Browse content similar to 04/07/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight: They hacked into the mobile phone of an abducted | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
teenager. They deleted messages from the same phone, letting the | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
parents hope their daughter was still alive. And then they ran an | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
interview with those same parents, begging their dead child to come | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
home. Tonight the News of the World is accused of some of the most | :00:21. | :00:29. | |
odious antics in the long history of British tabloid journalism. What | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
is the fit punishment for commoditising the death of Milly | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
Dowler in a manner that could have interfered with a police murder | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
investigation? We're joined by the Dowler family lawyer and the MP | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
campaigning against News International. Also tonight, it's | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
lasted us 300 years but what chance is there of the union between | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
England and Scotland surviving? In Scotland they've a nationalist | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
government promising a referendum on independence. Here we have a | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
studio full of opinions and a poll suggesting half the English would | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
also like a vote on staying together. A Scotsman returns to his | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
roots to find out how strong is the appetite for divorce. And an | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
Irishman asks if an ascending English identity will soon replace | :01:08. | :01:18. | |
:01:18. | :01:21. | ||
a more complex British sense of who we are. That broughtal | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
assertiveness, people saying we have to claim a better Englishness. | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
Reclaim that, but there is no answer to what it may mean. We'll | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
hear from an Englishman, a Scotswoman and a British man, among | :01:30. | :01:40. | |
For once that overworked word 'scandal' is the only appropriate | :01:40. | :01:49. | |
one. It's one thing to break into the private phone messages of | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
actors and celebrities, but another to allegedly interfere into the | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
police investigation into the abduction and murder of a child. | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
The private investigator employed by the News of the World, hacked | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
into the mobile phone of the schoolgirl Milly Dowler while the | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
police were searching for her. It was alleged that he deleted | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
messages, giving the parents' hope that she was still alive. The | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
editor of the paper was rebreb ereb, the man appointed as the Prime | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
Minister's spin was Andy Coulson. It is hard to imagine a more | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
serious case. 13-year-old Milly Dowler disappeared from her home in | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
Walton on Thames in March, 2002. Her plight prompted saturation news | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
coverage and anguished appeals from her family. | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
Someone, somewhere, must know something. | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
She is staying with a friend or someone that she must know, if she | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
is please phone us and let us know. Let the police know. Any | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
information, however small it may seem must be given to us. | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
We need your help. There was a glimmer of hope, it | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
seemed that Milly could have been alive as the contents of her mobile | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
phone was changing, some messages were being deleted. | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
Milly, darling if you are watching or listening to this, mum, dad, | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
Gemma, granny, all of the family want you to know that we all love | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
you and really miss you. We can't wait to have you back home with us. | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
But the hope was misplaced. The Guardian newspaper reported this | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
afternoon, that the News of the World had hacked Milly Dowler's | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
phone, deleting messages to make room for new ones to obtain | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
different quotes for stories, it seems. | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
We at the Guardian have spoken to two separate sources who have told | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
us independently that Scotland Yard have obtained evidence that Milly | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
Dowler's phone was hacked by the News of the World and they are | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
currently investigating that. They've been in touch with Surrey | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
Police, they have taken statements from them recently, filling out the | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
detail and that investigation continues. | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
The police declined to comment, but if the Guardian is right, the | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
timing is shockingly cynical. The paper went on to irview the family | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
about their hopes and fears without mentioning the phone hacking and | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
tampering. The editor at the News of the World | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
of at the time that this particular episode took place is Rebekkah | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
Brooks, who is now Rupert Murdoch's Chief Executive in the United | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
Kingdom. News International said that this case is clearly a | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
development of great concern and they will be conducting their own | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
inquiries as a result. They will obviously co-operate fully -- fully | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
with any police request. News International is close to | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
securing final Government approval for the full takeover of BSkyB. | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
Rebekkah Brooks is now the Chief Executive of News International. | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
She is also a friend of the Camerons. We don't know if she knew | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
about the Milly Dowler case, but the political dimensions to the | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
story will add fuel to the fire. Richard Watson is with us. What | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
have you learn bad who was in charge of this, who authorised it? | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
This case is shocking, but it does not tell us about who knew what at | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
News International or the News of the World. We don't know if | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
Rebekkah Brooks knew about this Milly Dowler case, specifically, | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
although she was the editor. I suspect that she will be under | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
pressure to speak publicly, but it is time to look at the history of | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
the changing sands of News International. Back in 2009, a | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
senior Chief Executive told MPs, that it was just the Royal | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
Correspondent who knew about the hacking and the liaisons of the | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
private detective, but in April of this year, they were forced to | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
mount a remarkable U-turn, issuing this rather embarrassing statement, | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
saying: It is apparent that the inquiries have failed to uncover | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
important evidence and acknowledged that the actions then were not | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
sufficiently robust. I have been speaking to a source who has given | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
a fascinating insight around the culture of phone hacking with is | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
constructive if true. He says that some senior journalists and junior | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
managers revelled in the title Princes of Darkness. So that all | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
journalists who wanted to get phone hacking commissioned would have to | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
get approval from the so-called Princes of Darkness. It is | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
important to say that all the senior managers have denied | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
approving this action, but if the source is correct it suggests a | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
wider circle of knowledge than previously admitted. | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
With us now are Mark Lewis, the solicitor for the Dowler family and | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
