08/08/2011 Newsnight

Tonight, capital in chaos, as Tonight, capital in chaos, as

riots, looting, fires and vandalism spread across large parts of London.

The trouble started in Hackney this afternoon and spread to South

London, cars, houses and businesses have been set ablaze, the

have been attacked. The Prime Minister is tonight flying home

holiday to deal with the crisis. Tottenham riots have spread. This is

Hackney in East London, where riot police have closed down the entire

area after looters organising through social networks went on the

rampage. As the trouble spreads beyond London, to Birmingham

tonight, can the government and police get a grip? It's just like,

what's going to happen in England now, because of cuts, are people's

homes going to be burned and suddenly be made homeless?

think so. Why aren't we protected? Tonight, we'll discuss why this

mayhem is happening, why it's spreading and whether there are any

lessons to be learned from the inner city riots of the 1980s. Also, can

the world avoid a double dip recession? We have the latest on the

stuttering economy. Good evening, it's been another

night of serious disturbances streets of London, in parts of the

capital, the mob simply rules. The damage to property is already well

into millions of pounds, ahead of the London Olympics,

there's also damage to the capital's reputation and to that. Metropolitan

Police, and big questions Cameron about how the government

dealing with the rioting. Since trouble started with a peaceful

protest in Tottenham on Saturday, has spread to London districts as

far apart as Enfield, Walthamstow, Oxford Street, Brixton and

Harlesden, but in Hackney there was the worst of today's violence and

looting, by the end of the afternoon, there was trouble in

Lewisham and Peckham where cars were set ablaze and another fire in

Croydon. As the evening progressed, it was confirmed there had been

disturbances in Birmingham city centre. The Prime Minister is

cutting short his holiday and will chair a crisis meeting tomorrow,

while politicians and community leaders have been scratching around

for reasons, some speak of social dislocation, but others say this is

simply thieving and wrecking. We begin with the latest from Philippa,

we can see some pictures live from that fire in Croydon, quite

extraordinary blaze, but what has been happening in Hackney where

are? Gavin, after an hour of quiet,

following several hours of stand-off between riot police and Reuters, in

the last five - rioters, we have had five van loads of police, we

understand they are making arrests now, pulling people out of a house,

so not quiet yet on the streets of Hackney and the police helicopter

has just gone up again as well. It's not across London, it's not

London-wide, but in pockets of London, there is still trouble

tonight, that big fire in Croydon raging in a furniture White House,

that's one of the - furniture warehouse, that's one of the most

dramatic events of the cast couple of hours. We understand there is

still trouble in Tottenham, Peckham, around Clapham Junction, in

Lewisham. Police very much here in massive numbers trying to

batten down the hatches. You witnessed some of the trouble

up close yourself, I think? Yes, I spent about three hours earlier this

evening in a couple of streets here from where we are now at

Hackney police station, and it was in microcosm what's happening across

a lot of London, one long narrow street with rioters at one end and

riot police at the other. We saw the tactics with the groups of youths,

you could see them pulling T-shirts across their faces, smashing bottles

to get ready, and smashing bricks on the pavement to they had manageable

ammunition, setting cars and wheelie bins on fire. When we went behind

police station lines, you could they were determined to control the

situation by having the advantage of numbers, so maybe four dozen rioters

but then there would have been riot police officers, dogs and

mounted policemen, and for a while they pushed back and back the

rioters and I have to say, as the riot police then pulled out of that

street, I was talking to Diane Abbott, the local MP, and I could

see over her shoulder looters western union as a car was on

next to them. It's been surreal. Thanks for that. We'll be having

live updates throughout the programme. Newsnight's Liz McKean

has spent the day on the streets of London trying to figure out what if

anything beyond criminality really lies behind the rioting. Here is

here report. Rush hour in our capital city,

traffic in Hackney is gridlocked, but not for the usual reasons. Gangs

of youths are on the loose, attacking this police car.

