10/08/2011 Newsnight

Tonight parts of our society are Tonight parts of our society are

sick, according to the Prime sick, according to the Prime

Minister. It comes after three men were left dead this morning after

night of rioting and unrest. Anything I ever wanted done,

always ask Haroon to sort it out me, not my eldest or my daughter,

but my youngest. And they killed him. The Prime Minister says

is something fundamentally wrong with the country. There are pockets

of our society that are not just broken, but frankly sick. So

drives the looters? Greed? Hopelessness? No moral sense? Look

around here, what have they got? They got nothing. That doesn't give

them a right to smash the place up. They was talk to go us. Have I

condoned it? Do you think it's that someone is shot in

nothing? We will be Sayeeda Warsi and Labour's Diane

Abbott if they agree with David Cameron's diagnosis of a

society and what medicine they prescribe. Residents pull together

to defend and protect their neighbourhoods, but is there

danger of vigilantism? We ain't having all these people coming up

here and ruining our place, right, burning our town down, right? We are

going to make a stand. And markets dive and bank shares plunge as fears

grow about France's debt. started running hard today to

re-establish law and order the initiative on the riots in

English cities. Announcing a fightback, he declared that in areas

of our city, they are in some way sick. This comes amid moves to

withdraw social housing from convicted rioters and the Mayor

called for planned police cuts to be reconsidered. Disturbances continued

last night in many areas. said rioters brought shame on the

streets of Manchester, with shops smashed and goods taken and

they described serious violence in Liverpool. A police station was fire

bombed in Nottingham and there was unrest in Leicester and Gloucester.

Tonight in the capital it is reported to be largely quiet but

England's second largest city perhaps more tense than most. The

death of three young Muslims in Birmingham is being treated

murder by the police. That's we begin, in a city with a history

of ethnic violence and which the edge tonight. Liz MacKean spent

In Birmingham tonight residents are In Birmingham tonight residents are

being asked to trust the police to keep the streets safe. But some are

taking precautions anyway. As in London, there has been a surge of

officers on patrol, to protect property from looters and to ensure

there's no retaliation after the murders of three Asian men.

I think they are dead. They are I think they are dead. They are

dead. These pictures were taken at 1.00am this morning just after a car

had been driven at speed towards a group of men, hitting three of them.

I heard the thud, ran round and seen three people on the ground.

Tariq Jahan heard the collision ran to help, not realising that one

of those fatally injured was his son, 21-year-old Haroon. I heard

the thud, ran round and I seen three people on the ground. My instinct

was to help the three people. didn't know who they were,

been injured. I helped the first man and somebody from behind told me

that my son was lying behind me so I started CPR on my own son. My

was covered in blad, my covered in blood. Why? Two brothers,

Shahzad Ali and Abdul Musavir, 30 and 31, also died. They had been

among a group of 80 local men walking along the streets to guard

property, including the mosque today the men were remembered in

prayers. People who had known them struggled to come to terms

their deaths. They were innocent young lads who were killed, murdered

by a gang of thugs, call them what you want. There was no reason for

it. We didn't know them, they didn't know us. Just because we are

standing outside our business they didn't like it. Until last

night, this area around Dudley Road had largely

that has afflicted other the city. At the moment there's more

disbelief than anger at what has happened here, but in either case

people are demanding answers. For some that we've spoken to, it's

case of criminality, nothing more than that. Others believe

fact it points to underlying tensions between the different

In the past, those tensions have led In the past, those tensions have led

to violence between Asians and blacks. People here say they get

along easily enough, but the clashes are not forgotten. As we are growing

up, when you see riots at this age, and then when you grow up you see it

again, you have to take part, you have to keep them away. We feel the

police can't defend us. We are taking defensive measures basically

just to avert trouble from us. It's really bad round here because people

don't trust the black Some are good but some are not good

and they are really attacking us and some are really scared.

stresses were acknowledged by police today who confirmed that a

32-year-old black man has arrested on suspicion of murder. I

would appeal to people, at this time, to be calm. If we are

calm I'm absolutely confident that the people of the West Midlands can

get through this for us strange and difficult phase and that we can

rebuild trust between communities and move on with a sense of purpose.

But it seemed to be reassurance that people want most. They gathered

community centre to demand greater protection from both police and

politicians. Those that couldn't fit in waited outside. News of the

meeting was broadcast by a local community TV station, beamed around

the world. Most of Sangat TV's programmes are in Punjabi, so reach

not just Sikhs but Muslims and Hindus. Since the rioting spread in

the West Midlands on Monday, the TV station has been streaming live

footage. They believe it has helped to keep those different communities

informed and more stable. What we try to do actually, to save

community there, to save their values, their shops and everything

just by informing them and saving the community - this is what it

stands for, the whole congregation is about the community and how to

protect each other. Haroon Jahan's father said there should be no

revenge as he paid tribute to a good and gifted son. I don't

nobody. I'm a Muslim and I believe in divine fate and destiny

was his destiny and his fate and he has gone. May Allah forgive him

and bless him. That's all I have to say, no more, thank you very much.

So far tonight his appeal for restraint is being heard. Police,

who have made more than 300 since the trouble began, say they

will continue their high visibility presence as an uneasy calm settles

That was Liz MacKean reporting from That was Liz MacKean reporting from

That was Liz MacKean reporting from Birmingham, so what did David

Birmingham, so what did David Birmingham, so what did David

That was Liz MacKean Cameron mean by drawing attention to

pockets of our society which he claimed are "sick"? David

has been trying to find out what the sickness might be and what cures

be on offer. Peckham residents are using Post-it

notes to send messages, think about the riots, what they

think about living in Peckham and what they think have caused it all.

