Browse content similar to 23/06/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, Europe's leaders gather in Brussels, but should they be | :00:07. | :00:13. | |
talking about bailout or a default. Loaded with debt and facing eye- | :00:13. | :00:19. | |
watering austerity s Greece getting to the "can't pay-won't pay stage ". | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
Our political editor has spent the day annoying important people. | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
REPORTER: What do you think about the idea of leaving the euro? | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
How much will British tax-payers have to cough up to save the Greek, | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
you may not like the answer from Germany's Europe minister. | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
A new landmark in history. More than 60 years after these men | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
created the European project, we will ask if it really is the | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
biggest crisis it has ever faced. Also tonight w what has the Labour | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
leader got against democracy, Ed Miliband ditches Shadow Cabinet | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
elections, Alan Johnson will be here to explain why. | :00:57. | :01:04. | |
Roll up, roll up, why an attempt to get animals out of the circus ring | :01:04. | :01:14. | |
:01:14. | :01:16. | ||
Good evening, the mess in Greece is not formally on the agenda of the | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
Brussels summit, but it is on the mind of all the gathering leaders, | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, says no formal decisions | :01:23. | :01:29. | |
will be taken. She's well aware in Berlin there are posters for a new | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
Euro-sceptic book by a German industrialists, demanding she | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
rescue our money, as the title puts it. It will be your money too, | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
although it is not clear how much Britain will be expected to stump | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
up. Let's start in Brussels w our political editor. What is the mood | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
like there tonight. I think the mood tonight is they | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
are making progress. The European leaders have discussed the European | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
economy over the last two or three hours over dinner and subsequently, | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
in particular, of course, they had to discuss the Greek crisis. They | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
have issued a statement about half an hour ago, in which they say they | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
are urging European finance ministers to sort out the second | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
Greek bailout package by early July, in other words, within the next few | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
days. They welcomed the vote of confidence that the Greek Prime | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
Minister got in the Greek parliament earlier in the week. But | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
they are also saying to Greece, look, you have got to forget | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
domestic political squabbles, that for any package of austerity | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
measures to work in your country, you have to have cross-party | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
support. That is a prerequisite for success, European leaders are | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
telling the Greeks. They are saying, the Irish have managed to pass | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
tough measure, the Portuguese have managed to pass tough measure, | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
those economies are on the way to economy, you have to do the same. | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
That was the message from tonight. EU leaders gathered here tonight in | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
what many think is the worst crisis in more than 50 years of the | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
European Community. A member-state is about to default on its detects, | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
and maybe leave the euro. With unthinkable consequences for | :03:09. | :03:16. | |
several other EU countries. And the whole European economy. | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
Indeed, the Greek Prime Minister arrived here tonight, saying this | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
wasn't just a crisis for Greece. This is a fight for the Greek | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
people. This is a fight for Greece, for our country, but it is also a | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
fight for a common European currency and the common Europe. | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
Germany's Angela Merkel warned that nothing substantial is likely to be | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
decided this week on the Greek situation. | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
TRANSLATION: In such a situation, everyone must stand together in a | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
country. This is achieved in Ireland and in Portugal, and | :03:48. | :03:57. | |
therefore we pressed for this also to be achieved in Greece. REPORTER: | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
Can Greece be saved Prime Minister? David Cameron reeling from charges | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
of bullying from a Tory MP back home kept quiet. Earlier in praying, | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
Mr Cameron claimed to have assurances from Germany that | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
Britain wouldn't have to pay towards the proposed second bailout | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
for Greece. As thepm has insisted, several - PM has insisted several | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
times this week. I have received assurances from other countries, | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
including from the Germans, that this won't be the case, and I'm | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
sure that they will staik stick to those assurances, and whatever | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
arrangements are reached in Europe for the eurozone and for Greece, | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
will not include the European financial mechanism. Earlier this | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
afternoon, socialist leaders met to discuss solidarity for their Greek | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
colleagues. Their President admitted this is indeed a decisive | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
moment. How serious is this crisis do you think, historically? | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
know, as a former Prime Minister and economist, who recalled the oil | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
crisis in the 70s, who have read about the crisis in the 30, who | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
knows the development after the Second World War, so this is the | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
worst crisis in the history of the European Union. That is why I | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
really appeal to the European Council, please understand that | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
time has come now not only to think on your own country in the | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
