16/06/2011 Newsnight

There $25 million on his head. Zairzairzair is the new Al-Qaeda

leader. Tonight, exclusively we hear from his sister, who says he's

not the savage men he is portrayed to be. He knows not that style at

all, he's not that style at all, even now.

Also tonight, Greece on the brink, the epicentre of a Euro-crisis how

close are they to defaulting on their ever-increasing debt.

Greek people have made many sacrifice, they have a limit, that

beneath this limit we can't live. Here in the studio, the Greer

perspective on the crisis, should they ditch the euro.

Is the heat going out of the battle on climate change, our science

editor is here. Some scientists think a less active sun may buy the

time we need to engineer our way to a cooler planet. Collier and

Campbell celebrating 50 years of dazzling design.

Al-Qaeda, now we have a face on the monster. The man to be the

strategic brains behind Al-Qaeda, Ayman Al-Zawahiri has been given

command according to jal jas year and, Al-Jazeera, he trained as a

doctor and surgeon, and thought to be in hiding along the border

between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Middle East experts are divideds

too whether he has the ability to unite the different faction that is

make up Al-Qaeda. We have had exclusive access to Al-Zawahiri's

sister. For years the chief idealist and

tactition of Al-Qaeda, righthand man of Osama Bin Laden, and the

operational brains behind the deadliest attacks. Ayman Al-

Zawahiri is now confirmed as its commander.

I believe, from my own experience is Al-Zawahiri is more extreme than

Bin Laden. The man so skilled at getting

people blown up used to be a doctor in Cairo. He opened a clinic, a

private clinic and because he's very nice and he's supports the

poor people, a lot of poor people and poor families gathered in his

clinic. They started to talk about how far the Muslim people are

depressed and suppressed in this country. In 1981, after the

assassination of President El-Sadat, hundreds of Islamist suspect,

including Ayman Al-Zawahiri were arrested. We believe in our

religion, in m the practice and we tried our best to establish this

Islamic state and Islamic society. He was cleared of plotting El-

Sadat's assassination, but jailed for holding arms and tortured.

state security used to take people, just to show them, Ayman Al-

Zawahiri, in the prison, they used to hang him and beat him and expose

him to everything that can give him pain, using electricity, water,

whatever. On the surface you would not expect Al-Zawahiri to become a

radical. Certainly not committed to violence. He came from the upper-

classs of Egyptian society. We want to speak to the whole world. What

really radicalised him was the court experience, you can see from

the court experience that he's becoming a leader of men. Then the

vicious treatment that was methed out to him by the large - meted out

to him by the large Egyptian Security Service who is would

torture him in his cell. After his release, Ayman Al-

Zawahiri moved to Afghanistan where the mujahideen were fighting the

Soviet occupation. Years later, his Egyptian-Islamic Jihad group,

joined forces with Al-Qaeda. He lacked Bin Laden's charisma, but

his anti-western vision was wider, and his organisational skills

greater. Al-Zawahiri he is one of the few people who deal with

organisation as a weapon, not just a structure. From my own experience

I met with just a few people, they understand the difference between

organisation as a structure or organisation as a lethal weapon.

Many intelligence sources believe Ayman Al-Zawahiri was the main

tactical planner of the 9/11 attacks.

But now, ten years into America's war on terror, the organisation

he's taking over is a different, less centralised one, autonomous

branches of Al-Qaeda have sprung up in Iraq, North Africa and Yemen.

He is the best known figure in Yemen now appears to have more

influence among potential Jihadi, particularly in the best than Ayman

Al-Zawahiri. In many ways Al-Zawahiri is the

wrong man at the wrong time. Because what Al-Qaeda needs right

now is an inspirational leader, who, through his words and charisma can

inspire attacks abroad. They don't need a general at a time when they

don't have an army. They don't need a manager at a time when there is

nothing to manage for Al-Qaeda central, because they do not have

troops that would necessarily be able to orchestrate another 9/11.

