11/08/2011 Newsnight

David Cameron declares a fightback against looters, the sick society,

and anyone who dares say the police shouldn't be cut. As suspects'

homes are raided, the Prime Minister says police tactics were

wrong and there were simply not enough officers on the street.

truth is that the police have been facing a new and unique challenge.

With different people doing the same thing, a sickly looting in

different places, but all at the same time.

We ask the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, if it's politics that's

failed the people. Are parents to blame for failing to

discipline their children? We hear from the father of a 16 year old

accused of burglary in the riots. Yes, it is his responsibility. How

can I be to blame for something he is doing if I am asleep?

Can parents like him be doing more? A pop star, a former Deputy Mayor

of London, and an expert in family policy give us their views.

And diversity behind the turmoil - Good evening. And so today, the

fightback from David Cameron in the House of Commons in that rare

recall of parliament. The PM seemed far removed from the Husky Dog

Hugging of his early years as leader. Today, the message was

unambiguous and it was tough. He pledged to crack down on gangs, to

confiscate rioters' assets and even to offer police new powers to curb

the use of social media and messaging. And he also pointed to

initial failings of the police, saying the tactics they had used,

hadn't worked. But what of the increasing calls from the

opposition to rethink cuts to the police? Those were categorically

rejected. Our political correspondent, David Grossman,

reports. The riots, we have been told, were

pointless, a declaration of will power. Looters trying to show

everyone who is in charge. The same could be said about the recall of

Parliament, they are not debating legislation today or will they have

a vote, it is all about sending a message about who is in charge. The

rise in police numbers from 3,000 to 16,000 officers on the streets

of London since the Prime Minister came back from holiday seems to

have worked, helped by the rain, nature's gentle water cannon. In

the X -- in the unexpected august House of Commons, the Prime

Minister said what he thought were the causes. It is preposterous for

anyone to suggest anyone rooting in Tottenham at the weekend and three

days later in Salford were doing so because of the death of Mark Duggan

-- looting. The young people stealing and burning shops, that

was not politics or protests, it was theft. He outlined a series of

measures to help tackle future disturbances. The army could be

used to guard government and other buildings to free up police and the

law on face masks will be changed to allow police officers to order

anyone at to remove a hoard or mask if they think it is used with

criminal intent. And there will be a review of sentences but this will

not affect anyone involved in the riots. And there will be help for

victims, money to help rebuild businesses and relief from taxes.

there is a major problem in our society with children not knowing

the difference between right and wrong. This is not about poverty

but culture, a culture that glorified violence, shows

disrespect to authority and says everything about right but nothing

about responsibilities. The Labour leader -- the Labour leader echoed

the Prime Minister's statement, at no repeat of the charge some in his

party have made that the government's cuts were the cause of

the riots. For Ed Miliband, it was cut going forward that worried him.

It has been in stark reminder that police on our streets make

communities safer and people feel safer. Given the priority the

public attached to a visible and active police presence, does the

Prime Minister understand why they would think it is not right he goes

ahead with the cuts to police numbers he has planned? Will he

think again about this decision? was just the first of 20 MPs to

raise the question of cuts to the police budget. Now is not the time.

Fewer is the wrong policy at the wrong time for our society.

