25/07/2011 Newsnight

The man who thought he could defend his country's values by murdering

its children is in solitary confinement tonight. The terrorist

wasn't a bearded Islamic fundamentalist, but a clean-cut

young man with fair hair. Steve Rosenberg has been watching as the

people of Norway remember his victims and comfort each other.

His methods have been condemned by the Norwegian authorities and the

public, but how deep is nationalist sentiment here and across Europe.

Newsnight has discovered claim from a member of the English Defence

League, who says Anders Behring Breivik went on an EDL demo only

last year. Their leader, Stephen Lennon is here to explain.

It is said they couldn't agree how to solve a Rubik's Cube, where all

the squares are the same colour, is there any chance of Barack Obama

and Congress solving the American budget crisis. Peter Mandelson

admits the Labour Government got some things wrong. That is not true,

you are exaggerating, as they say, to make a point. REPORTER: I'm

slightly right aren't I? You are only very slightly right. Live

without deviation and repetition, he will tell us what they should do

There were 100,000 or more people on the streets of Oslo this evening,

demonstrating their support for the 76 people who were murdered by a

gunman, who claimed to be defending Europe from cultural Marxism, and

an Islamic takeover. The alleged killer, Anders Behring Breivik, has

been remanded in solitary confinement, while police

investigate his links to far right groups. The central question

remains, was this the action of a solitary deranged individual, or do

his actions reflect a wider unease both in Norway and perhaps beyond,

about immigration and asylum-seeker, which people like Breivik can

exploit. Steve Rosenberg is in Oslo, for Newsnight.

This was the moment that nation stopped to remember its dead. In

Oslo and across Norway, there was one minute of silence, after one

day of terror. Even before he was brought to the courthouse, Anders

Behring Breivik had admitted he carried out the attacks in Oslo and

the youth camp. But he didn't accept he had committed crime. At

the court hearing, which was closed, Anders Behring Breivik said he had

accomplice, two more terror cells, to help him carry out his plan.

TRANSLATION: Anders Behring Breivik, born on February 14th 1979, may be

held in custody until it is decided otherwise by the prosecution and

the court, but not on September 26th 2011. He will have ban on

letters, visits and media throughout the whole custody period,

as well as complete isolation until August 22nd 2011. If there were

acomplises, were they in the UK? In his 1500-page manifesto, which

Breivik had posted on-line, he kwhraimed claimed to have contact

with the far right in Britain. There is a concern, but there are

no specific information that is it is orderated. It looks like he's

more hoping for some kind of copy cat attack. That he's the avant

garde of the moment, he's showing the way, and hoping others will

follow. This is the moment Norwegian police headed to the

island, an hour after the shooting began.

Many in Norway assumed their country was being attacked by

Islamic terrorists. But this wasn't the work of Al-Qaeda, it was a

Norwegian extremist, who committed mass murder. Cold blooded killing

by man who called himself a patriot. So had Norway underestimated the

threat from home-grown terrorism? I don't think it has been

overlooked, actually, back in the 1980s. We had some isolated

environments of far right extremism, and they were taken quite seriously

in the sense that the police focused on them, and the school

system focused on them. And society took some broad concerted efforts

to reduce their impact, which I think has been successful. We have

much less of it in our political culture than relatively similar

countries. But today, the police Security Service revealed it had

flagged Breivik in March, when he had purchased chemicals from a

Polish business. They said it wasn't significant enough to pursue.