So what I anticipate will happen is that there will be a competition,

almost an interfactional war between the affiliate, especially

Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, and the central leadership of Al-

Qaeda in Pakistan. My hunch, at this point is, is Al-Qaeda in the

Arabian Peninsula will be more successful. But others think Ayman

Al-Zawahiri can still command discipline throughout the

organisation. According to man who once knew him

well, he may be planning an operation in North Africa this

autumn, involving the possible execution of French hostages to

embarrass Nicolas Sarkozy. Qaeda's next move, I have very

strong information, it's very solid, without a doubt. The next move is

going to be like, it starts from North Africa. They will use the

AQIM, they will utilise the French hostages. They are already under

their control. The AQIM, they will make sure President Sarkozy he will

never ever make it for the second term as President of France. It's

going to be a very good chance for Al-Zawahiri to express his

authority as a real leader of Al- Qaeda, dealing at the international

stage. Whether or not that's true, it is clear Al-Zawahiri wants to

regain momentum in Al-Qaeda's struggle with the west. But his

ability to do so may be gradually slipping away. Joining me now is

our diplomatic editor Mark Urban. You heard the view there would be

competition in the film. How do you think Al-Zawahiri will be received

among the faithful? There was some time between the death of Osama Bin

Laden and this announcement, a lot of people in the agencies that

follow the counter terrorist scene was saying there was division in

the organisation. It is true to say that Al-Qaeda, in its form that we

know it, is partially its creation. It is the folding in of the

Egyptian Jihad into the organisation that made it what it

is. At this point the thing could explode in a sense, the factional

tensions in it could come to the fore. The main threat to him, I

think, is the so-called Libyan group, three particular Jihadist

leaders who are said to doubt his direction and to be restive. The

truth is, in situation like this, where the organisation is being

pursued, hunted by the Americans in the way it is, pursued in many Arab

countries too, the fact that he has such a long history at the top of

the organisation, knows where individuals are, bank accounts,

means of organising and communication channels did give him

a decided advantage. How will he be viewed and what tactics will be

employed by the western intelligence agencies? There is

undoubtedly this line of analysis that goes, he will try to impress

the organisation with a spectacular, that line could have been applied

to anybody who would have taken over at this jucture in the wake of

the killing of Osama Bin Laden. I think there will be quiet faction

in the agencies, because he has some name recognition, and for

agencies that are looking to defend their budgets and their efforts in

the wake of the killing of Bin Laden, for someone like Al-Zawahiri,

who is a Jihadist heavyweight, to have taken over, is, in that sense,

useful. While his very devisiveness as a character within the militant

underground, is also useful if that tips off some inside struggle or

increasingly disobedient action, if you like, from Jihadist leaders in

the other parts of the Arab world, supposed to owe him loyalty.

Tomorrow the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the French

President, Nicolas Sarkozy, will meet in Berlin to try to find a way

out of the Greek crisis threatening to engulf the euro. A new bailout

is still being negotiated. Tonight n at then, the Government still

seems in danger of unravelling, a cabinet reshuffle is under way with

a vote of confidence to come. We are in the capital witnessing this

vicarious moment. In the morning after the riot there

is still tear gas in the square. The battle signs around St Agnes

Square are all too evident and so is the political tension. Here is a

building covered in graffiti, splattered with missile, fire

damage around the back, the graffiti says "police murderers

German collaborators", the problem is, this is the Greek finance

ministry. This is the place that lost control of Greece's debt, and

is now struggling to put things right. And just on its doorstep, a

story in microcosim of what has gone wrong. These women have been

camped here for 16 days. They are hardly anti-capitalist, they are

lawyers and accountants, who have passed exams to become tax

collectors in the ministry. But there is no money to find them jobs.

It is unpredictable right now. Our future, even our close future is

unpredictable, in three months or six months we don't know what will

happen. We hope, of course, that's the best we can do. The irony is,

Greece needs more tax collectors, its tax revenues have fallen this

year, even after it pledged to increase them. Her message to the

Finance Minister, stark. He has to take some measure, of course, but

he has also to know that the Greek people have made many sacrifices,

and that they have a limit that beneath this limit we can't live.

