17/08/2011 Newsnight

A year ago, the Government trumpetted plans for a

rehabilitation revolution, now David Cameron's praising judges for

handing down harsh sentences. But can the system cope with the sea

change. Newsnight has learned that one council is having to use the

Premier Inn hotel chain, to accommodate young offenders on

remand. I'm very much taken aback by this. I don't think the lawyers

or the community at large, when they learn that a local authority

takes into the care and custody young people that the next step for

that young person is say Premier Inn. I will ask the former Home

Secretary, Jack Straw, what he makes of all this. The Work and

Pensions minister says Britain is in the last chance saloon when it

comes to solving this social crisis. But unemployment has gone up today,

and stands at nearly 2.5 million. The Employment Minister is here to

answer criticisms that Britain is not working.

Also tonight, why was Gloucester a charming Cathedral City shaken by

the riots. I have travelled extensively and go to London a lot,

and feel more at threat in Gloucester than any other city in

the country. And is the best way for women to

get ahead, to lose weight and look sexy, a controversial new book

argues so-called erotic capital is an asset females should exploit.

The author is here to argue her Good evening, as of tonight, 1,297

riot-related cases have gone through the courts. And 65% of

those in the dock have been remanded in custody. But can the

prison system cope, and does the justice system, already under the

strain of 25% cuts, have the budget for this sudden spike in cases. It

was only a few months ago that the Justice Secretary, Ken Clarke,

hailed a new rehabilitation revolution, and as described

prisoners in outdated facilities. It turned out before the riots, one

local authority has had to warehouse at least one alleged

offender in a budget hotel chain. I think we are being too lenient.

It is perfectly reasonable for the courts to take the view that these

sentences should be at the tougher end of the spectrum. The mood is

clear, the public wants tough sentences for those involved in

last week's looting. So six months for stealing a bottle of water it

is. And from the Prime Minister, nothing but support for the courts.

I think it is right that we should allow the courts to make decisions

about sentencing. You weren't sitting in the court, I wasn't

sitting in the court, we didn't hear the evidence, they decided in

that court to send a tough sentence and message and it is very good

courts feel able to do. That what happened on the streets was

absolutely appalling behaviour, to send a very clear message that it

is wrong and won't be tolerated is what the criminal justice system

should be doing. How will this square with the Government's long-

term plans to cut the prison population, and the budgets much

courts and Legal Aid. Over the next four years the Ministry of Justice

needs to shed a quarter of its costs to meet Government spending

targets. What's more the Secretary of State for Justice is on record

as saying he doesn't think jail always works. This was the Justice

Secretary in a major speech last year on sentencing reform. Just

banging up more and more people for longer, without actively seeking

toe change them is, in my opinion, what would you expect of Vic

Toryian England. And it is time we dk Victorian England, and it is

time to focus on today's communities. Too often prison has

proved a costly and ineffectual approach that fails to turn

criminals into law-abiding citizens. It was an abrupt change in Tory

policy, rather than the prison works approach of the 1980s, the

new Justice Secretary actually wanted to cut prison numbers by

3,000. The approach is bourne out of philosophy but also cold hard

numbers. To keep a male in prison for a year, costs �40,000, sending

him there costs �30 though in court costs. Currently in England and

Wales there are 8 6,000 people detained at Her Majesty's pleasure,

just 2,000 short of operational capacity. So far there have been

1300 riot-related cases heard, two- thirds of the alleged offenders

have been remanded in custody. In Ealing, one of the centres of the

riots, the local Tory MP believes the Government may need to look

again at its budget cuts to justice. The Prime Minister made it very

clear in the House of Commons last week, when he was asked about this,

that it is for the judges to decide on sentences, if they decide to

send people to prison it is the Government's obligation to provide

prison places for people. How will the Government do that if it needs

to quarter the budget of the ministry? There are other things

being looked at, not just prison place, we are looking at things

like Legal Aid and all sorts of other things as well. Not just

prison places. My view is, if we need to keep for prison places we

need to do that. Today Newsnight has new evidence of the pressures

on the criminal justice system. We have learned that Richmond Council

has used a west London branch of the Premer in Inn, hotel - the

Premier Inn hotel chain to house a prisoner on remand. The council

wouldn't confirm how long the youth stayed there. Wefrpb we asked the

hotel were they aware of the The revelation has shocked a

leading criminal barrister. very much taken aback by this, I

don't think either lawyers or indeed the community at large, when

they learn that a local authority takes into the care and custody

young people, that the next step for that young person is say

Premier Inn, I'm surprised, I put it so far as being flabbergasted to

hear this. Both the Ministry for Justice and the department for

local communities say it is matter for the council.