Part of the problem of identifying potential threats is the way the

far right operates has changed. During the last few years we have

seen the emergence of an anti-Islam movement, which has a very

different character. They are not street orientated, they are not

organisations who gather in meetings and demonstrations or

anything like that, they mainly sit behind computers and write

statement ones blogs and read letters, and are quite advise

invisible. Through mass murder the gunman said

he wanted to spark a revolution across Europe, to create a new

society. So far he hasn't succeeded. Following the massacre, Norway is

united in grief and disbelief at what happened. Anders Behring

Breivik sees himself as a crusader against Islam, against immigration,

against multiculturalism, the very foundation of modern European

society. And while the Norwegian authorities and the public condemn

his methods and his extreme message, nationalist sentiment has taken

route here. This is a part of Oslo that has seen a huge influx of

immigrants over the last 20 years. Most of the people here have come

from Somalia, Pakistan and Iraq. The Norwegian Progress Party wants

curbs on immigration, their growing popularity match that is of other

political forces across Scandinavia. Like the Swedish Democrats, the

Danish People's Party, and the True Finns. In Norway the scale of

immigration has transformed the country. Barring a minority in the

far north, this country was Lily white as late as in the late 1960s.

I myself was born in 1959, I grew up in Oslo, I was 17 years old

before I met a person of colour that I could have a conversation

with in Norwegian. It is a very different situation to what you

have in post-colonial Britain. In the course of my adult lifetime

this has changed enormously. These are people who are often being

urbanised as they also become Norwegianised. So this has caused a

number of social problems. This woman was born in Norway, her

family is originally from Pakistan. Last Friday, when many Norwegians

thought Islamic terrorists were behind the attacks, her relatives

received abuse. They said "get out of here", they said it to small

children. I don't know, it was a horrible reaction. We live in

Norway, and we are as much Norwegian and we feel the same

feelings. But tonight, tens of thousands

gathered in the centre of Oslo, from different communities and

different faiths. After last week's bloodshed, it showed a

determination not to let cultural differences divide their country.

Steve Rosenberg joins us from Oslo now.

What's the mood there tonight? Standing here, by this huge carpet

of flowers, and candle, by the Cathedral, I have been watching the

stream of people coming here to pay their respects, and the one thing

that has struck me, more than anything, is, that represented here

is this whole spectrum of Norwegian society, different races, different

religions, native Norwegian, the immigrant community. Everyone is

united in grief, united in this tragedy. Multicull curlism is now,

of course, a - multiculturalism, is now, of course a controversial

thing across Europe, many leaders claiming that multiculturalism has

failed. And we seem to have lost the link there, unfortunately.

David Cameron said today that the Government here was taking

extremely seriously those claims that Anders Behring Breivik had

links to far right groups in this country. The organisation whose

name has been most mentioned is the English Defence League. They say

they have no official contact with them. A claim I will be examining

with their leader in a moment. First, though, we have been

investigating. So, what are the English

connections? As investigators delve into Anders Behring Breivik's past,

and the causes for concern, the concern is how close to home will

the trail go. 14 right-wing extremists are already in prison in

England for offences. The Home Office is so concerned, about 70

more, who have been accessing terror websites, and threatening

mass violence, it has had to intervene.

Particular concerns have been raised about a connection with the

English Defence League, an anti- Muslim street movement involved in

violent clashes with anti-fascists and Muslims. I have been following

the EDL for Newsnight for over a year, including travelling to

Amsterdam where they met up with their Norwegian counterparts, the

NDL. As you see today the English Defence League are here today, we

are not hooligans, we are normal people, we have come here today to

have our voices heard. The anti- fascist group Searchlight have been

looking at the co-operation. Here he is under the name Crusader, he

was in contact with EDL people in March before going underground.

This posting on the 9th of March, he's congratulating the EDL saying

they are a blessing to awful Europe, telling them to keep up the good

work, - all of Europe, telling them to keep up the good work, and

saying they share a common cause. Here he criticises the

establishment in Norway, the media, but he particularly targets out the

Norwegian Labour Party. But, then he says, in a slightly airy way, he

says he thinks there will be an awakening, at least he hopes so.

Are you worried members of the EDL could be a serious threat? Yes I am.

Partly they are driven by the same propaganda, and ideology, but also,

within it, there are people who are quite dangerous, advocating the use

of weapons and burning down of mosques. We have done a cursory

look on the Internet, and found EDL supporters posing with guns. It is

just an indication of some of the people who are involved in it.