He has to respect us. Meanwhile, in parliament, the

comings and goings of politicians signalled drama.

Rocked by yesterday's riots, and with his parliamentary majority

evaporating, the Greek Prime Minister, began a reshuffle, and

tried to stiffen his MPs. TRANSLATION: Now is the time when

we cannot shirk our responsibilities. Now is the time

when we must get to work. Now is the time when we must send a

message to our society: now is the time when we must say yes to facing

up to major decisions, here and now, all of us.

International leaders rallied round. The IMF lift add deadline that

would have forced Greece into a debt default as early as next week.

President Sarkozy made this plea. TRANSLATION: I am calling on

everybody to demonstrate their spirit of responsibility, and a

sense of necessary compromise on which the euro is created. We need

to defend our single currency, we need to defend our European

institutions. This is our task, to do everything to preserve the

stability of the eurozone, because without stability, no growth is

possible, and we are all affected and we must take these decisions

now. But the fundamental problem remain,

the new Greek austerity plan, the people are hostile to it, and the

centre right opposition party has rejected it. Today, its economics

chief told me why? It needs to be a new way of thinking, that has three

key elements, measures to restart the economy we suggested seven key

pillars, we made significant suggestions in an aggressive growth

plan. Without measures to restart the economy, we believe the

privatisation will not in themselves produce the result they

need in order to restart the economy. That is one side of the

problem, here is the other, in St Agnes Square, where the protest

camp has survived the street battle, they are holding out for much more

than a reshuffle or coalition Government. They want the IMF to

leave. If we get national Government, is that enough for

people here to just disperse and go back to normal? Absolutely no. The

thing is, and the thing that George Papandreou and the rest of the

people in the system of governance don't seem to realise, this is not

about a single person standing as an MP, people have had enough with

the entire system of Government, this would include the others, the

journalists and the businessmen all supporting them. What today has

been about, essentially, is the politicians trying to regain the

initiative from the protestors, but because the economic pain just will

not go away, neither will this. George Papandreou, a man on the

receiving end of an entire nation's anger and discontent, will have to

endure some more. Paul stayed up for us to be live in

Athens tonight. Any closer Paul to a proper Government or even an

austerity plan. Mr Papandreou's problems started

today when he tried to reshuffle the Government, as I understand it,

various ministers weren't picking up the phone quickly enough. The

problems increased as one member of his party tried then to call a

meeting to unseat him. That speech you saw there was Papandreou seeing

that challenge off. He's now stablising his own party in

parliament, although with a much reduced majority. What will now

happen, he will get through the weekend, appoint a cabinet that

agrees with him, but then the fun begins. The austerity package is

not really acceptable, either to the Greek people, or to the

opposition, or to many of his own MPs. And what this IMF pullback

from the brink has done today is really give everybody time to ask

themselves the question, could they re-think the austerity package.

What the centre right's objection to it is, is it does the cuts, it

does the privatisation, but it has nothing to stimulate growth. What

they are suggesting, which will not be music to the ears of the

European Central Bank, nor to German voters, is tax cuts to

stimulate growth. It is straight out of the right-wing economics

play book, and it makes sense to them. But it is something that Mr

Papandreou has written out of the picture, in his negotiations with

the European Union and the IMF. Tell me, what do you think

President Sarkozy, and indeed the IMF, what is the key thing they are

concentrating on? What's concentrated their minds is what

went on right behind me, that is the Greek parliament, and St Agnes

Square in front of it, yesterday. And the international community are

kind of convinced that the Greeks were prone to rioting and striking

and these were basically left-wing protests, organised in a quite

tokenistic manner. What has happened in the last month, is this

so-called indignant movement, where up to 20 or 30 towns across the

country, they have seen their town squares occupied, not by leftist,

but by people, such as you saw in my report. Ordinary middle-class

and working-class people, who just don't want this. When you see that

depth of anger, that depth of opposition to austerity, and then

you see it break out on to the streets, utterly violently as it

did, with all the international media here, it has changed the mind

of the international community. The IMF just said why are we pushing

Greece towards a default when its own people are prepared to push it

far more vigorously towards the same solution, I would still say we

are nowhere near a solution here that is acceptable to the Greek

people. And the Greek people are, I think, going to push this to a

default scenario, whether the politicians want it or not.