Messages too are here from businesses, trying to keep going.

One thing it's not is "business as One thing it's not is "business as

usual" for the politicians. For a start, their summer holidays have

all been interrupted as Parliament re-assembles tomorrow. Part of their

job now is to define why all riots happened. What were the causes

and crucially how can they stop them happening again?

The Prime Minister's message today The Prime Minister's message today

was: the fightback has begun. police can, if they think they need

them, use water cannon and plastic bullets, and while he was at it Mr

Cameron fired off his own stinging rebuke. Good morning. There are

pockets of our society that just broken, but frankly sick. When

we see children as young as 13 looting and laughing, when we see

the disgusting sight of an young man with people pretending to

help him while they are robbing him, it is clear there are things that

are badly wrong in our society. For me, the root cause of this mindless

selfishness is the same thing that I've spoken about for years. It is a

complete lack of responsibility parts of our society, people allowed

to feel that the world owes them something, that their rights

outweigh their responsibilities and that their actions do not

consequences. Well, they do have consequences.

This was a very different sounding This was a very different sounding

David Cameron to the one who, in opposition, invited us to understand

the hoodie wearer a bit more. So when you see a child walking down a

street, hoodie up, head down, moody, swaggering, dominating the pavement,

think what has brought that child that moment. That is what

Labour has so far struggled to post Labour has so far struggled to post

a distinctive message of their own. On last night's Newsnight the deputy

leader Harriet Harman did try to develop one linking the riots with

government cuts. There is a sense that young people feel they

being listened to. That is not justify violence, but I think that

when you've got the trebling tuition fees, they should think

again about that. When you've got the EMA being taken away, jobs being

cut and youth unemployment and they are shutting the Jobcentre

in Camberwell, well you should think again about that because this is

going to cost money. This does not help. All of this does not

reduce the deficit. A U gov poll The Sun newspaper today

this is not a popular explanation. When asked, 42% blamed the riots

criminal behaviour. .

David Cameron commissioned Field to look at policy and life

chances and in his report he identified parenting as the key

factor. I don't sense the Prime Minister has taken any of that on

board. I think the government regards this as sort of a fluffy

topic maybe to comment on occasionally. They don't see it as

central to the maintenance of a free society which has boundaries to that

Back in Peckham, there was some Back in Peckham, there was some

Back in Peckham, there was some agreement with David Cameron's

agreement with David Cameron's agreement with David Cameron's

tougher language on ternal tougher language on ternal

tougher language on ternal responsibility. Lindsay Johns

responsibility. Lindsay Johns responsibility. Lindsay Johns

Back in Peckham, volunteers as a mentor to school

children. If you want to look root cause I would say the culture

of instant gratification that a lot of young people have in their minds,

a culture of entitlement, everything is for free, a culture of rampant

materialism and gratification, these are the

that are pervading our young people's brains. For another youth

worker we met who got himself from Peckham to Oxford University there

are wider societal causes. think there's that much of a

between young people on the street and some of the mistakes that adults

make. There's a reflection. I think that's the discourse that has to

set around that, that a society sometimes is reflected by the young

people that are around it and some of those values and things, some of

that sickness we are talking about has come from above, not just from

below. So we as a society made them? I'm not saying we've made

them but we've given that allows these extreme decisions

to be made. So how do we that framework? I'm going to sound

very trite again and very altruistic but I sometimes think that one of

the words missing in all of this love and caring and compassion. I

think somewhere in all has been no area of compassion.

There are plenty of police and There are plenty of police and

There are plenty of police and community support officers on the

community support officers on the community support officers on the

There are plenty ground here in Peckham and all

across London at the moment. Getting those numbers here was seen as

crucial to putting an end or getting a lid on the disturbances, but going

forward police numbers are providing perhaps the most obvious and

immediate political battleground between the parties.