traditional way when you come as Prime Minister to fight for your | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
interests, think of Europe as a whole, and we have never, ever been | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
challenged so seriously as we are now. | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
But Cathy Ashton, the Britain who is Europe's High Representative for | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
Foreign Affairs, refused to be drawn. | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
REPORTER: How big a crisis do you think it is in the EU? Leave it to | :05:46. | :05:56. | |
:05:56. | :05:58. | ||
them. It's been reported tonight that the | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
President of the European Council has said that the European | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
financial stability mechanism will not be used as part of the second | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
bailout for Greece. That is in line with what David Cameron has been | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
saying today, that he has had reassurances from various people, | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
including the Germans as you saw, that Britain won't have to | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
contribute to the bailout. Of course if that stability mechanism | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
was used, then Britain's contribution to that mechanism is | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
likely to be part of the bailout. It now looks like that is not going | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
to be a part Greek bailout. Tomorrow they come back here, but | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
they come back here at 9.00am. There are other important things on | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
the agenda tomorrow, including immigration, a big issue here, and | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
in particular, the effect of the Arab Spring, and the effect of huge | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
numbers of refugees on southern Europe, and British concerns that | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
may be the rules might be relaxed, and so therefore there is going to | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
be some pretty tough talking tomorrow on that issue after the | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
equally important, perhaps more important issue of the Greek crisis | :07:05. | :07:13. | |
tonight. For a German perspective on this, | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
earlier I caught up with German's Europe minister, who is in Berlin. | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
Whatever is decided in Brussels, do you accept that a Greek default is | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
inevitable? I do not believe it is necessary. I think it can be | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
avoided, if we take wise decisions, if the Greeks take the wise | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
decisions next week. The crucial vote in the Greek parliament will | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
be next week, not tomorrow, but the European Council can pave the way | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
for a setting in which the Greeks might be able to come to a | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
reasonable solution in their parliament. But you have in Greece | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
a country which is already loaded up with debts that it can't pay, an | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
austerity package that is extremely unpopular, and the best some people | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
think you can do in Brussels is postpone the inevitable. This is a | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
very risky approach, I think a chaotic situation could be very | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
dangerous not only for Greek banks, for Greek society, for the Greek | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
economy, but also for neighbours and the entire European Union. This | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
might be quite disastrous. A chaotic situation should be avoided | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
and I believe can be avoided. Wouldn't it be better for Greece | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
and the euro if Greece just left the eurozone, it could then devalue | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
and avoid the worst problems of the austerity package. As you know many | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
German citizens are now saying you shouldn't have let Greece into the | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
euro in the first place? We have to cope with the situation the way it | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
is now. I believe it is not possible to leave the euro zone, | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
simply because that would produce a chaotic situation, in that chaos I | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
believe the Greek banks would go down the drain immediately, taking | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
quite a few others with them. This is why I believe it is an untenable | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
proposia. The Greek Government is proposing what amounts to a fiscal | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
consideration of 12%, they don't have the - contraction of 12%, they | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
don't have support for that, that is a problem for them, but also for | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
you, without that support you can't go ahead? I think it is indeed a | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
very irritating situation, that unlike in Portugal, the opposition | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
in Greece is not ready to support the necessary. Although this Greek | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
opposition has been in power until something like 18 months ago and it | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
probably not - is not completely without responsibility for the | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
situation with which we have to deal with now. Can you confirm | :09:40. | :09:48. | |
Angela Merkel's position on a couple of things, is the | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
privatisation voluntary, and will banks agree with things that will | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
cost them money? In the present credit agreement there is no clause | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
for participation in the solution of such a problem which we face now. | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
So the voluntary solution is the only one that is probably legally | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
possible. But it can be pursued by making it attractive for the banks | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
and the other holders of titles against Greece, because otherwise | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
we might end up in a very chaotic situation in which the suffering | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
for those who hold these assets is even worse. I think there are good | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
reasons for a co-operative approach on the side of those who hold these | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
assets. I hear from the German banks they are ready to co-operate. | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
Can you also confirm whether Chancellor Merkel has come to an | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
agreement with the British Prime Minister, that Britain will not | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