Joining me now is Pryce, the Greek- born former head of the UK's

Government's economic service. Matina Stavis, a former editor of a

Greek newspaper based in London, and Sajjan Gohel, member of the at

this tank for European policies. Are your heads in your hands, where

is the real world in Greece, there has to be an austerity package?

There has to be, but with an end game. If you are a politician

trying to make people take so much main for such a long time, you must

explain to them what exactly it is you are doing, this Government has

failed to do that. These people on the streets aren't stupid, they

know what is going on, will there be a functioning Government to

deliver the austerity package? is a good question, there may not

be. We will see what happens with the vote of confidence, happening

at the beginning of next week, there will be a debate about this,

we will still end up with serious change, where possibly a Government

of National Unity may materialise. That Government of National Unity

will fare no better if that scenario is one that could happen

now, people in the studio saying they don't want that, we want to

push forward to default? I'm not sure they are saying default, the

reprecussions would be horrendous, people would lose their money it

would be terrible. Is Greece governable at the moment? Anything

is governable, you need to be serious, you need to have experts

and to be able to communicate and negotiate, and unfortunately this

particular Government has been failing on these fronts. The Greek

people are perreceiving them as just being the yes - certificate

receiving them as being the question men.

- perceiveing them as being the yes men.

The Greeks know they don't have to deliver the austerity package

because the IMF will bail them out? They hold the thump cards, they

have realised what is at stake is the euro. The whole project might

collapse. It is right, isn't t the Greeks hold the trmp card, the

Germans - trump card, the Germans won't force this? Only in the short

run, they can force the Germans and others to pay up once now, a second

time next year, sooner or later the German tax-payers and others will

revolt, that will put the euro into jeopardy. The euro can live without

Greece, but not without Germany. will be tougher for exports without

countries like Greece and Ireland. There is some kind of Machiavellian

reason for keeping Greece there. the exports of Germany to Greece

are a small proportion of our exports. German exports are booming

going to China and India and the emerging markets. The peripheral

Euro-areas is not a growth area for Germany, that is not the key

problem blem. - problem. It may not be now, but it was a few years ago.

With the creation of the euro, the Greeks, Portuguese and the Irish

have been buying German goods, and they have kept the euro rather low,

without that we will end up with a strong euro that will kill the

locomotive that is Germany right now. Do you think Germany will

eventually give up on Greece? immediately, but if it goes on like

this if the Greeks say they don't like austerity, they want more

growth and to be able to consume more, that cannot be paid by the

Germans and the other northern Europeans. There may be a push by

the politicians to pay now, but not tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.