then chased away, this was one of numerous outbreaks of violence. At

the same time, this was the scene in the borough of Peckham, more gangs,

more fires, all in broad daylight. It wasn't just property at risk, in

Lewisham, people flee their homes, clam bettering over roof -

clambering over roofs, taking with them whatever they can hold. Back in

Hackney, police set up roadblocks to try to contain the rioters. It might

be rush hour, but the whole area has been shut down, all the businesses

have closed early, police have sealed every entrance and exit

Mare Street. A short time ago, the rioters were pushed down here,

can see glass and debris on the road. They have been pushed right

back, just over there. They swept through so fast, some people could

only look on. Once again, JD Sports was a target for the looters. This

chemist was also hit. I met the pharmacist, still appalled at

attempt to wreck his livelihood. was across the road when they pulled

the shutters, they went in several times. I pleaded with them, I said

that's my life, it's all I have in this world, this is my - you know,

yes. Did they listen to you? They listened to me, but the most

disappointing thing about it, the police were only about six yards

away, what is it - Could they what was happening? Yes, so the

police were more scared of them than I was. Witnesses described large

groups of mixed race youths, this was no spontaneous eruption of

fury. This shopkeeper had been warned of trouble ahead, her

customers told her, and she had time to shut up shop. It was

in Enfield, we would hear it was happening in palmers Green, everyone

knows, they are telling each other where it's going to happen. They are

communicating between each other and they're just saying, look, this

where it's going to be next. Obviously the youths are deciding

where they're going to hit next. Were you prepared? Did you

was coming? * yes, we had customers coming in and telling us,

you better put the shutters down, because they're coming. Social

media sites are streaming instant information for good and ill.

Communities are warning each other of trouble, but rumours can quickly

spread. The messaging service of blackberry phones has been commonly

used by those intent on disorder, because it's private, keeping plans

off the police radar. Today, the company said it would help with the

rapidly expanding investigation. At Tottenham, where the trouble began

on Saturday, the high road remained closed, you have to go behind it to

see the extent of the damage, the fires are barely out. This film from

a mobile phone was recorded by terrified residents, furious at

those responsible, but unhappy with the police response. Everyone

just doing their own was no one there to stop anything.

What do you make of that? I think it's very wrong. What I'm seeing

last night, all the police was in Enfield and no one was down here on

Saturday night to help anyone here. It's unbelievable. You

expect that to happen in this little community, it's horrible. The

people who have lost most are those burnt out of their homes, with

absolutely nothing, they have here to the council for help. 24

man, who didn't want his face filmed, escaped from his flat

his pregnant wife and baby daughter. I feel helpless, I had everything I

want in my life, I never been on benefits, now I am being pushed on

to them. I am not in the right of mind to go back to work, knowing

that my baby hasn't got food to eat, nothing in the house. In what is

becoming a persistent criticism of police, this man believes

should have done more to save home. Not enough police there

there should have been, and another really important point is every 2

weeks, Tottenham have a home and there's hundreds of police, they

contain thousands of people, all sorts of people, and that day, there

was a Spurs game on at 5.15, there were police in the area

lot of police in the area, where were they? Stuart later met

Deputy Prime Minister, just back from holiday, the most senior

politician to have visited the scene. It's thousands of people

coming in for a normal Spurs match, it should have been contained and

sorted out. We have about that, the police will do their

review of what happened right on the High Street, lessons

have to be learned, and then have to be learned, and then there's

the independent investigation into the Duggan incident, the death of Mr

Duggan, but the frustrating thing is everyone in the community has lots

and lots of questions. Some politicians like ex-mayor

Livingstone are drawing between the looting and public

spending cutbacks. But others, including the Home Secretary,

dismiss it as hooliganism. This journalist and youth worker watched

the violence unfold. There's lot of cuts, I know our local CAB

have lost staff, Connections has closed, that was a place where

disaffected young people used to come, and the young offender workers

in the area can't be doing the everyday things with them, so there

is a group of young people that few people are engaging with,

particularly since the cuts. Does that explain it? It doesn't

the rioting, it was boisterous, mad behaviour that was all organised on

their Blackberrys. For many in Tottenham, the arsonists have

hijacked a burning grievance, the shooting by armed police of a young

father last Thursday, his family are demanding answers. Police are under

pressure to explain the circumstances in which Mark Duggan

was shot dead, during what was supposed to be an arrest operation.