a Labour MP, Tom Watson. You have spoken to the family tonight, how | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
are they efeeling? They are obviously devastated and were | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
devastated. They have just gone through an ordeal, a criminal trial, | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
to be notified of the police of this, to know that they were | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
victims of crime and their daughter was a victim of another crime in | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
the respect of phone hacking, just next to this, the people that they | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
thought that they were being supported by have let them down, | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
both the police, the press, everybody was letting them down. | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
Now, we have to be careful about this, there is the question of the | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
deleting of messages on Milly's phone, have they been told for a | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
fact that was -- that happened, firstly, secondly, that it was | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
carried out by somebody, an investigator or somebody that they | :07:43. | :07:50. | |
did not know? How it works is that when people's messages are or the | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
voicemail box is full. The message that goes out is that the voicemail | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
is full, try again later. Subsequently, if people are phoning | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
up and messages are left, the only explanation is that the person is | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
wiping the messages off, so that there is room in the voicemail to | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
leave voicemails. Did that really give them hope? | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
That would have given them hope, I'm sure it did in the particular | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
circumstances, the parents were trying to get hold of their | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
daughter. Tom, what do you make of this | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
is a failure of political leadership. There have been many | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
hints to Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg and David Cameron that something | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
very murky happened with Glenn Mulcaire and the News of the World | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
newsroom. They have let the Dowler family down tonight by not calling | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
for a public inquiry. It is time that they acted. That is the | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
biggest scandal of the lot. Politicians are frightened of News | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
International, they need to act. You are talking about your own | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
leader there? I'm afraid that he is as guilty as David Cameron and Nick | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
Clegg. Politicians across the board let the Dowler family down and the | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
other hacking victims, Parliament needs to speak out and sort this | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
out. What do you think should happen now? I think that all the | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
party leaders should come together and declare that when the criminal | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
investigations are over, that there is a judge-led inquiry to get to | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
the facts and hopefully some goodwill come out of this evil and | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
that is self-regulation of the newspaper industries that works. | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
Do you think this is a tipping point in the way that the public | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
regard the way some of the tabloid newspapers work? Well I think that | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
the PR people at News International have done a good job of persuading | :09:42. | :09:49. | |
people this is just about celebrity tittle-tattle, that is dispeled. | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
Part of the problem is that many are just learning the story, the | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
other scandal is that newspapers have refused to report the facts of | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
the case as it is revealed through the parliamentary einquiries and | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
through the police inquiries. Apparently it is in none of the | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
tabloids tomorrow? Well, can you believe it? They were happy to put | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
the Dowler family on the front pages during the case. | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
Now, the Dowler family's relationship with the News of the | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
World is quite a complicated one. It seems that Milly's phone was | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
being hacked, messages were being deleted, that was obviously | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
changing the way they thought, the hope that they clung to, they also | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
give an interview to the News of the World? What was happening they | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
were amongst people that they trusted, that they thought were | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
getting support it is a widely-read newspaper, an organ of effectively | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
hope of getting in touch with the public looking for things. In fact | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
what we find out is that they were culpable of a gross intrusion of | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
privacy and perhaps people who could be trusted. What you must | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
remember eis that Milly Dowler would not have been someone of | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
interest to Glenn Mulcaire, the private investigator, but for the | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
fact that she had been abducted. When that happened somebody at the | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
News of the World had to give specific instructions to say find | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
Milly Dowler, find her phone, listen to it. That person must be | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
absolutely shocked that they have been found out tonight. Why they | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
did that, why Glenn Mulcaire listened to the phone calls also. | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
Have you heard that there were five people at the newspaper, so-called | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
Princes of Darkness to authorise this behaviour? This phrase the | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
Princes of Darkness has been used to describe people. What Tom was | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
saying that people that put this spin on it, with celebrity sports | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
people, ets eets, that they were being listened to, it is something | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
that I have been banging my head against the wall, this is not just | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
about the celebrities, this is ordinary people who are victims of | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
a wide spread practise in the News of the World to get stories | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
irrespective of the harm that they might cause. | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
Do you have reason to believe that there are other cases out there of | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
a similar nature? Fortunately not that many cases, but I think that | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
we while see others involved in that type of thing, I know that Tom | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
has spoken about it in Parliament, that have been subject to hacking. | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
Since this inquiry, a number of whistle-blowers have talked to me | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
privately. There is a strong suspicion that one of the parents | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
murdered by Ian Huntley at Soham have been a target by the News of | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
the World. We would like you to stay, if not, | :12:45. | :12:55. | |
it may not make a difference. Our poll questioning Scottish | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
independence, 48% were against Scottish independence with 36 in | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
favour. That is about the same level of support for cutting the | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
tie north of the border. When we asked a similar question | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
four years ago 16% backed an oint Scotland. If the Scots choose to go | :13:13. | :13:23. | |
:13:23. | :13:31. | ||
it alone, the glir may not be too The remainder did not know. When | :13:31. | :13:41. | |
:13:41. | :13:44. | ||
The question of Scottish independence has become more urgent | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
since the Scots Nationalists took control of the Parliament in | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
Holyrood. They promise a referendum on independence. No-one is offering | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
the English a vote on whether 300 years of union should be chucked in | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
the bin. We're going to talk further about whether Britain has a | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