Balancing the public mood for justice, as well as the budget, is

now the dilemma facing the coalition. But a prison reform

group says we should also be thinking about what works the

Particularly for short prison sentence, versus community

sentences, where there is fair comparison in terms of the type of

person that might be doing the sentence, and the type of offences

they have done, the reoffending rates are sharp, almost two-thirds

will go on to reoffend, half of that on community sentences

reoffend. But that's not what the public

wants for now. The last ten days have seen extraordinary shifts in

the demand for tough crime policies. Whether the Government can deliver

that long-term is a question no-one is answering at the moment. We

asked to speak to someone from the Ministry of Justice, but was told

nobody was available. Joining us now from Manchester is the former

Justice Secretary and Home Secretary, Jack Straw. First of all,

what's your reaction to the news that Richmond council used Premier

Inn, to house an alleged offender on remand. I find it extraordinary,

I'm not sure it is lawful. If an offender whether under 18 or over

18, is remanded in custody there are very strict rules about the

circumstances in which they are kept in a room from which they

can't take any escape, that is certainly not Premier Inn, so

Richmond Council have to do a great deal of explaining. Their silence

this evening, their refusal to offer any explanation of this

practice, underlines the fact that this is an indefensible practice

itself. Is there any situation that you can think that would make it a

justifiable decision? No, I have never heard of this, there are

circumstances in which someone may be remanded on bail, on conditions,

and for example an authority can't find a bail hostel so they put them

somewhere else, an equivalent. In that case they would obviously make

sure there was an arrangement made with the owners of that premises,

which in the case of the hotel hasn't happened. What do you make

of the fact that Premier Inn was completely ignorant of what's

happening? I share astonishment in this. Presumably, it would mean

that Premier Inn correction easily have put a guest in the next room?

Of course they comfortable the whole thing is bizarre as well as

extraordinary. Richmond Council, and by the way, a senior Liberal

Democrat minister is, Vince Cable, is a member of parliament for one

of the two Richmond constituent circumstance he too needs to

explain what on earth is going on. You talked about the fact you think

there are pretty strong rules in place, but the Ministry of Justice,

the Department of Local Government, it is not matter for them surely,

rather than a council to determine the rules. Is this not something

central Government should be very clear on? Of course, I was

reflecting when I heard that statement, the minister for justice

said this is something for the local authority. It isn't, there

are self-evidently in any civilised society, strict rules about whether,

particularly juveniles, should be sent into custody, and if they are,

the circumstances, the physical circumstances, the arrangement for

their supervision. By the way, I'm also very surprised that Richmond

Council apparently thought it was necessary to send this juvenile

into the Premier Inn, as an alternative to a proper, licensed,

secure establishment. Because in the last two or three years, the

number of places for under 18, under 18 prisoners in secure

establishments, that are being used, has dropped significantly. There

has been a great deal of slack in the system. At the moment

presumably there isn't slack in the criminal justice system per se,

what should be done about that? so much. That I was looking at the

Ministry of Justice website before I came out, they were boasting

about the fact they had 2,500 spare place, even up to what is called

the operational capacity, there is margin above that, because of the

building programme. That is the building programme that, frankly, I

got going, Ken Clarke has cancelled all of that programme that he can.

