24. | :46:31. | |
them at committee stage. -- that were put to them at committee stage. | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
I am particularly sorry that they intend to allow fear and uncertainty | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
of millions of EU and UK citizens to continue. But, my noble Lords, the | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
Minister to be fair to him has been given an impossible job, defending | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
the indefensible and I respect the skill with which he does it but what | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
I cannot respect is the seven current cabinet ministers who backed | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
the vote league campaign which made an unequivocal unilateral commitment | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
to EU citizens during the referendum campaign, a commitment that has been | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
betrayed and I hope the noble Lords in this House who supported that | :47:12. | :47:19. | |
campaign and were involved in vote Leave will think about that | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
commitment without caveats and conditions. That is the position of | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
the government. What I don't understand is the position taken by | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
the Labour front bench in the House today. Though I recognise that it | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
would be as the world rings too many Labour members as it is to me, I | :47:39. | :47:45. | |
would say to that noble lady that if you want to get the ball back across | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
the net it is very important not to drop the bat before you get there | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
and the way in which things are decided in this House, the Labour | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
Party has a key role and if it was prepared to stand behind this then | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
obviously there would be much more chance of success. Last Tuesday the | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
leader of the Labour peers in this House made the great play of | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
attacking the Liberal Democrats as indeed the noble lady has done and | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
she asked how we could oppose the ill given how extraordinary | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
important the amendment on citizens rights was. I voted that the Bill | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
should not pass because I firmly believe that we should not begin | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
withdrawal negotiations until there is a mechanism for the people to | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
have a final say on the outcome of those negotiations but I can say | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
that there were two things in my mind when I went through the | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
division lobby. The first thing was that the government was making it | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
crystal clear, even at that stage, that they would concede nothing in | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
regard to the amendments and the second thing I had in my mind was | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
that the noble lady, Ladysmith of Basildon, had already indicated that | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
if the Bill was returned to this House then she would concede | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
everything, that she would not... He is absolutely wrong on that. If he | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
is going to quote me, he should do so correctly. What I have always | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
said is in this House we respect the privacy of the other place. We also | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
said no extended ping-pong but we also have said we would listen to | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
what the Commons had to say. If he believes by voting for this | :49:41. | :49:42. | |
amendment to night that it will change the mind of the other place, | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
he can go ahead but do not give false hope to people in this House | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
to make a point and the other side to think again. You got us into this | :49:50. | :49:56. | |
mess, no use in you people opposite jeering me. The noble lady's | :49:57. | :50:04. | |
argument makes no sense at all, she has quoted in the many, many | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
divisions insisting on amendments. Insisting on amendments when she | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
knew they had no chance of success. It is true. So, my Lords, it turns | :50:18. | :50:26. | |
out that those amendments were apparently, the many amendments she | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
has voted for in the past to insist to the Commons when they did not | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
give in were not going to give in, were more important than this | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
amendment. I am sorry about that and I am the Wills Byatt but I hope the | :50:40. | :50:46. | |
noble Lords -- and I am the Wills Byatt. But I hope the noble Lords | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
will pay attention to their conscience rather than their party | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
whip and join us in the division lobby and in view of the portals of | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
this issue to millions of EU and UK citizens, I would like to test the | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
opinion of the House. -- in view of the importance of this issue. The | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
question is that A1 be agreed to. As many of that opinion will say | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
content. The contrary not content. Clearly bar. | :51:14. | :54:13. | |
The question is that amendment tend to work -- A1 be agreed to. As many | :54:14. | :54:23. | |
that opinion will say content. The contrary not content. The contents | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
will go to the right by the throne, the not contents to the left by the | :54:30. | :54:31. | |
bar. The question is that amendment A1 be | :54:32. | :59:56. | |
agreed to. They have voted, content 135, not | :59:57. | :05:27. | |
content 's 274. So will they not content 's habit. -- the not | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
contents have it. The question is now that motion A be agreed to. As | :05:36. | :05:43. | |
many of that opinion will say content, the country but content, | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
the contents have it. Bush be, Lord Bridges. I beg to move motion B that | :05:49. | :05:56. | |
this House does not insist on its amendment two to which the House | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
disagreed. My Lords, last week I set out the three core principles | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
governing the UK approach to living the European Union. Namely that the | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
Government is determined to honour the result of the referendum, that | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
everything we do will be determined by our national interest and that | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
Parliamentary sovereignty is key. This that principle was reflected in | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