contribute to the European bailout fund through the European Stability | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
Mechanism, but only through the IMF commitment? I do not know what the | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
outcome of the talks between the Prime Minister and the Chancellor | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
have been today. I think they met within the more centre right parts | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
of the political spectrum, and within that circle there might have | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
been an agreement, I'm not aware of it. Understand this is a matter of | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
some importance to the British Government, obviously they will | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
live up to the IMF commitment, but this is a different matter? | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
commitments are crucial for Britain, I have no doubt that the UK will | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
fulfil them, on the other hand, the good future of the YuriGagarino50 | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
Roy is in the very best - euro is in the very best interests of the | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
UK, although it is not part of the eurozone, I wouldn't be surprised | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
if we see a co-operative mood in the UK as well. One criticism in | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
Germany is the lack of leadership from Sarkozy and Merkel, and David | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
Cameron can't lead because we are not in the euro and there is a lack | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
of leadership in the heart of Europe? I wouldn't disagree, I | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
would not point to specific personal tee, but I would say | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
Europe needs stronger leadership. What we obviously need is the | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
Europe that does not take decisions in field where is regional and | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
national decisions are completely sufficient, but have a couple of | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
areas where we need more Europe and the currency question is one of | :12:13. | :12:20. | |
those areas. Our economics editor, Paul Mason, | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
was in Greece for Newsnight last week, he's still tracking the story | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
for us what do you think they are actually trying to come up with in | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
Brussels? It is on a knife edge, it could all come together or fall | :12:36. | :12:44. | |
apart. The principle they are looking at is in a light way | :12:44. | :12:52. | |
"forebearance", or in a heavy way "self-deillusion". What account | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
Greeks deliver, the 28 billion of auts terity signed up to and can't | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
get through the Greek parliament wasn't enough and they needed 5 | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
billion more. He said he can deliver that and here are the extra | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
things I can do. He spend the weekend telling his MPs and the | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
party that he was going to do less, and soften the austerity package. | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
Then we have the bondholders, they are all going quietly told, these | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
are people who have lent Greece money, you will voluntarily role | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
over that loan for five years. Meanwhile, in the markets, the | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
technicalties are that if they change the terms of those loans, | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
the rules say it is a default. So we just don't know whether this | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
forebearance approach will bear fruit, and the ultimate test of it | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
is the tear gas and the steel- tipped batons and the rocks | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
breaking on St Agnes Square, as is depressingly likely they will do | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
next week. We have some more clarification of what Britain might | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
be liable for in all of this? Britain is, whatever Mr Cameron | :13:55. | :14:02. | |
says, if the 60 billion, smaller European stability fund is actually | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
activated, we are liable for about seven billion euros of it, we have | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
put in 1.2 billion euros so far. Nobody is activating it, that is | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
the situation at the moment. That is fine, because the scale of the | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
problem is too big in Greece for that fund to be applied to. The | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
question, I think, that we will look back on. You heard there, that | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
the European socialist leader is saying that everybody should be | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
collaborative, and the Germans there, let's have some leadership, | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
Mr Cameron can come back and say, look, I have achieved something, | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
because we are not taking part in the Greek bailout. Is that what you | :14:41. | :14:49. | |
want to achieve? The reason this 60 billion fund exists is because it | :14:49. | :14:55. | |
is a solidarity fund is for it is the 27 nation European Union for | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
the currency that has been, like it or not, written into the | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
constitution. It is still part of the European project. The question | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
remains for the coalition Government, how much leadership | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
does it want to show? Good question, we will pursue the | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
answer over the next few days. A little later we will return to | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
the European project and ask if this crisis really is the biggest | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
it has ever faced. The circus came to town today, or | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
at least to the House of Commons, where there were some quite | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
peculiar scenes in a debate over whether to ban wild animals from | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
the big top. You might have thought the Government have had other | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
things to think about, but they spent the day fighting against a | :15:37. | :15:45. | |
bill brought in by an MP who said staff at Downing Street tried to | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
stop him publishing it. You may find some of these scenes upsetting. | :15:51. | :15:58. | |
This is the last elephant in British circus, his mistreatment | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
has brought the continuing misuse of wild animals as entertainment to | :16:04. | :16:12. | |
prominence. Today 200 MPs who want to ban the use of all wild beasts | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
in circuses secured a debate in the House of Commons, and were joined | :16:15. | :16:22. | |