The Commission is investigating his

death, and is waiting for the results of a ballistics test to

determine whether he opened fire on police first or not. Tonight, as the

police defend their actions, they facial a worsening situation - face

a worsening situation. In Croydon, a furniture store was one of several

buildings set alight, while in the West Midlands are dealing

with disturbances in the centre of Birmingham. Since Saturday,

have been more than 200 arrests. This evening, the Prime Minister has

abandoned his holiday to return to London. In the course of the day, we

asked if a Home Office minister was available to come on the proofing,

we were told no one was available and no one from the government can

speak to us tonight. I am joined by Ken Livingstone, youth worker and

former Conservative candidate for Hammersmith Shaun Bailey, the deputy

chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation John Tully, and

Reverend Nims Obunge, who is from Tottenham. Why do you think this

happened? I think there is clearly criminality, there is this real

problem now with social network which allows people to come to these

riots much more rapidly than they did in the early 1980s but I have

been in about 18 London boroughs this year, spending a day in each,

gone into colleges, young people there are so uncertain about their

future. I went to a college Tottenham where half the kids

thought they might not be able to afford to condition their course

because of the EMA - That sounds like an excuse. We can have a

of politicians come on and denounce criminality, we can do it again next

summer when it happens or find a way to stop it. I think for the first

time certainly in my lifetime, a generation are growing up completely

uncertain about their future, whether they can get a home or job,

they see politicians that don't engage with them. You have to

crackdown on this, I got 7,000 police in London, if we hadn't got

those, this would be out of control tonight. A generation to

have no hope, can't get on with a job, can't afford to go to

university? It's horrible to watch people make some mileage out of

this, it's not about 7,000 police, these are young people not scared

concerned about the police. If you, please what's happened, this

have been communicating and picking up the places to riot, it's a set of

kids doing this, most kids are not doing it. To try and link this to

the cuts is electioneering. This a deeper issue about why we

feel we can engage our children. Are you saying it's not connected

the cuts at all? Absolutely not. These kids aren't talking about

at all. have been warning the government all

year there was the potential for this. We saw this the last time we

went through a real downturn in the economy in the early 1980s, it's not

an excuse, but we'd be stupid not recognise it's part of the cause.

Ken, it is always the business of whoever's in government, red or

blue, to look after the future of children and they try to do that,

but you have to be careful that you don't excuse their behaviour, you

must understand the vast majority young people had nothing to do with

this and the vast majority of young people who are involved are just

criminals. If you notice, on the BB network, some of my young people

showed me this morning, they are picking particular shops. Sports

shops, for example. Yes, and that shows you it's organised

particular manner. You can't get over the fact that the last time we

had rioting consistently like this was in the early 1980s, in the

depths of recession, it's come And it's not unique here, it happens

in America, it happens in Europe. The government's got to have a

programme to make certain you catch the criminals, we've got to stop

this nonsense they're going to get rid of 2,000 police in London next

year, about you have to give a young generation the hope there's

something for there. You're in that community where it started, but it

started with a peaceful protest. What do you see as the root causes

for this? Forgive me, these are good friends of mine, let's politics

out of the door, I need to be clear about this. I was there, I saw

beginnings of it. And this is not a response just to what happened on

that day. It is important, with the families of Mark Duggan,

and I heard their cry for clarity of what went wrong in relation to the

situation. The shooting? Yes, the shooting, they wanted answers, they

felt they hadn't been engaged effectively. Unfortunately, this

expanded, extended itself for long. How did that actually happen?