future shortly. First, we asked Allan Little what he thought was | :14:04. | :14:12. | |
behind the rise of Scottish nationalism. | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
Even they seem dumbfounded by the scale of their victory. It's game- | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
changing potential. 50 years ago the SNP polled less than 1% of the | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
popular vote. What has happened in Scotland in the course of my own | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
lifetime to turn them into "the" dominant force, one that is | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
changing the political landscape of Scotland? This party, the Scottish | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
party, the national party, carries your hope. We shall carry it | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
carefully. In the Scotland I grew up in, the British state was a very | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
concrete presence. It dug coal, milled steel, built ships, | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
manufactured motor cars. It put the gas and electricity and the phone | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
into your home. The state probably even owned the house you lived in. | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
In the '80s all that changed. Scottish industry was swept away. | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
Something of the shared experience of Britishness was swept away with | :15:08. | :15:18. | |
:15:18. | :15:19. | ||
it. Coal mining now belongs to the museum services. It is something we | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
learn that our forebearers once did. This is the mining museum at knew | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
ton grange near Edinburgh. The miners of Fife and the Lothains | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
were part of a shared community with not Hampshire, Yorkshire and | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
South Wales. They told the same history of struggle and social | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
progress. They fought the same fights against the same enemies. | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
They shared the pantheon of folk heroes. It was a pan-British | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
enterprise. Their tradition was one of the bedrocks of British identity | :15:51. | :15:59. | |
in Scotland. And it's gone. With every year that passes, it recedes | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
further and further into a distant collective memory. This is not so | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
much the rise of a new Scottish sentiment, it's more the gradual | :16:06. | :16:13. | |
decay of much of what it once meant to be British. After the Second | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
World War, the union between Scotland and England really meant | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
something. It's the closest the two nations have been since the act of | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
union in 1707. There had been a Great War against a common enemy of | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
fascism. The national health service was being established, this | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
great creation of the post-war Labour Government. Socialism itself | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
was a great integrative force. Then came Thatcherism, socialism | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
disappears, the state is not the same as it was and the ties that | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
bound became gradually loosened. Loyalty to the idea of the British | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
union is written into the street names of Scotland. To pre-war | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
generations the union meant the great shared enterprise of empire. | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
But that's long gone too. So what is left of Britishness? The Queen | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
remains very important, the army and all that kiefpbd thing is | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
important, but -- kind of thing is important, but at the heart, the | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
thing that most Scots feel in the depth of their being is that | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
Britain, a United Kingdom, offers them economic security and I think | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
the experience of our two main banks collapsing has really brought | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
that home to people. People think, hang on, if Scotland had been | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
independent around that time, who would have bailed out our banks? | :17:39. | :17:49. | |
Would we be in the same situation as Ireland or Iceland? Pro-union | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
politicians should be careful with this line of argument. Many Scots | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
remember being warned that even devolution would bring economic | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
disaster. It didn't. Oil has made Aberdeen the second richest city in | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
Britain. Unemployment in Aberdeenshire is less than 2%. | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
There is evidence that many Scots no longer respond well to being | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
told that they couldn't possibly survive alone. Alex Salmond made a | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
rod for his own back when he argued that an independent Scotland would | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
be part of some kind of ark of prosperity that took in Ireland and | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
Iceland. We don't hear much of that argument now. Even so, many | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
Scottish people look across the North Sea to small countries, | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
kprobl population to Scotland, also on the northern periphery of Europe, | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
Finland, Norway, Denmark, which prosper. And they ask: If they can | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
do it, why can't we? Is there really something inherent in the | :18:46. | :18:54. | |
nature of Scotland that makes it uniquely unable to pay its own way? | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
There is a well enTrenched popular perception of the Scots as | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
unproductive subsidy junkies, bailed out year after year by their | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
southern neighbours. What do the Treasury figures reveal? In 2008/9 | :19:09. | :19:16. | |
which is the last full numbers, in that year 59 billion was spend on | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
public expenditure and 43 billion came in by way of revenue. That gap | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
between those two figures, can you express it as a percentage of GDP. | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
In GDP between about 2005 and 2008, if you were to, that didn't include | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
North Sea oil revenues, I should caution, if you included that, | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
clearly that's a point for debate, then the percentage of GDP ranging | :19:47. | :19:54. | |
from 1.6 to 2.3%. When you include oil revenue from Scottish waters, | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
Scotland's budget deficit is not very different to that of the UK, | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
fairly normal by European standards. And when the price of oil rises, | :20:02. | :20:08. | |
Scotland's deficit falls below the UK's. Two things Scotland's got no | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
shortage of are these - wide-open spaces with almost nobody living on | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
them and secondly, plenty of this - wind. You just have to stand here | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
for a few mintoits feel the huge potential of it. Alex Salmond's | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
ambition is to turn Scotland carbon neutral by 2020. He talks about a | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
post-oil future in which an independent Scotland would be, what | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
he calls. The Saudi Arabia of renewable energy. Is it more | :20:36. | :20:46. | |
:20:46. | :20:51. | ||
achievable inside or outside the United Kingdom? This is Macies -- | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
mackies ice-cream, all made in Aberdeenshire and powered by the | :20:56. | :21:03. | |
wind on the hill, the whole process from udder to tub. | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
Mac Mackie is the boss. He has three wind turbines. They power his | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
factory and he sells excess electricity to the National Grid. | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
On balance over a year we produce more electricity on site than we | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
use. We're, from that point of view, carbon neutral. It's a huge | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
opportunity for Scotland. Scotland is the windiest country in Europe. | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
The UK as a whole is a big electricity user. That's why | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
Scotland can become 1 hundred% renewable by 2020, which is the SNP | :21:38. | :21:45. | |
plan. I think we can do that. herein lies the problem for Alex | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
Salmond. Many Scots support him in his drive to carbon neutrality and | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
in many other things, without seeing why they need to leave the | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
United Kingdom to do it. When the Scottish Parliament was set up more | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