This is a highly one dimensional view of things, apart from the

weakness or strength of the euro, apart from the matter of exports,

we have to consider the exposure of German banks and other European

banks to Greek and other peripheral debt. Commerce bank has failed to

offload Greek debt it has on the book, that is a serious liquidity

problems, how will the banks deal with that? The German Government is

certainly able to bail out the banks and Germany banks. Another

bailout, you don't like bailing out Greeks or Irish or Portuguese s

that not a moral hazard problem. There is certainly a moral problem,

just as every country bailing out your own banks is one thing,

bailing out somebody else abroad is a different thing. That would be in

any country in the world no different. Vicky Pryce, there is

surely also a problem with simply flight of capital from Greek banks

at the moment, Greeks are removing their money? We have seen that, it

is a rational thing to do. I don't think we will have a solution in

Greece unless there is a bailout of the banks. The Greek banks need to

be recapitalised and the German banks. It needs to be accepted that

there has to be a solution to the whole issue, that will include,

Greece, Ireland, Portugal, that will require loss, and I'm afraid

the Governments will have to step in and make sure the banks remain

safe, otherwise it will be a serious issues everywhere,

including Germany. Isn't there a problem that if there is political

instability in Greece, and that carries on, there is much less

likelihood of Germany taking a softer line, even of President

Sarkozy pushing this softly line? do believe that sooner or later the

Greeks will have to come up with a credible Government to go on, this

Government has been credible to the eyes of the Europeans and the IMF,

let's make that clear. They have not been credible to the eyes of

the Greek population. We should not be fixating on Greece. It has

already been made clear the systemic nature of the problem,

such a systemic problem must have a systemic solution. One solution is

there has to be rescheduling of some sort, a voluntary, orderly

reprofiling. Again and again? and for all, it has to happen with

a number of other countries. What also needs to happen is the IMF

needs to come up with a long-term, sustainable recovery plan, not a

short-term austerity package, the Greeks then will accept what the

Government is doing and it will be governable. A once and for all

restructuring, would you accept that? What do you mean by that,

cutting the Greek debt, that I think is really what is needed. You

have to realise there is a fundamental difference between

Greece and Ireland and Portugal, Ireland has done everything it has

been asked for, there is no revolution, and it is going well

there. Greece is the only country that hasn't. It is different in

each country, we have the same problem, it doesn't matter where it

is originated. One final thought, is anyone actually in charge in

Europe, is that a major problem? That is spot on, actually. What's

happening in Greece and we are talking about Greece being

ungovernable and thrown in a political crisis a mere reflection

of what is happening in Brussels, I would argue it is Miss Merkel's

position that it is she who should step up and provide that

sleedership, because Germany has reaped the benefits of the euro and

been a regional leader. Angela Merkel has to step up to the plate?

She has her failings, but in Greece we had a precise programme a year

ago that has not been fulfilled. They tried but they couldn't get

the administration to implement it, as was said earlier, Government

revenues were supposed to be up, they are down, expenditure is up,

not a down. With such a Government and such a society you can't deal

with them. Just to confirm that, you alluded to it earlier, you

think Germany will just give up on Greece? They will have no choice,

if Greece continues not to keep its promises. Thank you very much.

Now, we think of the sun as a constant sizzling star. But rather

like most teenagers, the sun gets spots from time to time, and those

spots increase the amount of energy its firing at the earth, apparently

we're going through a particularly unspotty stage, which you might

think would be good news for global warming, that in itself brings more

problems and ones that can't be solved, even with Clearasil. What

is the problem at the moment with all these sunspots, what do they

mean? The first thing you need to know, is the sun has active and

quiet phase, this go in an 11-year cycle. It co-relates with the

appearance of sunspots. That is the dark patches we see here. They are

areas of intense magnetk activity, the more sunspots you have, the

more energy radiated towards the earth and the warmer planet we have.

The fewer sunspots the less energy radiated and a cooler planet. Some

scientists have been reporting that the sun is behaving oddly, it is

unexpectedly quiet at the moment. The quiet nature of the sun isn't a

surprise as such, the sun always goes through this minimum in

activities, what is surprising is how quiet it is. It has been

extremely quiet, at its quietest for 100 years now. The he can peck

station is, looking at the current data, is it will probably continue

to get quieter. The sunspot number will drop and drop. How far it

drops that's still open to debate. This has happened before, most

memorably in the 17th century, when we saw frost fairs on the River

Thames, rivers normally frost-free frozen over. Scientists are saying

that is the most we can expect, much cooler regions of the planet.