They want legitimate answers to legitimate questions, everybody

does. How did that turn into people looting pairs of trainers from

shops? We have to be clear about this, it didn't start with looting

pairs of trainers. There are no excuses, but we have to understand

some reasons here. What we've got to understand, some of these young

people feel they have got no in society and they don't feel

they're risking anything, but I'll tell you what happened at that time,

four or five hours waiting outside the police station, that was what

happened, beyond - at the end of which, the family said, we're going,

we're not getting our answers, we're going. So some young people had

already BB'ed, as we heard shaun say, and had come in. It looks to

outsiders as if this is almost recreational rioting, they're having

fun. Can I say this, let's get this right. The first thing that was

destroyed were two police cars, I saw that happen. They were

into the centre and got burnt up. The next thing that

there was chaos on our streets. It escalated. Are the police

particular target? Are you that relations with the police are

still bad? The relations with the police need some fixing, evidently

so. Tottenham and Haringey and with our police and young people,

have been some directions, we've moved forward, but we're not where

we need to be. John, do you that relations with the police are

still not good for many of these young people, they feel they

little stake in society and burning police cars is a port of call? Most

definitely, there has been an enormous move forward from the

1980s, the late 1980s, when there was a broken relationship between

ourselves as a police service and - It doesn't look like that. It looks

terrible, like the police don't a grip. I disagree, I think an

enormous amount of effort has put in by the police service to

engage with the local communities, each ward within the bus have their

own community police teams - between the boroughs. But from Harlesden to

Croydon, something going off Birmingham as well, there's pockets

of this all over London. They may have been engaged for 25 years or

more, but it doesn't seem to be working and people are asking,

are the police? The police are there, they're doing their utmost to

contain it, there are finite resources, before I was here this

evening, I was at the control centre in Lambeth, an enormous amount of

effort is being put in by senior commanders and the people out on the

streets, the people I represent, the boys and girls doing the day to day

job, who have to face what you're seeing on your screens, and they

really dedicated to that job. you think morale in the police has

taken a big hit? We have seen the resignation of two senior officers

recently, we know the World scandal and all these

things. We're heading for three commissioners in four years, that

doesn't help. You've got the scandals, the threat, last year

1,000 jobs were left vacant of the freeze on recruitment,

have this proposal to cut 1,900 people, but I have to say, there has

been a sea change in policing. years ago, it was like an army of

occupation, the black youth talked about rebellion. The world has

dramatically moved on. We have one tragic incident, and I have to say,

the Trident team have arrested well over 100 armed criminals without

firing a shot. Something went wrong. Doesn't that undercut your

that there are political reasons for this? It sounds like simply I don't

knowerry, doesn't - yoberry, doesn't it? It's not the fault of the

police. Policing has had a sea change in this city. Why is it the

fault of the government? I was up in Tottenham, which has had a 9% cut

nearly in its government grant, the youth centres are closing, people

are seeing all the sort of things they used to rely on going. The

lads who are lads who are rioting, would they

otherwise be in a youth centre? People are going to doubt that. We

have been talking about youth services, a 75% cut in youth

services, that's real. The danger is if the press or politicians look for

one simple answer, we're making a big mistake, we're looking at a

catalogue of issues and potential failures, we're looking at something

that needs to be looked at more robustly, we're looking at the

challenges some of our young people have had and if we suggest this is

down to cuts, we're making a big mistake. For me, one of the driving

issues is in the last 10-15 years, we have done so much value about

their rights but little about their responsibilities. What I would

to the young people right now, are attacking the community you come

from, and people at home, in my opinion, a large part of it is about

yoberry. What about closing youth centres? The comment that most of

these kids would be in a youth centre, you've have to look at that,

but our youth feel they can take this risk and have nothing to use.

Two things, some of them feel genuinely disconnected, but we've

encouraged them to take control of the world, we have abdicated power

to young people. In that sense, you think they are more violent

because they are more rootless and less fixed in a moral sense? Yes,

we have been trying to replace people families with welfare,

need to go back to the family structure. You mentioned at the

start, if we can't get it right this year, we can't get it right next

year. That seems like a nod to the Olympics. People around the world

will think it's shameful if one of the greatest cities in the world

can't manage to keep the peace. There is a layer of issues here.

There is the potential, with cuts, for this revolt against that,

there is also the problem that we've got a policing morale demoralised,

the threat that - the best part of 2,000 police are going to go the

minute the Olympics is out of the way, and you have to have a

focus on this, the Mayor and Prime Minister have to get a grip

and be seen to speak to everybody, not just an elite at the top of

society. What do you want from them when they come back? The Mayor is

his way back, the will be back tomorrow. We need

commitment they're going to support the police and the way they're

going to support us is by implementing their 20% cuts,

implementing the Windsor review pay and conditions, which will drive

morale even further down to what it is at the moment, increasing our

pension subscriptions. People understand that this is a deep

concern to the police, but there's a situation on the streets

which suggests that that's a kind of threat, if you don't pay us what we

want, there's going to be more rioting? I don't think it is

threat. It's a concern. The people represent are really concerned about

their futures, considering whether they should leave the police

as a result of those cuts and changes, but what I have to

emphasise is the dedication of the people who are on the

tonight and have been on the since Thursday is without question.