by celebrity backers too. I think the ayes have it. When the vote | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
came, the Government position was defeated without even a division. | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
That doesn't mean there will be a ban on wild animals in the big top. | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
This was a backbench debate and the result isn't binding. But although | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
it all looked very consensual, behind the scenes it resembled a | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
bear pit. Backbench MPs here at Westminster have been regaling me | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
with heart rending tales of cruelty, intimidation, degradation, they | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
haven't been talking about the treatment of animals, they have | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
been talking about their own treatment at the hands of the whips. | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
Colleagues of Mark Pritchard, the Conservative MP, who has led the | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
calls for ban, says he was contacted on three separate | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
occasions by Downing Street, including late last night, in an | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
attempt to get him to water down his proposal, he was told if he | :17:09. | :17:16. | |
didn't do so his career could be endangered. I was offered incentive | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
and reward on Monday, it was ratchetted up to last night where | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
he was threatened. I had a call from the Prime Minister's office | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
directly, I was told unless I withdraw this motion that the Prime | :17:30. | :17:40. | |
:17:40. | :17:41. | ||
Minister himself said that he would look upon it very dimly indeed. | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
This followed some audacious movements from the Government, | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
initially there was a three-line whip on MPs to oppose an outright | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
ban. But the Commons speaker refused to allow a Government | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
compromise to be discussed, and backed off and allowed MPs to vote | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
as it pleased. This morning's roar of the lion had become this | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
evening's squeak of the mouse. It had been pretty clear which way | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
things were going, when one MP, who didn't support a ban, failed to | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
tame his fellow politicians. looks all very cruel. The reality | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
is many of these animals, many of these animals have been so | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
domesticated over so many years, that to wrench them out of the life | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
they are used to, would be, would I believe be more cruel, would be | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
more cruel than to allow them to continue. The welfare is what the | :18:41. | :18:48. | |
Government has to implement. official Downing Street line is | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
they were reluctant to make policy on the hoof. They say they had | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
advice that ban could face a legal challenge. But the Government's | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
opponents say they shunned be riding roughshod over public | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
opinion. This former party animal is more interested in animal | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
welfare these days, the designer, Meg Matthew, once attended Downing | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
Street receptions as the wife of Noel Gallagher. And after today's | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
debate she's calling on the current occupant of Number Ten to back | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
fully an outright ban. They are mentally and physically broken down | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
these wild animals, it is for entertainment. We are supposed to | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
be an animal-loving nation and it is barbaric. She said the Prime | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
Minister might have had a particular reason for not want to | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
go support a ban. The reason David Cameron stepped in, is because in | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
his constituency he has the biggest wild animal breeders in the country. | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
So there you go. I contacted the company concerned | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
and they said they had never met David Cameron or lobbied him on | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
this issue and the suppliers of wild animals to drama productions, | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
not to circuses wouldn't be affected by a ban in this case. | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
Downing Street are rejecting the accusation that is the Prime | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
Minister was baring his teeth on this issue, he knew that circuses | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
and wild animals would be banned in due course, but he didn't want an | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
early ban because he couldn't promise what he couldn't deliver. | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
The Government is remining us for the meantime it is committed to a | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
tougher licensing regime, but at the last count n2009, only 39 wild | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
animals were used in British circuses, it is estimated fewer now, | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
20 or so, is that worth putting a political career in danger. If the | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
Government is serious about listening to parliament, if it is | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
serious about seeing parliament reassert its authority, on days | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
like today it needs to stand aside and allow Members of Parliament not | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
to be robot, but occasionally speak out on issues they feel strongly | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
about. We can assure you no animal was hurt in the making of our | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
programme. A few parliamentary careers might have been damaged and | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
some very senior egos bruised. We have some news broken in the past | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
hour about the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, trying to end elections | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
to the Shadow Cabinet, why is he doing this? There is a review of | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
Labour's internal workings going on at the moment. It is part of this | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
they are looking at a whole range of issues, including elections to | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
the Shadow Cabinet. Ed Miliband believes elections to the Shadow | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
Cabinet, happening only in opposition, would be a distraction, | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