time I spent in Croydon it was incredibly powerful to hear about

the immense frustration and anger those shopkeepers and householders

and tenants felt. But the problem was that the police were not on the

street, the problem was not about police budgets in four years' time

but about the availability of the police right now. There are 32,000

officers in the mat and we needed more on the streets more quickly

and more to Croydon, it is about now and not the budgets of the

future -- in the Metropolitan Police. This is where the party

political battle has caught fire. Over the next four years, the

coalition will cut the police budget by 6% in cash terms, but

factor in inflation and it is more like 20%. Labour says you cannot

make savings like that without affecting the number of officers

for frontline duties. The coalition says you can use in deficiencies,

and both have big official report to back up their case. The

government relies on the report of Tom Windsor which found 43% of rank

and file officers keep normal office hours, unlike 100% of

rioters. More officers are available on a Monday morning found

Saturday night and the government says that must change. The

opposition quits heavily from a report by her Majesty's inspector

of constabulary which says the cuts will see a reduction of 16,200

police officers, but 30% of that have already been lost. And that

only takes the total down to what it was in 2004. But the report is

also pretty dismissive of the efficiency savings. Some forces, it

says, claim the costs will exceed the savings. The Prime Minister's

journey this week is not just his hasty flight back from Italy. He

has also gone on an ideological trick. His previous criticism of

CCTV is now apparently gone and he once promised to sweep away the

whole rotten edifice of Labour's surveillance sake -- state.

concerns about publishing these photographs. Bringing these

criminals to justice! Ed Miliband has stopped his party indulging in

the instincts of some to blame the riots on the government's economic

policy. In his critique of future police cuts, he has found a strong

narrative and it is now down to who the public believes.

Well, David Cameron has said that the riots showed that pockets of

our society are sick. Does Labour leader Ed Miliband agree? I caught

up with him a short while ago to find out. I would not put it that

way. I think there are people in our society who did appalling and

sickening things and I have been horrified by what happened, and

never thought it would come to this in Britain and it would happen. I

was in Peckham where some of the riots happened and were surrounded

by eight the majority of people who were good and hated what was

happening as much as me and you and David Cameron, so you cannot

describe part of our country as sick but some of the people and

what they have done in sick in what they did. And there were problems

in society we need to tackle. a curious echo of what Tony Blair

said in 1993, he talked of part of the country being sick, did the

Labour government failed to tackle it? The Labour government made a

difference to the country. One of the inspiring things was being in

Manchester this week and seen for thousands of young people who came

out to help with the clean-up, that is a sign of good things in society.

I said a few months ago we have done a lot to improve the fabric of

society but we have not necessarily tackled issues around affix, that

includes responsibility. Not just the rioting and looting and what we

saw this week, but other issues at the top of us -- at the top of our

society. And at the top of society, do you accept some of that

responsibility for being for party in power when these children and

these looters were growing up under Labour? Of course I accept

responsibility. I said in my response today you cannot lay the

blame at any single government and that is really important. Good

causes are complex, I think we made a positive difference to the

country but we have to accept out - - except our share of

responsibility. It is individual criminal acts but it is people who

think they have nothing to lose from doing first and everything to

gain from stealing their television, destroying people's lives and

businesses, appalling events. New Labour fostered that

acquisitive nature and were relaxed about people getting Ralphie --

getting wealthy. We were wrong to say that. You have got to send a

message about the culture of responsibility throughout society.

I am not going to say that bankers are like the looters, that is

ridiculous. But the echo of a lack of responsibility we have seen at

the top of society from some people in the banking community, from MPs,

even phone hacking, that ethic is something that we need to stamp out.

We need responsibility throughout our society from top-to-bottom.

it responsible for your deputy leader to list specific coalition

policies, cuts to EMAs and tuition fees and 0.2 that as being

connected to the riots? I saw Newsnight and Harriet made it clear

there was no excuse for the violence. She was linking them.

me give you be definitive review. I will not lay the blame at the door

of this Government and say it happened because of cuts de EMAs

that is too simplistic. She did. She did not, but let's not argue

about what she said. It is too complicated to say it is just the

blame of one government or policy, Barak issues of responsibility. But

also of opportunity. Her -- there are issues. Of course it is also

right to say that when people think the best they can do in society is

stealing stuff and there are opportunities... If you are making

massive cuts, there was also the potential for this sort of revolt

against that, those with awards -- those were the words of York

mayoral candidate, Ken Livingston. The first thing he said it was

order needed to be restored and there was no excuse for the

violence. If he said the riots were caused by a particular policy, I do

not agree with that. Where any part of the riots a revolt against these

cuts? -- were any. That is too simplistic. The responsibility is

not to jump to knee-jerk conclusions from left or right.