What do you want from the Prime Minister tomorrow? What I want from

the Prime Minister is to let everybody know that there is a plan

to sort this out. I don't want to jump to one conclusion and

at the thing, there is a gambit look at, but what I don't want

politicians is for them to use it forward their agenda and for

government departments to suggest they don't get a cut, this wouldn't

happen. Do you not worry, where these guys? Why wasn't the Prime

Minister back earlier to you? This is something the media have

most childish about. Do you David Cameron is going to go down

there with a shield in Tottenham and Hackney? We have a mechanism,

big sophisticated society. Jury but we need leaders, where are

they? We have all manner of people to deal with the situation. The

point is this - The Prime is coming back from holiday, and the

Mayor of London. They are not the people who will put this problem

right. This problem is in our communities, in our economy. What

are our young people going to do a job, what are our

going to do to control the behaviour of young people? If we weren't

having a riot, we would be smearing young people's names elsewhere. We

have lost control of our young people. Do you see a situation

where the army could be involved? think the army is a bit

overstretched in Afghanistan at the moment. I find myself agreeing with

Shaun. Kids have to have the prospect of a job. At the moment,

the majority have no guarantee that's coming. What young men want

is to have a job, which means they can support a wife and family,

restore those sort of family values Shaun is talking about. At the

moment, a lot of young people through the system haven't got

confidence. I want to raise with you again the question of the

Olympics. People will be very worried about the Olympics, and

there's a possibility of a terrorist threat on top of that, and public

order and more people coming to our country. This is why politicians

have to - Shaun is right, not coming back to run the system,

but when I was in Singapore and the bombs went off - Which is when the

London bid was won. have to be there, articulating and

reassuring, you can't do that on the phone, you have to be on the street.

One specific question about the Duggan family, would it help if

there was an apology? They there will be an inquiry, we will

find out eventually, but it won't be tomorrow or the next day, it will

take some time. Let me be clear, we have the IPCC, who have had

connections with the family, and that's being worked through. It's

important that communities feel reassured that the IPCC will be

transparent, it's important that truth gets out into communities,

it's important that holistically, as Londoners, we say this should not

continue, but the reality is this, until we are sure - and it is

important that there is an appropriate response from the

police, at the point in time, if the IPCC say there is a concern, then

the police need to give an appropriate response, to local

communities, because if trust is not there, then this can get worse

don't want it to. We'll leave it there, thank you all very much.

Well, TV satellite trucks to be pulled away from trouble spots

across London tonight because of security, but we are joined by

Guardian journalist Paul Lewis has followed these disturbances

the start, on the streets of Hackney. What are you seeing?

Hackney has really been some of the most shocking scenes I've seen over

the last 72 hours. The Pembury estate was the epicentre, and it

really taken over by youths burning cars, forming flaming barricades and

really taking complete control of the estate, for about 3

would say, they had of the area, and police could do

nothing. I saw isolated police being attacked in their cars,

the roof of the police car, smashing it with bricks and police officers

still inside, others isolated and those journalists who are in here

are being attacked, a colleague of mine I saw thrown to the floor and

beaten. It is really a shockingly chaotic situation here. Is it

actually - it sounds like worse than last night or the night before?