than a decade ago, the sky didn't fall in, businesses did not run | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
away to England, there was no flight of capital. It quickly | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
established itself as the undisputed focus of political | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
domestic life in Scotland. But there is something odd about this | :22:15. | :22:22. | |
pafrlt, -- Parliament, it's the only national legislature | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
responsible for spending public money but has no corresponding | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
money to raise it. A consensus has formed among the major parties here | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
that that's got to change. It's about to. Westminster is planning | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
to transfer some responsibility for tax to Holyrood soon. The Scottish | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
Parliament is getting more powerful. And an intriguing new idea is | :22:44. | :22:51. | |
gaining traction, something they're calling devolution Max or | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
independence light. The SNP has been talking about independence in | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
a different way to the way it's been conceived. They accept, for | :22:58. | :23:05. | |
the time being, Scotland would retain the pound sterling. So a lot | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
of economic policy would exist south of the border. There's talk | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
of using the UK diplomatic corps, the UK embassy as broad, perhaps a | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
unified command structure in the army, though they would remove | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
Trident and other ways in which they call a new social union would | :23:23. | :23:32. | |
:23:33. | :23:34. | ||
replace the old UK. I went to an agricultural fair in Murray, | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
they're farming folk. In England this would be natural Tory | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
territory. Here they vote SNP. That doesn't mean they'll vote for | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
independence. I don't want to go independent. I look at Norway, the | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
cost of living in Norway at soared at the same population as Scotland, | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
but I would rather be with the United Kingdom. Did you vote for | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
the SNP? Yes, I did. Does that mean you want independence? No. I don't | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
think that would be a good thing for Scotland, no. Why not? I think | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
we need to be united. Stay where we are, keep in close contact to | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
Westminster. But remain semi- independent. Look what happens when | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
you go down the age demographic. What do you do? I'm a lambing | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
shepherd. Does the fact that you voted for the SNP mean you want | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
independence? Yes, I think that is the way forward tore Scotland. | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
-- For Scotland. The debate is no longer about whether independence | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
is feasible. It's about whether it's desirable. For independence no | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
longer means a repudiation of all that is British. It no longer means | :24:42. | :24:48. | |
separation in any meaningful sense and that is the real game changer. | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
Well with us now is the SNP's Joan McAlpine, a member of the Scottish | :24:53. | :25:03. | |
Parliament. Peter Davies a mayor of Doncaster and the Conservative MP, | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
Rory Stewart, the member for Penrith and the borders. If this | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
marriage fails, does it matter? matters very deeply. We'll miss it | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
terribly. It's very easy to imagine you can tear apart, but like any | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
relationship, any intertwined thing, once it's gone, we will miss it and | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
never forgive the governments that tore it apart. What would we lose? | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
It's a mistake to think we lose economics. You can make economic | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
arguments, political arguments. You lose an idea. An idea of union. An | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
idea of what was great about Britain, of England, of Scotland | :25:36. | :25:43. | |
and those are the things that all of us feel. Is there any benefit in | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
this separation to the English? there any benefit to the English? | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
No not that you necessarily care. care very deeply about the English. | :25:53. | :26:00. | |
I'm quite an Anglo-file myself. The English in your own book, the | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
English identity has been rather suppressed by British identity. | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
Whereas Scots had a dual identity through the age of the empire. The | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
English weren't really allowed to express many of their traditions. | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
It would free the English you think, in a way? I think so. Do you think | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
anything would be lost? No, because I think we'd continue to have a | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
strong social union. We would have the Queen as head of state. We | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
would still have a lot of cross- border cooperation. This is part of | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
a process. It's not a divorce. It's in the a break up. It's about | :26:38. | :26:44. | |
Scotland joining in. As an English Democrat, would you worry? Could I | :26:44. | :26:53. | |
be a Scot-ophile? Be whatever you like. Do you care if the Scots | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
decide to go their own way? Not now. If we turn the clock back, I would | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
like to go back to the status quo before the devolution settlement... | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
I thought you were going to the 1700s. No, the devolution affair | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
was a total mistake on the part of the Labour Government. It was done | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
to shore up their own support in Scotland and Wales. They thought | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
they would be in power there forever and a day. Clearly, that's | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
not been the case. The losers in the devolution affair were the | :27:22. | :27:29. | |
English. If I could intervene... got no Parliament. The reason for | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
the Scottish Parliament was because there had been a very, very long | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
campaign within Scotland for a Parliament that allowed a | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
democratic expression for Scotland. I think probably in the end it | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
reflected desires for the Scottish people. I think it would have been | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
dangerous to fight it forever. At the same time, Scotland and England | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
can be independent and confident and Scotland is more independent in | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
the union than it would be. Would you be in favour of further | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
devolution since there seems to still be an appetite for it? Giving | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
more taxation powers is good. But Scotland needs, I'm half Scottish, | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
half English, like many people in this country. It's a reckless and | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
unnecessary thing. People aren't going to stop breeding if the two | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
countries separate. It's perfectly possible. Of course it is. All of | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
this can be done if you want to do it. It's not going to be the cat | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
clix or the end of the world. It would be a crying shame and | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
something we would lose by. What about an English Parliament? | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
ahead. This is about national identity. Why have the English been | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
discriminated against? It's the largest of the four countries and | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
the other three all got their own Assembly or Parliament? You're | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
falling into the trap that the Scottish Nationalists are setting | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
you. They're trying to feel that you're discriminated against. | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
are. Everything they're doing is designed to feel resentful. | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
resentful. You can be confident and proud of being British. I want what | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
they've got. Do you think the English are discriminated against? | :29:05. | :29:11. | |
Absolutely not. The lady in the film was slightly disingenuously | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
from KPMG with her figures. Scotland puts more into the UK... | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