The Mayor of London for one thinks The Mayor of London for one thinks

the government should abandon its plans to cut police budgets. Labour

agrees. Supermarket Sweep! these last few frantic days and

frightening nights, the politics the law and order debate has changed

Now I am joined by Diane Abbott, Now I am joined by Diane Abbott,

Now I am joined by Diane Abbott, Labour MP for Hackney which of

Labour MP for Hackney which of Labour MP for Hackney which of

course has suffered considerable course has suffered considerable

Now I am joined by Diane damage in the riots and from Leeds

by the chairman Party, Baroness Sayeeda Warsi,

is also minister in charge of social cohesion. Can you explain to us

David Cameron had in mind when he talked about these pockets of our

society that are sick? I think what the Prime Minister was referring to

was a culture of feeling within communities and within young

that they don't have to take personal responsibility, that it's

always somebody else's fault, that something else can be blamed

what they are having to do and what they are doing, and if you look at

whether that's parental responsibility, whether it's the way

in which young people have been looting and smiling at the camera

they are doing it, whether they are saying they have a right to take

these goods, whether the way in which they've torched people's

houses and taken away people's livelihoods, and indeed people have

lost their lives, that is what David Cameron means about a broken

society, a society that is sick. Diane Abbott, when we see these

pictures, when we see that young lad who had clearly been beaten up and

then someone pretends to help and then steals his wallet, that is

sick, isn't it? I don't know about pictures. I was on the streets of

Hackney on Monday night at the height of the riots and I said on

the streets, at the height of the riots, people need to take

children off the street. If that isn't preaching personal

responsibility, I don't know what is. I saw some sickening things in

Hackney, in my constituency, and I've seen sickening things happen

elsewhere. So you agree with Prime Minister? No, you haven't let

me finish, Gavin. I've seen sickening acts but to stigmatise

parts of the society as sick is quite wrong. Yes, sickening things

happened in Hackney but hundreds of people gathered the following

morning to help to clear up the borough. It is not helpful to

stigmatise either an age group or a part of society as sick, as some

sort of cancer. Baroness Warsi, it's not helpful and society is

composed as individuals, it points fingers at certain people which

isn't helpful? What the recent riots have shown is the worst

Britain and the best of Britain. I completely agree with Diane when she

says we've seen society come out, for example, in the clean-up, but if

you want to try and resolve a problem, to deal with

you have to say what it is you can start determining what

cure is. I think for too unfortunately people in leadership

positions have come out with excuses, have come out with reasons,

when what they should be saying is that enough is enough. If you break

the law, if you do not play by the rules, if you step over the law then

you will be punished. You will responsibility for the actions

you have taken. It's when we start saying that, when we start saying

that to whether it's young people, whether it's adults, whether it's to

parents, whether it's to teachers in schools and say that we have to

enforce school discipline, whether it's about saying to the way

which we deal with welfare, to say that actually it must pay for you to

work, not pay for you not to work; when we start making these very

clear statements as to what the problems are and how we can resolve

them, that's when we will start getting results. OK, Diane Abbott?

I'm not making excuses for anybody. I've said clearly throughout this

period that looters are thieves they are ludicrously stupid

as well because they are trashing their own communities. With the

greatest respect to Baroness Warsi, what worries me about the language

that David Cameron is using, just that it's wrong and

but the Tories are trying to draw attention from the fact that we've

now seen 12 months into Conservative government the

mainland rioting in country has seen for a century. What's needed is,

first of all, to get control back of the streets, and I'm not

the numbers of police we have London at the moment are

sustainable, and what we also need though is a long term plan for

social cohesion and stability. You are presiding over the

that we've seen for a long Baroness Warsi? And when I say -

when we say these riots are symptomatic of what has

happening for a long time in our society I hope Diane Abbott and her

government will take some responsibility for actually

presiding over creation of this culture of not taking

responsibility. You were in Diane Abbott, just let me get her to

answer that, Labour was in power when many of these children were

born and grew up. News Baroness Warsi, I was not a

government minister. The point I am making is that for all types of

reasons we are seeing frightening - frightening - social disorder. But

was there no political responsibility from the Labour

government - of which you were not a part, was there no

responsibility? All I can say is the last time we had riots of

nature was back in the 1980s when once again there was not a Labour

government. What I'm saying - you are saying - let me finish. We

have to regain control of the streets. Stigmatising communities

not going to do it. I completely agree with you that the

we have to do is take control of our streets to make sure that

law-abiding people and their property is protected but to try

connect this to a Conservative Government I think is ludicrous.

It's part of the narrative which sadly Labour are starting to develop

to try to find a reason, an excuse to connect it to cuts. I mean,

earlier this week I heard Lee Jasper, the adviser to the ex-Mayor

Ken Livingston saying that there are stores like Currys and Foot Locker

who do not spend their corporate budgets in this area and that makes

young people angry. You can come with crazy excuse after excuse.

There is no excuse. There is simple thing happening on our

streets: it is people going out creating criminal acts, looting,

burning down homes and businesses and we have to be prepared - you

know, Diane, until you stand up and start saying very clearly people

have to start taking personal responsibility, society expects

certain set of more or less and we have to start saying those clearly.

You made that point clearly. Diane Abbott? I said it all along. People

have to take their children off the streets. I saw children of 8 or 9

and stood up and - but Harriet Harman talked about

educational maintenance allowances and tuition fees which have not yet

gone up and the EMA has not yet been cut, so how could they possibly

anything to do with this problem? I have said clearly: looters are

thieves. The number one priority is to get control of the streets. But

it's nothing to do with cuts? The Labour Party is not making excuses.

The Labour Party is calling on this government - so it's nothing

with cuts? The cuts, any sense tells you that the cuts are

not going to make anything better soon, but I reject the narrative

that says that cuts has turned people into thieves in the here and

now. Baroness Warsi, we heard Johnson suggesting that cuts to

Metropolitan Police budget shouldn't go ahead. He thinks it has

to do with the cuts. If you - can go back to Diane's point then I will

come to your point. Diane, I completely agree with what

been doing when you have been going into Hackney, speaking to

people, you have been speaking to the victims, and I completely accept

that you have been has been wrong and this is

criminality, but at the same time you have also been saying: well,

this has something to do with the cuts, to do with EMA, the education

maintenancance allowance. No. And the minute you do that you take away

personal responsibility and reinforce that culture which creates

that feeling that people don't have to suffer the consequences of their

actions. Diane wants to respond to that. Yes, with the greatest

respect to Baroness Warsi you have been reading the central

press release and not listening to what I have been saying but why not

tell us about Boris Johnson he is saying about police cuts.

Indeed. Boris Johnson seems to think that cuts play a part in this, does

he not? I have actually been at the two Cobra meetings, and the

question that the Prime Minister has asked the Metropolitan Police on

both those two meetings is to say: do you have the resources to

the streets and to keep people and they have said yes. I am

confident that - should ahead? I am confident that despite

the changes in budgets of that they will have the necessary

police numbers to go out and keep us safe. So they should go ahead?

Let's not forget that during the Labour years when there was

unprecedented amount of money - your direct answer to that

is yes? Of course the answer is yes because during the time of Labour

when unprecedented amounts of money went into the Police Service we

found that only 11% of police forces were out patrolling the streets.