think it changed actually, it's very easy to talk about generalised

rioting and looting but what happened on Saturday night I felt

was more political, even when were ransacking shops, they were

still talking about Mark Duggan's death. Last night again it changed,

it was property theft predominantly, no attempts at confrontations with

police but gangs roaming the streets, going from shop to shop,

taking what they can. Tonight it has changed again, there is quite a bad

turn, a feeling of self-destruction almost, with people destroying

own communities, and actually one of the most disappointing things I've

seen just in the last 15 minutes here in kingsland Road, in the

centre of Hackney, is clashes between residents. I saw a group of

about 100 Turkish/Kurdish men with sticks and bottles chasing another

group of youths away, saying that their shops had been looted and they

were fighting back. That kind of intercommunal violence is system

that I've not seen yet and I've been here for 3 days. A final thought,

how orchestrated is all that, and how random? Are they really using

messaging and paging to get this organised in some way? They are,

absolutely. This kind of mythical sense that somehow Twitter and

Facebook are being used, that's not the case. They're using closed

networks, BBM messenger. We at The Guardian set up an account to

receive these messages, and they are announcing locations and areas,

are being circulated among closed networks on Blackberry

phones, people are turning up, choosing back streets andallies

before arriving at these areas, before appearing at these

pre-planned destinations, so to that degree, there is a level of

orchestration. News just in, has been looting in Woolwich High

Street, several hundred young people said to be involved, but there's

nothing new in rioting in Britain, many of today's pictures have

reminded people of what happened in our inner cities in the 1980s but

are there really any useful parallels?

The events are three decades old, but the images are still haunting.

1985's riots in the Broadwater Farm area of Tottenham were linked to the

death of a black woman during police search, then a policeman was

killed during the disturbances. Violent disorder and inner city

riots were a feature of parts of Britain in the early 80s, in Toxteth

in 1981 and Brixton later the same year. Are today's tensions as

serious or as widespread as then? There are some similarities. In the

early 1980s, Britain had a contracting economy, high youth

unemployment and government cuts, but it was also a period of sharp

ideological differences between left and right and different

interpretations of the cause of the unrest. I grew up in the 30s with

an unemployed father. He didn't riot, he got on his bike and looked

for work. So are the similarities superficial or even misleading? Or

does the anger of the 1980s really resemble the anger of today? Is a

generation too young to remember those riots experiencing new causes

of resentment or simply engaging in opportunistic criminal acts? With

their thoughts on what lessons if any we can learn from the riots

the 1980s, I'm joined by Darcus Howe and former so far MP and government

minister Edwina Currie. Darcus, you see any echoes of the 1980s?

Not echoes, only a continuation, and these huge moments, which began

the 80s, and then you toodle along, and then another explosion and what

strikes me is the absolute ignorance of the punters, who have no idea

what's going among young blacks, they have no idea what are thinking,

they have no idea when they are about to explode. Did you know?

you have a sense that this was going to happen? Absolutely. Why? I

have a grandson, who is 15, and who cannot count the number of times he

was stopped and searched. And every time he tells it to you, his

intonation changeses. And that is what's been going on behind

backs of society, this constant stopping and searching of young

blacks. The gratuitously. Let bring in Edwina Currie, that is

echo of the 1980s, isn't it? don't think it's anything like the

1980s. In those days, I was in Birmingham, and we had the riots in

Hamsworth, which you haven't mentioned. In those days,

a lot of racism, it was almost respectable to be racist, and

of institutions were and the youngsters I think in many ways were

justified in their complaint. They weren't justified in their

behaviour, that's a different matter, but since then, an enormous

amount of effort has been put in by people like Darcus and many others

that we have interviewed tonight to improve those communities and give

everybody a reasonable chance. What we have got now, we heard Shaun

earlier called it yobbery, with robbery, kids who are taking the

opportunity to go and steal, they are covering it up with this

political cloak of invisibility. We all have to take responsibility

our actions. The police have to take responsibility for their actions,

but so, I think, do these young people, whatever their

and colour, they are responsible for what they are doing. Darcus, I take

it you accept that, they are responsible for what they are doing,

there's no excuse for it. I'm not making any excuse for you, I'm

telling you, quietly and seriously, what side I'm on. Am I on the side

of my grandson? Absolutely yes. We brought him up, he's a decent

fellow, constantly, at first he thinks, oh, I'm now being initiated,

what happens, a policeman stopped me, for what? You give me the 20

seconds before you stopped, nothing. And they keep doing it. It is as

though they're drawn to humiliating a particular race in a particular

place. Do you not think, to pick up Edwina Currie's point though, that

things have changed a lot in the past 30 years? Racism is

not respectable now and there tinge of it then which was to some

people regarded as okay, and that's gone, that has changed. Edwina

fine person, and she knows that I think that about her, but I would

never listen to Edwina describe how much racism there is at any given

society - let me finish, she has never known, and she will never know

Edwina, you will never know, other words white people probably

just don't get what a 15-year-old black kid in this country feels.