Daryl Hobson is an EDL member and claims that Breivik Marched with

the EDL before. He has been arrested at several demonstration,

including alongside EDL leader, Stephen Lennon, on remembrance day

last year. Jonathan Birdwell from the think-tank, Demos, is

undertaking a huge studio of the EDL and other far right movements

in Europe. If there is evidence he has met with those close to the

leadership of the EDL, that is incredibly worrying. In terms of

the actions of those individuals and putting cross hires on people

like Mr Chouddree. Before you would like to say it is in bad taste or

driven by bravado. But in fight of the Anders Behring Breivik attack,

we have to give more serious - in the light of the Anders Behring

Breivik attack we have to give more serious attention to these groups

and on the Internet. David Cameron today said the links will not be

underestimated. We take those claims extremely seriously we will

look at all the aspects of those claims and we will work very

closely with the Norwegians, in terms of the police relationship,

in terms of the security relationship, and the very strong

political relationship I have with Jens Stoltenberg. We will help them

in every day we can. Anders Behring Breivik boasted in his manifesto

about having more than 600 EDL members as Facebook friends. Now

the social networking site is no science, but in a world where this

rhetoric lives and grows on-line, how much these things are feeding

one another is cause for alarm. We are joined now by the leader of

the English Defence League, Stephen Lennon, who also goes by the name,

Robinson. Did you ever meet Anders Behring Breivik? I never. Can I

express our deep sympathy for the victims and their families and the

people of Norway. How was this man allowed on your demonstrations?

don't believe he has. We should stop speculating and look at the

facts. I'm looking at evidence from Daryl Hobson, I thought you were

arrested with him? There were other people arrested on that day, I was

arrested on that day. You were arrested at the time? No, on the

same day. Page 148 of his desor e he said we are an anti-Nazi

organisation, we can't coincide with this organisation because our

ideologies are so far apart. He has stated that. Mr Hobson has claimed?

Who is he, he's a random member out of 100,000 members. I thought,

first of all, we don't know exactly? 100,000 supporters on the

Internet, he's one of them. More to the point this man. Let's not

listen to what Daryl Hobson said, let's listen to the psychopath's

manifesto says, he says we have non-white members and he is

ideolgically apart from us, he calls us fools. The media are not

reporting it, we encourage integration. He has 600 EDL

friends? If you look at mismanifesto, not speculation, on

page 148, I can read them, if you want. Just tell me, out of his

manifesto, how much of it do you disagree with, 1500 pages? After

7/7 would you say this to a Muslim leader do they share the same parts

of ideology. We believe Islam is a threat. Do we want to stop this

happening on British soil or play the blame game. I'm trying to

establish facts about the connections between your

organisation and his? The EDL. can quote endlessly? This is his

manifesto, this is from the man himself. The EDL harshly condemns a

movement that uses terror as a tool, such as mine, that is why we view

the EDL as fools, they believe the democratic system can solve the

problems, they have non-European members. This is what the man said.

You have also read his listing on one of your forums, "hello to all

you good Englishmen and women, just wanted to say you are a blessing to

all in Europe". This was before his manifesto was released. It was

almost the last thing he published before he disappeared to make his

bombs? You have seen his manifesto that he released. Do we want to

learn from this, this man was a sick individual, you can never use

terror tactics like him. There is an undercurrent of anger, these are

the facts people should address, there is an undercurrent of anger

across the whole of Europe and Britain. If you don't address the

issue and sweep it under the carpet. No-one is sweeping it under the

carpet, I'm trying to establish the connection between you and him?