the Government commitment to give parliament a vote on the final | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
agreement. This House believes that this commitment to be enshrined in | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
legislation and your Lordships' also sought to go further by giving | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
Parliament the power to say whether or not the Prime Minister can | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
terminate negotiations with the European Union. The issue of | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
Parliamentary approval had been debated by the other place before | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
the Bill came to this House. It disagreed with amending the Bill | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
then and having considered this specific amendment it has no | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
disagreed again by a majority of 45. So, my Lords, in essence and to keep | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
it very short, the Government position has not changed. This | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
amendment is unnecessary, it would create untold uncertainty and it | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
would undermine our negotiating position. This is why the other | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
place consider... This is why the other place considered this issue | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
again, let me finish this and then he will be able to speak I am sure | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
once I have sat down, rejected this amendment and therefore I urge the | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
House not to suspend it on this amendment and I beg to move. I will | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
take... I will take one intervention. I'm grateful for | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
taking an intervention. I am genuinely puzzled. If it is the case | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
that John Major could seek Parliamentary approval for the | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
Maastricht Bill twice without weakening his bargaining position, | :07:52. | :07:53. | |
how is it that this government cannot allow Parliament to have a | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
say once without weakening various? I genuinely puzzled by his position. | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
He went on national television saying that he would obey the | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
decision of the British people and now he is trying to get away from | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
those comments. That is what I think will baffle many people. We have | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
made it very clear about the Government position. When an | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
agreement has been reached we will give this House and the other place | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
the chance to vote on that but that is the Government's position but I | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
urge your Lordships' not to insist on this amendment and I beg to move. | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
The question is that motion B be agreed to, amendment B1. I beg to | :08:32. | :08:41. | |
move amendment B as an amendment to motion B. Leave out from house to | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
amend and insert, do insist on its amendment. The Secretary of State | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
for Exiting the EU David Davis told the Andrew Marr show yesterday that | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
he was determined to make sure Britain does not fall off a cliff | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
edge, without an agreement in other words. Meanwhile Foreign Secretary | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
Boris Johnson told the rival pastern on Sunday that it would be perfectly | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
OK if we weren't able to get an agreement. While the last in the | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
trio trade Secretary Liam Fox told Sky News that not having a deal | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
would be bad, not just with the EU but for Europe as a whole and I | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
agree with Liam Fox. So the three Mary Brexiteer is seen to be rather | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
at odds about the prospects. -- merry. Another thinks it would be | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
bad another thinks it would be bad, OK, another says it wouldn't happen. | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
Given that Cabinet is all over the place it is perfectly self-evident | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
that Parliament needs to stay in the driving seat throughout the process | :09:49. | :09:55. | |
to prevent a disorderly and catastrophic plunge over the cliff | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
edge. The Liberal Democrats would add is with the people having the | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
last word. We have been reminded by the press of the Treasury view that | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
an extreme Brexit, crashing out of the EU without a trade deal and | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
relying only on WTO rules, would cause a major economic shock and the | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
option with the most negative long-term impact on the economy. And | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee chaired by Conservative MP | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
Kristian Blunt has just now warned of uncertainty and shock of eight | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
hard Brexit including confusion for EU and British citizens, the sudden | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
return of a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic as | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
well as a major hit to the economy. My Lords, government assurances of a | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
vote on a final deal are not enough. Firstly it is Executive arrogance | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
and presumption of the most preposterous kind for the Government | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
to insist that MPs would have to choose only between the deal | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
brokered by the Prime Minister and crashing out of the EU on the WTO | :11:06. | :11:13. | |
terms in a hard Brexit. Secondly Tory government assurances do not | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
have a good track record. There are broken promises include manifesto | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
commitments on safeguarding the UK's position in the single market, I'm | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
not raising National Insurance contributions and on lifting the 15 | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
year cap on votes for Brits abroad, the very Brits they claim to be | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
looking after incidentally. This is in addition to unfulfilled | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
assurances in respect of the dubs amendment on refugee children and | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
pledges on the full implementation of Ledson. At Report Stage the noble | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
lord Bridges said that of course we will honour our promise. But that is | :11:54. | :12:03. | |