On this issue, Wii you started, the so-called rehabilitation revolution,

we are all in favour of improving rehabilitation of persistent

offenders, the glib statement about the prison reformers, comparing

community punishments and comparing the reoffending rate with those on

short-term sentences won't wash. It is baloney, 96% of those who go to

prison for a short-term sentence have been tried on a community

punishment and failed, and three quarters of them, have seven or

more sets of convictions. Now not only are we seeing at the moment

this spike, because all these cases are going through the courts. 5%

are on remand. Do you detect that is reflective of a mood in the

community which the Government has picked up on. A mood that people

are feeling themselves much tougher about this? Yes, look, prison is

the punishment of last resort. Where you have and have, as we had

a week ago, gangs taking the law into their own hands, becoming an

arky on the streets, and make - anarchy on the streets and the

state has to clamp down on that. That will cost money, not only for

all the people who may end up on jail, but all the appeals that may

be heard, how will that be paid, considering a 5% cut in the justice

system? - a 25% cut in the justice system? With great difficulty, and

the ministry's budget will bust. will bust? Yes. Over a year ago Ken

Clarke ludicrously volunteered much greater cuts in his budget that he

needed to. He was trying to show avenues very virile justice

minister. If you think it will bust, are you in favour, for example, of

judges handing out four-year sentences to two men for inciting a

riot that didn't take place, but inciting a riot on a social

network? In principle I'm in favour of that sentence. There have to be

tough sentence, I wasn't in court, that is the point the Prime

Minister made, I'm not going to judge the circumstances as if I had

been in court. I'm absolutely clear that people who xir, which is what

these - conspire, which is what these people sought to do, to

organise a riot, whether they do that by Facebook or out in the

street, must expect and deserve a very tough sentence. One of the

five principles of sentencing set out in the 2003 Criminal Justice

Act, as the chairman of the Magistrates' Association was

referring to today, is that of deterrent, you can't have this

anarchy, you have to deter people. But now there is a cost to that,

and the Government will be wholly failing in the first duty of any

Government, which is to keep the streets safe f it does not meet

these costs. Today's unemployment figures offer

little comfort to the Government in the wake of the riot, with a rise

of 38,000 in England and Wales in the three months to June, the

largest rise for more than two years. A figure the Chancellor

describes simply as "disappointing". The general secretary of the trade

The Female Eunuch son said the savage cuts have ended

opportunities in the public sector, and it is the private sector

struggling to withstand the economic downturn. With the

announcement of 11 more Enterprise Zones in England be the magic

bullet. Bradford Leeds, today's the small

rise in unemployment significants barely matters, the problem here is

entrenched. Years of depravation have left 46% of people here with

no qualifications at all, finding a job is tough. My job is to get work,

I'm doing college, that is the only way to do it is to get a trade in

college. Now the Government has stopped EMA, you have to pay for it

yourself, it is hard to pay for it. Figures today show youth

unemployment above 20%, the evidence is it is scarred, a spell

on the dole before the age of 23 can affect you throughout your

working life. There are permanent scaring effects from this temporary

unemployment shock. For example an individual who has a spell of

unemployment during youth, their wages will be lower, even up to 20

years later. So they can have wages when they are 42 which are 20%

lower than an individual who wasn't unemployed during their youth.

part of the solution, says the Government, is Enterprise Zones, 11

new ones were named today. In the zone you get 100% business rate

discount for five years. Simplified planning regulations and Government

support for superfast broadband. need the private sector to be the

engine of growth and jobs. The good news is the private sector has

created around half a million jobs over the last year, we need it to

go further and faster to make sure there are good will-paid jobs for

all our people. That is why Enterprise Zones matter. Here is

the kind of place it is supposed to work. Cobalt Light Systems a high-

tech start up in Oxford. It has 15 employee, mainly scientist, but is

about to go into production mode, which should mean more technician

jobs. One of the options for us, is to start to manufacture, as our

products gain acceptance, and I think the innovation centres and

the Enterprise Zones certainly will help us to do that. As we grow, for

example, we will have to move out of this innovation centre, there is

some Greenfield sites nearby, and certainly the Enterprise Zones will

encourage new build structures that we can potentially move into and

occupy in the future. But, as for many UK firms, the problem is the

absence of a trained and skilled work force. If you look at where

the Enterprise Zones are cited, there is a mismatch, it is always

some distance from the unemployment black spots. The one in London is

near Canary Wharf, the two in Birmingham are not exactly in the

worst hit areas, it is the same across the country. There is a

reason. Fundamentally I think these places have become unattractive for

businesss to locate in, want to set up. That is a very big challenge

these places face. We know the types of things that would improve

the economic boincy of these areas would be to improve their skills

profile. For example, areas like Stoke Hull, Birmingham, all areas

with an Enterprise Zone, have between 17-19% of their working age

people unemployed. Addressing these deep seated challenges will be more

important to the long-term economic growth potential of these cities.