With all due respect to Darcus, think he demeans himself, as a very

responsible and dignified man, by defending what is totally

indefensible. The behaviour of the people that we've seen on the

streets, whatever their background or colour, and no doubt there are

all sorts involved, particularly on Saturday and over the weekend,

are destroying the communities they live in themselves.

destroy the businesses that are owned by black people, destroying

the homes of black people, leaving people completely bereft and

bewildered, their own sisters, brothers, mothers and uncles and

aunts, not the behaviour of a group of people with any kind of morality.

The problem is not they're disconnected from jobs, but they're

disconnected from any real sense right or wrong, any sense that says,

what's mine is mine, and what's yours is yours, and I don't touch

it. These kids are saying, "Haye, we can have the trainers my mum won't

buy me or the latest Blackberry, can just go and take it". As a

former MP, she knows where the thieves are and how many of them

in prison now. I do not wish to make a point on this, but young blacks,

fine citizens of this country to be, are constantly being% recruited by

the police. I have - persecuted by the police. I have never been on

bail for 10 years of my life and I would never give up, and what I say

to them is you will get insurance for burning the place down

and let's go away. Thank you very much. The trouble has spread

beyond London to Birmingham, as we said, tonight so our reporter Claire

Marshall has spent the evening in Birmingham city centre. What's been

happening? I've just come back the city centre, it is

extraordinary, it hasn't reached heights of London, but everywhere I

went, I saw people looting chemists, mobile phone shops, banks, a cash

point machine almost entirely - almost pulled out of a shop. They

didn't seem to really be troubled by the thought of potentially

identifying themselves, there was a real sense of menace, a lot of

people who were extremely scared, I spoke to one girl, just 18, she and

her boyfriend had been coming into Birmingham on the bus to go for

night out, the bus had pulled up the traffic lights, a mob who were

attacking a shop started hurling rocks at the bus and breaking the

windows. A lot of people saying have seen mindless violence. A few

people have - not supported the consequences of what is happening

here, but who have some sympathy why it's happening. One young lady,

an outreach worker, said, "I'm not a thief but I feel a sense of anger".

She said young people are feeling frustration that they have no

opportunities, and this is out of a sense of that, that they're

never going to see anything better in their lives. Another young girl

called the police racist and described this as some kind

that would go on. Just coming back to the BBC offices, we're

building here, which is the equivalent of Bond Street in London,

the mailbox extremely well - classy shops here, the Armani shop had been

looted and police were trying move them out. They seem to be

moving around trying to get a hands, but we say in one police as

reporters, and the looters come back. There are a lot of police, we

they seem to be trying to move around, to try to do what they can,

but it's still going on. Certainly no signs of it stopping here at the

moment. Thanks, Claire. We're getting reports tonight that Essex

and Suffolk police will be sending some of their personnel to help out

the Metropolitan Police in London. We'll return to the disorder across

London at the end of the programme but there has been another

story today, financial markets around the world plunged yet again

despite the news that the Central Bank was now buying Spanish

and Italian bonds and further attempts by government leaders to

calm the storm. So is the West heading for a second recession and

what can be done to stop this? Verity on today's bloodbath.

Where is the world economy heading? Stock markets went into panic today

that we might be heading for second global recession. Is anyone

in control? Or is this a runaway train? We are not in an ordinary

recession and the turn great recession as people have been

calling it is misleading, it's not like a bad flu but more like

pneumonia. Since the age of steam, political leaders have been told by

their economic advisers that they're heading for a slump, they

know how to change direction, are crucial levers of commission

policy, cutting interest rates, slashing taxes or printing money,

but two years after the last slump, are there any levers left to pull?