Again, with respect, you cannot there and tell my constituents

police cuts can go ahead. You cannot sustain the levels of policing that

we need to keep my constituents - UK, Diane, that's where you are

wrong - you can, Diane, you are wrong. Because when you have

statistics which show that policing time - Statistics. Only 14% of

time was spent on patrolling the streets and 22% was spent on filling

in forms and paperwork, that filling in paperwork doesn't

keep our streets safe. It's keeping police officers on the beat, on the

front line and that's what we've said we will protect. Do you

actually think that, when Minister talks about a sick society,

he is simply doing what Tony Blair did when he was Shadow

secretary and he said in 1993: believe a society that

such society is a sick other words, both parties simply

play politics, use the same phrases but actually things don't change. I

can't answer for Tony Blair I think David Cameron is doing

playing to the gallery. Of course, if you stigmatise people and abuse

people, people feel better. What saying on behalf of my constituents

who saw those riots go past front doors is we need sustainable

plans to keep people safe. You can put 16,000 policemen on the streets

today. What about next week or the week after? With these police

we will not have the policing we need. Diane Abbott,

Baroness Warsi, thank you both very much.

Now, an army recruit, graphic Now, an army recruit, graphic

Now, an army recruit, graphic designer and a primary school

designer and a primary school designer and a primary school

Now, an army recruit, assistant, these were just some of

the unlikely suspects who appeared in court today for their alleged

role in the riots. Meanwhile, as the legal system grinds into action, the

Prime Minister gave us his diagnosis of the problem

highlighting the problems caused gangs in England's inner cities.

There's no doubt that some of the disturbances were organised but what

part did gangs and gang culture really play in the events of the

past few days? Anna Adams has that part of the story.

Last night Manchester witnessed some Last night Manchester witnessed some

of the most violent scenes in its history. It was a very different

picture tonight. The city is not back to normal but a heavy police

presence finally brought the city back under control. Moss Side in

Manchester is an area not unaccustomed to rioting, but not

this time round. Firefighters here came under attack in last night's

riots but this time it was not Moss Side, it was from gangs

city centre. Ten of their fire engines were vandalised. The

firemen now run a boxing club for youngsters and say this is often the

only alternative they have to joining a gang here. You look

around and the gangs give love, say you are one of us, they feel loved

and wanted, and part of it. to do is say: listen, be a part of

my gang. This is my gang, this the gang that I run. It's a good

gang, it's a gang that's going to down to town tomorrow and try and

recover what has been damaged there. This firefighter has just

come back from Salford and said shops are still smouldering. It was

surreal, like a film set, seeing so many shops damaged and seeing

people's reactions. People aren't happy. These mindless thugs just

wrecking stuff for the sake of They have no real reason to do it

and a lot of people are just jumping on the bandwagon, then people coming

just to watch that are making even worse. The city was eerily

quiet tonight. Shops that weren't boarded up closed early and there

was still a smell of burning in the damp air. People are worried that

scars from last night will take longer than ever to heal. I just

think it's shocking because it's their city as well. It's not just

our city, it's their city as well and they are kind of doing this

their own community and I really understand it. Just

disgusting. They've ruined the and they've ruined the

for young people. So people are going to look at us and think: yeah,

they are all the same. So that's it. It's images like this that have

tarnished a city that has done well to shrug

well to shrug off the stigma of gang warfare and rioting for decades, all

of this undone by one night of looting. A lot of people think

I believe this to be true, a lot are seeing them as scum so they act

scum. Is it any wonder? Look around, what have they got? Nothing.

doesn't give them the right to and smash the place up. He is

talking to us. Have I Do you think it's fair someone has

been shot in London for nothing? What has that to do with wrecking

our shop? Have you got kids? I'm sorry but what has that to do

youth workers say here that the youth workers say here that the

ideology was nothing like they've seen before. Unlike previous

riots they say this had nothing do with politics but was influenced

far more by a growing gang culture and that's an image that certainly

here in Manchester they will to shake off. We've come to this

charity here in Manchester just round the corner from the Probation

Service, a building that was attacked in last night's riots. They

deal with more than 100 young ever single day just coming to this

building and they said at least 65% of them are involved with gangs.

It's just the mindset is making It's just the mindset is making

money, that's all it is. The one mindset that you have when you

are in a gang. No matter how you get it, you will get it. And how do you

break that cycle then? Is that you left London? Yeah, you break

that cycle by just thinking that you could be better in yourself really,

just thinking to yourself: well, this really life because your older

people are getting arrested, they've got life stretches, they have to be

in prison for their whole life because they wanted to make a couple

hundred grand. lot of money, but at what cost

really? Trevor Grant has worked with young offenders for more than 30

years and said some of the young people were looting as a form of

gang initiation. There's structure to gangs, an

there's a top and a bottom. If the word goes out, there's a meeting.

a particular point, with the they have, they can say: right, I

need X amount of people spot to carry out a certain

activity. The message from Greater Manchester Police could

been more stark. Make no mistake, they said today, we know who you

These are not gangs as we know them These are not gangs as we know them

and this is certainly not a turf war. Gangs across the country

now smaller, more fragmented and this time round it looks like they

are motivated only by bling and greed.