The first Enterprise Zones were launched in the early 1980 today

they are widely believed to have failed. The relocated existing jobs

didn't create new one, and what stalled employment was sustained

recovery, which is what is not happening today. Schemes such as

the private enterprise scheme, they are incentivising the private

sector to create jobs, this won't have a quick impact on youth

unemployment. We need a direct scheme that quickly takes the

individuals out of unemployment and into work or education now. Because

if we don't do that the consequences for these individuals

will last a lifetime. And there is another problem revealed in today's

figures about migration, employment among British workers in red, falls

rapidly at the start of the crisis but only among foreign nationals in

yellow. But then, in the recovery, foreign workers have taken more

jobs than UK nationals, especially in the last two quarters. Here's

the view on that from people. are coming over working minimum

wage, we can do the same work for minimum wage, it is harder for an

English person, than a Polish person who can get a job straight

away. The real nightmare for politicians in the recovery, is we

get a recovery in private sector demand, but the work force can't

match it. With nearly a quarter of all adults economically inactive,

the skills base is being eroded, with one million unemployed it is

not catching up faster. There will be 250,000 school leavers with A-

level results tomorrow to add to that.

The private sector hasn't delivered the jobs bonanza fast enough to

deal with the numbers of 17-23- year-old who is are on the dole and

unskilled. They will left behind? There is a huge youth unemployment

challenge. If you look at the labour market over the last 12

months, we have seen four-times as many jobs created in the private

sector, as jobs lost in the public sector. Who are they going to?

of the frustrations is we haven't had up to now a scheme to match

unemployed British workers to vacancies. We have that now, that

is designed to solve that problem. You have the enterprise areas, but

not in the areas where there is all the unemployment, there is a

mismatch immediately? That is not right, if you look at the north-

east, areas particularly affected, an area where we can't to see a

bigger and stronger private sector, there are two Enterprise Zones, one

in the Tees Valley and one around Newcastle. That will serve as an

engine to help grow the private sector. You are not matching the

unemployment black spots with skills. If you don't put highly-

skilled training in areas where the factories are, the factories will

go to foreign nationals as we see on the graph? You talk about it

being far away, in London we have black spots in South-East London,

we have an Enterprise Zone around Canary Wharf, that is a short

commute away. In the north, black spots in Newcastle and an

Enterprise Zone around Newcastle, they are there, and close by and

accessible. The fact is the jobs aren't going to British national,

that graph was perfectly clear, as the recovery starts, foreign

nationals, not British nationals are getting the jobs. That is a

strange position for a Conservative Government? We recognise that

problem, one of the key goals of the providers who are going to be

delivering our work programme s to match individual job seekers to

find the right opportunities, to remote vait people who have been

out of work for long time, to fill the skills gap to make sure there

is the ready work force. filling of the skills gap is too

slow. It must be very disheartening for 17-23-year-olds, who haven't

got the skills now and see this whole wave of schoolchildren coming

out behind them. You atrify if you are unemployed, your skills become

less. That is right. If you look at young job seekers we have done two

things. Along with the work programme and the support we

provide through organisations like the Prince's Trust, our work

experience scheme is delivering those opportunities for precisely

those people. Joining us now are Martina Milburn, the chief

executive of the Prince's Trust, Laura Rennis, long-term unemployed

but now running her own business and from Newcastle, Andrew Hodgson,

the chief executive of a high-tech manufacturing company on north

Tyneside. Andrew Hodgson, you heard the minister say that the skills

are there in the right areas, you run a high-tech company, what's

your experience? For the last two years we have recruited about 200

people, all of very high skill. But I have to say that most of that has

been achieved by taking from companies that have been laying off.

I think we are reaching the point now where we are struggling to find

people with the right skills going forward. We tried to do things with

the local colleges and universities to address, that clearly, as you

have said, it is quite a slow process. In fact, you don't have

young engineers? We have some young engineers entering our population,

but over time we have seen, in the last ten years, the number of

people taking up science and technology-type degrees have

dramatically reduced and therefore the quality of people entering the

population at graduate level has been severely reduced. You have a

lot of unemployed people in your area? The north-east as the highest

level of unemployment, we have one of the lowest levels of skills,

clearly you can see the co-relation between those two numbers. That is

firsthand experience for a man trying to run a high-tech company?

This is precisely the reason why we have had 100,000 extra

apprenticeships. It is essential for a high-tech business to develop

the skills at college and university level that are right for

those companies. You heard manufacturing capability talked

about, we have to make sure where we have investment in manufacturing,

we have skills that are built amongst the existing unemployed

community, that they are remote vaited and we find the right

vacancies for them. .We Have to match the employers with employees.