That is what Ken Livingston has been doing! He said a lot of things.

The responsibility of us, and this is why I think there needs to be a

public inquiry, because we need to hear from the law-abiding people

and we need to reflect on the issues -- to hear from. Inequality,

responsibility. Societies where people do not have a stake are

likely to be places where social disorder happens. Was Harriet

Harman pulled up for what she said, and Ken Livingston? Yes? Both of

them are Queer there can be no excuse for it and they have to make

it clear -- both of them have to make it clear that. You are talking

today about police cuts going forward, do you think if numbers

are cut back to where they were five years ago, it would be an

apocalyptic scenario? I am level- headed and will not predict that.

But it is very important for the public ferry safety on the streets

and a visible police presence, we have seen the effect of that -- and

there is safety. It is not right to make cuts to police officers and

the public do not want that. It is their responsibility to look again

at that issue. I am very surprised the Prime Minister has not agreed

to a public inquiry. We cannot have the calamitous events of the last

few days and say we will not have an in-depth look. Do you think that

the cuts David Cameron is proposing put the British public at risk?

not going to put it that way. Let me put it in my way, I think the

cuts that have been made of very bad for society. So we are more at

risk? I will not save there are going to be more riots, come off

it! Of the public more vulnerable as a result of these cuts? What I

carried out, safety on the streets, the next generation doing better

than the last, the chances for young people, are set back by the

cuts. I am not going to play a word game. It is not responsible of need

to say there will be riots because of these cuts. People want to know

what difference this makes. People are interested in safety on the

street and there is more likely to be safety a police numbers are

maintained, of course that is right. So if numbers are not maintained,

they are not as safe? That is a word games. Safety is paramount and

of course you are more likely to have safety if police numbers on

As we have heard, David Cameron made it clear today he believed the

police tactics during the riots were wrong. A charge I put to the

man who represents chief police officers, Sir Hugh Orde. No I don't.

The police faced an unprecedented situation, not just in London, but

across the country. They were truly unique circumstances. What the

service did, as it always does is learn and respond with incredible

speed. We went, as the Prime Minister acknowledged, from 6,000

officers in London, for example, to the most officers deployed ever on

one event, to 16,000 the following night. At that point, you saw,

while the violence continued and moved around the country to

different locations, the force responded, I think magnificently.

And the officers put huge effort into protecting communities and

more importantly protecting life. What would you say then there are

far too police deployed on the streets and the tactics, bluntly,

were not working? I don't possess foresight, neither do my chief

police officer colleagues. This was a new set of circumstances. The

trick there is to make sure you respond and learn quickly. One of

the great strengths of an independent police service, the

like of which we have in this country, is we do that. We are

transparent. We do learn quickly and we pull together. The leaders

of this service, all of whom understand the work line, because

they have been there, work tirelessly to support each other in

ACPO to make sure we have the staff at the right places. The tactics

decided by chief officers and their staff, being put in and the model

of policing sustained and the robust policing tactics we choose

to adopt delivered. Why did it take politicians coming back from

holiday to get the police to do what they already have the power to

do. Theresa May, for example, specifically said she had ordered

the cancellation of all police leave. The Home Secretary has no

power whatsoever to order the cancellation of police leave. The

fact that politicians choose to come back is an irrelevance in

terms of a tactic which is then developing. The vehicle tactics you

saw, the more robust policing tactics you saw were not a function

of political interference. They were a function of the numbers

being available to allow the chief constables to change their tactics

to the number of staff they had. know that cuts to police numbers

are coming. Do you believe it will make people less safe? We are, as a

police service, we are determined to keep people as safe as we can,

with the resources we have been given. It is true there are cuts of

20% to policing over this current spending period. Inevitably and

predictablely that will lead to less police officers. We have been

very clear about that. It will lead to less police staff. Therefore,

it's more difficult. Her Majesty's inspectorate reported the

leadership of the service has minimised the impact on the front

line by taking people out of other places. But the chief inspectors

acknowledged in years three and four of the spending period that

becomes far more difficult. We need to have some very honest

conversations with Governments about what we stop doing if we are

to maintain front-line service delivery at current levels.