The idea that we are entering a global Ice Age is quite far wide of

the mark. But can we think of all of this now, this cooling

cancelling some of the global warming? Not really. Because we

still have the issue of rising greenhouse gas, and if we look at

some of the predictions and modelling into the future, the

suggestion is we could see our planet warm by the end of the

century to anything between 1.5-4.5 degrees. Whatever the sun does

isn't going to be enough to counter that and save from us global

warming. We do need to worry about climate

change, even if the sun was going to compensate over periods of

perhaps decades, then of course what will happen is eventually the

sun will turn round, starting to more active, and then we would be

in a situation with a more active sun and hygiene house gas, that

would be even worse. Some scientists are worried about the

worse, they say we don't have time to persuade people to use energy

more efficiently, or reduce emissions, and what we need to do

now is geoengineer our way out of this. What is geoengineeringing?

This is large scale, sometimes whacky science fiction-sounding

project, very ambitious. We will have a look at the top three.

Number three we have the idea of shielding the earth which firing

giant mirrors into space, basically the idea being that these mirrors

reflect back the sun's radiation into space. We would need many

thousands of these. Millions? Possibly. Number two we have a plan

to deal with the oceans to try to make them more fertile, chucking

human wee into the oceans to make it more fertile to encourage the

growth of plankton, they would absorb CO2 and sink to the ocean

floor when they are dead. We have schemes to suck carbon dioxide out

of the at moss stpee, artificial tree, they would take - atmosphere,

art fix tree, they would take it - artificial trees and they would

take it in and bury T it is called carbon scrubbing, it is used by

divers, that explains the contraption in the studio. It looks

complicated but it is a simple advice to allow dive Tories

rebreathe their own breath. Inside - drivers to rebreathe their own

breath. Inside is soda lime, it is calcium hide drok side, what

happens is the breath is scrubbed clean of carbon dioxide so they can

rebreathe for many hours. Even some of the whacky one there is some

have been tested to an experimental level. Next week the United Nations

IPCC panel on climate change will look at the potential and risks of

the geoengineering ideas. I will expend more energy, I will cross

the studio to be joined from San Francisco by a member of the

steering group of the International Panel on Climate Change and the

chief scientist in from Greenpeace. These ideas of geoengineering, it

is kind of whacky, isn't it? Many of them sound whacky, at first, and

many of them are whacky. I would just like to separate myself from

one comment that was made in the introduction, in that most people

who propose these kinds of options are proposing them because they

feel it is very important to cut emissions deeply, and soon. But

we're afraid these emission, reductions are not coming fast

enough to avoid the risk of catastrophic climate change, so we

need to start looking into other mechanisms that could reduce risk.

What about the idea that you are putting sulphur into the air, you

are jetting up thousands, millions of aerosol, how on earth can that

be good for the atmosphere? In 1991 there was a huge volcano in the

Philippine that is put a lot of material into the stratosphere, and

the next year the earth cooled. And had that amount of material stayed

in the stratosphere, it would have been enough to offset on a global

average basis all of the warming expected for this century, we know

these things can basically work, what are the unintended adverse

effects to investigate. I will talk about that in a minute,

let's talk about firing giant mirrors into space, is that a

realistic option? I think the scale of that makes it a little

unfeasible, you would need to build more than a square kilometer of

satellite every half hour, which I think renders it unfeasible.

The IPCC will be discussing this Weekend, does that worry you, is it

- this week, does that worry you? It is an expression of failure to

talk about tinkering with the earth's climate because we can't

get loft lagging right, it is the position we are in. We are in a

very serious situation, but some of the things we need to do to tackle

climate change are fairly straight forward, and we don't needing to

down this route. Let's talk about them, we raised the possibility of

unintended consequence, what might they be? Geoengineering comes at

range of different possiblities, but quite a few of them involve

impacting on the earth's climate in ways we don't fully understand.