five broken promises already and an assurance now and Parliamentary | :12:04. | :12:05. | |
sovereignty may well be destined to go just the same way. Given that the | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
track record on the issue of Parliamentary sovereignty itself | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
since last June has involved resistance all the way from this | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
government on any restraint on Executive power. So a commitment on | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
a vote is wide enough in scope to be meaningful in the event of no deal | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
must be written into this Bill. The Government has given no good reason | :12:32. | :12:40. | |
way that should not be so. The noble lord Lord Heseltine who sadly I | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
think is not in his place tonight... LAUGHTER | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
. He wrote yesterday about how members of the House of Lords were | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
called upon to issue -- vote in an issue of principle, the supremacy of | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
Parliament in approving or rejecting the outcome of his Brexit | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
negotiations. He said, some say the involvement of Parliament will | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
awaken the Prime Minister's hand. I reject this argument as mere | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
blackmail. -- we can. Much of it peddled by extreme Brexiteers, some | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
of whom he added anchor for the hardest Brexit of all without a deal | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
of any kind with our EU partners. So he rejected the cheap jibes uttered | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
by the Brexiteer fanatics, some of them he regretted to save sitting on | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
the Government front bench. My Lords, the Noble Baroness Ladysmith | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
from Basildon last week set the tone for staying the course. She said we | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
passed those amendment but as some kind of vanity exercise or just to | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
make a point, we are not a debating society where we have our debate and | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
then shrugged off home to or to the pub because we have made our point | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
and have no thought about what happens next. She issued a rallying | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
cry that responsibility is not just about winning but also taking | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
responsibility for our actions. Since she was, could, never much | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
committed to these two mentalist. The group very much committed. I | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
hope that that commitment will be made evident from the Labour benches | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
tonight or at least from many of them. Because it is facilitating | :14:26. | :14:33. | |
what is becoming clear is the real agenda of mini if not all of this | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
Tory government which is to pursue Brexit at any cost, to go over that | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
cliff in what they apparently believe will be a winning Tory Party | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
formula for a 2020 election. We have delivered Brexit, maybe, but at what | :14:50. | :14:58. | |
terrible cost? My Lords, for us as well as the noble lord Lord | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
Heseltine last week, for the Liberal Democrats this is a matter of | :15:03. | :15:11. | |
principle and conscience. Not the Government but Parliament must be in | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
charge for the good of the country, so my Lords, I beg to move. | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
The original question was that the motion be agreed to since when | :15:21. | :15:32. | |
amendment B1 has been included. The question therefore is that amendment | :15:33. | :15:41. | |
B1 be agreed to. I've moved the amendment last week, which was | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
approved by your lordship's House. I very much regret that the House of | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
Commons has not taken the advice of this House, indeed the government | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
has made no effort to move in the direction of the use of this House. | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
My Lords, we won the vote last week because we won the argument. That's | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
why the amendment was carried by the majority of 98 with the largest | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
number of noble Lords noted, so I understand, in any vote since 1831. | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
But it is now time for this House to give way to the House of Commons on | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
this matter. Earlier this evening, the government had a majority of 45 | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
in the Commons. There is no reason whatsoever to think that if this | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
House were to stand its ground that the House of Commons would changes | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
view later this evening. For the Liberal Democrats I have to say to | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
the noble lady, for the Liberal Democrats to press this matter is in | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
Parliamentary terms, I say nothing about any other consideration, but | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
in parliamentary terms it is a completely pointless gesture and I | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
am for my part, cannot support it. I also bear in mind that the Secretary | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
of State this afternoon gave a very clear assurance that any agreement | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
will be put to both houses for their approval. I would prefer that to be | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
in the Bill but we do have an assurance. We have no assurance on | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
Parliamentary approval if the Prime Minister decides that it would be | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
better to leave the EU with no deal and I regret that at by take some | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
comfort from the point that was made last week by a number of noble Lords | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
who were supporting the government that Parliament has ample means of | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
asserting its sovereignty in those circumcised is. My Lords, I have two | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
other brief points. The first is that this Bill has demonstrated the | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
value of Parliamentary sovereignty at this stage of notifying our | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
intention to withdraw from the EU and my Lords, it is only because of | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
the determination of my client, Mrs Jean Miller and the independence of | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
the divisional Court and the Supreme Court that we have this Bill at all | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