I'm not talking about the economy. I'm talking about the fact the | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
Scots have a Parliament, the Welsh and Northern Irish have an Assembly. | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
The vast majority of Scottish people say they want full economic | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
power, they want job creating power in their Parliament. All that is in | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
London. If the coalition were serious about respect for Scotland, | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
they would give us a Scotland act to allow us the levers over the | :29:43. | :29:51. | |
economy. Do you think, do you feel discriminated against? I've never | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
felt discriminated as English. Supposing that the Scots do decide | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
that they are going to have a referendum on independence, do you | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
think the English should be allowed a voice? I think. So it's natural... | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
They couldn't force the Scots to stay if there were a majority of | :30:06. | :30:16. | |
:30:16. | :30:19. | ||
England who said, we don't want it Sorry, can you repeat the question. | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
If you hear some of the poll results that we talked about in the | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
video, the way that things are going over time. You have got even | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
the amount of English people that are saying Scotland should get on | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
and do their own thing, it is increasing. Whereas you ask the | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
Scots, they are inclined to say "no", independence is maybe a | :30:41. | :30:47. | |
little too far. They vote for the SNP but don't want to be an | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
independent country. Are there Scots here who feel that | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
they should be independent? I don't think that the English should have | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
a say. It is a purely Scottish matter. | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
You don't think they should have a say? Not really. | :31:04. | :31:09. | |
I think it is probably a good thing for Rory and his party. I don't | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
think that life will change too much. I think that the Scots and | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
the English get on well. We eget on well now with the | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
pseudoindependence, so what would change? That point is clearly | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
typical of many English, who are not that fussed about it? It is | :31:27. | :31:33. | |
true that we get on well. It has been a very, very difficult period | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
learning to get on well, we didn't before we had a union. We are in | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
danger of opening up rivalries, crisis of identities that none of | :31:41. | :31:48. | |
us need or want and are not going to enfit us. The British Empire | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
used to have Canada, Australia, Ireland. We have great contacts | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
with them, family ties, social ties, economic ties. | :31:59. | :32:07. | |
You have not been at Murrayfield when they are playing? I come from | :32:07. | :32:13. | |
a Scottish family. I don't think that you speak for | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
Scotland when you say that. You mentioned the monarchy, you | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
can't to keep the Queen? That's correct, yes. | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
In the way that Canada does? Exactly. What about the army? | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
the army it is the army that markets itself, there is a Scottish | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
army. Scotland does not have a great deal of union dividend. | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
Deefence spending is cut by 36%. Would you expect to take control of | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
the Scottish regiments in the army? Yes. | :32:47. | :32:53. | |
They would be e be sent into action by Alex Salmond? Not into legal -- | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
illegal wars. What you deem legal wars, they | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
would be under a separate command? Of course. | :33:01. | :33:08. | |
What about Scottish banks? Will you take those back too? Scottish | :33:08. | :33:14. | |
banks? Yes, the ones bailed out by the British taxpayers! Well, the | :33:14. | :33:21. | |
Scottish banks cost �6 billion to bail out Scottish GDP at that time | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
was �14 of 6 million, so Scotland was able to bail out its own. | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
If you take the English bankers out of the Scottish bank, they would | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
anybody better shape. A cheap point! Now, supposing this | :33:34. | :33:42. | |
happens, as seems probably now, what would be the consequences for | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
England in your ideal word? would get our own Parliament, which | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
we have not had since devolution started. They rule themselves, the | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
Welsh do, the Irish do, we are ruled by Scots, Welsh, Irish and | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
Europeans, the cradle of democracy has lots its democracy in the House | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
of Commons. So we would get the ability to rule ourselves back. I | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
also thing that we would be able to get out of the European Union as | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
most of the support for it comes from the Scots and the Welsh. | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
You, sir? I think that Westminster has got itself into a serious | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
muddle. I think, I would ask you to consider this, Rory, the fact that | :34:25. | :34:31. | |
Scottish MPs can vote on English matters, is clearly completely | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
wrong. Exactly. | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
And the Westminster model. That is the model, as an Australian it | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
seems bizarre and eccentric that the English have allowed that | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
wonderful model of Parliament to be completely... Go on? I think you | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
have a point. There$$NEWLINE There are big problems, but there is a | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
bigger game. What is happening is that we are | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
coming in on ourselves. We are becoming narrow minded. There are | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
big things that the union have given us over 300 years and will | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
continue to do so. England produces the industrial revolution, Scotland | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
the Scottish enlightenment and yes there will be adjustments, this | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
devolution raises lots of issue, but I'm sure in the world we face | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
it will be better to be a bigger, more confident country, not to fall | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
in ourselves. Look at the pros perity index, not | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
only on economy, but well being and health, the countries at the top | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
are Norway, Finland, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand. The | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
supernational states like the UK and the US are far down. The UK is | :35:44. | :35:52. | |
a very unequal country. It has one of the highest levels of unequality | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
in Europe. We have been trying to move away from that. Moving to | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
independence will be allowing us to go further down that road. | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
I want to move on if I may. Politicallentities in the end, | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
although in the beginning are built on a shared sense of purpose and | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
identity, if, Haas been suggested, that the purpose is wobbly, what of | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
the identity north of the border? The nationalist are building a | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
Scottish officialer identity, but have the English a comparable sense | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
to set against it? Fergal Keane is Irish, we asked him to look at the | :36:27. | :36:37. | |
:36:37. | :36:37. | ||
whole question of what being English means now. | :36:37. | :36:45. | |
This is the landscape of the imagined England, the heartland of | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
the Anglo-Saxons. From this land of marsh and wood, came a man we might | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
call the Father of English Nationalism. | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
Hereward the Wake. The celebrated here in Victorian art as the | :36:59. | :37:06. | |
essence of English marshal vigour. Never mind ehe had partly Danish | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
roots. Hereward the Wake harried the Norman conquerers, he struck | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
and then vanished into the Fenland wilderness. Later, generations of | :37:16. | :37:24. | |
writers would myth ol guise him as the symbol of defiance, but it was | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