This is where the Prince's Trust comes in, you are matching people

so far off the scale of skills, how does this help them? The way you

help those types of young people is with a lot of support. One of the

things we have been discussing with Government is the amount of support

and long-term support that those young people need, and it isn't

just about the cash, it is about the people and meantors that go

with them. How long were you unemployed? About four or five

years. What did that feel like being there, somebody else in the

film thought about it there you feel like you are atrifying on the

dole? You get a sense of demote vaigs, you become very defeatist

and depressed, you get very fed up, I know myself I didn't want to not

have a job. Is that the experience of a lot of your friends r a number

of your friends in the same position? At the time I do remember

a lot of my friends were seeking employment, but thankfully they are

all in employment now. What is your impression of the skills gap?

training do you think people need? There is a lot of attention for

people to achieve the core subjects, English, maths and science, there

are a lot of young people who are cast aside that don't achieve

highly in the main academic subjects. There are so many young

people if they were channelled in the same way to complete CDT, wood

shop, electricians courses and things like that, they wouldn't be

cast aside and put that element of doubt upon them that they are not

able to achieve anything. Is that your experience with young people

that they are not channelled in the right direction? I think so, with

the apprenticeship level it is set quite high, you need to have NVQ

level 2 or 3, and the group we are talking about haven't even got NVQ

level 1, just to finish, a young person told me a while ago they had

left their apprenticeship, because they were doing a plumbing course,

but they had to spend all the time doing the history of plumbing, I

don't want a plumber who knows the history of plumbing, I want someone

to mend my sink, that is the bit we have been working closely with

Government to engage those young people, but it takes longer. It is

practical experience and help. don't have the time, and they don't

have the time, Chris Grayling, surely there needs to be a lot more

done. A number of young people simply aren't even on the starting

ladder? One of the problems is many employers are reluctant to take on

someone straight from school or college. We are trying to do

through the work experience scheme is to get employers, we have now

thousands of young people going through the scheme, into the work

place for a couple of months to show employers what they can do.

that enough, Andrew Hodgson? Sorry. Is it enough now to say to young

people here is two months that you can go away and work out what you

want to do, and then you have to find your path, is that enough?

think it is very, very difficult, we hear a lot from various employer

groups about the employability of young people, I think it is

important that people understand that is an issue, maybe two months

does give people chance to folk cushion but clearly we need to be

working with people - focus, but clearly we need to working with

people to see they have the growth paths for the future. Do you think

things will get worse before they get better? I think things will get

better. We are looking through the Enterprise Zone in the north-east,

creating 3,000 low-carbon jobs, I think the number will be more like

10,000, there are a lot of opportunities for British companies

to focus. We have a pretty good skills base, not with standing

everything we have said today. We have a great infrastructure in the

north-east, I think we have started on a path to growth. Path to growth

there, a slow path to growth maybe, the danger is you won't do enough

to turn this around in time? These are difficult times economically

there are two things we have to do to try to build employment. One is

to create the kind of environment we are talking about through

Enterprise Zones, where businesses are growing and creating jobs. The

other is through the work being done by the work programme,

Jobcentre Plus, and the organisations like the Princess

trust, providing specialist support for the long-term unemployed, that

is what we are doing as well. In an interview today the Work and

Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, said Britain was the last

chance saloon when it came to the social crisis, that wasn't the

crisis but the crisis is coming. Most of the violent disorder took

place in inner cities, some more quiet pockets of England fell

victim to the rioting too and looting. We went to find out what

happened. This doesn't look like the place to contemplate the

problems of contemplery Britain. Gloucester is an easy going city on

the tourist circuit. Famous for the Cathedral and for once being the

unlikely home of mass murderer Fred West. On Tuesday last week its

image suddenly changed. Windows were smashed and shops looted.

Bristol was quieter, but the trouble across the west has the

police at full stretch. Gangs of youths took to the streets hurling

rocks and bottles at police, smashing windows and starting fires.