Orde, thank you. Joining me now is the deputy leader of the Liberal

Democrats, Simon Hughes. Let's start there. This seems to be where

the political line has been drawn on police numbers. Should the

public be concerned about these cuts? Yes, they should be. They

should ask the question, will it affect the service, will it affect

the number of people on the street? I have always taken the view you

don't get a direct read across between numbers of police officers

and effective policing. It is how you deploy them. One example,

admitted by the police, this last week has revealed when you needed

them to be dealing with riots and demonstrations, actually most of

them couldn't do that, because only about one in five, of what are

called level two officers, who are trained to have riot control gear

and head gear. The rest had to be withdrawn. That is not satisfactory.

You need most police officers to be able to deal with that if needed.

That is an organisational thing you are talking about. Will the cuts of

20% in real terms make a difference? Of course it might make

a difference. The Government so far has been very firm. It is saying

for budgetary reasons we had the Chancellor re-enforced today, we

have to stand firm on public expenditure. The police will try

and adapt. You may well get a much more different type of police

service. If you have more volunteers, more civilians doing

more things uniformed people do. You could get as good policing the

numbers we will have, which is less than numbers. You say you could get.

Do you think we will? It depends how well the police respond.

you putting that to Nick Clegg as a concern? Would you like him to....

Of course I have registered that it is a concern. I understand the

Government's position. The Government are saying at the moment,

look we've set our course for the next four years. We have to get the

economy under control. I accept that. Nick Clegg is not looking at

this as an issue, despite all the questions, post the last set of

elections, going your own way and showing your own spine, he is not.

I have come from a party with wr we ask you -- argue you need the

police out there, visible. Of course it's an issue. Nick Clegg is

our party leader and the Government understand that. There's one other

issue that clearly.... Do you think they'll change their mind on this

one? It is on the agenda. The difficulty for Labour in arguing it

is that they don't have any alternative as to where the money

would come from. They would have had cuts too. They would have

reduced the budget for the Home Office. It is not as if they are in

a strong position to argue.... coalition partners are the

Conservatives. Do you think they are having a tremor now and

thinking for political reasons for public reasons this will not look

good? There'll have to be a review of policing in England after the

events of this week. The Home Affairs Select Committee is the

right place to start. They may come up with recommendations on this

issue. I think the Government, an intelligent Government will want to

hear the evidence from the police and the public. At the moment the

public don't think the problems were caused by police cuts. They

think they were by criminality and gangs. We have to watch this space.

I want to get you on a few areas that David Cameron was talking

about. He was talking about fast- tracking people through the courts.

More use of CCTV. Nothing more of that edifice of Labour surveillance

state and a draconian sounding plan to interfere with private messaging

services. This must be uncomfortable territory for you?

live in one of the areas affected. I was out there the other night

seeing what was happening. I take the view you have to have curfews.

You have to have further powers to require people to take off their

face coverings. You have to ask questions about whether you can

just allow all the mobile phone companies.... Checking people's

private messaging services, this sound like something that would

come out of Iran. That is not what is being argued. With the co-

operation with the companies you address the question as to whether

on occasions there could be interventions. We are not there yet.

One last thing, we have to make sure that young people and the

youth services are supported. There'll be a debate about making

sure we do that better. Parents and young people need to be better

supported too. Thank you. Thank you for coming in. If your

child return with a brand new pair of trainers or a PlayStation, or if

you don't know where they were last night, question them. A rallying

call from community leaders to parents in the light of Britain's

worst rioting for decades. How many have scared to pick them up on

their actions or who did not think they had done wrong? Are

politicians right to focus on how we are raising our children? Our

correspondent has spent the day in Tottenham, speaking to those who

live there. There's no more room for it.