They will almost certainly be differentiating impact, some will

win and some will lose. We could impact rainfall, and cause some of

the problems we are trying to stop in climate change. Even if they

work, even if they can be agreed, we have still got this problem that

we have to keep doing them just to keep the planet stable.

principle is, if human beings contributed to climate change, and

climate change is man made, you think there should be a man made

solution to rectify it? I think dough and I are both in agreement

that the best solution to transform the energy solution into one that

doesn't use the atmosphere as a waste dump. That transition is not

coming rapidly enough to make me feel comfortable. You think

geoengineering will happen? I'm not about to predict the future, I

think that these geoengineering options in a situation where we

have catastrophic climate change might be able to save lives, so we

should investigate whether our well-being could be improved

through these approach, but I do not think these approachs are a

substitute for emissions reduction. Do you let the culprits off the

hook by saying things aren't moving fast enough so we have to up the

ante? This is a danger. For me the most important thing is for people

to think there is an easy technical solution so we don't need to

transform our energy solution, there are risks that these things

could produce the kind of add vrs outcomes we have just spoken -

adverse outcomes we have just spoken about. There is the

potential that famines can be averted if an ice sheet slips into

the ocean or methane comes out of Siberia. We want to know the

options and some may involve drastic things. My worry about the

immediate discussion is we can already see, you tour the websites

you can already see people talking about climate, saying let's not do

any of that difficult stuff, let's do the cheap and easy stuff. Do you

sense the political will is going out of the argument? The political

will can be reignited there are a whole range of things that can

reignite emphasis on political capital around climate change,

including the domestic benefit, when you look at Fukushmia, Libya,

the Middle East, you look at rising gas price, you think maybe there is

a better option, those are the kinds of things we are often

pushing. Thank you very much. You probably

never heard of them, but you have almost certainly slept beneath a

duvet cover bearing one of their designs, or worn a dress featuring

one of their bold patterns. One of the most prolific partnerships ever

produced, the sisters Collier and Campbell, will be celebrated at the

museum. Their designs will be produced for stores such as habitat,

and worn by Yves Saint Laurent. Sadly, Susan Collier, the older of

the sisters, died just as the exhibition was being put together.

I spent the day with the other half of the colourful duo.

It is about life itself, not really a copy of anything, or an idea.

is also about tell ago story. I think that each of these designs

has its own story, and it is part of a narrative. Susan Collier was

just 22, and Sarah Campbell, a teenager, when they began designing

textiles. We grew up in a house where there was just colour on

everything. There was patterns. were completely surrounded by print

of all kinds and weaving, and colour, and cloth, and that was all

just normal. Wielding their paint brushes, they created everything

from curtain material, to cushions, from high treat fashion to couture.

It is something you would want to be with, isn't it, it is beautiful.