English pragmatism that triumphed. Accepting Norman rule and | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
ultimately building the world's mightiest empire. A nation founded | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
on the monarchy, the chump and Parliament. In Shakespeare's world, | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
an England never did lie at the proud foot of a conquerer. That | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
stability is really part of the problem for English nationalism. | :37:48. | :37:54. | |
For nationalism to thrive and to become a mass movement it needs an | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
existential threat. The Scots Scots, the Irish and the Welsh had all | :37:59. | :38:05. | |
conquering England as the maligned kol osus against which they found | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
their national identities, but the English have not had a conerr on | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
their own soil in over 1,000 years. Englishness became the dominant | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
identity of the British imperial project. | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
Here in the Fenland town of March, as in so much of the rest of | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
England, English and Britishness are hard to disentangle. | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
We have different sorts of English people talked about in the country | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
from Yorkshire, Wales, with different accents, but really, it | :38:41. | :38:47. | |
is one group of people I'm English, I'm British, I don't care. I'm | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
happy. I always welcomed the concept of | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
Britain with Scotland, Wales and Ireland, but they don't seem to be | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
happy about being a part of the union. That is fine by me. | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
Does it make you resent the Scots? Not at all. As long as they have a | :39:02. | :39:10. | |
passport to come down here for a visit! LAUGHTER! We let ethem in! | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
We're got going to stand for that. You can't push people around like | :39:16. | :39:23. | |
sacks of potatoes. Henry Cornelius's classic, Passport | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
To Pimlico, celebrates an English identity untouched by the | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
insecurities that can afflict the conquered or the colonised. | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
What is the idea of this? But in the age of departing certainties, | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
how should England respond to Scots nationalism? I'm in no doubt that | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
you cannot stand in the way of a distinct people, or a distinct | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
national identity who wish through constitutional change to express | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
that identity. The English have to realise that. | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
The English need to think about the need, the democratic need for an | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
English Parliament. I hope I live and see the day when | :40:05. | :40:12. | |
the flag of St George is flying over the Victoria at Westminster. | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
Throughout modern history, England's political main stream has | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
committed itself to union. Now the task of articulating a | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
definitively English response to the fraying of the union is largely | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
taking place outside of politics. Here at Newcastle, the Scots once | :40:29. | :40:36. | |
laid siege to the city, after taking up arms against the king. | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
Within 50 years of that siege, the two nations were bound together in | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
an act of union which endures still. In many ways this city came to | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
symbolise a British working-class experience shared with men on the | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
collide to the north with ship builders in Belfast, coal miners in | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
Wales. I've come to Newcastle to see if | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
the changes in Scotland might lead to a re-awakening of an English | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
nationalism in those who up until now, were happy to calls themselves | :41:10. | :41:18. | |
British. This region has always had a very | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
delicate relationship with Scotland. In that this region is covered in | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
calfs, built to defend it against Scotland. I'm not sure that people | :41:27. | :41:33. | |
in Northumbria are at a more Northumbrian now because of the | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
existence of skarbl nationalism. I think there is a general English | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
awakenings in the new nationalism of British ness. | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
What does this mean to the people here now? I don't think that it has | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
the intensity of the Welsh, or the Scottish or an Irish identity, but | :41:52. | :41:58. | |
it is about core values that people believe are English. Things like | :41:58. | :42:04. | |
fair play, individualism, about being decent. It is the local or | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
the working-class or ordinary person's view of the values that we | :42:08. | :42:14. | |
see, that all over the world people see as timeless, as being connect | :42:14. | :42:24. | |
the to Britain. As an outsider, I have been struck | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
by the pragmat itch -- pragmatism of English. | :42:29. | :42:36. | |
Like people such as George Orwell, who whom hate had no attraction. | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
Assertism is a more Anglican quality. Ironically, it really | :42:41. | :42:48. | |
characterises what Englishness should be. How-do reenvent that? | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
your congregation, there are those who perceive themselves as proudly | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
British. Do you think that they are reassessing themselves as British? | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
It does make them say, what does it leave for us, who are we? So there | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
is that process. We have seen that, really with efforts to suddenly | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
bring St George's Day back to life and the St George's flag and who | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
owns the flag, there has been a lot of that going on, I think. England | :43:16. | :43:22. | |
till I die! I'm English till I die! This is part of the problem, for | :43:22. | :43:28. | |
what we might call a thinking man's nationalism! The attempt by the | :43:28. | :43:34. | |
far-right to pro Pre-Budget Report -- prooperate Englishness. | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
The signs over that very brutal, rather British assertiveness in the | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
right-wing organisations, something that really scares people, so | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
people are saying we have to claim a better kind of Englishness, | :43:47. | :43:54. | |
reclaim that, but have not yet the answer to what it might mean. | :43:54. | :44:00. | |
But national identity has never been static. How could it be on an | :44:00. | :44:07. | |
island that over centuries absorbed waves of migration? In 40 years 20% | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
of the English population will be made up of ethnic minorities. | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
There was a time when I was in the Midlands, walking past the pub and | :44:16. | :44:25. | |
a series of thugs, basically, swathed in with the George flag | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
started to do seek heil salutes. I was petrified, but even having that | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
experience, I don't think that they have a territorial claim over a | :44:33. | :44:39. | |
national flag, why should they? you had arn ideal of English | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
definition, what would it be? just us. Not them and us. Just us. | :44:44. | :44:54. | |
We need not be apologetic about The Scots aren't about to vanish in | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
a blaze, nor are the English going to succumb the xenophobic | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
nationalism. But the rise of the Scots Nationalist is, at least, | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
nudging the English towards thinking of a -- a world after the | :45:07. | :45:15. | |
union. Nothing less than re-imagining | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
England. Joan McAlpine of the SNP is still | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
here. We're also joined by Owen Jones author of the book Chavs: The | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
Demonisation of the Working Class, Don Letts, the author and film | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
maker who famously introduced the clash to reggae and Michael | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
Portillo, the former Conservative Cabinet minister. | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
What do you think is happening to our sense of identity? I think | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
English initialism in particular is filling a vacuum. There's a crisis | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
of identity in many of our communities. That's to do with | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
class, that idea of being working class in many communities, is a | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