These children need a good whipping. A good whipping.

No respect from the parents, no understanding. Most of the things

you learn in life, most of them are from my friends. When you are

outside on the road, it's different. There's no parents about.

Government t police, even the X Factor have been blamed for the

unrest this week. Now politicians have settled on something else. So

now bad parenting is coming into it. Can you blame looting across the

country on mums and dads? There's one way to find out and it's not by

speaking to the parents themselves. This youth club in Tottenham helps

young people get out of trouble and stay out of trouble. These

youngsters were not involved with the riots, but they say they easily

could have been. There's no respect from the parents. There's no

understanding. No relationship. No communication. That is why they

think we are free to do what we want. Does that come from the

parents? It is the parent's fault. Obviously it comes down to your

primary education, which is your parents. You live with your parents

four or five. Then you go to school. School does not teach you that at

that young age. If they haven't embedded it into you young they

cannot expect it from you as an adolescent. Some young people are

oblivious to everything around them and they are about themselves and

they will have no regard for anything and will go against you,

regardless of what you taught them. I was one of those kids. My mum

would tell me. I wouldn't listen. I wanted to do my own thing. My mum

raised me the best she can, really. I don't really like with parents,

like when you're inside you're kind of different with your parents.

Like you're more good, if you know what I mean. When you are outside,

there's no parents about. So you kind of do what you want really.

You have peer pressure. It's not just what parents taught you. Most

of the things you learn in life, you learn from your friends. You

learn from school, from your association. Do you think the

greater influence is actually your friends rather than your parents?

Yeah, because I mean, like, like, I would say when you're at home you

only show about 30% of who you really are. When you're outside,

the parents don't know what goes on outside. Big emphasis of the

previous Labour Government was the Respect agenda and schemes to help

parents and children. The young people I spoke to said schemes -

what schemes? Do you know if your mum had any help from Government

initiatives when you were younger? No. She didn't have nothing to help.

Nothing. She never had no help, really. She just done what she knew

what her mother told her what to do and stuff like that. She just done

what she could really. Nothing direct. In summer they had summer

schools open. Like boxing courses open. Stuff like that. Nothing

direct or personal. What can they help them with? It a

east not going to change the kids behaviour. If you are 14-15 you

want to miss behave, what can your mum or dad say to you? When you got

yourself out of violence that was not to do with a Government

initiative. That was all you? was all me, really. They never done

nothing for me. No Government help, minimal parenting and for some of

these young people trouble in education.

I got expelled from school at 12. I was expelled from three schools by

12. You got excluded too? I was excluded from school. I also got

arrested. I was just young and silly, if you know what I mean.

Just going out, beating up people. Did your mum teach you that wasn't

the right thing to do? She tried to. She tried her hardest to, but she

also knows how it was because she was... She let me learn in my own

time f you know what I mean. She didn't pressure me. She knows how

the young atmosphere is, like. not too much discipline? Not too

much, no. Sacha takes me to meet her mother in the council house

they share with some of her four sisters. She says she wants to be a

tough parent, but the Government won't let her.

No. There's no bad parents. The Government, they give the kids the

rights. Takeaway the rights from the parents and give it to the kids.

So even if the parent are talking to their kids, you know. Do you

feel disempowered? Yeah. It's the same message we're hear

from teachers, police and community leaders. The question is; where did

the power go? Is it too late to get it back?

So how much are parents to blame for what has been happening.

Joining me now the pop star Jamelia, who grew up in Birmingham in a

single-parent family. Ray Lewis who works with young children at the

Eastside Young Leaders Academy. Dalia Ben Galim from the IPPR.