Firemen needed police protection against the rioters. 24 people have

been charged so far. I understand that most of them are white. Just

over a week on, the arrests have continued, cases go through court,

and the city has returned to its pleasant, normal tranquility, at

least on the surface. There is still a furious debate, why

Gloucester, why on earth should there be riots here? The riots have

led to soul searching with inevitably very different and

sometimes startling conclusions. Outside the Cathedral, I met two

ladies who worked there. Were you surprised this happened in

Gloucester? Not at all. You weren't surprised? Not at all. Do you not

feel safe in Gloucester? No, I don't. We were mugged in May in the

porch of the Cathedral. Just round the back here? Yes, I have

travelled extensively, go to London a lot, and feel more at threat in

Gloucester than any other city in the country. They haven't got

discipline, they haven't got discipline at home, and therefore,

they grow up with the idea that the world owes them a living, that the

gang culture takes over, nobody else matters, and I think it is

very, very sad. We have got to do something. The local MP was,

perhaps, naturally, concerned for the city's image. I'm not sure I

would call them riots. I think the police themselves would say. Police

taked with bottles and stones, buildings set on fire, firemen

frightened because they were being attacked themselves, that is a riot

surely? No. Police had to stop people coming into the centre here,

that is the way they talk about it? I think the word "riot" is too

strong. We had a very disappointing night with significant disturbances

and one empty building, set on fire in an upper room. That doesn't

really mean a riot. It is all about image for Gloucester, isn't it?

doesn't help Gloucester's reputation, we know it was a bad

night a lot of us were very cross about it. I had 700 e-mails from

people frustrated about such things happening here. We had a fire in

the college just over here. And then a large group forming up in

East Gate Street. The police took me on a tour of last week's trouble

spots. They did well in keeping rioters out of the city centre.

is here they managed to find things to grow at the police. People were

using bottles they brought from pubs to use as missiles. Assistant

Chief Constables argued that cutbacks could have been a factor.

If you look at what is happening across the whole of the country in

terms of cutbacks of services for a number of people, it is likely that

is going to have an impact on people feeling valued or being

listened to or getting the services they need. Some of that may have

played out on Tuesday evening in Gloucester, I think it is really

hard to say there was a direct impact. Certainly, what we would

all like to see are far more services for young people, far more

activities to engage young people and actually make them feel they

have a stake in society, that they have some hope of getting a job in

the future, some hope of getting a decent education and training, and

they have actually got their place in society, where they are earning

a living and they would do all of those things that the rest of us

would like to do. Gloucester may have the appearance of a well off

affluent city, but the figures show 9,000 people out of work across

Gloucestershire. This is one of the most deprived areas, with high

unemployment and most claiming benefits across the city. It is a

multiracial part of the city. It was here the rioters caused damage

after failing to reach smarters shops across the city.

There is place for young people to go here. Some of the time. The

Youth Peace Project was launched last week just after the riot. It

is funded through the Home Office, using money eased from criminals,

it is only open four hours a week. Back about five years ago there was

four youth centres all open sometimes four nights a week, for

up two to three hours at night, then they had summer provisions

during the summer holidays when young people are not at school and

college T has diminished ridiculously. The project is run by

Delroy Ellis, a one time drug dealer, now praises for community

work. He used to run another youth club but it closed last December

because he lost its funding. He claims there is a connection

between that loss and the riot? Told by people that nearly 1500

people that attended the meeting from the riots came from Star 66,

that is from the old club. I'm not saying I could have stopped it, I

would have put something in place if I knew it was a rioting night, I

would have opened up the youth club and say come on and talk about it.

How does he see the problems of young people in the area? 70% of

the kids I work with on daily basis they have no aspirations, they are

saying what is there out there. You have told me there weren't nothing

out there when you were 21, you are now 34, what is out there for me 21

years on, it is upsetting. If they feel no-one listens to us, we are

not valued, we haven't any hope for a different life, some of those

people will be engaging in criminal activity, not to condone it, but

understand what it is about. They see greed taking place in other

parts of our society, in all the different strata of our society,

they see people getting away with that, there is something here about

saying what about me, don't I get some as well. What happened here?