Exsub rent. So many of the design - Exuberant. So many of the designs

look pressure, it is hard to believe they were 30 or 40 years

ago. This is where we paint. In the beginning they worked exclusively

for the iconic store Liberty of London, with their front rooms as

the workshops. Even now this tiny artisan space be lies a success

that travels the world. This is the little key that tells us what

colours goes on what screens, these are the colour tabs. Colour is

always very important to us. Our mum used to give us bits of fabric

and paint and ask us to match it, which we were good at. I don't know

how we learned to do it but we did. Was art important, so the most

obvious influence has always been Matisse. I know Susan speaks often

of the Matisse book that my parents had. I remember them coming home,

they had bought a little Ivan Hitchings painting, it was the high

spot of my childhood. We came from a very left-wing family, our

parents' work was very much, I think both of them, in their very,

very different ways, were very creative, very investigative, and

there was never any question Take That's sort of work one does, and

it is perfectly OKment we never had to prove anything to them. Is there

a political overtone to how you think about your work? There is a

view that good design should be available for everyone, if that is

political or just common decency I don't know. I don't know if those

two words go together. They are amazing, they are textile designers

in a true tradition, some how. They haven't succumbed to all the sort

of machinery and the digital things, and photo copiers and this and that,

it is so easy to do on a computer now. Their work is so kind of

really joyous. When you worked with your sister, how did you work

together, how did you do it? was much more the voice of Collier-

Campbell and the public side of us. She was brilliant at managing the

work and getting work and all of that. I suppose I suppose more of

my time was spent painting and drawing. Traditionally. We would

discuss the my nugsia of think of these - the minuscule of any of

these things, the rhythm, the pattern and the harmony. Throughout

the years the sisters designed clothes for themselves, in 1971

Yves Saint Laurent expressed an interest in using their fabric for

his haute couture collection. How much of a step change was it when

Yves Saint Laurent came calling? was a terrific opportunity. He

didn't call to us direct, he was calling through Liberty, we were

working with Al-Libbi of London Prints. It gave us I suppose two

things, one is that he recognised the fun of it and the lovely

painting, and to see what he made of what we did was so full of

energy, so pretty, and it gave us the marvellous opportunity to do a

lot of work around the theme that is he loved. Was he complimentry?

think in the use it was a compliment, yes. I think the

signature of Collier-Campbell has to be colour, the wonderful way in

which the fabrics move, their richness, the heat that comes out

of many of their works, it's so unEnglish, and yet they are

quintessentially English in the way which they build on the traditions

of Morris and others. We are being told that manufacturing in the UK

is on the decline, what do you think about that? I think it is

very sad, I wish it wasn't so, maybe it will grow again. To see

the printing industry, which was such a huge and wonderful industry

in Britain gone, and to think that we live on island made of coal and

surrounded by sea which is full of fish, is pretty sad when we can't

seem to use any of that. I'm sad for it. I think back, even to when

we started and Liberty of London Prints were printing down on the

river Wandall in Merton were William Morris printed, and the

printing sheds were so vibrant and lovely, and the people were hand

printing, and hanging up the cloth in the ceiling of the sheds, it was

a wonderful atmosphere and a lovely place, that is what the printing

was about. On May 7th this year, Susan Collier died. We did decide

to paint her coffin, when I say "we", I painted with her two

drawers, and their two daughters, it was - two daughters, and their

two daughters, it was in the studio, we had to bring it in so it didn't

alarm the neighbours, it was quite a laugh to do it. There was a lot

of fun and a lot of crying at the same time. It was great thing to do.

How does Sarah Campbell see the future of Collier-Campbell without

her sister and working partner of over 50 years? It will be very

different, I can't imagine not having my working partner, who I

have worked with pretty well every day of my life, all my working life,

with me. And yes it will change, because we have other people here

helping us, but we will still be painting, painting, painting, that

is what I love, and that's what I'm good at.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds

Tomorrow morning's front pages That's all from Newsnight tonight,

we return to the problems in Greece for just a moment. We have obtained

footage of one of the most committed protestors who hasn't

missed a riot for the last three years and always on the frontline,

we think his name is Fido! # There's a voice that keeps on

calling me # Down the road

# It's where I'll always be # Every stop I make

# I'll make a new friend # Can't stay for long

# Just turn around # I'm gone again

# Maybe tomorrow I'll want to settle down

# Until tomorrow # I'll just keep moving on

# Down this road Today's heavy showers are fading

But there's no cloud and rain to come tomorrow. Initially the wetter

weather drives northwards up the western side of the UK, then we

push rain into eastern areas during the afternoon. I don't think there

will be much rain to the east of the Pennine, always wetter in North

West England. Later in the day through the Midland, East Anglia

and the south-east Midlands, the rain will push back the

temperatures, a cool southerly breeze picking up along the south

of England, in the south west there could be evening sunshine in

Cornwall and Devon in the rain. Sunshine in Wales, clouding over

quickly, rain becoming steader and heavier across the Brecon beacon,

heavier rain will clear away from eastern parts of Northern Ireland,

then back into the bog standard sunshine and showers you might say,

it will turn wetter in Scotland as main pushing northward, the far

north not doing too bad. In Inverness, very little rain here,

there will be rain moving into Edinburgh, that rain will continue

on Friday as well. Looking further south the wet weather doesn't

really go away, temperatures 14-15, less cold on Saturday, but there