-- Mrs Gina Miller. I hope the governors | :18:32. | :18:48. | |
will show more question on the issue of Parliamentary sovereignty down on | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
this notification stage. My Lords, the other point I want to make is | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
that I bought my part where very much in mind that this is only the | :18:57. | :19:04. | |
beginning of the process for withdrawal from the EU, point which | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
the noble Lord and Minister has repeatedly emphasised. A much more | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
complex Bill is going to be brought forward in the next session to | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
repeal the 1972 European communities act and to maintain the rights and | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
duties which owe their origin to EU law. The government is, I think, on | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
notice that this House will be scrutinising that Bill with especial | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
care to ensure that Parliamentary sovereignty and the rule of law and | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
other constitutional principles are upheld. Your lordship' Constitution | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
committee, of which I am a member, has produced under the excellent | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Lang, an introduction to some of the | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
issues which are going to arise. So, this is just the start of the | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
debate. This House has made known its use on the importance of | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
Parliamentary sovereignty. I very much look forward to continuing the | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
debate with the noble Lord, the minister, but not on this Bill. For | :20:13. | :20:21. | |
the best part of 35 years ago I had a hand in trying to amend what John | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
Carpenter described as the longest suicide note in history. I played a | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
part in trying to amend what I now think we should call the shortest | :20:32. | :20:40. | |
suicide note in history. But on the question of how Parliament fits into | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
this, Parliament will be there in two years' time and I think that | :20:44. | :20:51. | |
there will be plenty of opportunity then, I would have preferred it | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
today, but opportunity then for Parliament to have a decisive stage, | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
whatever the small print says, both in oration to different scenarios -- | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
to have a decisive say, whatever the small print says, in relation to | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
different scenarios, whatever the outcome may be, which I don't think | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
will be a happy occasion. I want to discuss a fundamental issue. I think | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
we are absolutely justified on this occasion for this amendment is not | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
to give way to the House of Commons because the House of Commons has | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
now, in effect, abandoned the principle of Parliamentary democracy | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
and has taken the view that the referendum verdict is sacrosanct and | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
cannot be challenged and that is quite clear what the opinion of the | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
government is. Now, what does that mean? It means that MPs are | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
delegates and not representatives. It means that there is no point in | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
Parliamentary government considering the argument and debate, considering | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
the evidence and the argument. They have two abate the will of the | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
people. That is now the principal. Now, -- they have two abate a will | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
of the people. Now, I was not an admirer of Margaret Thatcher but she | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
was not someone who said to the electorate, these are my principles | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
and if you don't like them, I will change them. That is, in effect, | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
what those who supported the remainder cause and who have felt -- | :22:23. | :22:33. | |
the Remain cause and those he felt that Brexit would be disastrous for | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
this country have now accepted it. It is a dangerous step toward the | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
doctrine that the people's will must always prevail. My Lords, this is | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
the doctrine which has always been favoured by Hitler, by Mussolini, by | :22:47. | :22:58. | |
Josef Stalin, by Erdogan at this present time. It is a denial of | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
democracy that we have supported to great effect in this country. Now we | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
are abandoning it. We are the guardians of Parliamentary democracy | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
and we are right in this, we are the Democrats and we are right to | :23:14. | :23:23. | |
support the Democratic cause. I ask a question of noble Lords who may be | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
thinking of voting against the Commons and in favour of previous | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
amendment and the question is this, how do they justify extolling the | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
supremacy of Parliament, the House of Commons and this House and want | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
in Parliament to have the last word on the terms of our leaving the EU | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
went for the last 43 years they have supported our EU membership and | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
still do so? I ask my Lords because perhaps the main achievement of the | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
European Union is precisely that national parliaments have been | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
emasculated and that much of their former power has been transferred to | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
the institutions of the European Union. The unelected bureaucrats in | :24:03. | :24:11. | |
the commission have the monopoly to impose EU laws and secret which are | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
then negotiated in secret by more bureaucrats in the committee of | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
permanent representatives and other undecided in the Council of | :24:22. | :24:23. | |
ministers from national governments, not parliaments. Our government has | :24:24. | :24:33. | |
some 14% of the votes. EU law now a large proportion of our law is then | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
enforced by the commission and the so-called Court of Justice in | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
Luxembourg. The point is that our national parliament, which remain | :24:41. | :24:50. | |
supporters have been talking about in this anti-democratic failure is | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