Thanks to you all for coming in. It is great to have you here. Jamelia,

talk us through, you grew up in one of the areas, actually closely

related to some of the rioting this week. Do you think a lot comes down

to parenting? I think it's very easy to blame parents. I think it's

- the main issue is society as a whole. I feel we are very

segregated. We are not paying attention to what our neighbours

are up to. We are not taking any responsibility. I think it's very

easy to live in a bubble and to think that somebody else's problem

is their problem. But a parent, particularly parents in the inner

city, they are suffering. They are going through, they are going

through so much. They are finding things very hard. My mum was on

benefits and I can tell you, for her to try and elevate our social

and economic situation, she had to work. Which meant that it left us,

some of the time to fend for ourselves. And that is what happens

in a lot of these inner city...: How do you get out of it? You are

an award-winning singer-songwriter. It might have been a different

story for you. What do you put it I think there are so many things

that cause children to act in the way that we have seen. We need to

stop seeing this as someone else's problem. As we have seen, these

parents everyone is trying to blame, their children are affecting

everyone, not just the best situation. That is what needs to

stop. It is not someone else Poznan problem. We need to work together

and be a community, get together and work on this problem and how we

can change this. When you listen to this, is this essentially about it

relationship of children and parents? Or do the bankers have

something to answer for, the phone hackers? It is really interesting.

The diversity has shown it is not a particular group of people. And as

Jamelia Has been talking about, it is an issue in society. The IPPR

has done research around parents and it shows support around

universal child care to allow parents to work and know their

children are learning, flexible working opportunities, to build

those quality relationships between parents and children and that wider

community. Those are the policies we need to think about to broaden

out and tackle these challenges. Ray Lewis, parents always get the

blame, whatever they are doing. think parents do get a hard time

and in some sense that is understandable, because the home is

where a child spends most of their time so we expect that socialising

agents to be more effective. What is more important and one of the

things Airport the Mayor of London for his we do not want to put the

blame on people, it is important to make a difference -- one of the

things I applaud. He has had a drive... What do you make of the

woman who wants to be tougher on the film and wants to have more

discipline but says the government would not let her? If we are going

to look in the political sense, I am pleased that Ed Miliband took

some share of responsibility, because so much of Labour policy

has disabled and December Howard families. So we have a culture

where people are afraid to discipline children -- and this

empowered families. Some of what we have seen on the streets in recent

times of the manifestation of failed policies of liberalism.

state that became too big and welfare that became too easily

obtainable? I am not sure if that is the analysis, other things are

happening. If you think about the long-term youth unemployed, that is

another factor. It does not explain or condoned the riots but is a

reasoned and something we have to think about. It has been rising and

one in four young people have been out of work for 12 months, said

that has an effect on people's job prospects. -- so that has. Jamelia,

give me the free things that would make things different? Would you

talk about domestic abuse, and gang violence, crime? We need to start

with the children, particularly those who do not have male and

female role models. It is important for every child to get that and we

need a social strategy to provide that for every child. Is the

government ready to say you should get more if you are a married

couple? Marriage does not have anything to do with it. I grew up

without a male role model and in my adult life, I have paid for it. Now

I have two daughters and I am a single mother and it makes a

difference to me to make sure I have positive male role models

around my children as well as female. My mother was female

orientated, and it caused me issues when I was older. I genuinely

believe it has helped my own children. Jamelia Is talking about

not realising that until she was growing up, this is the problem for

politicians that you make policy decisions that turn out to have

completely failed degeneration 15 years later? That is the case and

these are all our children and we will pay or profit from what they

have become. In each of the areas where there has been crime and

rioting, we have seen the Mayor of London running a listening campaign

through community conversations trying to hear and understand what

is going on in people's lives. And a role-model scheme he is rolling

out in London will make a difference. Thank you very much,

and there are of a mayoral candidate, we should say! -- the

O'Hair are other mayoral candidates. -- there are. So when there's a 12-

year-old boy going through the courts for looting a bottle of wine,

when there's a 14-year-old girl similarly accused of nicking a pair

of designer jeans, what are we supposed to make of what this says

about our society? What kind of kids are we raising in this

country? Stephen Smith looks at the profile of some of those involved.