he says look the party should be looking to voters not turning in on | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
itself. That is his reason for doing it. Some cynics might point | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
out that around that Shadow Cabinet table there are more supporters for | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
his brother for the Labour leadership than himself. There is | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
another problem he's trying to solve here as well, in the run up | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
to this party's annual conference in September he wants to push | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
through a whole package of measure, a whole package of reforms. What | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
some party insiders have said he has chosen the wrong issue, talking | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
about the Shadow Cabinet, he needs to talk about a new way to elect | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
the party leader, he's being pummel bid the Government for being put in | :22:17. | :22:25. | |
by trade union votes. What about the MPs? The MPs who | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
elect Shadow Cabinet members, he will not talk to them until Monday | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
night about this. One of them John McDonald, wanted to talk to him | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
tonight. I'm really disappointed, I hear that people around Ed Miliband | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
are spinning this as his Clause IV moment, where he demonstrates | :22:43. | :22:51. | |
strong leadership by beating the party into sub mis, I think he has | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
misread the situation. I have been talking to some other members of | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
the parliament and the national executive, and they have to agree | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
on these changes. One said Ed Miliband needs to make the Shadow | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
Cabinet more effective rather than worrying how it is elected. Another | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
said it would cause ructions in the party, another said is he as | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
consensual as he presented himself. In his favour, Labour in Government | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
don't allow the cabinet to be elected, they are chosen by the | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
leader, and the Conservatives, it is not an earth-shattering moment, | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
if you do it in opposition. We're joined by the former Home Secretary. | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
Why did Ed Miliband choose today to come out against democracy in the | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
parliamentary Labour Party? hasn't come out against democracy. | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
We should put the election of the Shadow Cabinet in the same place as | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
animals performing in circuses. It is about time this changed. It is | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
shorely welcome. Not by everybody, we just heard John McDonald and | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
others? There will be a vote of the parliamentary Labour Party, this | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
will sail through. As far as the time is concerned, on Saturday we | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
have the National Policy Forum in Wrexham, maybe this came out and | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
they decided they would project it themselves rather than have a leak. | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
It is absolutely sensible and wise to do this. Can you imagine Alex | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
Ferguson as the manager of Manchester United being told, look, | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
you are not allowed to pick your team, the squad will elect your 11 | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
first team players. You can play them in whatever position you want, | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
they will elect them. Why has it been so daft for so long? Good | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
question. We were in Government for 13 years and we weren't thinking of | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
these things. It is amazing, you are quite right, this isn't | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
disappear along with some of the other nonsense that is a relic from | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
when Labour Governments were short interludes in Conservative rule. | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
That has all changed now, we are party of Government. It is | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
absolutely right to make this change. Do you worry that the | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
message in tomorrow morning's newspapers wonts be that, it will | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
be Ed Miliband doesn't rate some members of the Shadow Cabinet and | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
he wants to get rid of them because he can't stand the sight of them | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
around the table. God knows what will be in the press tomorrow, I'm | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
not worried about that at all. No- one in their right minds would have | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
a leader that can't pick their Shadow Cabinet. Nobody in their | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
right minds would do that. In Government that rule doesn't apply. | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
If it doesn't apply in Government it shouldn't apply in opposition, | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
fighting to get into Government. It is a distraction, and it is a relic | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
from the past. It has nothing to do with the quality of the Shadow | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
Cabinet, which is actually very good. It has nothing to do with | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
that at all. I think there might be a bit of nonsense about that, | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
generally most people will say, about time. Probably 15 years | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
overdue. Isn't this, I mean the other part of it is maybe this | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
itself is a bit of a distraction. The big question face ing your | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
party coming up to the party - facing your party coming up to the | :25:53. | :26:01. | |
party conference is what are you for, what are you offering, what | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
will you do for the British public, this has nothing to do with that | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
but to do with personalities? process of looking at the defeat, | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
it was a heavy defeat for us last year, is coming to a head in these | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
policy forums, one aspect of it is the party structure. You were right | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
to mention early on how we elect the leader. This will all be part | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
of it. This isn't it, the way we elect the Shadow Cabinet, there | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
will be all of that and the concentration on policy. That | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