excluded from this whole process. We have EU committees in both houses of | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
parliament which scrutinise and very little of the legislation which is | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
imposed on us by Brussels, they can't change any of it and never | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
have. Nor can House of Commons or your Lordships House change any of | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
it, nor have we ever. Yet, my Lords, it is this system which those who | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
have tabled this new amendment in truth wish to perpetuate with their | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
new-found faith in Parliamentary democracy. My Lords, the people, | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
with whom ultimate sovereignty resides, voted to leave that system. | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
The House of Commons has this evening again agreed with the | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
government that the Bill should become law as originally drafted. I | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
would of course be amused to hear the noble Remainers answer but I | :25:43. | :25:55. | |
trust this is the end of the matter. A response to Lord Pannick who | :25:56. | :26:04. | |
always speaks with clarity and grace. If the Prime Minister does | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
not get an agreement, whatever she does, surely she will bring it to | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
Parliament but the problem is this, if I understand it right, triggering | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
Article 50 is an irreversible act. Two years after triggering Article | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
50 the UK will be be used. It will do so with or without a deal but | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
either way it will leave. Because Article 50 paragraph three makes | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
clear that treaties will cease to apply two years after negotiation | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
has been made. It is possible that the EU 27 might unanimously agreed | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
to extend the negotiation period beyond the two years but this cannot | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
taken for granted, nor should it be assumed that it will offer anything | :26:55. | :26:56. | |
but a brief extension. The amendment for me shows no awareness and the | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
reality is actually presented by Article 50 timescale, so this | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
amendment overlooks the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
Bill is about triggering Article 50 and the formal divorce agreement, | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
neither this Bill nor Article 50 are without negotiating a new... As far | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
as I am concerned, once we trigger it, we leave with an agreement or | :27:23. | :27:30. | |
without, so why put it in section four in the amendment? Why don't we | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
just follow what the House of Commons has just done? Article 50 of | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
the Lisbon Treaty says that, and I quote, "The council needs to obtain | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
the European Parliament's consent, voting by simple majority with the | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
votes cast before it can conclude the withdrawal agreement." This | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
means that all amendments of the European Parliament, including the | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
UK members, have the legal right to vote on any final agreement or | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
indeed lack of it last members of the British Parliament have no such | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
legal right because the government refuses to put such a right on the | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
face of the Bill. I think really that does try to answer his point | :28:19. | :28:28. | |
that supporting the EU Parliament, having legal rights on the | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
withdrawal agreement that our own elected members of parliament will | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
not have, seems to me, at least, to be completely inconsistent with why | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
many people voted for Brexit. They voted for Brexit to have better | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
control of our own laws and by refusing to put this on the face of | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
the Bill, the government is in effect making our legal rights less | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
than those of the European Parliament. I think that is a very | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
strong argument on this point that needs to be aired and I hope Lord | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
Pearson accept is that that is indeed the legal position. I should | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
like to answer Lord Pearson as well. I have not supported the youth for | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
45 years but even I think that this amendment has validity -- I have not | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
supported the EU for 45 years. I did not expect it to be, a prime | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
ministers with a very small mandate and a small coterie of people making | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
these decisions. I think people imagined they were voting that our | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
parliament would have some sort of supremacy. I have listened very | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
carefully to the government on this and I have found that their | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
arguments are not argument at all, they are actually comments and | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
specious comments at that. This is not a time sensitive issue. We are | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
not actually triggering Article 50 until much later in the month. It is | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
not true that a promise is as good as having something on the face of | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
the Bill. Quite honestly, I think it is time that we accepted this is a | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
mistake and we really ought to support the amendment. I will be | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
voting for it. I regret that it won't pass, though. | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
I want to put a noble lord question to Mr before the speech. If he could | :30:17. | :30:27. | |
just answer a simple question, I think his colleague in the other | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
place has answered the question as to what happens if there is a deal | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
on the Article 50 withdrawal agreement, the matter will be | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
brought to the two houses for approval. I think he has also | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
answered the question as to what happens if there is a new | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
partnership agreement, the agreement will be brought to both houses for | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