Diane Abbott is still with us. We Diane Abbott is still with us. We

are joined by Katherine Birbalsingh are joined by Katherine Birbalsingh

Diane Abbott is still who is setting up a free school in

Lambeth and who has strongly criticised lack of discipline in

comprehensive schools and by MADIX, an ex-gang member who has served

some time in prison. Do you there is a strong gang connection

here with what we are seeing? Well, there might be but I think what's

more important is that we are a number of young people out

who have never been in trouble with the law, breaking the law and they

are being encouraged to do so by lack of authority. We've lost

authority in our families. These children are bringing home

that they've stolen and yet their parents are not taking them to the

police to say that their children have stolen things. We've lost

authority in the streets in terms the police and what the - the powers

that the police have. In teaching we have a saying that says: never smile

until Christmas. Unfortunately, since Saturday when Tottenham

happened, we've just been smiling. But is part of it, however,

of grab what you want culture and that doesn't really matter?

words there's no particular morality or sense of worry about the

consequences? We live in an intensely materialistic society

for a lot of these young people, gangs or no gangs, they are the

labels, they are the bling. your trainers. I think materialism

has always been an issue in western society but this is perhaps the most

intensely materialistic generation of youngsters we've had to deal

with. Why is that? MTV. They hit the same shops all the time, JB

Sports and mobile phone because they want the bling. It's

astonishing. Let me bring in MADIX. Had a do you think of that?

think it is about gangs or who are influenced by gang culture

but not really hardcore gang members in any way? I think it's families

subconsciously fed up, you know, so emotionally things will spill

the slightest excuse. Everyone is fed up, I was on the streets at

ground level and I saw working class people out there doing their thing.

Do you understand? People are fed up. People have got jobs and

struggling, people are losing cars and this and that because

everything is just too much. They are carrying on anyway but you have

a few people that will start it and that will just bring up mass

hysteria, it just starts up everything. But come on, being fed

up and emotional doesn't lead you to try and brick in a bookies.

watched with my own eyes people trying to brick in a Ladbrokes

window in broad daylight. What they going to do, get in there and

place free bets? A lot of this greed and mindless violence and

need to call it what it is. And interestingly Waterstones and

local libraries have not been looted. Yes, they are so fed up

they don't want to read a book. One issue we've tiptoed around is

question of race. Is it that there are some things about a black

culture which are very attractive not just to black youths but

white and Asian youths who follow in some ways and is there a bad side

to that which causes these problems? I think so, and I said MTV earlier.

I think unfortunately, when you survey them, young people will say

they spend six, seven hours sat in front of MTV base. The kind of

culture that is glorified there is men with their cars and their babes

and bling, and so on, and then you do find lots of young people - not

just black young people but well and Asian young people, you

find them shaving their heads and trying to look black in order to

more cool. Right. And that's because of this horrible culture

that is coming from American - you know, the music scene. Did

that kind of thing attractive? I didn't find - what I found

attractive when I was young was the A Team, commando, Rambo, all these

heroes fighting bad people. That desensitised me to guns, to

violence, psychologically it desensitises you. When we

something happening, traumatise us. We shouldn't

to walk past or capitalise on you understand what I'm saying? We

are supposed to be traumatised but the majority of us are not

traumatised. These things happen and it's nothing much for them to

in, do you understand? I'm trying figure out though why it is that the

politicians, David Cameron today and also I think Ed Miliband to

extent suggested that behind this and you seem to be

suggesting it's far more complicated than that. Do you think there are

gangs involved in the of this, or not really? If you

to the police, and I have been talking to my police every day,

often more than once a day, they will tell you is, if this was

just "a gang" organising this looting, actually it would be much

easier to disrupt and much easier to find out what's doing. The

with it is that it is so chaotic and anarchic. When you pick up people,

some of them are members of gangs but basically this is a

thing organised by text messages and BlackBerry Messenger. Let me come to

black culture. First of all, not all of these looters are black, not even

in Brixton. If you are in Manchester, most of the looters are

white. But there are issues with some of our young black people,

particularly some of our young black men but I won't have black culture

stigmatised. My parents are the generation that came in the 50s,

60s, were church-goers, loved Queen - more than you love the

they loved the Queen - know how much I love the Queen or

otherwise! Furthermore, they were grateful to be able to come here and

work so there's nothing intrinsic about West Indian culture

leads to criminality but I live in Hackney I know there are

about some of our young black men but let's not stigmatise the black

culture as a whole. But to take MADIX's point about young people who

become desensitised to violence - Not just to violence, they are

desensitised to sex. They are having sex earlier, they have children

who ends up with no father nine times out of ten the child

up with no father. It is from there. Young people have had sex early,

it's easy to go on about black culture but again going to my

father, he became sheet metal worker, his sense of

pride was all tied up in that blue collar job. There is no role for

working class men, black or who don't have qualifications. It's

partly the change in the economy. But education is just so

Yes. If the schools are not able - we've got 17% of our 15-year-olds

who are functionally illiterate. The problem is that if our school

is not performing at the level needs to perform, we are churning

out children who literally cannot read and write, they cannot

appreciate the beauty of a building, they cannot want to go to a film

appreciate the drama in it. And so they are bored. And they are not

sensible enough not to go looting broad daylight. That's the other

thing. When you were involved in this, was there any organisation or

part of the state, the police or teachers or anything that you

particularly respected or did not respect any of them? In other

words, if a teacher came to you said you are doing wrong,

to do it this way, what have said? I remember at the

school days, very boring. Like, teachers, most of them was

temporaries, a lot of strikes at the time, school was free time. People

stopped going to school there was nothing to do there. Until

it got better, teachers came in, then it got better, but other than

that - But that's why education is so important and when Diane

about her father and those times, West Indian people, in so many ways

we are losing that. Our young are growing up without a sense of

determination to work hard and make their lives better. Or discipline.