There seemed to be many reasons. Copy cat rioting, boredom, despair

at lack of opportunities, and just plain greed. The unemployment

figures revealed today the number of women out of work has hit levels

not seen in 23 years. How can females improve chances of

employment. A controversial new book by a senior research fellow at

the London School of Economics argues that the fairer sex is

missing a trick. Catherine Hakim argues that women have something

called "erotic capital" and they should use it to get on in the work

place. She cites Carla Bruni and Christine Lagarde as all luring

mistresses of "erotic capital", she also says in today's culture women

should be less squeamish about selling themselves. We think this

is what she might have in mind. # Because you're gorgeous

# I'd do anything for you # Because you're gorgeous

Managers I know you'll get me through

# You said my clothes were sexy # You tore away my shirt

# Because you're gorgeous # I'd do anything for you.

Margaret came to the leadership of the party, and primeship, by being

a sweet little blonde lady batting her eyelashes with big floppy bow,

how feminine can you get, you never ever saw her in trouser, even that

connoisseur of women, Alan Clarke said, that Margaret Thatcher had

good legs. It wasn't the whole The exponent of this theory, Dr

Catherine Hakim is here, along with the writer, Laurine Penny. You are

suggesting there is human capital, social capital, employment capital

and erotic capital. You seem to be saying there is a male sex deficit,

men don't get enough sex and therefore, women should exploit

that to get on. Really what I'm saying is men and women benefit

from erotic capital, in fact the research results show that men seem

to be getting a higher return on their erotic capital than women. So

maybe women have a little bit of catching up to do. What you are

suggesting is women should make the most of themselves? Men and women

should make the most of themselves. Like what? First of all it is

important to define erotic capital, and what my book says is that

social and physical attractiveness is important in all areas of life,

and gives people an advantage in all social situations. If you

understand erotic capital and the power it gives you in social

situations you will be more successful in the work place, in

friendships and the politics of private life. But what you are

seeing primarily dealing with women here, is erotic capital gets women

on, and women who are erotic in whatever way that is are more

likely to do well in the work place and should exploit it, and the

problems in the work place are nothing to do with discrimination

and sexism and whatever, it is just women don't come on properly?

don't say in any place in the book that it is not about sex

discrimination, that that doesn't exist. I'm simply saying that

erotic capital is one of the personal assets, for men, as well

as women, that has been overlooked in all writing so far, and we need

to now focus on. Reading this book, and listening to

this talk about erotic capital really makes me very sad, because,

yes, you should make the most of yourself, it sounds very obvious,

saying, this is the way the world is, you can't change it, women are

judged on their appearance, that is the way it is. I like to this isn't

the best of all worlds, we can't change it, but it just takes a bit

of imagination. 100 years ago Dr Hack wouldn't be able to go and

study for a PhD, stating the obvious in the book, it seems to

say that the world can never change and women can only be judged on

their appearance. That is not good enough, we need to say more to

women. You say it is an advantage to man, men have the most

advantages in terms of being more attractive, and that is the fault

of radical feminists, that is what you say? I don't say that, I simply

say the research evidence is that people with, who are socially and

physically attractive earn something like 10-20% more than

people who are unattractive. I'm simply saying that feminists have

been reluctant to accept that it can be an advantage and a benefit,

that's just being said this evening. If women have this erotic capital,

why don't they benefit from it then? I'm saying women haven't

benefited as much as begin are benefiting, there seems to be a bit

of catching up to do. In other words there is sex discrimination

going on here, but it is a kind not many people have recognised,

because nobody has wanted to recognise the importance of erotic

capital as a personal asset in all roles of life. It is not just the

labour market, it is friendships, private life, getting on, and

making life easier for you in all sorts of contexts. What Catherine

Hakim is also saying, is part of the whole story about erotic

capital is the sex industry. And that actually it would be a much

better way and much fairer way to run society, and women would be

advantaged, if they decriminalised sex workers and women were allowed

to charge for sex, because men understand that? Well, all this

talking about sex work and the sex industry, and erotic capital as a

way of measuring relationships, it is a very mercenary way of talking

about relationships between people. What really strikes me most about

this book in this argument is it is very, very inhuman. It is talking

about human relationships as a species of returns and marketing.

Isn't that the case, isn't it the case that people are quite

mercenary and calculating when it comes to relationships? No, I think

you can think a lot better things of people, people are also very

loving, it is possible to be decent to one another without seeing life

as a constant market and selling yourself, it is a sad view of the

world. Do you think you should sell yourself all the time? Economists

point out anything that is scarce has value, and attractiveness,

social and physical attractiveness, charm, being able to get on well

with people, as well as beauty, as well as sex appeal, all of these

things have scarcity value and therefore, as a result. You believe

women should be allowed to sell themselves for sex without any

criminality and men should be encouraged to buy, that because

that is what women should pride themselves in that? I didn't say

that, my book says explicitly that the sex industry should be neither