their approval. So far so good. Now, could the noble lord just say, what | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
happens if the Prime Minister decides that no deal is better than | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
a bad deal? What happens then? Answer, please. My Lords, I was | :31:06. | :31:15. | |
never someone to enjoy saying I told you so, because I rather expect my | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
advice to be heeded. And never was this more the case done with the | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
highest ever votes in the Lords last week. The 634 peers voting of which | :31:26. | :31:36. | |
366 advised that the promised vote on the outcome of the negotiations | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
should be inscribed in law. That would make it very clear to the | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
Government but also to the EU commission and the Council as well | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
as to the European Parliament that this Parliament is a player in the | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
process of how we extract ourselves from the EU. As my noble friend | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
Baroness Symons has said, without our change the European Parliament | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
and indeed with its UK members in it, as the right in law to consent | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
to the deal but this Parliament has no such guaranteed right. Our | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
amendment last week gave legal certainty to the promised vote and | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
the legislative authority for the withdrawal agreement. Something with | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
the Government may well have to do another way if not in this Bill. As | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
there is currently no legislative way of authorising the withdrawal | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
deal ahead of a treaty. My Lords, there are challenges ahead, | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
withdrawal is not simply about the divorce or even just about the | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
potential shape of new trade deals with the EU 27, it will be about | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
forging a new partnership are concordat which will cover so much | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
more than trade vital though that is. We will need a vision of how we | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
should work together after exit, not just on the hard subjects such as | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
security and terrorism but on the whole slate of our approach to the | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
economy. We will need to negotiate with the EU in a way that shows our | :33:11. | :33:18. | |
openness and our willingness to retain our strong bonds because that | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
will influence our future relationships with the EU as a block | :33:22. | :33:29. | |
and the 27 members individually. It is with this reason that it is | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
important to recognise Parliament's vote in the process. Because we will | :33:34. | :33:41. | |
be a part of those negotiations with the EU and with the 27 countries. | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
All of our contracts and they in business, trade unions and consumers | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
will be working across Europe's to help us get the best deal for this | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
country. But Parliament should be a part of that. In so far as we heed | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
the polls, they also indicate 2-1 in favour of Parliament having a | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
meaningful vote at the end of negotiations. And this has spoke | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
very clearly last week. So I deeply regret that the Government and the | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
Commons did not hear our plea. But as the noble lord Lord Pannick says, | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
their view will not change and we will not make a worthless gesture. | :34:28. | :34:36. | |
What I believe the noble lady Lady Longford is now tweeting is shabby | :34:37. | :34:45. | |
of us. That is it, that we have heard regrettably that the Commons | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
did not hear the overwhelming vote in this House. But what they will | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
say is that we will hold the Government to its promise of a vote | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
before that in the European Parliament and we will work to | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
devise a parliamentary route of establishing it more firmly, not | :35:01. | :35:08. | |
least because having the support of Parliament during negotiations would | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
be a source of strength rather than of weakness. The Government has made | :35:12. | :35:18. | |
the wrong call on this amendment, but we will seek to rectify that | :35:19. | :35:26. | |
another way. My Lords, we have spent considerable time debating this | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
issue at Committee and report and again today and I fear that once | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
again there is little I can really add to this debate, especially as I | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
am very much aware that my last attempt to convince the House of the | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
merits of my case not result in what I can call this excess, as the noble | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
lord Pannick said it is the largest vote on this House on record with a | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
turnover of 634 members, the fact that 366 of your Lordships' did not | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
accept my arguments was, as I hope, as they put in Sicily, nothing | :36:01. | :36:07. | |
personal, just business. But my right honourable friend the | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
Secretary of State did a bit better is happening and the other place | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
rejected this amendment by a majority of 45. And let me briefly | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
remind your Lordships' of the Government's case. First, as I had | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
said, this is a simple and straightforward Bill designed to | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
implement the referendum result and respect the Supreme Court's | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
judgment. It is the culmination of a long democratic process. A process | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
started by the people at the last election endorsed by this House in | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
an act of Parliament and then voted for by the people at the referendum | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
itself. And Parliament will continue to play its part through scrutiny of | :36:47. | :36:53. | |
and passing future legislation. Through questions and debate and | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
most important of all, a vote on the final agreement. So despite putting | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
noble lord said we are not abandoning Parliamentary | :37:04. | :37:04. | |
sovereignty, our commitment to a vote in both houses, which we fully | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