sense that's something you could be proud of. That's come under attack. | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
If we think of industries, you can get Dewey eyed about this, they | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
were often back breaking jobs, there was pride in work. These were | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
the industries which were the backbone of communities. Unions | :46:08. | :46:14. | |
provided a sense of identity. English nationalism has filled the | :46:14. | :46:20. | |
vacuum. You like Englishness don't snu It's worked for me for 55 years. | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
I describe myself as British born black. A term that rolls off the | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
tongue now. Growing up through the 70s that was a very confuegz | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
concept. It waents until the late 80s that being black and British | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
seemed to make some kind of sense. Now in the 21st century you're | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
asking me to decide whether I'm British or English. That's | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
disturbing. I never heard this conversation during more prosperous | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
times. I have to wonder how much is related to the economic climate. | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
may have to do, with respect, your age. It was interesting in the film | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
there, ethnic minority considers himself English. You know, I saw | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
the struggles that my parents' generation went through trying to | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
become angli sized and the soul destroying process it was. Was down | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
to my generation to reclaim a sense of identity and understand what we | :47:17. | :47:24. | |
had to bring to the party, so to speak. You're reassessing | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
everything, aren't you? No, I'm not actually. I think Britishness is | :47:28. | :47:34. | |
and has been for a long time, defined as being anti-fanaticism. | :47:34. | :47:40. | |
It goes back to Elizabeth I, the understanding that fanaticism of | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
Catholics or Protestants would tear the kingdom apart. That is still a | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
characteristic of the British. It is a characteristic shared by | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
Scottish and English people to almost equal degrees. Very strong | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
contributions to Britishness, the enlightenment figures of Scotland, | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
for example. Now, there is a feeling in Scotland that amongst | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
some people they want to distance themselves from England or change | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
their constitutional arrangement. There are some Scots who are anti- | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
English. That doesn't make them non-British. I think the sense of | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
Britishness is still very, very strong. The other characteristic is | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
the sovereignty of the individual and the distrust of the state. | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
don't you like Britishness? didn't say I disliked Britishness. | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
You prefer Scottishness. Britishness is a political | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
construct. I disagree that it's about tolerance. Britishness was | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
first constructed as an emblem of Protestantism. Then it changed | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
again because it's a construct. It changed at the time of empire, it | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
represented empire. For me, Britishness, I don't want to impose | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
identities on anyone else, but for me, it was about the empire and | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
about colonies and about jingoism. Don is perfectly happy with it. | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
am now. But it's been a painful process. It's taken a long time to | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
get here. I can totally see the point that you're making, but I | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
think other people have made the point that it's quite interesting | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
that it's easier for people from a non-white background in Scotland to | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
feel Scottish and Pakistani or Scottish and west Indian than it is | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
for them to say that they're English and Pakistani or English | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
and west Indian. You've gone back to the notion of it being black and | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
white. But it's more complex than it is now. I'm not imposing | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
identity on other people. I can only speak for, for example, in the | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
SNP, we have a lot of members from a Pakistani background. We have | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
members from a Scottish Italian background. They are happy with the | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
dual identity of being Scottish and also the identity of their parents | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
and grandparents' country. thing about Britishness is you can | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
basically define it how you want much that's the problem. One idea | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
of Britishness... That's its strength, surely. One idea is | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
empire, king and empire. You could claim another Britishness of | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
British people throughout the centuries fighting for their rights | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
against absolute monarchy, the chartist, the working class | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
movement, the suffragettes, the NHS, all these things were collective | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
strugzles which people fought for as Scottish, as English and Welsh | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
people. Its plyability is surely its strength. Of course. You could | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
claim another Britishness about those struggles being proud of | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
those fights for democracy. Let's see if anyone here has a clear | :50:37. | :50:44. | |
sense of what Britishness is. Does anybody... Yes, you Sir. | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
Britishness will come of its own again later in this century, it | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
will become the federalism by which each of our individual nations | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
survives. What is it? collectivism, the collective spirit | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
of peoples who are united and working together. What is | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
Britishness? It's aspiration. We're a small country, but we're also a | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
great country. I come from a working class background. I now | :51:12. | :51:19. | |
work in finance. Adam Smith is an inspiration to anybody in finance. | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
People may laugh at that, but you know, innovation, entrepreneurship, | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
technological development, that's what it means to be British. | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
think a main quality of Britishness is a comfortableness with multiple | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
identities. That's a very subtle point. I was | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
going to sate essence of Britishness is, I believe, | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
stability and fair mindedness. As for the previous conversation that | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
we had, I believe that the Scots and the Welsh are more | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
Nationalistic than the English. I think the English are fairly | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
apathetic about nationalism. It's rather odd that we haven't | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
addressed great swathes of recent history. If you accept the point | :52:04. | :52:10. | |
that Britishness is about being anti-fanatical, one of the features | :52:10. | :52:16. | |
of fanaticism has propped up on the European continent, whether it was | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
Napoleon or Hitler, in that respect, there's no difference in the | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
reaction of the Welsh, the Scots or the English. The British reaction | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
to the responsibility of dealing with that has been identical. | :52:28. | :52:34. | |
Britain is not a fair union. It's not an equal union. You're making | :52:34. | :52:39. | |
another point now. It's not. I don't think the point has been made. | :52:39. | :52:45. | |
You've made it many times. can't have an equal union with 10% | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
of the population in Scotland... We're trying to define Britishness. | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
I'm not sure how important it is to go round with a label. I'm half | :52:55. | :53:02. | |
Welsh. I'm watching rugby, if I'm at Lord's I might feel English. If | :53:02. | :53:10. | |
I'm in France I might feel British and if I'm in Vietnam I feel | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
European. If you're watching brave heart you hate the English. What do | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