Exactly. Do you get those from family? If you haven't

that functions, you are not going to have it. My father every week came

home with a wage packet, gave my her shopping money, us children our

pocket money and a bar of chocolate. A lot of families I see are on

estates where they just don't go back and work. Before you turn back

to our reformed gangster friend, for every gangster or looter there are

hundreds of black children trying and I'm really unhappy when

people assume that black looters the face of our young black people

because it's not. No, and in most black people are horrified by

what's going on and what's unfortunate is that a small

have the rest of us kind of just we are horrified. Just a

thought. You suggested earlier that what we are going to see is

generation doing this because - I mean, is that the way you see it?

Yes, because it has been happening for generations, and the next

generation coming up is going to be worse because it's going to be a

different time. People say the BlackBerry helped people

this crime. In 1981 how organise it? It wasn't even mobile

phones. Whatever form of communication is about that's

they are going to use and it gets around like that. It's not a thing

that's arranged, sat down, let's have a meeting. It's not like that.

It's on the spot, most people know who is running, where they are

going, it's mass hysteria, everyone is just getting into it. Do you

understand? It's nothing planned, like: we are going to do

tomorrow or Saturday. It's not something like that. I think

there's more hope like are people like you and your friends

but also peekpeople in Hackney - people in Hackney in terrible

conditions who nonetheless are contributing to society. We

leave it there, thank you. David Cameron also said

riots had shown the worst in us and some of the best in us. Communities

really have come together to clean up, to protect themselves and to

help each other. We have been to two very different communities to find

To cries of "England!", scores of To cries of "England!", scores of

To cries of "England!", scores of self-appointed defenders process

self-appointed defenders process self-appointed defenders process

through a north London suburb last through a north London suburb last

To cries of night and these are the guardians

Eltham in London. These are people - looters, if you going to come round

here, this is what you get. SHOUTING.

Also courtesy of YouTube, some townspeople on the move in Enfield,

We are the Enfield army. We are here We are the Enfield army. We are here

for one reason, to stick up for our families. My girlfriend

are sitting at home. I'm here to protect them. We are here to help

the police. We do believe, don't we lads, that there ain't enough of

them. There's too much going too many different areas. They

Enfield was the scene of Enfield was the scene of

Enfield was the scene of disturbances on Monday. A huge

disturbances on Monday. A huge disturbances on Monday. A huge

Enfield was the scene warehouse belonging to a music

company was burnt to the ground. To the casual onlooker Enfield is a

peaceable market town on the fringes of London, a good place to live, and

so it is most of the time, but there are a few clues here

the recent troubling events in town. Extra police patrols, discreet

beefed up security in some including pubs, and there has even

been a prayer vigil here evening.

This man wasn't one of the so-called Enfield Army but he says he did

some people together in case of an attack on a petrol station next to

his estate. REPORTER: Why not just leave it to the police? That's

job. You can't always rely on the police and when the police arrive,

if they arrive at all, all they are going to do is exacerbate

problem. You know what I they are going to do is criminalise

the youth, all they are going to do is perpetuate what's going on. As I

said before, these people are not very high up on the ladder and would

benefit much more from a slap round the ear and being sent home to their

parents than they would from a criminal record. In the event

never had to put his plans into effect but, if he had, would he have

broken the law? How far of the public go to

themselves and hair communities? - their communities? If

knowledge of a criminal offence can potentially arrest someone. If

you have merely suspicion and it's not a reasonable suspicion, no, you

cannot. In terms of having a weapon, if you face imminent threat you can

arm yourself but you cannot bring a weapon with you unless there is

imminent threat that you genuinely believe is out there. Members

the Sikh community in West London were sending out a pretty clear

signal last night that they were prepared to defend their temple by

force if it came to it. As absolute last resort, you have

swords, the devices and symbols your faith? We do, and I think

sword sometimes can become emotive. What we say is it is an article of

faith for us. We would use that as last resort and thankfully it has

never come to that and we hope and pray it does not come

that so I think that the sight of our community being together and

strong and being here will put any persons who want to feel that they

want to come and disrespect our place of worship, will be enough to

put them off, and I think that to an extent that has been shown

is working. What we are saying, are very peaceful and peace-loving

and we want to come together as a community, but we are prepared to

make sure that our place of worship is respected. The Sikhs have been

working closely with the police. But the Met say others who have been

tempted to take the law into their own hands have been diverting police

resources away from pursuing looters.

In an increasingly crowded field of In an increasingly crowded field of

amateurs offering their services in the area of public order,

English Defence League were out in southeast London last night.

these are local people, these are patriots who have come out to

their area. So the EDL has come down, about 50 of us to goad

down, about 50 of us to down, about 50 of us to guide them

and make sure it isn't out of order. This is Ealing and a man here

remains seriously ill in hospital. In the past hour, Scotland Yard has

released CCTV images of a man it describes as a strong suspect in

assault. Earlier, a retired GP here told us at that he and his

had been prepared to home. We got shutters on the front

door, we've got good locks and everything. We will shut everything

in and they said: we already armed ourselves, we've taken Will's golf

clubs. I said I think if one actually is pretty solid and says:

look, we are three very strong guys and we are not prepared to have you

invade our privacy, just get out of here. We recognise our society is

so broken. After an extraordinary few days in London, Enfield

residents offer their prayers for calm on the streets. Action over

and abusive that doesn't necessarily have - action over and above that

doesn't necessarily have the Met's blessing.