doesn't detract from the fact that we had this hangover from the past, | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
we should have got rid of it while we were in Government and changing | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
lots of things. For whatever reason we didn't, now we should do it as | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
quickly as possible. That is interesting, you say Ed Miliband is | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
committed to changing the system to which Labour leaders, including | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
himself, are elected? He said some while back, when I made comments on | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
this, he thinks it has to change. The job that Peter Hain is doing on | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
this particular work t would be strange, weird, perverse, if we do | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
all of that and don't look at the way we elect the leader. Just a | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
final thought. How then, what's the mechanism for getting this through. | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
You can't just think Ed Miliband can't just dictate this to the | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
party. How does he push these things through? The rules are about | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
what the NEC decides and what conference decides. What Ed is | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
saying, from my understanding, is he will ask the parliamentary | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
Labour Party, who is the electorate for the Shadow Cabinet. He will ask | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
them to vote on this, we will have a debate in the parliamentary | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
Labour Party, and we will have a vote on it. A secret ballot. I | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
think that's absolutely the right way to do it, as well as the other | :27:46. | :27:55. | |
mechanisms in the rule back. - Book. | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
More on the troubles in the eurozone. | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
Olli Rehn gave a blunt statement this week that Greece's problems in | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
Europe are the biggest crisis since World War II. | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
There have been plenty of crisis, the Maastricht Treaty, and Margaret | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
Thatcher's handbagging of various European leaders. | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
How serious is it this time? We must build a kind of united | :28:24. | :28:33. | |
states of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of | :28:33. | :28:40. | |
toilers be able to regain the simple Joyce and hopes which - joys | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
and hopes that make life worth living. | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
Europe's union grew out of the experience of what happens when | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
national interest is pursued to its ultimate most terrible conclusion. | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
What could have been more logical to Britain's war leader, than a way | :28:57. | :29:04. | |
of subsuming those rivalries in the common good. Right from the start, | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
the European Community was seen as a mechanism for binding Germany, | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
peacefully, within the wider European family. People were still | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
fixated on the horrors of war. As the decades have passed, its | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
purpose has shifted subtley, to moderating what would otherwise be | :29:23. | :29:31. | |
the political and economic power of unified Germany. | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
The sounding of the coal and steel community in 1951 marked the start | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
of a process. Their first working session for the plan to pool steel | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
and coal. The Six Nations, all now part of the euro, sought to make | :29:46. | :29:54. | |
war impossible by closer economic integration. | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
In the beginning it was to moderate and contain Germany. Later on the | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
core mission of the European Union became the preservation of peace | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
and co-operation in the European Union, and now I think we are | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
moving in the direction of a European Union which internally | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
might be capable of co-ordinates its economic policy more than it | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
did in the past in which externally is not stablising itself, but | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
trying to export stability to other parts of the world. | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
As the European Community flourished, even Britain decided to | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
knit itself into this new creation. Self-interest was beginning to take | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
over. For the British, the appeal lay in | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
growing a single economic space, rather than in pushing forwards | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
ever greater European integration. The President of the Commission | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
said at press conference the other day that he wanted the European | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
Parliament to be the democratic body of the community, he wanted | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
the commission to be the executive, and he wanted the Council of | :31:00. | :31:10. | |
:31:10. | :31:10. | ||
Ministers to be the Senate, no. No. The collapse of the Soviet bloc | :31:10. | :31:16. | |
both created a united Germany, much bigger than France or Britain, and | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
offered the possibility for many new countries to join. Elites | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
across the continent saw the chance to push for further integration to | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
bind this growing family together. It is obviously create bid elites, | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
because ordinary people will not suddenly think up something like | :31:34. | :31:41. | |
that, so let's create it. That doesn't mean that this is some | :31:41. | :31:49. | |
elite idea that is shoved down the throat of other people. But the | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
elites who favoured the euro, the constitution and ever greater | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
political integration started to run foul of public opinion. France | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
and the Netherlands voted "no" to the institution. Other countries | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
stay the out of the euro, national interests was reaverting itself. | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
These days Germany boasts Europe's biggest population, and by far its | :32:11. | :32:17. | |
most successful exporting economy. And an increasing numbers of | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
Germans are wondering why they should remain quite so closely tied | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
to a European Union that requires them to keep bailing out less | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