When you agree to peacefully protest, we do. That we get

condemned for trying to peacefully protest. We can condemn extremism

and violence, we are what you would want as a grassroot organisation to

the serious threat. You are with Alan Lake one of your founders?

is not my mate or a founder. He is a funder? He is not faunder, he has

never given a penny to the English Defence League. He has written

speeches for you hasn't he? facts, not speculation. Do you know

him? I do know him. Do you believe there are dormant racists. Do you

agree with him when he says this was logical and inevitable, that is

very close to what you are saying? I am disgusted and sickened by what

this man done, and every member of the EDL are disgusted, there are

dormants racists to be completely racist against Muslims, and sweep

the phenomenon of the English Defence League and there are

British people gravely concerned, the threat of Islam is having on

our nation. And if you want to solve these problems, you won't

solve them by dismissing people as racists and putting it out they are

there they are lunatic, all people who have concerns against Islam. In

every country, 24% of Norwegians voted for an anti-Islamic

organisation. There needs a platform given to people to have

their concerns heard. This is a peaceful process, you take the

democratic right away from those people, God knows what they will do.

Your website which has people in the cross hairs of telescopic

sights. Your website has pictures of Islamic fundamentalists, in the

cross hairs of rifle sights? If you refer back to Facebook where anyone

can put anything on, that is not evidence against our organisation.

You won't find it on our website, people can check the organisation

out, we stand against extremism and contem all acts of violence. But

you have to - condemn all acts of violence. But you have to give

people who are concerned about Islam an opportunity to have a

voice, rather than trying to destroy the voice. No-one denies

there is lots of anxiety? About Islam. Tremendous anxieties.

soon as you say it you are racist. I'm intrigued to know what it is in

his 1500-page manifesto you disagree with? To be honest I

disagree with murder, I share the same fact that I believe Islam is a

threat, but we completely condemn any acts of violence against

innocent people. What has happened over there is horrific and will be

remembered for the rest of eternity as a disgusting deranged attack.

That is what it is, we condemn it and are against it, you can't brush

off millions of people who have concerns against Islam as lunatics,

when there is serious concerns, we need to have our voices heard. If

you try to take the platform of democratic protest. I'm banned for

protesting, what about my human rights, human rights are only there

for the Muslim community in this country. We are seeing many of our

members given ten-year ASBOs for demonstrating. When they are

concerned about Islam, they are not allowed to have a demonstration now,

this is land of democracy, unless you want to talk about Islam, then

it is not. These are genuine concerns, these at this tanks are

not doing their jobs, because all the Government organisations don't

have a representative from the working-class in this country, that

member is me, we are against extreme violence, God for bid this

ever happens on British soil, it is a time coming. You are probably

five or ten years away. Thank you very much. That sounds almost like

a threat? It is not a threat. think something like this could

happen in a few years time? believe it could, it is not a

threat, it is a wake up call to say we don't want it to happen, let's

address the problem. It won't be solved by keep building more

mosques and Islamic immigration, and not listening to people. Thank

you very much. Can it really be true that the

world's biggest economy is about to default on its debt? Already the

possibility of such an unthinkable thing happening has caused the most

senior officials in the US Treasury and Federal Reserve to warn of both

catastrophy and calamity. However the American constitution requires

the agreement of the President and Congress, as things stand there is

no agreement. They have until next Tuesday to pass the deal. President

Obama and the Republican leadership in Congress are still locked in mu

actual recrimination, but the clock is blrb mutual ce cim nation, but

the clock is ticking - mutual recriminations, but the clock is

ticking. Why does this matter to us? The US spends thrillions of

dollars every year, it is the biggest purchasing nation.