I am joined by Constable Paul I am joined by Constable Paul

Deller and by Patrick Hayes who joined a group defending

this week. Why did you do it? I was reporting on the situation but

I very much like the people on that kind of anti-riot group. I was faced

with a situation on Monday where was too scared to leave my house,

was watching the situation on telly and really I was faced with a

situation where for now four there has been a complete failure of

the police to take any control the situation. You've had what are

effectively just anihilistic childish thugs setting light to

property, putting peoples lives in very serious danger and people feel

they can't trust the police anymore. The police are now telling

groups such as in Enfield they now need to go home and put faith in the

police but where were the police when people really needed them?

Everybody knows the stress police officers have been under in

the past few days but that is a fair point, is it not? If the police

can't be there or aren't there then people will do it for themselves?

Into it is a fair point and obviously anybody can defend their

own property from attack if they need to but we would be res sent for

these groups to take it further start patrolling the streets as a

vigilante group or homemade militia to confront groups of rioters

because that would lead to a breakdown in law and order

completely. Do you see that point? What I saw

last night was members of the local community, many were white working

class, but we had a range of people from different ethnicities who

basically felt they didn't be cooped up inside their homes

anymore and wanted to go out and do something. But you are describing

it from the inside. If you are walking on the streets

on the outside of that group and you see 20, 30, 40 blokes perhaps armed

with cricket bats or something and you are not part of that

would look like you are threatening, even if the motives are not?

Certainly in Enfield there were no weapons last night on display. The

sense I got was that the community were broadly supportive,

blowing horns and coming out of shops and fire stations and garages.

What about the accusations that people from far right groups are

capitalising on this? One of things that - I take things on face

value, so I went there yesterday really speak to people and

because I felt a sense of anger and frustration that things weren't

getting done. One of the things that angered me was the knee-jerk

reaction that if you have 100 white working class people out on the

streets then necessarily they are going to be influenced by the far

right or they are going to become thugs. So they weren't there? There

may have been a couple of individuals but I didn't get the

sense - there were no racist chants there and people were genuine, they

were talking about football, about normal everyday things. There is

this attitude from the chattering classes in particular that

group of working class, white working class people now who get

together are just going to be right wing authoritarian thugs. There

seems to be no alternative. you have the right to

own property but if the best do that is to defend your community

and we are all in favour of communities apparently, what's

with that? It's how far you the defence of your community within

the law. What we don't want to see is a group of white middle class

people as has been to the streets. Is that different to

any other gang? We've just had a discussion about gang culture and

that's what we don't want to see. We would like to see these numbers

police officers on the streets of London every night but we can't

sustain that. Do you think it adds to your workload when people turn

out like this, is that saying? It can do yes because

members of the public don't whether it's a good gang or a bad

gang. We would like police to deal with all of the calls we

get. Resources will be cut. We heard tonight the debate about that.

are going to lose numbers. will be less police officers out

there and we don't want vigilante groups to replace us. Sorry, we are

going to have to leave it there. One of the big puzzles is exactly

what drove the what drove the looters: greed,

thuggery, complete lack of any moral sense? Others see different lessons

from social breakdown, poverty, including poverty of expectations

and moral chaos behind the scenes of the last few days.

# This morning I woke up in a curfew # That's why we are gonna be

# That's why we are gonna be # That's why we are gonna be

# This morning I # burnin' and a lootin' tonight #

MUSIC: "Burnin' And Lootin'" by Bob Marley.

Marley. Marley.

MUSIC: "Burnin' And To talk about this I'm joined by

former speech writer to Cameron who wrote the so-called

hug-a-hoodie speech and also Guardian columnist Zoe Williams.

You mentioned today the looters were brought up in erratic and bad

discipline. Bad families, is the core of your argument?

they are themselves the product after dysfunctional society and

Prime Minister said position of our community are sick and that's a fair

and accurate criticism. It's harsh but we need to speak harshly. There

is a lack of the moral language which sustains a society -

goes through generations? Yes, and the heart of the problem is to

with the upbringing of children I wouldn't blame parents

for that. They themselves occupy culture and community and all of

are ultimately responsible for the way our nation's children behave.

Zoe you wrote also today but were talking about among other

shopping riots and a glorified mugging. Did you see this as the

have-notes just grabbing something? There is the authoritarian

which says it's a sense of entitlement, these people

sense of responsibility, they think only of what you should do for

and at the other end of the you have the argument that they are

the product of a brutalised poverty in which they see all this

they will never afford it, there is endemic unemployment, they have

their noses rubbed in it and can see no kind of consequence. You do

many people, especially in the criminological community who occupy

the bang centre who say there might be a problem in the criminal justice

system, it might be too lenient but the fact is how could you have a

sense of a lot to lose if you have anything to lose? Is part of it

as some say dependency other words that you expect - and

also entitlement culture, you are owed something and you

take it if you can't get it? Yes, and the worst of that is there is no

gratitude. a reliance on the state or sense of

belonging, it breeds the opposite, resentment against the society which

thinks you are worth 100 fortnight. So yes, there is

genuine problem with the fact that people are better off out of

They don't want to get into work, don't even want to start climbing

the ladder out to work because they lose their housing. Can I raise the

issue of unemployment here because it really bothers me. Anybody

right says: it should pay to work. Of course, but when unemployment is

the highest since records began in 1992 I don't think you can

legitimately say these people to be shown the benefits of a job.