successful members and so restrict their economic freedom of action. | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
The need to finance huge deficits in Greece or Spain, has produced | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
anger in Germany, propping up the euro has become horribly expensive. | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
That lead some to want to ditch it, but supporters of the European | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
project arguinging the case for resuming the process of integration. | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
When I and my constituents who later on in the Foreign Ministry | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
was decribing the European project, there were always two competing | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
desires, on the one side, you see it now, nobody wanted to pay for | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
the economic shortcomings and mistakes of another country n this | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
case Greece. But, on the other side, Germany wants to have a friendly | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
relationship with all its neighbours, and by the way, its | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
most important trading partners. When you put these two in balance | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
the pro-European argument was always winning. If some see in | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
Greece's turmoil a chance for another leap forward, others think | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
that simply won't garner support across the union. For as long as | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
Germany and others are prepared to bail out the euro, it and the union | :33:41. | :33:51. | |
:33:51. | :33:51. | ||
itself are likely to survive. I'm joined by an adviser to the | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
European President. The grok communist - the Greek communist | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
party member, and my other guest. Is this the end for Greece in the | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
euro do you think? It might be, but there could be a chance for Europe | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
itself, because I think this is practically the end of the so- | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
called modern Europe. The euro is not the solution. It starts being | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
more or less a hell, not only for Greek, but for the so-called | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
western economy. By killing Greeks, killing their future, taking their | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
country, their streets, their island, the sun, everything they | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
produce, for years and years and years now, this is not going to | :34:37. | :34:45. | |
save the system. There is a pathogony in the system, it is not | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
a monetary answer. The euro won't save the Greece, it may be the | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
problem for Greece, let me put that? With respect, Greece would be | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
in a far worse situation if it wasn't receiving a loan from other | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
fellow European countries. On the euro itself, we forget the | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
YuriGagarino50 owe as a whole is doing - euro is doing well, it has | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
lower public debt than the US, UK or Japan, economic growth has | :35:12. | :35:20. | |
returned, it last a balance of payments elibum, that is better on | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
- equilibrium, it is better than the pound. Except you have riot | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
anything Greece, and austerity measures they can't pay for? | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
have three countries that have run up excessive debts in the euro, | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
countries outside Europe have done that as well. It is not to do with | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
the euro. Inside the euro they are able to address it with loans and | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
grants, we are not giving the money we are lending the money. From | :35:46. | :35:55. | |
fellow eurozone countries. You were nodding when that remark | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
was made, the first time you agreed with a communist politician, was | :36:00. | :36:08. | |
that an "I told you so"? Nobody wants to be that person to say that, | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
we have agreed that countries should be able to default on debts, | :36:13. | :36:21. | |
and we have been arguing that for a number years. It is the least worst | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
option. People think that will be chaotic? Pressing another high- | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
interest loan on someone will not help them. The bailouts have added | :36:28. | :36:35. | |
to the amount of debt that the Greeks have to pay out. It would be | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
better to let them default like Latin American countries did ten | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
years ago. I wonder how far the elites in Europe are disconnected | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
from the people in Europe. That is true of your Government and the | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
Government of Greece as well? Definitely, they are completely | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
disconnected. I think that it is like an autocracy, and we are going | :36:57. | :37:04. | |
back about 300 years. We lose every working-class right, we are losing | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
things European people fought for. There is no future, my dear, the | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
eurozone is not a state, it is just an area. Some make money, I think | :37:13. | :37:21. | |
that the north is making money the south loses. You can't have the | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
same currency, the same measure, with exporting countries like | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
Germany, and importing countries like Greece. Afterall, you can't | :37:30. | :37:40. | |
:37:40. | :37:40. | ||
have people I made a mistake, I trusted you, you put you in, if you | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
go to any bank in London, and you someone without enough money, you | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
don't give him a credit car. That means Greece shouldn't have been | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
allowed into the euro in the first place? No, I think Greece needs to | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
start disengaging from big organisations not helping the new | :37:58. | :38:05. | |
generation fight for a future. Like NATO, look we are in ceeth, we have | :38:05. | :38:14. | |
beautiful sun, we still have a beautiful American base where | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
aircraft can begin their trip to Libya. This question of the elites | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
being out-of-touch, people in Germany are saying that too? What | :38:21. | :38:30. | |
is this deal they say, why are we working so hard to pay for these | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
countries what does it have to do with us. Do you accept the point | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
that the elites are out-of-touch? They are usually elected | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