These are some of the criminals who had pleaded guilty in the past two

days two charges arising from disturbances in London and Greater

Manchester. They have been appearing in round the clock

hearings that have been processing scores of defendants. This 22-year-

old appeared at one of the 24 hour sessions, before Westminster

magistrates. He was bailed over charges of violence and racial

harassment. As the court sat beyond regular hours, the 16-year-old

appeared beyond -- appeared before a juvenile court accused of theft

in Croydon. His father, who cannot be identified for legal reasons,

spoke about his son's behaviour. What they are all -- what they are

alleging he has done, I am annoyed of what he has done. I cannot

believe... Are you ashamed? I am not ashamed, I cannot believe he

has done it. To be ashamed is any taking the blame but I cannot tie

him to a bed, I am not allowed to, I cannot hit him, I am not allowed

to, I cannot look him in his room, I am not allowed to. At the things

that parents used to be able to do, they cannot do now -- all the

things. This court has been operating round the clock since the

disturbances. Those expecting to see places like this for of the

underclass, whoever they are, have been in for a shock. Those facing

charges include middle-class people, professionals, undergraduates, the

well-to-do. At various hearings in London and the South of England, a

law student has been accused of violent disorder, the daughter of a

successful businessman has appeared on counts of burglary, and a social

worker has pleaded guilty to stealing a television set after

turning herself into police. When people say comic yes, some got

caught up in the event, it is true. -- when people say, yes.

Circumstances and opportunity are a great motivator. They stood around

and watch it and may have smiled to think the police could not do

anything. But many others were thinking, this is trouble, let me

get out of here. There is not an entirely innocent explanation if

you were not next to a riot for more than two or three minutes and

just stayed there. As police live up to their claims to arrest

suspects and bring them before the courts in short order, details have

emerged from one court about the people in the dock. Of 56 people

appearing yesterday at Camberwell, south-east London, a third were

teenagers, the biggest group in their early twenties. A 5th of

charges were for violent offences, but more than three-quarters were

for burglary. 70% of offences were committed outside the borough where

the accused lived, perhaps indicating gang members travelling

away from their patch to root. In Manchester, a boy of 12 he ran away

from the supermarket with a bottle of wine went to court with his

mother to red-necked burglary and was given a nine-month referral

order. -- to admit burglary. Later, both of them swore at reporters. A

girl of 11, here, it received a similar centres in Nottingham after

admitting she was part of a gang that threw stones at shops, she

said she did not think she would be caught. Order suspects found the

rhetoric was tough in the city's court. A judge told one man

convicted of obstructing police. Let me give you a piece of worldly

Words of advice were not confined to the bench, as a BBC team found

in Manchester when they approached the family of a man who has

admitted burglary. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone,

so... So have the political -- So have the political battlelines been

drawn this week? And who appears to be coming out on top? Joining me

now are Miranda Green, a journalist and former press secretary to Paddy

Ashdown, Nick Watt, Chief Political Correspondent at The Guardian, and

George Pascoe-Watson, former Political Editor of The Sun and now

a partner at Portland Group Communications.

Is this the day Cameron stopped being a Liberal Tory and became a

proper Blue Tory? There is no doubt whatsoever David

Cameron has had a good day and has come back from his holidays and got

a grip on the situation. He has been prime-ministerial. It would be

hard for anybody not to be under these conditions. And the hard

right of the Conservative Party which has been looking more for

some sort of red meat, particularly when it comes to law and order,

will be pleased and satisfied by the substance which David Cameron

came out with today in terms of how he will deal with policing and law

and order. And will this last? difficulty is he is in a coalition

and there will be pressure from the Liberal Democrats and from the

Labour Party he will go on police cuts for a long time. It has the

Prime Minister said, at least cuts is not the reason this happened.

And clearly difficult, uncomfortable territory for the

Liberal Democrats. And we have seen from what Simon Hughes said about

the division. Indeed, I agree very much with George and I think David

Cameron did not have any option than to go in hard when he returned.