Thousands of British companies sell directly other indirectly to the US

F it wakes up on Monday and decides it can't pay its Wills it goes

through all of that. - bills. It goes through all of that. There is

the bond market also. As we use the dollar as a reserve currency

globally, banks use IOUs, issued by the US Government as a currency

between banks. If they default, those IOUs go from being gold

plated, to you will always get your money back to default status, where

there is no guarantee to get any of your money back. The banks either

have to ignore the rules and the facts and carry on as normal, or

they stop lending to each other, and balm, the world is in a second

credit crunch. Which of the sides is right on that, the President and

the associated position of the Democrats or Republicans on Capitol

Hill, who is right? There is one fact you can't deny it is the size

of the debt. How it got to $14 trillion, under Bush it creeps up,

but under President Obama it rockets. He is fighting two wars,

he is spending his way out of recession with a fiscal stimlau, he

has kept the tax cuts that - stimulus, he kept the tax cuts that

Bush started. You can't do that. If the economy was growing we wouldn't

have the debate. Many economists say the stimulus hasn't worked, the

only way out of recession is to cut the deficit, just as it is a

completely respectable position to have here, not a called, as Stephen

McCabe, right-wing nuter position. Many economists believe the only

way out for the US is to cut its deficit. If that right-wing

Republican opposition believes that it is the last chance to cut the

deficit, they will fight to the very last minute. We are joined

from capitol hill by Earl Blumenauer, a Democrat member of

the budget committee, and a Republican member of the House

Financial Services Committee. When you look at the damage this is

already doing to your country, it is a very dangerous game that is

being played, isn't it? Well, but also think of the flip side of that.

If you were to look at the Moody's and SNP documents we got a few

months ago, they made it very clear if we do not demonstrate we are

bending our debt curve we will head towards a downgrade. There will

start being a premium on our debt. We are that that - in that

juxtaposition where it is demonstrating a credible plan to

deal with the sizing of the debt. Earl Blumenauer you can't carry on

spending like a drunkle sailor, can you? Nobody is suggesting that. You

referenced at the top that there are several things in play on top

of that, not two unfunded war, but the another collapse of the economy.

Bear in mind the economic stimulus was 40% additional tax cuts over

and above the Bush tax cuts. But the issue here is, I think, more

fundamental, even my Republican friend's budget will require $8

trillion of additional borrowing. How you do this is get serious

about raising revenue, about changing spending patterns to

reduce spending, but don't play chicken with the debt ceiling. We

are going to pay our debts, hopefully we don't have to be

punished by international markets to force us to do that. The most

direct thing we should do is about be the business, with dealing with

what all the experts agree, needs to be a balanced approach, which

most of the American public agrees needs to be balanced. Which is some

revenue, some programme cuts, and changing how we do business. Right,

you have used the expression playing chicken, in a sense

everyone is playing chicken here, is there going to be a deal?