representatives in our 27 democracies in the nuep, confronted | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
with our - in the European Union, confronted with the interdependance, | :38:46. | :38:52. | |
like it or not, and we find Greece has gotten into a difficult | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
situation through their own decisions. We are trying to get | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
them to restore credibility, we are helping by loans, not grants, it | :39:00. | :39:07. | |
would be far worse for Greece if we weren't doing that. The idea we | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
could let Greece go bankrupt, come on, learn the lessons of a few | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
years ago, remember Lehman Brothers, we thought that was in America and | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
won't have nothing to do with us. It had knock-on effects throughout | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
the world. It is the same with Greece, if it started to default it | :39:24. | :39:31. | |
would have a knock-on effect on banks across the world. Britain has | :39:31. | :39:38. | |
the third eyest level of banking liability, - highest level of | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
banking liability. Would the European project, in your opinion, | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
not survive if Greece was allowed to default, is that what you are | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
saying, is it that bad? It is not to do with the European project. | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
With Lehman Brothers it was not to do with the dollars surviving, it | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
would have huge negative economic consequences across the rest of | :39:57. | :40:05. | |
Europe the inside and outside the eurozone and the European Union. | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
Richard and oir people, arguing for more yuep Europe are in favour of | :40:10. | :40:16. | |
the euro, - Richard and other people, arguing for more Europe are | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
in favour of the euro. Greece's debts are increasing faster than | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
its economy. Greece can't be in a situation where she is not going to | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
be unable to pay back her debts, without some sort of default, it is | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
mathematics, not public opinion. I raised the question of lack of | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
leadership in Europe, without pointing to personalities. You | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
could say the same for parties, where is David Cameron's leadership | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
on this? I'm very pleased the Prime Minister has said no to a Greek | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
bailout. I would now like to see him extend that same logic. | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
hasn't said that, has said no to the European financial stability | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
mechanism. Britain is still part of it and the IMF. Needs it apply the | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
same logic to groz and Portugal and Ireland as well? For the past 13 | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
months the Government has, in fect, been increasing our contingent | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
liabilities by something like �21 billion. That is 2p on the pound, | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
income tax t could double the size of the British army. It is a huge | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
amount of money. I'm pleased we're now changing course, and we are | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
realising we can't continue to throw ever greater liabilities at | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
sorting out a problem not of our own making. On that point of | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
leadership, which you heard seemed to be bought into. Through as | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
vacuum of leadership, you can't imagine a Schroeder getting this | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
out of hand in the way it should. Remember we are 27 sovereign | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
countries meeting together in the European Council, you can't just | :41:49. | :41:55. | |
ram things through, there are 27 democracies that have chosen the | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
leaders. You have to choose a consen with us among them. It is | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
easy to say if they were - consensus and agreement among them. | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
That doesn't work in the European Union, because we are 27 different | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
countries. We begin and will end with Greece. I want to repeat this | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
question I asked you before. Greece surely should not have been allowed | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
into the euro in the first place, you didn't meet the conditions, it | :42:23. | :42:30. | |
is obviously why now? I have been listening about the economics and | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
the economy. You didn't judge a country if as if it was a big | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
country like Lehman Brothers. This is a country and state, it is a | :42:38. | :42:46. | |
state of living, human beings, very hardly working people. When Lehman | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
Brothers blew down and brought out the whole system, nobody accused | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
the employees of the Lehman Brothers. They accused the | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
directors, it is a political problem. Europe, I have been | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
listening about 27 democracies, what kind of growth and economic | :43:03. | :43:09. | |
system. Some were created after wars. We had Yugoslavia, now we | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
have three or four or five different states. We have different | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
economies, we have different interests and we cannot have a | :43:17. | :43:26. | |
Europe that uses the euro as a weapon to colonise poorer countries, | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
or different different systems for country. The problem now for Greece | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
is not only surviving it is designing the future. You cannot | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
expect anybody to have a state with no future. We will leave it there, | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
thank you very much. Now a quick look at tomorrow | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
morning's front pages. The independent leads on the circus | :43:47. | :43:57. | |
:43:57. | :43:57. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 59 seconds | :43:57. | :44:56. | |
That's all from Newsnight tonight. We wanted to leave you with the | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
passing announced today of the Government's Central Office of | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
information, set up in 1946. Tok and trade was what was sometimes | :45:05. | :45:15. | |
referred to disparagingly as' ealth and safety! They produced some. | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
Charley tried to do an extra big jump and he went over the edge and | :45:18. | :45:26. | |
into the water. Charley nearly drowned. It was very | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
lucky for him he caught on the line. Charley says next time we go | :45:32. | :45:40. |