As we know from past experiences, one thing the public will not

forgive is a government not in control, presiding over a period of

public disorder. So it is important to assert control as the government.

But the unity shown in Parliament today over condemning what has been

Hammett -- happening as criminality, not describing it to social factors

like Harriet Harman will hold for a while, but there is a big

conversation to be had about society's values and the direction

of the country in the next few years as austerity bites, and these

issues will disrupt the government. When Ed Miliband was basically

saying, yes, it New Labour got things wrong, Peter Mandelson's

quote about the filthy rich was wrong, people look back on those

New Labour ways of dealing with social disorder, they are not in a

great position to fight back on this. Ed Miliband would say this

time last year he was busy burying New Labour so got himself into the

right place. But what is interesting from what she saw with

that interview with Ed Miliband and him in the House of Commons is he

is not going down the Harriet Harman route which he did the other

day of blaming the spending cuts. He is fashioning an argument to say

that we, everyone, is responsible for the lack of responsibility. And

Ed Miliband has been making this argument for some time and at two

levels, he says there is a lack of responsibility at the top of

society. So he was in a good position when the phone hacking row

came along. And in June, he said there was a lack of responsibility

at the bottom of society. It is interesting that two leaders are

both using what has happened as a springboard into what the rest of

the message for the next few months will be. Ed Miliband clearly is

trying to give the impression he cares about the future generations,

that is his big sell. David Cameron is saying to his party, I am a

right wing man when it comes to law and order and not a civil

libertarian, this is my opportunity. David Cameron is now back to the

territory from before the election of a broken society, the Liberal

Democrats not happy. Before the election, he said it was bottom up

and people should take responsibility, today he was

talking about state action. State action on CCTV, the same

philosophy... Is he going to stop talking about the big society?

I do not think he can. There will be solutions within his big society

The language used today is significant. David Cameron talking

about our "sick" sotd. You would never get a Liberal Democrats use -

- society. You would never get a Liberal Democrats using that phrase.

You would not have thought it was fine for one to say oh, CCTV foot -

- footage. As someone who lives in a deprived area in the country, not

just London, how you protect the poor from gangs, this is about

protecting the poorest. It sound like a few of the people we've had

on this evening detect a slight wobble on the whole police cuts

number. Do you think it will change now? I don't think so. I don't

think there's any indication within the Government they will re-think

this at all. This is a numbers game. We are in this position financially.

They can't go back on it. It seems clear to me that the number of

police around over the weekend t problem was they weren't out on the

street. It wasn't that we had too few. We had a classic Simon Hughes

moment today. He is trying to have it both ways. Saying maybe we are

not sure about the police kurts. What happened in the Cabinet? Nick

Clegg stood up, pointed to the intervention, I completely support

these cuts. Thank you for coming in. Let's whisk you through the front

pages. There you go; a concealed youth leaving Manchester

Magistrates Court. Those comments might spring to mind about making

The FT leads on the economic stuff. This is what we are talking about.

That sense that that will not alter Government policy.

That's all from Newsnight tonight. I will be here again tomorrow. From

Hello. A grey, damp, drizzly start tomorrow. Some places will brighten

up. In the west the cloud will thicken. Further outbreaks of rain

for Northern Ireland and western Scot lands. That rain will drift

into north-west England. To the east of the Pennines I'm optimistic

things will brighten up and we could see sunshine across the East

Midlands and south-east. A misty humid day across south-west

England. It will be grey most of the day. Outbreaks of rain for

Devon and Cornwall. It shouldn't be too heavy in Wales, but further

north heavy rain early on in Northern Ireland. The afternoon may

see things turning drier, but only for a time. It will turn wet for

western Scotland. The far north- east should hang on to brightness.

That rain will move across all of Scotland during Friday evening,

leaving behind it Saturday, well some brighter interludes. But

there'll be a fair few showers across northern Britain on Saturday.

It should turn drier during the afternoon on Saturday. As I said,