there going to be a deal? There will be something that will happen,

probably before the August deadline, I suspect given the lateness of the

hour and the vast differences in opinions that it will be more of a

short-term activity. How do you see it, do you think there will be a

deal? I would prefer the use of the word "a plan", I have to agree with

the Congressman, we may end up with a short-term deal. There is one

point, I think the Congressman was touching on it. We have quite

adequate cashflows to cover our coupons, our bonded indebtedness,

anyone who uses the word "default", it is horribly unfair and

inaccurate. What is a more interesting discussion is the 40%

of federal spending in the United States, that is financed through

borrowing. That is really the debate you are seeing, is how long

is that capable of being covered, and if we don't demonstrate a

bending of that curve, will we be punished by the rating agencies, no

matter what the deal looks like. respectfully disagree. There will

be efforts to try to make fundamental changes in terms of how

we do business. But the notion that some how we have enough money to

satisfy all our obligations without adjusting the debt ceiling in the

course of the next week, is rejected by former Republican

secretaries of the Treasury, by independent analysts, you may

reward Chinese investors and maybe punish British contractors to the

American Government. But you don't have enough money to do it all. If

you don't do all of it, on schedule, then you are raising a real

question about what the Federal Government's reliability going

forward. I don't think anybody wants that. And you were talking

about this actually earlier, is the portion of US contracts that there

would not be cashflow to pay. Once again, you can't use the language

of default on bonds, which cause that is a function of coupons, and

we see if you even look at our bond futures as of 20 minutes ago, they

are still flat, we are still sitting right around the 3% on the

ten. So there is so much liquidity in the US debt, it is a so much

more interesting and difficult discussion to talk about the 40% we

finance through borrowing, that is the honest discussion there. What

Dave and his colleagues would do, ironically is give to the President

of the United States and the secretary of the Treasury the

discretion to decide which they are going to do. Are they going to

honour our...That Is technically wrong, I'm one of the spopbs sors

of the bills that would step up and priorityways that debt. No bill has

passed - prioritise that debt. No bill was passed. And you would give

the President the choice to make that decision. As the law is in

existence today. It won't be next week. What is that extraordinary

green bicycle on your lapel? Quickly. I'm bike partisan, this is

the congression bike caucus membership. Which is buy partisan

caucus. Labour MPs had a slight spring in

their steps as they set, or at least weren't as dejected as they

had been before the phone hacking scandal on which their party has

made much of the running. The big question to which they will be

returning later in the week is what will it make for the party to be

re-electable. We start with the man who put the "new "into new Labour.

Peter Mandelson, he's conducting a - an investigation into

globalisation for the IPPR think- tank. And along the way he's

prepared to admit there are some things his party got wrong.

Paul Mason reports. It's 8.00am, and Lord Mandelson is

on a journey, he's headed for the north-east of England. Mission, to

resell the idea of globalisation to Labour's voting base. At the heart

of the problem is what happened to manufacturing. During 13 years of a

Labour Government, manufacturing fell from 18% of GDP to just under

1%. And though Labour created three million jobs, 1.3 manufacturing

jobs were lost. In the 1980s the Government actually said, the Prime

Minister actually said, and the entire Government machine was

geared to the belief that we in Britain could no longer be an

engineering, manufacturing, advanced technology economy. Every

Government policy heaped prejudice and obstacle and further barrier

against those non-financial sector parts of our economy. And we, hold

on, and when we, me, us, we came in 1997, we continued that too far,

too much. So there is a bit of a mea culpa going on here on

industrial policy for Labour. At the port of Tyne, cars build at

the Nissan Sunderland plant are set for export, for Asia and the Middle

East, not just Europe. Labour sees Nissan as a success

story, the dying Brown Government persuaded the Japanese giant to

choose Britain as the site for its new electric car engines. Why do

they want to bring them all the way from here? Because we are

competitive. But he's all too well aware that other European

Governments do for more their own industrial base, than Labour did in

office. And there are calls for more protectionism within his own

party. Out there, in Europe, you are up against a bunch of

protectionists, what can you do about it? That is no not true, you

are exaggerating, as they say to make a point. I am slightly right,

aren't I? Only very slightly right. But we have to watch that.

Newcastle City Council, now back under Labour control, Lord

Mandelson meets local business people, unions and the council

leader. You seem to be full of vim and vigour. We will come back in a

year's time. They will look like you! I don't quite know what you

mean by that! None of these people see globalisation as a threat, it

is just after 13 years of a Labour Government and one of coalition,

they worry the skills are just not there to drive an industrial

Rennaissance. We have to decline people entering what you would call

core stem subjects into the FE sector, that was after national

2001-2006, there was a 50% decline. We have fallen off a cliff and kept

falling. It would be a priority for you all to go into the schools and

take this message. You will find the people who run the schools very,

very reluctant to start encouraging pupils in one vocational direction

as opposed to another. So what did you make of that?

tell you what I made of it, I made of it that there is a very, very

strong enterprise base to the north-east economy. That it is, it

has changed and is still changing. There is a nightmare, isn't there,

for Labour, that is the coalition's the first Government that has

really spelt out the country needs to rebalance, it is a forced

rebalancing, driven by fiscal policy. What if it works, what if

it works where your approach didn't? I would be absolutely

delighted. To see a more modern economy, manufacturing advanced

manufacturing, backed and becoming more successful. I would be very

happy to see a more thriving private sector, business enterprise

sector in this country. They did it by cutting back the state, they are

cutting back the state, you didn't? That is the point I'm making,

cutting back the state is not in itself a solution, when you are

cutting back the essential state support for business and new

enterprise, new sectors and new markets. At an FE college in

Hartlepool, his old constituency, Lord Mandelson south-east sees the

entire debate between Labour's support base between the' present

tiss. One thinks all the jobs - apprentice, one thinks all the jobs

are going to foreigner its, the other one has no problem.