expect and intend to take place before the European Parliament votes | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
on any deal, is an absolute consistent and it will be honoured. | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
-- commitment. Furthermore as my right honourable friend the | :37:22. | :37:23. | |
Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union said this afternoon | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
in the other place, and I could, of course Parliament can, if it wishes, | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
have a vote and a debate on any issue. But as a matter for | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
Parliament and it is not for a minister to try and constrain it. | :37:36. | :37:42. | |
And so, as I have said on a number of occasions now, subclauses 1-3 are | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
unnecessary, but as I said before, this amendment goes further. It | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
seeks to make it impossible for the Prime Minister to walk away without | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
a vote in parliament. Article 50 does not give the European | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
Parliament that power. The European Commission would not have to go to | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
the European Parliament if they wanted to walk away from the | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
negotiations. It is incorrect to say that the amendment would simply put | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
on the face of the spilled the same power of that given to the European | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
Parliament. And also as I argued before it is unclear what the | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
effects of this would be in any case. If Parliament would devote | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
against the Prime Minister walking away, is she to accept the deal on | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
offer goes like this you meant to negotiate a better one or is she too | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
tried to revoke the UK public but as withdraw? We don't know and as I | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
have said, such vagueness for something so critical is | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
unacceptable. My Lords, the people voted to leave the EU in a | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
referendum granted to them by this Parliament. We will respect the | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
result. We are confident that the UK and the EU can indeed reach a | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
positive deal on our future partnership, as this would read the | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
mutual benefit of both this country and the European Union. And we will | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
approach the negotiations in that spread. So as the noble lord point, | :39:00. | :39:07. | |
it is very hard to see what vote would be there was no deal at all, | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
in the absence of agreement I have no doubt they would be further | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
statements to the south but we are leaving the European Union. Either | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
through the deal we have agreed without a deal. And so what we now | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
need to consider is whether the other place should be asked to | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
consider this issue yet again given they have considered and decided | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
against amendments twice seek to put on the face of the Bill a vote on | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
the final agreement. Let me end by saying this. This Bill is to trigger | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
the process of our leaving and fulfil the Supreme Court's | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
requirements. As I have said many times before, tonight we must just | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
might just make it to the legislative base camp in terms of | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
parliamentary scrutiny and debate. There is a lot more to come. My | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
Lords, the other place is clearly satisfied with this approach and | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
that this Bill does not merit amendment. I would therefore add key | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
noble lord is to be mindful of that and to pass this Bill amended. The | :40:05. | :40:14. | |
noble lord the Minister attempts to bamboozle us and produce some of the | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
same red herrings that I mentioned last week. The key point is that if | :40:22. | :40:29. | |
he pledges that the Government will honour the commitment and assurance | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
to a parliamentary vote, why not put it in the legislation? No good | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
reason has been produced why that should not be enshrined in statute. | :40:39. | :40:46. | |
And the more he doffed protest too much, more he generates concern, | :40:47. | :40:57. | |
that that commitment to honour a parliamentary vote may be somewhat | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
fragile. If there are indeed ample means for Parliament to assert its | :41:03. | :41:09. | |
control, there is no problem then in writing them into the Bill. It is an | :41:10. | :41:17. | |
issue that is completely fundamental, a fundamental | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
principle. This is the most important decision for this country | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
in over 70 years. Noble lord lordly Chronicle referred to this Bill is | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
the shortest suicide in history. Didn't need to be that if the | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
Government had given end the indication of issuing a sensible | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
bracelet. But unfortunately it gives every indication of hurtling towards | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
an extreme, brittle Brexit. -- sensible Brexit. That makes many | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
people inside and outside this building very nervous. Lady Hayter | :41:52. | :42:02. | |
said that from the opposition front bench she wanted to show that this | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
Parliament is a player, wanted recognition of Parliament's role. | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
The best way to do that is to follow the advice of my noble friend Lord | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
Taverne that we should not abdicate parliamentary responsibility. There | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
is a huge bonus on us to continue to maintain -- bonus to maintain that | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
principle in the face of considerable lustre and not enough | :42:29. | :42:37. | |
actual legislative commitment. -- bluster. I therefore believe that it | :42:38. | :42:45. | |
is justified to press this amendment. I would ask the House to | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
agree to amendment B1 and I wish to test the opinion of the House. The | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
question is that amendment B1 be agreed to. As many of that opinion | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
will say content. The contrary not content. Clear the | :43:05. | :43:05. |