Nevertheless, we are drawing in immigrants to do the jobs that we

won't do. I totally understand and agree with the problem - I don't

think that's the same You are not saying jobs these 17 or

18-year-olds can get are being taken by Polish people and even if it were

were the case, that would be to do with wage settlements not being high

enough. There is a genuine with a lack of belief that work is a

root for you. I agree that's part to do with lack of supply of

jobs young people are able or to do but there is also a cultural

input into their childhood tells them there is no point in

trying to work because this isn't something that will do them well -

I think that's an extreme reading though. When you say there aren't

jobs for you how are you to say don't believe in having a job if the

job isn't there for you to reject? There needs a culture of work

that requires jobs to be there, I totally understand, however there

a supply and demand side of this equation and we are not supplying

the economy with people who are prepared and want to work. Can I

inject a wider note here which is, you talked about this kind of

culture where you talked about bling culture earlier in

this evening, but if you watch the news at any time in the past two

three years and you look at the financial news today, at bankers'

salaries and so on, you might conclude that our whole society is

run on the greed principle? I that is right. What I do now is run

a charity working with prisoners and ex-offenders and we have a dinner

we do it every Wednesday night - every week we have this discussion

and every week the point is made: why should we do the right

when there is this culture of greed and consumption at the top?

agree with it. I think the bankers work hard and deserve to be well

paid. Whether they are paid the right amount, I don't know, but -

What about being held to account a huge financial disaster though?

The extent to which the bankers are personally responsible is perhaps

debate for another week than this one. He might as well, we've talked

about everything else. Quite, but there is this sense that our society

is too radically split and there is an unprivilegable gulf and that the

MPs have their hands in the till, the bankers are ripping us

that is a terrible thing culturally. I don't think the gulf is

unbridgeable. There is good evidence to show that when society is unequal

as it is at the moment and people at the top are earning 248 times what

people at the bottom are earning, that has a number of negative

consequences, one of which is family breakdown, another is social unrest.

These are not unbridgeable issues. All you have to do is address the

financial equality. You can't just let it ride. OK, my priority

not be financial equality or inequality, it would be improving

the local social relationships young people grow up in. I agree

there's a macroeconomics aspect to that and a story about equality

which we could address but most directly it's the environment. But

all the things which you would interrupt family bonding and empathy

such as absent parents, drug addiction, poverty, all of these

spring from social inequality. think they also spring from a large

centralised state which produces these mass entitlements

standardisations and totally disempowers people from communities

they belong to. That isn't evidenced. You can believe that but

I think it would be better approach the things that you have

evidence to approach. Thank both very much.

One other huge story this week which One other huge story this week which

has been swamped by our domestic difficulties is the market meltdown

on the world economy. With the latest from New York I'm joined by

our business correspondent Michelle Fleury. What has been happening

there? Well, US stocks followed Europe's lead and they started off

lower. We saw wild swings in the final hour of trading on the

floor of the New York Stock Exchange with the Dow Jones losing more than

100 points in the final few minutes to close down over 500 points lower.

Part of what's driving this as far as we can tell is fears of another

global banking crisis. Now, people obviously last week are at the

beginning - or at the beginning of this week were worried about

America's credit rating. focus has shifted to France and

whether or not that country's credit rating will be downgraded. The major

ratings agency has ratings agency has don't foresee

that, certainly not at the moment, but that didn't reassure

Is the outlook unrelieved gloom? was on the floor of

Stock Exchange a bit earlier talking to traders and a lot of them are

scratching their heads, saying: look, there is this huge degree

fear at the moment. Yes, the risks are real for sure, of a global

recession, or at least sort of of potential recession here

United States, but nonetheless what's driving the markets right now

is just this desire not to hold anything they perceive to be risky.

They Don want to hold onto anything for too long and that's why you are

seeing these very much.

Tomorrow morning's front page. Daily Mail has the grieving father's

voice of sanity. Extraordinary dignity of Tariq Jahan talking about

the death of his son which described in the Mail as a race

murder of three young Asians which "sends riot city to boiling point".

The Telegraph has our sick society. Looters in court include a grammar

assistant. Riots,

assistant. Riots, Cameron

assistant. Riots, Cameron under

assistant. Riots, Cameron under attack,

Johnson calls for a U-turn in police numbers.

Pressure to scrap police cuts as Pressure to scrap police cuts as

Pressure to scrap police cuts as Birmingham mourns its dead is

Birmingham mourns its dead is Birmingham mourns its dead is

Pressure to scrap theguardian's front page and the

pictures of the three young killed.

The FT has focus on the crisis turns to France, and a rather

gloomy looking of England, Mervyn King,

front page. That's all from Newsnight tonight. We will be back

with more tomorrow. Keep safe. Goodnight.

Hello. Some heavy rain through the Hello. Some heavy rain through the

night across parts of the country. The biggest concern will be in

Scotland over the next few days. Could see surface flooding, even

river flooding across central eastern areas.

Heavy rain will work southwards and Heavy rain will work southwards and

Heavy rain will work southwards and eastwards. Still persistent rain in

eastwards. Still persistent rain in eastwards. Still persistent rain in

Heavy rain will southern Scotland and the northeast

but lighter than it will have through the morning. Some

showers elsewhere. A few brighter breaks into the afternoon on that

southwest wind and temperatures into the low 20s.

For the southwest and Wales, we will For the southwest and Wales, we will

see wetter conditions in morning. Afternoon, some lighter,

patch I did not showers. flow across the southern half of the

UK, some mist and hill fog possible. Northern Ireland, into the

afternoon, brighter in the south, wetter in the north. The northern

half of Scotland, the keen wind will be easing so it should be

Across the north, a difference in Across the north, a difference in

temperatures but rain should be lighter and patchier. Further south