factory where you I work people from Germany, Japan, Brazil, just

an engineer coming from Brazil to help us with the work, there is

people from all over the world. Hartlepool today is still a town of

high unemployment, still suffering from the deindustrialisation of the

past 30 years. How far does mea culpa translate into English? You

don't feel like saying to them, implicitly, sorry, we didn't have

an industrial policy for all those years, sorry we did tell you that

wealth would trickle doin and it hasn't. You don't - trickle down

and it hasn't. You don't feel like apologising for what Labour did in

office? What people felt more at the end of our time in Government,

than they did at the beginning s first they had a Government that

cared about them, secondly, a Government prepared to invest in

them and their town, and thirdly, people prepared to plug them into a

different, changing economy here in the north-east and in the country

as a whole, and prepared to put ourselves out to get them sof

welfare into work, reskilled, available to do the jobs, more

confident to take the opportunities for the jobs to be created. There

are a lot of people still on welfare in the north-east? And few

people than if they didn't have Labour Government in power for 13

years. That is where Labour is stuck for

now, somewhere between defending its record in office and moving on.

Lord Mandelson is here now. When exactly did you realise you

had been too enthralled to the market? My experience in Europe,

when I went off to be Trade Commissioner, and I saw European

continental prakti, but I also travelled around the world. -

practice, but I also travelled around the world. There was no

continent I didn't visit. I saw in all those countries, particularly

those nearest to home, a much more strategic, smarter, more activist

role for Government acting with markets and with the private sector.

Governments who looked after their own people as opposed to what went

on here? It was not what the Labour Government was wrong, what we did

was right, but ultimately we didn't do enough. Manufacturing output

fell faster when you were in office than it did under Margaret

Thatcher? We also had the longest sustained period of economic growth

in this country under a Labour Government than we have seen since

the war. The reason. You know where we are now as a consequence? That

has other causes. But what we got right was the huge investment in

the supply side of the economy, and skills and science, and

infrastructure, we were right to acouldn't a pro-enterprise approach

to - encourage a pro-enterprise approach to business. We were right

to maintain flexibility and competitiveness of labour, product

and capital markets. Where we didn't do enough, however, was in

acting with the private sector, with markets, to give a lift, to

give a particular help to particular sectors, technologies,

growing markets, where our future jobs were going to be created. We

didn't do enough. Do you think you were also too enthralled to the

banks? No, I don't think we were enthrafld to the banks. I think

what we - enthrafled to the banks. What we had inherited was a

throwing financial services sector, that was generating a colossal

amount of wealth, revenue and employment in our economy. What I

do, however, think, is we became overexposed to the financial sector.

That meant when it went wrong, our exposure, and therefore the

consequences for our economy, was much greater than those that had

less exposure to the financial sector. Do you also accept that you

failed in education, in terms of turning out people who were fit for

the jobs that might become available? That was the evidence we

saw in the film, surely? That was not the evidence you saw on the

film. What we did. I thought that was what the business leaders were

telling you? No, what they were saying is there was an insufficient

bias in favour of science, technology, engineering and

mathematics graduates coming from the further and higher education

sector. It doesn't mean to say we failed in education. You failed in

education to meet the needs of industry? I don't think that is

true. Not in the basics. But I do think that part of the bias that

had grown up in our country, against manufacturing, against

engineering, against science, was not sufficiently turned round

during our period in Government. We expanded higheredcation, the -

education, the quality of it, the volume of people going through

higher education all expanded. I'm afraid we did, insufficient, in my

view, to live down and reverse that historic prejudice against science

and engineering andatics, that had grown in our - and mathematics,

that had grown in our country during the 1980s. When you hear

that young man speaking how he has Chinese, Brazilians, people from

all over Europe, coming to take jobs. And you contrast it with

Gordon Brown's talk about British jobs for British workers, something

went certificate yuesly awry? seriously awry? We went round the

table and I asked all the young people about global yoisation,

about us having - globalisation, about us having to face competition

from the major economies, only one exception said they wanted to

travel and could see opportunities for employment, and us working

together with these economies, to earn our living in the global

economy in the future. I was very encouraged by that, it is a truth.