you make of the way there's an attempt now by the right to create | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
an English identity, which many people in your position and of your | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
persuasion find pretty disturbing. Very much so. There's racial | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
dimensions in particular. A lot of it is to do with insecurities. It's | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
to do with economic insecurities over housing, jobs, which a lot of | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
mainstream politicians have failed to tackle. It's been easy for the | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
far right in particular to say look, people like you aren't getting a | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
house, you're not getting a job, why is it going to this "other", | :53:48. | :53:54. | |
you know back in the day, those were black men, then Asians and | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
today more often than not it's Muslim. That racial aislesed | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
nationalism is very concerning and something which people should be | :54:01. | :54:08. | |
very guarded about. A movement based on hate and intolerance is by | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
its very definition not British. That's the irony. People claiming | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
to be British Nationalists are not British and they demonstrate it by | :54:15. | :54:24. | |
themselves -- their behaviour. do they fly the Union Flag at their | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
rallies. If you have an understanding of Britishness it | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
excludes hate and intolerance. don't think Indians would have said | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
that in the 19th century. But I'm talking about Britain today and I'm | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
talking about the way that has evolved. All countries have evolved. | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
What the United States is now is not what it was between 1860-1865 | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
when it fought a Civil War. What Britain has arrived at today, after | :54:50. | :54:56. | |
centuries of experience,... Perhaps you're speaking as an Englishman, | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
very comfortable with the arrangement. I'm talking as someone | :54:59. | :55:06. | |
who is half Scottish actually. Scottish with Spanish parents. | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
Spanish parent. You're British I'd say aren't you? Who do you think | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
are you? I think I'm British and English, with a Spanish father and | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
Scottish mother. You were trying to make a point. One of the problems | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
with these definition that's we hear are that it's so often defined | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
by what it's not. We're against this or anti- that. If you spoke to | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
these far-right people in the English Defence League and said | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
what do you stand for, not what you stand against, personally I think | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
they'd be hard pushed to answer the question. Were you trying to make a | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
similar point? I think that the point that defining British spbs | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
what it's not is not strong enough. That's part of this problem. You | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
can be a chameleon and say we're going to be about evolved | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
Britishness. But the English need to focus in on... I'm not defining | :56:01. | :56:08. | |
it by what it's not. To be anti- fanatical is to take a strong | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
position. The British position in history of opposing fanaticism | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
around the world is just one of the boldest and most magnificent | :56:18. | :56:27. | |
positions taken. That's a very fanatical position. We had the | :56:27. | :56:33. | |
first great European revolution. We overthrew our monarchy in the 17th | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
century about 150 years before the French. Why did we do that? Because | :56:39. | :56:46. | |
we thought it was fanatical. That's the point. These were radical ideas. | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
What you regard as fanatical, but they were very English. When we | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
thought James II was a Catholic, because he was, we overthrew them | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
both. After Cromwell who was a very fanatical Protestant, after he died | :57:01. | :57:07. | |
we got rid of that. We have always owe polesed fanaticism. Throughout | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
history these radical struggles... One of the first acts of the | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
British state, if you like, was a pogrom in the Highlands of Scotland. | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
We're not going back... You're talking about history. But this is | :57:20. | :57:25. | |
an example of tolerance. I want to look forward. If two nations as | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
close in history and in geography and Scotland and England cannot get | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
along in a single political entity, it makes you ask all sorts of | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
questions about the future of Europe, doesn't it? I've been | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
asking those questions for a number of decades, yeah. We just caught up | :57:43. | :57:49. | |
with you. What do you think? Look, it's very worrying at a time when | :57:49. | :57:55. | |
globalisation is at a greater speed than ever. Nationalism is partly a | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
backlash towards that. I'm northern and proud of that. That doesn't | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
mean I want to break England into ever smaller units. I can deal with | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
the term being British, but there's something worrying about a trend | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
towards defining Englishness that, to me, wreaks of something stuck | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
between hunkering down, an old boys network and running scared and | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
looking for somebody to blame. It's a worrying trend. It seems to me to | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
be a step backwards. Thank you all very much. Now tomorrow morning's | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
front pages. The tabloids do not have any of the Milly Dowler story | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
on the front page. The Sun has news of Ashley and Cheryl Cole | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
apparently about to get married again. | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
A soldier has been killed in Afghanistan in the Mirror. You'll | :58:44. | :58:51. | |
have to pay for your care after you retire on the Daily Mail front page. | :58:51. | :58:56. | |
Ieb profin a Daily Express health care. And Milly Dowler is on the | :58:56. | :59:03. | |
front of the Guardian, the paper which has pursued this campaign | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
pretty relentlessly. In the Times, the main story is about the case | :59:07. | :59:12. | |
for adoption, with photographs of various people who were adopted and | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
the Daily Telegraph has news of the Milly Dowler phone hacking by the | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
News of the World. And the European Central Bank, according to the | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
Financial Times is ready to reject a downgrading of the rating of | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
Greece. That's enough for now. I'm back | :59:28. | :59:38. | |
:59:38. | :00:04. | ||
Hello there. I hope you enjoyed the fine and warm start to the week. | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
The weather is on the change. We will see rain through the rest of | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
this week. For one more day across eastern parts of England, it stays | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
fine and warm before that weather front arrives. Rain pushing into | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
the Midlands through the afternoon. For East Anglia and the south-east, | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
it should be pleasant with sunshine. Temperatures into the mid20s, | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
though rain arrives heading towards evening time. Wetter out west. | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
There will be brightness developing through the afternoon, across | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
south-west England and Wales. The chance of showers pushing in on a | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
gusty wind and temperatures lower than recently. After a wet start | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
across Northern Ireland, we'll see sunshine and heavy showers through | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
the afternoon. Maybe some thunder mixed in too. For Scotland, we'll | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
see patchy rain extending its way west to east during the course of | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
the day. Now then looking further ahead, it's much more unsettled. | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
There will be rain around. Temperatures lower than recently. | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
Held in the midteens across northern areas. Sunshine further | :01:07. | :01:14. | |
south, but the risk of further, heavy rain at times and gusty wind | :01:14. | :01:19. |