The Keynesian way is to boost public spending. Any chance of that? It's

very difficult, this is what we have been doing over the past few years,

is governments have jumped in and made up the private consumption, now

we see the consequences of that, credit ratings are at risk,

investors are reluctant to invest any longer in these economies, so we

can't keep doing that. In the United States you saw that. Governments

could cut taxes now, then raise them later. That idea is gaining support,

but it's not easy to square with austerity. The big fear in the

market is we're going from fiscal stimulus to massive fiscal

retrenchment in a very short space of time, when the economy is already

very weak. If they can limit the near term tightening and maybe be

clearer about what they're do over the medium term, then

think that might help confidence to some extent. But in spite of

years of fiscal stimulus, Wall Street plunged by 6% today in panic

selling. The price of oil has fallen by $13 since the start of the week.

The most powerful leaders in the world are exasperated. The gridlock

in Washington over the last several months has not been constructive,

say the least. We knew from the outset that a prolonged debate over

the debt ceiling, a debate where the threat 6 default was used as

bargaining chip, could do enormous damage to our economy and the

world's. That threat, coming after a string of economic disruptions in

Europe, Japan and the Middle East, has now riled the markets. The

first response to a first response to a slowdown

be to cut interest rates, in the and UK, that lever has been pulled

as far as it can go. The ECB now could, because they have raised

rates this year, and they could take the overnight borrowing rate back

down to single digits, and that may happen. We're getting to a point

where either the market start to find a base or policy

makers will be increasingly desperate to find ways to stabilise

things, but in this vicious circle, it's hard for them to do so. The US

and UK have effectively printed close to half a trillion pounds

since the banking crisis struck, if they pull that lever again, would

fuel inflation? This is a really question, how big should

quantitative easing be, that's what they call the printing money,

buying bonds that the Federal Reserve has done and the ECB has

done through the back door. Frankly, they need to come out and say,

trying to raise the inflation rates, we have targeted, we will do it in

unlimited amounts until we achieve our target, and when inflation gets

on, interest rates will go up, we'll be able to use normal monetary

policy. Believe it or not, this is what Western economists have been

advising Japan for a long time and when it comes to us doing the same

thing, we say wait, that's a little scary. I'm afraid it's a risk that

has to be taken. That obviously the easiest option, but it's not

consistent with the mandates Central Banks, particularly not here

in Europe, the ECB has a clear mandate to achieve stability, so

that would be a breach of the treaty. If the ECB would embark on

an inflationary policy. This is also the last thing that they will do.

Central Banks and governments have spent decades trying to tame

inflation, denouncing it as the greatest of economic evils, it's the

mark of the extremity of this debt crisis that it's now seen by others,

economists and private investors, as the most realistic hope we have.

Come back inflation, all is forgiven.

That was Andy Verity reporting on the other big story today, more on

our top story, more from Liz, the latest? Without doubt,

during the time we have been on air, the situation is getting worse but

it's so fast moving that you can't be entirely sure of all the reports

we're hearing. The latest is of fire in Notting Hill in West London,

where no less than David used to live, before he became Prime

Minister. We're also hearing well as the fire that's still on in

Croydon, there are reports of youths rampaging in Clapham, South London,

even with petrol bombs, according to a cameraman at the scene. There are

still problems in other districts of London. We should say, it's not

right across London at all, these are small areas, but where they're

happening, it's seething and the atmosphere is extremely difficult,

not just for police but for residents and business owners, so

we're seeing problems in Ilfor did,, step any green in East London, and

Lewisham still. There's a lot of anger out there, really directed at

two targets, certainly the mainly very young youths who are

responsible for it, who are running around looting, causing damage

stealing things, setting fires, but anger too at the police, and

is this view that really the police, they might be dealing

difficult situation, but they didn't respond quickly enough, nor are

meeting - Sorry to interrupt, these are some pictures from Birmingham

just in, as you can see, the police with the shields on the

streets of Birmingham tonight. And that situation has been spreading,

and we heard earlier there had nine arrests there, different

things, all of youths, some of them juveniles, I think six of the nine

juveniles, this is what we're seeing in London too, very young people

getting involved. Thanks very much. Let's have a look at the front pages

of tomorrow. of tomorrow.

Full-scale alert as violent riots Full-scale alert as violent riots

spread across capital. That's all from Newsnight tonight, I will be