We are not going to earn our living during the course of this century,

by running away from the global economy, and pretending that

globalisation doesn't exist. Has Ed Miliband learned the lessons you

have learned? I think he has, during the two years we were

working together, when I came back to Government, he was energy and

climate change secretary, I was the Business Innovation and Skills

Secretary. We worked very closely together, in delivering an

industrial strategy to bring about a low carbon transition in this

country. Not just the importing of energy and manufactureed goods from

abroad, but making them in this country. That required certain

heavy lifting, certain pump priming, certain strategic interventions

from the Government, which he and I were prepared to deliver, the sort

of industrial activism, I think and I accept now we should have

operated more on in our time in Government. Has he yet found what

you failed to detect in the early days of his campaign, which was a

substitute for new Labour? I don't think he has, no. It would not

appear that he has a found of - a substitute of new Labour. We know

new Labour is buried. We don't know what will take its place. That I'm

sure will emerge during the course of the coming year. He has had a

good run on the hacking story, hasn't he? There are two

observations I would make about the state of the party under Ed, one

internal and unextrpbl, the internal one is we haven't -

external, the internal one is we haven't fallen apart in disunity

and acrimony as we have before in opposition. The courage and

leadership he showed over News International, and Murdoch, has

earned him a hearing in the country. He has made his mark, now he has to

say things which are even more of interest to people, on the standard

policy areas which concern people, the economy, the future of the

welfare state, public services, and taxation.

And on the hacking story, I mean in the unlikely event your diary was

empty this weekend and the Murdochs invited you to a party, would you

go? I won't actually be in the country next weekend. If your diary

were empty, is my question? If my diary was empty would I go to a

party with Rupert Murdoch, I think on balance, the answer to that is,

no. But you, of course, were at Elizabeth Murdochs, just a couple

of days before the Milly Dowler revelations? I was at a party of

Elizabeth and her husband, and I certainly wouldn't turn my back on

any friend I have. Whichever family they belong to. What I did not do,

though, during the last 15 and 20 years, was indulge News

International and the Murdochs, I did not court the Murdochs, and I

have very strong particular personal reasons for not having

done that. Do you think they have had a bad influence on this

country? I think that their power has been too great, I think it has

been insufficiently challenged by successive Governments, I think

they have been courted far too actively by politicians, and I'm

glad that ...Including You? Not me. Including the Labour Party under

your leadership? Certain lie by my party, that will not - certainly by

my party, that will not be the case in the future. We will talk more

about Labour's time in office and what they need to claim back office

on Wednesday, as we hear views on what they got wrong when it comes

to the welfare state. That is quite to the welfare state. That is quite

We have a bit of a mixture again tomorrow, varying amounts of

sunshine, starting off cloudy, I suspect, a bit of rain and drizzle

here and there. No great amounts, that will fade away. Eastern areas

of the UK will stay cloudy. Further west sunshine coming through. Much

brighter for North West England compared with north-east England.

Cool, cloudy weather right the way down the eastern side of England. A

cooler, cloudier day in the south- east of England than today, dry by

the afternoon. There will be a bit more sunshine, watch out for misty

low cloud around some of the coasts of Cornwall, for Devon, the West

Country, sunshine around here. More sunshine than in Wales, should be

dry in the afternoon, temperatures hitting 23 degrees along the south

coast. For Northern Ireland the south west will be cloudy, the

north-east will be sunny, a warmer sunnier day in Antrim and Down than

today. The west of Scotland nice in terms of sunshine, the east not as